I know there are only about 4 of us, but...

[Gorgotha]

... anyone have any more info on our Grudge mechanic? I'm a bit worried it'll be a bit too much like the rage mechanic from WoW for me. I love everything about the Ironbreaker, but I don't wanna feel like I'm playing a dwarf warrior. Now, I'm not complaining, I'm just seeking some reassurance. :mrgreen:


P.S. Here's to hoping for some well thought out and varied masteries.;)

[Truce]

The grudge system is nothing like WoW's rage system.

Grudge is built up as you and your group take damage. Some of your abilities also add to it.

Grudge is not consumed to activate abilities. It's more like a passive buff that scales upwards the longer you fight and bleeds off once you're out of combat.

Grudge increases your damage and also increases the effectiveness of many of your abilities, such as making your snare last longer.

[8igdave]

I dont think grudge will be so good. Although enermys area always going to be attacking other people. In a smaller group vs group if they just aimed at the tank like they are ment to do. you wont do much damage. But i gues in RVR your gona be rackin up the damage due to being surrounded by people beig attacked.

o and wow really only 4 of you? lol.

[Gorgotha]

I really had no idea that grudge worked as a passive buff, ya mind linking the source? Not that I don't believe ya mind you, I'd just like to read the info in it's entirety.;) I also wasn't aware that it was in fact NOT consumed by abilities.

And yes, there are only 10 dwarfs total, hadn't you noticed? (I'm joking of course:rolleyes:)

[Truce]

I can't seem to find the original post now. Somebody played an ironbreaker at a gamesday event last year and reported that's how the mechanic worked, though. (Obviously it could have changed since then as the game is currently under development.)

You can read a list of abilities that people have transcribed out of gamesday videos here: http://www.war-resource.com/careers/ironbreaker.php#abilities Note that none of the abilities are listed as consuming grudge. (By contrast, many warrior priest and shaman abilities state that they consume Righteous Fury or Waaagh.)

[Lucrece]

Grudge is the perfect tank mechanic. It punishes players for hitting you, but it punishes them far more if they hit someone other than yourself. It's a lose-lose situation for the enemy.

The source for the mechanic is right at Mythic's Ironbreaker Career Overview section of the WAR site.

[Boulvae]

8igdave it's not about the damage, it's about doing your job as a TANK, not a DPS, a TANK. The Grudge mechanic is perfect for that job because it acts like a player agro of sorts, forcing players to make a choice to attack the Ironbreaker, or attack his mates ignoring him thus invoking his wrath. So getting everyone to conentrate on you, taking it, and protecting your mates is the job of a TANK.

[Gorgotha]

Truce, that's an excellent site, thanks.:)

Lucrece, I read what Mythic had to say, but I was asking for a bit of a more in depth explanation, such as how it would be implemented.;) I do agree it's an excellent mechanic, I was simply afraid it would be implemented similar to WoW's rage mechanic, with the added bonus that it built up with damage done to allies as well. But if it indeed works as Truce described then I'm quite a bit relieved.:-D

Bigdave, Boulvae hit the nail on the head, I'm not hunting big numbers here, I aim to be the most annoying brick of a dwarf on the battlefield, especially when ignored.;)

[Lucrece]

8igdave it's not about the damage, it's about doing your job as a TANK, not a DPS, a TANK. The Grudge mechanic is perfect for that job because it acts like a player agro of sorts, forcing players to make a choice to attack the Ironbreaker, or attack his mates ignoring him thus invoking his wrath. So getting everyone to conentrate on you, taking it, and protecting your mates is the job of a TANK.

And, besides, from the videos and reviews that have been released, Ironbreakers with accumulated grudge hit still rather hard even with a one hander and shield. Now, imagine how one would hit with a 2-hander and offensively spec. That would make for a big incentive to have the target get back on you if he wants a better chance at staying alive.

[Xyphos]

I can't help but laugh at people that make a tank character and plan to spec offensively.

But! As to how grudge works, if it does in fact work passively that sounds pretty awesome. here's hoping it's a realistic increase while fighting, and it's not like a you have to be fighting for 10 minutes straight to reach a decent amount of rage.

