More armor than Shadow Warrior?

[Are'el]

When they ran down the archetypes, they said that the RDPS classes would have the lowest armor, or Very Light Armor. The Healing archetype would have Medium armor. Now, since the Healers are all different, some have speculated that they will have different levels of armor depending on their design. A Warrior Priest would have armor closer to a Tank, while a Shaman would have armor closer to a MDPS (Light Armor).

The Archmage is a caster, so it's likely that their armor will be near the low end of the spectrum of "Medium." But they wear robes. What does the Shadow Warrior, with his bow and melee abilities, wear? Leather, or cloth?

How do you see this playing out? Who will have a higher armor rating?

[Vimes]

Well, my guess here would be Game > Look.

So even if the Shadow Warrior seems to have better Armor (using leather and such) I´m pretty sure the Archmage will have better armor ratings (just because, as you said, healer types having more armor that DPS types). That´s Magic ^^

[Mercer7]

Good point. I hadn't thought about the Shadow Warrior's armor until reading this. I know that Paul said "Cloaks and leather armor" but when he did that podcast, he was not sure about the class and didn't have all the information straight.

Information given states that Archmage is a wand wielding robe wearer who boasts DPS with healing.

Based on the information on their site, it sounds like the Archmage has a little more DPS in him than other healers and therefore, the Shadow Warrior may not have as much DPS as other ranged-dps'ers. If this is the case, than I can see the Shadow Warrior being allowed medium armor.

[Knolle]

I figure the survivability of an Archmage might not necessarily come from his armor first and foremost. He could simply have a couple quick self healing spells or shields and whatnot to make up for a lower base armor.

While it might be the general rule to make ranged dps more squishy, I don't see it happen in this case.

Shadow Warriors also tend to deal a few hits in close combat, as mentioned, so I figure their armor might be higher in comparison to other ranged dps the same way a warrior priests armor might be higher in comparison to a shaman.

[Covenant Prophet]

In the Archmage's description of appearence it states they wear "Graceful circlets and ornate headdresses engraved with powerful runes of protection".

Theres your justification for medium "armor". It doesn't have to be conventional, physical armor; magical shields can account for it just as well.

[novadragon79]

Shadow Warriors also tend to deal a few hits in close combat, as mentioned, so I figure their armor might be higher in comparison to other ranged dps the same way a warrior priests armor might be higher in comparison to a shaman.

I actually don't think they'll get higher armor but rather more dodge abilitys/rating. The magic classes have magic skills for defence/escape so non-magic skills/traps just seem more logic to me than higher armor.

[Kaeldor]

Could also be that the SW has better armor against physical attacks, while the AM has better protection against magical attacks.

[ChosenOne]

There is no armor versus magical attacks, thats what resistances are for. Archmage should have higher will stats which will mean higher resistances.

Shadow Warriors are a little different from most RDPS. Their damage is Physical damage and not magical damage thus armor mitigates their damage.

Their gimmick is an ability to do some melee as well. If their armor value was lower then that of the archmage that would pretty much ruin that little gimmick.

[Athanas]

That makes sense because Shadow Warriors definitely wear a decent amount of armor, some plate pieces and mail. Of course this depends on the edition and artwork, but for the most part they have plate vambraces, chestplate, and maybe plate greaves.

The archetypes exist has a general guideline, so in this case the Shadow warriors are somewhat of an exception to the rule. Like ChosenOne said they are ranged dps nonmagical and have some melee proficiency. I could easily see them have medium armor.

[Shalaa]

Who needs armour? armour is soooooooooo overrated.

[Axxar]

It may also be something as simple as support careers having self-buffs that decrease damage received.

[Are'el]

It may also be something as simple as support careers having self-buffs that decrease damage received.
Ugh, god, I hope it's not another necessary self-buffing mechanic like WoW. Rebuffing yourself every thirty minutes or after you rez. (Frost Armor, Demon Armor, etc)

[Nightsoldier]

Archmage
Ornate embroidered robes with high collars and large billowing sleeves
Graceful circlets and ornate headdresses engraved with powerful runes of protection.

Shadow Warrior
Elegantly tooled light leather and scale mail armor
Thick hoods and mantles, draped over concealing cloaks

I personaly would say that shadow warriors from these descriptions would have more armor. Leather and scale mail trump robes,

[Mercer7]

The description is very confusing. Light leather and scale male still sounds like 'light' armor to me. And 'powerful runes' sound powerful. I really can't decide how I'm supposed to interpret it.

