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Xurré
01-14-2008, 08:06 AM
There has been a fair amount of speculation lately that Mythic might not be doing the Witch Elf justice in their implementation of the class, that she’ll play more like a rogue without stealth (and without much in the way of clothes) than like the frenzied zealot, the walking blender of death, that she is.

Whether this will be true or not I cannot say, and neither can anyone else (who can talk about it here). So instead of speculating on that I’ll instead tell you how I think the class should function, trying to keep in mind what little we know so far.

The basis of this is the Maibd’s Dance of Death. The idea here is combining agility, movement and swordplay, weaving together a ballet of destruction around the target. The Witch Elf would be ever moving, her hands never standing still to deal deadly wounds to the enemy, never quite making it obvious where she’s moving next. And as her frenzy, her bloodlust, builds so does the beat of the dance and the deadliness of her strikes, giving her to ever more daring, and possibly dangerous, moves.

I’ve broken the following into sections each looking at various aspects of this lethal lambada.


Death of a Thousand Cuts

Most classes seem to do damage with the philosophy “the harder you hit it, the quicker it dies”. But the Witch Elf, I feel, should be different. Each of the Witch Elf’s attacks should only do relatively minor damage, but these attacks should be very quick and very quickly follow one another, making the above for them “the more you hit it, the quicker it dies”.

Her swords should be in constant movement. Any time that she’s holding them still in one place is a moment she’s not using them to attack and thus a moment wasted. If ever the players find themselves unable to attack because all the attacks they have are still recharging or such then the attacks aren’t fast enough; there should never be a moment, as long as she’s still standing, when she’s unable to attack at least with something. And there should equally never be a moment where a player is encouraged to forego attacking in favour of waiting for another attack (if players hold off attacking with an ability they have available because they want to use another ability that’s still recharging and using the first means they won’t be able to use the second even after it recharged then something has failed in the design).

Similarly, abilities that become available with higher levels of frenzy should prefer to increase speed, increase the number of attacks over providing single heavy-hitting attacks. For instance, give them abilities which they can use in between others or give them a single ability which attacks several times real quick (the end effect will be the same of having one ability which does a large amount of damage, but the flavour is changed; I’d much rather see five numbers around “100” float above the enemy than one number around “500”).

The Witch Elf should mesmerize her enemies with the whirling of her blades and the speed of her attacks. Thus, dealing death by a thousand small cuts instead of a few large ones.


Waltz of the Witch

It is, however, not just the hands of the Witch which continue to move, the Witch herself should also continually on the move, running circles around her opponent as she stabs them, latterly from all sides. I’d want the Order players to swear “stand still you cursed witch!”

One way in which to do this is through the positional attacks. One way to encourage this behaviour in the player is by making it so that when employing a straight-up positional attack then you can’t use any positional attacks from that direction again until you’ve made a positional attack from another direction. This way you’d stab an enemy from the front and then have to flit quickly to their side to stab them there (being able to stab them from the front again when they turn or continue on to their back). This is somewhat tricky in that Witches need to be able to move quickly enough around enemies before they have a chance to react and turn (so this is assuming no auto-facing), but note that it’s only positional attacks and she’d also always have numerous non-positional attacks.

Another way is to give the Witch Elf attacks which reposition her around the enemy. Attack them while standing in front of them, but actually turn to their side and stab them there (staying there and not returning to their front; this isn’t just a fancy animation, it’s supposed to actually re-position them). This would also be great in conjunction with the positional attacks mentioned above. And if you have one for clockwise and one for counter-clockwise (both, perhaps, which have the same startup animation) then you’d be able to easily confuse the enemy.


Boiling Blood

Frenzy, too, should tie into making the witch seem continually moving, continually busy. Not only should higher frenzy unlock abilities that do more damage and such, but frenzy itself should tie in to the Witch’s lightning quick attacks. Perhaps the higher the frenzy the quicker the attack rate, making her more deadly even without using her abilities, and perhaps frenzy could also make the Witch move faster, quicker to reach new victims and able to spin circles around the enemy all the quicker (allowing her to get in more positional attacks and such).

But another thing I would consider doing would be to make it so that the longer you stand in one place, the less you move around, the quicker frenzy depletes again. This is based on the idea that frenzy is a bar instead of a set of points, which I’m not sure of at all (though points have to disappear sometime too so one could decrease the time that takes). This would encourage players to keep moving even if they don’t succeed in getting positional attacks in.


Death from Above

I don’t have a problem with jumping at all and think, in fact, that it can serve to enhance the image of the Witch Elf being constantly on the move and a ball of manic fury. I can almost see those complaints people have with WoW PvP of people always jumping all over the place as working in favour of the Witch Elf as an exaggeration of her manic behaviour. Even outside of combat jumping could be faster than running (though perhaps depleting stamina or such) to encourage players jumping around.

