"Stealthy" Shadow warrior [Archive]

kaamos

02-02-2008, 06:06 AM

Greetings folk...

I know that mythic stated that there is no stealth in war and it would be little bad if they put it in the game after all. But, one idea had been lurking somewere in my mind for a while and i wanted to hear some opinions about it.
(Sorry if someone had said it before)

Shadow warrior would be invisible (or harder to spot) when he is outside of the maximum shooting range of the game.
That would bring whole new level for his scouting and could made class quite exiting (for me):D.

For the sake of the ambushing it could be that when sw is not moving this spotting range would decrease to half of its orginal lenght.

If shadow warrior happen to attack he will be visible immediately.
For this i could imagine mastery skill so that shadow warrior could attack and stay invisible but only a short amount of time (5 seconds maybe):rolleyes:

One (possible) problem i could imagine
Sw could move at his full speed while being invisible(when he is not in range)...Im not sure is that op

/Discuss

Snozzcumber

02-02-2008, 06:13 AM

I think this is a great idea /signed :)

Skwisgaar

02-02-2008, 06:16 AM

Shadow warrior would be invisible (or harder to spot) when he is outside of the maximum shooting range of the game.
That would bring whole new level for his scouting and could made class quite exiting (for me):D.

Begone please. There is NO need for stealth/blur/ANYTHING STEALTHY for that matter, it just gives too great an advantage to make it work proporly (only imbalanced combat moves on the other carrers could make up for it).

So please all you stealth guys, go play another MMO, and don't make mpre stealth threads.

kaamos

02-02-2008, 07:40 AM

Begone please. There is NO need for stealth/blur/ANYTHING STEALTHY for that matter, it just gives too great an advantage to make it work proporly (only imbalanced combat moves on the other carrers could make up for it).

So please all you stealth guys, go play another MMO, and don't make mpre stealth threads.

Well..I am not playing games for stealth so i am going to play this game anyway.

I made this thread because i have a feeling that sw don't resemble scout or master of guerrilla warfare right now as it has been presented. Actualy sw make as good scout as black orc because everypody can spot him as soon as possible.
And keep in mind this is not particulary stealth...I don't want to sneak in middle of the battle with sw, i want to suprise my opponents(not sneak close to them), you see, suprising is big part of the sw tactics in lore.

I highly doupt that we will see this in game but i want to hear what other ppl think about this...is it owerpowered, could it work, why it won't work, some more stuff that might make it work...speculation.
More opinions are welcome...just try to behave nicely. And i like to read reasons what make you think so.

Thanks

dahon

02-02-2008, 07:52 AM

kaamos

02-02-2008, 08:09 AM

Instead of giving other characters a smaller range to see the SW, why not just give the SW a longer range of view. That way he can see others before they see him and it doesn't involve any form of stealth. I don't want stealth

It could work, but it should be some kind of zoom ability. Sw could miss cool fog effects (or other stuff that hinder vision).

Also...I am fearing one conversation that might happen time to time:
What does you elven eyes see...Legolzz:D

ClownSt0pper

02-02-2008, 08:09 AM

c_vadnais

02-02-2008, 08:45 AM

using the terrain to hide is fine and will be something i expect to see people use, however, stealth is way too touchy of a mechanic to put in the game and balance. giving stealth to a class that can do ranged DPS is obsurd, if anything was going to get stealth it would be a melee DPS class, not a ranged DPS.

Its already safe to assume that shadow warriors are going to be very good at ranged DPS, if they gave them stealth that DPS would have to be nerfed and the point of the class would slowly diminish. While I respect and appreciate these attempts to find a balance for a stealth mechanic in WAR, I would appreciate it more if they would stop. Mythic said they wont do it, if they do I personally will lose a lot of respect for Mythic's change of opinion (I can only think of one class in the game that could even use stealth anyway and not be breaking lore completely).

I've played rogues and other stealth classes in many games, and in all those games the stealth mechanic was never balanced. There was always some ability or technique that could be exploited to a great affect (for example in WoW, a rogue that spec's properly can do over half the targets health, on average, in damage by using only 2 bleeds and a DoT poison. Things like this, while cool to do, are very overpowered when I can do that, vanish, and watch my target bleed to death helplessly.)

Loekii

02-02-2008, 09:45 AM

And what would the SW give up for this ability?

