If the current Hatred was scrapped...

[Jinsei]

...What would you put in place of it? There seems to be a few concerns over the viability of the current Hatred mechanic and the general lack of Black Guard information since Leipzig which has led many to believe that some fundamental component of the Black Guard might be needing a bit of work.

Hatred at the moment works counteractively as a tank. You get stronger as you get hit, which would work fine in PvE...might not exactly make a brilliant conversion over to RvR gameplay. Why should the enemy attack you if it's only going to empower you if there are squishier targets available? Which brings me to my question... Do you think Hatred in it's current state will work well and if not, what exactly would you put in place of it?

I personally would change hatred to Hatred/Stubborness. The more damage the Black Guard deals, the more Hatred he gains which in turn would lead to a higher damage output but less defensive ability. The more damage the Black Guard incurs would also raise his Stubborness and lower his Hatred, which would increase the amount of pain one could withstand while lowering the amount of damage they deal. I think this presents a much more valid mechanic...If you don't attack him, he'll be a wrecking machine. If you do attack him, he'll be able to withstand the attack at the cost of his own damage. This would lead to more tactical options for the enemies of the BG like "Should I try and kill that Zealot or will the BG's Hatred overwhelm me? Or should I try to take down the BG, negating some of his damage potential while it becomes increasingly harder to kill?" instead of the "Ignore the Black Guard till last, he's not a threat unless we hit him!"

This is all speculation of course, but it's always fun to speculate given the lack of 'Guard info.

[Dan gerous]

I like the idea.
Works better then just hate.

[LookinGreen]

I don't see a problem with the current system. Who cares if no one attacks you then just unleash hell with your AP abilities and you start building mad morale. So if they dont attack you they are dead, I dont see a problem.

[Shalaa]

I don't see a problem with the current system. Who cares if no one attacks you then just unleash hell with your AP abilities and you start building mad morale. So if they dont attack you they are dead, I dont see a problem.

People don't like it because iron breakers have a similar mechanic but it builds as your team gets hit, not yourself. On the plus side of this you could make your Blackguard a totally offensive character.

[Xurré]

I must say that it seems like an interesting mechanic and definitely sounds like it makes the tank play more like a tank. There are a few considerations though I’d like to bring up.

First, I’m not sure how people would like it if their damage would decrease as the people they attack fight back. I think a lot of people (wrongly) see how much damage you do as a measure of how powerful you are and thus these players might feel this mechanic encourages them to try and keep from getting hit; which is the exact opposite of how you’d want a tank to play (and yes, if anyone feels that way they should play a melee damage class instead of a tank as the tank’s job is to get hit).

Secondly, it would seem that for the opponent now the best cause is to try and take out the tank with as few hits as possible, maybe encouraging them to build up their damage (and thus build down their defence) so that a few high-damage hits will take them out. It seems to me that such strategies would make the Black Guard a bit helpless to resist if whether they’re doing more damage or more defence is left up to the enemy instead of up to them.

Now, I really like the stubbornness mechanic of “the more you get hit the greater your defence”. That’s something I think no other class (tank or otherwise) has yet. But having this decrease if the Black Guard does more damage is, I think, a mistake.

Perhaps it’s better to have the two work completely independently; the more you get hit the more your defence increases and the less you get hit the more it decreases. And the more you hit others the more your damage increase and the less you hit others the more it decreases. However that means that the Black Guard would be able to have both high defence and high damage, which kinda makes them unstoppable killing machines.

So perhaps, if you want to keep hatred, then including stubbornness like that isn’t a good idea. If there are issues with hatred then you might make it work exactly like for the Ironbreakers (how original) or perhaps have them build hatred from both hitting and being hit to encourage the enemy to take them out quickly enough. Then again, that has its problems too (as you’re turning the tank into a melee damage class like that, just with much better armour).

Anyway, just some thoughts. I like the general idea, but there’s some issues to look at I think.