Let's all hope our mastery's are fantastic! I plan to play an Iron Breaker regardless, but it'll just make it more bearable if it's not horribly balanced.

[Lucrece]

I can't help but laugh at people that make a tank character and plan to spec offensively.

But! As to how grudge works, if it does in fact work passively that sounds pretty awesome. here's hoping it's a realistic increase while fighting, and it's not like a you have to be fighting for 10 minutes straight to reach a decent amount of rage.

Let's all hope our mastery's are fantastic! I plan to play an Iron Breaker regardless, but it'll just make it more bearable if it's not horribly balanced.


I can't help but laugh at people who wrongly presume that a tank is a solely defensive entity ;).

[The Penguin Hunter]

I can't help but laugh at people who wrongly presume that a tank is a solely defensive entity ;).


.. It's a tank, the word does not emply an offensive meaning :P

[Lucrece]

.. It's a tank, the word does not emply an offensive meaning :P

Let's see if you keep such a stance when you face one under war ;).

[Xyphos]

I can't help but laugh at people who wrongly presume that a tank is a solely defensive entity ;).

We'll see who has the last laugh when it's released I suppose.

Either way, I watched a PVP Video of an ironbreaker where you could actually make out the grudge meter, and it truly doesn't go down when using abilities, so it was passive when that video was taken. It could have changed since then, but that video left me to believe it's a passive buff more or less, which seems insane.

[Loekii]

So what are the offensive aspects (not DPS, but rather how will they kill things)?

[Lucrece]

So what are the offensive aspects (not DPS, but rather how will they kill things)?

To whom is this question addressed? ;p

[The Penguin Hunter]

With all jokes aside I am really convinced to roll Ironbreaker compared to a Hammerer I mean I was set on rolling a Hammerer before Ironbreaker but now I guess I gota try em both out at the same time

[Boulvae]

Easy, the battle won't last 5 seconds, it'll be longer and everyone can kill everyone, just some have an advantage over others.

[Xyphos]

So what are the offensive aspects (not DPS, but rather how will they kill things)?

From what I saw in this video, it was basically the character just hitting things weakly for a little while. Eventually he gained more grudge to where his hits were doing an incredible amount of damage. He ran up to a black ork and practically 5 shot it.

Basically what I am saying is your damage, overall, will greatly increase the time you are in combat. How is pretty cut and dry, they ran up and hit them with an axe.

http://www.war-resource.com/careers/ironbreaker.php - shows the actual info of the abilities.

[The Penguin Hunter]

well we should all remember the numbers and abilities are still not set in stone and will probably even change after the game has been realized, it will all depend on how long mythic will take to balance out everything

[Loekii]

From what I saw in this video, it was basically the character just hitting things weakly for a little while. Eventually he gained more grudge to where his hits were doing an incredible amount of damage. He ran up to a black ork and practically 5 shot it.

Basically what I am saying is your damage, overall, will greatly increase the time you are in combat. How is pretty cut and dry, they ran up and hit them with an axe.

http://www.war-resource.com/careers/ironbreaker.php - shows the actual info of the abilities.

Thanks. It will be interesting to see how it develops, as that could be an enjoyable playstyle for some.

[seVere]

With all jokes aside I am really convinced to roll Ironbreaker compared to a Hammerer I mean I was set on rolling a Hammerer before Ironbreaker but now I guess I gota try em both out at the same time

Do you have four arms?

ty for the link xyphos

[Xyphos]

Don't thank me, Thank Truce. He had posted it originally in this same thread, it just seems like no one noticed.

[The Penguin Hunter]

Do you have four arms?

ty for the link xyphos


Maybe...<.< >.>

I mean it pays to worship tzeentch >.>

[8igdave]

I really had no idea that grudge worked as a passive buff, ya mind linking the source? Not that I don't believe ya mind you, I'd just like to read the info in it's entirety.;) I also wasn't aware that it was in fact NOT consumed by abilities.

And yes, there are only 10 dwarfs total, hadn't you noticed? (I'm joking of course:rolleyes:)

Cant remeber where read. But i beleive its like hate. Makes you deal more damage and givse you acess to abilities.