Personally, if there is any form of stealth, I am hoping it is not associated with either of the Elf races. It would just be another step towards the 'what not to do with elf classes in MMOs'.

Vit

02-02-2008, 10:15 AM

Biocide

02-02-2008, 10:37 AM

Your initial definition of this idea is rather incomplete. You mention that a SW would be invisible to people outside of the maximum shooting range in the game, yet you didn't specify if it was a ranged dps class, or that siege weapon sitting right by them. Had to point this out, rather irksome.

Anyway, the game will most likely render about 1.5 to 2 times the distance at which the maximum shooting range for a pc would be. The fact that a SW gets an extra 1/3 to 1/2 "invisibility" is rather moot imo, as there's not a whole lot of things you can do with that extra distance other than run away.

My main problem with the idea of persistant stealth (which is what you implied in both suggestions) is that it has to be incredibly nerfed to counteract the possibility of it being overpowered, or say the stealth is really powerful, your class needs to be nerfed to adjust to that. And when you do get that amazing position to rain death on the enemy, in order for your class to be balanced, you shouldn't do as much damage as other classes can do.

Here's the way it will play out without stealth. You're on a hilltop, say behind a rather large rock, waiting for the enemy to advance past you and attack your group. You pop out from behind the enemy (well within the limits your little stealth thingy does anyway) and use that ability that increases all of your damage for a short time, then lay waste with the full power of a ranged dps class, not the inferior damage of a stealth balanced dps class.

Baradun

02-02-2008, 11:02 AM

Jg117

02-02-2008, 11:09 AM

My thought has just been a general "hide" ability for every class. Its not stealth but if theres people running in your direction you can crouch down and hide from them but you can't attack and you dont get anything special for doing it, other than being not dead.

This is actually a tactical ability you can use in groups to ambush or what not but anyone who can scout at all would blatantly see its a trap and chances are there wouldn't be cover for more than 3 or 4 people to hide in.

Vit

02-02-2008, 11:45 AM

If one class gets stealth all should get it. find a shadow behind a rock or a building, hid in it and sneak about in the actual shadows, if you venture outside of the shadows path, your visible. if someone brushes up against you, your visible. dont get me started on stealth .either all or none should get it. and I dont see an Ironbreaker or Black orc being particularly stealthy...

In real world I could give sample of ninja.. he usually know better how to hide than others.
Stealth in the forest for some classes is good option.
Invisibility in open area is just stupid.
Huge red neon around your head screaming "I am here" isn't also cool.

I am for some kind of tactic elements of fights: ambushes, fast hits or raids.. etc..
FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT is just booooring.. earlier or later players will organize some awsome war events - good if they have some possibilities to do it.
For example short buff of SW which can delete huge neon above party heads during raid into enemy teritory.

Shadow Warrior Specialty (...) These strategies, when combined with the Shadow Warrior’s burning desire for vengeance, result in a potent offensive warrior capable of acting alone or as the scout for a larger group.

Zunjin

02-02-2008, 04:13 PM

I am for some kind of tactic elements of fights: ambushes, fast hits or raids.. etc..

I have also mention my liking for this idea in difference to stealth being invisibilty. But then it would obvisiouly be a skill that any class can use.

Browncoat-WHA

02-02-2008, 04:30 PM

I am afraid stealth will be somehow - better or worse way - implemented. It means you should find another MMO not others :)

And how do you know this? Please cite an official source not under the NDA to support your claims. Otherwise, this is filed under speculation and you should make a disclaimer indicating that.

Folks, on a general note, please refrain from making definitive statements such as the above and cite sources when appropriate so we don't have any confusion. If the source you cite here, however, is under NDA or is not official, well...I hope I wouldn't have to tell you that isn't allowed and will be dealt with.

Just a reminder.

Shalaa

02-02-2008, 05:23 PM

I don't care what cowardly tactics Shadow Warriors use. All ninja wannabes will have a reserved spot in my couldron :mrgreen:

Kaeldor

02-02-2008, 06:06 PM

I don't care what cowardly tactics Shadow Warriors use. All ninja wannabes will have a reserved spot in my couldron :mrgreen:
You are getting it all wrong we are Legolas wannabes, jez.

Shalaa

02-02-2008, 06:08 PM

You are getting it all wrong we are Legolas wannabes, jez.