Inside combat it could be used as a way again to change position. I could see jumps to the side of the enemy or even jumps over them, turning around to attack them in the back. Make them fast enough and combine them with the positional attacks above and the enemy will never really know where the next attack is coming from even in a one-on-one fight. Of course you should only be able to use this in melee combat and not be able to use it as a quick way to bypass tanks, though I can see melee classes needing some ability to be able to deal with tanks too.

Of course jumps would also be used to get into combat. As I understand it every melee damage class has ways to close the gap between them and their target, and for the Witch Elf that’s leaping at them with daggers drawn. I can even see such jump charges as doing extra damage on the first hit, though it’d probably be better to have some demoralizing effect on the enemy (I’d like Witch Elves to stay away from the high-damage single hits). I can also see such an ability that can only be used when in melee with a target other than the one you’re jumping to; sort of a way to deal with multiple targets at once or when changing priorities mid-fight (or even when escaping from one target in favour of another, like jumping away from the tank to get to the ranged class). Might leave a slight stun on the one you’re leaving (as I imagine launching yourself off of their face) and could be a neat way to jump from enemy to enemy to quickly bridge a gap to the target you’re after.

Then there are things like Agile Escape. Personally I’d probably rename that and put a few conditions on it. For one, an ability like that should only be usable from melee. And I can also see it giving you some sort of self-taunt; where for a short period every target except the one you leapt away from you’d do less damage to. I’m sure players will still use it to escape, but from the Witch Elf’s view it’d be more of a way to play with the enemy; jump out of their reach before jumping in for another attack. If timed right this could be used to avoid heavy blows for example (“Oh, I can see him playing the ‘squash witch like a tiny bug’ animation, better clear this space for a moment”).


It’s Only a Flesh Wound

The army book has a two-paragraph story about a guy who’s counting his blessings since he got away from a Witch Elf with only a single small scratch. Of course the Witch used blades coated with the Black Lotus poison and the fool human died a slow, agonizing death.

Of course in the game too the Witch Elf should have access to poison with it allowing for all kinds of poisons with a variety of debilitating effects and damage-over-time. In this I’d much rather see a continuous stream of ‘1’s than the occasional blip of “20” or so over the enemy’s head. I want it to literally inverse-rain damage numbers over their head, even if those numbers are all pretty small (together they’d add up though). Let other classes have the big, single numbers and give Witches the insane amount of small ones.

However, I also feel that the Witch should be spending her time attacking and not applying poison to her weapons. As such I think the single coating of poison which stays on the blade, stays in effect, until another one is applied is much preferable over the poison which only affects the next attack or such. There would be no reason for a Witch to not use poisoned attacks and as such in the latter case she’d almost spend more time coating her weapons than sticking it them in the fleshy parts of her dance partner. Though I can also see one-off “poison attacks”, where the coating and the stabbing are one, abstracting away from applying the coating really. This seems a bit of a cop-out as it’d make poison little more than a normal attack with a negative status effect (as opposed to a gameplay mechanic), but it’d work.

Overall, poison should be a way to make the Witch Elf more deadly, another means for making up for her not having any real big hits (and instead a number of small ones). And it’d be a way to affect the enemy with something other than damage (making them slower, making their attacks weaker, making them miss more often, acids perhaps for eating through their armor value, etc).


Spoon Full of Sugar

Then there are the ‘elixirs’ (still “blood laced with drugs” for me :p). I think these too should serve to make the Witch Elf faster, make her more mobile, and make her more deadly without directly increasing her damage. Where her poison is debufs her elixirs are bufs (where of course elixirs have drawbacks too to make the choice more meaningful). I can even see elixirs with non-combat effects such as those that let her see better in the dark or stay underwater longer (provided there’s underwater swimming, which I am to understand there is not).

Primarily I‘d like to see elixirs which speed up the rate of her attacks by decreasing the recharge time, decreasing the time between attacks, speeding up the speed of attacks, etc. I’d like to see elixirs that increase her movement speed, the speed of her jumps, etc. I’d like to see elixirs which increase the speed at which her frenzy builds (again I prefer a frenzy bar over frenzy points since it gives you more flexibility), decrease the frenzy cost of abilities, or increase the time it takes for frenzy to fade.

I’m not certain about elixirs which give you a straight-up increase to your damage since that just seems decidedly boring. I’m particularly not sure about ones you can only use out of combat since I’d think the charge leaps would already be for that. I can however see some particularly potent elixirs you can only use out of combat so that you have to decide ahead of time whether you want that buff in battle or not. In fact, I’d almost say that if most elixirs only work outside of battle (and remain until you’re out of battle again) then you have to decide ahead of time what you’ll need most, possibly using the escape leap to get out again and pick another elixir.