It'll be a fun suspense though.

[Celestian]

Not sure if this will clear up the questions about armor but it does go over it a little. This is from the grab bag.

----------------
Q: Archmages are a support class and appear to wear light cloth armor. This concerns me a bit because I've played other games that have cloth based healers. In PVP cloth and healer has meant a very soft target that is easily slain and a primary target. What is being done so that this isn't a problem for Archmages?

A:Archmages (as well as 4 of 6 of the other healers) are in light robes. This means they are very much a juicy target for melee careers with high physical damage. This doesn’t mean they are just fodder for the grinder however, since their magic resistances can be as good as (if not better than) even the heaviest armored tanks. Not to mention they can heal large quantities of damage which can work better then armor in some cases.

That being said, in a one-on-one situation you will always be at a disadvantage against somebody that can put out high physical damage, and at an advantage against those who can put out high magic (since you can heal yourself and a Sorceress cannot). That’s just the way the cookie crumbles.

In a group situation though there are a number of team play options that will increase survivability significantly. These range from tank guards that can absorb up to HALF the incoming damage, to knock-backs which can be used to push players away from soft targets and into hard targets, which can then tie them up. And let’s not forget that collision detection allows a caster to literally stand behind a wall of allies that must be breached to reach him.

On top of that, you can sacrifice your healing power to improve you’re offensive or defensive abilities through specialization & tactic selection. Overall, we’ve found that healers have been quite potent in most cases (sometimes too potent), especially when they have the support of a solid group backing them.

[The Penguin Hunter]

Archmage
Ornate embroidered robes with high collars and large billowing sleeves
Graceful circlets and ornate headdresses engraved with powerful runes of protection.

Shadow Warrior
Elegantly tooled light leather and scale mail armor
Thick hoods and mantles, draped over concealing cloaks

I personaly would say that shadow warriors from these descriptions would have more armor. Leather and scale mail trump robes,


But that's from a looks stand point, when it comes down to mehcancis and balance the Archmage actualy has more armor

[Kaeldor]

But that's from a looks stand point, when it comes down to mehcancis and balance the Archmage actualy has more armor

No it's not, the archmage has less armor than a SW, just more protection against spells. Read Celestians quote.

[The Penguin Hunter]

No it's not, the archmage has less armor than a SW, just more protection against spells. Read Celestians quote.


The Look of the Shadow Warrior
Elegantly tooled light leather and scale mail armor
Thick hoods and mantles, draped over concealing cloaks
Wields finely crafted longbows and a thin razor sharp Elven longsword


Now... the archtype video
Warhammer Archtype Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR5adZptjOY)

Hmm ...:rolleyes:

[Kaeldor]

Now... the archtype video
Warhammer Archtype Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR5adZptjOY)

Hmm ...:rolleyes:

I know that video, but the grab bag info is newer, so this must have been changed in the meantime.

[The Penguin Hunter]

I know that video, but the grab bag info is newer, so this must have been changed in the meantime.


didn't say anything about the Shadow warrior, I fail to see your point :P

[Kaeldor]

Not sure if this will clear up the questions about armor but it does go over it a little. This is from the grab bag.

----------------
Q: Archmages are a support class and appear to wear light cloth armor. This concerns me a bit because I've played other games that have cloth based healers. In PVP cloth and healer has meant a very soft target that is easily slain and a primary target. What is being done so that this isn't a problem for Archmages?

A:Archmages (as well as 4 of 6 of the other healers) are in light robes. This means they are very much a juicy target for melee careers with high physical damage. This doesn’t mean they are just fodder for the grinder however, since their magic resistances can be as good as (if not better than) even the heaviest armored tanks. Not to mention they can heal large quantities of damage which can work better then armor in some cases.

That being said, in a one-on-one situation you will always be at a disadvantage against somebody that can put out high physical damage, and at an advantage against those who can put out high magic (since you can heal yourself and a Sorceress cannot). That’s just the way the cookie crumbles.

In a group situation though there are a number of team play options that will increase survivability significantly. These range from tank guards that can absorb up to HALF the incoming damage, to knock-backs which can be used to push players away from soft targets and into hard targets, which can then tie them up. And let’s not forget that collision detection allows a caster to literally stand behind a wall of allies that must be breached to reach him.

On top of that, you can sacrifice your healing power to improve you’re offensive or defensive abilities through specialization & tactic selection. Overall, we’ve found that healers have been quite potent in most cases (sometimes too potent), especially when they have the support of a solid group backing them.