- Xurré

[Lord Tareq]

Reads like a very interesting twist to the somewhat plain hatred mechanic. I would certainly welcome the Black Guards fabled stubbornness entering the equation.:)

First, I’m not sure how people would like it if their damage would decrease as the people they attack fight back. I think a lot of people (wrongly) see how much damage you do as a measure of how powerful you are and thus these players might feel this mechanic encourages them to try and keep from getting hit; which is the exact opposite of how you’d want a tank to play (and yes, if anyone feels that way they should play a melee damage class instead of a tank as the tank’s job is to get hit).

That seems just another bonus to it, less omg-dps-dps-dps people playing the class with an e-peen the size of a skyscraper.:mrgreen:

[Xurré]

That seems just another bonus to it, less omg-dps-dps-dps people playing the class with an e-peen the size of a skyscraper.:mrgreen:
LOL, fair enough. ;)


- Xurré

[Selvandra]

Can't forget about 'Taunt'

I think that one skill will have a lot of people attacking the tank.

and
as everyone else has said if you don't take him out he will just build insane morale and do insane attacks.

I think your new system will just make them overpowered, then nerfed 3 weeks later.

[Dyst]

Hatred is a great mechanic for everyone except the Order.

Black Guard:
- With his/her taunting mechanics will gain more strength when being attacked.
- If players choose to ignore him/her because of the mechanic, the Black Guard is realisticly free to go whoop-di-doo on that foo'. Meaning "dps-spec" could in a way be more viable (even though tanking is also extremely viable, see point above.)

Everyone on the Black Guard's team:
- Will possibly have a defensive tank that (unlike Ironbreaker) doesn't rely on others being hit, but him-/herself. This is a great mechanic in that sense, can't stress this enough.
- Will possibly have an offensive tank/melee that has an automatic low 'aggro' (because of Hatred) which could work in the BG's favor, damage-wise. In addition, has great utility with the ability to taunt - giving the opponent a hard time choosing what to do.

The Order:
- Dies because the Black Guard has a freaking huge halberd.

[Relentless]

Another variant might be a battle/blood lust type mechanic, where the more your team deals damage the stronger the BG builds their lust for battle/blood and more abilities become open to them. This is essentially the opposite of the IB's grudge system. Perhaps the BGs' taunts could have a side effect of building additional lust for a specific target taking damage, becoming increasingly angry at being ignored.

[Vankador]

I'd like it if they made it like the WoW Warrior's rage mechanics.

They get rage from both hitting and being hit.

[Rivers]

I think it would be best if Hatred would be implemented exactly like the Ironbreaker's Grudge. Why? Because it's such a perfect tank mechanic. Why fix what isn't broken?

With Hatred being built by being hit, there isn't that much incentive for DPSers to go after the Black Guard even with Taunt. Attack the Black Guard and get your face handed to you; attack an enemy healer and do lower damage (30% less, I believe).

The Ironbreaker's Grudge, on the other hand, provides a double-whammy (in conjunction with Taunt) that focuses attention on the tank and since that is their primary role, it is more suitable. Attack an enemy healer and do lower damage in addition to getting your face handed to you by the Ironbreaker; attack the Ironbreaker and attempt slicing through armor and healing.

With the current Hatred mechanic, attacking the Black Guard/ally is a Lose/Kinda' Lose situation. With Grudge, attacking the tank/ally is a Lose/Huge Lose situation.

[Noah]

A really easy way to do Hatred as it stands is to load the Black Guard up with positional styles. Kind of like how Reaver's were in DAOC. Those nasty side and back attacks ripped through people. Give those to the Black Guard. Either you stand up toe to toe with the guy, or you leave yourself vulnerable. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't, which is exactly the way the Iron Breaker works.

[i fart rainbows]

I don't see a problem with the current system. Who cares if no one attacks you then just unleash hell with your AP abilities and you start building mad morale. So if they dont attack you they are dead, I dont see a problem.

Exactly.

Spec for pure offense imo, but the downside is you'll still probably need a pocket healer to be effective. If I play a black guard it will only be because I talked a friend into rolling a healer.

[sindbad]

Unless they get better taunt abilities of some sort, I think they may be at a disadvantage towards other tanks.

Seeing how they are supposedly the destruction defensive tank, hatred could be gained by anyone in your group (including you) getting hit.
The IB has abilities to build up grudge if his allies aren't getting hit, the BG gets hatred at all times anyway.