[Xyphos]

Well you can read on the above link what a certain amount of grudge will help do. Like for one of the snare abilities, it increases the snares duration 3 seconds for every 25 Grudge you have. So if you have a full grudge bar (100) that's 3x4, so 12 EXTRA seconds on top of the 3 it already was. So with a full grudge bar your 3 second snare turns into a 15 second snare. Not too shabby if you ask me.

[8igdave]

Well you can read on the above link what a certain amount of grudge will help do. Like for one of the snare abilities, it increases the snares duration 3 seconds for every 25 Grudge you have. So if you have a full grudge bar (100) that's 3x4, so 12 EXTRA seconds on top of the 3 it already was. So with a full grudge bar your 3 second snare turns into a 15 second snare. Not too shabby if you ask me.

O willies thats gona sting in RVR. But tbh, if i had to put money on abilities to getting nerfed i think this could come into the candidates. But we shall see, its far to early to jump the gun.

[Xyphos]

Everything I'm saying is in the beta now, and may or may not be there when they go live. it does sound pretty overpowered on paper as is.

[Lucrece]

Everything I'm saying is in the beta now, and may or may not be there when they go live. it does sound pretty overpowered on paper as is.

Balance needs to take into account how the other tanks also perform. They might have comparable capabilities.

And a snare for 15 seconds isn't that overpowered considering the many escape abilities available in the game.

[Festo]

i love the grudge mechanic

screwed if you hit me

screwed if you dont

:cool:

[Kazra]

Hey guys, new to the boards here. Just found this site, and it has a wealth of resources, so I figured i'd go ahead and hop on board. I am excited for release, and plan on rolling an Ironbreaker immediately. The grudge mechanic sounds incredible, if I understand it correctly.
Should make the Ironbreaker very viable in both PvP and PvE, as both an offensive and defensive player.

I read someone asking about how an offensive Ironbreaker would work, I think.
I believe by release it'll be changed around a little bit, but as I understand it now, as your allies, and yourself take damage or are engaged in combat, grudge rises, and as it rises, the damage and potency of your abilities. I have the feeling abilities will be split into high threat, medium threat, and low/no threat, and an "offensive" Ironbreaker would be forced to use the low/medium, and occasionally the High threat moves, in order to do damage.

My view of the class may be completely skewed, who knows, but that's as far as I understand combat at the moment. If I am wrong on anything i'd love to know so I dont go into the game expecting something that won't be there!

[8igdave]

i love the grudge mechanic

screwed if you hit me

screwed if you dont

:cool:

Unless your dealign penuts of damage, in which case your ignorable.

[Xyphos]

Unless your dealing peanuts of damage, in which case your ignorable.

Not an exact quite since I fixed your typo's, but moving on!

According to a few accounts of heard of those whom have played at misc conventions, iron breakers themselves deal negligible damage in a fight when it first starts, but when left alone for a minute or so to gain grudge, they become an very threatening problem. I think what Festo meant is as a tank you're going to be difficult to bring down, so most people wouldn't call you as a first target (they'd opt for squishier, easier to kill targets), but if you leave the Iron breaker alone and opt to target him later in the fight, you might be leaving him alone to long to where his grudge is high enough to where his damage starts to really be a concern.

as the Class description says, "Fighting an Ironbreaker calls for some tough choices: do you try to wear away the anvil or do you attack his friends and hope that the anvil doesn’t fall on your head?"

[Boulvae]

The PC's in this game have shown to have ALOT of health, and all do good damage (hundreds for everyone above tier 4) yet not denting it as fast as say WoW or any other faster paced combat.

Sides that peanuts worth is going to become a boulder, it's like a small snowbal rolling down a snowy hill.

