What if... Disciple Alternatives [Archive]

Xurré

01-28-2008, 08:43 AM

Let’s play a game of “what if”.

What if the description on the Disciple page looked like the ones I linked to below? Forget for a moment the description, the background, of the class as it is written now and ask yourself, what if it was this instead.

Here I purely want to look at the background of these suggestions, seeing if they fit with the current mechanics. I don’t want to get into the background of the class as it is, and respectfully ask you not to go into that either. Instead I want to look at these alternatives… ask yourself, what if Mythic had written the pages as I’ve shown; would you like it, would you dislike it, what would you improve or change, etc. How would you like playing one of these?

For each of the following (four) alternatives I’ll put a link to their description page in the title of each section, followed by a brief description going into a bit more detail. Note, again, that functionally they’re supposed to remain the same; it’s just the backgrounds which differ. And please, try to leave the “Disciple of Khaine” background out of it as that can only go bad places.

Disciple of Souls (Soultaker) (http://www.eilistraee.com/~trueblood/careers/Soultaker.htm)

Soultakers (named after one of the ritual blades Druchii nobles carry) are dark elf mages specializing in soul stealing magic. In their efforts to gain greater mastery over the daemon-crawler Anchan-Rogar they have found that the best way to steal their enemies’ souls through enchanted blades and magical relics. Thus these mages have adopted martial training and started wearing armour, becoming battle mages capable of using their foes’ very being against them. And as the centuries passed in secret study and training, secret experimentation, they’ve uncovered a great variety of uses to this energy they have the daemon crawler collect for them, from closing wounds and giving strength to even bringing back the dead, having the daemon restore the souls of the fallen with the souls of the slain. Thus the Soultakers, or Disciples of Souls, are true Druchii, enslaving even the powerful daemon to do their will.

Disciple of Pain (Torturer) (http://www.eilistraee.com/~trueblood/careers/Torturer.htm)

All Druchii enjoy inflicting pain and suffering on others, but a few have gained such mastery over pain that they can use it to achieve wondrous effects. In ages past they have found that through their torture their can take the essence of their victims and use it against them, healing their wounds just so that they can be tortured again and taking their victims well past the boundaries their bodies and minds would otherwise be able to endure. The most powerful have even been able to bring their victims back from the dead, allowing tem to correct the mistake of certain over-zealous torture. Some of these Disciple of Pain work as interrogators, getting information from high-profile slaves and criminal Druchii alike. Others work as entertainers, asking exorbitant prices for their performances of pain and suffering in the decadent Flesh Houses of the Druchii, a few even giving private performances for noble lords. But they are most at home on the battlefield where they know to strike the most painful spots on their enemies and use the essence they gain to aid their allies. The enemy soon learns: facing a Torturer on the battlefield means every hit deals excruciating pain and every battle is a hell of untold suffering.

Druchii Anointed (http://www.eilistraee.com/~trueblood/careers/Anointed.htm)

As the Witch King declared war on Ulthuan once again the Sorceress Convents revealed a surprise: warriors of great martial prowess and dark magical might. According to the Sorceresses these Anointed were the result of experiments to fuse the physical with the mental, experiments with great cost as most Druchii undergoing the process died. But those few who lived were a force of death, bestowing dark gifts on the armies of the Witch King. These Anointed seem the cruellest of the cruel, taking great pleasure in inflicting pain on their enemies and even seemingly finding enjoyment in getting hurt themselves, making them a near unstoppable dealer of death. So perhaps it is no surprise that every day scores of weak Druchii flock toward the Convents to themselves get turned into Anointed, only to end up as bodies for their experimentations, for the true secret of the Anointed the Sorceress are keeping carefully hidden.

Spiritwalker (http://www.eilistraee.com/~trueblood/careers/Spiritwalker.htm)

The Shades are a strange and secretive lot with customs strange to most city-born Druchii. As such it is no surprise that most Druchii don’t know of the shamans of these mountain tribes who walk the edges of the Chaos Wastes, conversing with spirits and lost in the mad visions of Chaos seeping through. They have learned to converse with and control the spirits of all things living and dead and can use them for their own end, use them to aid their tribe. Because of the danger of the Blackspire Mountains they’re skilled warriors out of necessity, having learned to draw spirits from their foes through their blackrock blades. Now, with the Druchii going to war, they have hired themselves out to the Witch King’s armies, extending their dark blessing over the Druchii troops.

Well, there you go. What do you think? I know that the look of the armour doesn’t really fit the Spiritwalker much at all, but it fits well enough for the other three. And personally I like the Torturer best since I feel it very much fits the Druchii mindset to heal just to be able to inflict more pain.

And I feel the need to once again urge to leave the current Disciple out of this as much as possible. Keep in mind “what if”; what if these truly were how the dark elf support class was and you never heard of the Disciple of Khaine.

I hope this can lead to some interesting discussion. :)

- Xurré

damsel

01-28-2008, 08:56 AM

I actually, love them all

/faint

Even the bloody Cult of slaanesh anointed but that was all good

/cheer

good work as always xurre

These would all be very easy to implement (zero change to graphics and abilities) as well as making the Lore guys happy

It is a win win if you ask me

SirValeq

01-28-2008, 03:40 PM

Tastreth

01-28-2008, 04:23 PM

Well written. I think I'm the most fond of the Spiritwalker idea.

Xurré

01-28-2008, 05:29 PM

Torturer is a win. Although it may collide with all those teen ratings and such, with so much cruelty in their background. My personal favourite nonetheless.
Anointed is a runner-up. It's like only moving the current disciple from the temple of Khaine to the Covenant, with almost no changes at all. Seems easiest to do.
Thanks, Torturer is my favorite as well. And I think that considering some of the other classes make reference to torturing and inflicting pain and "interrogating" that it should be alright (if nothing else, don't use the name "Torturer" but "Disciple of Pain" instead).

But I like all of them in their own way. Even the Anointed since I managed to write it without any direct Slaanesh references (based on suggestions made by others). Anyway, I'm glad people like them as well. :)

- Xurré

Thrakkesh

01-28-2008, 05:37 PM

i fart rainbows

01-28-2008, 05:46 PM

Well written, but I think you are wasting your time beating a perfectly dead horse.

Xurré

01-28-2008, 05:48 PM

The 'Torturer' is fine until you start to realize that he has to heal other races as well, then it kind of falls apart. You think the Disciple as it stands is bad, consider a high ranking (max rank) Chaos Lord being poked and prodded by a Dark Elf, or better yet, a Black Orc. The idea that they would tolerate having agony inflicted on them in the middle of a fight from an 'ally' is, at best, a little jarring, and at worse really hilarious. If you are to assume that the process of 'healing' is, in and of itself, not painful (which would be pretty strange for someone delighting in inflicting pain), then it just stands a bit of an oddity. He pokes people with a stick, then uses the pain of poking to.. un-poke... something. I dunno, it seems kind of a silly concept to me. (Not that I think very highly of the current one).
I think you misunderstand. In normal practices the Torturer would torture victims to get their souls or whatever which they then use to heal their victims to torture them again. But in war (and thus in WAR) they torture the enemy to get their souls or whatever to heal their allies. So they wouldn't be inflicting agony on their allies at all; they'd be inflicting it on high elves and Empire humans and dwarfs and turn it around to heal dark elves and chaos humans and greenskins. In essence they've achieved some very specialized form of dark/death magic without really realizing it, perfecting it over many centuries (and because of that and the druchii's natural proclivity towards magic they've got a handle on it). Or something along those lines.

Soultaker I've already given my two cents on, namely that it's an incredibly dumb name. :( It would be essentially a Disciple - Khaine, so there's nothing more then to discuss other then... I REALLY hate the name Soultaker. (Disciple of Souls being about as good as Disciple of Khaine, which is to say... blah).
I picked that name (which wasn't even on the old list) because it's one that actually exists in Warhammer for the dark elves. It just isn't a class, but the name of a weapon. But it's in the official lore, so I can see the name developing as sort of a gag by the nobles to which they've taken.

- Xurré

Lucrece

01-28-2008, 05:58 PM

I've always been an Anointed advocate. It is a pity that they were not implemented.

I doubt that at this point any major changes will be made.

damsel

01-28-2008, 09:10 PM

I've always been an Anointed advocate. It is a pity that they were not implemented.

I doubt that at this point any major changes will be made.

If anything, that is kinda a shame, I prefer the torture and anointed lore over the current Disciple of khaine.

mongoose

01-28-2008, 11:24 PM

First off pretty sneaky mirroring the Mythic site :rolleyes:

Disciple of Souls (Soultaker) - hate the name and would prefer Soul Reaver.

Im not real fond of the Daemon link thing.

Disciple of Pain (Torturer) - Aside from the things Thrakkesh listed the class also sounds way too much like the Witch Hunter + healing.

Druchii Anointed - Still my preferred choice and I would have much rather Mythic had gone the melee Sorcerer route.

Spiritwalker - Destruction already has one of the healing classes coming from the Barbarians of the North and I dont see it being a good idea to have yet another. This is more what the Zealot should have been.

Ayetalam

01-29-2008, 12:09 AM

I personally like the Annointed and Soultaker Ideas. But to me, this is just an attempt to talk about changes to the fluff. I know you aren't advocating or doing propaganda for anything, but its pretty much the same idea with a new wax. Just because you add a What If, and ask not to talk about the Disciple, doesn't mean it isn't the same topic.

Its a great topic and everything, but whats the point of the post? What if no longer means anything because it can't happen. So even though I applaud you at the time taken to this, the insight, and the great ideas. This serves no purpose than to rile up people that are still iffy on the Disciple to try and promote a change to one of these.

A dead horse in a nice pretty dress, is still a dead horse.

zoa

01-29-2008, 12:57 AM

Torturer would be pretty cool, but my favourite is Spiritwalker for sure, and although mongoose is kinda right, I still would of loved to have seen this.

Xurré

01-29-2008, 03:11 AM

Disciple of Souls (Soultaker) - hate the name and would prefer Soul Reaver.

Im not real fond of the Daemon link thing.
Yeah, the name has always been a bit of an issue with that one, though it's definitely not worse than what we've got.

As for the daemon thing, I did that to add a bit of an extra flavor to it and set it apart more from the Sorceress; the Sorceress commands dark magic, the Soultaker commands a daemon. And since the spell description they're supposed to be specialists in specifically mentions that daemon I thought it was apt.

Heck, if I had my way with the class (and complete freedom to stray from current mechanics/animations) I'd probably include animations of the daemon reaching through the Soultaker's weapon to take souls or whatnot; enhancing the symbolism that the weapon acts like the daemon's 'arm'. Anyway.

Disciple of Pain (Torturer) - Aside from the things Thrakkesh listed the class also sounds way too much like the Witch Hunter + healing.
One could perhaps see them as similar, but certainly not more so than the similarities between other classes. The Witch Hunter hunts, bringing Chaos worshipers to justice; the Torturer inflicts pain for their own selfish ends. Besides, I'd think that torturing is far more apt for dark elves than for humans. ;)

- Xurré

CapnSquig-WHA

01-29-2008, 05:22 AM

/sigh.

Not going to comment other than to say you need to include something at the top of those pages indicating that they are not official. If someone happens to find them, they could well think they are in the game and real.

And the thread has been well behaved, but we will be watching to see if anyone gets out of line. But and admin could decide to lock the thread anyway.