/faints

A HE with a sense of humour :p:-D

Kaeldor

02-02-2008, 06:28 PM

/faints

A HE with a sense of humour :p:-D

We shadow warriors are shunned from the rest of high elf society for a reason >.>

But in earnest, to your original comment, I actually don't like that the face masks of the higher tiers really make them look like ninjas somewhat.

And concerning stealth, after the night elf hunters from that other game, I think it'll be dififcult to convince many people that stealth for a RDPS class is a good thing. Although thinking of the background of the class stelath or concealment skills would really fit. But at least as it was implementent until now in MMOs, I'd rather have no stealth.

ChosenOne

02-02-2008, 11:01 PM

I don't care what cowardly tactics Shadow Warriors use. All ninja wannabes will have a reserved spot in my couldron :mrgreen:

Havnt you heard? They changed the name of Witch Elves to Assassins. You no longer have a cauldron. :-D

comegetsomejuib

02-02-2008, 11:13 PM

making the shadow warrior "invisible" until someone enters HIS max shooting range sounds okay to me, this makes it seem like he is hiding, but not actually invisible, and involves very little of the in combat invisibility, just my opinion on the "safest" way that could give sw stealth, personally i like the idea but i dont care for it to be included.

Shalaa

02-02-2008, 11:36 PM

Havnt you heard? They changed the name of Witch Elves to Assassins. You no longer have a cauldron. :-D

Ok you win.

I'm just off to go sulk in the corner :mad:

Vit

02-04-2008, 05:41 AM

I have also mention my liking for this idea in difference to stealth being invisibilty. But then it would obvisiouly be a skill that any class can use.

The same skill for everybody. It sounds like socialism :) If everybody has everything equal - it's not fair. I know it's political correct to say everybody borns as a "tabula rasa" and has the same chances in life, what is FALSE. Some people are smarter, some people are stronger, some people are more beautiful.. and some people are unlucky :) No equal at all. Games shouldn't be exception :D

And how do you know this? Please cite an official source not under the NDA to support your claims. Otherwise, this is filed under speculation and you should make a disclaimer indicating that.

Folks, on a general note, please refrain from making definitive statements such as the above and cite sources when appropriate so we don't have any confusion. If the source you cite here, however, is under NDA or is not official, well...I hope I wouldn't have to tell you that isn't allowed and will be dealt with.

Just a reminder.

I based on the Shadow Warrior's description in January's newsletter (I posted also a "quote" in my next post).

c_vadnais

02-04-2008, 10:23 AM

I based on the Shadow Warrior's description in January's newsletter (I posted also a "quote" in my next post).

there's nothing in it saying shadow warriors have stealth, no matter what you're speculating. Even the current hype and discussions about stealth are simply that, pure speculation. However, there is evidence that they wont have stealth, because Mythic they said they wont be implimenting it. Wether or not they're going to hold that is yet to be seen, but its the last thing that was said on the subject and is what we should take as fact for now.

ChosenOne

02-04-2008, 11:12 AM

I highly doubt we will have stealth. We would seriously be IMBA. Then they would nerf more then just stealth ability.

Look at how much people ed about night elf shadowmeld for their hunters. Same deal.

Vit

02-05-2008, 12:02 PM

there's nothing in it saying shadow warriors have stealth, no matter what you're speculating. Even the current hype and discussions about stealth are simply that, pure speculation. However, there is evidence that they wont have stealth, because Mythic they said they wont be implimenting it. Wether or not they're going to hold that is yet to be seen, but its the last thing that was said on the subject and is what we should take as fact for now.

OK, let me quote it again:
Shadow Warrior (...) potent offensive warrior capable of acting alone or as the scout for a larger group.

I'll make points:
1. SW can be scout for himself or for larger group.
2. Other classes can't be scouts - at least we don't know about it.

And then ask the question: What make scout class unique, what make it different from other classes? He can be scout, others can't - why?

At the end, this is what I said..
I am afraid stealth will be somehow - better or worse way - implemented (...)
I just mean some classes can have access to something we could call stealth.. and not invisibility.

This is the forum, this is the thread. We discuss here, we speculate here, we try to read between lines. If we can state only facts - as u suggest - newsletter/devs give us - then we don't need any discussion. All we need is copy+paste the link to some new information/movie/screenshot.