[Gorgotha]

Well, let's say we do at most, peanuts of damage, regardless of our grudge level. I highly doubt this to be the case, but let's assume it is for the sake of my point. If indeed we do get a snare of upwards of 12+ seconds, and an AoE one to boot, that's no longer ignorable. If our stuns begin to climb in length, due to grudge bonuses, it's no longer ignorable. Maybe we have interupts that cause a silence effect with added grudge, similiar to shaman's earth shock in WoW, that would be very hard to ignore. The point is, even if we do have terrible melee DPS ( which again, I highly doubt), our grudge enhanced skills will still become a major problem for those who choose to ignore us. You don't have to be hitting me for me to stop you from hitting my mates.;) For the last time, offensive tanking isn't always "weee! l00k at mah twohander, zomg leet dmg!";) It's more about playstyle, and skill set. Now that doesn't mean I don't like to swing a very large hammer every now and again, you know, "Gorgo smash!" and all that.:rolleyes:

[Lucrece]

Not an exact quite since I fixed your typo's, but moving on!

According to a few accounts of heard of those whom have played at misc conventions, iron breakers themselves deal negligible damage in a fight when it first starts, but when left alone for a minute or so to gain grudge, they become an very threatening problem. I think what Festo meant is as a tank you're going to be difficult to bring down, so most people wouldn't call you as a first target (they'd opt for squishier, easier to kill targets), but if you leave the Iron breaker alone and opt to target him later in the fight, you might be leaving him alone to long to where his grudge is high enough to where his damage starts to really be a concern.

as the Class description says, "Fighting an Ironbreaker calls for some tough choices: do you try to wear away the anvil or do you attack his friends and hope that the anvil doesn’t fall on your head?"

From the very same accounts, the Black Orc deals also fairly low damage, only that his damage doesn't increase exponentially as our does with the grudge system.

I would say the ignorable damage (that is, until you gain grudge, where even with a 1-hander people have reported IB's to be hitting rather hard) is more a result of having a 1-hander, which is all we've been given at higher tier play, than actual base mechanics of the career.

[Boulvae]

Black Orcs arn't about their DPS (also Tanks can do good damage, but DPS's will always out class them), their about dirty fighting, and keeping everybody busy. Basically the perfect Orcy playstyle, in the fight and start scrappin'.

[Lucrece]

Black Orcs arn't about their DPS (also Tanks can do good damage, but DPS's will always out class them), their about dirty fighting, and keeping everybody busy. Basically the perfect Orcy playstyle, in the fight and start scrappin'.

Yeah, I'm aware. I mentioned them for the sake of comparison, as they were the only other shield & 1-hander tank available for players to test in RvR.

[Bluhd Wuhlf]

I didnt realize it was passive either. Way cool if it stays that way. Oh and make that 5 ... I will be suiting up in Gromril and a shield too.

[Xyphos]

From the very same accounts, the Black Orc deals also fairly low damage, only that his damage doesn't increase exponentially as our does with the grudge system.

I would say the ignorable damage (that is, until you gain grudge, where even with a 1-hander people have reported IB's to be hitting rather hard) is more a result of having a 1-hander, which is all we've been given at higher tier play, than actual base mechanics of the career.

I'm pretty sure most people are aware of your stance on iron breakers useage of one handers...

But, for the sake of argument let's say there is a two hander spec; our two handed damage at 0 grudge will still be negligible in comparison to full grudge. The entire component that makes the iron breaker a scary foe is grudge, regardless of what weapon you choose to use. I don't even see why you'd even bother to bring up using a one hander as an issue.

[Lucrece]

I'm pretty sure most people are aware of your stance on iron breakers useage of one handers...

But, for the sake of argument let's say there is a two hander spec; our two handed damage at 0 grudge will still be negligible in comparison to full grudge. The entire component that makes the iron breaker a scary foe is grudge, regardless of what weapon you choose to use. I don't even see why you'd even bother to bring up using a one hander as an issue.

You are assuming my stance to be anti- 1-hander, nice design of strawmen.

As for the theorycrafting on two-hander specs, all you have to say does not hold water as there is no evidence to confirm your claims. I'd rather wait for videos and reviews.

Finally, the 1-hander aspect is relevant because it shouldn't be hard to understand that using only one weapon which has inferior DPS to a 2-hander, and that can't be boosted via dual-wielding 1-handers, will probably dish out negligible damage in comparison to other weapon types.

