Witch Elves Stealth?

[Xurré]

With all the recent talk that EA Mythic might be adding stealth to the game after all, and with a number of people commenting that they felt Witch Elves would be a good candidate for getting this stealth and EA Mythic having commented in the past that Witch Elves are the closest class they have to rogue, I thought I’d open a poll to ask the question to those interested in the class.

Do you think that Witch Elves should get stealth?

I’d also like to hear reasons as to why people think so and for the “depends” choice what kinds of stealth you think would be suitable for Witch Elves and which kinds not. Note that this goes beyond the question of whether stealth should be in the game or not to begin with.

[EDIT] Let me make this perfectly clear. This is about whether stealth would suit Witch Elves.



For me I can emphatically say that, no, Witch Elves should never ever get any stealth of any kind for any reason whatsoever.

Witch Elves are an insane, bloodthirsty, frenzying class who runs into battle head-first without any concern for their own safety (entrusting themselves completely to their god). They are death incarnate, bringers of unending slaughter, walking blenders. They are loud and flashy, attracting attention to themselves. When a Witch Elf is around then you know it. They get their kills by continually hacking in on their victims, by using their superior skill and agility. And they are most certainly not Assassins in Bikinis.

I’m also afraid that if they do get stealth of some kind then they’ll have to be weaker than other classes (who don’t get stealth) to make up for the ‘benefit’. Witch Elves should, in my opinion, have the fastest melee damage output of any class in the game; that is their edge and not that they can hide themselves.

I can also see absolutely no lore-reason for how they would get this ability to hide. I can’t see anything anywhere in their current background that could even hint at them getting this ability somehow. The only thing I can think of is that somehow they learned it from the Assassins… but that would be beyond worse. Not only do the Disciples then get everything the Witch Elves had, but the Witch Elves are pushed into the role of Assassins in both background and ability.

I say, if they wanted to implement Assassins then they should have just implemented Assassins (so that I could just go and look for another game to play) instead of implementing Assassins who look like Witch Elves.

So I’m strongly, strongly hoping that even if EA Mythic includes stealth in the game (which I hope they’re not) then they won’t give it to Witch Elves. But considering how EA Mythic has been shattering my hopes one at a time lately I don’t have much faith in that anymore.


- Xurré

[Mercer7]

For the sake of 'something to blame' I hope that no career gets stealth. If there were careers to get it, however, witch elves would be the most likely. A lot of people would expect shadow warriors, but with the ability to shoot and move, it would be an insane bonus. I think that's part of the preview actually, that it won't be in. So if witch elves get stealth, would archmages get invisibility spells? Too much to think about. I'm with you and I hope the witch elf doesn't, but then I hope no one does.

Oh, about lore. If witch elves did get stealth, I think shadow warriors would choose not to use the tactic just because it's vile. :mrgreen: Great write-up though, I like the way you view that career. See you in Nagarythe.

[Ralzar]

I thought we weren't allowed to make threads about Stealth?

Not that I don't agree with you, but this'll probably get locked.

[Xurré]

I thought we weren't allowed to make threads about Stealth?
We aren't? I'm not aware of any such restriction and I follow the forums quite closely. The last big stealth thread in fact ran quite a while and seemed to get closed due to NDA violations. At least that was my understanding.


- Xurré

[Taurth]

[This comment has been removed due to the illegal subject matter of stealth]

[Zunjin]

I did a simple sentence in the alliance pool what I think is accepted stealth of any kind. Hiding behind a tree for a ambush is accepted stealth. Hiding in high grass is accepted stealth and hiding in fog is also accepted stealth. Stealth that brings invisibility or walking in open ground without being seen is not on the other hand.

Witch elves are not crazed in such a degree that they ignore battleformations, orders and tactic presented by superiors ( those being very few ). It is in any dark elves interest to win a battle and I dont think a witch elf is different. If every class, race such would be given these toned down stealth abilities ( in comparsion to say stealth in WoW and other games in general ) Im not sure if a witch elf would be treaten different. Are their frenzy such that they cant think themself lying a ambush or in disastrous loss fall back to fight another day?

I might speak out of the game turns and even lore. In the scenario that stealth would in this game yet again be a ability used only to fight 1 versus 1 or smaller skimirhes that at the same time gives unatural abilites like invisibility then no, for the absolute sake of the warhammer ip, witch elves should not have stealth.

About if this is legal discussion, just make it a lore question instead if witch elves would use stealth while the fight ( which it kind of is already )

[Slash]

I thought we weren't allowed to make threads about Stealth?

Not that I don't agree with you, but this'll probably get locked.

I thought that was only In the Stealth Poll thread. It might be everywhere though. However, this isn't a Stealth or No-Stealth thread, this is a thread discussing whether a certain class should be awarded stealth.

On Topic: And the Witch Elf is certainly not suited to stealth one bit. It would ruin everything special about them, to such a point when really they are just "Generic Rogue #58."

[CapnSquig-WHA]

Hmmmm... We did in fact put a gag order on the subject of stealth yesterday, as folks did not seem to be able to control their reactions. Threads were closed infractions issued, that sort of thing.

I specifically forbade discussion of stealth at one time.

Garthilk put up an Alliance Poll in the News section, so that people could vote on their feelings about stealth. It's an extremely limited thread, in what you can talk about.

I would suggest everyone go read that post, vote on it, and state their issues in the limited manner that Garthilk is.

I will leave this thread open for now, but an Admin may chose to close it. I myself will close it if anyone gets out of line. As long as the discussion stays rationale it's OK, but obviously people are a little worked up.

But here's my contribution. We do not know what they mean by "stealth". The word means different things to different people.

And as a point specific to Witch Elves, one possible way to do it is to link it to speed. Moving extremely quickly can give the illusion of invisibility, temporarily. And Witch Elves are known for their blazing speed when in full grip of their blood fury.

[Ethandril]

Sorry, no way that Witch Elves should get stealth, it doesn't fit their combat style at all,
to murder unseen is a part of the Assassins, but not for the Witch Elves.

[Xurré]

We do not know what they mean by "stealth". The word means different things to different people.
Fair enough. For me I mean pretty much any form people generally can associate with stealth. So that's invisibility, chameleon skin, partial transparency, turning into a tree or some kind of shrubbery, disguise, hiding in shadows, burrowing underground, bending light around them, and crouching behind rocks and bushes. Any kind of ability to go unnoticed in battle in my opinion doesn't fit them.

Note, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't be careful and at times approach from unseen angles or such. But that's more in the way they're controlled. Making it a skill or such just wouldn't fit them as it says that it's a common tactic for them and something they spend a lot of time and attention on training.

And as a point specific to Witch Elves, one possible way to do it is to link it to speed. Moving extremely quickly can give the illusion of invisibility, temporarily. And Witch Elves are known for their blazing speed when in full grip of their blood fury.
True, but I'd call that a charge and implement that perhaps similar to how Hellgate London implements charge (for Blademasters); you don't see the character move from point A to point B; just that one moment they're at point A and the blink of an eye later they're at point B.

After all, if they move fast then they have to move to somewhere very fast. And wherever they go you should still see them. Unless you suggest they move faster than the speed of light. :p

But thanks for the contribution. It's an interesting thought at least. :)


- Xurré

[Lucrece]

If any career gets a stealth ability, it shouldn't be a DPS one.

Time after time, game after game, stealth in DPS classes have posed rather blatant balancing issues.

While being able to stealth may be fun to someone, it is definitely NOT fun for the character getting ambushed.

As for WE's getting stealth: They are flamboyant maenads; they do not play the "sneaky sneak" game.

[Sindal]

there are very VERY simple ways to balance it. VERY simple.

thats all I'm going to say on the subject

trust mythic and you shall be rewarded

[Axxar]

I'm against stealth, but if I had to look at the careers objectively, the shadow warrior would be the most likely to have stealth from a lore perspective. Witch elves would be some of the least likely (along with orcs).

[Xurré]

there are very VERY simple ways to balance it. VERY simple.
It's not about balance, it's about whether it's suitable to Witch Elves or not.

I don't really care how 'balanced' it is or isn't; Witch Elves simply shouldn't get any form of stealth. Because it doesn't fit with what they are.


- Xurré

[Seldaren]

Stealth on a Witch Elf just sounds wrong. WEs don't hide, they launch themselves into battle.

True, but I'd call that a charge and implement that perhaps similar to how Hellgate London implements charge (for Blademasters); you don't see the character move from point A to point B; just that one moment they're at point A and the blink of an eye later they're at point B.

But that, that's not stealth, but it does render the character sort of invisible.

So, let's go with the Capn's thought of speed-stealth and assume for a minute that there is stealth, but it is not traditional "hiding" stealth. It's not something you can do to walk around without anyone seeing you.
Make it an offensive thing that can be used by a somewhat squishy Melee-DPS class to close the distance to a target.

I don't like the idea of teleporting like the the HGL example, but make the character invis. But only while moving, and only when an enemy is targetted. And only for a couple seconds. And with a decent cool-down timer.
Also, put a range on it. So that you have to be X yards away, and once you get close enough the invis goes away.

I think that would be a way to put something in, but not be terribly unbalanced. It has enough constraints on it, that it's not nearly as bad as other games.
And to an extent, in terms of the speed part of it, it does sort of go with the Witch Elf Lore.

They wouldn't be skulking around in the shadows, they'd be flying forward, leading the battle. The alpha-strike of the DEs basically, sowing discord and confusion in the ranks of the enemies while the other, slower-moving, DEs race to catch up.
It could also result in WEs dying really messily and bloodily (if their buddies don't catch up in time), but that's what they want, right? :)

I think other incarnations of "invisiblity" and "stealth" have put people into a paradigm of sorts, and Mythic could well be trying to break out of that paradigm and do "invisibility" differently.

[Rasek]

If stealth is to be added i hope its added in a way like warcraft3 (not WoW), a casting skill.

> make it a casting skill(2-3 secs cast), or a out of combat skill
> it should last 8-15 secs.
> 30 secs - 5 minutes cooldown
> increase your speed by 10-20%

thats what i can think in 1 minute =D. I dont think stealth is imba, if applied the right way (never the WoW way)

[Zoatibix]

Witch Elves and stealth aren't very compatible imho. they don't sneak into houses on Death Night...they break into them!

On a side note, if they do introduce stealth maybe we will see Shades in a later expansion. A medium ranged stealthy shooter (not invisible but hard to pick out at range) could be interesting. But probably not balanced.

[The Penguin Hunter]

there are very VERY simple ways to balance it. VERY simple.

thats all I'm going to say on the subject

trust mythic and you shall be rewarded


I find that highly ironic considering that we were told by Mythic that there was no way in hell they'd put stealth into the game in the first place....

Also, on the Witch Elf matter, no they don't need stealth from a lore perspective, it's just not how they fight...

[Loekii]

Witch Elves and stealth aren't very compatible imho. they don't sneak into houses on Death Night...they break into them!

On a side note, if they do introduce stealth maybe we will see Shades in a later expansion. A medium ranged stealthy shooter (not invisible but hard to pick out at range) could be interesting. But probably not balanced.

I agree on both points.

However, I would hope that any form of 'stealth' they add -- if they add it -- does not go to the Dark Elves, nor the High Elves.

My prejudice, but I fear that giving either of these races that ability would just further polarize the races to immature (not age, but personality) players.

[zoa]

Just going to say a couple things,

The reason I am against stealth is because Mythic used it as an excuse not to include assassins and shades.

The reason I am against stealth for Witch Elves, is because it makes no sense for a crazy lunatic who throws babies into a cauldron, to hide from anything, for any reason.

I'm not against stealth in a game, I really don't mind it, but I don't like the way Mythic is doing all this, and yes I know there is no official word and such, but I won't be surprised if they do it. I guess we can take Mythic's word that stealth won't be in the game just as far as their word that guild beta would be soon.

If you felt I went to far or something, just let me know, but keep my points in here, delete the last paragraph if you want.

[Xurré]

I don't like the idea of teleporting like the the HGL example, but make the character invis. But only while moving, and only when an enemy is targetted. And only for a couple seconds. And with a decent cool-down timer.
Also, put a range on it. So that you have to be X yards away, and once you get close enough the invis goes away.
To be honest I really liked the HGL charge (for which, for those who don't know the game, you have to have an enemy targeted, it only works within some 20m of the target and you 'teleport' into melee starting with an attack). Though I'd rather see some "jump into combat" ability. Anyway, that's a different discussion.

It could also result in WEs dying really messily and bloodily (if their buddies don't catch up in time), but that's what they want, right? :)
Is there any better way to die? :mrgreen:


- Xurré

[Axxar]

Is there any better way to die? :mrgreen:
- XurréWell there's always suffocating beneath a mountain of corpses from an Empire regiment.

[Shalaa]

I think i made my feelings heard on this yesterday for both Witch Elves and the game in general. Im with Xurre on this and voted no no no no nooooooooooooo

[Lord Tareq]

Witch Elves should definately not get stealth, camouflage, or anything similar that doesn't involve making your opponent aware of you from at least 200 yards with frantic high-pitched screams.

The only class in the game that could possibly warrant some sort of stealth, would be the shadowwarrior.

[Grondoth]

It just doesn't fit the Witch Elves. I can understand why they might want it in for that class, but it absolutely does not fit with the character and lore of the class.

[Zunjin]

While I talked about giving stealth in general to players in a earlier post, I have now looked through what others written and thought abit more myself on the subject. Stealth in any way in a mmorpg where we are fighting skimrishes and not war doesnt fit the witch elf in anyway is my conclusion. As so I finally made my vote stricktly against it.

[damsel]

there are very VERY simple ways to balance it. VERY simple.

thats all I'm going to say on the subject

trust mythic and you shall be rewarded


No, stealth unbalances every game it has ever been in

The ability is either under-appreciated by devs or over-apprecaited by devs

the former makes the class have a overpowered ability due to aspect of suprise, and the other makes the class useless because it can go invisible

So no, there are no very simple ways to balance, except for not having it, that is simple

If Mythic implements stealth, i will most likely NOT buy the game, it is destructive to RvR (and very uncreative)

And if mythic gives witch elfs stealth, I think I will need to inform they they are making female only assasins, and not witch elfs....Stealth is a horrible idea all the way around, and especially horrible for Witch elfs


So No, I am not going to "trust mythic", I honestly trust two things in this world, myself and my God.....No room on that list for mythic, because last time I trusted them to make a good decision they messed it up severeally.

It's not about balance, it's about whether it's suitable to Witch Elves or not.

I don't really care how 'balanced' it is or isn't; Witch Elves simply shouldn't get any form of stealth. Because it doesn't fit with what they are.


- Xurré

Didn't you get the memo, the lore is "evolving" for "gameplay" in WAR, so far it seems mythic is making assasins with boobs and a bra....

[Malal]

I'm with Xurre on this one WE shouldnt get stealth in any form....there frothing psychos with a penchant for bloodlust and bathing in it.....about as subtle as a steam tank :roll:

[Sinfjotle]

A steam tank without a muffler!

If steam tanks have mufflers that is.

I voted no. This is probably something I'd actually quit over and return to my existence of console games.

[Daedarin]

I voted absolutely no. I agree with Xurré that Witch Elves are frenzied whirlwinds of daggers, that would not even have a clue to conceal themselves on the battlefield. Hell, they don't even know how to conceal their body... Too much raving madness high pitched screaming around their whereabouts. IMO the only class in the game thus far coming near to having stealth is the Shadow Warrior. It is an infiltrator in the TT and is designed towards being stealthed ambusher (from the looks that is). If they deside to have a stealth class, let it be a stationary in the vicinity of vegetation stealth. Invisibility like a wow rogue is just about as cool as an itch in the rear end...

And if they only give it to the SW? So what? Does every race have to have a direct opposite at launch? Might even make more sense to put in a shade at the release of an expansion then. That would mean stealth for Order at launch and then make the White Lion a non pet elven AX monster and pet class only available for Destruction.

[dutch_gamer]

I voted no as well. It goes against everything Witch Elves stand for. When there is stealth and the Witch Elves get it, they should have picked Assassins instead as the MDPS. And on Order they would only have the Shadow Warrior as the "right" candidate, but I detest an RDPS with stealth even more than an MDPS with stealth. It also really doesn't matter what type of stealth they could put into the game, every type of stealth is bad. Stealth, in my opinion, is a flawed concept that simply can't work no matter how you approach it.

And if they only give it to the SW? So what? Does every race have to have a direct opposite at launch? Might even make more sense to put in a shade at the release of an expansion then. That would mean stealth for Order at launch and then make the White Lion a non pet elven AX monster and pet class only available for Destruction.

When there is stealth on one side, there should be stealth on the other side as well, to balance out the game. Stealth is simply too much of an advantage when only one side has it. I don't consider having or not having a pet class an advantage, unless the pet's AI is horrible (But then you can simply opt to not play the career and hopefully the developer would get the signal to do something about it).

[Shalaa]

Correct me if im wrong but Shadow Warriors are named because they live in the Shadowlands not because they have stealth abilities.

The only reason i can see any kind of stealth being implemented is from beta feedback, it might be overwhelming pressure from fans of other games that i wont mention but thats purely speculation on my part.

[Lord Tareq]

Correct me if im wrong but Shadow Warriors are named because they live in the Shadowlands not because they have stealth abilities.

The only reason i can see any kind of stealth being implemented is from beta feedback, it might be overwhelming pressure from fans of other games that i wont mention but thats purely speculation on my part.

They are a light archery unit, that stalk the lands and in particular the blighted Island. They are described as shooting arrows at invading Dark Elves out of nowhere. In Warhammer TT they specified as "scouts", which means they have the ability to deploy in a forward position, far closer to the enemy then any other unit.
I'm not saying they should have stealth, but it would be the only class in WAR where it makes some sense.

[PersonalRiot]

I would ask that Witch Elfs don't receive stealth. Why?

They aren't about being stealthy, even in the tabletop, also on the side of the Dark Eldar Witches(Which I know better). They are the get in your face and hack to to pieces, their armour is their ability not to get hit(avoidance). I just think a witch elf hiding quietly in a bush for someone to walk by so they can quietly slit their throats is....a horrible thought.

I rather have them screaming for blood and running around the battlefield dodging projectiles then being "uber" ninjas(That thought makes me cry).

[Xurré]

I'm with Xurre on this one WE shouldnt get stealth in any form....there frothing psychos with a penchant for bloodlust and bathing in it.....about as subtle as a steam tank :roll:
Heehee, I like that. :mrgreen:


Correct me if im wrong but Shadow Warriors are named because they live in the Shadowlands not because they have stealth abilities.
Well, it's that but I think it's more than just that. They also have the name because they tend to be a shade darker (in character) than other high elves (since they're also from Nagarythe like the dark elves they're in between dark and light in that sense). And they also have stealth connections in the tabletop game:

Scouts: The war of the Shadow Warriors is one of stealth and cunning, concealment and ambush. In battles they are often deployed ahead of the army to break up enemy attacks. Shadow Warriors are Scouts.
Not saying that they should get stealth in WAR or anything, but of all classes in the game they're definitely the most suitable, lore-wise, to get stealth.

Witch Elves are pretty much on the opposite extreme end of the "lore-wise suitable to get stealth" scale. In fact, going by lore they should probably get skills that make everyone else in a 10-mile radius aware what they are and where they can be found.

Let the enemy come to you. :p


- Xurré

[Daedarin]

I don't see it being a big no-go if the Dest wouldn't get a stealth class. I for one wouldn't take it as my main. Don't like the sneaky guys that much. And as I stated. Let them have the pet class then...

I actually like when there is divergence between the factions...

[Lord Tareq]

I don't see it being a big no-go if the Dest wouldn't get a stealth class. I for one wouldn't take it as my main. Don't like the sneaky guys that much. And as I stated. Let them have the pet class then...

I actually like when there is divergence between the factions...

Exactly, I don't understand at all why mythic insists on that dumb mirroring system.

[abr4]

But here's my contribution. We do not know what they mean by "stealth". The word means different things to different people.

Any kind of stealth is bad stealth for a witch elf.
They are too evasive for my taste as it is.

[Axxar]

Exactly, I don't understand at all why mythic insists on that dumb mirroring system.It could be a clever effort to balance the populations. People wanting to play a certain style of character will find something like it on either side.

[damsel]

Exactly, I don't understand at all why mythic insists on that dumb mirroring system.

Its because people complain if one side has something that the other side doesn't

it is dumb, true, but that is why


I honestly hate mirror balancing

Instead of giving us 6 killer mechanics, we get 3 that are duplicated with a new body skin

How boring

[Shalaa]

They are a light archery unit, that stalk the lands and in particular the blighted Island. They are described as shooting arrows at invading Dark Elves out of nowhere. In Warhammer TT they specified as "scouts", which means they have the ability to deploy in a forward position, far closer to the enemy then any other unit.
I'm not saying they should have stealth, but it would be the only class in WAR where it makes some sense.

Yeah i'm aware of the infiltration rule that wasn't what i was getting at ;)

And thanx Xurre i should have mentioned they have a more neutral alignment that sort of backs up what i was getting at. Hehe quoting from HE book you heretic :-D

[Xurré]

Hehe quoting from HE book you heretic :-D
Know your enemy. ;)

Though knowing where you have to stab them to make them dead is probably enough. :p


- Xurré

[Shalaa]

Know your enemy. ;)

Though knowing where you have to stab them to make them dead is probably enough. :p


- Xurré

Don't worry i wont tell anyone we dont want to give away our tactics do we. :mrgreen:

[Ayetalam]

I didn't quite read this last page, so I didn't see if anyone mentioned these points.

First of all, Stealth only fits the MDPS archetype. Here is my reasoning:
A stealthing tank is pointless. He is there to soak up damage, not to avoid it.
A stealthing Ranged DPS would be incredibly overpowered. Shoot shoot, stealth, get distance,shoot shoot.
A stealthing healer, would only work for the Disciple, but would be a bit of a waste, because he needs to heal, and cast many other spells, and will increase survivability ten fold.

MDPS is the only class to benefit from Stealth without making it useless or overpowered.

Now, since we limit it to the MDPS class. Witch Elves are the only logical choice, regardless of lore. I personally think its stupid aswell if they give WE stealth, they should have added Assassins instead if they wanted stealth. But here is the logic:

Orc Choppa: Way too bulky and huge, can you possible see that sized of a monster stealthing?
Chaos Marauder: Same thing, can you see a huge bulky nordic man wiht huge mutated arms, being stealthy?
Witch Elf: Fast, lean, speedy and agile. Makes for perfect stealthing.

It just sounds even more stupid on the other Melee DPS.

Same thing goes for order if you want to narrow down to who gets the stealth there:
Hammerer: Its a stubby dwarf with huge hammers, doubt he can stealth, and Dwarfs aren't known for their stealthing abilities.
Witch Hunter: Human, can be agile and fast, though has a big hat that can hinder it.
White Lion (if included): It will be hard getting a pet to stealth along with you, he is a beefier High Elf with a huge 2 handed weapon (also speculation from HE forums).