Conclusion

All-in-all I think what I’ve described above would allow Witch Elves to pick-and-choose their targets, give them the rogue-ish positional attacks and ‘sneak’ attacks (not from invisibility but because you’re closing the distance quickly and thus surprising them). Once in battle they’d be a flurry of poisonous blades, encouraged to stay constantly on the move and constantly catching their enemy off-guard. Someone who fights a Witch Elf will have to work to keep her in front of them. And either way it’ll be impossible to miss a Witch Elf in action; just look for the most amount of movement on the battlefield. ;)

So is there any point to this? I doubt that Mythic’ll change Witch Elves to work anywhere near what I describe above if they aren’t already fairly close. But perhaps they’ll read this, agree, and tweak some abilities to be closer to this. Perhaps it’ll give them some ideas for other abilities (like the attacks which also move you around your enemy).

At the very least though it might give some hope that what they’ve released so far could work and still maintain the flavour of the Witch Elf.


- Xurré

Rakuh
01-14-2008, 09:05 AM
Lol you deserve some kinda reward for writing this.

From what we've seen so far, I think they captured it pretty good. Building up frenzy points makes sence, the more they fight, the more excited they get about being allowed to serve their god khaine on the battlefield. So does these opening moves we've seen, going into a not so through thought frenzy when seeing her next victim.

also about the "constant moving" and such you're talking about, in the class description they say that "the way to take down bigger targets is to keep dodging.....and so on" so it does sound like she will be doing som quick moving.

I know these may sound like really weak examples to some but in my opinion the way we've seen her so far really makes sence. We've heard nothing about "I gotta get behind you to backstab you like some thief" nono, we've only heard "I gotta get close to him so i can please my god"

^^: Hope I made at least a little sence

Malal
01-14-2008, 09:49 AM
Xurre, you described how my rogue worked :) Or at least tried to work, combat sword rogues had a bit of lack of burst dps for clothies but i never struggled with warriors or silly bears.

If Mythic listen it will just make my life harder :( as then i really wont know what to pick(im still currently torn between sorceress and magus, man gief beta key plx!).

Indeed constant movement in battle and just a blur of death coming towards you. I hope theres a whole range of poisons for snaring, morale loss, casting time increases et al and each blade having a different poison would be a nice addition.
Also a ability which strikes all enemies in melee range (using her frenzy ability) would help to emphasis her 'Ball of manic fury side'.
Mayb also add some kind of 'Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique' or other martial arts stuff, i know its usually about the blades and the slicing but im sure a martial cult would have some kind of unarmed training just incase they were disarmed. And using kyusho jutsu( or presure points) based martial art would fit into the 'im going to disable you then slowly torture/kill you' mentality of the WE.

Now heres a question do you think melee dps are a bit op?
Im not sure if im misquoting somthing but im sure ive seen it said that

Tanks>Mdps
Rdps>Tanks
Mdps>Support
Mdps>Rdps
Support>Rdps

Rakuh
01-14-2008, 10:02 AM
actually the whole martial arts idea goes a little against on how I imagine the Witch elves. When they enter battle and goes into a frenzy I wouldn't believe they would have enough self control to do anything that requires as much self control as Martial arts, and on top of that, stuff such as making hearts explode from the inside is not bloody enough for Khaine I think ^^

Zunjin
01-14-2008, 01:10 PM
They are crazed, not berserkers. They are aswell dark elves and devotes to Khaine. Martial arts fit them perfeckt. Good writing Xurre.

Xurré
01-14-2008, 01:33 PM
Mayb also add some kind of 'Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique' or other martial arts stuff, i know its usually about the blades and the slicing but im sure a martial cult would have some kind of unarmed training just incase they were disarmed.
I'd think Witch Elves would more go for the "Single Point of my Blade Piercing Heart Technique". ;)

Seriously though, I can see them having some unarmed combat training. In fact, the armybook has the following skills for disciples of Khaine (Assassins and Witch Elves):

Dance of Doom
The sinuous Dance of Doom can enthral even the most steely disciplined Swordmaster and be used to dodge the fastest shot or blow.

Touch of Death
The Adepts of Death school the servants of Khaine to learn the points on a body which kill instantly.

Hand of Khaine
Tracing a complex pattern in the air, the Dark Elf entrances their victim, leaving him vulnerable and open to atack.

Cry of War
By screeching one of the seventeen secret names of Khaine, the warrior freezes enemies with horror.
It wouldn't surprise me if Witches get those too in various forms; after all we've got three skill paths (some twenty skills as I understand it, plus a variety of morale abilities and tactics) to fill out. ;)


Now heres a question do you think melee dps are a bit op?
Im not sure if im misquoting somthing but im sure ive seen it said that

Tanks>Mdps
Rdps>Tanks
Mdps>Support
Mdps>Rdps
Support>Rdps
I think all classes could be considered "overpowered" in the right situation (and with the right specs). Is a ranged class overpowered because they can do massive damage without even needing to get close (and, thus, have it so that the majority of classes can't harm them at all)? As I understand it the list is more tank>mdps>rdps>tank with support being a bit of a wildcard; support is good in a group (making the group better), but in return also has to fear from more (relying on the group to stay safe).

