Way of escape?

[Zhantos]

I have watched the podcast and tried to scoop up info about the Shadow Warrior. I understand that you can go 2 paths, the path of full out bow or bow and some melee. The question I have about the class is: Do we have ways to escape our targets? Such as traps or stuns or freezing abilities?

[Maloka]

We don't know much about the SW yet, actually we only know its RDPS.

[sm|te]

Really no way to tell amigo. Trust me, we all are asking the same question, but the SW has yet to be played in beta to my knowledge.

[Zhantos]

Alright, thanks for the responses. I'm not sure what faction my friends want to play but I've pretty much decided: Order = Shadow Warrior and then Destruction: Zealot or Disciple

[LastHeretic]

im hoping we wont get the magical ice trap style stoppers. but hopefully more along the lines of "cover fire" style which forces the enemy to either back off or slow down their approach.

[Nightsoldier]

I know theyl get sprint along with everyone else. other then that i cant really say.

[Foofmonger]

This is an assumption, but I think Shadow Warriors will have a ton of kiting options.

Probably not "traps" and such, but they will have options to get away.

[Zzulu]

A fairly standard "crippling arrow" probably. Something to temporarily slow down your opponent while you get some distance.

[Aqe]

No escape just death!! :rolleyes:

[c_vadnais]

This is an assumption, but I think Shadow Warriors will have a ton of kiting options.

Probably not "traps" and such, but they will have options to get away.

agreed,

while I dont believe (and hope we dont) get traps, SW will most likely have a wide array of movement imparing and snare affects both melee and ranged based.

[ChosenOne]

It is my hope that Shadow Warrior is the class slated for information in the next newsletter instead of white lions. If it is then we will finally know more about it. If they give us information on a class that they havnt even officially released yet then that will be a definate let down.

[Therion-Taali]

Well first i do not think that SW will have a ton of stun or movement impairing effects. That would go against what mythic is trying to do. They might have maybe one or two, but on long cool downs.

Also Shadow Warriors are being played in beta. Shadow warriors were put into this beta.

[ChosenOne]

Well first i do not think that SW will have a ton of stun or movement impairing effects. That would go against what mythic is trying to do. They might have maybe one or two, but on long cool downs.

Also Shadow Warriors are being played in beta. Shadow warriors were put into this beta.

You mean the next beta phase. This one is Dark Elves. Correct?

[Therion-Taali]

You mean the next beta phase. This one is Dark Elves. Correct?

Correct my mistake. =)

[ChosenOne]

Correct my mistake. =)

No prob, thought perhaps they changed how it was going to be done or already moved on to the high elves without a blackguard release. Wouldnt that be something if they did that? :lol:

[Ashanor]

One ranged snare, one melee snare, and a melee root would be good option imo.

A natural 5% run speed increase would be nice as well.

[ChosenOne]

One ranged snare, one melee snare, and a melee root would be good option imo.

A natural 5% run speed increase would be nice as well.

If you are giving them snares then I am not sure run speed is a good thing to give them as well.

[c_vadnais]

If you are giving them snares then I am not sure run speed is a good thing to give them as well.

Josh said in an interview that they wont give permanent stat buffs, so I dont think they'll give a permanent run speed increase anyway.

[thestarheart]

Also have to wonder if the bow and melee are two separate masteries...what is the third? Every class is supposed to have three trees correct?

[Stick&Move]

Also have to wonder if the bow and melee are two separate masteries...what is the third? Every class is supposed to have three trees correct?

Shadow magic or maybe some scout type abilities (snares, tracking, camoflage).

Also I'd love for the shadow warrior to get some sort of major leap back (similar to the witch elf in the video) but don't consider it likely as, given the ranged power of the SW, it could be a game breaker. Unless it were on a serious timer, sort of a one shot/hour skill.

[sanderke]

one melee snare, and a melee root would be good option imo.
Melee snare/root abilities on a ranged class never work well, ever.
Why? because to use them you have to be right where you don't want to be, at which point it's to late anyway.

Personally I prefer a sprint ability of some sort.

As for the masteries, it'll probably be Ranged, Melee and Utility.
Utility focusing on things like ambushing (mentioned in the podcast) though improving concealment times/decreasing detection, implementing or improving the damage bonus on the attack that breaks concealment, or adding attacks that can only be used when concealed.

To clarify: I'm thinking of concealment like something of a stealth ability that breaks on moving, like the certain elf racial from the game that shall not be mentioned, but then implemented as a core carreer mechanic rather then a gimmick.