Which leads to believe its the Witch Hunter, which suprise suprise, is the Witch Elf mirror on the Order side.

So there is my reasoning on if they added stealth, why Witch Elf and Witch Hunter will be getting it. The other MDPS classes just don't fit the idea of stealth. WH and WE actually fit the idea of stealth.

I just wanted to add my point of view on the subject. Even though I think its stupid of them making Witch Elf the class, and then giving it stealth. They would have been better off with Assassins. but I guess male perversion trumps all.

[Shalaa]

I didn't quite read this last page, so I didn't see if anyone mentioned these points.

Yeah i made a similar post on the original thread thats now locked, seems alot of people share this view with us. ;)

[Ayetalam]

Yeah i made a similar post on the original thread thats now locked, seems alot of people share this view with us. ;)

I dont think its a good idea to give Stealth to WE lore wise and just in general, its just the only class in the game tht comes closest to fitting is the Witch Elf, so if stealth does go in, it will most likely be a Witch Elf, just because the Witch Elf fits the best, no other reason.

[Xurré]

Orc Choppa: Way too bulky and huge, can you possible see that sized of a monster stealthing?
Chaos Marauder: Same thing, can you see a huge bulky nordic man wiht huge mutated arms, being stealthy?
Witch Elf: Fast, lean, speedy and agile. Makes for perfect stealthing.
You're forgetting loud, screaming, frenzying, runs into combat head-first, ignores all danger and safety to themselves, doesn't have enough control of their faculties to sit still and hide, not enough patience to move around sneakily.

If you can see that hide then you can see anything hide.

So tell me, if we'd throwing the lore out of the window (and giving stealth to Witches wouldn't even be breaking anymore, it's ignoring Warhammer completely) to give Witches stealth then what exactly would be the problem with giving any other class (particularly melee damage classes) stealth? After all, we long since stopped making sense in this case so why wouldn't a Choppa be able to hide? Why wouldn't a mutating Marauder be able to hide?

Same on the Order side; why wouldn't a Hammerer hide? Might even give the class something actually unique to set it apart. Or the White Lion; hiding pets worked just fine for Hunters in WoW. Witchhunters? Need to sneak up on those chaos worshipers, don't you.

If you throw the lore that much out the window then you can do pretty much anything you want. male Witch Elves? Sure, why not. Female Greenskins? Hey, we need customization options. Heck, let's also make quests Greenskins and Dwarfs can do together as allies. Oh, and there's these cool aliens in 40K that we might want to add too... and I'm sure we can come up with some cool new robot race to be invented by the half-gnome, half-wendersnaven mad scientists for the next expansion.

Of course, what'd be the point of calling it Warhammer then.

Seriously, I know people, including the devs, tend to laugh at those of us who like to remain some semblance of the lore (and we're really far more tolerant than people seem to give us credit for), but come now, do show some respect for the setting.


- Xurré

[Hnbmilk]

Witch elves are not a stealth class. If anybody gets stealth it should be the shadow warrior...

[Darlos]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no!


























































NO!
Witch Elves are already gonna attract hordes of l337 horny idiots to the Dark Elves, I don't want WoW Rogue wannabes CCing me with names like "Hornysexyrouge" "Cyboringrouge"

Games Workshop probably wouldn't let them anyway, heck i'm suprised the 'Jump away' thing made it through Games Workshop...

[Ayetalam]

You're forgetting loud, screaming, frenzying, runs into combat head-first, ignores all danger and safety to themselves, doesn't have enough control of their faculties to sit still and hide, not enough patience to move around sneakily.



Thats the thing. Stealth isnt sit still and hide. its moving with invisibility. They can scream, frenzy go head first, ignore danger and saftey, but while invisible. No one ever said they will be stuck in one spot, or get a speed debuff, some games give you a speed increase in stealth.

So depending on how they do it, it will still be WE that fits it the best.

[Xurré]

Stealth isnt sit still and hide. its moving with invisibility. They can scream, frenzy go head first, ignore danger and saftey, but while invisible.
:shock:

So you're saying that the best way to remain invisible and not attract attention is by screaming from the top of your longs?

Somehow I doubt you'd make it very far in rogue school. :p


- Xurré

[Shalaa]

I dont think its a good idea to give Stealth to WE lore wise and just in general, its just the only class in the game tht comes closest to fitting is the Witch Elf, so if stealth does go in, it will most likely be a Witch Elf, just because the Witch Elf fits the best, no other reason.

Yes lore wise Witch elves dress this way to be intimidating in a similar way to celtic warriors in times past i suppose and also as a destraction and plenty of other reasons too there is a thread on this forum giving far better examples than i can think of right now.

When it comes to table top game mechanics you must understand the frenzy rule and also hatred. The rules may have changed slightly from when i played but i'm sure sombody will correct me if I get this wrong.

With frenzy rule you cannot parry incoming blows and you gain an extra attack, this is due to loosing control and self preservation is neglected. Frenzied characters will charge full speed towards the nearest enemy and engage in melee combat. Yes its a little overkill to represent this in an mmo but i think u get the picture.

Hatred Dark elves hate High Elves and vice versa, its similar to frenzy but my memory is a little hazy i'm sure sombody will will comment and give exact details. This is another reason why Shadow warriors and Witch elves should not be able to use any kind of stealth.

[Ayetalam]

:shock:

So you're saying that the best way to remain invisible and not attract attention is by screaming from the top of your longs?

Somehow I doubt you'd make it very far in rogue school. :p


- Xurré

Well depends, it can be used as a deceptive tactic. You got to spot A, scream and yell, they turn around, you quickly move over to spot B, and dismember them silly because they wont be able to concentrate on other tings when they concentrate on teh yell.

Its not that much of a rogue tactic than a confusion tactic.

But anyways, I posted the logical reasons for them to add it to WE, I personally cant say much. I dont really lik WE to begin with, which is a bummer, since I love rogue classes. I just dont want to be a near naked female rogue as my avatar. So I have little room to say what the WE should be since I have no care for what they do to them, or anything. Hence these are my first 3 posts in this forum, adn I only posted because is on the topic of stealth.

I dont mean to offend anyone from my above paragraph. I know many poeple love the WE and im happy that you do. Aesthetically, it snot my cup of tea. Its why I wait for Skaven assassins in the expansion to get my rogue fix. ( and my rogueish healer)

[Sinfjotle]

Well, here's a problem already. You seem to be under the impression Witch Elves are rogues.

[Ayetalam]

Well, here's a problem already. You seem to be under the impression Witch Elves are rogues.

Because from what Ive seen, its what they are turning them into.

[Kiyamvir]

I agree with the sentiment of your original post entirely, Xurré. Yet somehow, despite it feeling like only another betrayal to the Witch Elves, I also feel that perhaps after having been supplanted in all, they deserve to be reforged. I have little desire to foster the remnants of the Witch Elves, and instead would prefer to see their persona further reworked.

It seemed awfully silly to create brighter and shinier Witch Elves, but now that they exist, a compromise might as well be made between their original identity and that of the Assassins. While this is how I personally feel, I understand that this would only be yet another blow dealt to true fans of the Druchii, and respect the desire to protect both the Witch Elves and Assassins from any such thing.

I have actually opted to distance myself from the Warhammer Fantasy Lore, despite my interest, because though I can sympathize with your plight, I have no intention of developing a fondness for something that might be evolved or expanded upon in a way that compromises what it is that I originally cared for.

[Dukha]

Speaking strictly from a perspective of game mechanics I can see why Witch Elfes are a slightly better choice than Choppas and Marauders.

They are smaller.

They wear less armour.

Of course they also power their abilites with Frenzy and placing stealth next to frenzy is to me a bit of a stretch... Actually with that in mind a better candidate may actually be Marauders who may well be the most composed career of the three. Since both witches and Choppas use frenzy or something similar unlike the marauders who, as far as I know, don't. I know it's flimsy ;).
Here's something even more flimsier (really, I mean that :mrgreen:). Marauders actually have somewhat of a lore connection with being stealthy. They are as far as I understand it modeled from vikings who used stealthlike tactics when attacking monasteries and suchlike from their warships. The stealthpart being that they attacked seemingly from nowhere...

Oh, and for the record I voted "No".

[Xurré]

Hatred Dark elves hate High Elves and vice versa
Small correction, but High Elves don't get Hatred (at least not according to my sourcebook). Instead they get Stoic, which makes them immune to panic when fighting Dark Elves. Now that's 6th edition I think so it might have changed in 7th edition (though I'd say "hatred" doesn't really fit with High Elves in general).


something that might be evolved or expanded upon in a way that compromises what it is that I originally cared for.
Not directed at you Kiyamvir, but in general I'm getting really, really sick of people using the excuse "things evolve/get expanded upon". It seems to be pretty much the excuse for every bloody thing these days.

People who come here because of Warhammer don't come here, I believe, for an "expanded" Warhammer, they come here for the Warhammer as we know it. That there must be changes and additions I accept and to certain degree even welcome. But it seems to be the first answer for everything now without even trying to stay true to the spirit of the setting anymore.

And yes, that galls me.

Of course, we'll still have to see if they'd go that way too with Witch Elves. But I've trusted EA Mythic and Games Workshop before and I feel they've thrown it in my face. No more. I don't trust them on anything anymore until they prove me different.

Witch Elves just don't use stealth of any kind. They just don't. And I think I've explained in enough detail why not (though if people want more I'd be glad to give it a shot).


- Xurré

[Kiyamvir]

It seems to be pretty much the excuse for every bloody thing these days. People who come here because of Warhammer don't come here, I believe, for an "expanded" Warhammer, they come here for the Warhammer as we know it. That there must be changes and additions I accept and to certain degree even welcome. But it seems to be the first answer for everything now without even trying to stay true to the spirit of the setting anymore. And yes, that galls me.

- Xurré

Galled? As you should be. I too normally have a profound distaste for the warping of something so beloved. I lack your familiarity with the setting is all, and so I cannot truly feel your pain. This lack of familiarity, however, does not make me insensitive to your position. I would hate to see the degeneration of something that you love simply because I do not share that same feeling for this particular universe. Were another setting that I cared for, assaulted in such a way, even if by the creator them self, I would vehemently strike out. I do believe I was unclear in my first post about my position in this discussion.

And so I have come back to further explain my personal desire in regards to the development of the Witch Elves and the possible addition of Stealth. I wish to make it clear that I do not advocate making stealth a large part of the Witch Elf repertoire, because it is quite obviously contrary to their very identity. While I do state above that I would not be averse to a blending of Witch Elves and Assassins, the comment stems from my personal distaste for what I consider to be the death of who the Witch Elves once were. Being that I consider them already to be dead, I was ready to resign myself to something less.

Despite how it was said, I only truly meant to suggest for an adaptation of elements of the unimplemented class for the Witch Elves, partially reshaping them yes, in hopes of bettering their current incarnation. I am of course in opposition to the Witch Elf being merely the Assassin in disguise. Their clothing and gender restriction may suit the perversion of mmorpg history, but it is obvious that those elements were wanted because they suited her identity and nature, not because we merely have an affinity for chain mail bikinis. It would be horribly unfortunate for the Witch Elves to be a sexier reincarnation of the class that would have much better suited WAR had stealth been on the table, with the Disciple already having supplanted the Witch Elf.

With their "penchant for blood lust and bathing in it" and their tendency to run into battle while making good use of their lungs, it of course would be ridiculous for them to have stealth as it has been implemented in the past. But I agree with others in their protest that perhaps we need only to reapproach stealth and throw our current vision of it out the window. To run around invisible on the field of battle is ridiculous not only for the Witch Elves.

Abilities like the one suggested regarding the "teleportation" of melee classes while engaged in combat, is what I would like to see. While not necessarily regarded as stealth abilities, because our vision of stealth seems to be set in stone, this is what I would like to see, and I do myself consider abilities in that vein to be stealth.

[RockpapperWaagh]

witch elves are twin bladesaws of doom
you dont hide your twin bladesaws of doom behind a tree, you throw it at a priest of sigmar.

stealth is not a WE mechanic in my book. ill be sad if they put it in, not livid, but sad.

[Shalaa]

Small correction, but High Elves don't get Hatred (at least not according to my sourcebook). Instead they get Stoic, which makes them immune to panic when fighting Dark Elves. Now that's 6th edition I think so it might have changed in 7th edition (though I'd say "hatred" doesn't really fit with High Elves in general)

Fair enough, its been years since i played i stopped playing when the first vampire counts army book came out well just after the DE book came out and poison effected undead that was the icng on the cake for me, i just wish i kept all my books (fond memories) I remember when dwarves hated high elves :roll:

[Sindal]

It's not about balance, it's about whether it's suitable to Witch Elves or not.

I don't really care how 'balanced' it is or isn't; Witch Elves simply shouldn't get any form of stealth. Because it doesn't fit with what they are.


- Xurré

oh sorry, I misunderstood =p

yea you're right 100% of course, it doens't fit at all... however it doesn't fit much else either, other then the shadow warrior of course. I would bet my money however that shadow warrior doesn't get stealth

*puts on flame retardent clothes*

IMO we will see witch hunter/witch elf with some form of limited stealth (runs out of the room screaming)

[Zunjin]

oh sorry, I misunderstood =p

yea you're right 100% of course, it doens't fit at all... however it doesn't fit much other then the shadow warrior much better. I would bet my money however that shadow warrior doens't get stealth though

*puts on flame retardent clothes*

IMO we will see witch hunter/witch elf with some form of limited stealth (runs out of the room screaming)

* Brings the flame thrower *

On a serious note, you dont think stealth fits a scout ( shadow warrior ) then a zealot ( witch elf ). Or in better comparsion a guerrila soldier (shadow warrior ) against a frenzy warrior ( witch elf ).
Or did I just missunderstood you?

[Shalaa]

* Bring the flame thrower *

On a serious note, you dont think stealth fits a scout ( shadow warrior ) then a zealot ( witch elf ). Or in better comparsion a guerrila soldier (shadow warrior ) against a frenzy warrior ( witch elf ).
Or did I just missunderstood you?

I just think he was trying to provoke us witch elves into a bloodlust kill frenzy. :mrgreen:

[Anglakhel]

* Brings the flame thrower *

On a serious note, you dont think stealth fits a scout ( shadow warrior ) then a zealot ( witch elf ). Or in better comparsion a guerrila soldier (shadow warrior ) against a frenzy warrior ( witch elf ).
Or did I just missunderstood you?

He's saying that Shadow Warrior is the only career it really fits lore-wise. It's grammatically a little difficult, but I'm quite confident that was his point.

A rephrase:

No career in WAR fits with stealth very well, other than the Shadow Warrior.

[Sindal]

angh is right, I don't know what I was smoking when I wrote that

[Sinfjotle]

Whatever it is, I want some.

[Zunjin]

angh is right, I don't know what I was smoking when I wrote that

Well, I should have figured that out. That post of mine didnt really contribute with anything.

[Maelstromwen]

It makes me wonder if anyone has ever seen a woman fighting on the streets (happens a lot in the local town, just ask Shalaa :rolleyes:)

Most of them scream and hiss and cant stop swearing constantly while they are doing it, and these people are not subject to frenzy, they are just drunk, so how noisy would a frenzying one be.

Personally this is as bad as if they ever brought in a Khorne Chosen who was able to cast spells.

Part of the reson i decided i would come to this game was that i have long been a Tzeench player, and have had the Dark elf book in view to buying an army (until everyone local stopped playing), add to this certain mechanics were not going to be included, one of them the whole "phat loot" thing the other is stealth, if Mythic keeps on going back on thier words the same as Bethesda did then i think i may just tell this game to go and jump as well

[Kharlene]

For the sake of 'something to blame' I hope that no career gets stealth. If there were careers to get it, however, witch elves would be the most likely. A lot of people would expect shadow warriors, but with the ability to shoot and move, it would be an insane bonus.

Wouldn't be any different than the Ranger, Hunter, and Scout class in DAoC, all archers with stealth who possessed far more range than the Hunters in WoW, just as a point of reference. But their stealth generally wasn't that good... at least in comparison to the "assassin" classes (Nightshade, Infiltrator, and Shadowblade). But all it did was make them extremely dangerous at range, but up close by in large they were gimped. Heck, the Hunter (the archer-class for Midgard side in DAoC) even had a frickin' pet, so basically it was like an NE Hunter who not only could stealth but MOBILIZE while stealthed, but they were still simple enough to bring down, because again at range they were deadliest, but up-close, they are screwed, especially against a Light specced Eldritch or the like who could debuff/blind a targets accuracy from a far greater range than any of the archers from 50% to even 60% if memory serves.

But I digress, it's more easily balanced than most may think, albeit many would whine about it and cry nerf rather than learn how to destroy them, and this is coming from someone who played primarily casters in the game which were the archers' in DAoC easiest prey (they could drop a caster in just a few, even a couple shots, and every now and again when the situation permitted it, one shot - no sweat).

So in short, if they are going to give any class stealth in the game, it will likely be the Shadow Warriors (it just makes the most sense) and their counterpart the Squig Herder do to them be crafty, sneaky little goblins n' all. It doesn't make sense for any of the other classes.

[Xiara]

I will not play a Witch Elf if they are given stealth. It makes absolutely no sense.

[Tmesis]

no stealth please :<

[Zihark]

Stealth really shoudn't be in this game in any form, really. If it is, I will be really dissapointed in Mythic since they stated that stealth= not fun (for those beeing killed) and that is so very true so then they will go against their own ideas of having a fun and gank-free game. Also, if they actually give stealth to witch elves i will be even more dissapointed since that is the least fitting skill for a witch elf, they arn't very stealthy at all.

[ShiroRX]

Stealth in the traditional sense would not, but from the water cooler talk it sounds like if they do get something (;)) it would be very tactical and situational, and would not make them a stealth class.

[Xurré]

Stealth in the traditional sense would not, but from the water cooler talk it sounds like if they do get something (;)) it would be very tactical and situational, and would not make them a stealth class.
It's not about making them a stealth class. It's that stealth in general just doesn't fit them at all. Any kind of stealth is absolutely wrong (including cups of water).

There are better ways to make a class more tactical and situational.


- Xurré

[ShiroRX]

It's not about making them a stealth class. It's that stealth in general just doesn't fit them at all. Any kind of stealth is absolutely wrong (including cups of water).

There are better ways to make a class more tactical and situational.


- Xurré

Lol. It's really not stealth, it's stretching to call it that. Something tells me you are aware of what I'm talking about though.

You're pretty unbending when it comes to lore deviation anyway, it will be fine lol. Won't help you any when Black Guards beat you down in duels inside the Ark anyway. El oh El ;)

[Sinfjotle]

If they have stealth, it better not completely suck either. That's just flipping idiotic.

[MrCrabclaw]

Giving them stealth would make them the ultimate kiddy magnet.

Chain mail bikinis, stealth and general rogue gameplay.
(I know their warrior priestess but they'r a dps class. They wont be taking a beating)

[ShiroRX]

Man...information barriers are very lame.

I'll leave you with this: Do not worry WE players. You'll be just fine. I've extensively played stealth, tanking, and melee dps classes in many games and it will be just fine for you guys.

[BowieHero]

stealth(complete invisibility in plain sight) = unnecessary grandfathered aspect of mmos from the original days

is not a given part of the mmo model, and only enhances gameplay for one segment of the playerbase while taking away from others.

hiding in bushes/behind trees etc. = real stealth, available to everyone.

[Xurré]

You're pretty unbending when it comes to lore deviation anyway, it will be fine lol.
I'm far from unbending when it comes to lore deviations. In fact I've been very supportive of changes they've made for the sake of the game. Including when it comes to Witch Elves.

When they showed the Agile Escape ability I defended it. When they said that Witch Elves are the closest to rogues int he game I defended it. But that's when I thought that would be the worst of it, as it turns out it's just the tip of the iceberg.

It's just way, way, way too much. Of all the races it seems that Dark Elves are by far worse off lore-wise. High Elves get pretty much exactly the kind of classes that best fit them (with the possible exception of adding a pet to the White Lion). But Dark Elves seem to be implemented completely contradictory to their nature, what, just because EA Mythic wants to make them different from the high Elves? Just because there's some ridiculous mirroring that they could've solved a hundred times better with some more careful thought?

We get Sorceresses who seem more interested in blowing stuff (including themselves) up like little kids instead of being the calculated masterminds they should be. We get male Sorceress (which, btw, I also defended) with some lame excuse of "well, Malekith says it's ok now". We get the absolutely worst possible class they could put in the game, lore-wise, in the support career (for reasons too many to list here, see my sig instead). And now it seems more and more that they're not even really implementing Witch Elves as crazed killing machines but instead as Assassins in bikinis, leaking in as much Assassin-style abilities (including things like making themselves unnoticed it looks like) as they can.

There just doesn't seem to be an end to it and it makes me very, very worried at what more crap they've got going on in the game that we're not even aware of yet.

Changes and bends in the lore for the sake of the game are alright. But this is just way, way too much. This looks more like they're making DAoC 2 with a thin veneer of Warhammer to draw the eye away from the spots of rust.

Witch Elves do not stealth or hide or make it so people don't see them in any way, shape or form. They're maniacal killers, not sneaky assassins.


- Xurré

[ShiroRX]

And they won't be sneaky assassins. They are definitely not assassins.

[Rotgut_Eadsmasha]

NO.

A billion times no. And they probably won't have stealth... but people read too much in little things... soon people will think the Chosen is a pet/tank cause there's a screen shot with one and 2 Chaos Hounds...

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/newsletter/2008_01/ch_01.jpg MUST BE A PET CLASS IN HEAVY ARMOR!!1!111

[Tmesis]

Witch Elves are pretty much on the opposite extreme end of the "lore-wise suitable to get stealth" scale. In fact, going by lore they should probably get skills that make everyone else in a 10-mile radius aware what they are and where they can be found.

Let the enemy come to you. :p


- Xurré

I like ^^.

[Eljewster]

I think this thread's poll speaks for itself, a very small segment of the population will love stealth... aka the people who play the stealth class

meanwhile...

EVERYONE ELSE WILL HATE IT

[Dukha]

Hmm, personally I'm wondering how many of those that voted "Yes, they absolutely should get stealth " seriously thinks that they should and not just trying to piss people off...

[Iscra]

I’d rather they didn’t get stealth

From the lore (and I know only Mythic WAR lore, not GW) it seems to me stealth ability doesn't really suit Witch Elves.
I see Witch Elves and he melee DPS archetype more like DAOC light tanks, definietely not like DAOC stealther. They should get Charge, not Stealth.
Dual Wield and positional styles makes them certainly most roguelike class, but it's a melee DPS archetype, not rogue archetype.