Xurré

01-29-2008, 06:40 AM

you need to include something at the top of those pages indicating that they are not official. If someone happens to find them, they could well think they are in the game and real.
Good point; hadn't thought of that. I'll have to do that when I get home.

[EDIT] There, that should do it.

- Xurré

Lord Tareq

01-29-2008, 11:24 AM

I love them all, personally I like how you made the Anointed viable by not linking them directly to the Cult. Needless to say the Anointed is my favorite, though I like the Torturer as well.

Its also great to see the mods haven't jumped on this topic warning that it will probably be closed soon...oh wait.

Fyaniz

01-29-2008, 03:00 PM

Looks nice, all of it really, and could very well be used by RPers who want to use "alternative" lore. Not that WAR's lore isn't alternative already. ;)

Not sure which I like best, possibly the anointed.

Xykros

01-29-2008, 03:04 PM

* Edited for Content *

Ayetalam

01-29-2008, 03:17 PM

Nicely said. I said something similar on the first page, but yours adds a lot. When you get the animation done, be sure to send me a link to it or something. I really would love ot see it.

Tastreth

01-29-2008, 03:41 PM

damsel

01-29-2008, 04:38 PM

I wasn't gonna mention it, but some others have brought it up, so I'll give it a shot. While I don't think they're as bad Xykros said, it seems you're unable to drop this Xurre. At this point, you're honestly coming across as someone flailing about, trying desperately to vindicate their point of view.

While I applaud the creativity, none of what you're doing will change anything in the game. The Disciples are in. GW has chosen to allow Mythic to explore a new face of Khaine. Nothing you say or do will change that, so please just move on.

Edit: After re-reading your original post, I'd like to add one more thought. I believe I understand why you posted this. This isn't an attempt to get the Disciple removed, it's an attempt to justify yourself. Your desire for this thread was for people to say, "Oh, those are cool! I totally would've liked to play those! (instead of it's current form)." This would "prove" your point that the Disciple was a bad choice, and would give you more ammo in discussions held elsewhere. All in all, this post was in very bad taste IMO. This discussions has nothing left to offer the community. Move on.

TROLL, there I said it sorry, if it is to blunt could a admin whisper me and tell me to edit it, I will gladly, but really, you troll EVERY one of xurre's threads, if you think it is a dead horse. I have a hint, please stop posting, we are continuing the conversation in a kind and cooperative manner, and basically going "dead horse" "dead horse" is not very cooperative, kinda, nor constructive. we aren't talking about the disciple here, we are, if anything, talking about alternatives, at best, we are talking about possible new classes (annointed, imho could justify a spot) and even ways for people to roll play there Disciple of khaine. If anything, you need to move on, and leave her post alone. If anything, your post was in very bad taste.

and here is a hint: SLAYERS WHERE ONCE IN THE GAME AS WELL AS ORC SHAMANS AND GUESS WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM!?!?! right, just because it is in the game, at any point (as MBJ as repeatedly said it is done when we think it it is done). Just because you think it is here to stay, it very well may not be the case, if the game has launched and they are there, totally different story, but that is just not the case now.

Furthermore, mythic HIGHLY values player feedback, i don't see how lore feedback is any different than other feedback (You can tell how they value our input by the length of beta as well as community fan-site activity even under the attacks by trolls). Xurre is giving feedback here, if you read her previous posts you will notice people telling her that they 1) like the apperenence 2) they like the mechanic and 3) they don't care about lore. Here xurre is showing quick and easy fixes that mythic could do that would make 1 and 2 stay, but make her happy by changing 3.

So finally, none of your condescension seems justified, so please stop this, and lets get back on topic.

/sigh.

Not going to comment other than to say you need to include something at the top of those pages indicating that they are not official. If someone happens to find them, they could well think they are in the game and real.

That is good point, and glade she did it. But, I find the style she did it in to be very effective in a way to show that these can still be implemented with minimal work.

And the thread has been well behaved, but we will be watching to see if anyone gets out of line. But and admin could decide to lock the thread anyway.

Hopefully your opinion still holds this way :-), but I got a question, if you guys lock a thread, is there a way to request the lock be reversed, and what is the chance of it succeeding? because this thread has "potential" imho, and I would hate to see it locked (please whisper me immediately if you want me to post less rhetorically, i just started posting here and I don't want to seem like a troll)

First, and I do not even have to quote anyone, it is quite in poor taste of Xurré and other anti-DoK, to use this as a 'I hate DoK thread, with mascara'. You do not want them to close this, do not provoke people with your very clear hate for the class.

We can't do "what if" threads, or "alternative" threads, the game isn't even out yet, we are voicing our strong opinion, and hopefully mythic listens and makes changes. People "hated" instance Pvp, and mythic pushed game back for 2 months to add more world pvp. Isn't that one function of this board? (player feedback (or rather potential player))

Also, I scale your creativity of your classes a 2 out of 5(3 for Soultaker, 1 for Torturer), as they aren't very creative. In fact, the only one that was slightly amusing to read was the soultaker.If you would read some of the backlogged post way before the DoK was announced and after the sorc was announced, you will notice several of these where suggested. many of these aren't xurre original but rather all possible alternatives

Proper grammar and writing skills do not make you creative, makes it more bearable to read, but not creative. Within your different versions of the DoK, you drop most, if not all of the selling points of the DoK, such as their eyes.How are there eyes a selling point? I mean, they seem, at best, to be gimmicky (which is a good thing to add flavor) but I don't see how that was a selling point, if anything the selling point was the look and in-game mechanic, Brass eyes seem really to be a minor part of the apperence, and the lore behind the eyes seems non-consequential. Really, you are just trolling at this point, You seem hell-bent on insulting xurre.

Nor do some of them make any form of sense, such as the torturer, having medical knowledge is a given when torturing people, but 'torturers' do not work to save people, ever. Also, them bringing people back to life makes no sense what so ever. Because their years of practicing torture they can bring people back to life? Archmages bring people back to life with the lore of life/light which is totally unconnected to any diety really. So, in here example (which I am starting to wonder if you read) you will notice that they tapped into Dhar (dark magic) through their innate elfyness and years of practice. Furthermore, the DoK (which you seem fond of) Kills to heal, they need blood? how is this different? Furthermore, if you read the story she written (again doubting you did this) you will notice that a good torturer masters the art of taking a prisoner to the brink of death and bringing them back in order to interrogate them some more. This seems perfectly reasonable (IMHO more so than a DoK, but again, lets not get into this, this thread isn't about them).

The anointed I will not touch, there isn't a point, bring it up if you want, I'm not going to talk about it. Same with the spiritwalker, I've never had a class description lull me to the point that I actually started to fall asleep, a first when reading one of Xurré's posts, as generally I get inspired to draw something reading what you post.
Again, not all her ideas, but a conglomeration. But your bias is evident, and your claims to bordom seem more driven by hate to any question of the DoK. Stop pointing xurre out, that is troll behavior #1, aka flaming. Maybe you should point out what is boring? that seems more constuctive.

Note: I hope they close this thread, since it's just a disguised anti-DoK thread, now do not think this is a troll post, but honestly this thread is on the same level as a 14 year old table top player waving his arm infront of him and repeating 'invinsible shield, invinsible shield, invi....'(this part is a joke). Mostly because Xurré shows bias on almost every single one of his/her posts, along with others who support him/her. This thread would have been good otherwise.All people have a bias, and reconginizing that is a key to understanding interpersonal relationships. But in a thread when you start using said bias to attack someone, I think you are trolling, the mods use this as a key to a dead horse, which I do DISagree with, but you are flaming.

Also, take into consideration, the change in their lore because of your dislike for it would cause a loss in far greater numbers to WAR than leaving them as is. you have no evidence for this, you have no claim to state this. This is unproven and unfactual based opinion.

A large portion of players (who are either lurkers, or silent) are extremely unforgiving to a games devs when they breakdown and change things because of people crying, the last thing a MMO wants to do(edit: 100 player loss vs 20 player lossyuppers, I can't wait to play those slayers and orc shamans, especially in all those Instanced pvp that is the focus of the game, yuppers. (this was sarcasm) mythic has made several changes based on player feedback. So instead of being just opinion, this is straight out FALSE.

, unlike you, who will still play the game, a change in DoK lore which was created by Mythic, would cause actual loss or insecurities in players), since a company cannot please everyone. I should know, as that is the deciding factor to almost everyone I talk to in every game I play. Apperently, Mythic disagrees with you, they have made several mechanics and lore changes from player feedback. (never claimed they agreed with xurre or even myself, but this is just plain out false, mythic has changed information prior to releasing it several times)

P.S. I actually sketched out an animation I may do in the near future, if I ever build up the motivation to finish it, because of Xurré. It's of a DoK and WE fighting with each other, but moving with combos making it seem like they're dancing. All while killing anyone around them, through trying to kill each other. Not very creative, but it looked good in my head, and down on paper.Wow, that seems fun, but what again does that have to do with alternatives to the DoK, especially those posted by xurre?

I personally like the Annointed and Soultaker Ideas.

Me to!, although I like the torturer a lot as well.
But to me, this is just an attempt to talk about changes to the fluff. I know you aren't advocating or doing propaganda for anything, but its pretty much the same idea with a new wax. Just because you add a What If, and ask not to talk about the Disciple, doesn't mean it isn't the same topic

yeah it actually does. How is suggesting alternatives the same as showing how the Lore of the Disciple of Khaine has issues? They seem to be on totally conceptually different paths? You may think they are the same because xurre post it, but with this logic, basically if xurre even talks about a disciple of khaine in a thread it is immediately propaganda?

What if no longer means anything because it can't happen.

I addressed this earlier, because it is in-game doesn't mean it is set-in-stone, there are many examples of this.

Its a great topic and everything, but whats the point of the post? So even though I applaud you at the time taken to this, the insight, and the great ideas. This serves no purpose than to rile up people that are still iffy on the Disciple to try and promote a change to one of these.

I really don't see these as being hard to implement by mythic. I could easily see them changing it, although the vicious ban-hammer on fan-sites to those who bring up this discent was pretty ruthless, so maybe mythic thinks those who question the DoK are trolls? they certainly haven't made any post regarding DoK lore.

A dead horse in a nice pretty dress, is still a dead horse.

That is very true, but how does that relate to this topic? Like I have showed earlier, this is really a different topic, covering new ground, specifically xurre showing what changes she had in mind (new living horse who seems to have a nice pink skirt), not why she thinks there needs to be change (said dead horse)

Tastreth

01-29-2008, 04:43 PM

I said nothing in my second post about it not being well written. But you are correct, I'm trolling at this point. I apologize, and bow out.

damsel

01-29-2008, 04:47 PM

I said nothing in my second post about it not being well written. But you are correct, I'm trolling at this point. I apologize, and bow out.

I am sorry, I misinterpreted what you said, the swirling maelstorm of negativity in the previous two post was projected on yours, but my points on the second post do stand.

You don't have to leave if you want to discuss the merits of each :-) as an alternative

I am curious as to why you like the spiritwalker the most

(I edited that out of my 2nd post in this thread)

EDIT:

This is what I previously stated

Well written. I think I'm the most fond of the Spiritwalker idea.

This post seems...confusing when you pare it with your next post?

Are you just jumping on to the anti-xurre making any post concerning disciples bandwagon? because earlier in this thread you thought her ideas where "well written'.