From the grab bag in this month newsletter.

[Mercer7]

Right. Also to support ya, I was looking at the tier 4 shadow warrior and realized they must at least be in medium armor since they wear some plate in addition to the scale mail and leather. Well, glad that's settled.

ooo .. plate stuff. (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/swr_04.jpg)

[ChosenOne]

Seems someone just likes to argue/debate, even when its very obvious the shadow warriors will have a higher armor factor.

[aegir]

Just to spice things up. Here's (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/Amg_04.jpg) a picture of a t4 archmage. As you can see there is clearly some plate armor coming from under his robes, and plate shoulderpad, and a plate hat. It's a possibility that he's actually a chaos chosen covered in elven robes.

[Covenant Prophet]

Just to spice things up. Here's (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/Amg_04.jpg) a picture of a t4 archmage. As you can see there is clearly some plate armor coming from under his robes, and plate shoulderpad, and a plate hat. It's a possibility that he's actually a chaos chosen covered in elven robes.

There is no indication that there is plate armor underneath the robes. In fact, there is no bulk to speak of to indicate that. He has plate vambraces, shoulderpads, and maybe shinguards, as well as a shiny tiara thingy, that is all. If the Archmage was truly to wear plate, it would say so in the career description.

[Certhalion]

OK, Archmages: Lightly Armored, who will have abilities such as uber healing and group abilities to stay away from the MDPS.

[Lucrece]

I find it unlikely that Shadow Warriors have superior armor to archmages, as they belong to the RDPS archetype, which is the main target of MDPS.

Recent reviews have commented how Runepriests are basically impossible to bring down by an individual MDPS, despite the fact that Runepriests are wearing robes and light armor.


Aesthetics=/= actual game mechanic.

[ChosenOne]

I find it unlikely that Shadow Warriors have superior armor to archmages, as they belong to the RDPS archetype, which is the main target of MDPS.

Recent reviews have commented how Runepriests are basically impossible to bring down by an individual MDPS, despite the fact that Runepriests are wearing robes and light armor.


Aesthetics=/= actual game mechanic.

Engineers are also RDPS but they are close range and they DO have medium armor.

Shadow Warriors have a very viable path that has close range ranged attacks and melee range attacks.

That is TWO THIRDS of their possibilities. They will have higher armor factor then the archmage. The descriptions even say so. How you are coming to the point you post I really have no clue.


Archmages Might have a spell that adds to armor, but if its only a self buff then thats extremely silly. By gear alone an archmage's armor will not equal the shadow warrior's.

[Lucrece]

Engineers are also RDPS but they are close range and they DO have medium armor.

Shadow Warriors have a very viable path that has close range ranged attacks and melee range attacks.

That is TWO THIRDS of their possibilities. They will have higher armor factor then the archmage. The descriptions even say so. How you are coming to the point you post I really have no clue.


Archmages Might have a spell that adds to armor, but if its only a self buff then thats extremely silly. By gear alone an archmage's armor will not equal the shadow warrior's.

Engineers have only a slight difference, if you read convention reviews. They are still getting slapped around by melee DPS. Furthermore, unlike Shadow Warriors, there is a strict mention that Engineers would be more durable than your average RDPS.

It also makes sense with their mechanics, as they have to stand still to shoot and use abilities. Shadow Warriors do not. Giving them equal armor would be deranged.

As for archmage mitigation, you are not aware of what their armor buffs are. Take the Runepriest, for example. It is not that he has naturally high armor like that of the WP that makes him just as good armor-wise, it's his buffs.

I highly doubt such a mobile RDPS career, whose core mechanic works on "hit and run", will be allowed much survivability.

[ChosenOne]

Engineers have only a slight difference, if you read convention reviews. They are still getting slapped around by melee DPS. Furthermore, unlike Shadow Warriors, there is a strict mention that Engineers would be more durable than your average RDPS.

It also makes sense with their mechanics, as they have to stand still to shoot and use abilities. Shadow Warriors do not. Giving them equal armor would be deranged.

As for archmage mitigation, you are not aware of what their armor buffs are. Take the Runepriest, for example. It is not that he has naturally high armor like that of the WP that makes him just as good armor-wise, it's his buffs.

I highly doubt such a mobile RDPS career, whose core mechanic works on "hit and run", will be allowed much survivability.

We are talking purely about base armor and armor gained from gear. Yes of course I expect the archmage to have an armor buff. I dont expect it to be just for him though. I am sure there will be archmage players who will use it only on themselves which is sad. Especially since this isnt a mana system where buffs quickly cause casters to have to "sit and drink".