I highly doubt we will have stealth. We would seriously be IMBA. Then they would nerf more then just stealth ability.

Look at how much people ed about night elf shadowmeld for their hunters. Same deal.

True, good sample. But if SW can be scout, then - how? :)

c_vadnais

02-05-2008, 12:17 PM

Scouting doesn't = stealth

you're taking it out of context.
Scouting:
1. an act or instance of reconnoitering; reconnaissance.

that doesn't mean you have to be invisible. Stealth as a mechanic in MMO's requires that you go invisible in some way or another so that your target cannot see you. Being able to scout out your enemies position doesn't mean that you have to be invisible. I can scout out your keep without you seeing me just by having a spell that allows me to see distances as if i was looking through a scope (take eagle eye from the WoW hunter for example). I can scout out your position and defenses in a keep before my group attacks you as pretty much any class, but Shadow Warriors (from what I can read) are simply going to be better at doing so and not risking getting caught as easily, which can be simple snares and traps to keep persuers at bay.

Also, their scouting can refer to using guerilla tactics against a force to soften it up(taking out key people, support and DPS classes) for your larger groups assault. Scouting is an act anyone can do, the Shadow Warrior is simply tailored to it and the guerilla tactics usually accompanied with it. I apologize for being as biased against stealth as I am, but i've played a lot of stealth classes (I actually love stealth) but the problem is that it raises way too many problems with balance and mechanics, so rather than push for it I push against it to simply save everyone the trouble of starting a nerf contest between every class in the game (like WoW has)

Vit

02-05-2008, 01:01 PM

Scouting doesn't = stealth

you're taking it out of context.

that doesn't mean you have to be invisible. Stealth as a mechanic in MMO's requires that you go invisible in some way or another so that your target cannot see you. Being able to scout out your enemies position doesn't mean that you have to be invisible. I can scout out your keep without you seeing me just by having a spell that allows me to see distances as if i was looking through a scope (take eagle eye from the WoW hunter for example). I can scout out your position and defenses in a keep before my group attacks you as pretty much any class, but Shadow Warriors (from what I can read) are simply going to be better at doing so and not risking getting caught as easily, which can be simple snares and traps to keep persuers at bay.

Also, their scouting can refer to using guerilla tactics against a force to soften it up(taking out key people, support and DPS classes) for your larger groups assault. Scouting is an act anyone can do, the Shadow Warrior is simply tailored to it and the guerilla tactics usually accompanied with it. I apologize for being as biased against stealth as I am, but i've played a lot of stealth classes (I actually love stealth) but the problem is that it raises way too many problems with balance and mechanics, so rather than push for it I push against it to simply save everyone the trouble of starting a nerf contest between every class in the game (like WoW has)

Nah, you can be against. For me it's ok - just in my opinion some kind of stealth can be implemented (like staying in one place (in the forest only) and no moving.. and for example can shadowmeld, but 5 minutes after last attack).. doesn't metter, let's continue..

I'll give you another sample.

Scouting, Skirmish, and Assault. Scouting maneuvers focus on moving into territory ahead of the vanguard and striking out at critical locations from long range. Skirmish maneuvers focus on hit-and-run tactics using powerful short range bow attacks that can be unleashed on the run. Assault maneuvers focus on slaying their opponents at close range with quick, graceful strikes of a longsword.

In my opinion SW focused on Scouting will have possibility to go into enemy territory. While others - will not have this possibility. Question is - HOW? :)

c_vadnais

02-05-2008, 01:05 PM

Foofmonger

02-05-2008, 01:18 PM

c_vadnais

02-05-2008, 01:21 PM

No stealth of any kind for ranged DPS classes, please.

Espescially the SW, which has been labeled as the "mobile" ranged class. Stealth and shooting on the move? No freakin way.

If there is stealth in WAR, the only (and I mean only) classes I could see it working on is the Witch Hunter, and the Witch Elf.

QFT

its bad enough that its hard to balance, but giving it to a class that can kill you before you even have a chance to see it? no thanks

Vit

02-05-2008, 01:44 PM

ahead of the vanguard, which is ahead of the main force. Again, softening them up for the assault, i'm fuzzy on the full thing but does it actually state somewhere that they can go where other people can't?