[Xyphos]

You are assuming my stance to be anti- 1-hander, nice design of strawmen.

As for the theorycrafting on two-hander specs, all you have to say does not hold water as there is no evidence to confirm your claims. I'd rather wait for videos and reviews.

Finally, the 1-hander aspect is relevant because it shouldn't be hard to understand that using only one weapon which has inferior DPS to a 2-hander, and that can't be boosted via dual-wielding 1-handers, will probably dish out negligible damage in comparison to other weapon types.

I personally would love to have tanking options that didn't penalize me for not wearing a shield, just because I really dislike the aesthetics of shields and the even smaller 1H'er weapons.

I'd say that the above quote pretty much says, at the very least aesthetically, you don't like one handers as much as two handers. Strawman? I don't think so. Perhaps an assumption based on previous things you've said?

I don't see myself theory crafting at all. It's pretty apparent that Grudge directly effects damage, regardless of what weapon you are using. 0 grudge damage will be less then 100 grudge damage, that just seems like common sense. Watch the Gamesday video on war-resource if you don't agree that it is common sense.

As to using a one hander vs a two hander, sure your DPS as a whole will be less 1 vs 2, but your survivability (if other MMO's are any indication since I haven't heard anything to confirm this from WAR) is greater when using a shield. That is an assumption based on other MMO's (Edit: and generally most fantasy games), but it's been the same across the board for the most part that use a two hander, you deal more damage but sacrifice the survivability of the shield. The argument I was making is 0 grudge Damage Vs 100 Grudge damage.

[Lucrece]

I'd say that the above quote pretty much says, at the very least aesthetically, you don't like one handers as much as two handers. Strawman? I don't think so. Perhaps an assumption based on previous things you've said?

I don't see myself theory crafting at all. It's pretty apparent that Grudge directly effects damage, regardless of what weapon you are using. 0 grudge damage will be less then 100 grudge damage, that just seems like common sense. Watch the Gamesday video on war-resource if you don't agree that it is common sense.

As to using a one hander vs a two hander, sure your DPS as a whole will be less 1 vs 2, but your survivability (if other MMO's are any indication since I haven't heard anything to confirm this from WAR) is greater when using a shield. That is an assumption based on other MMO's, but it's been the same across the board for the most part that use a two hander, you deal more damage but sacrifice the survivability of the shield. The argument I was making is 0 grudge Damage Vs 100 Grudge damage.

Your assumptions are invalid because aesthetic preferences do not translate into a bias against the 1-handers' mechanics.

Furthermore, sure, 0 grudge damage will not be as high as 100 grudge damage, but that was not what I took issue with in your post. Where you are indeed stretching is when you generalize that 2-hander damage will be "negligible".

Additionally, the conversation I'm engaged in is obviously uninterested in survivability, so the whole weapon trade-survivability ratio topic you brought up is irrelevant.

It is common sense to assume that 100 grudge damage will be superior to 0 grudge damage; otherwise, what would be the use of grudge? It is also common sense that a 2-hander or dual-wield setup will output more DPS. Saying that the output will be negligible with other setups besides what we've been shown, however, is baseless speculation, not common sense.

[Xyphos]

Let me clarify my original statement so you don't go further into twisting my words. What I meant by "negligable" is bolded below.
our two handed damage at 0 grudge will still be negligible IN COMPARISON to full grudge.

Compare 0 grudge to 100 grudge, and the damage will be far less. The damage of 0 Grudge vs 100 grudge will be "so small, trifling, or unimportant that it may safely be neglected or disregarded" IN COMPARISON to 100 grudge damage.I never inteded it to be an argument of DW, Vs Two hander, Vs One hander damage ability. Anyone that has ever played an MMO knows the way it works, as I said above. What you made it sound like in your original quote

...is more a result of having a 1-hander, which is all we've been given at higher tier play, than actual base mechanics of the career.

is that you were blaming the low damage at Grudge 0 on the fact that the players were using a one hander, where I am saying your damage will always be "negligible" (see above) at 0 grudge in comparison to 100 grudge regardless of whether or not you are using a one or two hander. It will simply be a different scale of damage depending which weapon you are using.