That buff doesnt really count in this equation. By simple armor types the shadow warrior has more armor.

Now the archmage might be able to be buffed up to have more, but if that archmage is working well with the group the shadow warrior will have the same buff thus once again having more armor.

We are comparing CLOTH ROBES with SCALE MAIL AND LEATHER. How can you say the cloth is greater then scale and leather??

[Lucrece]

We are talking purely about base armor and armor gained from gear. Yes of course I expect the archmage to have an armor buff. I dont expect it to be just for him though. I am sure there will be archmage players who will use it only on themselves which is sad. Especially since this isnt a mana system where buffs quickly cause casters to have to "sit and drink".

That buff doesnt really count in this equation. By simple armor types the shadow warrior has more armor.

Now the archmage might be able to be buffed up to have more, but if that archmage is working well with the group the shadow warrior will have the same buff thus once again having more armor.

We are comparing CLOTH ROBES with SCALE MAIL AND LEATHER. How can you say the cloth is greater then scale and leather??

I'm not saying it based on a realistic standpoint. By that very same line of thought, why include WE's into the game when they clearly will be one-shot due to having very little protection in comparison to her opponents, even less than a clothed opponent. Yet, melee DPS careers have more armor than clothies on average.

[ChosenOne]

I'm not saying it based on a realistic standpoint. By that very same line of thought, why include WE's into the game when they clearly will be one-shot due to having very little protection in comparison to her opponents, even less than a clothed opponent. Yet, melee DPS careers have more armor than clothies on average.


Well of course you can expand on the topic at hand and once again have a long conversation about how lore fits in and mechanics and all that....

All I am saying is it says Archmage get cloth based robes and Shadow Warrior gets scale mail and leather.

Obvious which one will have more armor factor.

The only way an Archmage would have more armor is if his buff spells are self only or an archmage chooses to not spread the buffs around. Either way would be silly considering if he can cast a spell it shouldnt just be self castable and with it not being mana based, buffs can then be passed around more freely due to the quicker AP regen.

[Lucrece]

Well of course you can expand on the topic at hand and once again have a long conversation about how lore fits in and mechanics and all that....

All I am saying is it says Archmage get cloth based robes and Shadow Warrior gets scale mail and leather.

Obvious which one will have more armor factor.

The only way an Archmage would have more armor is if his buff spells are self only or an archmage chooses to not spread the buffs around. Either way would be silly considering if he can cast a spell it shouldnt just be self castable and with it not being mana based, buffs can then be passed around more freely due to the quicker AP regen.

Not really. If they've taken the step to give a Witch Elf-- which clearly is less armored than any caster, more armor than casters-- then I wouldn't be surprised if they further violated laws of physics and logic to fit their archetype guidelines.

[Kaeldor]

I find it unlikely that Shadow Warriors have superior armor to archmages, as they belong to the RDPS archetype, which is the main target of MDPS.

Recent reviews have commented how Runepriests are basically impossible to bring down by an individual MDPS, despite the fact that Runepriests are wearing robes and light armor.


Aesthetics=/= actual game mechanic.

That is probalby becaue they can heal themselves. Everything in this games is made in a kind of "you see what you get" way. It's not really plausible that they give robes a higher physical armor than leather/scale armor. Armor alone doesn't say anything about how easy it is for one class to kill another. A mage in WoW had one of the lowest physical armor ratings, but still for a long time it was realyl tough for msds to bring one down.

Runepriest could easly have spells like "stoneskin", "globe of invulnerability" or so which give them a temporaly bonus to their armor. Plus the healing.

[Lucrece]

That is probalby becaue they can heal themselves. Everything in this games is made in a kind of "you see what you get" way. It's not really plausible that they give robes a higher physical armor than leather/scale armor. Armor alone doesn't say anything about how easy it is for one class to kill another. A mage in WoW had one of the lowest physical armor ratings, but still for a long time it was realyl tough for msds to bring one down.

Runepriest could easly have spells like "stoneskin", "globe of invulnerability" or so which give them a temporaly bonus to their armor. Plus the healing.

True in some ways, fallacious in others.

I think their armor design for archetypes favoring healers is mainly because healers tend to be the focus targets in most matches. In order to make an already underpopulated archetype less undesirable, removing the whole "pile-on the healer" mentality in gamers would help.