Whether a class is overpowered or not in the end depends mostly on the exact abilities.


- Xurré

Tlear
01-14-2008, 02:29 PM
Please no pressure points! They make no sense and don't work in RL and make less sense against someone encased in the steel armor (like a dwarf or human WAR)

Biggest problem with making units like WEs believable is that it is hard to imagine an un-armored unit standing up to an enemy that is armored. I think what will end up happening is that WEs will be the ultimate ranged dps counter, extremely weak vs tanks and somewhat weak against other more heavily armored melee dps (Hammerer, White Lion) but brutally effective in disposing Archmages, BWs, Engineers. To help with that WEs need alot abilities to negate CC and break though things like tank taunt. Give them speed boost morale abilities, silence, interupts, attacks that do good damage vs unarmored targets, something that will help them ignore taunt (focused mind balha blah).

Problem with many attacks is that tank like Ironbreaker will then be able to get huge amount of reactionals while guarding WEs target (compared to Marauder attacking same target).

shotgunbadger
01-14-2008, 05:35 PM
While I admire how much work ya put into this, I have to disagree.

I feel that Witch Elves, in the scale of large scale battles, would be more focused on spilling as much blood as they can, as fast as they can, so they can move on to the next victem. To me, this means more of whittling down the target's defences and then unleashing a string of blows to arteries and such to produce massive, bloody, damage in only a few bursts.

Now, aside from the number and power of blows, I do agree with you that a WE should constantly be on the move, making some poor Archmage yell "Stand still damn you!" as he tries to lock a spell on her.

Lucrece
01-14-2008, 05:47 PM
While creative, I don't think the mechanics are practical for competitive RvR.

Dukha
01-14-2008, 06:52 PM
While creative, I don't think the mechanics are practical for competitive RvR.

I had a similar thought when reading the whole "small numbers more often" thing. I straight of though burst damage versus sustained damage and for competitive player versus player battles you would really like access to tactical bursts of damage in order to counter healing and/or finnish the fight. Sustained damage may well be just as high in the end but since it's much more predictable it's also easier to counter.

HOWEVER!

Theres nothing to say that the smaller but faster attacks of the Witch Elf needs to be less "bursty" so to speak. You could just break up those huge blocks of damage into smaller units that occur basically at the same time. Letting different abilites increase attack speed for a short amount of time could also help in creating a more unpredictable damage pattern.
Anyhoo, a focus on attack speed over heavy single blows would be really cool but a combination of debuffs and abilites to temporary increase the damage dealt wouldnt be a bad thing either. If nothing else it would make your screen less cluttery while fighing hehe ;)

Great read Xurré, but dammit it inspired me even more to roll a Witch Elf! Thats of course not a bad thing but all things considered I though I was pretty decided on what careers I wanted to try out and I'm realizing the Witch Elfes will play pretty much like my old fury warrior (apart from the whole plate wearing that is...)! Wich would be great, I always did feel sad when fury stopped being viable for PvP :( (I'm referring to World of Warcraft if anyone don't know what I'm on about).

abr4
01-14-2008, 08:03 PM
Oh god, what an awful idea, I'd hate to fight a class like this...

Then again, I'll be playing Dark Elves too, so what do I care? :D

On a more serious note, I like the general style of your depiction of the witch elf class, but I have one point I specifically don't like and one thing I'd like to add.

First the point I didn't like. I pretty much play casters all the time and seeing your precious, life saving 1,5 second cast without any means to prevent it from disruption through damage finally get close to finishing after 5 seconds of casting only to watch it vanish into thin air, because your target went out of line of sight for a nano second is one of the most frustrating things to experience as a caster. And don't tell me skill can prevent this, all it takes the adversary is to suddenly change his movement a moment before you're done and you won't have time to react. At best it becomes a gamble "which direction will he move?" which is something I don't like either.
So now you probably see were I'm going with this. Your whole "frenzy increasing movement speed"-thing. Combined with the encouragement for players of the witch elf class to not stand still it'll become a casters nightmare. This is an inherent problem of caster mechanics, because you loose your spell even if your target is ing right next to you, but that is a whole other topic. To counter it you'd need a root skill, or some very serious slow effect.

What I do think is great is the positioning through skills. These are giving players the option to position themselves through the very core mechanics of the class and not via some flawed general game mechanics. If on a (short?) cooldown they add alot of tactical value to the class and take the positioning away from a dexterous level on behalf of the player to more of a mind skill, a thing I'm almost always in favor of.

But having players run around each other is a thing I'm already against, when it's giving no other advantage than breaking line of sight with the caster, I think it's a bad idea all around.