For real stealth, if wished, just add an expansion with new classes, which would suit it more, like Assassin or something...

Still not absolutely against it - if Paul explains in the next podcast that Witch Elves get stealth and how nice it is, everyone will buy it ;). Can't really help it. Most important is to have fun playing the game.

And with all those threads about stealth here, we really need the Iraqi Information Minister to confirm that there is no stealth in WAR. :mrgreen:

[Xurré]

stealth ability really doesn't suit Witch Elves.
Fixed. ;)

They should get Charge, not Stealth.
QFT

I'd love to see them have some charge ability, maybe something like the Blademaster in Hellgate London perhaps. That fits Witch Elves. That is how they get close to enemies. I can even see some kind of "leap into combat" ability (that's pretty much the reverse of the agile escape one).

But not stealth of any kind.


- Xurré

[APimpNamedSlickbork]

Xurre, you're going to have to see this. (http://uk.gamespot.com/video/520538/6186186/videoplayerpop?)
Six minutes in, Witch Elf seems to go semi transparent and loses aggro.
I'm not liking what I see.

[Senjo]

Xurre, you're going to have to see this. (http://uk.gamespot.com/video/520538/6186186/videoplayerpop?)
Six minutes in, Witch Elf seems to go semi transparent and loses aggro.
I'm not liking what I see.

You have no idea what sort of hell you've unleashed...

[Gemini]

I don't think that was stealth, it looked more like a detaunt skill, though I gotta admit fading out like that seems odd. I guess it coulda been stealth, I dunno. Maybe we'll find out in this newsletter.

[Ayetalam]

I don't think that was stealth, it looked more like a detaunt skill, though I gotta admit fading out like that seems odd. I guess it coulda been stealth, I dunno. Maybe we'll find out in this newsletter.

As much as people might want to believe its a detaunt, it doesn't seem like it, its rare to see a detaunt make you fade like that. Like ive said in many posts, if they made stealth burn AP or some sort of disadvantage, you wont be able to keep it on for long or wont want to.

[Klippa]

Lol? Stealth or no stealth... I would bash their head in anyway. 8)

[Lord Tareq]

That definately looks like stealth...unbelievable.:(

[Shalaa]

I think I'm going to cry. Oh well help me choose a new class to play i'm feeling a bit down.

[Xurré]

Lol? Stealth or no stealth... I would bash their head in anyway. 8)
With the way Mythic is doing things, I would let you.


- Xurré

[Dagoth]

As much as people might want to believe its a detaunt, it doesn't seem like it, its rare to see a detaunt make you fade like that.

Well, WoW Priest's detaunt does exactly that.

[Klippa]

Calm down! We have not yet seen a Witch Blade-movie where somebody who knows how to do things is playing. Don't base your oppinion on that sucky guy, he just stood there, jumped a little and ocationally did a few attacks... Also it's tier 1, so the clothes was sucky too.

Cheer up! I'm sure we are getting good fotage soon. Also i want to face some of you WB's at launch :)

[Tmesis]

Doesn't look like stealth at all. She is still attacking the back target and the back target is still attacking her.

The mob infront of her has the aggro taken from the WE by Ulo right at the same time.

If anything i'd say it's one of those elixir skills that perhaps increases your dodge.


Stop fretting.

[Veriag]

From what I can make out, I'm not too worried about what I can see apart from that awful low level gear:confused:. Needless to say I'm not planning on wearing that one too long ;). And thats probably half the reason for such awful stuff, the good stuff wil seem so much better.

It does look to me as though this is some power granted by an elixir as the avatar makes the same action prior to the 'effect' that it has done on previous vid's where the narrator has been explaining the use of elixirs. It was also worth noting that this was not used to enter combat and prior to engagment several of the hotkeys were faded out. Another point was the effect lasted a few seconds only, the effects of which were not really that clear but probably some sort of damage avoidance or debuff. I think I saw damage being dealt by the WE though so....in all, I'd need to see a lot more evidence of real stealthing before I start getting too excited.

And we should all remember. This is only BETA so things can still change alot for better or for worse.

[Browncoat-WHA]

Doesn't look like stealth at all. She is still attacking the back target and the back target is still attacking her.

The mob infront of her has the aggro taken from the WE by Ulo right at the same time.

If anything i'd say it's one of those elixir skills that perhaps increases your dodge.


Stop fretting.

Fretting is fine, as long as people don't descend into Chicken Little syndrome, which is basically fretting + coming to what is purported as a definitive conclusion based on very little, which, honestly, this is. It's 3 seconds of a video with almost no context for the combat. Very little can be drawn upon this except that apparently there are abilities (abilities that can still be changed since this is beta) that can make you turn transparent.

Speculation is fine, definitive conclusions based upon that speculation is what messes up threads. Let's remember that as we continue discussing.

[Xurré]

Very little can be drawn upon this except that apparently there are abilities (abilities that can still be changed since this is beta) that can make you turn transparent.
On that note, is there anyone who thinks that such an animation, for whatever exactly the ability does, is an appropriate one for Witch Elves? Anyone who sees that animation of them turning transparent and says to themselves "yes, that is absolutely suitable for a screaming, maniacal, frenzying death machine such as the Witch Elves"? Can anyone think of any ability whatsoever which makes that animation an appropriate thing for Witch Elves?

Because I sure as hell can't.


- Xurré

[Kharlene]

Looked like a detaunt to me, because it triggered as she was doing an attack, and the enemy to her right still had her targeted, only the one in front of her (whome she was attacking) was no longer targeting her, which is the only one she hit. So, to me, that's a detaunt. But, I could easily be wrong, because well... it was only like 3 seconds of vid... :roll:

[Zoatibix]

As you say, Xurre, a frenzied charge (particularly if it has to be against the closest opponent) would suit the Witch Elf far, far better than some form of stealth/concealment mechanism.

It would be as inappropriate as a Slayer with Stealth!

I have't played DAoC but I would be intrested to know how close this game is going to be to DAoC: The Sequel with a coating of yummy Warhammer goodness. I accept that there will be similarities (both MMOs from the same company) but are things being squeezed into the DAoC mould a bit more than necessary?

I did think that WE's made the cut because they were the best choice for melee DPS out of the classes on offer, but feels more like Mythic could turn them into Assassins in Bikinis. Then give some of the WE goodies to their beloved and new Disciples.

[Xurré]

It would be as inappropriate as a Slayer with Stealth!
With their mirroring I wish they'd mirrored the Witch Elves against Slayers; those two are in many ways perfect mirrors of each other.


- Xurré

[Ganymed]

On that note, is there anyone who thinks that such an animation, for whatever exactly the ability does, is an appropriate one for Witch Elves? Anyone who sees that animation of them turning transparent and says to themselves "yes, that is absolutely suitable for a screaming, maniacal, frenzying death machine such as the Witch Elves"? Can anyone think of any ability whatsoever which makes that animation an appropriate thing for Witch Elves?

Because I sure as hell can't.


- Xurré

hf then with a class that has no detaunt, and is doomed to die every single pve encounter if it performs what its purpose is: dealing dmg.

noone forces u to use her detaunt (if its a detaunt actually), noone forces u to even wear the slightest piece of armor. storm naked into a group of 10 in your "frenzy", seriously, noone will be able to stop u :P

[Xurré]

hf then with a class that has no detaunt, and is doomed to die every single pve encounter if it performs what its purpose is: dealing dmg.
Who said anything about having no detaunt? What I object to is an animation that makes them turn invisible or partly transparent; and that's far from the only animation they could use for a detaunt. In fact it looks decidedly silly to make someone stop attacking you by turning transparent in front of their eyes; you really think anyone would then stop swinging their sword in the spot you occupied just a moment ago?

And speaking of the need for a detaunt; who says that they need a detaunt to be viable? Who says that they need a detaunt to stay alive? There are, again, dozens of ways and possible abilities that could help keep a class alive in combat. For instance, how about an ability that allows them to dodge the fastest shot or blow; might call that ability "Dance of Doom" perhaps (I'm sure Games Workshop never thought of that one). Or how about n ability that lets your Witch trace a complex pattern in the air that entrances a victim and making less able to attack? Might call that one "Hand of Khaine" perhaps. Or perhaps an ability that allows them to screech one of the seventeen secret names of Khaine and freezing an enemy warrior in horror? Might call that one... how about "Cry of War"?

See? Don't need to resort to silliness like stealth and/or turning character invisible (as an animation for any ability be it detaunt or somethign else); there's already a boatload of potential abilities which are in perfect keeping with the spirit and flavor of the Witch Elves.

That is how you make a game which remains true to an established setting, not by turning one class into another because a third is stealing a lot of what's cool and interesting about the first one.


- Xurré

[Sinfjotle]

You know, I sort of wonder why they didn't just make Witch Elves the melee healer (using enemy blood + potions to heal) and make Assassins the damage dealer. I mean, come on, that's pretty much what they're doing, just using the wrong names.

[Nightsoldier]

If there is a stealth class that is pure stealth "invisible" in open areas I could see alot of people getting upset, as of now almost everyone here voted for no stealth. I personaly wouldnt take it. I voted for no stealth but if you consider stealth as hiding somewhere or being able to then I could accept it. That means that say all MDPS classes can hide in certain types of bushes as an example. Id be fine with this because it wont be pure invisibility. Thats jut an example thought it would have to be more intricate.

I would seriously seriously look at AoC if WAR got stealth. I dont know much about AoC right now but Id do some research on it if total stealth in WAR was publicaly announced that it is either in or planning on being introduced.

[StazI]

Somekind of charge or shadowstep, where you enter in shadows and "teleport" to your victim would be cool. I hope there wount be stealth for this class.

[Lesane]

Witch Elves aren't stealthy as in can't be seen, they WORK by shouting, being loud es(yes they are) they work on the intimidation factor with numbers, sharp weapons and shreeks that will make people shake their knees. Witch Elves are killers but most of all they aren't cowards hiding in stealth. They slaughter in the name of Khaine!

[Veriag]

I'd just like to clarify my OP above that I am firmly against stealth in any form for Witch Elves. It is totally opposite to their make up, character and background lore and as Xurre has very rightly pointed out, there are a large number of options that are already in the Warhammer Dark Elf lore ( Warhammer: Dark Elves army book) under special abilities for the Temple of Khaine that could be so easily and much more fittingly developed for the WE in WAR. I just find it difficult to beleive that any dev's have either Not read the Dark Elf army book or chosen to completely overlook these really cool abilities for something as lazy, unimaginative and totally unfitting as any form of stealth.

So I remain ever optimistic :grin:

[Dyst]

Why can't the developers be creative when it comes to implementation of some sort of mechanic resembling stealth? Just out of the top of my head I have an ability that sorta functions a little bit like stealth, (in a way that it can give the user an upper hand in battle,) but it isn't a cowards move. It could also be a Shadow Warrior ability.

Exploit the Surroundings, Frenzied Movement, something like that
When used, it would make the Witch Elf sort of blurred out, but not entirely. The name would disappear while active. The Witch Elf could still be targeted, but anyone originally targeting her would loose their target. While active, the Witch Elf moves for 150% of her original movement speed. The ability lasts up to 30 seconds, with a 3-5 minute cooldown. The ability cancels when the Witch Elf attacks or is attacked. Can not be activated in combat (can not be used as a runaway tactic).

[Veriag]

The I hope Dev's are being creative and producing some exciting mechanics for all the class abilities based on their background and warhammer lore. What you have described Dsyt is a nice mechanic but I would again say why does it have to be stealth like and the WE fade out? Why not just have the frenzied attack movement provide a % increase to the characters evasion / dodge chance to mirror the fact that they are harder to target and hit during this insane burst of speed and agility?

The general consensus from this tread, I feel is the whole question of Why give the witch Elf Stealth like abilities when they just don't fit the character, lore or IP and such excellent options for the basis of WE abilities are already there in the Dark Elves Army Book?

[Swoog]

WE + stealth = paradox

So if EA mythics want to strive against the universe and maybe destroying it in the process just to give WE stealth go ahead :P

stealth is just not fit for the game as it is now and i hope it will never be because in the game which name we do not mention 50% of all classes on most servers had their main as a stealther running around ambushing us regular classes :P

PARADOX I TELL YOU! :P

[Minen]

If there is a stealth class that is pure stealth "invisible" in open areas I could see alot of people getting upset, as of now almost everyone here voted for no stealth. I personaly wouldnt take it. I voted for no stealth but if you consider stealth as hiding somewhere or being able to then I could accept it. That means that say all MDPS classes can hide in certain types of bushes as an example. Id be fine with this because it wont be pure invisibility. Thats jut an example thought it would have to be more intricate.

I would seriously seriously look at AoC if WAR got stealth. I dont know much about AoC right now but Id do some research on it if total stealth in WAR was publicaly announced that it is either in or planning on being introduced.lol AoC has stealth, so why go to that game?

[Rik Riorik]

Stealth doesn't really make sense for the Witch Elves no. If one wants to get them into close combat easier then I'd say a more agility based solution would fit ten miles better, if its for differentiation reasons then, well since I don't know how the other melee dps characters work I can't really say.

However one should try and reevaluate one's concept of stealth. Because it might not at all be the kind of stealth you're used to. It might be on a cooldown, it might not be something you can do for very long, it might impair your other abilities.

However even with all that in consideration I still don't think stealth as such is a Witch Elf thing. One might get creative and label it something like blurring speed, but in essence that seems like a cop out if, well you know, the Witch Elf isn't moving any faster than before.

[Zunjin]

Different kind of stealth or new mechanics, Witch elves doesnt need stealth to make them a viable light armoured warrior and still interesting. While noone just recently have claimed otherwise to previous stated sentance , I very much believe that to make this class perfect in everyway does not include giving it stealth. Giving it stealts would in infact limits its possibilites, as giving such a unique gimmick ( in comparison to the other classes ) would limit other possible cool aspects as unatural speed, unmatched evasion, and killing possibilties beyond any of the other classes :)

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

For me, giving Witch Elves stealth will take away a lot of the fear they should be generating in their opponents. It's far scarier (therefore more fun) to have a screaming psycho running at you, knowing you have to kill her somehow before she gets to you or you're dead, than to have her suddenly pop-up and backstab you. And that jump out of melee from a vid a while back - they should turn that around. I don't see a WE fleeing from combat. So they should absolutely not have stealth, in any way, shape or form. Ever.

[Dukha]

Just for fun i'll think up my suggestions on how to solve the issue with melee DPS getting within range, lets say 2 choices per destruction career.

Choppa:
Berserker Rush - The Choppa runs at high speed at his target. Only useable out of combat.

Using me head! - The Choppa rushes his target, knocking him or her down for 1 second. Shorter range than berserker Rush but useable in combat.

Marauder:
Guile of the Raider - The Marauder uses the terrain to become near invisible for a short time while at the same time increasing his movement rate. Last 15 seconds and is only useable out of combat.

Tentacle grab: The Marauder sprouts tentacles that traps his target for a short period of time. Useable in combat (and yeah, I didn't think it up, it's borrowed).

Witch Elf:
Leap of the faithful - The Witch Elf leaps high into the air, quickly closing the gap between her and the frontline. Not useable in combat.

Frenzied Movement - The Wicth Elf calls upon Khaine, thus entering a temporary mediative state allowing her an increased rate of movement. Useable in combat.

Some tinkering with cooldowns and durations would be nedeed to m ake sure that they are not overpowered and that they match up within the faction. oh and probably some better names hehe :mrgreen:

[Ceranys]

Stealth would be nice for trapping lonely wanderers in the world. But from what i hear WaR is a designed to play with a group so we don't need stealth. just stay a while in the back and when they are getting reckless we slash them in to tiny pieces.

a alternive way what sounds more fun would be.

A witch elf sprinting at his foe and seeing the fear of theyre target when approaching them. I already hear the High elves screaming in theyre headphones "witch elf 8 'o clock". Atleast for how long it will last!:twisted:

[StazI]

OMG now I am really nervous about WE development.... http://war.curse.com/videos/details/743/ about 20.40

Witch elves are the career that sneaks behind people, quickly attack and run away, they actually use word backstabs and quickly run away... Havent mythic red any warhammer lore or have they just tried to copy WoW classes? /cry it's gonna be freaking rogue? WEs are anything but sneaky rogues for F sake. Why did they make WE if it is not gonna be like WE? I hope they rename the career as assasin or make it like actual WE.

Also, that backjump thingy drops your aggro.. said in video

[Kenyan]

They did mention that the class had positional attacks, but I did not get the same impression that they were considering giving the class stealth from that clip.
The attack they showed that you needed to be out of combat to use is similar to the openers from any of various games, but I get the impression they intend it to be a WEs opening attack on an unaware enemy who may be engaged in combat with your allies, not an attack you are guaranteed to attempt in every fight.

/votes No for WE stealth (or any archetype for that matter).
/votes for player creativity while hiding among terrain and in game objects to establish ambushes, and the opposing sides awareness of their surroundings to counter said ambush.

[Xurré]

OMG now I am really nervous about WE development.... http://war.curse.com/videos/details/743/ about 20.40
I tihnk you mean "about 20.40 remaining". Or "about 10.30 in". The number on the right is time remaining, the number on the left is time played. ;)

And yeah, that's been known for a while. Though it's nice to see how sometimes you hear dev comments with rose-colored glasses; when I first heard that I truly believed that they just meant positional attacks and not sneaking about.


- Xurré

[Dr.Nelson]

I find it funny how EAMythic still comment on various dead horses such as cross realm communication, not having "official" forums, and maybe one or two others I havn't been here long, yet they won't comment on stealth. They obviously frequent these forums, they obviously notice some people are worried about stealth. They may have said no in the past but they said no to official forums in the past and still continue to do so.

The way I interpret (spelling?) this is they are atleast considering it and testing it. It may destroy Witch Elfs of lore wise but if I were you I would brace myself for a potential major let down.

EDIT: PS I'm lazy and didn't read most of this thread (although I did make it to about post #50, before I got annoyed and couldn't read further) so my observations may have been discussed by now.

[Xurré]

The way I interpret (spelling?) this is they are atleast considering it and testing it.
The question is, how can they even consider stealth for Witch Elves? Of all the classes, all 24 of them, Witch Elves are the least suitable for stealth. Even Orc Choppas (though definitely least likely after Witch Elves) are slightly more suitable. Savage though a beast may be it still tends to stalk and prowl to hunt down its prey.

But Witch Elves take pride in being screaming, lunatic maniacs. Their whole in-your-face style can be said to be part of some psychological warfare they're employing. Just seeing a crazed Maibd storm at you while flaying about two poison-covered blades should be enough to make even the staunchest warrior uncertain and falter in their combat.

If they're even considering it then that tells me that they don't have a clue about the dark elves and Witch Elves in particular. It tells me that they're not really interested in making a Warhammer game and are just using the name to try and attract more buyers (and they'll probably succeed too). It tells me that they really just want to make Assassins, but made them Witch Elves because those look sexy. And it makes me seriously worried about what else they've screwed up.

Does it matter at all how the stealth would work? No. Stealth for Witch Elves is wrong, no matter what form it takes. There is no need to test it because there is no way to make it work for the class. Sure, it might functionally work (I'm not convinced of that in the least, it's been quite often that developers promise that something which hasn't ever really worked well will work in their game... only to be proved wrong), but that's completely besides the point. Witch Elves shouldn't even be up for consideration of having stealth of any kind, because that's simply not what they are. Might as well make intelligent orcs, forgiving dwarfs or good dark elves as that makes about as much sense.

If Witch Elves do get stealth it makes me seriously wonder what on earth EA Mythic and the beta testers are doing. Aren't they testing for lore? Doesn't EA Mythic ask its beta testers to give feedback on the lore? After all, they're testing everything else and the lore is no less important (if it is then this isn't the game they promised it to be).

Seriously. Any developer who'd even suggest stealth for them should receive a stiff talking-to (that they should get involved with the setting of the game they're creating before making such ridiculous suggestions), and be fired on the spot if they're responsible in any way for maintaining the lore of the Warhammer universe.


- Xurré

[Arcantir]

I reckon they will get stealth tbh, however i reckon it will be limited in some way, the devs seem to show a dislike forjust being able to be practicly invunerable until you strike so it would make sens,

[Misanthrope Prime]

*edited for content*

[Hoodwink]

The question is, how can they even consider stealth for Witch Elves?

Probably the first and last step in that process would be to completely disregard Witch Elf lore.

Ugh...

[Nightsoldier]

*edited for quoting now edited content*

[Misanthrope Prime]

*edited for content*

[Dr.Nelson]

*edited for content*

[Despero]

They should not, although it is less a matter of lore for me-- I care little for the specifics of lore as long as it helps provide an interesting WAR experience-- than it is an aversion to all forms of stealth. I would like all classes to be viable group mates in PvE and RvR without having to balance daily the stigma of a class's lack of utility or impact with how badly an additional group member is needed.

[Kenyan]

I tihnk you mean "about 20.40 remaining". Or "about 10.30 in". The number on the right is time remaining, the number on the left is time played. ;)

And yeah, that's been known for a while. Though it's nice to see how sometimes you hear dev comments with rose-colored glasses; when I first heard that I truly believed that they just meant positional attacks and not sneaking about.


- Xurré

I feel the same way. I really really want to believe he just was not clear enough and actually meant some kind of flanking while the target was otherwise engaged with an ally, or somehow using terrain to sneak.

Really. If the WE can do the 'crazy leap away' thing, I could see them having some kind of 'crazy leap in' along the same vein to close distance and potentially try to take initiative to get an opener, as long as it was given a balanced cooldown of some sort.

/shrug. No clue how the WE and other light armor/mitigation classes are going to be handled atm sadly...but I am dying to see an update on them in a newsletter, Grab Bag, or game convention interview where we are given solid information from developers or see some convention attendee game footage by someone who ACTUALLY knows how to play a positional attack using melee dps class. The limited number of clips on WE and WH so far have me wanting to go listen to sad music and write emo poetry in the cemetery because I am worried that the archetypes that appeal to me the most may end up just getting slaughtered with their incredibly low armor, and no mention of slight to moderate mitigation to make up for it.. :grin:

[Demerit]

We all know the WE and WH play like semi-rogue characters and traditionally, these characters have little to no defenses. Not having any kind of stealth = fodder to tanks (especially in WAR since MDPS are tanks prime target) and fodder to RDPS; all other MDPS probably have better armor.

I'm not heavy on lore (only have some of the armybooks) but I know that WE are frenzied, bloodthirsty maniacs who lunge themselves into battles and the stealth, wait and hide, mechanic would not sit right with me either. However, playing the WE lore-wise and dying all the time would sit even worse.

I liked the speed idea mentioned on the first page. Could spice it up a little. Instead of straight stealth, I think a fluctuating fade mechanic would be better.