Just posting this here for consistency so people know what we are talking about

-I do disagree with what I said now, after re-reading what was said

Tastreth

01-29-2008, 04:52 PM

Dunno exactly why I liked the Spiritwalker best. I think I just felt it was both the best written, and most original of the 4 descriptions Xurre wrote up.

Anyhow, my frustrations from my earlier post remain, so methinks this shall be my last post in this thread. Maybe the rest of yall can prove Browncoat wrong this time around. =P

damsel

01-29-2008, 05:06 PM

It may be how you envision them when you read it, that is why I like the Disciple of Souls and the Torturer.

Not gona happen Xuree.
/target Xuree
/pity

I believe it is Xurre (with funny e but I think she accepts normal e's :-) )

Gloovish

01-29-2008, 05:09 PM

Not gona happen Xuree.
/target Xuree
/pity

Xurré

01-29-2008, 05:26 PM

Within your different versions of the DoK, you drop most, if not all of the selling points of the DoK, such as their eyes.
To be honest I never considered that a selling point (and I’ll refrain refrain from saying what I do think of it as that’ll lead nowhere fast). It is, however, very, very easy to include them in all of the four example alternatives.

“The Soultaker has eyes of molten brass, showing them marked by the touch of Anchan-Rogar,” “With the ability to take the essence of their victims the Torturer has gained eyes of molten brass, allowing them to see into their victims’ souls so that they can best cause suffering of the mind as well as the body,” “The Anointed are easy to recognize by their eyes of molten brass, which the Sorceresses say is the result of their experiments,” “Some Autarii children are born with eyes of molten brass, showing that these special children have the ability to see spirits and thus marking them for the path of a Spiritwalker.” Just a few quick examples.

Nor do some of them make any form of sense, such as the torturer, having medical knowledge is a given when torturing people, but 'torturers' do not work to save people, ever.
Hmm, I thought it was actually fairly well established in fantasy that the most cruel torturers tend to want to keep their victims alive as long as possible so as to be able to continue torturing them. And no matter how tough the victim or how skilled and restrained the torturer at some point a person just breaks; being able to heal such victims back to that allows one to take someone far beyond what they could normally endure, putting them in a never ending nightmare of continual suffering.

Also, them bringing people back to life makes no sense what so ever. Because their years of practicing torture they can bring people back to life? Sorry, doesn't work and it sounds rather bad.
Perhaps you missed the point where they’ve achieved some highly specialized magical ability (perhaps even without fully realizing). If you can take the essence of a person to heal them then one can take this to an extreme and use lots of such essence to resurrect, no. ;)

Dunno exactly why I liked the Spiritwalker best. I think I just felt it was both the best written, and most original of the 4 descriptions Xurre wrote up.
Thank you. I’m glad you liked it at least somewhat. :)

Looks nice, all of it really, and could very well be used by RPers who want to use "alternative" lore. Not that WAR's lore isn't alternative already. ;)
Indeed. In the end I strongly believe that the players make the game.

- Xurré

Xykros

01-29-2008, 06:01 PM

-To Damsel's Post, Quoting you to avoid a far too large post

I'm not going to quote you and tear at it it piece by piece, as it would just create a pointlessly bulky post, when most of your post I consider more along the lines to be a Halycon's Razor.

What if threads are based on opinions, as the overlay of Xurre's thread is asking 'what if?'. Which is possible to create them without the bias shown by Xurre, and the fact that anyone who agrees with her attacks people who do not. Another point, please refrain from using severe differences, such as that of the pvp changes, as they're far too different and only hurt your argument. Also, take note that player feedback wasn't all too big till around the time of late WoW and LotRO.
As far as reading back into threads, that would be pointless, as they do not really pertain to this thread (and I've read most of them any how). I know it is tempting to say 'yes they do', but in reality they do not. As Xurre is the one who made this thread, the ideals fall upon Xurre. This isn't the playground where you can tell Jamie to jump off the monkey bars and then tell the teacher Mike told you to say it. Which in turn does not change the fact that they are not very creative, quite simply in my opinion they are not.
As far as the eyes being a selling point, they're... this is called aesthetics, as looks can sell, just go argue graphics with anyone on the art & sound board or even read through it, you will see that tiny things matter.
I'm not interested in insulting Xurre, check all my other postings – you may notice they are quite random. But provoking people under a false guise after it has been said many times to drop it by mods, administrators, and even the Garthilk, while using a thread that could have been amusing had it not been for the anti-DoK portions written all over it. Just as you noticed our lovely CapnSquig's post, it makes this that much more obvious.
Now for the next portion of your post, you should not have brought the mechanics of the DoK vs Torturer if you wanted to avoid conflict. I will not go into how real torturers function, but his/hers is far to limited, uninteresting, and once a persons dead someone who tortures people won't bring them back to life, as the entire point is to do it as long as possible without killing the person. Also, a torturer would be far more viable in the position of the WE instead of the DoK. Am I declaring that the WE should be replaced? Nope, I enjoy WE's, I like their lore, and I like the overall personalities, but torturers are masters of tools, something that would make them perfect melee dps, not healers.
I am fond of the DoK, the same way I like the BG, the WE, and the Sorc, but my preferred style of play is support type classes, so I am more on a neutral post of the fence, with my foot on the side that likes the lore, while I sit on the fence. The fact that I happen to like the lore does not play on what I said, although I do mention the DoK in my post, as this is the DoK's section, and a thread about alternate DoK's.
The part about my claims of boredom has nothing to do with the fact that I like the DoK, it is actually because reading the last two bored me, which in turn makes it pointless for me to critique them. This would cause me to critique them poorly for that fact alone, so I ignored critiquing them with leaving the side note 'not interesting'.
I actually do not hold a bias towards classes, but when people over do something to the point that it just becomes malice through stupidity, in turn just making it pointless. Finally, why wouldn't I target Xurre specifically within this thread? It is his/her thread, Xurre did post it and responded to it, just like any other thread, the target of a post is tied to the OP specifically, rather or not the OP is mentioned.

Note: Please limit what you assume, it makes any response to you seem more pointless, as it will usually be safe to assume that is exactly what you will continue to do. Plus, it makes your posts look bad. Hopefully I have addressed most of your points, as you did not do the same courtesy for me, and just nit picked specifics. Chances are if I see a repeat in your posts, I just wont respond to you seriously.

Xykros

01-29-2008, 06:30 PM

To be honest I never considered that a selling point (and I’ll refrain refrain from saying what I do think of it as that’ll lead nowhere fast). It is, however, very, very easy to include them in all of the four example alternatives.

Aesthetics, purely aesthetics, although easy to include, most would not fit the eyes of molten brass, as other sets of eyes would make more sense. Like full black eyes for the torturer, or they have red pupils, make a bit more interesting. Soultakers would have grey or white eyes imo, which is my personal favorite, the molten brass felt new.

“The Soultaker has eyes of molten brass, showing them marked by the touch of Anchan-Rogar,” “With the ability to take the essence of their victims the Torturer has gained eyes of molten brass, allowing them to see into their victims’ souls so that they can best cause suffering of the mind as well as the body,” “The Anointed are easy to recognize by their eyes of molten brass, which the Sorceresses say is the result of their experiments,” “Some Autarii children are born with eyes of molten brass, showing that these special children have the ability to see spirits and thus marking them for the path of a Spiritwalker.” Just a few quick examples.

See, those really do not seem to fit those classes, there are far better choices, but in turn it is the more common choices. But you could have fun with it like I said above to still be creative and earn something interesting.

Hmm, I thought it was actually fairly well established in fantasy that the most cruel torturers tend to want to keep their victims alive as long as possible so as to be able to continue torturing them. And no matter how tough the victim or how skilled and restrained the torturer at some point a person just breaks; being able to heal such victims back to that allows one to take someone far beyond what they could normally endure, putting them in a never ending nightmare of continual suffering.

Just like in my first post in this thread, medical knowledge is a given to torturers. But the one you have doesn't go much into are ways of a torturer, and didn't give them a good enough reason to heal or res. You could have added so much to it, and done so many interesting things. But it isn't, nothing really interesting is actually done, just the fact that he tortures people and gained dark arts through it.

Perhaps you missed the point where they’ve achieved some highly specialized magical ability (perhaps even without fully realizing). If you can take the essence of a person to heal them then one can take this to an extreme and use lots of such essence to resurrect, no. ;)
- Xurré

Read the point above, not enough reason for them to do it. With how much of a mind you seem to have, I am sure you could fill in and have so much more fun with the torturer than what is in your initial post. Seeing as you are almost a perfect example of "A great writer can convince a person to kill others."

Note: Repeated Attacks of Big Block of Texts, forgive me folks, I'm sketching out a storyboard atm and like to read in between drawings.

Gloovish

01-29-2008, 06:54 PM

I believe it is Xurre (with funny e but I think she accepts normal e's :-) )
I kent spel Xuree :(, but it's ok. I think I'm invisible to him anyway.

Browncoat-WHA

01-29-2008, 07:43 PM

Hopefully your opinion still holds this way :smile:, but I got a question, if you guys lock a thread, is there a way to request the lock be reversed, and what is the chance of it succeeding? because this thread has "potential" imho, and I would hate to see it locked (please whisper me immediately if you want me to post less rhetorically, i just started posting here and I don't want to seem like a troll)

It's no problem. I'll answer here so as to provide some useful information to anyone who's curious. I'll be brief so as not to derail this thread too much.

You can certainly PM an admin (Garthilk, Kilrogg, or Archangel) about threads being locked or moderated, and explain any concerns, criticism, or feedback you have. But we very rarely if ever unlock threads - once they're locked, they're pretty much locked forever - we do this as it is the most convenient policy to have for us and for the posters who want to see a clear moderation direction. While we use our best judgment at locking and otherwise moderating threads, we are, of course, only human, and we can make mistakes - this is why we have multiple individuals and a team of administrators overseeing efforts as well.

krogg

01-29-2008, 08:55 PM

I do not at all mean to be offensive, but your examples are a bit too watered down. I still think the DoK has the most interesting background. And a lot of the coolness factor lies in the DoK's position with in the temple of Khaine. I'd rather play Khaine's true chosen over any of the other versions given here.

Sinfjotle

01-29-2008, 09:26 PM

Then play a Witch Elf.

I like the torturer the most, it seems so cruel and absolutely fantastic in such a devilish way. The brass eyes seemed rather tacked on and unimportant though to get such a unique look. I'd be rather confused about that as a new player and probably more think along the lines of "What the hell? Who thought of that?", then again I don't think the eyes look cool.

I've already told you though, if I was a new player I'd be convinced by the pages (and as a mod pointed out, a little to convinced perhaps).

Ayetalam

01-29-2008, 10:22 PM

*EDITED for content*

Xxpect

01-29-2008, 11:30 PM

*EDITED for content*

Revolutionomni

01-30-2008, 12:36 AM

Disciple of Pain (Torturer) (http://www.eilistraee.com/%7Etrueblood/careers/Torturer.htm) + Druchii Anointed (http://www.eilistraee.com/%7Etrueblood/careers/Anointed.htm) = :twisted:

I like the introduction of the Anointed most but the overall description of the Disciple of Pain (DoP) more. I think the DoP really brings out both the feel and mechanics of the class, while the Anointed helps deliver a great introduction to the new fluff that the Disciple brings to Warhammer.

To me, playing WAR is about, if nothing else, two things - 1: Playing an attractive MMO with solid game-play. 2: An epic and mature fantasy story that's being translated into game-play as seamlessly as possible.