[c_vadnais]

Melee snare/root abilities on a ranged class never work well, ever.
Why? because to use them you have to be right where you don't want to be, at which point it's to late anyway.

Personally I prefer a sprint ability of some sort.

As for the masteries, it'll probably be Ranged, Melee and Utility.
Utility focusing on things like ambushing (mentioned in the podcast) though improving concealment times/decreasing detection, implementing or improving the damage bonus on the attack that breaks concealment, or adding attacks that can only be used when concealed.

To clarify: I'm thinking of concealment like something of a stealth ability that breaks on moving, like the certain elf racial from the game that shall not be mentioned, but then implemented as a core carreer mechanic rather then a gimmick.

Mythic has already said no stealth...at all... If anything it will probably be a way to improve upon skills we already have. We can only guess right now, but hopefully after the next newsletter some light will be shed on it. Personally I think that a melee tree and a ranged tree cover anything the shadow warrior would need so I personally can't think of anything that a 3rd would have unless Mythic is keeping a VERY LARGE set of details from us about the Shadow Warrior.

[Kosme]

Josh said in an interview that they wont give permanent stat buffs, so I dont think they'll give a permanent run speed increase anyway.

What about tactics?? a +10% run speed doesn't sound game breaking.

Camouflage is possible imo, its not stealth. Being able to turn invisible while not moving sounds good if you can be hit by AoEs and if ppople nearby can see you.

[c_vadnais]

What about tactics?? a +10% run speed doesn't sound game breaking.

you have to take into account that everyone in the game will have a sprint ability also, wether you can use it like this I dont know. However, if they want to balance the game out as much as possible, giving a class good snares AND a run speed increase will end up being a kite-fest. It will be more than enough already to have ranged/melee snares with the added ability to sprint away and start shooting again.

Edit: Mythic has stated many times, no invisibility. Its a mechanic that is far too troublesome to balance since someone will always complain about how unfair it is, and this is coming from someone who played 3 rogues to end game on WoW and i'm hoping they dont put in stealth lol

[Javelin]

I hate wow stealth!! one minute your just standing there, minding your own business, and before you can react you get stun-locked by a little invisible guy and dies... thats all pvp is in wow! do some skills so that your opponent can't do anything and then kill him without any resistance... boring as hell!

but some camoflauge feature would be nice for shadow warriors, or some sneak thing, not being invisible but maybe go into a crouch or a prone so you are harder to spot in places with lots of high grass, bushes etc,,:D

[aegir]

id love them to have some kind of walk between worlds/ walk through shadow spell, so they would just vanish and pop up 10 yards away, doesnt seem too OP concidering they need to be in a specific range to shoot..

[sanderke]

Mythic has already said no stealth...at all....
Right, so stealth was a bad description.

However, a spell that makes you harder to spot or hides you (as long as you stay still) would sound perfect for shadow warriors.
It's not some overpowered form of stealth as you can't move without breaking the effect, but it allows you to ambush enemies.

Fact: ambush was expressly mentioned in the SW podcast in the list of 'path 2' (melee).

How would mythic implement ambushing without some sort of tool that allows you to surprise the enemy?

Therefor I believe that ambushing techniques will be the defining feature of shadow warriors and the most logical path of improvement for the third tree.
You'd get the standard ranged and melee trees, and a third utility tree that contains improvements to your ambushing along the following lines:
- how easily others spot you
- how long you can hide
- skills that can only be used when hidden (specialist ambush abilities)
- give a bonus or increase a bonus that applies additional damage to the attack that breaks your concealment

[c_vadnais]

While the definition of ambush my imply concealment. Being an archer class, how would you propose someone can detect you when they get close if you're going to be plugging them with your bow? How can you balance giving a class a concealment ability when their target wont be close enough to spot them once they leave that concealment for the barrage of arrows?

Its safe to speculate that remaining concealed for the purpose of ambushing like a melee class wont happen since the podcast stated that you WILL be using your bow mainly. Going "melee" spec with your shadow warrior just means you wont be kiting quite as much as a bow spec'd SW. I could only see any kind of concealment being designed for a melee DPSer that will be easier spotted when the target is close.

If you give a concealment to someone that's a ranged DPSer, even if you try to balance it by making it possible to see through it from a distance (without any buffs, etc) then the concealment isn't worth the AP you'd be spending. When I think of "ambush" as they talk about it, I think of hit-and-run tactics. I think of moving on them quickly using cover and hitting them, then withdrawing and repeating the process.