The thing I wanted to add. Imo Witch Elves should have a skill encouraging them to not leave combat and go back to heal up, but to fight to the death. There are numerous ways this could be accomplished, better frenzy gain when at low health, increasing damage while wounded or by having active abilities which increase the effectiveness of the witch elf and once activated you wouldn't want to let go to waste and leave the battle, but rather stay and help finish the opponent.

I had a similar thought when reading the whole "small numbers more often" thing. I straight of though burst damage versus sustained damage and for competitive player versus player battles you would really like access to tactical bursts of damage in order to counter healing and/or finnish the fight. Sustained damage may well be just as high in the end but since it's much more predictable it's also easier to counter.

HOWEVER!

Theres nothing to say that the smaller but faster attacks of the Witch Elf needs to be less "bursty" so to speak. You could just break up those huge blocks of damage into smaller units that occur basically at the same time. Letting different abilites increase attack speed for a short amount of time could also help in creating a more unpredictable damage pattern.
Anyhoo, a focus on attack speed over heavy single blows would be really cool but a combination of debuffs and abilites to temporary increase the damage dealt wouldnt be a bad thing either. If nothing else it would make your screen less cluttery while fighing hehe ;)

Fast attack with low or no burst damage at all must not be a bad thing for pvp if and only if, the damage down lays so much pressure on the healers that they eventually run out of action points to heal.

Since action points are a rather limited resource, unlike WoW mana for example this really could work.
For example Guild Wars PvP was not about massive burst damage, but with the generally low damage, a spell to prevent massive spikes from occuring (while active you couldn't loose more than 10% of your HP in a single blow), low maximum energy and high energy regen rate, it became a game of pressure play.

A single attack, could very easily be dealth with, even a couple of them if the spike was even off by half a second (which is quite a narrow gap tbh, remember you're playing over the internet and some people already have 0.25 seconds of ping).
You'd much rather focus on having the enemy team spend so much energy on healing until their natural regen rate couldn't put up with the spent energy anymore.

So here's to you a PvP-system were fast single attacks work ;)

Lucrece
01-14-2008, 09:17 PM
The system you seem to be describing is one where battles and opponents are fairly durable. So far from what I have seen from RvR videos, this is not the case.

Squishies under the focus fire of 2 or more people died in under 10 seconds.

Also, my comment was not solely aimed at the WE's lack of burst of damage.

I also mean that with the WE's current armor implementations and escape abilities, it seems like she'll be the most fragile of the melee DPS. This does not work well with sustained pressure. It appears that she'll be zooming in and out of combat, and as such burst suits her far more since it appears that she won't be able to sustain constant damage under pressure.

abr4
01-14-2008, 09:27 PM
The system you seem to be describing is one where battles and opponents are fairly durable. So far from what I have seen from RvR videos, this is not the case.

That's true, but so far the battle mechanics aren't fully fleshed out yet, so it still can go any direction.

It appears that she'll be zooming in and out of combat, and as such burst suits her far more since it appears that she won't be able to sustain constant damage under pressure.

True as well, but zooming in and out doesn't suit the witch elf to begin with, if you ask me.

Dukha
01-14-2008, 10:41 PM
Fast attack with low or no burst damage at all must not be a bad thing for pvp if and only if, the damage down lays so much pressure on the healers that they eventually run out of action points to heal.

Thats kinda what I was getting at. The DPS careers needs to put preasure on the healers and this feels easiest to do by having spiky, hard-to-predict damage patterns, where the DPS have a choice when to go all out so that timing is needed as well (not just spam a button all over again). Of course, I realize that the system may well allow for sustained damage to be effective as well, but wouldnt that kinda remove the unpredicatbility factor? I may be wrong here but timed spikes in one shape or the other seems more fun ;)

Note: I'm at the end of a night shift here so I may actually have missed your point completely. I WILL recheck this thread when I have slept and edit my response if needed :mrgreen:

Dan gerous
01-15-2008, 01:03 AM
I don't know man. Your ideas are extremely attractive. Makes me drool in anticipation to try out all the classes mechanics.

However I see some problems with the super quick attacks.

There needs to be a little bit of a break between attacks. Other wise spell casters wouldn't be able to get even one spell off. Don't say melee dps is meant to be good against spell casters, because they aren't meant to be GODS against them.

lots of little attacks vs big hits over all results in more dps.
Lets say a hammerer has 300damage every 3 seconds.
The Witch elf as 100damage every second.
The enemy has 400health.
The hammerer will kill the enemy in 6 seconds with 200wasted damage.
The witch elf kills the enemy in 4 seconds.
So it would need to be extremely balanced.

etc

I don't know for sure I just thought I'd put some points down to discuss.