We'll wait and see.

[Aeious]

I have personally liked the Hatred mechanic from the begining due to the fact its works well in both RvR and PvE. (and as mentioned before the taunt system makes it very hard for the enemy to chose who to kill with this mechanic, thus letting the BG fill his role as a tank even if he isnt getting hit)

However, if the hatred idea is getting scrapped (heaven forbid) i think i like Relentless' idea alot b/c it too would work wonders in most cases (solo'ing excluded).

I have on a random note always found it funny that the ironbreaker (the anvil of the tanks) has a mechanic that gives less tanking benifit in PvE than RvR because if you think about it the "tank" name originated due to PvE and he is the token tank in WAR but ... irony? meh

Yay ( )'s.

[Vankador]

A really easy way to do Hatred as it stands is to load the Black Guard up with positional styles. Kind of like how Reaver's were in DAOC. Those nasty side and back attacks ripped through people. Give those to the Black Guard. Either you stand up toe to toe with the guy, or you leave yourself vulnerable. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't, which is exactly the way the Iron Breaker works.

BGs are tanks though.. Back and side attacks will be pretty much useless for tanking PvE.

[Lord Tareq]

BGs are tanks though.. Back and side attacks will be pretty much useless for tanking PvE.

When tanking in PVE your supposed to do just that, tanking. It doesn't matter that you won't be able to use your positionals for extra damage as its not your job to do damage then.

[Biocide]

If they throw in enough abilities to grab attention while hatred is low, I don't see it as a problem. Taunts, snares, debuffs (imagine a mitigation debuff that stacks), and a low AP multitarget attack with high damage attacks the higher hatred goes.

[Malvos]

As for taunt forcing people to attack you.. HA. That is a laugh. A large portion of the people who play probably won't even notice they were taunted let alone switch targets.

You people give players too much credit.

[MidNight]

I think hatred should be a bar should be something you build then when use an attack you loose hatred or get to use new abilities that require hatred. Hatred should be a % bar and more you get hit higher the % gets and the hatred increases dmg of abilities you already have and BG wont lose dps and defence in any scenario. So in PvP if your not getting hit your still building moral and doing dmg

hatred=0%, attack does Xdmg
hatred=10%, attack does Xdmg+1
hatred=20%, attack does Xdmg+2
etc...

[Biocide]

As for taunt forcing people to attack you.. HA. That is a laugh. A large portion of the people who play probably won't even notice they were taunted let alone switch targets.

You people give players too much credit.
I think you grossly underestimate the effect that a 40-50% dps loss has on a dps class player. Most of them realize that when those big, shiny numbers people are always saying dps classes care about, are smaller, ugly ducklings, they'll put two and two together. And if they don't, all the better, the black guard can then continue beating on them mercilessly as their feeble minds fail to grasp the situation until it's too late.

But having played with several dps class players that would win a Darwin award for some really dumb things, even the worst would instantly notice if their lifeblood of big shiny numbers dropped off, run to the forums, and cry that they'd been nerfed. Sure it'll take a while for them to realize what's going on and the game mechanics, but I can't see a single dps class that says "Oh hey, that's the guy that halved my damage and beat me to a pulp with his halberd after I ignored him, but let's let that one live for a while and be half as effective on his healer." Sure, they'll think it a few times, for the really dumb ones, it'll take longer, but every dps class will realize it with time.

And either way, the black guard wins.

[ChosenOne]

As for taunt forcing people to attack you.. HA. That is a laugh. A large portion of the people who play probably won't even notice they were taunted let alone switch targets.

You people give players too much credit.


I tend to agree. I would add a little bonus to the BG's taunt. With each attack the taunted target directs to a different target then the BG, he begins to feel his hatred build as his taunting is ignored.

So its not as fast as being attacked, but it allows the BG to still build hatred. Then have some mastery abilities that increase the taunt's side affect. That way the player can focus in that if they want, or in the other aspects.

[Templar4993]

If hatred didnt work properly they could use porridge and raw meat as a fall back. After all it was what they were trained with to start with lol