Also, while heals can serve as mitigation, they are subject to setback and interrupts, something that armor does not face. Healing is not always the best individual mitigation technique; CC is a fairly formidable mitigation source, too. However, seeing as how they said that they wanted to reduce player-disabling CC, perhaps healing will become more valuable for damage mitigation.

Nevertheless, survivability is always counterbalanced with damage capability. Giving a RDPS class higher armor rating in addition to its inherent mobility (whereas all the other careers have to be stationary to deal damage, diminishing their kiting capabilities) would demand a lower damage capability overall.

[ChosenOne]

Not really. If they've taken the step to give a Witch Elf-- which clearly is less armored than any caster, more armor than casters-- then I wouldn't be surprised if they further violated laws of physics and logic to fit their archetype guidelines.


Ok believe what you want. It has said in plain writing that shadow warriors have a better type of armor then archmages. Go ahead and make some argument that is based on archetypes but those are OLD arguments. We have NEW information stating what type of armor is used.

If you want to continue debating when the proof is pretty obvious then go ahead, but my point is made and my point is what is told to us.

[Lucrece]

Ok believe what you want. It has said in plain writing that shadow warriors have a better type of armor then archmages. Go ahead and make some argument that is based on archetypes but those are OLD arguments. We have NEW information stating what type of armor is used.

If you want to continue debating when the proof is pretty obvious then go ahead, but my point is made and my point is what is told to us.


That written part concern aesthetics, if your source is the career overview. Seems like more wishful thinking on your part.

[Covenant Prophet]

leather/scale mail > cloth

That is all.

[oakae]

leather/scale mail > cloth

That is all.
Yea I'm thinking the Shadow Warrior will be better at taking physical damage while the Archmage will be better at taking magical damage.

[Kaeldor]

True in some ways, fallacious in others.

I think their armor design for archetypes favoring healers is mainly because healers tend to be the focus targets in most matches. In order to make an already underpopulated archetype less undesirable, removing the whole "pile-on the healer" mentality in gamers would help.

Also, while heals can serve as mitigation, they are subject to setback and interrupts, something that armor does not face. Healing is not always the best individual mitigation technique; CC is a fairly formidable mitigation source, too. However, seeing as how they said that they wanted to reduce player-disabling CC, perhaps healing will become more valuable for damage mitigation.

Nevertheless, survivability is always counterbalanced with damage capability. Giving a RDPS class higher armor rating in addition to its inherent mobility (whereas all the other careers have to be stationary to deal damage, diminishing their kiting capabilities) would demand a lower damage capability overall.

This is not a comparison between RDSD and Healer, but SW and AM. Generally my point is the same what ChosenOne said above. If you read the quote above from the grab bag, it says the AM is still sometimes on the point of being OP in group play, although their armor class is low. There are other ways to balance classes than armor.

I really can't understand why people want to believe older information more, than newer one.

It's not from the shadow warirro description .... grab bag:

Q: Archmages are a support class and appear to wear light cloth armor. This concerns me a bit because I've played other games that have cloth based healers. In PVP cloth and healer has meant a very soft target that is easily slain and a primary target. What is being done so that this isn't a problem for Archmages?

A:Archmages (as well as 4 of 6 of the other healers) are in light robes. This means they are very much a juicy target for melee careers with high physical damage. This doesn’t mean they are just fodder for the grinder however, since their magic resistances can be as good as (if not better than) even the heaviest armored tanks. Not to mention they can heal large quantities of damage which can work better then armor in some cases.

Is this so hard to read??? ligh robes, not good against physical damage, but magical resistance, and heal .... .

[Lucrece]

This is not a comparison between RDSD and Healer, but SW and AM. Generally my point is the same what ChosenOne said above. If you read the quote above from the grab bag, it says the AM is still sometimes on the point of being OP in group play, although their armor class is low. There are other ways to balance classes than armor.

I really can't understand why people want to believe older information more, than newer one.

It's not from the shadow warirro description .... grab bag:

[b]

Is this so hard to read??? ligh robes, not good against physical damage, but magical resistance, and heal .... .

It mentioned the obvious: That MDPS choose targets that are not tanks as the best targets to focus. Nothing there says that the case will be any different with the shadow warrior.