[Lucrece]

Let me clarify my original statement so you don't go further into twisting my words. What I meant by "negligable" is bolded below.


Compare 0 grudge to 100 grudge, and the damage will be far less. The damage of 0 Grudge vs 100 grudge will be "so small, trifling, or unimportant that it may safely be neglected or disregarded" IN COMPARISON to 100 grudge damage.I never inteded it to be an argument of DW, Vs Two hander, Vs One hander damage ability. Anyone that has ever played an MMO knows the way it works, as I said above. What you made it sound like in your original quote



is that you were blaming the low damage at Grudge 0 on the fact that the players were using a one hander, where I am saying your damage will always be "negligible" (see above) at 0 grudge in comparison to 100 grudge regardless of whether or not you are using a one or two hander. It will simply be a different scale of damage depending which weapon you are using.

And apparently you are unaware of the importance of word choice. Negligible means insignificant, which translates into ignorable. You do not have the grounds to say that even at 0 grudge, the damage will be insignificant or ignorable with a 2-hander.

[Xyphos]

There is a reason I used "so small, trifling, or unimportant that it may safely be neglected or disregarded" in my above post. This is the dictionary.com definition, the first one listed on the page, of negligible. And the qualifier of "in comparison" I felt explained what I was attempting to say pretty well. Also, I never said the damage itself would be negligible, what I said was the damage in comparison would be. It'd be far harder to ignore a 100 grudge Iron Breaker then a 0 Grudge iron breaker, REGARDLESS of what weapon they are using.

[Lucrece]

There is a reason I used "so small, trifling, or unimportant that it may safely be neglected or disregarded" in my above post. This is the dictionary.com definition, the first one listed on the page, of negligible. And the qualifier of "in comparison" I felt explained what I was attempting to say pretty well. Also, I never said the damage itself would be negligible, what I said was the damage in comparison would be. It'd be far harder to ignore a 100 grudge Iron Breaker then a 0 Grudge iron breaker, REGARDLESS of what weapon they are using.

Seeing how you gain grudge whether the enemy ignores you or not, it would never be easy to ignore an Ironbreaker, be he/she at 0 or 100 grudge.

With the current system, an Ironbreaker will reach his/her damage peak early into the battle regardless of opponent attention.

[Xyphos]

Seeing how you gain grudge whether the enemy ignores you or not, it would never be easy to ignore an Ironbreaker, be he/she at 0 or 100 grudge.

With the current system, an Ironbreaker will reach his/her damage peak early into the battle regardless of opponent attention.

I don't even understand what you're attempting to discuss at this point.

I'm not saying you gain grudge depended on whether or not you're garnered attention. I'm saying generally speaking most tanks aren't considered any kind of serious threat vs a DPS class; that in most PVP encounters squishies or healers are called before a heavily armored tank. So in an encounter, you'd be ignored by the enemy until you started hitting them with bigger, scarier numbers, which will happen at higher grudge.

The above is theory crafting to a point based on prior experiences in MMO with tank oriented characters; I am willing to admit that. Don't agree with it? Good, I don't care! :rolleyes:

[Lucrece]

I don't even understand what you're attempting to discuss at this point.

I'm not saying you gain grudge depended on whether or not you're garnered attention. I'm saying generally speaking most tanks aren't considered any kind of serious threat vs a DPS class; that in most PVP encounters squishies or healers are called before a heavily armored tank. So in an encounter, you'd be ignored by the enemy until you started hitting them with bigger, scarier numbers, which will happen at higher grudge.

The above is theory crafting to a point based on prior experiences in MMO with tank oriented characters; I am willing to admit that. Don't agree with it? Good, I don't care! :rolleyes:

I'm more concerned with your attempts to pass your opinions off as obvious facts more than with the actual merits your theory might have. Of all things on my priorities list, your esteem is not one of them.

Now, it appears you missed the point of my previous post. You will still be a threat no matter at what level of grudge you are because that grudge will be at 100 one way or another pretty soon, whether attention was focused on you or not.