Edit: sorry to answer your question with another question, but its things that need to be asked ;)

They will have more (than other classes) options to go into the enemy territory. So, how? More options means what? Faster? Flying? Walking on the hands? We don't know.

But how to understand it with words "Scouting Mastery" which focus on that (and it means it will give you (maybe) 4-5 unique skills). How do you think - what skills?

QFT

its bad enough that its hard to balance, but giving it to a class that can kill you before you even have a chance to see it? no thanks

That class doesn't need to have possibility to kill you. Bright Wizard also have potential abilities to kill you by sending 2 fireballs before you reach him. And even you do, you are in Fire Cage and.. you have to kiss another fireball :) It means your health bar is 50% full :)
Now, let's say arrow is not so strong what is obvious. And SW waits and waits and waits in ambush (kinda boring?) and only in forest. Then - he can send arrow to you, show himself (and can't hide before 5minuts).. he send 3-4 more and you know where he is.. you run to him, he escapes.. your health bar is 70% full.. is that bad implemented stealth skill?

Foofmonger

02-05-2008, 01:48 PM

That class doesn't need to have possibility to kill you. Bright Wizard also have potential abilities to kill you by sending 2 fireballs before you reach him. And even you do, you are in Fire Cage and.. you have to kiss another fireball :)

Yet you can see the Bright Wizard, always. I fail to see any kind of coherent comparison in this statement.

Now, let's say arrow is not so strong what is obvious. And SW waits and waits and waits in ambush (kinda boring?) and only in forest. Then - he can send arrow to you, show himself (and can't hide before 5minuts).. he send 3-4 more and you know where he is.. you run to him, he escapes.. your health bar is 70% full.. is that bad implemented stealth skill?

Yes it is, because it wouldn't work like that. Have you ever even played DAoC where archers do get stealth?

This is how it works. The SW waits in ambush, he then shoots his target multiple times before they even figure out where he is. At this point in time, they try to run towards the SW, who can fire on the move, never get close, and get killed from a stealthed ranged class with incredible mobility.

No thanks. Its a dumb idea, and it will never ever ever ever happen.

Vit

02-05-2008, 01:51 PM

Yet you can see the Bright Wizard, always. I fail to see any kind of coherent comparison in this statement.

OK, you stay 300 yards from BW.. before you reach him your health bar is 50% full.. and then the fight begin. of course if you are capable to reach him, what is not obvious.

Yes it is, because it wouldn't work like that. Have you ever even played DAoC where archers do get stealth?

This is how it works. The SW waits in ambush, he then shoots his target multiple times before they even figure out where he is. At this point in time, they try to run towards the SW, who can fire on the move, never get close, and get killed from a stealthed ranged class with incredible mobility.

No thanks. Its a dumb idea, and it will never ever ever ever happen.

So the problem is in mobility, not in waiting in stealth mode.
What about timer - you can attack after 10 seconds of beeing visible? :)

Foofmonger

02-05-2008, 02:00 PM

OK, you stay 300 yards from BW.. before you reach him your health bar is 50% full.. and then the fight begin. of course if you are capable to reach him, what is not obvious.

The BW isn't mobile like the SW though, and definitely wouldn't have stealth. Meaning that hes pretty much a sitting duck out there, once you get up to him, chances are you can keep him in range.

So the problem is in mobility, not in waiting in stealth mode.
What about timer - you can attack after 10 seconds of beeing visible? :)

Thats the exact problem, mobility, which is apparantly the main strength of the SW class. Mobility + stealth (even very limited stealth) = horrible idea, any way you look at it.

If the SW was a non-mobile, couldn't shoot on the move or melee well class and was all about long range bow attacks only, then I could see a limited stealth aspect for them working. Since this is not the case, I don't see it working whatsoever.

Graven

02-05-2008, 02:22 PM

The only thing close to stealth I could live with for the Shadow Warrior (but then again, come to think of it, all classes should have it) is the name tag disappearing when the shadow warrior is not in motion. It should be invisible only to enemies, and it should become visible the second the character moves.

c_vadnais

02-05-2008, 02:26 PM

exactly, you're trying to say that in order to scout ahead of someone you have to be able to hide, that's not true, there are 1 million + ways to scout ahead and not use stealth. Besides, it doesn't say they have skills that allow them to sneak places, they are designed to be a long ranged, guerilla fighter. There is no balanced way to give the shadow warrior stealth, just like there wouldn't be anything balanced about giving a support class the same DPS or tanking ability as other classes *cough*Paladin*cough*

Going into enemy territory is easy, ANYONE CAN DO IT, the thing is that shadow warriors will have the superior kiting abilities, that makes them very good guerilla fighters to harass a force and pick off key players before the main force arrives and decimates them. Enemy turff isn't going to have guards to keep you from getting in at all (there probably will be guards somewhere on the border, but not like a giant wall).