Great work, and in my eyes at least, I'll see them as the: Druchii Anointed Disciple of Pain!!one!!1!! ;)

Ganymed

01-30-2008, 02:51 AM

*EDITED for content*

Ayetalam

01-30-2008, 03:13 AM

*EDITED for content*

Xurré

01-30-2008, 04:08 AM

Hopefully I have addressed most of your points, as you did not do the same courtesy for me, and just nit picked specifics. Chances are if I see a repeat in your posts, I just wont respond to you seriously.
Alright, that does it. I didn’t want to do this, but let me reply to this and several related points people are bringing up here once and for all. And only once; I will not respond to anything that has nothing to do with the topic of the thread again and ask others to do likewise.

I didn’t reply to most of your points because most of your post had absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread: the discussion of possible Disciple alternatives. Most of your post seemed attacks at my person, attacks at my writing, attacks at the ideas I posted (as opposed to discussing them), attacks at people in general who don’t like the Disciple of Khaine, continued cries to shut up and general attempts to get the thread locked* by trying to provoke people. Now I can take all that and am perfectly willing to discuss it; just not in this thread which is already a somewhat volatile issue.

Do note that the thread was doing just fine, was perfectly positive and constructive, until you particularly decided to let go with a wave of negativity at just the mere topic being discussed. If you don’t like people talking about it then stay out of it.

People telling me to just let it go and accept the Disciple isn’t going to work any more than me telling people to just stop supporting/playing the class. You (the general you) don’t’ find it reasonable of me telling you to just not play the class (and thus I don’t tell you that) and I don’t find it reasonable of you to tell me to just accept it (and yet you do). This thread is an attempt to honestly look at ways we could deal with it. And yes, of course there is the hope that EA Mythic will see it and think to themselves “they’re right, we can change the background of the class to one of these other cool ideas while completely maintaining their gameplay and look, making everyone happy and putting this issue to rest.” Will they do that? Probably not as I’m certain there’ll be many things they’ll do that people don’t agree with. But at least the suggestions are there for them and if nothing else these ideas give us a way of dealing with them ingame, of allowing us to roleplay the Warhammer universe like we want it to be.

Even if roleplaying is completely adapting to whatever setting developers throw at you, and I’m not in the least convinced that it is, that doesn’t mean that there can’t be the preference for the setting to be different. I don’t roleplay in WoW (for example) because I don’t like the setting; I’d like to like the Warhammer setting enough to roleplay in and it was that before the Disciple of Khaine.

Now can we please drop this or at the very least take it somewhere else? Again, I’ve got forums where I’m perfectly willing to discuss any and all of this in detail if people truly feel the need to talk about it. I will not respond to anything on this subject again and ask that people not respond in this thread to what I wrote above.

Please drop it and let’s get back to discussing possible Disciple alternatives.

Aesthetics, purely aesthetics, although easy to include, most would not fit the eyes of molten brass, as other sets of eyes would make more sense. Like full black eyes for the torturer, or they have red pupils, make a bit more interesting. Soultakers would have grey or white eyes imo, which is my personal favorite, the molten brass felt new.
I’m not convinced in the least that other eye colours fit those classes better, though I’d be fine with the eye colour being changed. In fact I don’t think the colour fits the classes any worse than brass fits a follower of Khaine (for who completely blood-red eyes fit so much better).

Brass eyes would fit the Soultakers if Anchan-Rogar is a brass-coloured daemon (and since, as far as I know, no colour has been specified for the daemon I don’t see why it couldn’t be). Brass eyes fit the Torturer if their torture instruments are traditionally brass-coloured or just to mark them as particularly frightening. Anointed would fit brass coloured eyes just as well; who knows what things the Sorceresses do to them to make them how they are. And the Spiritwalkers fit brass eyes because that’s how they happen to be born; that the Autarii then decide to train them as their shamans is their business. For example. It seems to me that the colour fits all those four classes just fine.

Just like in my first post in this thread, medical knowledge is a given to torturers. But the one you have doesn't go much into are ways of a torturer, and didn't give them a good enough reason to heal or res.
They’re not just torturers though, they’re entertainers and interrogators. They’re more than just torturers with medical knowledge; they’ve perfected torturing to such a level that they’ve gained supernatural powers through it. They’re more than just torturers (and my mistake if that didn’t come across clearly in the descriptions); they’re absolute masters of pain.

You could have added so much to it, and done so many interesting things.
Then show me; tell me what could’ve been added and what interesting things could’ve been done with it. That is, after all, the very purpose of this thread.

I do not at all mean to be offensive, but your examples are a bit too watered down.
Well, then do you have any suggestions on how to improve these so that they wouldn’t feel so watered down to you? They don’t really feel that to me, so I’d love to hear how you would improve them. :)

Disciple of Pain (Torturer) (http://www.eilistraee.com/%7Etrueblood/careers/Torturer.htm) + Druchii Anointed (http://www.eilistraee.com/%7Etrueblood/careers/Anointed.htm) = :twisted:

I like the introduction of the Anointed most but the overall description of the Disciple of Pain (DoP) more. I think the DoP really brings out both the feel and mechanics of the class, while the Anointed helps deliver a great introduction to the new fluff that the Disciple brings to Warhammer.

To me, playing WAR is about, if nothing else, two things - 1: Playing an attractive MMO with solid game-play. 2: An epic and mature fantasy story that's being translated into game-play as seamlessly as possible.

Great work, and in my eyes at least, I'll see them as the: Druchii Anointed Disciple of Pain!!one!!1!! ;)
Heheh, now there’s a thought. And I can definitely see it work; there’s no reason why those magically able torturers could be the product of the Sorceress Convents’ secret experimentations. Though the question is, would you call that an “Anointed”, a “Torturer” or something else? :)

- Xurré

* I’ll add this for the moderators… This seems to be an ever increasing tendency on these forums where people who are unhappy with certain topics being discussed trying to get them locked by making insulting posts skirting the edges of what’s allowed. Particularly with topics such as these where the general perception seems to be that the moderators are all too eager to find any excuse to lock the threads themselves. And I would say again, as I have in the past, that this is far more destructive to a forum than even just letting things go unchecked. If there are problems in a thread, deal with the problem posts and not with the thread in its entirety as that’s just giving posters the power to decide which threads to get locked and which not. Again note that the discussion was perfectly fine until some posters decided to show how much issue they take with the topic being discussed at all.

Zunjin

01-30-2008, 05:57 AM

Browncoat-WHA

01-30-2008, 06:12 AM

* I’ll add this for the moderators… This seems to be an ever increasing tendency on these forums where people who are unhappy with certain topics being discussed trying to get them locked by making insulting posts skirting the edges of what’s allowed. Particularly with topics such as these where the general perception seems to be that the moderators are all too eager to find any excuse to lock the threads themselves. And I would say again, as I have in the past, that this is far more destructive to a forum than even just letting things go unchecked. If there are problems in a thread, deal with the problem posts and not with the thread in its entirety as that’s just giving posters the power to decide which threads to get locked and which not. Again note that the discussion was perfectly fine until some posters decided to show how much issue they take with the topic being discussed at all.

A few notes...

-There is a distinct difference between purposeful trolling to get a thread locked, and honest exasperation over a topic that is discussed. In many cases, the difference is extremely easy to see. If you think there is a post which is trying to do this, use report post.

-If you are going to state that as moderators, we are biased, please take it to an administrator. When you do so, please look at the posting history of the moderator(s) in question and provide clear examples of moderator bias so as to provide the administrator with a better idea of what you are talking about.

-If I seem "eager" to lock a topic, it is only because the ideal situation is that moderators are background noise. As moderators, we don't want to have to constantly moderate threads, issue infractions, and have to sit over people's shoulders. To make a comparison to other race forums, I also look in Empire forums, and the regular posters in that forum require less attention than the ones here, for a variety of reasons.

-The creation and discussion of powderkeg topics or constant controversy due to the fact that some people are unable to hit "report post" rather than rise to the bait of a post they dislike is disappointing.

-You would be surprised how many threads which have moderation done to them are the result of your peers (sometimes those who you do not expect) submitting reports rather than our intervention.

The cliff's notes:
-USE REPORT POST to report unproductive, trolling, flaming, or otherwise "against the forum rules" posts. Do NOT take matters into your own hands. You will only derail the thread.
-Perceptions of moderator bias should be taken to an administrator.
-This thread will be closed if the participants cannot discuss productively. Last warning.
-If you further issues with moderation policy, PM an admin. Discussion of moderation policy on specific threads and posts is not allowed due to derailment of threads.

Sindal

01-30-2008, 06:59 AM

I pretty much have avoided posting for a while now, just been enjoying reading the boards etc and helping get by guild site ready, recruitment etc.

However I felt like possibly I would like to respond to this thread. First of all I understand and respect where you are coming from Xurre and I like the intro you wrote explaining your intent, however unfortunately people are forever going to be biased against you whenever you bring up the disciple, in the same manor that people were biased against me when I tried to discuss why I thought the Sorc would make a better ranged dps. No one could look at my posts with a non biased opinion because I was the "blood noob guy." The same has happened to you, not to mention a lot of people in this thread have not taken this the way you originally wrote it up.

Personally I can understand your not wanting to give up, stand up for your thoughts etc etc, however there comes a time when its best to let things go. Go check the hammerers forum. I don't think you find any threads on how it HAS to be slayers and this is blasphemy etc, though there were MANY more players upset with that choice then they are about the DoK choice I can promise that. Or what if some of the Assassin hopefuls continued to post the Witch Elf is a bad choice thread over and over in the Witch Elf forums STILL. At some point before launch you will probably have to accept the class and make peace with it, I would hate for you to ruin your game play experience over something like this.

I have seen all these ideas made in the past and commented on them as they were brought to the light in desperation. The annointed is a good idea if you can avoid Slaanesh I suppose, though how you manage to ignore Slaanesh in a Slaneeshi chosen is beyond me. The torturer is bad, just plain bad. I'm sorry but it makes little to no sense imo, what would a Black Orc do if you stabbed him... he would cut your head off. the end. Soulblade/ Harvester/death knight WHATEVER is a good idea, Ive said that in the past. Spirit master is way to much like a zealot to ever make it in, and he sure as hell would not wear that armor (but you've already covered that I know)

Finally, I understand you don't like the lore, but the lore can be changed. How will you feel if the DoK is included in the next army book, are you going to be on druchii.net 24/7 trying to get people not to buy them? All accounts is that the DoK is an amazing class that EXPANDS on the current lore of the druchii, not minimizes it, not abolishes it, but expands it. The druchii have needed a more powerful singular unit for a long time now, perhaps the DoK can fulfill the roll the Annointed fulfills for the Slannesh druchii army.

Finally the DoK is likely to be the most played healing class on destruction by far. Many people have come to love that blood red armor and those nasty chalices so while I can see your post and understand the what if and take it from a prov of fun, others may not be so capable.

Hopefully this thread doesn't get locked because its one of the few that hasn't gotten way out of hand in a hurry, though I must agree.

A dead horse dressed real pretty is still a dead horse

Xurré

01-30-2008, 07:19 AM

I have seen all these ideas made in the past and commented on them as they were brought to the light in desperation.
Yeah, I know. None of them were truly new. I’ve just sharpened them up some (I think) and posted a separate discussion on them because they tended to get snowed under by the discussions they were mentioned in. Ironic how that still seems to happen.