It appears you don't see tanks as equal threats to DPS classes, which is your first mistake. A tank can wreck attempts at training someone down. While your average DPS can probably dish out more damage than a tank in a short window of time, the archetype's very own survivability ratings limits its effectiveness if a tank were thrown into the equation. The tank foils the DPS careers' attempted focus, and in turn sets them up for retaliation. Furthremore, a tank can take far more punishment than a melee DPS career can, which means that while your damage may not be higher, you can sustain it on a target for longer periods of time before having to retreat, which balances out the damage output between the two archetypes.

Tanks are not mere meat shields as you would suggest. In PvP, the only way to achieve "aggro" is by being an obvious threat at all times.The act of taking down opponents is not a sole quality of DPS careers. DPS careers serve for purposes of strategic pressure and superior spiking capabilities, for which they sacrifice survivability.

[Xyphos]

I'm going on several years experience of being a target caller in an entirely PVP game. Whether or not you agree with my choices for what consists as a prime target, I honestly don't care; your opinion doesn't matter to me at all. I stick by everything I have said, whether or not you agree, so continue to argue opinion... it's a battle neither of us will win. Just please for future reference don't put words in my mouth; if I meant tanks were meat shields, I would've used the term.

[Lucrece]

I'm going on several years experience of being a target caller in an entirely PVP game. Whether or not you agree with my choices for what consists as a prime target, I honestly don't care; your opinion matters little to me. I stick by everything I have said, whether or not you agree, so continue to argue opinion... it's a battle neither of us will win. Just please for future reference don't put words in my mouth; if I meant tanks were meat shields, I would've used the term.

No need to repeat the same statements when there's nothing for you left to say. As you care very little for my "opinion", I care very little for your background.

For future reference, implication is just as important as the exact words used in your post. If you want to keep up this Big Brother theory of people purposely twisting your words and whatnot, feel free to carry on with the paranoia. It has become pretty pointless to try to get a point across when you willfully ignore the intent of my posts.

Either way, this is too good a thread to get it locked by pointlessly bickering with someone who found it worthwhile to presume about my intentions and imply some agenda on my part. When you have some other objection besides imagining hidden motives behind my posts, feel free to bring them up.

[Slash]

Stop stirring mischief Lurcece :p.

On Topic: In my opinion grudge isn't a complete necessity as such. If you have 100 grudge, thats great. However it doesn't mean if you are caught hosting no grudge you will be at a loss. I am sure that Ironbreakers will be a threat totally regardless of their current grudge (except to Sorceresses).

[Lucrece]

Stop stirring mischief Lurcece :p.

On Topic: In my opinion grudge isn't a complete necessity as such. If you have 100 grudge, thats great. However it doesn't mean if you are caught hosting no grudge you will be at a loss. I am sure that Ironbreakers will be a threat totally regardless of their current grudge (except to Sorceresses).

Pssh, talk about stirring trouble, with all that career fanboyism/fangirlism ;).

[Xyphos]

On Topic: In my opinion grudge isn't a complete necessity as such. If you have 100 grudge, thats great. However it doesn't mean if you are caught hosting no grudge you will be at a loss. I am sure that Ironbreakers will be a threat totally regardless of their current grudge (except to Sorceresses).

Well I suppose that entirely depends on how well Mythics archetype thing-a-ma-jig works. But I'd imagine 100 grudge would make you scarier then 0.

[Slash]

Pssh, talk about stirring trouble, with all that career fanboyism/fangirlism ;).

I'm allowed to cause trouble :p. The heretics warranted it.

[Slash]

Well I suppose that entirely depends on how well Mythics archetype thing-a-ma-jig works. But I'd imagine 100 grudge would make you scarier then 0.

I'm sure it would. All I mentioned was an Ironbreaker doesn't need 100 grudge to be intimidating or effective. Grudge will help. However, I doubt it will be so vital you need close to 100 points of it to be a respectable opponent.

[Tro]

So what are the offensive aspects (not DPS, but rather how will they kill things)?
stun and run
could work

[Loekii]

Well, it really depends on what quantifies as 'ignorable'.

If the damage is so minimal, as to not really pose a threat, then some might call that 'ignorable'.