[Ashon]

I think with the information we have available to us, I would definitely assume Shadow Warriors have better raw armour stats. Shadow Warriors would more often be in melee range then an Archmage, they will need to allow themselves into melee range more often to use skills and they'll be chased down by MDPS.
Of course if you add in buffs and whatnot it may be possible to get close or even exceed Shadow Warriors armour(assuming it's a self-only buff) or mitigate enough damage( 5 second invulnerability spells etc) that if you averaged it out they may be soaking in similar DPS as a Shadow Warrior.
Spell lists aren't confirmed so we can only base it on raw stats. I find it improbable that the Archmage will have better raw armour stats then Shadow Warriors.
At the end of the day they're clothies, they will be focused fired upon and really it's up to the party to make sure the healer/s are safe as possible

[Kaeldor]

It mentioned the obvious: That MDPS choose targets that are not tanks as the best targets to focus. Nothing there says that the case will be any different with the shadow warrior.
Except that SW are not in light robes, it actually negates your main point of argumentation, that look is not actual stats. Here is says look is stats. .... If you can accept that warrior priest have more physical armor than AM (which also shows in the way they look), why can't you believe that SW have more armor, than a AM?? It's not like a ranger having higher armor type than a priest type is something totally unknown to MMOs.

[Lucrece]

Except that SW are not in light robes, it actually negates your main point of argumentation, that look is not actual stats. Here is says look is stats. .... If you can accept that warrior priest have more physical armor than AM (which also shows in the way they look), why can't you believe that SW have more armor, than a AM?? It's not like a ranger having higher armor type than a priest type is something totally unknown to MMOs.

You seem to be missing the point of my post.

The reason why you can't make such assumptions is because they've already established a precedent of breaking the laws of logic. The Witch Elf is far less armored than even a caster, but they will have higher armor rating according to the archetype guidelines. Thus, why I wouldn't be surprised if a clothie had more armor than a toon wearing mail, be it irrational or not.

[Kaeldor]

You seem to be missing the point of my post.

The reason why you can't make such assumptions is because they've already established a precedent of breaking the laws of logic. The Witch Elf is far less armored than even a caster, but they will have higher armor rating according to the archetype guidelines. Thus, why I wouldn't be surprised if a clothie had more armor than a toon wearing mail, be it irrational or not.

I'm not missing it at all. Like others I'm trying to tell you that this is an assumption based on old information. Actually I also believed it to be like that. But in the same way that a warrior priest will have more armor than an Archmage or Runepriest, a Shadow Warrior will have more than a Bright Wizard or Socerer, a Witch Elf will have less than say a Hammerer. It even says that in that old podcast you are refering too. There are differneces within the archtypes. I also believe that my SW will do less damage against a plate class than say a Bright Wizard or Soceress. Archmages (as well as 4 of 6 of the other healers) are in light robes There it says that there are differnces within a archtypes.

And if they would make a distinction based on appreance within each archtype, there is no reason to believe that all of a sudden between archtypes robes give more basic physical armor than leather/scale. If you have for example a chosen, a hammerer, a warrior priest and a bright mage, I think then the order of physical armor would be exactly as in that podcast. But not if you have say a witch elf, an archmage and a shadow warrior. Espcecially concernign the witch elf, have you read the description? "When facing a heavily armored foe, the Witch Elf relies on her agility to survive". "The Witch Elves pay for their speed and agility by having virtually no defenses".

But I tihkn I won't convince you and therefor that's the last thing I say here. Let's wait for open beta : )

[ChosenOne]

That written part concern aesthetics, if your source is the career overview. Seems like more wishful thinking on your part.

Oh yes, wishful thinking of me to pay attention to new information rather then old information.

Because we havnt seen things change.

Your biggest argument for this position of yours is the witch elf. Which has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

I am sorry if you are unable to understand this as the rest of us do. Perhaps you dont wish to believe what is obviously written for us, but thats your flaw not ours.

Your position is irrational because you have nothing but some made up position to stand upon.

Once again, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WITCH ELVES. The witch elves do have low armor because they have poisons that debilitate as well as having the best escape technique in the game.

We are talking about a cloth wearing support class that is dependent on proper positioning as well as teammates for protection from melee physical damage.

The shadow warrior PURPOSEFULLY gets in close and fights. Why would he do that in armor equivalent or less then that of cloth? Thats 100% irrational. Yes SOME RDPS have cloth as well and might have less armor then the archmage but Not the shadow warrior.

Yes, we were told that in the class overview. You claim the class overview is a lie? Thats just rediculous. I'm sorry, maybe thats harsh, but its the truth.

[sindbad]

Does this really matter? Balance is up to Mythic and they'll get it right, they actually want people to play the game.

Stop arguing over nothing.

