BG tank mechanics?

[iCanada]

How do you guys think a BG will be used to tank? Personally i would like BGs to have the basic squishy elf deal and be based on parry/dodge with little mitigation comparitivly to other tanks, while shedding out more damage than other tanks.

I dont think we should be able to compete DPS wise with say, a witch elve, but comparitivly... I think a halberd/glaive/scary-metal-thing-on-a-stick would do a hell of a lot more damage than a sword+shield... and according to previous videos BG's are suposedly unstopable phsycopathic killing machines.

IMO, they should have a balanced attack power in comparison, but squishier to compensate.

What do you guys think the Black Guard will be like?

[Foofmonger]

Since we have so little info on the class.

I expect it to be somewhat offensive, obviously just due to the design. I expect them to have powerful melee attacks, but obviously not the dps of a melee dps class, like you describe.

They aren't going to be uber burst damage class. They probably use hatred for stronger abilities, and that requires a significant amount to build up and use. They will probably be very powerful for periods of time (while they have a lot of hatred) and less so when they don't have any hatred.

Obviously, you are going to be able to use both 2h weapons and swords and shields. Both will probably have unique attacks depending on the situation. As per the third mastery, I have no idea besides something to do with hatred based abilities/generation, but that seems like a pretty-underwhelming path idea to me.

[iCanada]

Yeah, i would like to think we could shell out damage, perhaps some kind of anti-tank stance in which we rapidly lose HP, and become very squishy and gain huge offensive burst for a quick moment. Call it like Cold Blooded Rage or something.

Unless the BG ends up being a simple damage sponge like the average tank i definetly think i will not play a BG, and instead go for a marauder because of their unique-ness.

[Nightsoldier]

Yeah, i would like to think we could shell out damage, perhaps some kind of anti-tank stance in which we rapidly lose HP, and become very squishy and gain huge offensive burst for a quick moment. Call it like Cold Blooded Rage or something.

Unless the BG ends up being a simple damage sponge like the average tank i definetly think i will not play a BG, and instead go for a marauder because of their unique-ness.

No tanks will be average in the way you describe it. All tanks will be able to spec for damage. There are many discussions on this already and all we can do is speculate on how much they can do but its been said that they hold their own at least.

On BGs mechanics Id like them to be more offensive then the other tanks and have their hatred mechanic help with dealing damage more then with tanking. Now it should help mitigate damage to but it should be focused on increasing damage IMO.

[iCanada]

I would agree with that.

[Mutters]

With the lack of information on the black guard, all I can theorize is about general tank mechanics and what we know. We know that black guards will be wielding a halberd, judging from the knockdown abilities and stuns that hammerers are getting, it seems as though different weapons are attaining different combat styles.

This would lead me to theorize halberds as having powerful melee ranged attacks, at least at a longer range than swords, what would make it very good for the Black Guard is if they where able to strike at a longer range than normal melee (the halberd being a reach weapon) as well as some pushback abilities to keep enemies just out of melee range. Couple this with an ability/style to be able to use the halberd sideways (like a quarterstaff) for a larger horizontal profile with collision detection blocking, multiple trip attacks, as well as using the hook part of the halberd for pushing, pulling, and throwing.

I would like to see the Black Guard become a tank not for his mitigation or his dodge, but for his reach being able to keep foes at a distance, which would make him a very tough opponent against all melee, but not as good against ranged. Still, he would be able to take lots of damage, but have a completely unique style of tanking.

Mutters

[iCanada]

With the lack of information on the black guard, all I can theorize is about general tank mechanics and what we know. We know that black guards will be wielding a halberd, judging from the knockdown abilities and stuns that hammerers are getting, it seems as though different weapons are attaining different combat styles.

This would lead me to theorize halberds as having powerful melee ranged attacks, at least at a longer range than swords, what would make it very good for the Black Guard is if they where able to strike at a longer range than normal melee (the halberd being a reach weapon) as well as some pushback abilities to keep enemies just out of melee range. Couple this with an ability/style to be able to use the halberd sideways (like a quarterstaff) for a larger horizontal profile with collision detection blocking, multiple trip attacks, as well as using the hook part of the halberd for pushing, pulling, and throwing.