The annointed is a good idea if you can avoid Slaanesh I suppose, though how you manage to ignore Slaanesh in a Slaneeshi chosen is beyond me.
Pretty much in the same way as how EA Mythic is ignoring the ties the Convents have to the Cult of Slaanesh; by pretending it isn’t there. The Sorceresses and the Anointed themselves are keeping quiet about that little ‘detail’ since it would cause way too much trouble. And if players aren’t aware that they’re based on a Slaaneshi chosen then that’s really for the better.

The torturer is bad, just plain bad. I'm sorry but it makes little to no sense imo, what would a Black Orc do if you stabbed him... he would cut your head off. the end.
Why would the Torturer stab the Black Orc to begin with? The Torturer would stab Dwarfs (and what not), which is certainly something the Black Orc should agree with, and then uses the essence gained from that stabbing to aid the Black Orc (without stabbing the Orc).

Soulblade/ Harvester/death knight WHATEVER is a good idea, Ive said that in the past.
Thanks. :)

Spirit master is way to much like a zealot to ever make it in, and he sure as hell would not wear that armor (but you've already covered that I know)
Probably, yes. Though one could argue that the Zealot (being a shaman) is too much like the Goblin Shaman. I think the two can be clearly different, with the Zealot more being a crazed cultist and the Spiritwalker more being a Druidic Mystic.

I agree though that the armour doesn’t really fit them. Then again, who’s to say that they’re not gifted with more armour by their tribe or such… simply because most druidic classes tend to wear natural clothes doesn’t mean that the Druchii, who tend to turn everything upside down a bit, would do the same.

- Xurré

damsel

01-30-2008, 08:05 AM

NOTE: I edited the previous message

Xurre, I can't seem to find anything much relating to Anchor'Rogar (Disiciple of Souls)

Like, I found a lot of sorc spells

but what exactly are:

1. What does he look like
2. How powerful of Deamon is he
3. Which god is he under, if any?
4. Deamonic magic seems to be fine line with dark elf culture (Malkeith himself banned the cult of slaanesh as well as using a Deamon of Slaanesh in a war) so how do you see the DoS walking that line?

damsel

01-30-2008, 08:22 AM

I have seen all these ideas made in the past and commented on them as they were brought to the light in desperation. The annointed is a good idea if you can avoid Slaanesh I suppose, though how you manage to ignore Slaanesh in a Slaneeshi chosen is beyond me.

I would imagine the same way morathi, the leader of teh Slaanesh cult has avoided being connected with slaanesh, or the Sorc covens who have been hinted at being linked to slaanesh several times, avoid being linked to slaanesh. Subtle hints, it really gives a oooooh aaaaaahh feeling to the IP (this is one huge advantage I think xurre's form of annointed has over the DoK, who honestly story is limited to Khaine, Khaine, khaine, more khaine, more khaine, and a dash of khaine...just like witch elfs, who are khaine khaine khaine khaine khaine..)

The torturer is bad, just plain bad. I'm sorry but it makes little to no sense imo, what would a Black Orc do if you stabbed him... he would cut your head off. the end.

I believe the tortuerer is said to use magical sources to heal with, instead of physical. They are elfs after all, People said "magical healing" several times, there is no need to get in melee range

Soulblade/ Harvester/death knight WHATEVER is a good idea I think that as wel. Mythic could even delve more in to Anchor'rogar or whatever his name is. Seems like a demon close to Sorcs, but he is rather ambiguous with limited story around the guy.

Ive said that in the past. Spirit master is way to much like a zealot to ever make it in, and he sure as hell would not wear that armor (but you've already covered that I know)
I think a clear distinction could be made between the zealot and the Spirit master/walker/whatever. First, The zealot has well...a zealous apperance. They could give the spirit master a more refined look. Another advantage (as you mentioned in your post earlier, but I refuse to comment upon it to try and drive this post away from ban-hammer land) that the Spirit Master has, is that he can acquire traits of Shades AND assasins to please those who miss RPing a Shade/assasin because of witch elfs. Being raised by Shades, being shades themselves, but their eyes of molten brass marking them at birth has also had them trained with mastery of the Spirits of the world whom they use to restore life to their fellow warriors. Really awesom concept, and would make a Melee healer who isn't a religious zealot *cough*

Although, if you want to get picky, Zealots have a shamanistic thing going, shamans well of course gettting a shamanistic thing going on. Mythic has already crossed ground there but no one complained because goblin doesn't look like a Human, same could be done for the SPirit master and Zealot.

Hedley

01-30-2008, 08:45 AM

*EDITED for content*

Ayetalam

01-30-2008, 09:45 AM

*EDITED for content*

Hedley

01-30-2008, 09:55 AM

*EDITED for content*

damsel

01-30-2008, 09:57 AM

Ethandril

01-30-2008, 10:39 AM

First, I want to honour your efforts Xurrè for posting Alternatives for the Background of
the Disciple. I have read your first post a few times, before I decided to comment them.

Disciple of Souls (Soultaker)

Soultakers (named after one of the ritual blades Druchii nobles carry) are dark elf mages specializing in soul stealing magic. In their efforts to gain greater mastery over the daemon-crawler Anchan-Rogar they have found that the best way to steal their enemies’ souls through enchanted blades and magical relics. Thus these mages have adopted martial training and started wearing armour, becoming battle mages capable of using their foes’ very being against them. And as the centuries passed in secret study and training, secret experimentation, they’ve uncovered a great variety of uses to this energy they have the daemon crawler collect for them, from closing wounds and giving strength to even bringing back the dead, having the daemon restore the souls of the fallen with the souls of the slain. Thus the Soultakers, or Disciples of Souls, are true Druchii, enslaving even the powerful daemon to do their will.

The Name "Disciples of Souls" doesn't fit, Soultaker sounds better, but still not a perfect
name for the ability above, but thats just a minor issue about it.
Maybe "Conqueror of Souls" would be the right name for them, since they
command a deamon and overmaster the energy of souls.
What I don't see, is real purpose for martial training and better armor. They are mages,
why should they use a weapon for stealing a soul, when they can use the Dark Magic
after all..., but again, it's not a big issue, since we have male sorcerers ;).

The real question is, would I play a "Conqueror of Souls"? To be honest, no I wouldn't
play this class. It doesn't fit my perception of a melee healer. Sorry.

Disciple of Pain (Torturer)

All Druchii enjoy inflicting pain and suffering on others, but a few have gained such mastery over pain that they can use it to achieve wondrous effects. In ages past they have found that through their torture their can take the essence of their victims and use it against them, healing their wounds just so that they can be tortured again and taking their victims well past the boundaries their bodies and minds would otherwise be able to endure. The most powerful have even been able to bring their victims back from the dead, allowing tem to correct the mistake of certain over-zealous torture. Some of these Disciple of Pain work as interrogators, getting information from high-profile slaves and criminal Druchii alike. Others work as entertainers, asking exorbitant prices for their performances of pain and suffering in the decadent Flesh Houses of the Druchii, a few even giving private performances for noble lords. But they are most at home on the battlefield where they know to strike the most painful spots on their enemies and use the essence they gain to aid their allies. The enemy soon learns: facing a Torturer on the battlefield means every hit deals excruciating pain and every battle is a hell of untold suffering.

Your idea of the Torturer sounds interesting, it would be a nice melee DPS class to play
instead of a melee healer. :D

Druchii Anointed

As the Witch King declared war on Ulthuan once again the Sorceress Convents revealed a surprise: warriors of great martial prowess and dark magical might. According to the Sorceresses these Anointed were the result of experiments to fuse the physical with the mental, experiments with great cost as most Druchii undergoing the process died. But those few who lived were a force of death, bestowing dark gifts on the armies of the Witch King. These Anointed seem the cruellest of the cruel, taking great pleasure in inflicting pain on their enemies and even seemingly finding enjoyment in getting hurt themselves, making them a near unstoppable dealer of death. So perhaps it is no surprise that every day scores of weak Druchii flock toward the Convents to themselves get turned into Anointed, only to end up as bodies for their experimentations, for the true secret of the Anointed the Sorceress are keeping carefully hidden.

The Anointed is simlar to the Soultaker and as Revolutionomni said, a combination
of them would be bad , but in my opinion not for a melee healer. Sorry.

Spiritwalker

The Shades are a strange and secretive lot with customs strange to most city-born Druchii. As such it is no surprise that most Druchii don’t know of the shamans of these mountain tribes who walk the edges of the Chaos Wastes, conversing with spirits and lost in the mad visions of Chaos seeping through. They have learned to converse with and control the spirits of all things living and dead and can use them for their own end, use them to aid their tribe. Because of the danger of the Blackspire Mountains they’re skilled warriors out of necessity, having learned to draw spirits from their foes through their blackrock blades. Now, with the Druchii going to war, they have hired themselves out to the Witch King’s armies, extending their dark blessing over the Druchii troops.

Hm, the Spiritwalker, hm... actually, I like this idea!
They could be a bit of outcasts in the Druchii-society and where they live, they need
good fighting skills and healing abilites (which is the reason for their status).
It also plausible, why they joined the Witch King's army, just to proof their loyality to
Malekith.
Sure, they have a shaman-aspect, but they don't need to change the current Armor of
the Disciple, maybe some changes here and there, but overall they could be real
melee healers! :cool:

...And I feel the need to once again urge to leave the current Disciple out of this as much as possible ...

In honour of your efforts, I won't post a single word why the current Disciple of Khaine
is the ultimate melee healer in my opinion, even when they doesn't fit in the current Lore.

Anglakhel

01-30-2008, 11:36 AM

I think the developers are trying to keep Slaanesh out of the picture for player controlled characters. Dark Elf society, and particularly the Convents, give secret worship to Slaanesh. I fully expect that we will see dramatic plotlines in the game that deal with the corrupting influence of Slaanesh in Dark Elf culture, but they didn't want it an active part of the Career backgrounds.

Allowing players to play Sorceresses which are more likely to be involved with the Cult of Pleasure is one thing. Nothing states that Sorceresses have to be involved in the Cult. It's just more widespread within the Convents than without. But creating a Career based on Slaanesh is quite another thing. Creating a Chosen of Slaanesh, even if you strip out the references to Slaanesh, takes the Cult of Pleasure into the forefront of attention. So, either you have to deal with the Cult of Pleasure, or you ignore Slaanesh and cheapen the lore and influence of Slaanesh that already exists in the Warhammer setting. I thought the point of this thread was to give greater respect to the existing TT lore?

Personally, I saw some compelling arguments to make the Cult of Pleasure a more central force and utilize some of the Storm of Chaos plotline to have the Dark Elves teetering on civil war with the recent ascension of the Cult. But there isn't a great way to involve the Cult of Pleasure without pushing the game rating. I much prefer we see Slaanesh used selectively as a background narrative element to drive overall story conflict than see a weakened and diluted version of Slaanesh paraded around in a career background.

Ayetalam

01-30-2008, 11:38 AM

...And I feel the need to once again urge to leave the current Disciple out of this as much as possible ...

The problem with that is this is the Disciple of Khaine forums. If it doesn't pertain to the Disciple of Khaine or allow discussion of it, then its not supposed to be in this forum. If you wish post these kinds of things in the main Dark Elf forum, but It will be moved here most likely because its about the disciple. So if its in this forum, you can't restrict the discussion of the Disciple in this topic, because this forum is made for the discussion of the Disciple, not his alternatives. Im ok with the discussion of the alternatives, but not allowing the current Disciple in the topic, defeats the purpose of this forum and the discussion it was made for.