Xurré
01-15-2008, 04:46 AM
First the point I didn't like. I pretty much play casters all the time and seeing your precious, life saving 1,5 second cast without any means to prevent it from disruption through damage finally get close to finishing after 5 seconds of casting only to watch it vanish into thin air, because your target went out of line of sight for a nano second is one of the most frustrating things to experience as a caster. And don't tell me skill can prevent this, all it takes the adversary is to suddenly change his movement a moment before you're done and you won't have time to react. At best it becomes a gamble "which direction will he move?" which is something I don't like either.
So now you probably see were I'm going with this. Your whole "frenzy increasing movement speed"-thing. Combined with the encouragement for players of the witch elf class to not stand still it'll become a casters nightmare. This is an inherent problem of caster mechanics, because you loose your spell even if your target is ing right next to you, but that is a whole other topic. To counter it you'd need a root skill, or some very serious slow effect.
To be honest, that is kinda the point. After all, melee damage classes are supposed to be good against ranged classes. A tank has little to fear from melee classes due to their armor, a ranged class has little to fear from tanks due to their distance (and the tank's slower movement) and as such melee damage classes should be little to fear from ranged classes (due to their faster movement speed and being hard to target).

That's not to say that it's impossible to target melee damage classes. A good AoE could do wonders and open terrain makes it so you can keep them in sight. If you want to protect your casters you put a tank in front of them. Not that the casters wouldn't have some protections of their own as well, but if they have little to fear from melee damage classes then ranged classes are going to rule the battlefield since they can decide when to engage or not and make certain they're always at a safe distance.

That said though, I think that if you're casting a spell against someone you're in melee combat with then "line-of-sight" shouldn't matter. After all, you know where they are even if you can't see them. I don't know if WAR works like that, but it's utterly silly if you can't cast a spell against someone who's standing pressed up against your back simply because you can't see them. The way I'd do it is that you'd need to have line-of-sight to begin casting, but when finishing they'd need to be either in line-of-sight or in melee distance.

The thing I wanted to add. Imo Witch Elves should have a skill encouraging them to not leave combat and go back to heal up, but to fight to the death. There are numerous ways this could be accomplished, better frenzy gain when at low health, increasing damage while wounded or by having active abilities which increase the effectiveness of the witch elf and once activated you wouldn't want to let go to waste and leave the battle, but rather stay and help finish the opponent.
Hmm, good idea. Maybe Witch Elves just gain frenzy from both doing damage and receiving damage, though that might make them too much like Black Guards' hatred mechanic.

Maybe frenzy depletes faster when out of combat. That would also put more use in the skill allowing you to leap from one enemy to the next (particularly if you can also use it off of a dead enemy so that you jump straight to the next one after killing someone). Preferably I'd like to see Witches in combat as much as possible.



Thats kinda what I was getting at. The DPS careers needs to put preasure on the healers and this feels easiest to do by having spiky, hard-to-predict damage patterns, where the DPS have a choice when to go all out so that timing is needed as well (not just spam a button all over again). Of course, I realize that the system may well allow for sustained damage to be effective as well, but wouldnt that kinda remove the unpredicatbility factor? I may be wrong here but timed spikes in one shape or the other seems more fun ;)
To be honest, I think a shower of numbers is more fun than a single big one. But maybe that's just me. :p

The quick attacks aren't without their form of burst damage though. After all, they're all about doing damage as fast as possible, so at some point you'd have highly increased speeds of damaging. While normally you might do two attacks a second of 50 points each, at other times you let go a flurry of attacks doing six attacks in one second of 75 points each, giving you a 'burst' of 350 points over the norm while still having lots of small attacks.

Add to that the layered damage (poisons working independently of sword attacks) as well as proper use of elixirs to increase speed and such and you can seriously increase the speed of the damage you do despite the low numbers. In short, where other classes are about increasing the single numbers the Witch Elf would be about increasing the frequency. And it's very easy to catch people off-guard like that (particularly since to more sustained speed before might lull them in a false sense of security).

Also, if there's a lot of burst damage then I also expect there to be a fair amount of anti-burst protection; protection like shield that prevent any damage over a certain number of points, triggered heals that go off automatically based on amount of damage done, etc. A series of quick, low damage attacks would bypass such protections and thus continually keep the enemy on their toes again. Don't forget, healing isn't the only way to protect people and if a lot of those protections are focused on burst damage then a class which circumvents that will be much desired in PvP I'm sure.



There needs to be a little bit of a break between attacks. Other wise spell casters wouldn't be able to get even one spell off. Don't say melee dps is meant to be good against spell casters, because they aren't meant to be GODS against them.
Good point and that's something I agree with. It depends on how many abilities and spells caster classes have that can't be interrupted. For example, I'd imagine them all having melee attacks of some sort as well and perhaps instant cast spells (or just spells that don't get interrupted despite a longer cast time).

The thing to also keep in mind though is that every second a player isn't doing something is a second that they're bored. Personally I'm not sure if I'd want to play a class where I fire an ability, have to wait five seconds, then fire another ability, then wait five more second, etc. I'd want to be constantly doing something.