[Are'el]

Woah, easy there, guys. At this point, there's no reason to go beyond mere speculation. They haven't specifically told us anything about this particular issue. We only have some vague information that can be interpretted different ways. This "I'm right, you're wrong" crap is just useless at this juncture. Discuss, not argue.

[ChosenOne]

Woah, easy there, guys. At this point, there's no reason to go beyond mere speculation. They haven't specifically told us anything about this particular issue. We only have some vague information that can be interpretted different ways. This "I'm right, you're wrong" crap is just useless at this juncture. Discuss, not argue.

It would be a simple discussion if persons did not try to warp what is told to us and spread false information.

[Lucrece]

Oh yes, wishful thinking of me to pay attention to new information rather then old information.

Because we havnt seen things change.

Your biggest argument for this position of yours is the witch elf. Which has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

I am sorry if you are unable to understand this as the rest of us do. Perhaps you dont wish to believe what is obviously written for us, but thats your flaw not ours.

Your position is irrational because you have nothing but some made up position to stand upon.

Once again, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WITCH ELVES. The witch elves do have low armor because they have poisons that debilitate as well as having the best escape technique in the game.

We are talking about a cloth wearing support class that is dependent on proper positioning as well as teammates for protection from melee physical damage.

The shadow warrior PURPOSEFULLY gets in close and fights. Why would he do that in armor equivalent or less then that of cloth? Thats 100% irrational. Yes SOME RDPS have cloth as well and might have less armor then the archmage but Not the shadow warrior.

Yes, we were told that in the class overview. You claim the class overview is a lie? Thats just rediculous. I'm sorry, maybe thats harsh, but its the truth.

What you do not seem to be able of comprehending is the difference between speculation and fact; all you are basing your argument off of is stretched speculation.

Now, your stubborn willfulness to ignore the main point of my posts aside, let's go to the WE point.

What I've been arguing is that each case can be easily argued, that you should avoid wrongful extrapolation and blanket statements. You say "Oh, how can one possibly think that cloth>mail; it doesn't make sense, duh! Rabble, rabble, rabble...", and I show you why such a strange case is not unlikely, as they've made WE's have greater armor than clothies despite the fact that their very aesthetics contradict this.

As for old/new information, all you have is NEW information on Archmage armor, not how it compares to a Shadow Warrior's. All you have concluded is based on mere assumptions, not fact. You do not hold "truth" if you can't back it by fact, which is either a demonstration of in-game armor differences, which is only available to beta testers and future game convention attendants, or an official statement from Mythic that Shadow Warriors will be the exception to the RDPS archetype guidelines.

If there's any warping of words here, you are definitely a case study for it.

[Covenant Prophet]

I think it's time to just agree to disagree, eh?

[Lucrece]

I think it's time to just agree to disagree, eh?

Kiss and make up? I'm no elf-kissing runt! ;p

[Kaeldor]

Kiss and make up? I'm no elf-kissing runt! ;p

This is the only thing you are right about >.>

[novadragon79]

If people belive that the shadow warrior, who is mainly a ranged dps, is gonna have equal or better armor than the melee dps classes i think you're going to be disapointed. They've said that althought the shadow warrior have the posiblitity of close combat it's mostly an ambush/sniper and run class.

[Kaeldor]

If people belive that the shadow warrior, who is mainly a ranged dps, is gonna have equal or better armor than the melee dps classes i think you're going to be disapointed. They've said that althought the shadow warrior have the posiblitity of close combat it's mostly an ambush/sniper and run class.

The archmage is not a melee dps.

[The Penguin Hunter]

I think it's time to just agree to disagree, eh?
No... not really, i'm having too much fun reading this. :mrgreen:

Kiss and make up? I'm no elf-kissing runt! ;p
Yes you are...

[Kaeldor]

No... not really, i'm having too much fun reading this. :mrgreen:

Pfft you gave up, and let Lucrece do all the hard Work Of Ignorance. :rolleyes:

(no, but honestly, until we don't get new information, it seems really unlikely that one side can do anything to convince the other.)

[Lucrece]

Pfft you gave up, and let Lucrece do all the hard Work Of Ignorance. :rolleyes:

(no, but honestly, until we don't get new information, it seems really unlikely that one side can do anything to convince the other.)

Talking about giving up, you hardly put up any "fight". Of course, hard work of any kind, even that of ignorance and arrogance, seems to be too much of a tasks for you elves to rise up to.;)

[Lucrece]

No... not really, i'm having too much fun reading this. :mrgreen:


Yes you are...

Hush, you.

Do not believe this man.