"Elixir of Khaine" (or whatever) - WE imbibes a blood laced elixir sending her into a frenzy allowing her to move at speeds undetectable by the naked eye. The elixir boils the blood of the WE and every so often, the WE will slow down to savor the pain becoming momentarily visible before resuming her bloodthirsty rampage.

(WH - "Die Heretic" - Infuriated that those who have been tainted by Chaos still roam about, the WH is consumed by zealous rage to purge. His superhuman speed is tempered by human limitations and momentarily appears visible during his crusade to cleanse the world of all things Chaos.)

The WE becomes invisible and those moments of visibility occur at intervals of 3-5s and will appear not completely visible but not invisible (think WoW priest fade) and lasts for .5-1s. On a timer of course, cooldown, normal run speed (maybe slight increase), maybe some other negative. Adjust as necessary.

This allows the WE to get close in large scale RvR because there is so much going on but doesn't really help all that much in 1v1. And I still think this is balanced; the WE already has openers on her movelist which would have been in regardless and as long as the fight is not over after that, I don't see too much of a problem. Lore is not completely broken with this either. Just a thought.

[Kenyan]

I dunno about WH having superhuman speed.
Sticking with their fanatic stereotype they could possible have AP costing self-buffs to defenses like parry, evasion and maybe toughness with something like a 15-20 second duration though...taking the form of prayers to stick to their lore.

Since so little has been released on how their combat style mechanics function, so I am not sure if it would be too complicated to change from or include in whatever system they have now, but perhaps their version of Grudge, Frenzy, etc. could be called 'Fanaticism'. With more 'Fanaticism', their self-buffs would possibly increase their faith-based protection?

CLARIFICATION: The extra durability would be put in to offset the assumed weakness of the class as far as actually taking damage as a melee archetype with no healing, ranged damage output, or tanking strengths to compensate for the weakness. The way classes are shaping up just being dps with incredibly light armor and defenses, classes like WH and WE will take some serious beatings, and would theoretically need a little oomph in the mitigation department somewhere. This assumes their dmg output is not so amazing that it isn't needed, which I doubt as battles have been advertised as being drawn out, even at the 1v1 level.


If adding in short prayer buffs would be too over the top and hard to balance, or hurt the dmg output of the archetype to a large extent, I dunno.....maybe just give them some kind of Protection prayers worth a damn to not make them glass jaw lightweights without making them tank-like in durability and avoidance.

beta beta beta....I guess this is what it's for?

[Demerit]

I think it's safe to assume that the WH and WE will have shared mechanics (rogue-like = combo points + finisher). If the WE gets stealth in any form, you can be sure that the WH will get it too; the speed thing is just a somewhat convenient excuse (and a lot better than just popping invisibility in an open field).

I think the main thing is that stealth not be traditional in any form. I don't think you should be able to move from point A to point B completely undetected. That's why I'd be in favor of fluctuations. If you so choose to focus on them, you can still use evasive maneuvers because you can somewhat keep track of them and it won't last forever. But in the heat of a large battle, that won't always happen and the WH/WE can get in the surprise attack.

[Kenyan]

I think it's safe to assume that the WH and WE will have shared mechanics (rogue-like = combo points + finisher). If the WE gets stealth in any form, you can be sure that the WH will get it too; the speed thing is just a somewhat convenient excuse (and a lot better than just popping invisibility in an open field).

I think the main thing is that stealth not be traditional in any form. I don't think you should be able to move from point A to point B completely undetected. That's why I'd be in favor of fluctuations. If you so choose to focus on them, you can still use evasive maneuvers because you can somewhat keep track of them and it won't last forever. But in the heat of a large battle, that won't always happen and the WH/WE can get in the surprise attack.


I agree, I think our mechanics are going to be really close however things end up. But, I honestly don't think they have to be that way. Honestly, it is almost lazy in a sense to take that approach to our classes. Other archetypes having slightly differing mechanics across army faction boundaries, and the Marauder will seemingly share the 'stance' flavor of mechanic with a ranged dps class from Order.

Lorewise, sneaking and hiding clearly does not fit for the WE, and it doesn't seem too WH-like to me personally. There are better options, if Mythic is willing to consider them at this stage of the game, so to speak.

Also, the pitch that WAR would not have an assassin type class is something a LOT of the pre-release playerbase seems to agree upon going from polls and reader response here at least. Again, it just seems like the easy 'out', when there have already been better suggestions that are both more thematic lore-wise as well as adhering to the 'no Stealth in WAR' statement.

Also, the fluctuations seem a little too 'anime' for the WH, imo. ;)

[Demerit]

Lol...like an afterimage type deal huh? I got the image of a WoW NE spamming Shadowmeld (if you could move) while writing it. Well I didn't suggest the speed thing; I just liked the idea but just saying speed = stealth doesn't really change anything so I thought it needed something. They probably would have been better off not announcing the MDPS for the Elves so when this problem arose they could have just put in Assassins.

I would think stealth falls under core mechanics though. The WE has elixirs and poisons while the WH uses a gun and rapier; I think just because the core is the same doesn't mean they are being completely lazy; it'll be hard to balance stealth for one side while the other side gets nothing.

I would feel buffs are more toward the lazy side and wouldn't help all that much. The WE/WH still wouldn't be able to pull of their opening positional attacks effectively. And increasing the physical/magical defense of a DPS class would lead to other problems as you stated already so what are the other options?

EDIT: I'm sure the team would want to avoid including stealth; but you can't hold them to what they say before everything pans out. Things change and push comes to shove, they might play around with stealth and if it works, then they'll put it in.

[Xurré]

We all know the WE and WH play like semi-rogue characters and traditionally, these characters have little to no defenses. Not having any kind of stealth = fodder to tanks (especially in WAR since MDPS are tanks prime target) and fodder to RDPS; all other MDPS probably have better armor.
It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if their armor is similar to that of the Marauder and the White Lion, but it’s unlikely that those get any kind of stealth (even though stealth would make a lot more sense for both of these classes than it does for Witch Elves); does that make them fodder to rdps?

Remember, there are four other melee damage classes.

If they feel they absolutely have to put stealth in then I really don’t care where they put it… as long as it’s not for the Witch Elves.

I'm not heavy on lore (only have some of the armybooks) but I know that WE are frenzied, bloodthirsty maniacs who lunge themselves into battles and the stealth, wait and hide, mechanic would not sit right with me either. However, playing the WE lore-wise and dying all the time would sit even worse.
Who says that they’d have to die all the time? Simply because they’re an unarmored (low-armored) melee class without stealth doesn’t mean that they’re porcelain dolls. Other games have managed just fine.

For instance, one could make them able to dodge projectile (i.e. ranged) attacks (maybe even only while they’re not in melee combat) so that they’re very hard to hit with ranged attacks. Or if that’s too powerful give them a toggle-able ability that gives them such protection, but the ability drains AP while using it. Then there’s abilities to make them able to quickly close into melee distance, like charge abilities, the “leap into combat” idea discussed before or just general higher movement speed and they’ll be absolutely deadly to ranged damage classes (and still have to fear tanks).

There’ve also been discussions of abilities that allow them to quickly change position relative to their target. Like press a key and your character quickly circles behind your target or such. What I’d like to see is that the way of Witch Elves fighting is almost like a dance of death, constantly moving around their target to find the best openings and positions. Give tanks the ability to ‘shield’ certain sides from positional attacks and you’ve got your RPS-trifecta complete. And you can play with that by allowing players to increase/decrease emphasis on certain parts of their class through masteries.

I seriously don’t see why they’d need stealth so badly that they have to break the flavor of the class so appallingly.



I think it's safe to assume that the WH and WE will have shared mechanics (rogue-like = combo points + finisher).
I still don’t see why there needs to be such mirroring to begin with. It smacks of lazy design to me (we’ll just make the two sides pretty much the same, except we’ll change the graphics and the names). Originally EA Mythic promised 24 unique classes where, unlike every other MMO, when playing a second class you wouldn’t feel like you’re really playing the first one again.

Now, if they lack the ability to do that then that’s fine, but that still doesn’t excuse the inclusion of stealth for Witch Elves. If anything because Witch Elves shouldn’t get stealth, Withhunters shouldn’t get it either (and not “because Withhunters get stealth we’ll have to give it to Witch Elves too”).

Heck, this seems like a perfect opportunity to return to the original statement; instead of giving stealth to Witch Elves give it to Marauders or Orc Choppas. Then both sides have stealth, but the two classes who get it aren’t mirrors of each other. If they’re tossing the sensibility of the lore out the window anyway then there’s no reason not to give it to any of those.



They probably would have been better off not announcing the MDPS for the Elves so when this problem arose they could have just put in Assassins.
Agreed; I’d rather they drop Witch Elves altogether now and just put in Assassins than see Witch Elves implemented as sneaky rogues. If you can’t do justice to a class then don’t implement it.

EDIT: I'm sure the team would want to avoid including stealth; but you can't hold them to what they say before everything pans out.
Yes you can. Otherwise they shouldn’t have said anything to begin with. EA Mythic isn’t new to the game development scene so they should’ve known: don’t say anything until you’re absolutely sure. This is because what you’re saying is the only thing people know about your game, they can’t assume that people can read their minds and automatically understand everything. And since it’s the only thing people know people will base a lot of their decisions on it. I’m willing to bet that a large part of people are here in part because of the promise of no stealth in WAR.

The only exception to the rule is if, when you say it, you make absolutely clear that it’s not a certain thing and something that can change or something they’d like to do. And that’s generally only useful when you’re inviting direct discussion in the community on the topic or trying to give a general feel of the direction you’re taking.

But yes, you can most definitely hold them to what they’re saying. Otherwise they might as well come out and say that stealth is in the game (for example) whether it’s going to be or not.

Things change and push comes to shove, they might play around with stealth and if it works, then they'll put it in.
Again, I don’t care if stealth technically works or not. It doesn’t work for the flavor of the class and you don’t need to play around with anything to see that. Nothing is going to change that fact. If they want to play around with stealth so badly then let them mess up some other class with it (and yes I know that’s very selfish, but I’m sick and tired of being at the butt end of their ‘jokes’).


- Xurré

[Nasty]

And as a point specific to Witch Elves, one possible way to do it is to link it to speed. Moving extremely quickly can give the illusion of invisibility, temporarily. And Witch Elves are known for their blazing speed when in full grip of their blood fury.

Yes! I would like to see a tempory stealth linked to speed. I just think without it the class could be a poor man's Choppa, Hammerer or Witch Hunter. Whatever happend I hope the Witch Elf gets some unique traight/mechanic that will make them significantly different from other melee DPS classes.

[Demerit]

It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if their armor is similar to that of the Marauder and the White Lion, but it’s unlikely that those get any kind of stealth (even though stealth would make a lot more sense for both of these classes than it does for Witch Elves); does that make them fodder to rdps?

Maybe. Or maybe, like RDPS, MDPS are not equal in terms of damage and armor. We know that Shadow Warriors won't be able to put out equal amounts of DPS as Bright Wizards but they make it up in terms of flexibility and survivability; maybe this applies to the MDPS as well.

Remember, there are four other melee damage classes.

If they feel they absolutely have to put stealth in then I really don’t care where they put it… as long as it’s not for the Witch Elves.

I haven't forgotten. And I'm right there with you. I'd rather not see Witch Elves get stealth either but there's a clever quote around here (and it might have already been said in this thread) that said this is Warhammer: Age of Reckoning not Lorehammer: Age of Tabletop (apologize for not knowing who to credit this).

Who says that they’d have to die all the time? Simply because they’re an unarmored (low-armored) melee class without stealth doesn’t mean that they’re porcelain dolls. Other games have managed just fine.

I didn't mean it quite that way. It was an over-simplification to save space. I meant that it seems they may have, in general, a harder time performing to max efficiency and for a low armored DPS class, that does equal dying more often than not.

I guess the crux of that belief is that their DPS factors from openers, combos, and finishers. It seems as though without some form of going undetected, openers (can't be in combat) would be generally harder to pull off. If you're seen all the time, you'll have tanks gunning for you to decrease your damage by half against lowered armored targets and RDPS will probably lay enough into before you could really build up combo points to counterattack. For balance's sake, this should happen half of the time and the other half, I feel the WE/WH should be able to get the drop; it just doesn't seem that it will play into their favor half of the time without some form of stealth. For clarity's sake, I don't mean to imply that the battle should be decided by who gets the drop first. With abilities that get you into range and out of range plus teammates and support, all this greatly alters the battle's outcome.

For instance, one could make them able to dodge projectile (i.e. ranged) attacks (maybe even only while they’re not in melee combat) so that they’re very hard to hit with ranged attacks. Or if that’s too powerful give them a toggle-able ability that gives them such protection, but the ability drains AP while using it. Then there’s abilities to make them able to quickly close into melee distance, like charge abilities, the “leap into combat” idea discussed before or just general higher movement speed and they’ll be absolutely deadly to ranged damage classes (and still have to fear tanks).

There’ve also been discussions of abilities that allow them to quickly change position relative to their target. Like press a key and your character quickly circles behind your target or such. What I’d like to see is that the way of Witch Elves fighting is almost like a dance of death, constantly moving around their target to find the best openings and positions. Give tanks the ability to ‘shield’ certain sides from positional attacks and you’ve got your RPS-trifecta complete. And you can play with that by allowing players to increase/decrease emphasis on certain parts of their class through masteries.

The WE probably already has abilities to close the gap and you can circle strafe all you want for the dance of death but I think the true purpose of stealth is for openers which do make up the WE's DPS; naturally this is all speculation. A number of those suggestions are purposefully altering the favor of the battle towards the WE even after early detection and that leads to problems. And one of those are revamps to the combat system which would also need to be tailored to the other classes just because of 2/24 classes.

Abilities that seem good on a paper can lead to game breaking exploitations in game and some abilities that were at once unattractive may be the best solution; this is why you shouldn't hold them accountable. On top of that, no game under production leaves out the mantra "things are subject to change." They tell us things because we want to know; it seems in your view, they shouldn't tell us anything until the game is actually released (I know you said until they are sure but like I said things on paper might not work out in game blah blah...).

I seriously don’t see why they’d need stealth so badly that they have to break the flavor of the class so appallingly.

Can't give a satisfying answer to that. Heck, they could exchange mechanics with the Choppas or something so the WE could have Frenzy but oh noes...people would just say for the Choppa, stealth doesn't feel right. Heck, let's just scrap this mechanic altogether and give all MDPS stance or berserk systems...oh noes my class on my faction isn't unique anymore. Not everyone is going to be pleased; that's just how it goes.

I still don’t see why there needs to be such mirroring to begin with. It smacks of lazy design to me (we’ll just make the two sides pretty much the same, except we’ll change the graphics and the names). Originally EA Mythic promised 24 unique classes where, unlike every other MMO, when playing a second class you wouldn’t feel like you’re really playing the first one again.

I am actually surprised that people have such an issue with this. To me, it's a great way to ensure balance and not force a player to choose between factions based on a mechanic. In another post I likened the shared mechanics as an engine in a car but the characters overall as the different frames and bodies. The engine is what makes them go but I don't believe for a second that in game, you'll be paying too much attention to what's under the hood. The WE has poisons and elixirs while the WH has a gun and a rapier; although these two will still use the same mechanic, they will in essence still have unique features. Just because they both use combo points doesn't mean they have to build them in the exact same way just like cars with the same engines can look and feel different.

Now, if they lack the ability to do that then that’s fine, but that still doesn’t excuse the inclusion of stealth for Witch Elves. If anything because Witch Elves shouldn’t get stealth, Withhunters shouldn’t get it either (and not “because Withhunters get stealth we’ll have to give it to Witch Elves too”).

I already mentioned that, game-wise (to the best of my knowledge) you'll have to mention them in tandem. It's not because one needs it the other needs it too. They both will have the same problem (if it's a core problem such as not effectively pulling off openers) and thus both will need it.

Heck, this seems like a perfect opportunity to return to the original statement; instead of giving stealth to Witch Elves give it to Marauders or Orc Choppas. Then both sides have stealth, but the two classes who get it aren’t mirrors of each other. If they’re tossing the sensibility of the lore out the window anyway then there’s no reason not to give it to any of those.

Once again it's a core problem (things that pertain to the metaphorical engine) which would be shared. Giving an upgrade to an engine that doesn't need it will lead to balancing problems. And I don't think lore will completely die because one class gets something that doesn't mesh well with the lore.

Yes you can. Otherwise they shouldn’t have said anything to begin with. EA Mythic isn’t new to the game development scene so they should’ve known: don’t say anything until you’re absolutely sure. This is because what you’re saying is the only thing people know about your game, they can’t assume that people can read their minds and automatically understand everything. And since it’s the only thing people know people will base a lot of their decisions on it. I’m willing to bet that a large part of people are here in part because of the promise of no stealth in WAR.

The only exception to the rule is if, when you say it, you make absolutely clear that it’s not a certain thing and something that can change or something they’d like to do. And that’s generally only useful when you’re inviting direct discussion in the community on the topic or trying to give a general feel of the direction you’re taking.

But yes, you can most definitely hold them to what they’re saying. Otherwise they might as well come out and say that stealth is in the game (for example) whether it’s going to be or not.

Think I already touched on this. But I doubt any game that wants to market itself will say things indecisively. And I can't say whether or not "that a large part of people are here in part because of the promise of no stealth in WAR." I know I'm here because I want a fun, balanced game where it doesn't feel as though I'm wasting time doing PvP because it was tacked on later and something that could hold my attention end game; I guess I'm in the minority.

One reason they might not come out and say it is because this far along in beta, they can now put features in and test it before saying anything semi-official about it (Mbj's remark about crafting highlights this well).

Again, I don’t care if stealth technically works or not. It doesn’t work for the flavor of the class and you don’t need to play around with anything to see that. Nothing is going to change that fact. If they want to play around with stealth so badly then let them mess up some other class with it (and yes I know that’s very selfish, but I’m sick and tired of being at the butt end of their ‘jokes’).

Just for clarification. I rather not see stealth in either. I want them to test it out and from that find other creative alternative means of accomplishing a said goal. I actually do think that stealth (linked to speed) with bouts of visibility is somewhat better. Kenyan thought it's too animish (guess he was thinking Dragon Ball Z) but 1) it makes the move only useful on the offensive 2) it's not really a wait and hide stealth (which is obviously the distaste) but more of a slip-by stealth which might be what they need.

[Sinfjotle]

I haven't forgotten. And I'm right there with you. I'd rather not see Witch Elves get stealth either but there's a clever quote around here (and it might have already been said in this thread) that said this is Warhammer: Age of Reckoning not Lorehammer: Age of Tabletop (apologize for not knowing who to credit this).


This is America, not Constitution Land!

I just really hate that quote for the extreme stupidity of it. If this is indeed not truly a Warhammer game, why even bother paying for the rights to the setting? If you want to make original things, by all means make something original. Not take something popular as a thin coat of paint.

[Zunjin]

I haven't forgotten. And I'm right there with you. I'd rather not see Witch Elves get stealth either but there's a clever quote around here (and it might have already been said in this thread) that said this is Warhammer: Age of Reckoning not Lorehammer: Age of Tabletop (apologize for not knowing who to credit this).


Same here as above postar. That quote is just a lazy excuse for changing around the setting without any consequenses.
Try this for a instance: What about no stealth at all? Would that make the witch elf class less desirable and playable?

[Nagahyde316]

Witch Elves are an insane, bloodthirsty, frenzying class who runs into battle head-first without any concern for their own safety (entrusting themselves completely to their god). They are death incarnate, bringers of unending slaughter, walking blenders. They are loud and flashy, attracting attention to themselves. When a Witch Elf is around then you know it. They get their kills by continually hacking in on their victims, by using their superior skill and agility. And they are most certainly not Assassins in Bikinis.

I can’t see anything anywhere in their current background that could even hint at them getting this ability somehow.


This...This right here is all the reasons for no stealth in Witch Elves. I want my enemies to see me coming to kill them.

[Xurré]

Maybe. Or maybe, like RDPS, MDPS are not equal in terms of damage and armor. We know that Shadow Warriors won't be able to put out equal amounts of DPS as Bright Wizards but they make it up in terms of flexibility and survivability; maybe this applies to the MDPS as well.
And? How does that validate Witch Elves possibly getting stealth? If they get stealth because they’re not survivable enough without it then the problem lies in them not being survivable without it, not in them lacking stealth.

Don’t use the adding of an ability as the reason for adding the ability.

Warhammer: Age of Reckoning not Lorehammer: Age of Tabletop (apologize for not knowing who to credit this).
Don’t forget the “Warhammer” in “Warhammer: Age of Reckoning”. If the setting, the lore, the flavour, etc wasn’t important then it would’ve just been “Age of Reckoning”. This is Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, not Rulehammer, Age of PvP.

Besides, I never said anything about tabletop.

I didn't mean it quite that way. It was an over-simplification to save space. I meant that it seems they may have, in general, a harder time performing to max efficiency and for a low armored DPS class, that does equal dying more often than not.
Armor and stealth are far from the only ways to increase survivability of a class.

I guess the crux of that belief is that their DPS factors from openers, combos, and finishers. It seems as though without some form of going undetected, openers (can't be in combat) would be generally harder to pull off.
It sounds to me that the problem is with how openers function for the class. If they have openers that require them to take enemies by surprise to be able to use them then they have openers that don’t fit the class.

Instead of openers that require you to be out of combat to use them, how about openers that you can only use within the first second or so of combat so that you don’t need to get that first strike in to be able to use it. To make it more interesting, what if you can also only use them if the enemy hasn’t done a lot of damage to you yet (so that they can prevent you from using an opener by opening with a strong attack themselves, thus breaking through your frenzy and disallowing you from building it with a running start).

I’m also not altogether convinced that the whole combo point building is really a good mechanic for Witch Elves. It sounds way too… controlled. Instead I’d rather stack up heavily on positional attacks that encourage me to dance wildly around a target in an attempt to get positional attacks from all different sides in. I’d rather see abilities that make the Witch Elf do unexpected things that others would then have to respond to on-the-fly. This whole build-build-build-release-build-build-build-release was incredibly boring in Diablo 2 as well (haven’t played it in WoW).

Maybe a solution to that would be if you can, A, get negative frenzy points which cause penelties to your character across the board until you erase the penalty (but at least you can get your ‘finishers’ in). B, allow you to build up more frenzy points than you can spend with finishers (if the limit is, say, 5 frenzy points then allow Witches to build up 30 points or such) so they can follow up with a few finishers in a row. C, allow Witches to use their finishers at something other than full strength. So if you have, say, five frenzy points then you can use one finisher for two points and then another for three (though in this scheme I’d probably only have one, two and three points as levels for finishers). D, have different builders build different amounts of points; in this I’d probably set the max to 100 points and have the basic attack build 5 points, but some builders build more points (doing less damage but building more frenzy) and others build less points (sacrificing building power for quicker damage). Combine these things and suddenly you have something which still uses builders and finishers, but is radically different and far more flexible, varied (and thus hopefully fun) than just going the Diablo 2/WoW route with it.