So you are in a pickle. Either allow the discussion of Disciples, or dont post at all, because stopping the discussion of the Disciple in the Disciple forums is contradictory.it also defeats the purpose of this thread. We discuss the alternatives, but we can't discuss the thing they are alternatives for, so anyone that is against the ideas of this thread can't contribute properly to the discussion because its biased.

Lord Tareq

01-30-2008, 01:00 PM

The problem with that is this is the Disciple of Khaine forums. If it doesn't pertain to the Disciple of Khaine or allow discussion of it, then its not supposed to be in this forum. If you wish post these kinds of things in the main Dark Elf forum, but It will be moved here most likely because its about the disciple. So if its in this forum, you can't restrict the discussion of the Disciple in this topic, because this forum is made for the discussion of the Disciple, not his alternatives. Im ok with the discussion of the alternatives, but not allowing the current Disciple in the topic, defeats the purpose of this forum and the discussion it was made for.

So you are in a pickle. Either allow the discussion of Disciples, or dont post at all, because stopping the discussion of the Disciple in the Disciple forums is contradictory.it also defeats the purpose of this thread. We discuss the alternatives, but we can't discuss the thing they are alternatives for, so anyone that is against the ideas of this thread can't contribute properly to the discussion because its biased.

Nonsense, this topic is about alternatives for the Disciple of Khaine (thus its in the right forum), but its not about the Disciple of Khaine itself. (thus the request not to post here about the Disciple of Khaine). There is a reason half your posts in this topic are *EDITED for content*, perhaps you should take notice and go on-topic.

I'm quite disappointed to see so many people seeming actively trying to get this topic locked. It has some interesting suggestions for roleplayers, and provides a nice framework for them to base their disciple on. I feel some people are seeing way too much in it, as if its some kind of attack on their beloved Disciple of Khaine.

Sinfjotle

01-30-2008, 02:14 PM

Don't feel like having it all~

I actually kind of like the fact that it isn't so generic that you see it as a melee healer within .2 seconds and it has a unique flair that I've never seen in another game before. Especially torturer.

And Torturer would lose that unique flair if it wasn't a melee healer.

Zeldias

01-30-2008, 02:19 PM

Nonsense, this topic is about alternatives for the Disciple of Khaine (thus its in the right forum), but its not about the Disciple of Khaine itself. (thus the request not to post here about the Disciple of Khaine). There is a reason half your posts in this topic are *EDITED for content*, perhaps you should take notice and go on-topic.

I'm quite disappointed to see so many people seeming actively trying to get this topic locked. It has some interesting suggestions for roleplayers, and provides a nice framework for them to base their disciple on. I feel some people are seeing way too much in it, as if its some kind of attack on their beloved Disciple of Khaine.

I agree that they're interesting ways one can RP as a Disciple of Khaine without being all up in the Church, but I don't think we should be calling them alternatives to the Disciple of Khaine in that case, you know? Sounds more like it ought to be in my "How will you RP your Disciple?" thread.

The reason folks want this locked, I think, is because it's kind of...Say I have an Xbox 360, and my friend has a PS3. He's unhappy with the PS3, but he can't get rid of it. So instead, he comes to me and talks smack about my 360 and talks about how there's so many things better, while I'm just there, trying hard to be happy with my 360. It feels like folks who are posting in the DoK forum about how the DoK should be replaced or the developers ought to put in X alternative class are just trying to rain on the parade. I don't care about the posts being made, because I'm certain they're going to die out eventually; I'd really just like to not see them in the Disciple forum. Sure, you might say that it's a thread pertaining to Disciples and thus belongs here, but if it ultimately just rains on the parade of everyone who's happy about the class, then that seems kind of trollish, even if that's not the intent. Outside of the Disciple forum, though? Like, in the general Dark Elf Army forum, I wouldn't mind it at all.

I just wish folks would quit trying so hard to piss in my cereal and let me enjoy my Frosted Flakes.

krogg

01-30-2008, 05:11 PM

Then play a Witch Elf.

I'll stick to the Disciple of Khaine, thank you very much. :)

At Xurre:

I don't really know what else to add to the alternatives you've given. They aren't bad. I just feel that it isn't on par with the DoK.

The selling points for me personally are:
1. Survivor of Death Night.
2. Eyes of Molten Brass.
3. Masters of death.
4. Religious Fanaticism.
5. The "Shepherd for Khaine's souls" factor.
5. The "I can own your face or have someone else own your face for me" factor.

I think those tie in so well with the current iteration of the class. I only mention it because this is what these alternatives try to compare to.

Nonsense, this topic is about alternatives for the Disciple of Khaine (thus its in the right forum), but its not about the Disciple of Khaine itself. (thus the request not to post here about the Disciple of Khaine). There is a reason half your posts in this topic are *EDITED for content*, perhaps you should take notice and go on-topic.

I'm quite disappointed to see so many people seeming actively trying to get this topic locked. It has some interesting suggestions for roleplayers, and provides a nice framework for them to base their disciple on. I feel some people are seeing way too much in it, as if its some kind of attack on their beloved Disciple of Khaine.

Nonsense is when you do not allow the discussion/mention of a class with in it's own forum. The Disciple has its name on this forum for pete's sake. What more do you want?

I just wish folks would quit trying so hard to piss in my cereal and let me enjoy my Frosted Flakes.

Agreed.

damsel

01-30-2008, 09:20 PM

I'll stick to the Disciple of Khaine, thank you very much. :)

At Xurre:

I don't really know what else to add to the alternatives you've given. They aren't bad. I just feel that it isn't on par with the DoK.

The selling points for me personally are:
1. Survivor of Death Night.
2. Eyes of Molten Brass.
3. Masters of death.
4. Religious Fanaticism.
5. The "Shepherd for Khaine's souls" factor.
6. The "I can own your face or have someone else own your face for me" factor.

I think those tie in so well with the current iteration of the class. I only mention it because this is what these alternatives try to compare to.
.

I honestly don't see why people claim to like these points as I see most of them as taken from other classes and other parts of lore (minus #2...which I see as very limited aesthetically). I just brought this up because I would like to point out that any class should have number 6 (repeat #5...) These weird ideas of grandeour that the DoK will be Overpowered (essentially what you are saying) are very misguided and I am seeing quite a LOT of that on this forum. You DoK fans seem to think you are a Witch elf + healing...but game balance really can't allow this (although the discription of the true chosen is misguiding....)

for instance, a competing list of "cool factors" for lets say a Annointed

1. Survivor of the dark mysterious rituals of the sorcerous covens
2. Masters of Magic, this power infused into their very essence
3. Devoted members of the covens who carry out their dark plans ruthlessly
4. The entire "are they really slaanesh worshippers or not" factor
5. The brass eyes....(seriously this could be added to almost any classes background...it is just kinda shoved in, I fail to see the uniqueness, and most likely will be hard to even freaken see in 10v10 battles)
6. The "I can own your face or have someone else own your face for me" factor

Hey lets do one for the Disciple of souls (soul blade, soul taker, etc)

1. Masters of the powerful and mysterious deamon Anchor'Rogar (or is he their master? :-) )
2. Brass molten eyes given to them through their tedious training and mastery of souls and the Deamon arts
3. highly trained warriors of the covens
4. walking the line between deamonic chaos zealot and loyal follower of Maelkeith
5. Playing with the souls of others to do both their bidding and killing
6. The "I can own your face or have someone else own your face for me" factor

.....etc

If you saw what I did...any class has 5-6 Cool factors that you can throw in there that can make it unique

Honestly, lets talk about the DoK alternatives, this is the DoK forum, therefore DoK alternatives would belong here, both for RPers and hopefully ideas for mythic.

So can we get back to topic, I brought up some topics, that are on-topic...but they seem to be ignored

I just wish folks would quit trying so hard to piss in my cereal and let me enjoy my Frosted Flakes.

I will if you guys realize that your frosted flakes have this weird smell coming of them that is making my biscuit taste funcky, but this different box of cereal doesn't have this smell, so if you would eat that cereal we could have our biscuit, you your cereal..heck we may have some of that cereal to...........and everyone would be happy..er

If anything, a lot of the DoK conversation has been one side trying to compromise while the other won't accept any changes (because this side has gotten what they want...although majority do not care about the things the compromising side wants), this is at least my humble take on it...and I could be very well wrong.

even when they doesn't fit in the current Lore.

I applaud you for being pro DoK but at least giving those with issues that one point (sorry for aside, but that discussion (the dead horse topic that shall not be named) needed for people to be more cooperative imho)

Hedley

01-31-2008, 03:00 AM

I will if you guys realize that your frosted flakes have this weird smell coming of them that is making my biscuit taste funcky, but this different box of cereal doesn't have this smell, so if you would eat that cereal we could have our biscuit, you your cereal..heck we may have some of that cereal to...........and everyone would be happy..er

If anything, a lot of the DoK conversation has been one side trying to compromise while the other won't accept any changes (because this side has gotten what they want...although majority do not care about the things the compromising side wants), this is at least my humble take on it...and I could be very well wrong.

QFTMFT

(10 characters)

Xurré

01-31-2008, 04:02 AM

I was wondering what peoples idea's for the

Disciple of Pain (torturer) (http://www.eilistraee.com/%7Etrueblood/careers/Torturer.htm)

was for the weapons. I am not sure a chalice fits them. I could most assuredly see twin ritual blades working for all classes. I am not sure though a chalice would work with the DoP. Maybe they could add some Needle like objects, maybe a staff like object (handle big as some of the chalice handles seen in the DoK concept art) but instead have a Long needle tip at the end, and place some wicked runes on the staff. I think that would look really cool, maybe put multiple needles etc. Have that be a Siphoning tool, where they siphon of their victims energy which is both painful and deadly (sometimes the most painful thing isn't neccesarily the most leathal) but magically poison tiped needles draining your essence outs seems deadly...and most assuredly painful.

Although, I think maybe they could modify the chalice to work possibly by making the spikes already there longer, and just cutting out the bowl model, giving like a Circular patterned arangment of 4 needles on a staff to allow easy wielding.
To be honest I’m somewhat hesitant to change anything about the alternatives, even the weapons, as the more you change them away from the current implementation of the class the less likely the chance that it’ll actually be implemented. So I’d rather try and explain how it would fit. Perhaps it’s a sign of their station, or perhaps they use the chalice in their torturing. Or perhaps it’s simply a prop they use as entertainers, something that is mostly to look interesting (much like a magician’s wand might be).

Still, if I had my way I’d probably radically change their weapons to something other than having yet another elf class using bladed weapons. And even if keeping the swords then I’d change the chalice at least. I quite like your idea of removing the bowl and making it an instrument of 4 long needles on a staff. The needles would work very well to torture (and can be imagined to draw out a victim’s essence between/through the needles) and the staff would, in their practices, work as a bludgeon.

Still, I can see a chalice having a somewhat similar function.