I'll give this senario...

You (SW), are teamed up with maybe 2 others or maybe yourself and a few more RPS, you're apart of a larger raid going to an enemy keep, you're sent ahead of the group to start small skirmishes with the enemy raid to pick off their healers and keep them distracted while the actual raid sweeps in and flanks them, catching them off guard and spread out.

Its that kind of tactic that the shadow warrior is going to excell at. Scout is a misleading word, I think they used it instead of something like "sniper" or "guerilla fighter"

Vit

02-05-2008, 02:58 PM

If the SW was a non-mobile, couldn't shoot on the move or melee well class and was all about long range bow attacks only, then I could see a limited stealth aspect for them working. Since this is not the case, I don't see it working whatsoever.

I write again:

If you wanna do good scouting (probably kinda stealth, even very very limited) you have to focus on SCOUTING path.
If you wanna hit-and-run you have to focus on SKIRMISH path.
You can't be master in both. It means your skills will be VERY limited in one - your choice - aspect of fight.

Going into enemy territory is easy, ANYONE CAN DO IT, the thing is that shadow warriors will have the superior kiting abilities, that makes them very good guerilla fighters to harass a force and pick off key players before the main force arrives and decimates them. Enemy turff isn't going to have guards to keep you from getting in at all (there probably will be guards somewhere on the border, but not like a giant wall).

(...)

Its that kind of tactic that the shadow warrior is going to excell at. Scout is a misleading word, I think they used it instead of something like "sniper" or "guerilla fighter"

Same answer as above. You have to chose to be master in SCOUTING or SKIRMISH !
You describe SKIRMISH path - very nice :)

However I am asking you to describe SCOUTING path :) Tell me some interesting skills which allow SW to SCOUT deep into enemy territory and do only (standard SW attack) longbow attacks :) And will not allow them to use shortbow hit-and-run tactic or sword.

c_vadnais

02-05-2008, 03:21 PM

I write again:

If you wanna do good scouting (probably kinda stealth, even very very limited) you have to focus on SCOUTING path.
If you wanna hit-and-run you have to focus on SKIRMISH path.
You can't be master in both. It means your skills will be VERY limited in one - your choice - aspect of fight.

Same answer as above. You have to chose to be master in SCOUTING or SKIRMISH !
You describe SKIRMISH path - very nice :)

However I am asking you to describe SCOUTING path :) Tell me some interesting skills which allow SW to SCOUT deep into enemy territory and do only (standard SW attack) longbow attacks :) And will not allow them to use shortbow hit-and-run tactic or sword.

you're not really making sense to me here....:confused:and I dont think i'm getting through to you...use small words for me, im very...."simple" ;)

the scouting path will focus on not only being able to "scout" out the enemy, but make long range attacks as well, im not describing masteries here, im talking about STRATEGY that will be used with a shadow warrior. And as I stated before, things like an ability that allows you to see farther in the distance than other classes would be an ability that the shadow warrior would have that would allow them to scout.

If you wanna talk masteries its the same arguement, the scouting path will focus on long range combat, so giving them stealth would be even more unbalanced since they'd quite literally be a sniper that could stay stealthed until they unleashed a hail of strong attacks from a long range. A scouting mastery SW would just be better at dealing damage from a long range, and have access to abilities that allow him to spot targets from a distance. They may have roots or snares that others might not have, but if a SW is the target, then he will eventually have to use short range attacks, eventually someone will catch up and start smacking him around, that's just part of balance.

Even if they made the stealth weak or made it so you had to be out of it to attack, then why have it if you can't use it to your advantage in the fight? What use is standing invisible in one spot not able to do anything without becoming visable?