But I see your point and that's definitely something that needs to be taken into account.

lots of little attacks vs big hits over all results in more dps.
Lets say a hammerer has 300damage every 3 seconds.
The Witch elf as 100damage every second.
The enemy has 400health.
The hammerer will kill the enemy in 6 seconds with 200wasted damage.
The witch elf kills the enemy in 4 seconds.
So it would need to be extremely balanced.
You're miscalculating somewhat there actually, because I'd imagine the hammer doing damage only slightly slower than the Witch Elf, it just takes him longer to do it again.

Say, for example, that an attack animation for the Hammerer lasts one second and for the Witch Elf one half a second (and let's give her the ability to do 50 points of damage ever half second). It would then take the Hammerer four seconds to kill with 200 wasted points (one second animation plus two seconds wait for recharge, plus one more second animation). The Witch Elf would also still be in four seconds with no waste.

Though even if you're taking a three-second animation speed of 300 points versus a one-second animation speed of 100 points then the Hammerer has the advantage in doing burst damage. After all, don't forget that he's reducing the enemy's hitpoints by 75% in one blow. Slower attack speed has the benefit of burst damage, faster attack speed has the advantage of less wasted damage (due to dealing it out in smaller portions) and they might kill a bit faster.

Of course you'd get the best result if you first let a Witch Elf work on the enemy for a second and then have a Choppa finish them off with a single, three-second, 300 point hit. ;)


Of course I'm not that much of a numbers cruncher. My prime concern is having a class that's fun to play and which feels like playing a Witch Elf. :)


- Xurré

Dukha
01-15-2008, 05:43 AM
To be honest, I think a shower of numbers is more fun than a single big one. But maybe that's just me. :p.
No argument from me on that point, thats actually what I was trying to say in my first post hehe.
The quick attacks aren't without their form of burst damage though. After all, they're all about doing damage as fast as possible, so at some point you'd have highly increased speeds of damaging. While normally you might do two attacks a second of 50 points each, at other times you let go a flurry of attacks doing six attacks in one second of 75 points each, giving you a 'burst' of 350 points over the norm while still having lots of small attacks.
Jupp, thats basically how I would envision a melee DPS career having burst damage. What I feel is important since this is focused on interactions with other players (and by interactions I mostly mean killing their toons :cool:) some very important factors would be the ability to perform split second decisions, react faster than the other dude and bacically trick your opponent into messing up. Waiting for the exact right time to go all out and unleash that 6 attack flurry would be a very important aspect of it in my opinion. And if that burst takes the shape of 6 super fast but weak attacks instead of just one heavy hit then I'm all for it :D
Also, if there's a lot of burst damage then I also expect there to be a fair amount of anti-burst protection; protection like shield that prevent any damage over a certain number of points, triggered heals that go off automatically based on amount of damage done, etc. A series of quick, low damage attacks would bypass such protections and thus continually keep the enemy on their toes again. Don't forget, healing isn't the only way to protect people and if a lot of those protections are focused on burst damage then a class which circumvents that will be much desired in PvP I'm sure.
Just as long as defensive abilities and offensive abilities (nuking, healing, shielding and so on) require some thinking and sound judgement I'm happy ;)

By the way, regarding casting, line of sight issues and the fear that really fast attcaks will cause to much spell push back, I just though I'd mention that World of Warcraft employs a system where you need to face your opponent both to start casting and to finnish your cast. The time in between though you can look anywhere you like... This is'nt really that much of a problem and since Warhammer will have collision detection for PvP I don't think that will be an issue at all. At least not if ranged DPS get's reasonable defense mechanisms so they wont be complete sitting ducks. Same goes for the meleers as well I guess :mrgreen:

abr4
01-15-2008, 07:32 AM
To be honest, that is kinda the point. After all, melee damage classes are supposed to be good against ranged classes. A tank has little to fear from melee classes due to their armor, a ranged class has little to fear from tanks due to their distance (and the tank's slower movement) and as such melee damage classes should be little to fear from ranged classes (due to their faster movement speed and being hard to target).

Sure, I totally agree, melee dps should be a cloth killer, but make it in a way where it's not accomplished by ridiculously running around and silly game mechanics, but in a way regulated by abilities. Otherwise, especially with the increased spellpushback, it'll be a very frustrating match up. Plus leaping to the enemies flanks or jumping over them to get to their backs would look way cooler if it was an animation, wouldn't it ;)

Not that the casters wouldn't have some protections of their own as well, but if they have little to fear from melee damage classes then ranged classes are going to rule the battlefield since they can decide when to engage or not and make certain they're always at a safe distance.

Again, they should fear melee classes, but via class mechanics and not game mechanics. As for the range, I would have much rather preferred if witch elves had gotten a leap into combat, but out of it.