I would like to see the Black Guard become a tank not for his mitigation or his dodge, but for his reach being able to keep foes at a distance, which would make him a very tough opponent against all melee, but not as good against ranged. Still, he would be able to take lots of damage, but have a completely unique style of tanking.

Mutters

I like this idea... brings much more skill and depth into tanking. Imo, we could even push AoE Hally attacks?

[Nightsoldier]

Id also like some butt end attacks with the halbred. One used well both sides can be deadly. The sharp end would be for cutting people into 3 pieces and the butt end would be for knockbacks and stuns. These would be used if someone gets in closer to a BG and the blade would be used to keep people away and kill them. So basicaly if they can keep someone away then they can do lots of damage but if someone gets in close then the BG has a chance to keep them at the end of his reach again.

Kind of expanding on what Mutters is saying with a little bit of my own flavour added.

[iCanada]

I love the specculating here. I love the idea of simply keeping the opponent "this close" allowing for enough hits to generate hatred, while letting us dominate them with knockbacks and AoE halberd slices.

[Mutters]

Honestly, I'd be suprised if they didn't give halberds a distinct range advantage, because what would be the point of a polearm weapon if it just hits at the same range as a sword? Its just bells, whistles and window dressing, which is completely meaningless. Weapons should have defining effects in combat. One of the reasons why polearms where even invented was against a cavalry charge, and why? Because of RANGE. Why is the phalanx powerful? Well, duh, yet again, the longspears had RANGE. Honestly, this is the closest thing we could have to a ranged tank in the game, and I'm all for it.

Mutters

[iCanada]

Honestly, I'd be suprised if they didn't give halberds a distinct range advantage, because what would be the point of a polearm weapon if it just hits at the same range as a sword? Its just bells, whistles and window dressing, which is completely meaningless. Weapons should have defining effects in combat. One of the reasons why polearms where even invented was against a cavalry charge, and why? Because of RANGE. Why is the phalanx powerful? Well, duh, yet again, the longspears had RANGE. Honestly, this is the closest thing we could have to a ranged tank in the game, and I'm all for it.

Mutters

Yeah, we could have moves such as an AoE pushback where we simply bash people with our class defining halberd.

If anything, it will be much slower/stronger. But the range advantage would be fairly win. IMO, all weapons shouldnt have a base range on type. It should be on weapon. For example: short Hallys and long swords.

[Foofmonger]

Honestly, I'd be suprised if they didn't give halberds a distinct range advantage, because what would be the point of a polearm weapon if it just hits at the same range as a sword? Its just bells, whistles and window dressing, which is completely meaningless. Weapons should have defining effects in combat. One of the reasons why polearms where even invented was against a cavalry charge, and why? Because of RANGE. Why is the phalanx powerful? Well, duh, yet again, the longspears had RANGE. Honestly, this is the closest thing we could have to a ranged tank in the game, and I'm all for it.

Mutters

While its a nice idea, I sincerely doubt this would ever happen.

Maybe for a few specific abilities it would be cool though, but from what we know of WARs combat system, if a BG had a permanent super reach, they would be retardedly overpowered.

[iCanada]

While its a nice idea, I sincerely doubt this would ever happen.

Maybe for a few specific abilities it would be cool though, but from what we know of WARs combat system, if a BG had a permanent super reach, they would be retardedly overpowered.

He isnt talking SUPER reach... he is talking 2-3 yards more than swords. IMO, im all for it. AND if you wanted to counter balance it you could make BG's unusually slow. Not that i would liek it..

Its not really that hard to balance most things. People just lack insight and tear it from their minds. And lets be honest... Halberds actually ARE 2 yards longer than swords..

=P

[Foofmonger]

He isnt talking SUPER reach... he is talking 2-3 yards more than swords. IMO, im all for it. AND if you wanted to counter balance it you could make BG's unusually slow. Not that i would liek it..

Its not really that hard to balance most things. People just lack insight and tear it from their minds. And lets be honest... Halberds actually ARE 2 yards longer than swords..

=P

Like I said, I think its a cool idea.

But the chances of it actually happening seem like zip to me, for balance reasons. Its hard to balance the fact that one tank class arbitrarily gets longer reach then any other melee class in the game.