I can see that you're trying to make me say that you have to sneak around, but it wont happen, im very stubborn :mrgreen: btw, from the way Mythic has talked, while you can't master more than one tree, i'd expect you can master one and get pretty far in another as well even if you dont master it. I personally am expecting hybrids to be the best builds and not ones that focus solely on one mastery too much.

Edit: keep in mind, just because you haven't put points into the mastery, doesn't mean you dont have those abilities, someone with scouting/melee mastery will still be able to move and shoot, just not as well as someone who has gone into the skirmish mastery.

Vit

02-05-2008, 03:30 PM

If you wanna talk masteries its the same arguement, the scouting path will focus on long range combat, so giving them stealth would be even more unbalanced since they'd quite literally be a sniper that could stay stealthed until they unleashed a hail of strong attacks from a long range.

Until they have restrictions like - they have to wait 10 seconds for be able to attack after going out from stealth? Just a sample - we can see much more restrictions, different in type to not allow people use tactic you described.

Even if they made the stealth weak or made it so you had to be out of it to attack, then why have it if you can't use it to your advantage in the fight? What use is standing invisible in one spot not able to do anything without becoming visable?

This maybe wasn't good sample - but anyway, it can be used for ambushes. Like in real life :)

I can see that you're trying to make me say that you have to sneak around, but it wont happen, im very stubborn :mrgreen: btw, from the way Mythic has talked, while you can't master more than one tree, i'd expect you can master one and get pretty far in another as well even if you dont master it. I personally am expecting hybrids to be the best builds and not ones that focus solely on one mastery too much

Until you have super-hiper-uber-nuke-bomb ability as the crown of the path :)

c_vadnais

02-05-2008, 03:45 PM

Until they have restrictions like - they have to wait 10 seconds for be able to attack after going out from stealth? Just a sample - we can see much more restrictions, different in type to not allow people use tactic you described.

This maybe wasn't good sample - but anyway, it can be used for ambushes. Like in real life :)

Until you have super-hiper-uber-nuke-bomb ability as the crown of the path :)

I see what you're trying to say now, im just disagreeing heavily lol. The problem is that, like has been stated over and over, its impossible to give a ranged DPS class a "hiding" ability and maintain balance. For instance, say they have an ability to make a long ranged attack from stealth, but breaks the stealth when used. What's to stop a group of 5 shadow warriors from using this ability all at the same time and nuking someone into the dirt only to run away, go back into stealth, and do it again? While that is an extreme case it gets my point across, stealth is a very easy mechanic to exploit and make it overpowered even if it wasn't designed to be.

Realism isn't a good thing to bring up in this circumstance either, while it may be realistic, its also realistic that if I really tried to I could probably shoot something several times with a bow in a forest without getting spotted, but its unbalanced to put it in an MMORPG :mrgreen:

Vit

02-05-2008, 04:14 PM

I see what you're trying to say now, im just disagreeing heavily lol. The problem is that, like has been stated over and over, its impossible to give a ranged DPS class a "hiding" ability and maintain balance. For instance, say they have an ability to make a long ranged attack from stealth, but breaks the stealth when used. What's to stop a group of 5 shadow warriors from using this ability all at the same time and nuking someone into the dirt only to run away, go back into stealth, and do it again? While that is an extreme case it gets my point across, stealth is a very easy mechanic to exploit and make it overpowered even if it wasn't designed to be.

Realism isn't a good thing to bring up in this circumstance either, while it may be realistic, its also realistic that if I really tried to I could probably shoot something several times with a bow in a forest without getting spotted, but its unbalanced to put it in an MMORPG :mrgreen:

OK.. I know my english is really, really broken. But I just posted:
1. you can't hide and shoot, you have to show yourself, wait 10 seconds and then can shoot,
2. you can't hide after shoot, simply - you shoot, you have to wait 10 seconds till you can hide,
3. you can hide only in forest,

And you say 5 SWs will stealth, shoot, stealth, shoot..
It's like discussing..
- "This sheet is white"
- "I have to disagree, because I think this wallet is black" :)

Point (1) means - you can infiltrate the enemy territory.. but you can't attack enemy. Before you have to show yourself and then start to fight...

c_vadnais

02-05-2008, 04:34 PM

OK.. I know my english is really, really broken. But I just posted:
1. you can't hide and shoot, you have to show yourself, wait 10 seconds and then can shoot,
2. you can't hide after shoot, simply - you shoot, you have to wait 10 seconds till you can hide,
3. you can hide only in forest,

And you say 5 SWs will stealth, shoot, stealth, shoot..
It's like discussing..
- "This sheet is white"
- "I have to disagree, because I think this wallet is black" :)

Point (1) means - you can infiltrate the enemy territory.. but you can't attack enemy. Before you have to show yourself and then start to fight...