The Name "Disciples of Souls" doesn't fit, Soultaker sounds better, but still not a perfect
name for the ability above, but thats just a minor issue about it.
Maybe "Conqueror of Souls" would be the right name for them, since they
command a deamon and overmaster the energy of souls.
“Conqueror of Souls” works well enough for me. I’ve also considered something like “Disciple of Anchan-Rogar”, though that has a few drawbacks I’m not too happy about. It makes them sound subservient to the daemon and that just doesn’t seem to fit the Druchii to me; dark elves subjugate mortals, daemons and gods alike to their will, not the other way around. And it is a name which doesn’t mean anything to most people. Then again that would allow EA Mythic to be creative with the entity and do all kinds of fun and interesting things with it. Who knows; the daemon might actually be one of Khaine’s pets or such, responsible of bringing the souls of the murdered to Khaine’s realm. Then the class wouldn’t be directly religious but still maintain much of what some have noted they like about the Disciple of Khaine (like “shepherd of souls”). Heck, how about we name them “Shepherds of Souls”. :p

What I don't see, is real purpose for martial training and better armor. They are mages,
why should they use a weapon for stealing a soul, when they can use the Dark Magic
after all..., but again, it's not a big issue, since we have male sorcerers ;).
The idea is that these mages, in their study, have found that the best way to extract souls from someone is through enchanted steel. Much like how electricity is best conducted through certain metals. And as such, over the centuries, these mages started to include martial training so that they could extract these souls by hitting enemies with this enchanted steel in combat (and when you fight with steel you might as well make it sharp). So over the centuries (of not millennia) they changed from pure mages into warrior mages, using weapons and armour and spells alike.

Or something along those lines. ;)

Hm, the Spiritwalker, hm... actually, I like this idea!
They could be a bit of outcasts in the Druchii-society and where they live, they need
good fighting skills and healing abilites (which is the reason for their status).
It also plausible, why they joined the Witch King's army, just to proof their loyality to
Malekith.
Sure, they have a shaman-aspect, but they don't need to change the current Armor of
the Disciple, maybe some changes here and there, but overall they could be real
melee healers! :cool:
I’m glad you like it. I’m teetering back and forth a bit between feeling they should look like typical druid and thinking that the armoured warrior look would be a cool way to set them apart from your typical druids. It kinda makes sense to me that the Shade tribes would reserve armour for their most high-status members.

I also like your suggestion that they could be outcasts from Druchii society, now acting as mercenaries and having gained their abilities as a survival skill.

Seems that there’s just so many interesting directions one could take them in. :)

Nothing states that Sorceresses have to be involved in the Cult.
Well, nothing states that the Anointed have to be involved in the cult either. After all, the Sorceresses could actually be telling the truth and they are the result of magical experimentation.

Remember, Storm of Chaos doesn’t exist in WAR and as such the Anointed of Slaanesh as per Storm of Chaos doesn’t exist either. It’s just using the unit as reference for a class, keeping the things that work and not mentioning (though still keeping plausible) the parts that don’t. So you get the question “are they or aren’t they…?” Which in my view makes the class interesting.

- Xurré

Slash

01-31-2008, 04:58 AM

Disciple of Souls (Soultaker) (http://www.eilistraee.com/%7Etrueblood/careers/Soultaker.htm)

Soultakers (named after one of the ritual blades Druchii nobles carry) are dark elf mages specializing in soul stealing magic. In their efforts to gain greater mastery over the daemon-crawler Anchan-Rogar they have found that the best way to steal their enemies’ souls through enchanted blades and magical relics. Thus these mages have adopted martial training and started wearing armour, becoming battle mages capable of using their foes’ very being against them. And as the centuries passed in secret study and training, secret experimentation, they’ve uncovered a great variety of uses to this energy they have the daemon crawler collect for them, from closing wounds and giving strength to even bringing back the dead, having the daemon restore the souls of the fallen with the souls of the slain. Thus the Soultakers, or Disciples of Souls, are true Druchii, enslaving even the powerful daemon to do their will.

My favorite. It has amazing potential. As others have said; the name could be improved. However, what is in a name? At this stage it doesn't matter for much.

Disciple of Pain (Torturer) (http://www.eilistraee.com/%7Etrueblood/careers/Torturer.htm)

All Druchii enjoy inflicting pain and suffering on others, but a few have gained such mastery over pain that they can use it to achieve wondrous effects. In ages past they have found that through their torture their can take the essence of their victims and use it against them, healing their wounds just so that they can be tortured again and taking their victims well past the boundaries their bodies and minds would otherwise be able to endure. The most powerful have even been able to bring their victims back from the dead, allowing tem to correct the mistake of certain over-zealous torture. Some of these Disciple of Pain work as interrogators, getting information from high-profile slaves and criminal Druchii alike. Others work as entertainers, asking exorbitant prices for their performances of pain and suffering in the decadent Flesh Houses of the Druchii, a few even giving private performances for noble lords. But they are most at home on the battlefield where they know to strike the most painful spots on their enemies and use the essence they gain to aid their allies. The enemy soon learns: facing a Torturer on the battlefield means every hit deals excruciating pain and every battle is a hell of untold suffering.

I really like this one too. However, I do agree with some of the other posters, it is a tad similar to Witch Hunter. If we could work around that and develop it a bit more (perhaps all that is needed is an elaboration) it would be my favorite :mrgreen:

Druchii Anointed (http://www.eilistraee.com/%7Etrueblood/careers/Anointed.htm)

As the Witch King declared war on Ulthuan once again the Sorceress Convents revealed a surprise: warriors of great martial prowess and dark magical might. According to the Sorceresses these Anointed were the result of experiments to fuse the physical with the mental, experiments with great cost as most Druchii undergoing the process died. But those few who lived were a force of death, bestowing dark gifts on the armies of the Witch King. These Anointed seem the cruellest of the cruel, taking great pleasure in inflicting pain on their enemies and even seemingly finding enjoyment in getting hurt themselves, making them a near unstoppable dealer of death. So perhaps it is no surprise that every day scores of weak Druchii flock toward the Convents to themselves get turned into Anointed, only to end up as bodies for their experimentations, for the true secret of the Anointed the Sorceress are keeping carefully hidden.

Whilst I understand your motives behind removing (or evading) the Slannesh involvement. I think it takes away from the class. And while I would not like to see a Slannesh career be implemented, if they were to add the Anointed; for me it wouldn't do them justice not to be Slannesh.

Spiritwalker (http://www.eilistraee.com/%7Etrueblood/careers/Spiritwalker.htm)

The Shades are a strange and secretive lot with customs strange to most city-born Druchii. As such it is no surprise that most Druchii don’t know of the shamans of these mountain tribes who walk the edges of the Chaos Wastes, conversing with spirits and lost in the mad visions of Chaos seeping through. They have learned to converse with and control the spirits of all things living and dead and can use them for their own end, use them to aid their tribe. Because of the danger of the Blackspire Mountains they’re skilled warriors out of necessity, having learned to draw spirits from their foes through their blackrock blades. Now, with the Druchii going to war, they have hired themselves out to the Witch King’s armies, extending their dark blessing over the Druchii troops.

Another strong career Idea. I prefer some of the others, although this still looks very engaging and fun.

I hope this can lead to some interesting discussion. :)
And I hope people have the courtesy to continue to make interesting discussion and not troll for the sake of it. I see many *EDITED for content*'s.

Zoatibix

01-31-2008, 05:17 AM

I still think Soul Eater would be the coolest name.

RockpapperWaagh

01-31-2008, 07:28 AM

you see edited comments because people are getting really tired of their class getting attacked in their class forums.

you dont see any of the DoK players going "its 100% spot on with lore" no we see it for what it is. A comprimise by mythic to take several key elements that make several of the dark elf units cool and mash them into one class that has severe badassary.

Then being told not to discuss DoK's in the DoK forum is well..... silly.

The class is in, as is, its lore is now established. ITS ESTABLISHED warhammer online lore. All of the army books always tweek lore. WAR is just a bigger armybook, the lore has been tweeked so really we do want people to stop trying to pee in our frostedflakes. Without you urinating on them they taste just fine. We know they arnt name brand frosted flakes, but they are darn close and we think yummy. You dont like them, thats great, you dont have to play one. I dont (and never have) really liked the witch elves, sure they are a great piece of lore fluff and a centerpiece of many a dark elf army, but that doesnt mean i have to like them.

As for a "oh this is to help a DoK player have rp options. Well how would you like me to go "well i like corsairs better but they arnt in the game, so all you witch elf players should start roleplaying as corsairs since they are a missing element of the army." And I do this every day in your chosen class' forums. "oh but im just giving you alternitives while in other threads i preach about wanting your class removed."

To the "its suggestions for a new class" arguement. That goes in general dark elf army area not here.

So yes people are starting to just get frustrated because we acknowledge most the points are rather valid. But the other side doesn't seem to want to lok at anything that isnt 100% cannon. This shows a level of singlemindedness that cant be debated with.

IF YOU DONT LIKE OUR CLASS.... ignore our forums, feel free to not invite us to your guild on release, and explainit in your own head however you want. Just stop trying to piss in the cereal we happen to like.

Zunjin

01-31-2008, 07:49 AM

damsel

01-31-2008, 09:59 AM

I still think Soul Eater would be the coolest name.

the only issue I have with this particular name is that they aren't really eating the soul themselves, but feeding it to the deamon who they then use as a power source, without the deamon there soul-draining magic isn't complete.

Although, as xurre pointed out before, I don't like Disciple of Anchor'Rogar either

note: now i really wish mythic went with making a anchor'rogar based class

He has very little information about him and would be a great spot to expanded upon the lore without having to evolve it

Then being told not to discuss DoK's in the DoK forum is well..... silly.

you can talk about the disciple, that being possible alternatives, there are (or where) other threads to discuss his Lore, but this thread is about lore/"what if" of the alternative classes

But you can throw a temper tantrum about wanting to talk about Disciple lore (which is another off-topic post), I am sure the mods can assist you.

So yes people are starting to just get frustrated because we acknowledge most the points are rather valid. But the other side doesn't seem to want to lok at anything that isnt 100% cannon.

I think the issue is not that it isn't cannon, but rather it conflicts with what is cannon, but this is off-topic so that is all I am going to say

This shows a level of singlemindedness that cant be debated with.

The same could be said for (trying to) not allowing us to discuss possible alternatives and comprimises that would make both sides of the arguement happy

IF YOU DONT LIKE OUR CLASS.... ignore our forums

I am sure most people most people would except there is a issue with..

feel free to not invite us to your guild on release
removes another possible healer class and different class mechanics you are depriving your guild of that Mythic intended it to have, why shot yourself in the foot? Also this generally pisses people off about your guild, and well I like people and don't want to have to say "no' just because they rolled DoK, even though I have some issues with it.

and explainit in your own head however you want. Just stop trying to piss in the cereal we happen to like.

most of your suggestions, well it just so happens to piss in our cereal...if you insist on using such a vulgar metaphore...

There are alternatives that make us happy, and can make you just as happy, the DoK, as you said is a mesh of a lot of class's, if mythic would mesh them just a bit differently, we would have a class that looks just as awesom, has just as good of a game mechanic, but allows RPers to enjoy there story, and would, imho, make for a better in game plot, there are already issues of Disciple RP sounding like male Witch Elf RP........

Ayetalam

01-31-2008, 11:59 AM

most of your suggestions, well it just so happens to piss in our cereal...if you insist on using such a vulgar metaphore...

There are alternatives that make us happy, and can make you just as happy, the DoK, as you said is a mesh of a lot of class's, if mythic would mesh them just a bit differently, we would have a class that looks just as awesom, has just as good of a game mechanic, but allows RPers to enjoy there story, and would, imho, make for a better in game plot, there are already issues of Disciple RP sounding like male Witch Elf RP........