Of course, if I’d make a Witch Elf class I’d probably not use builders and finishers like that to begin with.

On top of that, no game under production leaves out the mantra "things are subject to change."
That’s fair enough. But including stealth would feel like they’re not even trying to hold true to what they said before and make a game without stealth. It would feel like they’d put stealth in because someone, somewhere thinks the game needs stealth and not because it’s the absolute last resort to get the game balance working.

Have they looked at all the other possible solutions yet? Have they, for instance, looked at the charge ability in Hellgate London and said to themselves “let’s try this first before we’re going the route of introducing a gameplay mechanic we said we wouldn’t introduce”? Have they tried out, ingame, the leap into combat ability yet? Have they tried yet any of the dozens of other suggestions mentioned (including the blinky speed thing you mentioned, though I’m not too fond of that myself since I don’t like Witches disappearing from view under any circumstances)?

Are they even considering that it simply, absolutely does not fit this class?

Can't give a satisfying answer to that. Heck, they could exchange mechanics with the Choppas or something so the WE could have Frenzy but oh noes...people would just say for the Choppa, stealth doesn't feel right. Heck, let's just scrap this mechanic altogether and give all MDPS stance or berserk systems...oh noes my class on my faction isn't unique anymore. Not everyone is going to be pleased; that's just how it goes.
Maybe it’s selfish, but why am I the one, again, who’s got to be the one not pleased? It seems that at every turn they’re doing everything they can to screw over the Witch Elves (and to a lesser degree the dark elves in general). First we get the ridiculous Disciples usurping much of what makes Witch Elves cool to begin with, then we get Witch Elves playing like rogues instead of playing like berserker furies of slaughter, and now they might get stealth too?

If they wanted to have a rogue class on Destruction to mirror the rogue class on Order then they should’ve just implemented Assassins and left Witch Elves out of their befouling of the setting. That way there wouldn’t have been any arguments on this front; everything discussed for the Witch Elves’ play style as well as stealth would fit Assassins absolutely perfectly. But they didn’t do that, they chose to implement Witch Elves. So they should implement Witch Elves and not Assassins in bikinis.

There is no class at all in WAR currently (with the possibly exception of Shadow Warriors who, ironically, probably won’t get stealth if they include stealth) for which stealth makes any sense. So stealth shouldn’t be in there to begin with. And they fit Witch Elves least of all. So if they include stealth then they make the least people unhappy by including it for something else (of the Destruction DPS classes it has least problems with Marauders and on Order I can equally see it working for White Lions too). But instead it seems like they might, again, choose the absolute worse solution instead of one which upsets the least number of people.

In another post I likened the shared mechanics as an engine in a car but the characters overall as the different frames and bodies.
Now I’m not one to claim I know much about cars. But as I understand it the sound and performance of the engine is actually a huge factor in how a car feels. People see through just applying a thin coat of paint to something and calling it different.

And I don't think lore will completely die because one class gets something that doesn't mesh well with the lore.
It’s not just that they get something that doesn’t mesh well, it’s that they’d get something that utterly and completely alters the flavour of the class to the point where it’s really another class. I can understand that they get a couple of isolated abilities which might not fit their lore very well (for instance I still think every class will get some self-heal ability, which is difficult to justify for Witch Elves but can be acceptable for the sake of balance), but stealth, no matter how you implement it, would irrevocably alter the style of the class. Now you suddenly get abilities you can only use when stealthed (and thus requiring one to be in stealth first to use them), you suddenly get Witch Elves everywhere sneaking around to try and surprise their enemies, you suddenly have to play the class carefully and picking-and-choosing your targets since they don’t have the survivability to just get in there and slaughter whatever comes closest like they are supposed to be, now you suddenly get a class which might even try to keep out of combat and only put in a couple of strong hits in strategic places.

A Witch Elf should be a class you can see coming from a mile away, but the class requires all your attention to deal with them. But instead it seems like the class can almost entirely be ignored since they might be at their most dangerous when you can’t see them coming anyway, and once you do notice them you just deal with them like every Marauder or Orc Choppa. I personally wouldn’t want the thing that makes my class stand out from the others to be the fact that my class can turn invisible and they can’t (in fact I’d rather have the opposite).

Just for clarification. I rather not see stealth in either. I want them to test it out and from that find other creative alternative means of accomplishing a said goal.
The thing I fear is that in testing it out they find that it seems to work reasonably and thus decide to just use stealth instead of looking at other (better) alternatives. Testing stealth isn’t going to tell you anything about those other alternatives that those other alternatives wouldn’t tell you when tested themselves.

But I’m just hoping now that if they test stealth they’ll just find out the hard way what the community has been saying all along: that stealth isn’t fun and doesn’t work no matter what you do with it. For once it seems the people who are more interested in lore and the people who are more interested in gameplay (for which I’ll have to defer to them to explain) are pretty much on the same page here and EA Mythic is just stubborn by denying both groups if they do put it in to test.


- Xurré

[Squizz]

An absolute no to stealth for witch elves here. You would be more likely to see a black orc using stealth. It really seems like Mythic is trying to make witch elves the typical rogue/assassin class which is the complete opposite of what a witch elf is.

Yes! I would like to see a tempory stealth linked to speed. I just think without it the class could be a poor man's Choppa, Hammerer or Witch Hunter. Whatever happend I hope the Witch Elf gets some unique traight/mechanic that will make them significantly different from other melee DPS classes.

Witch elves have plenty of unique mechanics: poisons, elixirs, frenzy points and finishers.

[Warbear]

You know, the more I think about it... I'm not completely opposed to having a class with stealth to a certain degree.

It has it's arguments. that of which, the Witch has 'opener' abilities that may be rather hard to perform in rvr, by trying to remain untargeted by other players to pull off such a maneuver. It will inspire ganking though. But for khaines sake... don't put in anything that resembles sap..........

And refrain from making stealth a heavily reliant ability. Maybe for short durations, working off a timer. Not the ability to stealth for as long as you like. Something along the lines of; 'Stealthy Approach: Enables the Witch Elf to temporarily cast herself into the shadows, and approach an unsuspecting target for 15 seconds.'. For the simple use of performing openers. Throw a cooldown on it, and make it out of combat use only, and i don't see it being game breaking.

Let me add, that I'm not a Lore buff, and have no real concept of what these classes entailed prior to seeing them listed on warhammer onlines official site descriptions.

[Squizz]

I sort of agree with warbear on the idea of a "stealthy approach" skill but in a way that does not use stealth. Maybe a sort of shadowstep ability as in wow rogues but does not require any stealth and can only be used out of combat. "The witch elf uses her incredible speed to approach the enemy in the blink of an eye" for example.

[Demerit]

And? How does that validate Witch Elves possibly getting stealth? If they get stealth because they’re not survivable enough without it then the problem lies in them not being survivable without it, not in them lacking stealth.

Don’t use the adding of an ability as the reason for adding the ability.

To answer your "and?" you could just refer back to the previous post to find the fairly obvious conclusion; saying I was validating WE stealth with that comment is a bit of a leap. I merely used the fact that RDPS aren't equal in all areas to support the speculation the MDPS might not be in the armor area; if you don't remember you said that the Maurader might have equal armor to the WE.

And I wasn't validating anything; I just said that traditionally rogue-like characters need some form of stealth. The fact that this happens to fall on the WE is purely coincidental.

Don’t forget the “Warhammer” in “Warhammer: Age of Reckoning”. If the setting, the lore, the flavour, etc wasn’t important then it would’ve just been “Age of Reckoning”. This is Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, not Rulehammer, Age of PvP.

Besides, I never said anything about tabletop.

Yeesh, either people have lost their sense of humor or have become more sensitive. The developers said the same thing in a more PC way I guess. They said that there might be breaks in lore in order to fit the Warhammer universe in a MMO. The fact the quote had an arrogant tone doesn't make it any less true. I never implied that you said anything about tabletop. But I don't control every word in a quote. I guess I should have bolded the "Lorehammer" for you to get the emphasis.

Honestly, I really don't get the basis of your response to the quote (especially the "Rulehammer" portion). You do understand the game is largely focused on PvP right?

Armor and stealth are far from the only ways to increase survivability of a class.

This is interesting. I would actually like to know the other ways. I would think all forms of survivability would reduce to DPS (kill before being killed), armor (last a long time), damage avoidance (avoiding damage), and healing (heal through damage). Usually for a DPS class it's either kill or be killed; apart from DPS, armor, stealth (damage avoidance), and healing how do you increase the survivability? I already mentioned the group dynamic altering the outcome but you made it sound like there are many more options.

It sounds to me that the problem is with how openers function for the class. If they have openers that require them to take enemies by surprise to be able to use them then they have openers that don’t fit the class.

Generally that's how openers work. I agree with that it doesn't fit the lore of the WE. However, I've become accustomed to it fitting the rogue-like class.

Instead of openers that require you to be out of combat to use them, how about openers that you can only use within the first second or so of combat so that you don’t need to get that first strike in to be able to use it. To make it more interesting, what if you can also only use them if the enemy hasn’t done a lot of damage to you yet (so that they can prevent you from using an opener by opening with a strong attack themselves, thus breaking through your frenzy and disallowing you from building it with a running start).

Really strong attacks right out the gate? And then you have to go with what counts as "a lot of damage." If they can get close without taking "a lot of damage," then obviously stealth wouldn't really need to be considered.

I’m also not altogether convinced that the whole combo point building is really a good mechanic for Witch Elves. It sounds way too… controlled. Instead I’d rather stack up heavily on positional attacks that encourage me to dance wildly around a target in an attempt to get positional attacks from all different sides in. I’d rather see abilities that make the Witch Elf do unexpected things that others would then have to respond to on-the-fly. This whole build-build-build-release-build-build-build-release was incredibly boring in Diablo 2 as well (haven’t played it in WoW).

Within the combo point system you can only build combo points on one target and for the pace of battles, I think it works rather well. Taking the reductionist approach by saying all it is is just build-build-build-release will of course make it sound dull. RDPS just shoots, shoots, and shoots some more but I'm sure people will enjoy those classes and everything else they have to offer (just like the WE has more to offer). And I'm not sure how long you think battles are going to last to be able to pull those ideas off. But I expect it to be over relatively quickly because I hardly expect (and would be contrary to war) to have little 1v1 battles all over the place.

Lore-wise I would agree with you that WE probably isn't the best fit. Aesthetically, I think they are (meaning if I had to look at all 3 DPS classes with no lore backing me, I would choose WE as the rogue-like character).

Maybe it’s selfish, but why am I the one, again, who’s got to be the one not pleased? It seems that at every turn they’re doing everything they can to screw over the Witch Elves (and to a lesser degree the dark elves in general). First we get the ridiculous Disciples usurping much of what makes Witch Elves cool to begin with, then we get Witch Elves playing like rogues instead of playing like berserker furies of slaughter, and now they might get stealth too?

Once again can't give a satisfying answer to that.

If they wanted to have a rogue class on Destruction to mirror the rogue class on Order then they should’ve just implemented Assassins and left Witch Elves out of their befouling of the setting. That way there wouldn’t have been any arguments on this front; everything discussed for the Witch Elves’ play style as well as stealth would fit Assassins absolutely perfectly. But they didn’t do that, they chose to implement Witch Elves. So they should implement Witch Elves and not Assassins in bikinis.

We agreed on this already.

Now I’m not one to claim I know much about cars. But as I understand it the sound and performance of the engine is actually a huge factor in how a car feels. People see through just applying a thin coat of paint to something and calling it different.

Frames and bodies actually alters how the car looks. It's not just a "thin coat of paint." Sedans and SUVs can both use V6 engines but no one would say they handle or look alike.

The thing I fear is that in testing it out they find that it seems to work reasonably and thus decide to just use stealth instead of looking at other (better) alternatives. Testing stealth isn’t going to tell you anything about those other alternatives that those other alternatives wouldn’t tell you when tested themselves.

We have different methodologies then. If I was trying to do something but wanted to avoid a particular method; I would want to know what all that method brought so I can make sure the method I do want to use keeps the main qualities. Purposefully trying to avoid something would make me really want to use it even more and make all my other attempts seem not quite up to par.

But I’m just hoping now that if they test stealth they’ll just find out the hard way what the community has been saying all along: that stealth isn’t fun and doesn’t work no matter what you do with it. For once it seems the people who are more interested in lore and the people who are more interested in gameplay (for which I’ll have to defer to them to explain) are pretty much on the same page here and EA Mythic is just stubborn by denying both groups if they do put it in to test.

I don't know if stealth isn't fun per se (b/c it is for some people). But I'd rather not see it in for the WE. And I hope this discussion we're having is ultimately pointless :D

EDIT: I meant pointless as in I hope that they don't put stealth in for the WE making me a kind of devil's advocate and this discussion pointless. Not some other interpretations that some could come up with.

[Sinfjotle]

Yeesh, either people have lost their sense of humor or have become more sensitive. The developers said the same thing in a more PC way I guess. They said that there might be breaks in lore in order to fit the Warhammer universe in a MMO. The fact the quote had an arrogant tone doesn't make it any less true. I never implied that you said anything about tabletop. But I don't control every word in a quote. I guess I should have bolded the "Lorehammer" for you to get the emphasis.


You don't remember what the developers said when they didn't include female Marauders do you?


This is interesting. I would actually like to know the other ways. I would think all forms of survivability would reduce to DPS (kill before being killed), armor (last a long time), damage avoidance (avoiding damage), and healing (heal through damage). Usually for a DPS class it's either kill or be killed; apart from DPS, armor, stealth (damage avoidance), and healing how do you increase the survivability? I already mentioned the group dynamic altering the outcome but you made it sound like there are many more options.

Statistical evasion (chance do dodge) is actually very lore appropriate and mechanically sound. It adds a certain luck element in, yes, but if balanced properly over averages that luck will be insignificant. It also gives a bit of a lore reason. You can quite easily translate it into the Witch Elf not trusting Khaine enough and that's why she lost that fight.

You can even give the Witch Elf and Utsusemi like move from FFXI. An ability that guarantees avoidance for X amount of "hits".

Now a general problem with Witch Elves as they are is they're being portrayed as rogues, which they strictly aren't. When you look at it as if they were rogues, then yes, you might see stealth somehow being proper for them, but they aren't rogues. They're anti-rogues.

(And I'd generally say how rogues are being portrayed through MMOs is rather pathetic, they're more assassins than rogues.)

[Xurré]

And I wasn't validating anything; I just said that traditionally rogue-like characters need some form of stealth.
First, I’m not at all convinced that rogue-like characters traditionally need stealth; rogue-like character have traditionally always had stealth, but them needing stealth is the result of them being design with stealth in mind. Design a rogue-like character without stealth in mind and suddenly they don’t need it at all anymore.

Secondly, I have no idea what whether a rogue-like character does or doesn’t need stealth has to do with whether Witch Elves should or shouldn’t get stealth. Witch Elves aren’t rogues; if they’re designed like rogues then that’s wrong.

The fact that this happens to fall on the WE is purely coincidental.
It’s only coincidental if you utterly ignore the setting; if you ignore the setting then anything can be anything and it’s a crapshoot which class is what; according to that logic Ironbreakers could coincidentally be the flying class.

It’s not coincidental that Witch Elves are turned into a rogue-like class; it’s a mistake. If they wanted a rogue-like class they had every opportunity to implement them by using Assassins instead.

Honestly, I really don't get the basis of your response to the quote (especially the "Rulehammer" portion). You do understand the game is largely focused on PvP right?
My basis for that response was that it makes just as much sense as the thing you quoted. “Rulehammer” has just as much relevance to the discussion as “Age or Tabletop”. And yes, I’m well aware that PvP is an important aspect of the game, but that’s my point: so is the lore. The game isn’t solely about lore, true, but the game isn’t solely about PvP either. In fact I’m convinced that a large portion of the players (maybe even the majority) well hardly ever be involved in PvP (since it seems the more casual players tend to prefer PvE and they likely make up the bulk of the future playerbase). In contrast every player will be confronted with the lore in one way or another whether they have a direct interest in it or not; the Tome of Knowledge alone is going to be full of it (and every quest description is going to refer to the lore to some degree or another).

So while the lore might not be the only thing that’s important (as the “Lorehammer” from your quote would imply), it’s definitely a very important part of the game. And part of that is making the Witch Elves feel like they’re described in the setting instead of making them feel like Assassins.

This is interesting. I would actually like to know the other ways. I would think all forms of survivability would reduce to DPS (kill before being killed), armor (last a long time), damage avoidance (avoiding damage), and healing (heal through damage). Usually for a DPS class it's either kill or be killed; apart from DPS, armor, stealth (damage avoidance), and healing how do you increase the survivability? I already mentioned the group dynamic altering the outcome but you made it sound like there are many more options.
You’ve already mentioned the main categories beyond the use of armor to increase survivability, though another category is definitely debuffing the enemy. But within those categories there’s a myriad of ways, particularly in “damage avoidance”. In fact, you could probably count armor as a form of damage avoidance too. Heck, even DPS is a way of damage avoidance (you avoid the damage by making sure they can’t make the attack in the first place).

If I’d make a list of ways to increase survivability it’s probably include the following:


Increase killing speed (your “DPS”)
Absorb part of the damage (your “armor”)
Avoid attacks (includes dodging and “obfuscating”)
Block attacks (shielding and force-fields and such)
Undo damage (your “healing”)
Increase health (more hit points means longer survivability)
Hiding (your “damage avoidance”; includes stealth)
Make targeting more difficult (this is why people tend to jump a lot in games)
Stopping enemies (freezing them, fearing them, etc)
Slowing enemies (so it’ll take them longer to damage you)
Reduce enemy attacks (like “enemy loses next attack they try on you”)
Reduce enemy accuracy (decrease their WS/BS)
Stay out of attack range (stay out of melee distance of melee classes or quickly close into melee distance of ranged classes to prevent their ranged attacks)


And all of these can “last a long time” or be temporary (just as armor, which can also last a long time or be temporary).

And when you look at the lore for a second you’ll note that adepts of the Temple of Khaine can get a number of skills in various of these categories: Dance of Doom gives them a ward save by making them dodge fast (can also be interpreted to some degree as slowing enemies or reducing their accuracy). Hand of Khaine robs an enemy of an attack and Cry of War reduces their WS. Two others increase the killing power of the character in different ways. And it’s not hard at all to see ways to do a number of the other ones.

All in all saying that they need stealth to compensate for lack of armor is flat-out wrong.

Really strong attacks right out the gate? And then you have to go with what counts as "a lot of damage." If they can get close without taking "a lot of damage," then obviously stealth wouldn't really need to be considered.
Exactly. Stealth doesn’t need to be considered since they should be able to close without taking a lot of damage. If they can’t survive without stealth then the problem is with that they can’t survive without stealth, not that they don’t have stealth.

Within the combo point system you can only build combo points on one target and for the pace of battles, I think it works rather well.
Actually, as I recall, in Diablo 2 any combo points you built remained for a short period of time so that you could build them off multiple opponents. Partly I’m sure this was because enemies died so quickly, but either way would work depending on how quickly you kill people in WAR. In fact I’d say that even if it takes a long time to kill an enemy then it’s more enjoyable to be able to take points from one fight to another (if you’re quick enough) since that ties the fights together in one battle instead of making it a lot of isolated and independent fights.

Taking the reductionist approach by saying all it is is just build-build-build-release will of course make it sound dull.
Perhaps, but I’ve found it quite dull in other games; not at all like the frenzied, crazed maniac that I’d expect Witch Elves to play as.

Lore-wise I would agree with you that WE probably isn't the best fit. Aesthetically, I think they are (meaning if I had to look at all 3 DPS classes with no lore backing me, I would choose WE as the rogue-like character).
And which Destruction class would you choose as the archery class? Which Destruction class would you choose as the melee pet class? Which one would you choose as the heal-bot class? Which one would you choose as the sniper class? Which one… etc.

Your problem here is the apparent assumption that there should be a rogue-like class. In my view there doesn’t have to be (and if there has to be then it should be the Assassin and not the Witch Elves; now there’s something that screams “rogue-like class” to me). If one looks at the classes with no lore backing them then they should choose Witch Elves as the insane-berserker, in-your-face melee damage class. Not as the rogue class, because if that’s the reason one picks the class they’re picking it for the wrong reason (and it’s portrayed wrong by EA Mythic if it gives them the impression that it is such a class).

We have different methodologies then. If I was trying to do something but wanted to avoid a particular method; I would want to know what all that method brought so I can make sure the method I do want to use keeps the main qualities. Purposefully trying to avoid something would make me really want to use it even more and make all my other attempts seem not quite up to par.
I have yet to see any game developer say to their beta testers: “here, we’ve just spend a lot of time and resources implementing this for you to test, even though we know pretty much for certain that we’re not going to use it.” Instead I’ve always seen developers implement what they expect to use and tweak and modify it to fit the qualities they’re looking for. There simply isn’t enough time, money and resources to waste on things you’re not going to use.

Secondly, the mistake I think you’re making here is that you’re trying to make something that does the same thing as stealth without it, maybe, being stealth. Instead look at the larger problem and tackle it in a way that’s suitable. If you take the approach you suggest then all you’re really doing is saying “I really want to have stealth, so I’m trying to make something that’s as much like it as possible”. The problem lies in you wanting to have the qualities of stealth in the first place.

I don't know if stealth isn't fun per se (b/c it is for some people).
Stealth is only fun for (some of) the people playing a class with stealth. Stealth isn’t fun for anyone else and is, in fact, frustrating to pretty much everyone else. Even if stealth is limited that doesn’t change (at best you limit how often it is frustrating to everyone else).

Besides, some people also like first-person shooter; that doesn’t mean that there should be a first-person shooter class.



Anyway, I’m in full agreement with you that Witch Elves shouldn’t have stealth, hoping along with you that they won’t have it in the final game. And I’ll fight with my last breath to ensure that they don’t. Because stealth is simply wrong for Witch Elves (just as pink thongs are simply wrong for Orcs).


- Xurré

[Syrak]

There are some really adamant Lore heavy people in this thread so I will do my best not to offend anyone.

In group RvR or PvP people tend to go for the softest target. The one who poses a threat and is easy to kill. A light armored heavy DPS target is very tasty target to kill first. A lot of the ideas you pose are simply overpowered. A high general movement speed for example is just wrong and very overpowering. The ability to completely dodge all projectiles when not in melee combat is also just completely wrong and overpowered.

So I pose a question to you. What did witch elves do in the lore to get into melee range with ranged combatants? Did they pounce or leap into combat? If so then thats a good solution, but what if you're focus fired before you get that opportunity? Stealth is a legitimate tactic that is not overpowered if implemented correctly. I realize it is not lore-friendly, but are you truly willing to make a class either overpowered or underpowered to satisfy lore? Personally I'd rather have a balanced game, but I'm not warhammer lore person.