[Martinus]

I realise we have very little to talk about, but why does it seem that on all class boards, there is always one topic about a given class that is sort of beaten to death.

If you go to Magus forum, half of the threads are about the Disc. Here, 60% is about Hatred. Sheesh.

[Tro]

i hope they get a block and damage reflect ability

[Ravanos]

eh i hope they aren't avoidance tanks ... they never seem to work correctly as most group would rather go with the consistency of a "normal" mitigation tank over a tank that is highly dependant on the RNG aka luck.

I think BG MAY have a bit more dodge/parry that other tanks and less mitigation but I don't think they will be based competely off the avoidance model.

[Vahris]

I really do like the idea of the BG having some sort of range advantage by using a Halberd. It would be an interesting idea. I am not sure how well a ranged tank would work though. Let's hope they're testing it out!

I still hope they are changing the way Hatred works though. I am scared to death of BG just being a pass-over class, where players learn to just root/snare you and run off to fight more threatening classes since they need to attack you to cause increase in hatred as it has been stated. I hope Hatred becomes more complex than that because I see a lot of really cool mechanics for the other tanks.

[iCanada]

While its a nice idea, I sincerely doubt this would ever happen.

Maybe for a few specific abilities it would be cool though, but from what we know of WARs combat system, if a BG had a permanent super reach, they would be retardedly overpowered.

Not PERMANENT... just while hally is in main hands... weapon range isnt anything new.. It has been around since D2.

Spears were 3 feet, polearms 2.5, 2 handed axes/maces/swords were 2, 1 handed axes/maces/swords were 1.5, and daggers were 1.

It would be fairly simple to just add a range multiplier to EVERY weapon then it wouldnt be OP, and besides, they could just take some mitigation.

I think it would be EVEN cooler if you could attack over fences and stuff... but... thats besides the point.

[Foofmonger]

Not PERMANENT... just while hally is in main hands... weapon range isnt anything new.. It has been around since D2.


Thats permanent as far as im concered (when you have the weapon equipped, a permanent range boost is a permanent range boost).

I know its not new, I just don't think it fits in with WARs design. Diablo 2 isn't even a 3d game, nor an MMO, hardly a fair comparison.



It would be fairly simple to just add a range multiplier to EVERY weapon then it wouldnt be OP, and besides, they could just take some mitigation.


It would actually be rather complicated to add a range difference for every single weapon, then entirely rebalance the combat system based on this. I'm looking foward to WAR coming out this year, a complete rebalancing act of the entire combat system = futher delays easily.


I think it would be EVEN cooler if you could attack over fences and stuff... but... thats besides the point.

I think the idea is cool, and I like it. However, I am trying to be realistic here. I don't see it happening with WAR.

[Mutters]

I don't see how a range advantage is out of balance. Each tank class will have a different style of tanking. If you look at it in the way of mitigation, there are many kinds of mitigation there are:

Soak mitigation - it is mitigation that involves high hitpoints. Compared to a MDPS, who has less hitpoints, the percentage that is taken off is a smaller percentage (10 damage out of 30 hp, compared to 10 damage out of 100 hp) You just soak that damage.

Reduction mitigation - This is ignoring damage, primarily from armor. An Orc hits a wizard for 10 damage, the wizard takes 9, An orc hits a tank, the tank takes 5, mitigating 5 damage. This can also be shield blocking or glancing blow modifiers, anything that reduces the raw damage recieved.

Avoidance mitigation - This is ignoring damage because it does not hit, based on misses, dodges, parries, and any other defensive skill that causes total mitigation.

Pre-Emptive Mitigation - Movement speed to avoid a fight, in combat mobility (coupled with avoidance mitigation), stats that reduce criticals, things like that. These are preperatory spells/skills that are passive that reduce criticals, damage percentages BEFORE any damage is calculated. These are a huge cloud of theory in how effective they are, because all of that math is calculated before any numbers show up.