That said though, I think that if you're casting a spell against someone you're in melee combat with then "line-of-sight" shouldn't matter. After all, you know where they are even if you can't see them. I don't know if WAR works like that, but it's utterly silly if you can't cast a spell against someone who's standing pressed up against your back simply because you can't see them. The way I'd do it is that you'd need to have line-of-sight to begin casting, but when finishing they'd need to be either in line-of-sight or in melee distance.

Glad we agree here, it is just one of the two most annoying things playing as a caster. The other one being spellpushback. In WoW a single hunter pet could very well reduce the straight up dps of a frostmage by 50% or more and to get away from it pretty much all you could do was use expensive abilities with a cooldown.
And it's not like mage dps was so awesome that it would have been justified.

Seldaren
01-15-2008, 10:45 AM
There has been a fair amount of speculation lately that Mythic might not be doing the Witch Elf justice in their implementation of the class, that she’ll play more like a rogue without stealth (and without much in the way of clothes) than like the frenzied zealot, the walking blender of death, that she is.

You must be reading some different material than I, because I do not get this at all.

Here are the Melee DPS classes in the game, and their "mechanics" for delivering that DPS.

Marauder - mutations
Witch Hunter - something about building up Confession
Hammerer - building momentum
Choppa - beserker fury
White Lion - something with the lion likely
Witch Elf - speed, and blood fury

Working for a purely generic point of view, they are all rogues. But only if you use the word "rogue" synomously with "melee DPS".

The two have become confused over the years because rogues are the most common form of melee DPS class that you find in MMOs.
Mythic is attempting to break that paradigm, by providing us with classes that do not use stealth as a "crutch" in order to do Melee DPS.

Throw out stealth, and you need another "mechanic". Each WAR Melee DPS has some form of mechanic that is supposed to allow them to do melee damage quickly.

The Witch Elf's mechanic is speed, poisons, and elixirs. Elixir just being a fancy name for "drugs", as calling them "drugs" might change the rating of the game. Because drugs are bad, mmkay? ;)

Everything I see in the Witch Elf description is spot on for what I imagine a Witch Elf to be. The description calls them fanatical fighters. The descriptions says they will weave a bloody trail across the battlefield.

Sure, the Disciple can melee, but it's highly and extremely doubtful their damage will in anyway ever eclipse the DPS of the Witch Elf.

I look forward to some of the Witch Elf's attacks being the things you have named here. Mythic seems to be really good about using actuall spells and attacks and things from the Lore.

NewKid
01-19-2008, 08:19 PM
There needs to be a little bit of a break between attacks. Other wise spell casters wouldn't be able to get even one spell off.

if your refering to a spell "push back", from what i have heard, Mythic will have no spell push backs from attacks. just cause the WE hits a poor BW 5 times per second doesn't mena that his spell bar is gona take forever. If i'm wrong plz correct me. :-P

and for the WE having the ability to attack really fast, i really like the concept of it, but it would never be used. regular attacks+abilities+elixers+frenzy+(possible moral abilities)=complete and udder disaster for whoever is on the other end, not to mention poisons are also in there. As far as the tank>mdps>rdps>tank. I like the fact that Mythic seems to be trying to play down these barriers. Just because your a rdps doesn't mean that you cant kill a mdps. obviously the mdps has an upper hand but if they dont take advantage of their opporunities i fully expect the rdps to be able to kill them.

o and Xurre, i hope you know that you have kept the WE forums alive, i honestly think the WE forum would have died off a while ago if you hadn't come in :-P

Gemini
01-19-2008, 09:56 PM
if your refering to a spell "push back", from what i have heard, Mythic will have no spell push backs from attacks. just cause the WE hits a poor BW 5 times per second doesn't mena that his spell bar is gona take forever. If i'm wrong plz correct me. :-P


Gladly. There are pushbacks on damage, however, there aren't interrupts unless the spell specifically says so, or does things like knockdown.

Sinfjotle
01-20-2008, 10:07 AM
Make the push back relative to the amount of damage that was done.


The only problem I really see with lots of small numbers is that well... High defense will be an absolute nightmare for them. In fact, against certain tanks they'd be such a non-threat that it'd be almost laughable. And against higher leveled monsters and such? Ha.

Only way to fix that, that I can think of, is give them some sort of ignore defense.


Oh and if there is any haste it'd also be pretty crazy. The closer you get to approaching 0 delay between attacks, the less damage means considering you'll be attacking 20 times a second. (Or in worst case scenario you'll break the game if you do hit 0 and attack infinitely per second.)

Xurré
01-21-2008, 04:06 AM
o and Xurre, i hope you know that you have kept the WE forums alive, i honestly think the WE forum would have died off a while ago if you hadn't come in :-P
I guess the priestesses get lazy without some supervision.

<cracks a whip> Come on, ladies, we've still got our daily quota of sacrifices to meet. :p


- Xurré