I said "stealth" for a reason, they've stated that invisibility and stealth are mechanics that are hard to balance and they're avoiding them. If you really want to argue that then find me something that states that they are working on mechanics such as you describe, because i haven't found anything supporting any kind of invisibilty.

Edit: I understand the appeal of a stealth ability, and im not denying that it would be neat. However, you have to keep in mind that while it may seem balanced, having 1 class in the entire game that can use stealth isn't balanced at all. We know the other race and classes, none of them have stealth, so why should they give any kind of invisibility/stealth option to just one class out of the other 23 classes? If one race gets a stealth class, then by balance all the others should get one too, but they arent.

[sanderke]

When I think of "ambush" as they talk about it, I think of hit-and-run tactics. I think of moving on them quickly using cover and hitting them, then withdrawing and repeating the process.
And how would you think mythic would implement such a thing?
Hit and Run tactics generally rely on a few key elements:
1 high speed
2 element of surprise
3 burst damage

While I'm sure they could get point 3 covered easily enough, and point 2 is covered simply by being smart and using tactics I wonder how would they implement point 1 though?
Shadow warriors would have to have a faster runspeed then most others, otherwise your Hit and Run turns into Hit, Hit, Hit, Hit.
If shadow warriors can't get away from their enemy (increase the distance between them) then running offers you no advantage other then moving the fight to a different place.

Fact is, a higher runspeed would be very imbalanced as it could easily allow for indefinite kiting.

Another option for Hit and Run would be to allow shadow warriors to fire on the move with some sort of penalty.
For example, they could get a -50% hit chance when firing on the move, again this would allow for indefinite kiting, it would just take twice as long to kill someone.

How would you propose they make Hit and Run work without making it overpowered?

[Delolith]

And how would you think mythic would implement such a thing?
Hit and Run tactics generally rely on a few key elements:
1 high speed
2 element of surprise
3 burst damage

While I'm sure they could get point 3 covered easily enough, and point 2 is covered simply by being smart and using tactics I wonder how would they implement point 1 though?
Shadow warriors would have to have a faster runspeed then most others, otherwise your Hit and Run turns into Hit, Hit, Hit, Hit.
If shadow warriors can't get away from their enemy (increase the distance between them) then running offers you no advantage other then moving the fight to a different place.

Fact is, a higher runspeed would be very imbalanced as it could easily allow for indefinite kiting.

Another option for Hit and Run would be to allow shadow warriors to fire on the move with some sort of penalty.
For example, they could get a -50% hit chance when firing on the move, again this would allow for indefinite kiting, it would just take twice as long to kill someone.

How would you propose they make Hit and Run work without making it overpowered?

I understand your points but I think you need to start thinking in a different context about WAR PvP. First, it is a group/team effort. Second, none is a squishy and that includes you too. Third, ambush is a rather peculiar wording in general in the context of such a game. Let me try to be more detailed of what I am trying to say:

Try not to think what will happen if the said class starts running on me...but wait I need distance to keep me alive and take him down. You WILL have some CC abilities like snares maybe root that will last for a few seconds. That does not mean by any chance that you will manage to keep the melee classes away from you indefinetelly. It won't happen...and even more if those melee classes belong to the melee DPS archetype. They are your nemesis and they will close the gap between you cause they have the tools for it. They will start pounding on you but that doesn't mean you will die in a blink of an eye. You are NOT a squishy...you will not die before 12-15 seconds pass even by those melee DPSers...that means you will have time to plan fast and maybe turn the tide of the battle. You will have the abilities to survive...

But of course survival is a strange word...you don't need to survive...you need to actually kill your opponent...and as a ranged DPS you will be good at it. However, if you are faced by a melee DPSer your best friend is....well your group's tank. As I said above this is a group/team effort game. You will have the abilities to slow down for a small period the melee DPSer....till your tank actually do his job and protect you. And then you will do your job which is NOT to kill the melee DPSer for sure. Think of it as a contribution to a group effort.

Second, burst DPS. There will be burst DPS...but it is nothing like you have it in your mind I think. You will not kill anyone in under 12 seconds...even if that guy is just sitting like a duck in front of you. And the same goes for you of course. The classes are far more resilient than in other games (even the lightly armored ones). So the phrase Burst DPS has a different meaning in this game.

Third, ambush. Well think of it like you intervene in a battle and among the chaos the people do not understand that they are not just fighting a tank a healer and a caster...but also a shadow warrior that they have not yet spoted. If you are alone do not expect to ambush someone. Maybe you will gain like 2-3 seconds before he understands that he is under attack and spots you (which is an average reaction time). You will not gain a lot by those 2 seconds thinking that the fights last quite long. So ambush is not a gimmick that gives you that much of an edge like in other games. There are games that whoever gets the jump wins. WAR is created so that you can actually have time to react to this.