Offensive Mitigation (coupled with time mitigation, see below) - This is coupled with time mitigation because it is an offensive weapon used to mitigate damage through time. Let's say an Orc is swinging his choppa on a 2 second swing, 10 damage. in 20 seconds he does 100 damage. An Ironbreaker stuns him for 2 seconds, essentially mitigating 10 damage. If the Ironbreaker stuns or knocks down the Orc for 8 seconds of that 20, he has effectively mitigated 40% of the damage that would have been recieved. This is also called Stun, Knockdown, or Crowd Control Mitigation. Side note: This can also include range. You can hit them, they cannot hit you.

Time Mitigation - Through the use of offensive mitigation, snares, slows, roots, crowd control, stuns or anything that interrupts the flow of an enemy's combat is considered time mitigation. As seen in the Offensive Mitigation section, you mitigate damage through the enemy's inability to enact such damage. Time mitigation is also of a broader sense in that it covers healing, running away from a battle to regen hitpoints, debuffs, and other tactics used to prolong a battle.

Now, after the dissertation, let's group our tanks up:

Ironbreaker is a heavy Soak/Reduction tank. He might have some Offensive and Pre-Emptive mitigation thrown in as well, but if you're looking for the iconic big armor, high hitpoints tank, this guy is it. From the sources I've gleaned he will be the highest physical damage mitigation tank in the game.

Black Orc will be a Soak/Reduction tank, though he will primarily be an Offensive mitigation tank heavy with stuns, knockdowns, and dirty fighting abilities. BlOrc should be the best Offensive Tank.

KotBS is also a Soak/Reduction tank, though his specialty will be in Time mitigation (buff auras) KotBS will be interesting to watch, not much we know about him yet, but I believe that he will make quite a bit of difference in group play through his auras. I wouldn't expect to see a KotBS running solo anywhere.

Chaos Chosen is actually a mirror of the KotBS, though his specialty is in Negative Time mitigation (debuffs) This should be interesting watching Time mitigation battles against each other. I think that the Empire/Chaos battlefront will be more of a war of attrition than Dwarf/Orc (I know this is an unpopular stance, but time mitigation is THE attrition tactic. Think WoW Paladin and you see the best Time mitigation tank of all time)

Swordmaster has been said to be an Avoidance tank. I believe that due to the magical nature of elves, he will be a better magical resistance tank than Dwarf/Orc (highly physical battlefront) or Knight/Chosen. Should be interesting to see how the elves turn out, though I suspect very quick fights. You take a person who is an avoidance tank and he falls to a lucky crit. These same people who have the dexterity to avoid damage through dodging and whatnot, usually have a higher chance of critical strikes as well. It should be interesting to see how quickly the elven masters of arms cut each other to pieces.

Black Guard - We don't know much about these guys, but I believe they will be a little bit of Soak (they wear a lot heavier armor than the high elves), a little bit of avoidance mitigation, and a little bit of specialized offensive mitigation. What I see them as is using the halberd as a "ground control" mechanism, much like in battles where people historically used polearms to keep an enemy at a longer range.

I'm not saying the Black Guard will always keep people at arms reach, but they should have skills that have "pushback", and sweeping attacks to "clear some space" in front of them in an arc, as a halberd is meant to do, tripping attacks, or hooking and throwing attacks. All of these are specialties of the weapon, and make the Black Guard unique in being a "ground control" tank, the least of which has the Capability of striking from a longer range than other melee. Do not misread me, gentlemen. Just because the witch elf has the capability to do massive damage on a first attack does not make it overpowered. It is balanced within a time frame of availability. I'm saying that the Black Guard could be unique in its ability to "clear the air" around himself to a greater degree, limited by time and other constraints.

Thank you for your time.
Mutters

[iCanada]

Great reply mutters. I was thinking something liek that but was being lazy and decided to go to sleep.

And for all you know, weapon ranges allready are in the game.

=P

[Pandemonium]

It's said that Black Guards use hatred to fuel their special abilities, and they earn hatred by people hitting them. I'm curious to how their going to be able to tank. If hitting them makes them stronger, then wouldn't people want to avoid them completely and go and attack his team mates? It seems that the hatred mechanic is working against the purpose of a tank.