[Xurré]

A light armored heavy DPS target is very tasty target to kill first.
That’s only true if they’re implemented that way. As I said before there are other ways besides armor to increase the survivability of a class.

Witch Elves are hardly the only heavy dps class with low armor on Destruction; Marauders, possibly Orc Choppas, Squig Herders, Goblin Shamans, Zealots and Sorceresses are all said to be capable damage dealers and/or have other dangerous abilities and they all have low armor… and yet you don’t see them possibly getting stealth. So apparently they are survivable without it.

In short, the flaw in your argument is that you’re assuming that they’re easy to kill. I say to that; just don’t make them that easy to kill. Don’t need stealth for that at all.

A high general movement speed for example is just wrong and very overpowering. The ability to completely dodge all projectiles when not in melee combat is also just completely wrong and overpowered.
The ability to stay completely invisible for all time is similarly overpowered, so we should just toss stealth altogether since that fact makes less absolute implementations of it useless too. [/sarcasm] :roll:

They’re only overpowered if you implement them as overpowered, just as with stealth (isn’t the argument of people for including stealth that they might implement it in a not overpowered way). Having temporary speed increases, such as what charges would offer, isn’t overpowered. Giving increased general speed at the cost of continually depleting APs isn’t overpowered. Having increased protection against projectiles on an ability or with some other drawback isn’t overpowered. Having increased protection (as opposed to being totally immune to) projectiles when not in melee doesn’t have to be overpowered either. It’s all just a matter of how you implement it, just as with any ability.

Heck, hat about an ability that lets you focus on a specific enemy and have increased protection against their projectiles only? Or, heck, just increase the defense of their bikinis to be good enough armor protection if that’s really the only way to do it. It ain’t logical, but it’s a damn sight more logical than giving Witch Elves stealth.

So I pose a question to you. What did witch elves do in the lore to get into melee range with ranged combatants? Did they pounce or leap into combat?
Charge straight ahead at the enemy pretty much. The leap idea is an invention, but if the Agile Escape is an acceptable skill then an equivalent leap into combat is one too. Besides, a leap like that makes logical sense for them too; it’s very easy to see a Witch Elf jumping on someone screaming at the top of her lungs.

And similarly the way they survive against ranged combatants in the lore is by being so quick and nimble that they dodge projectiles or possibly swat them aside or such. Again I can’t think of any direct description of this, but it fits their personality and style.

but what if you're focus fired before you get that opportunity?
Shouldn’t focus fire be a problem for any class? If you want to give complete and total protection against any targeted attack with stealth then it’s also acceptable to give protection against targeted ranged attacks directly by increasing their defence against projectiles (heck, maybe even give them total protection against it, which is what you’re doing with your stealth too).

Stealth is a legitimate tactic that is not overpowered if implemented correctly.
That’s the crux, isn’t it. “If implemented correctly”. Everything is a legitimate tactic that’s not overpowered if implemented correctly. Don’t use the argument of incorrectly implemented skills to prove that something doesn’t work while at the same turn noting that stealth works because it is implemented correctly.

I realize it is not lore-friendly, but are you truly willing to make a class either overpowered or underpowered to satisfy lore? Personally I'd rather have a balanced game, but I'm not warhammer lore person.
If, and only if, stealth is the absolute only way to make the game balanced (and I don’t believe that it is by a longshot) then they shouldn’t have picked the Witch Elves for the spot in the first place. And even now that they have they should drop the class entirely and implement Assassins instead since Witch Elves implemented as Assassins is worse than no Witch Elves at all.


- Xurré

[Syrak]

I am going to have to disagree with you about the other two Destruction melee DPS classes appearing anywhere near as exposed as the Witch Elf. They are both in leather or the equivalent plus the Marauder supposedly has defensive mutations for his skin. There is also a big difference in a big frickin Orc or mutated warrior than a scantily clad dark elf woman. I'm not saying armor is the only way to mitigate damage, but you were suggesting flat out advantages over all classes that can be used offensively and defensively.

Having a limited stealth and that you can't use in combat is not overpowered. It means it has to be used tactically. I'm not saying witch elves should have stealth...honestly I really dont care one way or the other because I am not interested in playing one. I just dont want them to be overpowered by being able to run down people or dodge all ranged attacks.

As far as all classes having to worry about focus fire...well of course. Many have high armor mitigation or heals or range or limited CC to limit how well they can be focus fired. Its difficult for a MDPS class to really be able to do any of those. They will probably have to rely on tanks and healers pretty heavily, but as a result they are probably the highest dps classes in the game with only sorcerer/bright wizard giving them a run for their money.

[Xurré]

I am going to have to disagree with you about the other two Destruction melee DPS classes appearing anywhere near as exposed as the Witch Elf. They are both in leather or the equivalent plus the Marauder supposedly has defensive mutations for his skin.
Really? It looks to me like the Marauder is pretty much naked (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/careers/Marauder_01.jpg). And if the Marauder can have abilities to increase its defense then Witch Elves can have abilities to increase their defense as well. Heck, it can even be pure damage mitigation if you want; it's just numbers and just a matter of how you word things "The Witch Elf twirls her blades wildly, deflecting part of the damage done to her" or "taking a particularly toxic herb the Witch Elf numbs herself to pain, ignoring part of the damage done to her". Heck, I don't like Witches using magic much, but if they absolutely must have something then I can even see a "using secret blood rituals the Witch Elf covers herself in the blood of her enemies, the blood working like an armored skin" (which, btw, is an ability you could get in the game Vampire Bloodlines).

The fact that you seem to have trouble seeing beyond armor doesn't make that the only way to do things.

There is also a big difference in a big frickin Orc or mutated warrior than a scantily clad dark elf woman.
Indeed, the scantily clad dark elf woman is by far the most deadly, murderous and bloodthirsty of the three. Don't judge a book by its cover. :p

I'm not saying armor is the only way to mitigate damage, but you were suggesting flat out advantages over all classes that can be used offensively and defensively.
I was suggesting different directions to think in. Don't go dismissing them because I haven't done all the work in detail for EA Mythic. Because if I'd do the same to you I'd outright dismiss Stealth as a viable gameplay mechanic in general since it's rediculously overpowered to be so in complete control of what, when and where to fight without the enemy even having a chance to counter it (unlike all of my suggestions).

Having a limited stealth and that you can't use in combat is not overpowered. It means it has to be used tactically. I'm not saying witch elves should have stealth...honestly I really dont care one way or the other because I am not interested in playing one. I just dont want them to be overpowered by being able to run down people or dodge all ranged attacks.
You're still not listening. Having limited anything isn't overpowered if done well. Stealth is overpowered too if you can use it to pop out of nowhere and avoid all ranged attacks too. In fact I'd say it's even moreso since it doesn't give the enemy any chance to counter it. if you don't know an enemy is there then there's not much you can do about them.

As far as all classes having to worry about focus fire...well of course. Many have high armor mitigation or heals or range or limited CC to limit how well they can be focus fired. Its difficult for a MDPS class to really be able to do any of those. They will probably have to rely on tanks and healers pretty heavily, but as a result they are probably the highest dps classes in the game with only sorcerer/bright wizard giving them a run for their money.
You're making a lot of assumptions here. So I'll go ahead and say that if the game is made such that the melee dps classes, who are supposed to be the natural predators of the ranged classes, have the most trouble surviving ranged focus fire then the game is simply designed wrong. Stealth has nothing to do with that (except perhaps that it's a very poor way to solve the myriad of problems introduced by design errors elsewhere).


- Xurré

[Syrak]

Let me start by saying that you are WAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY more passionate about witch elves than me so please for the love of god stop getting that condescending tone in your posts. It really turns me off from posting in your threads.

Thats a picture of Tier 1 marauder...not end game which is honestly all that matters. Again I'm not saying stealth is the answer. I like your ideas of "eating a herb to deaden the pain you feel". I think thats a good idea as long as its on a sufficient cooldown (i.e. a few minutes). I think that plus a leap into and out of combat ability would possibly make the witch elf viable with no stealth. The key though is how fast they die once they are in combat and getting focus fired, which stealth would not fix anyways. Maybe give them a blood feast ability that by drinking the blood of their foes they absorb their life force and can withstand X damage or are healed for X damage...i dont know.

Anyways...no more condescending tone or this is my last post here.

[Arcantir]

I reckon stealth will be implimented in sucha way to sumehow gimp or impare those classes who get it, 'cuse they already have said that they don't like the idea of being 'invincible' (as in not being able to be killed - 'cuse you can't be seen) whilst in stealth.

Anyways...

Can I have some of your cookies?

Don't fight it, if you like it ;)

[Xurré]

Thats a picture of Tier 1 marauder...not end game which is honestly all that matters.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. The game has to be balanced at every level of the game, not just at the mythical "endgame". If the first 39 levels aren't balanced and fun then most people aren't going to stick around for the endgame.

In fact I'd say the earlier levels are almost more important than the endgame since that's when you wheel people in and show them what a great game this is. If the beginning isn't balanced and fun I'm certainly not going to stick around in the vague hopes that maybe the game truly 'begins' at the last level, and I doubt many people would. The game has to be pretty much equally fun throughout.

That is, of course, unless the first 39 levels are so meaningless that even a casual player cruises through them in a week or two and the whole game really is the last level.

Again I'm not saying stealth is the answer. I like your ideas of "eating a herb to deaden the pain you feel". I think thats a good idea as long as its on a sufficient cooldown (i.e. a few minutes). I think that plus a leap into and out of combat ability would possibly make the witch elf viable with no stealth. The key though is how fast they die once they are in combat and getting focus fired, which stealth would not fix anyways. Maybe give them a blood feast ability that by drinking the blood of their foes they absorb their life force and can withstand X damage or are healed for X damage...i dont know.
That's really all I'm saying; there are numerous other directions to go here instead of stealth. The ideas I've posted here are really just off the top of my head. You'd think that someone who gets paid to design this game, and spend all his/her working hours doing so, would be able to come up with far more and far more creative ideas.

Stealth really seems the escape of a designer bankrupt of creativity. A "I can't think of anything else, so let's just put in stealth then". Stealth shouldn't even be considered until all other options have been tried and thoroughly exhausted, and not only have I not seen any signs of that, but there's not even any indication whatsoever that they've even tried. Not to mention that giving stealth to Witch Elves is by far the worst possible class they could give it to, not only showing complete lack of creativity, but also an utter disregard of the setting they're supposedly making this game in; a setting they're supposedly upholding.

In that case you'd wonder why Games Workshop doesn't put a stop to it, but I've long since believing that Games Workshop gives a crap about their setting. I could go on about that, but that's getting rather off-topic.

What baffles me though is people saying "yeah, I don't think stealth really fits Witch Elves either" and then going on defending the inclusion of stealth for Witch Elves, almost as if they're trying to justify to themselves how EA Mythic could make such a decidedly ridiculous decision.

Either stealth fits Witch Elves or it doesn't; and if it doesn't it really shouldn't be in at all (and if stealth is absolutely needed then Witch Elves shouldn't be in).



I reckon stealth will be implimented in sucha way to sumehow gimp or impare those classes who get it, 'cuse they already have said that they don't like the idea of being 'invincible' (as in not being able to be killed - 'cuse you can't be seen) whilst in stealth.
That's great... not only give an ability to a class which really is the least suited to have it... but have the ability also make the class weaker overall.

In fact that's one of my problems; no matter how you implement stealth it's going to be a big factor in how the class is balanced. This means that if you choose not to use stealth you'll be gimping yourself. Since if you wouldn't be then the class would be playable without stealth to begin with and thus doesn't need to have it in the first place.

Including stealth radically changes the nature of a class. So if the class doesn't already suggest stealth then it shouldn't get it.



- Xurré

[dynamo112]

Im tired and dont feel like reading all eleven pages in this thread but IMO other methods of closing spaces can be used. Why stealth? Is it because people think it's " OMGOD GNARLY STEALTHZORZ " or because it actually helps close the gap? Personally I think they should stick with the idea of WE's being able to escape a sticky situation by making large leaps backwards. Why not forwards?

My 2 cents..

[Baradun]

how bout we give them jet packs and a mario brothers cap too? lol

[Hoodwink]

how bout we give them jet packs and a mario brothers cap too? lol

Better than laser guns and a cloaking device, anyway.

[WastedTrojan]

Stealth doesn't fit in with Witch Elves. They are supposed to be screaming and bloodthirsty and ultra aggressive. Why can't they just jump at thier opponent or get some kind of a short duration speed and evasion increase skill.

[Dukha]

IF they get stealth in any form what so ever please make it so that you have to specc for it. That way I can just choose a different mastery as I don't want to sneak up on people, thats not what attracted me to the Witch Elfs.

Ah, I hope we get some official word on this soon.

[Xurré]

IF they get stealth in any form what so ever please make it so that you have to specc for it. That way I can just choose a different mastery as I don't want to sneak up on people, thats not what attracted me to the Witch Elfs.
Exactly. If they absolutely have to have stealth then let is be in some "Path of Perfidy" or some such nonsense. That way we can utterly and completely ignore that path and play the Witch Elf true to her style. The absolute worst thing here would be for stealth to be a core skill.

Of course, if you can choose to ignore it then apparently the class doesn't need it. So why have it to begin with.


- Xurré

[WastedTrojan]

If they can't figure out any way for the witch elf to close the distance other than stealth they better at least make the stealth a very short duration and it really better not have any ambush style openers that take away 50% of your health before you can react.

If stealth turns out to be a class defining ability then you can only assume that the WE mirror, the Witch Hunter, will also get a stealth ability. I don't want to see classes that rely on stealth and HAVE TO get an opener to win like in that other game.

I would take that as a complete lack of creativity by the developers and a complete bastardization of the lore. Im not a lore or rp buff but I still don't think that the lore that has been refined for 25 years should be comprimised. It would also add one of the ugliest parts of that other game.

I hope this is handled well, getting a stealth class in this game that can always choose when to attack 100% of the time and can remain hidden indefinatly and kill a cloth wearer out of stealth quickly would be a game breaker for me and I personally would go someplace else.

[Mikhail87]

No stealth. Please no stealth. Please.

[Demerit]

You don't remember what the developers said when they didn't include female Marauders do you?

I remember. And I remember what they said when they allowed male sorcerors to be included in this "Age of Reckoning" under Malekith. And Disciple of Khaine says hi too. What you quoted had the words "there might be breaks in lore," meaning they might stick with it or they might not.

First, I’m not at all convinced that rogue-like characters traditionally need stealth; rogue-like character have traditionally always had stealth, but them needing stealth is the result of them being design with stealth in mind. Design a rogue-like character without stealth in mind and suddenly they don’t need it at all anymore.

A couple of things because you seem to be misunderstanding me. First off, you have been completely misinterpreting what I mean by stealth. In games with assassin/rogue like characters, you have means of going undetected; whether it's hide in the shadows, camo, disguise, terrain, etc. This is what I meant by traditional and if you can find traditional rogue/assassin like characters who are meant to come in guns-a-blazing, then I would like to see some examples. Secondly, In MMOs you can't really use most of them (camo, terrain, etc.) to have effective forms of stealth so some games just pop the invisibility route. However, I don't like the invisible route. I even suggested what I thought would be a better "slip-by" stealth over the wait invisible forever stealth; it had bouts of momentary visibility, timer, etc.

It’s only coincidental if you utterly ignore the setting; if you ignore the setting then anything can be anything and it’s a crapshoot which class is what; according to that logic Ironbreakers could coincidentally be the flying class.

You didn't follow my logic at all. I said that in response to your claim about me validating stealth for the WE. As I just explained what I meant by traditional characters having stealth mechanics, the fact that we have to discuss this about WE is merely a coincidence. If this so happened to be the Choppa class were talking about, I would still say traditionally rogue-like characters have some form of stealth. Read what I wrote again and see if you can logically extrapolate and exaggerate to come up with "Ironbreakers could coincidentally be the flying class."

It’s not coincidental that Witch Elves are turned into a rogue-like class; it’s a mistake. If they wanted a rogue-like class they had every opportunity to implement them by using Assassins instead.

Really beating a dead horse here. Fact remains that they're probably are not going to switch out the characters but yes I agree, Assassins would be a more appropriate choice.

My basis for that response was that it makes just as much sense as the thing you quoted. “Rulehammer” has just as much relevance to the discussion as “Age or Tabletop”. And yes, I’m well aware that PvP is an important aspect of the game, but that’s my point: so is the lore. The game isn’t solely about lore, true, but the game isn’t solely about PvP either. In fact I’m convinced that a large portion of the players (maybe even the majority) well hardly ever be involved in PvP (since it seems the more casual players tend to prefer PvE and they likely make up the bulk of the future playerbase). In contrast every player will be confronted with the lore in one way or another whether they have a direct interest in it or not; the Tome of Knowledge alone is going to be full of it (and every quest description is going to refer to the lore to some degree or another).

1) I see now your response to the quote was nothing more than a base-less remark. The quote I used was a response to a real sentiment amongst some members of the community; some people really hope (like you) that everything in the game will follow lore exactly and/or capture the very essence of the tabletop game in a 3D MMO. The developers already said some elements might be altered to make it fit in a MMO world. Your response to the quote was just a bunch of words put together.

2) Never thought people who actively followed the game would think this (bolded). PvP is definitely integrated into the core of the game and its a bit unfortunate to say that the majority of people will skip it but that just means that they'll be playing the game to 1/2 (or less) of its full potential.

You’ve already mentioned the main categories beyond the use of armor to increase survivability, though another category is definitely debuffing the enemy. But within those categories there’s a myriad of ways, particularly in “damage avoidance”. In fact, you could probably count armor as a form of damage avoidance too. Heck, even DPS is a way of damage avoidance (you avoid the damage by making sure they can’t make the attack in the first place).

I did forget debuff. I considered damage avoidance to be completely avoiding damage so armor wouldn't be in my list (its a reduction of damage) and I mentally included some CC to be in that category. What I find really interesting is that you took core concepts and nuanced them a bit to make the play out slightly different in-game. And I knew this (which is was part of my argument for class mechanics and mirroring). If you take two groups, other than length of time, what's the real difference between Group A increasing their armor (buffs, actually armor, etc.) or Group A debuffing Group B's attack power in the resulting outcome?

Exactly. Stealth doesn’t need to be considered since they should be able to close without taking a lot of damage. If they can’t survive without stealth then the problem is with that they can’t survive without stealth, not that they don’t have stealth.

I am almost positive that the WE will get abilities to close the distance; they said it numerous times. People keep saying give them leap ins and I say sure but since they are being built on the openers, combos, finishers mechanic (yes, yes I know Xurre, its a mistake and they shouldn't and its not fair but it's probably not going to change), they need abilities to let them at least be able able to pull it off with some form of effectiveness. I don't think it's that they can't survive without a form of stealth per se, their max efficiency may be harder to reach and thus limit the WE.

Actually, as I recall, in Diablo 2 any combo points you built remained for a short period of time so that you could build them off multiple opponents. Partly I’m sure this was because enemies died so quickly, but either way would work depending on how quickly you kill people in WAR. In fact I’d say that even if it takes a long time to kill an enemy then it’s more enjoyable to be able to take points from one fight to another (if you’re quick enough) since that ties the fights together in one battle instead of making it a lot of isolated and independent fights.

I hope you don't die before you know what's going on either. But I still doubt you're going to be alive that long especially when you have multiple people gunning for you. And it sounds like you agree with combo point system being built on one person due to length of battle which is what I said.

And which Destruction class would you choose as the archery class? Which Destruction class would you choose as the melee pet class? Which one would you choose as the heal-bot class? Which one would you choose as the sniper class? Which one… etc.

Archery/sniper = the one with the bow. Melee-Pet class = the one who is built for melee and has a pet (obviously no one on Destruction). Heal-bot = no one if they don't want to be :D. Rogue class = the gracile one, little to no armor, with 2 daggers. We already know the classes and archetypes; if you make one up and it doesn't fit, it doesn't transitively mean that another class shouldn't be there. This line of reasoning is rather pointless.

Your problem here is the apparent assumption that there should be a rogue-like class. In my view there doesn’t have to be (and if there has to be then it should be the Assassin and not the Witch Elves; now there’s something that screams “rogue-like class” to me). If one looks at the classes with no lore backing them then they should choose Witch Elves as the insane-berserker, in-your-face melee damage class. Not as the rogue class, because if that’s the reason one picks the class they’re picking it for the wrong reason (and it’s portrayed wrong by EA Mythic if it gives them the impression that it is such a class).

I'm not making any assumptions. They said the WE plays like a traditional rogue-like character. Whether it should be in or not is a matter of opinion and your assumptions about what the game should be going for.

I have yet to see any game developer say to their beta testers: “here, we’ve just spend a lot of time and resources implementing this for you to test, even though we know pretty much for certain that we’re not going to use it.” Instead I’ve always seen developers implement what they expect to use and tweak and modify it to fit the qualities they’re looking for. There simply isn’t enough time, money and resources to waste on things you’re not going to use.

It's usually given to beta testers in a "raw" and rough form. I don't think it's uncommon for features to be pulled in beta; if things don't work right in game as they sounded on paper, then they'll pull it or *gasp* alter it to make it more fitting.

Secondly, the mistake I think you’re making here is that you’re trying to make something that does the same thing as stealth without it, maybe, being stealth. Instead look at the larger problem and tackle it in a way that’s suitable. If you take the approach you suggest then all you’re really doing is saying “I really want to have stealth, so I’m trying to make something that’s as much like it as possible”. The problem lies in you wanting to have the qualities of stealth in the first place.

I'm not making a mistake. I think the mistake that you're making is that you think everything is immutable (except for the idea that they should completely rework the WE or replace it with Assassins) and, as I stated above, that the only form of stealth is going invisible using the wait and hide mechanic. The only reason you're calling it a cheap way out is because of your predisposed bias against stealth in the first place. I don't see you throwing a fit that this game admitted to wanting to use some of the best parts of WoW (it's streamlined mechanics; I know WoW copied others, using it b/c they said it and for argument's sake) while injecting their own formula into the mix.

Stealth is only fun for (some of) the people playing a class with stealth. Stealth isn’t fun for anyone else and is, in fact, frustrating to pretty much everyone else. Even if stealth is limited that doesn’t change (at best you limit how often it is frustrating to everyone else).

Large bolts of fire incinerating me is probably only fun for the user too.

Besides, some people also like first-person shooter; that doesn’t mean that there should be a first-person shooter class.

A bit of a stretch don't you think? Even if it was a tongue-in-cheek remark. Every game sets boundaries on the scope of their project but I don't think stealth falls that much outside of their scope as FPS elements.

[Sinfjotle]

I remember. And I remember what they said when they allowed male sorcerors to be included in this "Age of Reckoning" under Malekith. And Disciple of Khaine says hi too. What you quoted had the words "there might be breaks in lore," meaning they might stick with it or they might not.