[The Penguin Hunter]

Pfft you gave up, and let Lucrece do all the hard Work Of Ignorance. :rolleyes:

(no, but honestly, until we don't get new information, it seems really unlikely that one side can do anything to convince the other.)

I didn't give up, I only grew tired/bored of the repeating and my attention was drawn else where *damn steam tank in avelorn thread*
:P ...

And yes everyone should believe me for I am the Almighty Hunter of Penguins, Lucrece whos argument I support 100% doesn't change the fact that, that person is indeed an elf lover *wait for all the gasping to end* that's right... such a sad thing indeed oh well back to the repearting and restating of sides once again in a repeditive cycle that will not end unless by the internet suddenly ceased to exist...

[Lucrece]

I didn't give up, I only grew tired/bored of the repeating and my attention was drawn else where *damn steam tank in avelorn thread*
:P ...

And yes everyone should believe me for I am the Almighty Hunter of Penguins, Lucrece whos argument I support 100% doesn't change the fact that, that person is indeed an elf lover *wait for all the gasping to end* that's right... such a sad thing indeed oh well back to the repearting and restating of sides once again in a repeditive cycle that will not end unless by the internet suddenly ceased to exist...

You lowly slanderer! I'll feed those words to you with grudged interest!

[The Penguin Hunter]

You lowly slanderer! I'll feed those words to you with grudged interest!

See the problem with that is that you'll actualy have to kill me...and I don't see how that's going to happen since you're not allowed to leave the Hold *mocks dwarf while standing outside the Dwarf hold in his nice shiney Warrior Priest armor*

[Infallius_Daemonium]

See the problem with that is that you'll actualy have to kill me...and I don't see how that's going to happen since you're not allowed to leave the Hold *mocks dwarf while standing outside the Dwarf hold in his nice shiney Warrior Priest armor*
Mocking us, and his armor is shiny too?! Enough, load the Grudge Thrower!

[The Penguin Hunter]

Mocking us, and his armor is shiny too?! Enough, load the Grudge Thrower!


Oh crap... I didn't think of that...

[Infallius_Daemonium]

Oh crap... I didn't think of that...
Darn right you didn't! Now hold still while I roll my artillery dice. . . ;)

[The Penguin Hunter]

Darn right you didn't! Now hold still while I roll my artillery dice. . . ;)


Uh yeah... about that /flee >.>

[Lucrece]

Uh yeah... about that /flee >.>

*Throws a shrapnel grenade in front of him*

Ha! Try to flee now, blasphemous fool!

[The Penguin Hunter]

*Throws a shrapnel grenade in front of him*

Ha! Try to flee now, blasphemous fool!

*jumps into randomly placed hole... randomly, and then gets out to brush self off and do many rude and comical gestures at the Dwarfs*

Ha! your aim is as bad as an Orc... no better yet an Elf!!!

[Lucrece]

*jumps into randomly placed hole... randomly, and then gets out to brush self off and do many rude and comical gestures at the Dwarfs*

Ha! your aim is as bad as an Orc... no better yet an Elf!!!


*Watches as the insolent fool runs into and slips at the nearby pool of oil created by a second oil grenade that was thrown in response*

[Mercer7]

Are you kidding me? This is the elven kingdom, go roll your badly aimed dice elsewhere. All of you... go. Don't make me start pouring tea.

[Lucrece]

Are you kidding me? This is the elven kingdom, go roll your badly aimed dice elsewhere. All of you... go. Don't make me start pouring tea.

And milk, you poor excuse of a pansy ;p!

[The Penguin Hunter]

And milk, you poor excuse of a pansy ;p!
The elf Lover would indeed know all about elves now wouldn't they ...

*cries at the oil stain on his nice red robe then feeling an itch he scratches the part of his upper lip that's right under the nose leaving a smidge of oil*

Ze Empire vil not tolerat zis und ve vil hav reveng!

In ze nam o ze Emperior ve zhall zmite you un Sigmar's nam!

Bring ut ze Organ Gunz, fire!

[Lucrece]

The elf Lover would indeed know all about elves now wouldn't they ...

*cries at the oil stain on his nice red robe*

And that was not only oil I put in the grenade, mind you! I put a special organic ingredient with an obvious hue in it just for you ;D.

[The Penguin Hunter]

check edited post for greater comedic effect:P

[Mercer7]

Yea the editing was pretty funny. Now in the immortal words of James Earl Jones...

I'm going to beat you with a crow bar until you go away!

Rises from his elven chair and picks up his elven crow bar of pixie smiting.