Thats the thing, your cereal is no longer being sold for consumption. Mythic is now selling one cereal. If you don't like it, don't eat it.

Also, the only reason you think it has issues, is because it changes the structure of the temple, which is vague to say the least. They finally add a bit more info on it, and now its blasphemic and bad. Maybe its how GW wants it. And sadly, you have to take it, since its GWs work. You can be mad all you want, boycott GW and Mythic, but it won't change their minds, because not many people care or see this change as a bad one. Only a select few do. If changing the Temple structure will bring them more money, they wont care who it pisses off, as long as they get more money.

damsel

01-31-2008, 12:09 PM

Thats the thing, your cereal is no longer being sold for consumption. Mythic is now selling one cereal. If you don't like it, don't eat it.

Last time I looked, when companies do something bad and people send them complaints they consider changing it, it is kinda how things work. So god forbid we use a fan-site that mythic employees read to complain about something we don't like

Other things that annoy me
1. Dwarf tractor
2. Chosen/marauder lacking ability to be girls
3. Mixed pve/ pvp Zones(non-DAOC set-up)
4. and the weakness of the CD

but, can we please get on topic, it is hard to talk with myself about classes

Zunjin

01-31-2008, 12:17 PM

nevermind post.

Ayetalam

01-31-2008, 12:47 PM

Last time I looked, when companies do something bad and people send them complaints they consider changing it, it is kinda how things work. So god forbid we use a fan-site that mythic employees read to complain about something we don't like

Other things that annoy me
1. Dwarf tractor
2. Chosen/marauder lacking ability to be girls
3. Mixed pve/ pvp Zones(non-DAOC set-up)
4. and the weakness of the CD

but, can we please get on topic, it is hard to talk with myself about classes

That list just helps show that they care to get more money, not follow the ore 100%.

If the demand for the game increases with Cereal A (DoK) and Cereal B gains little to no demand. Mythic will sell Cereal A and will save production costs on Cereal B. In the long run, Cereal A will cover the loss of Cereal B and still give them profit. So if they see as Cereal A as a bigger draw than Cereal B, they will go for it.

Just like the Dward Lolchair of Beer, and CD. One is for laughs and a good joke, the other is for balance. I personally love the Tractor, its amazing. Im going to roll a Dwarf just to get one. Me being Destruction and rolling a order character increases their money intake from me because I spend more time leveling and playing.

The male/female thing. I dont see it as that big of a problem. I mean my gf had her heart set on Maruader for ages, then they announced Male only. It didnt sway her. If people love the class enough, they will play it regardless of what it does. the DoK enhances the Temple lore (some see it as destroy temple lore but watever). I love it and makes me want to play it more, it enhances my gaming experience and many otehr peoples.

The mixed PVE/PVP zones are actually great, a good way to mix all aspects of play and make it an enjoyable game. This game was NOT made for RP. it was made for RVR battle, PVP, and PVE. RP is an afterthought to everything. If you haven't realized that by now, you should, cause you are in for more disappointment in the future.

Anglakhel

01-31-2008, 01:40 PM

I'd like to see this post get back on track in a productive fashion, but I have a couple recommendations to do so.

1) Stop posting to say you like or dislike the Disciple of Khaine. Stop making insulting comments about those that disagree with you, or insulting their opinions. They will draw responses that are off topic and ultimately cause this post to be locked like many before it.

2) Focus on providing Roleplay ALTERNATIVES to the Disciple of Khaine, rather than trying to REPLACE the Disciple of Khaine.

Trying to lead a campaign to remove the Disciple of Khaine from the game is not a productive thread on these forums, especially considering this specific forum is dedicated to the Disciple of Khaine. Trying to provide interesting Roleplay Alternatives and Options to players that don't like the lore of the Disciple of Khaine could be very productive.

Estebar provided an extremely constructive post previously in the general Dark Elf forum where he provided ideas on how to re-imagine each of the four Dark Elf Archetypes as Careers that serve the Cult of Pleasure. It was imaginative and interesting and provided options for players interested in exploring other facets of Dark Elf culture and society, all without disrespecting the lore being established for WAR.

This post could do the same thing if everyone would just step away from the Disciple of Khaine debate. The Disciple of Khaine is official lore for WAR.

Let the rotting horse be.

Now, I see plenty of reason to have a thread providing lore ideas and roleplay tools for interested players to play Disciples as something other than servants of Khaine, but only if that thread is honestly about providing alternatives to players and not just a continuation of the war on the very concept and career of the Disciple of Khaine.

If this topic can't be addressed in a mature fashion as roleplay alternatives and is really just another assault on the Disciple than I see no alternative than to lock it down like many before it.

Hopefully that is not the case. Hopefully the roleplayers out there in the community are genuinely interested in creating a deep and welcoming roleplay community for WAR and not just trying to score points in game that has already reached its conclusion.

RockpapperWaagh

01-31-2008, 02:37 PM

i appreciate what you say (not quting though since it was alot) however do you think the witch elf players would appreciate it if someone went in took the witch elf mechanic and went "um well here are rp alternitives so you dont have to be a witch elf." They would have a hissy fit.

From an unbiased source in a thread about roleplaying your DoK some of them might have some validity. But that isnt what this is. if you put a donkey in a pony show... its still a donkey. This thread is an attack on the DoK lore. so here I am discussing the alternitives, i don't like them because.

This thread and the others like it are about trying to get the DoK out of the temple of khaine. It might be well dolled up but its still about that.

The other thread about how all four classes could translate into the cult of slan(speliing) was a neat read, why, because it addressed all four classes in an unbiased way looking at the game through a perspective of another god that some Dark Elves follow.

I honestly would like to see the thread locked. its sponsored (and supported) by mostly those who hold that true blood link. A forum based around how the DoK should be replaced and is unacceptable as is. *shrugs* the whole thing reads as biased and trying to play the rules so the moderators dont lock it while still being able to go "validate my idea that the DoK shouldnt be as is"

damsel

01-31-2008, 06:31 PM

Creazil

01-31-2008, 07:37 PM

Sinfjotle

01-31-2008, 07:43 PM

But spelled it with a Z! What a hypocrite!

As for separating torturer idea from witch hunter, I don't see where they are all that similar, well besides that they both interrogate. I think the prime difference is Witch Hunters do it out of need where Torturers would do it for fun!

Creazil

01-31-2008, 07:49 PM

lol I always have trouble typing x's I think it's the rarity that they occur in words, my hands aren't well used to reaching down to those two letters thus when I have a reason to it always slips up, invariably, every time.

Ayetalam

01-31-2008, 09:00 PM

This thread is pointless now, I hope it is locked

You Avid DoK fans are unable to have a constructive conversation, because just one small question to the Consistency of the lore of the DoK, and the thread becomes a flame fest.

EDIT: and the amount of raw aggression you guys have towards xurre is staggering and rather disgusting, she may as well not post in this forum, god forbid someone have an opinion

It, honestly, seems like you guys are particularly sensitive to the subject

Honestly, the worst part of the DoK, is what mythic is turning the witch elf into to try and make the DoK seem unique in their bloodlust (Sneaky/dancy type fighters, rather than bloodthirsty murders)

And for this reason I will probably roll a goblin shaman now, and a Normal PvP server, I kinda wish I could of Rped with WAR, but it looks like that is just not the case

I don't want to have to be rude to someone because I don't like something Mythic did

We aren't sensitive, we are tired of it. We want to play the DoK with the way the lore is now, we dont want alternatives, we dont want torturers, we want the Disciple of Khaine the way the lore is written by Mythic. Thats why we become so antsy, we are just tired of a bunch of Witch Elf rpers running around in this forum spreading anti-disciple propaganda. Some do it to less of a degree than others. The reason Xurre gets the gist of it is because she is the one that constantly pushes for the change to the class, or alternatives. She started the whole True Blood movement, she is the one writing 10 page essays saying that the Disciple lore should be changed in every way possible just because a few people don't like it. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean others don't aswell. We don't want to be told how to RP and play our characters. If you don't like the lore, change it for your character. Look at the Disciples as underlings that know nothing and you still have your power. Its your choice how to RP your character, but constantly pushing for alternatives publicly, pushing for the change of the lore that others actually like is the main reason we constantly fight about it, because its a DEAD HORSE that we actually want to bury and leave alone.

Trust me, if this is enough to get you to think about playing a shaman, then i say make the switch now, because the information that will be released in the future will utterly disgust you.

krogg

01-31-2008, 09:59 PM

I honestly don't see why people claim to like these points as I see most of them as taken from other classes and other parts of lore (minus #2...which I see as very limited aesthetically). I just brought this up because I would like to point out that any class should have number 6 (repeat #5...) These weird ideas of grandeour that the DoK will be Overpowered (essentially what you are saying) are very misguided and I am seeing quite a LOT of that on this forum. You DoK fans seem to think you are a Witch elf + healing...but game balance really can't allow this (although the discription of the true chosen is misguiding....)

If you saw what I did...any class has 5-6 Cool factors that you can throw in there that can make it unique

Honestly, lets talk about the DoK alternatives, this is the DoK forum, therefore DoK alternatives would belong here, both for RPers and hopefully ideas for mythic.

So can we get back to topic, I brought up some topics, that are on-topic...but they seem to be ignored

I like the Disciple better than these alternatives. Thats all I'm saying, really. I gave MY PERSONAL selling points just because, I think, they tie in so well with the Disciple.

No, I don't think the Disciple will be overpowered. I don't think anyone does. I think you think that your thoughts are better than everyone elses and that your conclusions that this class will be not be overpowered is your own personl realization.

Let me repeat, I don't think the DoK will be overpowered. I don't think anyone does.

Will they have higher DPS than the WE? Maybe, we dont know.
Will they be harder to play but reap more benefits when mastered? Maybe, we don't know.

Are they described as masters of murder by the lore? Yes.
Are they described as an important part of the Khainite Temple? Yes.

I will if you guys realize that your frosted flakes have this weird smell coming of them that is making my biscuit taste funcky, but this different box of cereal doesn't have this smell, so if you would eat that cereal we could have our biscuit, you your cereal..heck we may have some of that cereal to...........and everyone would be happy..er

The thing is we know our cereal is urine free. That smell is an acquired smell. It comes from a rare poison cultivated in the land of chill which allows us to ride our nauglir. Only Druchii can stand it. :)

If anything, a lot of the DoK conversation has been one side trying to compromise while the other won't accept any changes (because this side has gotten what they want...although majority do not care about the things the compromising side wants), this is at least my humble take on it...and I could be very well wrong.

If you believe the ones who cannot accept any changes as the anti-DoK side, and the comprimising/ willingly comprimising side as the pro-Dok side. It isn't because you are in the minority of the minority that you shouldn't be listened to. Or even because you try to prove your case with a little too much convivtion, that it almost seems like duress.

It's because the DoK is actually a good idea. It CAN work and it adds a lot to the background for this game. People are actually excited to play one. I'll stand by Mythic on this one and even pat them on the back for a job well done. They don't need an alternative. When you guys cool off and realize it isn't so bad (and that your guild might actually need one to function properly) than I am pretty sure you'll see that it is good.

I truly believe I am answering Xurre's question. It is a "What if?" presenting alternatives to the DoK. I reply by saying that the ideas were not bad but I like the DoK better.