There original reason they included male only Marauder was (paraphrasing) to keep the game as close to the source lore as possible.

...

Needless to say, they've been more than a bit hypocritical.

[Ralzar]

There original reason they included male only Marauder was (paraphrasing) to keep the game as close to the source lore as possible.

And juuust so no more misinformation is spread on this particular subject: Female Marauders are FINE in the lore. They're specifically mentioned in the Hordes Of Chaos army book.

[Thorens]

What is mythic did include stealth, that then? If they deemed it necessary to include this for the Witch Elfs. Lore aside, wouldn't it be a good thing? To have a way to close in the gap between you and your enemy. Looking at the Witch Elf now, it looks like a very mobile, very unarmored class. They only ability described to us to close in the gap was the leap ability they mentioned o so briefly, which can be inferred that that makes it a non core mechanic.

Stealth would be an asset to the witch elf, and possibly the witch hunter as well. It would give them a way in and out of battle.

The downside of stealth (mechanic wise, not lore) is that they would end up like WoW rouges, a constant bother that always gets the first strike in.

In the end though, I wouldn't be surprised if they did include stealth, but at the price of breaking the lore of a class, the Con's out weigh the Pro's.

(P.S. If they did include stealth, what would you fine people do?)

[Gemini]

What is mythic did include stealth, that then?


http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27612

[baso]

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27612

If that's to say that majority of players would hate it, i am sorry to say that poll can only be valid for the 309 ppl that voted here on the forum. And in best case we can say that its representative for all the ppl here on the forum.

A) Without having anything to back my statement up, I am gonna take a wild guess that the average person playing WAR want to have a stealth class (and I'm not arguing about witch elf should get it, but from my I-dont-know-anything-about-the-lore witch elf suits the most because of Mythic have turned them into a rogue-ish character). The average player is not the average player here on the boards. Ppl here now alot about lore and have followed the development for a long long time.

B) Maybe before introducing stealth, or testing stealth or whatever Mythic does in beta-testing, they have made such a poll and the outcome was quite different from this board.

I agree with all the ppl here on the boards saying there is no logic in witch elves getting stealth. If they wanted stealth they should have implemented assassins, witch is more of an rogue-ish character.

But to Xurres original question: Just from a perspective from a guy knowing nothing about the lore, I think stealth suits witch elves because all the vids I have seen, how they stand with the daggers and fight they remind me of assassins. From a lore perspecive, yes I agree that stealth doesnt fit the crazy, screaming, frenzy witch elves.

[Saelkar]

i heard somewhere in an interview with one of the makers there would be no stealth, they said the characters in the game 'had no reason to hide or sneak' -or something along these lines. i do not know what to think if they dont have stealth too bad, if they do? -too bad

[Asmodean]

I am just disappointed that they caved in to the demands of the "we want stealth" faction in general. In particular I am disapoointed that WE will most likely get it. Reading the novels I never had the impression that WE's were really stealthy. Not more than any regular class at least.

I really hope that it is just "stealth" and no "invisibility" like WoW's rogue actually have or there will be balance issues once more. 3 stealthers circling your battle line and taking out your healer before you can say "what the heck"...how fun! /sarcasm

[Gemini]

If that's to say that majority of players would hate it, i am sorry to say that poll can only be valid for the 309 ppl that voted here on the forum. And in best case we can say that its representative for all the ppl here on the forum.

Exactly, and I was replying to the guy who was asking what we would do if there WE's got steath, I was showing him a thread full of people answering that question.

[Sickletooth]

Only really awesome/devout WEs should get stealth.

The area around them should be painted completely and entirely with the blood of their enemies, as should they, so it wouldn't be traditional mmorpg invisible stealth, but more like blending in with all the gore and blood around them stealth.

[Discotheque]

I'd also prefer no stealth. A charge move or something would work equally well, in terms of closing in on RDPS. Perhaps too many other classes already have a charge move and they are looking at a different mechanic.

IF they were set on putting in stealth, i would suggest a short (8-10 sec) stealth with increased movement speed. Not usable in combat, with quite high AP cost. The idea is for your opponent to be able to see you from a distance, to know you are around. The description could be something like 'Driven by bloodlust, the witch elf sprints with such high speed as to be come invisible for a short time'

This would make the player think 'Hmm do i really have to use stealth in this situation or can I save the AP for some stronger attacks?' Instead of it being a no-brainer - being in stealth is always better than being visible.

Lastly, stealth should not always mean high damage opening attacks. They could come out of stealth with a snare or something similar, so the class is not dependent on always using stealth to open for damage.

[Sickletooth]

I'd also prefer no stealth. A charge move or something would work equally well, in terms of closing in on RDPS. Perhaps too many other classes already have a charge move and they are looking at a different mechanic.

IF they were set on putting in stealth, i would suggest a short (8-10 sec) stealth with increased movement speed. Not usable in combat, with quite high AP cost. The idea is for your opponent to be able to see you from a distance, to know you are around. The description could be something like 'Driven by bloodlust, the witch elf sprints with such high speed as to be come invisible for a short time'

This would make the player think 'Hmm do i really have to use stealth in this situation or can I save the AP for some stronger attacks?' Instead of it being a no-brainer - being in stealth is always better than being visible.

Lastly, stealth should not always mean high damage opening attacks. They could come out of stealth with a snare or something similar, so the class is not dependent on always using stealth to open for damage.

If they moved extremely quick in this mode, wouldn't it also be used for runnin' away?

[Discotheque]

Not usable in combat,

No, you wouldnt be able to use it to run away in combat.

[dynamo112]

EDITED: by me

Stupid NDA..

[Sickletooth]

No, you wouldnt be able to use it to run away in combat.

One isn't always locked into combat!

[Dukha]

Meh, a suggestion like that could well make Witches unkillable. Atleast if the player knew what he/she was doing.

Step 1. Kite out of combat. If needed using Agile Escape if thats still in.

Step 2. Spam the stealth button for that small window before your opponent gets you in combat again.

Step 3. Run away. Or possibly reaply powerful opener.

I'm very sorry but that's NOT in any way the kind of gameplay that attracted me to Witch Elfs. Please pretty please with sugar on top sau it won't be like that!

<Cries a little, then sacrifices a cute kitten hoping random acts of cruelty will distract from such thoughts of despair>

[mongoose]

If we simply ignore the one of the mantras Mythic has been chanting for the last two years...."NO STEALTH" then Im not necessarily opposed to it.

What I am opposed to however is arbitrarily giving it out to classes that dont have it in the lore. As has been point out numerous times in this thread Witch Elves dont stealth. They dont. period, end of story. So giving it to them just to make the stealth crowd happy gets put into the needlessly stupid bin along with things like no female Marauders/Chosen, including male Sorcerers JUST because some unwitting Artist dreamed up some ultra cool art for it, and.......a few other select things I will refrain from mentioning. :rolleyes: If you want to play a stealth class then you play WoW or DAoC because I was always under the impression Mythic wasnt going to kowtow and stick to their guns about this point.

But if stealth is to be included in WAR then it should have to WAIT for the inclusion of stealth appropriate units to also be included like the Dark Elf Assassin, Skaven Assassin, Gutter Runner tunneling teams or Chameleon Skinks. Giving stealth to Witch Elves also cheapens how special of an ability stealth is for the units that REALLY have it in the lore. This also opens the door to attach stealth to other non appropriate classes like the Shadow Warrior and whatever other classes they can dream up a weak backstory for.

Doing things like this for no good reason shows Mythic is obviously more interested in making WAR as popular as it can be regardless of what it will do to the lore.......which is sad.

[Discotheque]

One isn't always locked into combat!

Yes, but then again you could just sprint away. If you werent in combat it probably means you were not in range, in which case you are simply running away from the fight - which you should theoretically be able to do.


Dukha, you say that a witch elf would become unkillable.. how hard is it for a RDPS to keep running behind the witch elf spamming instant cast DoTs or spells. Also, if you read what i wrote it suggests making the opener a snare.

[Hoodwink]

What stealth crowd is Mythic giving in to?

My general feeling from pretty much every venue is that most people are indifferent about stealth and there are very few that actually want it implemented.

I chalk this up to laziness or lack of creativity.

[Ralzar]

My general feeling from pretty much every venue is that most people are indifferent about stealth and there are very few that actually want it implemented.

Not to mention that having no stealth has been one of the design decisions that have drawn players toward WAR.

[Estebar]

The problem is this almost symbiotic relationship between Witch Hunter and Witch Elf which is produced through the class mirroring we all now know is obviously going on.

Following on from a post (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=736141#post736141) I just made out over in the Empire forum about whether or not the Witch Hunters should get stealth, you really just have to consider how the devs are choosing to portray these two melee types.

With regards to the Witch Hunters, there are two distinctly different types of Witch Hunter existing in Warhammer lore:

The typically fanatical Sigmarite, screaming "burn the witch" amongst the mob whilst publically lighting up innocent old ladies on massive pyres of flame. Feared by the vast majority, very much the public face of god-fearing Sigmarites all across the Empire, though particularly in the more rural provinces.

The cold, menacing, shadowy infiltrator of Chaos cults, like Karl Hoche (http://www.blacklibrary.com/product.asp?prod=60100299046&type=Book) from the Mark series, bringing down heretics from within their own organisations, stalking the streets of the Empire and sewers beneath, ruthlessly hunting down all suspected Chaos-worshippers. Feared by most, though only known by a few. Considering the overtly zealous, screaming Sigmarite-type is already covered among the classes by the Warrior Priest (and mobs of witch-fearing Empire NPC's I imagine) it would make sense for the devs to pursue the second type of Witch Hunter for WAR - the stealthy one who, frankly, seems a lot cooler...at least from an Empire-players point of view like my own. It distinguishes the Sigmar-worshipping classes in a way which makes me feel a lot more satisfied with their four choices of Empire PC's.

...HOWEVER, this does mean that there is a risk of the Witch Elf being dragged down into this stealthy aspect too. Although, you could also see the devs considering two distinctly different types of Witch Elf:

The typical, overtly fanatical Bride of Khaine who froths at the mouth, waves poisoned blades around wildly and screams the 1,000 names and aspects of Khaine incessantly while losing herself to the sheer power of murder incarnate possessing her intoxicated body.

The sinister but beautiful night-stalker of Naggaroth's streets on Death Night, prowling in the darkness to murder, maim and steal children away, while spending her "off-days" ruthlessly hunting down Slaaneshi heretics whereever they might be hiding. There is actually a piece of lore, a short story, set on Death Night where a male Dark Elf warrior, stupidly outside and alone on Khaine's sacred night, encounters a pair of Witch Elves stalking the streets. They don't scream and rave, despite completely drugged up. The Dark Elf actually notes that despite their attempts to charm him, their eyes were wild, blood-shot, and predatory.

They lure him in using their own beauty and sexual voluptuousness, actually offering him the choice of either willingly walking back to the Temple with them for a night of indescribable pleasure followed by several nights of indescribable pain, or a death right then and there on the streets. When he wisely refuses their "generous" offer, that's when they pounce on him like wild animals.

It might be that they're hoping to promote this kind of Witch Elf in WAR. What with the Disciple already taking up the overt "Warrior Priest" type representation of Khaine, the devs could instead be treating their Witch Elves as beautiful, subtle stalkers who only show their true ferocity when they decide to pounce on you. Especially now that, thanks to the Disciple, it looks like the Assassin doesn't really exist anymore.

But, when it comes to true stealth, such as invisibility, I just can't see it working for the Witch Elves, at least not in the same way I can see it working for the Witch Hunters. So, for now, I'm going to stand on an uncertain Maybe on the subject, and see what kind of stealth they decide to implement into these two classes...if any.

[WastedTrojan]

Witch Elf stealth sounds sexy. But seriously the death night sounds like a religious holiday so that would be outside the norm for a witch elf. It can't be christmas every day. The Witch Elves that i always heard about were the insane, bloodthirsty, screaming fanatical kind that are so hyped for battle that the thought of silence never crosses their mind.

I am extremely opposed to witch elves having the option of being permanently invisible. If it is implimented in a different way from the normal maybe it would be ok. If it is a very short duration, like 30-45 seconds and doesn't have any opening moves that do massive amounts of damage and has a several minute cooldown than I would be ok with it.

[Xurré]

You know, I’ve never seen Death night as a silent holiday with Witch Elves sneaking quietly through the city streets to surprise their victims. Quite the opposite in fact. Death Night is their night, on this night they own the city and every living soul within it. I see them boldly marching through the streets, doing whatever they want, laughing out loud and making lots of noise, breaking into any place they desire and dragging anyone they want screaming with them. If anything, on Death Night Witch Elves are likely to be at their loudest (outside of actual combat).

Some quotes to support this:

“...until Death Night comes round once more and Dark Elves hide in their homes, listening to the revelry and evil laughter of the midnight celebrations of the Witch Elves.”

“For ten long sleepless hours, the Dark Elves would cower in their homes, listening to the screams as the Witch Elves draffed their captives away.”

There are more quotes regarding Death Night and they all speak of the Witch Elves celebrating, of them taking whatever they come across (instead of stalking prey and sneaking up on specific targets). To be honest I see Witch Elves during Death Night more like a gang of drunken teenagers roaming the city seeking trouble than as stalkers sneaking up on victims. For the Witch Elves this night is a feast, a time of merriment at the cost of the other Druchii.

This image of “The sinister but beautiful night-stalker of Naggaroth's streets on Death Night, prowling in the darkness to murder, maim and steal children away, while spending her "off-days" ruthlessly hunting down Slaaneshi heretics whereever they might be hiding.” simply doesn’t fit with Witch Elves at all. That sounds more like someone trying (and failing) to make sense of EA Mythic’s absurd direction with the class.


- Xurré

[Estebar]

This image of “The sinister but beautiful night-stalker of Naggaroth's streets on Death Night, prowling in the darkness to murder, maim and steal children away, while spending her "off-days" ruthlessly hunting down Slaaneshi heretics whereever they might be hiding.” simply doesn’t fit with Witch Elves at all. That sounds more like someone trying (and failing) to make sense of EA Mythic’s absurd direction with the class. Wow, Xurré. Excuse me for trying to be a little diplomatic here. I'm staying open-minded. You're acting like a stubborn, close-minded bully and I really don't have to put up with you being that rude to me. I don't think I deserved that at all.

I'm just saying that there is a particular piece of GW lore which gave the Witch Elves a quality I hadn't considered before. I was demonstrating the kind of direction Mythic might be taking their Witch Elf class in despite your preconceptions on what the Witch Elf should be about based on all previous depictions of them.

Nothing is set in stone yet on what a Witch Elf can or can't do as a class in WAR. I just felt like flexing my imagination a little, because that's what I feel a forum should be for. You might think about trying it some time, considering your ratio of imaginative imput vs. instant rejection and public discouragement of other people's ideas based on your fondness for everything a Witch Elf has been before WAR is more than slightly out-of-balance.

[Xurré]

Wow, Xurré. Excuse me for trying to be a little diplomatic here. I'm staying open-minded. You're acting like a stubborn, close-minded bully and I really don't have to put up with you being that rude to me. I don't think I deserved that at all.
Where the hell did that come from?

You made a suggestion and I commented on that suggestion. No need for personal attacks here.

I just felt like flexing my imagination a little
Flexing imagination is fine, but at this point I feel that imagination has been flexed way too much already by EA Mythic. Let's get the basis right first before people start flexing their imaginations.


- Xurré

[Estebar]

Where the hell did that come from?

Right there. *points down* I'm trying to be creative and you're telling me I'm simply failing at justifying Mythics decisions.

That sounds more like someone trying (and failing) to make sense of EA Mythic’s absurd direction with the class. What the hell kind of imput is that about my post? There isn't even any acknowledgement of the short story I brought up. That's just a straight-out "No, rejected, failure" which shouldn't be the way things are discussed on these forums.

Flexing imagination is fine, but at this point I feel that imagination has been flexed way too much already by EA Mythic. Let's get the basis right first before people start flexing their imaginations. We know the basis. Everyone knows the Warhammer lore foundation by now. Especially the Witch Elf lore. And of course we know where you stand on it. The basis is there, but we have to move away from it now. Mythic has, and so should we, and since the next set-in-stone point is knowing for sure how the classes are implemented in-game, we're not there just yet so for now, we could...oh, I don't know...start enjoying ourselves and think outside the box for a bit? Maybe grow creatively from that basis you were talking about?

[Sinfjotle]

We know the basis. Everyone knows the Warhammer lore foundation. Especially the Witch Elf lore. And of course we know where you stand on it. The basis is there, but we have to move away from it now. Mythic has, and so should we, and since the next set-in-stone point is knowing for sure how the classes are implemented in-game, we're not there just yet so for now, we could...oh, I don't know...start enjoying ourselves and think outside the box for a bit? Maybe grow creatively from that basis you were talking about?

In other words: Justify Mythic's decision for them.

[Xurré]

We know the basis. Everyone knows the Warhammer lore foundation. Especially the Witch Elf lore. And of course we know where you stand on it. The basis is there, but we have to move away from it now. Mythic has, and so should we, and since the next set-in-stone point is knowing for sure how the classes are implemented in-game, we're not there just yet so for now, we could...oh, I don't know...start enjoying ourselves and think outside the box for a bit? Maybe grow creatively from that basis you were talking about?
You can't explain the unexplainable. Otherwise we might as well argue that up is down and red is green. Since EA Mythic's version of the lore doesn't make any sense, next to completely breaking with the flavor and the style of the Warhammer setting, there is no way to make sense of creativity within their version of the setting either. We can all be full of unbridled creativity, but if the canvas is torn then the painting isn't going to come out no matter how masterful your strokes are.

If you're already blindly accepting what EA Mythic is doing with the setting then there is really nothing to talk about. As for me, I'm more than willing to listen to possible explanations for their twisted version of the lore. I don't think there is any explanation that can possibly make sense of it, but you're more than welcome to try and give one and I'm more than willing to listen.


As for the short story, I didn't want to break down your post into small parts like I usually do. In fact, I wasn't even directly responding to you, but to the general idea of Death Night showing Witch Elves to be sneaky rogues. So I really still don't have a clue why you're flying off the handle like that.

But to answer your concern, I don't recall having read such a story. I'd love to though (meaning, please tell me where you read that). Even so, from your description they don't sound at all like the stalking, prowling, sneaky rogues that EA Mythic is making them out to be. From your description it doesn't justify them as a rogue-ish class and even less justifies them getting stealth of any kind. If anything it is much more along the lines of the drunk teenagers analogy I made earlier.

Now, we can all be creative, but then I can also be creative and have a class of intelligent, insightful orcs and dark elves with two scimitars and a black panther who are really just 'misunderstood'. Any creativity needs to be within the bounds of the setting. And that's one thing EA Mythic seems to break with the dark elves again and again.

For the rest, really you're taking this way too strongly. Perhaps it might be advisable to take a step back from the forums and take a breath or two or ten before posting again.


- Xurré

[Ayetalam]

You can't explain the unexplainable. Otherwise we might as well argue that up is down and red is green. Since EA Mythic's version of the lore doesn't make any sense, next to completely breaking with the flavor and the style of the Warhammer setting, there is no way to make sense of creativity within their version of the setting either. We can all be full of unbridled creativity, but if the canvas is torn then the painting isn't going to come out no matter how masterful your strokes are.

If you're already blindly accepting what EA Mythic is doing with the setting then there is really nothing to talk about. As for me, I'm more than willing to listen to possible explanations for their twisted version of the lore. I don't think there is any explanation that can possibly make sense of it, but you're more than welcome to try and give one and I'm more than willing to listen.


As for the short story, I didn't want to break down your post into small parts like I usually do. In fact, I wasn't even directly responding to you, but to the general idea of Death Night showing Witch Elves to be sneaky rogues. So I really still don't have a clue why you're flying off the handle like that.

But to answer your concern, I don't recall having read such a story. I'd love to though (meaning, please tell me where you read that). Even so, from your description they don't sound at all like the stalking, prowling, sneaky rogues that EA Mythic is making them out to be. From your description it doesn't justify them as a rogue-ish class and even less justifies them getting stealth of any kind. If anything it is much more along the lines of the drunk teenagers analogy I made earlier.

Now, we can all be creative, but then I can also be creative and have a class of intelligent, insightful orcs and dark elves with two scimitars and a black panther who are really just 'misunderstood'. Any creativity needs to be within the bounds of the setting. And that's one thing EA Mythic seems to break with the dark elves again and again.

For the rest, really you're taking this way too strongly. Perhaps it might be advisable to take a step back from the forums and take a breath or two or ten before posting again.


- Xurré

Its not breaking the Warhammer setting, its breaking the fluff on the Witch Elves and the Temple. Thats not the Warhammer setting. Thats like 5 lines of it.

[Dukha]

Dukha, you say that a witch elf would become unkillable.. how hard is it for a RDPS to keep running behind the witch elf spamming instant cast DoTs or spells. Also, if you read what i wrote it suggests making the opener a snare.
Regarding RDPS I don't know, that will depend on their range. RDPS careers may well mess up the tactic I proposed. And I did not say that you would always reapply a powerfull finisher, if no such ability exists then that option won't exist.
And "unkillable" is of course stretching it but I virtually garantue that the tactic I outlined would attract plenty of whining and demands for nerf as it would be percieved as overpowered by those not capable of countering it.

[mongoose]

Its not breaking the Warhammer setting, its breaking the fluff on the Witch Elves and the Temple. Thats not the Warhammer setting. Thats like 5 lines of it.

While it might not be the entire WH setting it most certainly IS breaking off the Witch Elf corner of it.

Witch Elves are always portrayed as crazed fighters throwing themselves into battle and not sneaking about on the back lines silently picking off the enemy. So Mythics possible 'addition' is definitely rewriting what the Witch Elves are all about.

And while some can sit there and try to justify it there really is none and we ALL know it so please stop trying to fool yourselves. Mythic is deliberately mutating the Witch Elf into a rogue class to appeal to the fair percentage of the population that enjoys sneaking about. I dont know if this was through a possible outcry from the beta testers but as we have seen with other recent changes (like the Runepriest and Zealot becoming primary back of the pack healers, something Mythic ALSO said they would never do) Mythic is unfortunately caving on a number of things they told us would NEVER be a part of WAR and this might be the reason.

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

I just want to add my fervent

NO.


Please Jacobs, don't do it.

[Zeldias]

I wouldn't die if Witch Elves got stealth, but I've gotta say that I think they're certainly not the right choice for it in terms of lore. I wouldn't mind if Witch Elves (and by extension, Witch Hunters) got some "teleport" type of attack that was described as an extremely fast rush due to their religious fervor, but I just don't want to see stealth for Witch Elves. It could work for Witch Hunters, but I'd rather see both of these classes as being religious berserkers as opposed to religious assassins.