I know what you said (and your english isn't that bad, I can barely tell its not your first language^.^), i was giving an example as to why so many are opposed to stealth, as for your examples, I see what you're saying. However, if you come out of stealth and have to wait a reasonable length of time before you can shoot, that's time the enemy is going to have to close on you regardless of wether or not you have stealth, so if you countered it by making the time shorter than it still becomes an imbalance because its something you can exploit to tremendous affect. Also, keep in mind that all the destruction races are announced and none fit the role of having stealth, if order is the only one that has only 1 stealth class, then its no fair at all. You're far better of simply using the trees as cover to get close rather than giving you a stealth ability that you can only use in a forest, and have to wait 10 seconds after you leave stealth to attack.

Vit

02-05-2008, 04:41 PM

I know what you said (and your english isn't that bad, I can barely tell its not your first language^.^),

4th ;) But it wasn't my choice. 20 years ago I couldn't chose what language to learn.

Also, keep in mind that all the destruction races are announced and none fit the role of having stealth, if order is the only one that has only 1 stealth class (...)

OK, OK.. I give up ;) Browncoat already posted in this thread what he thinks about me :D

Anyway - I am stubborn either. And I still will think stealth can be nicely implemented and not overpower the class ;)

c_vadnais

02-05-2008, 04:43 PM

4th ;) But it wasn't my choice. 20 years ago I couldn't chose what language to learn.

OK, OK.. I give up ;) Browncoat already posted in this thread what he thinks about me :D

Anyway - I am stubborn either. And I still will think stealth can be nicely implemented and not overpower the class ;)

my stubborn attitude pays off again! :p

Talthanys

02-07-2008, 12:14 PM

Well, maybe deep Scouting simply takes you off a trackable radar or something. When people say 'stealth' they are really talking about a full alpha channel swap to 100% (like rogues in WoW).

There are plenty of other ways to define stealth.

For example, what if you load into a CTF scenario, and, with enough Scouting skill, choose to start ahead of the main group, or start 10 seconds earlier than everyone?

Just thoughts.

True_Monk

02-21-2008, 01:09 PM

I am not really sure how you guys end up thinking that scouting into enymy territory have nothing to do with not being seen. Running in front of the main force and softening up the enemy is for skirmishers.

I am just copy pasting my reply from another thread awhile back. It seems most people don't know what the word "stealth" means and confuse it the word "invisibility". This guyis a good example:

can anyone provide a good reason TO include stealth, instead of assuming it is a given in all mmos now and forever?

it seems like a grandfathered idea that everyone gives a free pass.

kudos to mythic for breaking the stealther idea.

true stealth is hiding in bushes or trees, not turning invisible in plain sight.

all classes can be stealthy. there should be no invisible classes.

I'm just giving an example of that will happen.

Scounting Shadow Warrior: Uhh, I'm hiding behind this bush, sure he won't see me now, he's coming this way, hehe... I'll just wait till he has gone by and then I'll sneak on.

Scenario 1
Running Magus: Walking down the road.. Dum di dum, hmm What's is that big red "Sneakyelf4ever" floating over the bush? I'll try click on it :p - casting fireball of doom and destruction...

Scenario 2
Running Magus: Walking down the road.. Dum di dum, hmm I'm wondering if ther's any anemies nearby "pushing target nearest enemy button" - casting fireball of doom and destruction...

And since there is big red floating names in all the gameplaymovies I have seen so far, I don't think hinding behind a bush will get anyone very far. Of course there will most likely be some odd places where you can hide that big red name in something, but that is pretty wierd too, is it not?

My point is that they don't have to implement a "I can stand in the middle of the road waiting for you to walk into me"-kind of stealth, but a stealth that would turn of the big floating name is a must if anyone is going to lay a nice tactical ambush.

Disabling the autotarget feature is somewhat harder perhaps, I am not sure how problematic that would be.

*Please read the thread instead of screaming "no stealth, invisble RDPS in a no go" ;)