[Mutters]

I think that's precisely the point behind a "ground control" tank. Put a Black Guard in a bottleneck with his halberd and RDPS behind him and you're going to HAVE to take him down, get near him and he'll use his trip, sweeping, knockback attacks to control his threaten space, but by attacking him, you power him up for stronger attacks. In the open field, its not that he is a huge threat damage wise (though a halberd is a two-hander and he probably will do pretty good damage) but he will be so ANNOYING with arc attacks, sweeping attacks and basicaly AoE (cone shaped type of stuff) attacks that jumble your party around that you will HAVE to focus on him or he'll just movement control you into a worse tactical position.

Mutters

[Slash]

I think that's precisely the point behind a "ground control" tank. Put a Black Guard in a bottleneck with his halberd and RDPS behind him and you're going to HAVE to take him down, get near him and he'll use his trip, sweeping, knockback attacks to control his threaten space, but by attacking him, you power him up for stronger attacks. In the open field, its not that he is a huge threat damage wise (though a halberd is a two-hander and he probably will do pretty good damage) but he will be so ANNOYING with arc attacks, sweeping attacks and basicaly AoE (cone shaped type of stuff) attacks that jumble your party around that you will HAVE to focus on him or he'll just movement control you into a worse tactical position.

Mutters

Perfect example. This makes WAR sound exciting.

[iCanada]

Perfect example. This makes WAR sound exciting.

Agreed. This guy should be a dev.

<3 mutters.

[Mutters]

I've been a developer on a Text Based MUD for 7 and a half years now. Problems like this are old hat by now. :)

[Schwarzork]

quoted by myself
Just think about skills which require an emtpy hate bar, which are realy powerful, so that your pvp enemies have to decide if they ignore you and get into real problems or if they give you hate...


This would be just my solution for the "hatred" problem. Because i realy think that noone would power up a tank just because he is annonying! Everybody would prever to CC him...

[Foofmonger]

I'm totally down for the BG having pushbacks, knockdowns, and aoe/ground control moves.

However, I still think that giving them extra range on all attacks would not be balanced, and is not going to happen.

It would require an entirely re-balancing of the combat system. All 2h tanks would need a significant range boost to compensate, which creates further balance problems not just between 2h tanks and S/B tanks, but with 2h tanks and melee DPS.

[iCanada]

I'm totally down for the BG having pushbacks, knockdowns, and aoe/ground control moves.

However, I still think that giving them extra range on all attacks would not be balanced, and is not going to happen.

It would require an entirely re-balancing of the combat system. All 2h tanks would need a significant range boost to compensate, which creates further balance problems not just between 2h tanks and S/B tanks, but with 2h tanks and melee DPS.

Umm, but it wouldnt... They would simply have to just move forward for one second longer.

[Foofmonger]

Umm, but it wouldnt... They would simply have to just move forward for one second longer.

But it would, you have to look at things from a group perspective, and not solo.

If you have 6 BGs in the frontline, they all have halbreds, and all have extra range + pushback/knockdown/control moves.

what the hell is the order side going to do. All their melee classes that run up will never even reach the BGs, let alone be able to break through them. You also run into issues where you can stack a row of tanks in front of a row of BGs, and all have them meeling anyone who gets in their range.

I mean, it could be balanced of course, but it would mean an ENTIRE re-balancing of the combat system. I just don't see it happening.

I'm all for a few attacks that have extra range, but not every single one, sorry.

[iCanada]

But it would, you have to look at things from a group perspective, and not solo.

If you have 6 BGs in the frontline, they all have halbreds, and all have extra range + pushback/knockdown/control moves.

what the hell is the order side going to do. All their melee classes that run up will never even reach the BGs, let alone be able to break through them. You also run into issues where you can stack a row of tanks in front of a row of BGs, and all have them meeling anyone who gets in their range.

I mean, it could be balanced of course, but it would mean an ENTIRE re-balancing of the combat system. I just don't see it happening.

I'm all for a few attacks that have extra range, but not every single one, sorry.

How do you know that weapon ranges aren't allready in the game? For all you know the combat system is allready balanced around that.

[Foofmonger]

How do you know that weapon ranges aren't allready in the game? For all you know the combat system is allready balanced around that.

From all the videos that show the same exact range?

[iCanada]

From all the videos that show the same exact range?

It is hard to tell the rang from all the videos. Who knows, atm everything is PURE sepculation.

I'll go make a weapon range topic in the general gameplay section.