[dynamo112]

I just want to add my fervent

NO.


Please Jacobs, don't do it.

Hate to burst your bubble but Witch Elfs as well as Witch Hunters are getting stealth. It's called Ambush.

Carry on.

[svartalfimposter]

Hate to burst your bubble but Witch Elfs as well as Witch Hunters are getting stealth. It's called Ambush.

Carry on.

/extreme disappointment

[Gorrr]

Witch elves should get some sorta mad- ninja flips and jumps for some quick transportation/ escape... no stealth.

They are freaking raging berserkers, they wouldn't stealth.

[svartalfimposter]

Witch elves should get some sorta mad- ninja flips and jumps for some quick transportation/ escape... no stealth.

They are freaking raging berserkers, they wouldn't stealth.

Witch hunters shouldn't get stealth either, it's not like they sneak around to Mrs Miggins and watch her for doing witch-like things. They stride boldly into town and demand the witch be brought before them.

[Gorrr]

Witch hunters shouldn't get stealth either, it's not like they sneak around to Mrs Miggins and watch her for doing witch-like things. They stride boldly into town and demand the witch be brought before them.

I don't think i ever heard of them getting stealth tho... and yeah , i agree, no stealth for witch hunters too. Based on descriptions of their masteries... they are probably a semi-fast mostly melee unit... i d compare them with Assasins from Guild Wars but with other "bonues" and no shadowstep.

[StazI]

Just saw a video about WE RvR and it got me a bit worried. The player in video died a lot but wasnt able to kill anyone. =/ =/ Wont link the video cos it might be against NDA.

[Xcenon]

Which Elves, dont stealth. Period. :p

As much as i like the idea of stealth, i dont think it suits the Witch Elf class.

[Karandor]

my guess is that it is implemented in a limited way in order to let these 2 fragile classes get at the casters.

WE seems to be a melee DPS glass cannon. The WH is probably the same. The videos I've seen of a choppa are that they can take a fair bit of punishment but thier DPS is not as high as a wizard. SO what if you had melee DPS like a nuker and were resistant to magic but very vulnerable to melee. It was said in a video that the swordmaster is very good against magic and less so vs melee where as the ironbreaker is the opposite. It is probable all the other classes are similar in design.

Now if WE and WH are very vulnrable to melee they need a way to get past the frontline. A short duration stealth would work very well. In the WE's case I'd rather see some sort of speed/evasion buff that only works out of combat and breaks when you start attacking. The choppa has an in-combat charge style ability that gives them a nice speed boost. Maybe that could be a big difference in melee DPS. WE and WH can get to that squishy target quick and kill it but unless really supported get demolished where a choppa or maurader or hammerer have to work a bit more to get to what target they want but can stay alive a long time and have great mobility to switch targets.

[Gretha]

They are freaking raging berserkers, they wouldn't stealth.

correct.
They fight just like cats.
Not the lurking kind.
More the Wirlwind of fur and claws that leaves a path of destruction in your livingroom.


Its a mater of clichés.
In most Fantasy settings the one who doesn't were bulky armore is a rogue/thief/spy whatever if he use knives or a barbarian if he use a big axe.

So everyone who didn't know what a witch elf is woudn't doubt that they are suitable for sneaking around. Because she doesen't use heavy weapons like the Marauder.

[Morag]

Just saw a video about WE RvR and it got me a bit worried. The player in video died a lot but wasnt able to kill anyone. =/ =/ Wont link the video cos it might be against NDA.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make a post claiming something like this after seeing that video.

First of all, that video has been floating around for a little while now. If you actually paid attention to it then you would have realized the WE player is fighting 3+ people at a time, by themself. They should lose and they shouldn't be able to kill anyone.

In the parts where a couple destruction players are fighting a couple order players it should be obvious that the order players are playing much better as a team since they are actually healing themselves. The destruction guys are just letting their team die for the most part.

Lastly, it's beta. There is a reason there is a NDA right now. It's because of videos like this. The game is not balanced and even if you had watched a video of a WE losing a bunch of 1 on 1 fights I would still tell you not to take it seriously.

[Grimald]

Could someone link me the place where all this official stealth talk is? I've been away for awhile so i've missed alot of talk on whats happening with WaR.

Thanks.

[Zoatibix]

Nah, mate. This is one of them April Fool's threads, innit?

Witch Elves with stealth? I can't believe anybody fell for that. :shock:

[Dukha]

Ah one can only hope. Unfortunately if it IS a big joke it's been planned for atleast a few weeks, if not longer.

[Axxar]

Nah, mate. This is one of them April Fool's threads, innit?

Witch Elves with stealth? I can't believe anybody fell for that. :shock:Checking the date of the original post should tell you a lot.

[Xurré]

I think Zoaty is just visiting a river in Egypt. ;)


- Xurré

[Forge]

now how many of you understand
M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 5 4 3 3 1 6 1 8
SPECIAL RULES
poisoned attacks
frenzy
devotees of khaine

Not many thought so. i have to agree with xurre on everything he has said so far.
I used to run a Temple of Khaine dark elf army and to see the witch elf lore cast aside is really sad, whats next khorne will have mages. cold one knights will ride bunnys

frenzy
certain warriors can work themselves into a frenzy a whirlwind of destruction in which all concern for personal safty is ignored in favour of mindless violence

[Speedy]

Wow, I can't believe I missed this! Perhaps this happened when I 'converted' from a Witch Elf to a Disciple? Well, I was going to roll one anyway, as I love the mechanic(well, based on what we learned so far) but I guess I ignored these WE forums for too long? o.o"

I hate stealth. Even in WoW, when I rolled a rogue, I avoided using Stealth whenever I could. Honestly, if there was some sort of sprint/leap/etc that included a banshee yell or something along those lines that got you into combat quickly while increasing your ability to dodge long-range attacks, that would be ideal. Why do you need stealth when you can alert the enemy you are coming, just to see his visage change from one of mirth or confidence to a much more glorious sight; scared to the point of pissing his paints.

Goddamn, why do I love 'healing' so much? >=(

[Speedy]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jplz7_Fyi64

Sorry for the double post, but I got this from my guild's site. If you watch the video, you see the "stealth" that is in beta.

[Xurré]

Seen that already, but thanks anyway.

<still hoping that EA Mythic will come to their senses and remove stealth altogether>


- Xurré

[Gretha]

Seen that already, but thanks anyway.

<still hoping that EA Mythic will come to their senses and remove stealth altogether>
- Xurré


Well, I'm not that fit with the darkelf lore but.
wouldn't it be more gracefully , if they want to implement Stealth,
to make the assassin the MDPS career and let the witch do to melee healing?

Kind of "battlescreams that motivates allys to keep fighting (reg HP) if they don't want to get slaughtered as well"

It would be a castrated version of powerfull TT Model just like the choosen one or the arcmage.
But not such a radical step as a sneaking Fury and the new discoverd disciple.

At the other Hand.....
Darkelfs would have the Ninja and the Chainmailbikini class , theres no way how we could end up with a balances server-population

[Hoodwink]

Darkelfs would have the Ninja and the Chainmailbikini class , theres no way how we could end up with a balances server-population

Seriously, chain mail bikinis aren't nearly as popular as people think they are.

Can't argue with you on the Ninjas though. :)

[Xurré]

Well, I'm not that fit with the darkelf lore but.
wouldn't it be more gracefully , if they want to implement Stealth,
to make the assassin the MDPS career and let the witch do to melee healing?
Witch Elves healing is worse than them stealthing. Though probably not as bad as them stealthing combined with having another Khaine-based class as the healer.


- Xurré

[abr4]

Only because you're so opposed to Khaine based healing.

I'd rather see the Witch Elves heal then stealth because then you could keep them in line with the more prominent fluff and the things that would have to change would be stuff that is more in the background of the background (yeah that sounded stupid >_> ).

[Gretha]

Witch Elves healing is worse than them stealthing. Though probably not as bad as them stealthing combined with having another Khaine-based class as the healer.



Who said you gona heal in the name of Khain?
You will kill them single handed if they dare to die. :p

Keep them fighting, without the carrot but with the stick :wink:


EDIT:
You know, more the maniac style
"the weak don't deserve to get spared, bettern don't show the Witch elfes that you aren't usefull anymore after you sufferd -5000 HP"
"If they stand above you with foam at the mouth ...GET UP AN KEEP FIGHTING, or you will end as chief ingredient for a "Blood bath"

Okay ok, I was just loud thinking

[Swanie]

Stealth is in its in a new Paris Games day video. Its not bad though not OP at all. You can probably only saty stay stealthed for about 1 minute or maybe less, it constantly drains AP by 1% someone said so as a Witch Elf you wont be stealthed very often only to get into position. It is nothing like the WoW rogue.

[abr4]

It's the simple fact that you are able to stealth that pisses alot of people off here and rightfully so. It doesn't matter to what degree you can stealth, nor is it about stealth as a mechanic. It's that Witch Elves and stealth don't fit no matter what way you're going to put it .

[Swanie]

Edited for being dumb.

[abr4]

First of all:

Yes it is lorebreaking.

Secondly:

Where did you first here about Witch Elves that you can imagine them stealthy? oO

That's just mind boggling.

[Swanie]

Edited for not thinking this through

[Avathos]

stealth rimes with witch elf...


just my 2 cents

[abr4]

It is also an MMO that needs to bend lore and honestly its not like WE are rogues from WoW they get less then a minute stealth so they can enter the fight. It need to be done or else they would've got destroyed before even entering the battle.

Thing is, if they felt Witch Elves needed stealth so badly, why not use Assassins instead of Witch Elves? No need for lorebending although I wouldn't call WE with stealth lorebending anymore, that's just outright lorebreaking.

[Loekii]

Not knowing the mechanic, are we sure it is a 'stealth', and not simply an 'evasion' type of tactic?

The video simply takes the color out of the toon, rather than making them invisible. You can clearly see and follow the toon, even at a distance.

So to me, I think it is more a form of 'evasion', than 'invisibility'.

[Dukha]

Stealth is in its in a new Paris Games day video. Its not bad though not OP at all. You can probably only saty stay stealthed for about 1 minute or maybe less, it constantly drains AP by 1% someone said so as a Witch Elf you wont be stealthed very often only to get into position. It is nothing like the WoW rogue.Oh great! Then we can stop worrying. Phew!
I wonder when Xurre will start spazzing about Witch Elves and Stealth. I doubt she will. Unless you define spazzing as carrying on argumenting an issue in a civil manner using proper grammar and clearly defined arguments, but if thats the case then she spazzed out long ago on this issue.
Its all personal preference about Witch Elves and stealth I always imagined them being stealthy along with Witch Hunters and less then 1 minute of stealth isnt very lore breaking IMHO.On the lore aspect I will give the "Yes to stealth" people the following. Witch Elfs are unfortunately the most suited candidate on the Destruction side simply because it's a tactic employed by clever people and witches are smarter than both Choppas and Marauders combined :p
It's still strange and odd!
EDIT: However they are NOT smarter than an orc while frenzying and they frenzy while fighting so that adds to the oddness.
It need to be done or else they would've got destroyed before even entering the battle.
Really? There is no other way to solve it? Of course there is, there are plenty of ways that don't include a watered down version of stealth. Charges or speed boosts are just two examples. Besides, shouldnt Warrior priests and Disciples get stealth as well then? After all they need to be in melee as well to do their job so they should get destroyed as well.

EDIT: One line connected with the second quote made absolutely no sense, sorry if anyone read it and went "wtf?". Hopefully thats changed now...

[Xurré]

It is also an MMO that needs to bend lore and honestly its not like WE are rogues from WoW they get less then a minute stealth so they can enter the fight. It need to be done or else they would've got destroyed before even entering the battle.
People are way too ready to break lore without even thinking of alternate solutions which stay within the lore. For the rest, you seriously need to start reading the thread because it seem to me you don't even have a clue as to what problems people actually have with the ability, the way you keep hammering on how it's unlike the WoW rogue and all.

But seriously if this makes anyone mad and people start saying Mythic is destroying Warhammer lore and won't play the game because people are stealthed for freakin 50 seconds, then there is clearly no way to please people. I'm not saying you just a general statement
I don't believe that there have been that many that said they wouldn't play the game because of this; there have been a lot who have said they wouldn't play the class because of it and I can imagine that people might even not play the dark elves because of it, but few have said they'd not play the game because of it. After all, that has never accomplished anything.

And there are ways to please people: EA Mythic using abilities which accomplish the same goal but actually fit within the lore.



Not knowing the mechanic, are we sure it is a 'stealth', and not simply an 'evasion' type of tactic?
Yes, we're sure. Though they'll likely call it something different like "Prowling" (like the WoW druid stealth skill) for instance. :roll:


- Xurré

[Squizz]

TBH the stealth mechanic sounds pretty fair and I did enjoy playing my wow rogue/eq assassin but that doesn't mean I'm not against it in this case. I can deal with it if the mechanic is implemented at launch but the assassination of the witch elves character is a pill I cannot swallow, I've said it before and I'll say it again, you would be more likely to see a black orc stealthing (or trying to atleast) then a witch elf, hell even a choppa would probably consider it for longer then a witch elf.
Solving the stealth issue is as simple as giving the witch elf a charge skill... you can even add an increase parry chance buff to that if a simple charge won't suffice. I'm sure Mythic have considered this but given in to the crowd demanding stealth. Shame on you Mythic... shame on you.

[Austric]

A video was found showing Witch Hunters being able to stealth. I can only assume that the Witch Elf will be the Destruction Stealth class :(

http://trailer.onlinewelten.com/videos,id3490,warhammer_online_szenarien_pvp_press e_event_paris.html

[Xurré]

A video was found showing Witch Hunters being able to stealth. I can only assume that the Witch Elf will be the Destruction Stealth class :(

http://trailer.onlinewelten.com/videos,id3490,warhammer_online_szenarien_pvp_press e_event_paris.html
Look further up in this thread; someone has already posted a video of a Witch Elf stealthing. And yes, that's a contradiction in term.


- Xurré

[Zeldias]

Weighing in, I'd like to scream to the rooftops that I'm totally in support of Xurre on this one. Witch Elves are berserkers, and berserkers don't sneak. Heck, I figured their detaunt would be some kind of maniacal scream that would cause the target to not want to hit them because they're freaking NUTS.

Witch Elf = hardcore berserker slaughter-machine. I'm talking about howling in the sky, leaping through the air with a pair of knives and a ululating battle cry, and stabbing people in the arteries so they can dance in the blood spray like a morning shower on a good day. There is no hiding, there is no sneakiness. If Witch Elves robbed people, they wouldn't sneak in through a window; they would kick down the door, kill all the residents, then run screaming into the neighbor's house and continue the process until everyone else is dead or they are.

There is no stealth in Witch Elf.

I'd much rather see Charge + Evasion mechanics or something. Anything other than sneaking about. And the same goes for Witch Hunters. It's more plausible for me to think of them sneaking, but I really think they're more likely to stride into town, call someone a mutant, then burn the guy. And if you disagree, you get shot in the mouth and burned.

Seriously. I normally even play stealth classes, but I just think it's truly ill-suited to these classes lore. It almost makes them seem timid in nature. And just taking one look at how either dresses (Especially Witch Elves), they damn sure ain't timid.

[Swanie]

I would like to start out by saying this is not sarcasm.

I don't know what the hell I was talking about earlier, you guys are totally right. I've thought about it and the old way of closing the distance seemed perfect if it wasn't there had to be some kind of alternative such as an speed bonus when in combat or something. I love Mythic but I think they just got lazy and just said screw it give them stealth.

For a Witch Hunter I think it would be ALRIGHT simply because Witch Hunters are normal Humans not elves so jumping 50 feet into combat is a little much, even then however I'm sure there is something they could have come p with.

For Witch Elves your totally right stealth for them is just dumb, a perfectly good alternative would be a simple charge ability, which would make sense for them so they could get straight into the fight without jumping 50 feet in the air.

I apologize for not think all this through earlier you all have the right to be concerned.

This won't ruin the game for me and won't make me think any less of it but it does make me kind of go Wth?

Xurre is totally spot on with this one.

[abr4]

lol ok

From Saulus to Paulus as we say in Germany ^^

[Speedy]

Look further up in this thread; someone has already posted a video of a Witch Elf stealthing. And yes, that's a contradiction in term.


- Xurré

I added it because it did seem relative to the thread. Sorry it wasn't new to you, Xurre'. My only question is why are they going back on their word and adding "stealth" water-downed or not, when they specifically said they would never add such a mechanic in the game. Ever.

[Veriag]

Looks like we're going to have to live with this modified version of a poor design decision. As previously stated I just hope this is not the only 'Closing' option that they have given the WE.

Something that worries me a bit too is the execution of skills and attacks still look very slow and ponderous on the WE. I hope this is just unfamiliar palyers rather than a deliberate timelapse in skills execution.

[Grimald]

Maybe its them just tweaking the lore again since remember its not based in the universe we know, its a modified version. But i am against giving Witch Elves any kind of stealth, if they wanted to make a stealthy character then the obvious choice was an assassin and allow female assassins i think tthat would be a more acceptable break in lore other than having witch elves who have always been berserking slaughterers not sneaky killers.

[Rowhin]

For starters, let me point out that I am as opposed as all the others to Witch Elves having stealth for obvious lore breaking. I agree that they could have put Assassins if they wanted to go in that direction. But...obviously they changed their mind about stealth during development, as I can hardly imagine that they planned to do so while telling us there would be no stealth.
So we can assume that by the time they changed their mind about stealth, Witch Elf character models/animations/concept arts etc. were already done, maybe Witch Elf had even already been confirmed as a class. How would we have reacted if they told us they were changing Witch Elf for Assassin? Same for the other Destruction melee classes. So they had the option of giving stealth to the Choppa (yeah, right), the Marauder (hm...) or the Witch Elf (hell no). There simply was no class to give stealth to.

Edit: I'm not justifying giving stealth to Witch Elves, just pointing out possible reasons why they didn't make an Assassin class in the first place.

[Xurré]

For starters, let me point out that I am as opposed as all the others to Witch Elves having stealth for obvious lore breaking. I agree that they could have put Assassins if they wanted to go in that direction. But...obviously they changed their mind about stealth during development, as I can hardly imagine that they planned to do so while telling us there would be no stealth.
So we can assume that by the time they changed their mind about stealth, Witch Elf character models/animations/concept arts etc. were already done, maybe Witch Elf had even already been confirmed as a class. How would we have reacted if they told us they were changing Witch Elf for Assassin? Same for the other Destruction melee classes. So they had the option of giving stealth to the Choppa (yeah, right), the Marauder (hm...) or the Witch Elf (hell no). There simply was no class to give stealth to.

Edit: I'm not justifying giving stealth to Witch Elves, just pointing out possible reasons why they didn't make an Assassin class in the first place.
I realize the reasons they didn't make an Assassin in the first place and gave stealth to the Witch Elf instead. In fact, those very reasons are (part of) the reasons why they shouldn't put stealth in now. At some point they were dedicated to not having stealth in. This led to their decision in which classes to put in. They then did a lot of work on those classes. You can't then just turn around and say "hey, let's put stealth in anyway" because any developer truly serious about the quality of their game would then go back to the point where they originally decided not to put stealth in and redo everything from that point onward. Since that's obviously not an option, stealth is obviously not an option in this game.


- Xurré

[abr4]

Reminds me of this:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3568/a_human_work_denis_dyack_on_what_.php?page=3

"Right. Yeah, the thing that people would probably argue is that often you do find, as you're developing stuff, is that, "Hey! This works better! And this... I didn't realize that it was going to be so well suited to this," or, "This doesn't work at all." But, indeed, ideally, if we could figure more of that stuff our earlier... "

DD: "It's not a matter of making things out early. So here's my dilemma: I face those decisions all the time. As a director, when something like that comes up, it's my job to say, "OK, we thought X was gonna work. X clearly doesn't work." That happens all the time; I'm not trying to push this utopia where X should always work. That's a joke. Anyone that does video games knows that that won't work.

So then you're stuck with Y. And you know that Y works, everyone loves Y, but instead of saying, "Y is now going to change our direction all the way over to here," as a director, my job is to say, "OK, it's Y now; how does Y fit into the direction?" How do I turn that back in, to make this the original vision that it was supposed to be?

And if there's a point in time where you're so off, if you're trying to go to here, and you ended up being over there, I think you really have to say, "Should we kill this project?" And that doesn't happen very often in our industry. You get these sort of random, sometimes it works out, most of the time it doesn't."

[Guardian]

I voted for "No, they should absolutely not get stealth".

As far as I've understod it Witch Elves are all about running straight at the enemy screaming and cutting them to piece...

[Dukha]

Just check the official description ;)
In all honesty I've started to check back just expecting them to change it one of these days :rolleyes:

[Demerit]

Something that worries me a bit too is the execution of skills and attacks still look very slow and ponderous on the WE. I hope this is just unfamiliar palyers rather than a deliberate timelapse in skills execution.

Some of the videos with melee have been less than inspiring to me also. I just watched a WH video from the convention (kinda painful to watch for other reasons) and his attacks just didn't appear to have any power behind them. And sometimes unless he is doing some type of spin or something or using his gun, I couldn't really tell the difference between his auto-attack and his abilities and they were a bit slow to boot.

It's understandable to expect that from beta but I would have hoped that the convention game with all its flashy effects and stuff would have removed some of the placeholder anims (if they really are). An interview on Eurogamer with Jeff said they were going to try and get the "feel" right with this latest delay so one can only hope. Maybe actually playing it would be different...

At some point they were dedicated to not having stealth in.

My only question is why are they going back on their word and adding "stealth" water-downed or not, when they specifically said they would never add such a mechanic in the game. Ever.

I think their big design flaw was that they underestimated the ability of players to preferentially pick targets. One person was saying since people will be engaging in battles all the time, that's where their focus would lie and that it wouldn't be too hard to sneak up on them. On paper that sounds feasible and sure enough once the heat of combat picks up, it happens in game from time to time. But it doesn't happen consistently and with the WE's skillset (from the design flaw), they were probably having some trouble closing that distance before getting targetted. Was stealth the best answer? Or just a band-aid fix? I don't develop games and with all the variables that go into it, I can't really make that call.

It seems to have its limits which is good game-wise but overall, yea, it kinda sucks to see it in for the WE.

[Xurré]

I think they're big design flaw was that they underestimated the ability of players to preferentially pick targets.
lol, if that's the case they have much bigger problems than the mere inclusion of stealth can hope to fix; if anything that's only going to make things much, much worse (don't underestimate the ability of players to abuse stealth no matter what limits you put to it).

Not understanding your players is probably the biggest mistake any game developer can make. And in this, including stealth, it seems to me that they really, really don't. Of course, they also don't seem to understand the lore they're supposed to work within or they wouldn't have given the ability to Witch Elves in the first place.


- Xurré