Finally, so all I am saying is against the lore of Shadow warriors that are lone warriors that roam around and kill villages of druchii and do not depend on anyone else except their strength. Well, I think you need to reconsider that picture and actually try to think how this class will be implement/work in the context and basics that this RvR game introduces (which I mentioned above).

Delolith

[c_vadnais]

And how would you think mythic would implement such a thing?
Hit and Run tactics generally rely on a few key elements:
1 high speed
2 element of surprise
3 burst damage

While I'm sure they could get point 3 covered easily enough, and point 2 is covered simply by being smart and using tactics I wonder how would they implement point 1 though?
Shadow warriors would have to have a faster runspeed then most others, otherwise your Hit and Run turns into Hit, Hit, Hit, Hit.
If shadow warriors can't get away from their enemy (increase the distance between them) then running offers you no advantage other then moving the fight to a different place.

Fact is, a higher runspeed would be very imbalanced as it could easily allow for indefinite kiting.

Another option for Hit and Run would be to allow shadow warriors to fire on the move with some sort of penalty.
For example, they could get a -50% hit chance when firing on the move, again this would allow for indefinite kiting, it would just take twice as long to kill someone.

How would you propose they make Hit and Run work without making it overpowered?

Firstly, you're forgetting that every class will have a sprint ability, and the speed of that ability will adjust according to your class, (because you obviously can't sprint far if you're in plate in comparison to someone in leather/chainmail armor) So the "Hit and run turns into hit hit hit hit" isn't quite right. Kiting here will not be like it is in other games where you remain at a distance indefinately, but you will be able to at a certain extent, and better than those people who go with a "shoot/stab" build.

At the end of the fight, chances are you'll end up in melee and either trying to finish them off or get some kind of melee snare off to get more distance (keep in mind melee will also have snares and movement imparing affects).

Also, Delolith is right, chances are when you RvR you're going to be doing it with a group of people you know (which im also guilty of forgetting a bit :rolleyes:), and someone will be a melee fighter, who can keep you protected from other melee, allowing you to simply plug them full of arrows.

[Shadow_Warrior]

Screw escape, I wanna go full melee spec on my shadow warrior... I'm gonna play him like a suicidal maniac. Yeah I'll die a lot, but it should be fun.

[sanderke]

Screw escape, I wanna go full melee spec on my shadow warrior... I'm gonna play him like a suicidal maniac. Yeah I'll die a lot, but it should be fun.
You might want to consider a witchhunter:cool:

[c_vadnais]

You might want to consider a witchhunter:cool:

agreed...shadow warrior is in no way designed to be "in the fray" :rolleyes:

[Shadow_Warrior]

agreed...shadow warrior is in no way designed to be "in the fray" :rolleyes:


That's why it will be so fun!

[c_vadnais]

That's why it will be so fun!

fine, go die if you wish...i'll shoot em in the face with my arrows :P

[Lord Tareq]

Escape mechanic:
When suffering a critical hit you break a nail, causing your character to either faint and considered dead by his enemies for 30 seconds, or greatly increases his movement speed whilst moving frantically with his arms for 30 seconds, or he become frenzied and attack twice as fast and with double damage for 30 seconds.:-P

[Delolith]

Escape mechanic:
When suffering a critical hit you break a nail, causing your character to either faint and considered dead by his enemies for 30 seconds, or greatly increases his movement speed whilst moving frantically with his arms for 30 seconds, or he become frenzied and attack twice as fast and with double damage for 30 seconds.:-P

I doubt that picture applies to a Shadow warrior:) Maybe for another elf...a common elf... maybe but not a Shadow Warrior. And btw if that is the picture of a common elf that is embeded in your mind then I am sure a common Dark elf (cause they do exist in some extent) has the picture of a maggot or a worm that does not dare to raise his voice or head above the height of his pelvis to look the more fortunate for the dark elven community dark elves :-P.

Delolith

[Montz]

i would like sumthing like a unlimited sprint ability that gives ***dmg for each ***sec active....

[Gemini]

i would like sumthing like a unlimited sprint ability that gives ***dmg for each ***sec active....

What would be causing the damage though? I could see that for a Bright Wizard or something, they get faster but set themselves on fire, but I don't really see it for a Shadow Warrior.