Choppa Info On Bezerk!

[Warhammeronlinemagus]

Hi

Does anyone have any info on the bezerk move for the Choppa?

I mean I know nothing bout it (or the choppa)
Does the 'bezerk' move cost action points? if yes how many?
Does improve the normal melee damage you do?

Any other news on The Orc Choppa will be gratefully accepted

:p

[Orthon]

Here's some info: http://www.war-resource.com/careers/choppa.php

[Newber]

So pretty much, you can only use berserk when you're already berserk. Sorry brah.

[Orthon]

Right, they remade the whole thing. That's really outdated. I forgot.

[Foofmonger]

It works much like a Hammerers momentum I believe.

I.e. you build up the points (mom, berz) and then spend them for attacks.

[Dunhill]

It works much like a Hammerers momentum I believe.

I.e. you build up the points (mom, berz) and then spend them for attacks.

Except Momentum hasnt been implemented yet and we know nothing about it.

[Foofmonger]

Except Momentum hasnt been implemented yet and we know nothing about it.

Except what they told us in the past?

We know a little about it, I wouldn't say "nothing".

[Torcher999]

Except Momentum hasnt been implemented yet and we know nothing about it.

Apart from that the Hammerer has abilities to build and spend it and that momentum disspates with time we really know nothing about it :p

[Gemini]

It works much like a Hammerers momentum I believe.

I.e. you build up the points (mom, berz) and then spend them for attacks.

Foof, havn't we gone over this on other threads before? From the latest videos (which aren't really all tha recent), beserk is actually just an ability that the Choppa activates to buff themselves and unlock and empower all sorts of different abilities.

[Foofmonger]

Foof, havn't we gone over this on other threads before? From the latest videos (which aren't really all tha recent), beserk is actually just an ability that the Choppa activates to buff themselves and unlock and empower all sorts of different abilities.

Yea we have gone over this, but I like to stick with my theory lol, because thats a terrible mechanic, a single stance, stance system is somewhat lame.

[Dunhill]

Apart from that the Hammerer has abilities to build and spend it and that momentum disspates with time we really know nothing about it :p

Links or screenshots please. I want to know where you're getting this.

[Rehk]

right now Berserk is an activatable 20 second duration, 60 second cooldown ability, that when activated gates the use of several Berserk Only skills.

Duration and Cooldown most likely have some flexibility based on tactics.

As far as this being a "lame" mechanic, speak for yourself cause I think its amazing.

As far as momentum is concerned, based on the data available to us at *this* point, the two mechanics are very different.

[Foofmonger]

right now Berserk is an activatable 20 second duration, 60 second cooldown ability, that when activated gates the use of several Berserk Only skills.

Duration and Cooldown most likely have some flexibility based on tactics.

As far as this being a "lame" mechanic, speak for yourself cause I think its amazing.


How is it amazing? Please explain this to me. You have a single stance button that can be used 1/3 of the time. Wow, that is so innovative and takes so much skill to use properly.

The only people who think that mechanic is amazing are people who can't handle doing anything more then hitting 1 button every 60 seconds.

If the Berserk mechanic is implemented in this way, more likely then not, Choppas will be known as the "n00b" class (at least for melee DPS). They don't need to manage different stances, any kind of point build up or management, or any kind of really fun unique mechanic.

I really hope Mythic changes their minds on this one.

[Bhanqwa]

How is it amazing? Please explain this to me. You have a single stance button that can be used 1/3 of the time. Wow, that is so innovative and takes so much skill to use properly.

The only people who think that mechanic is amazing are people who can't handle doing anything more then hitting 1 button every 60 seconds.

If the Berserk mechanic is implemented in this way, more likely then not, Choppas will be known as the "n00b" class (at least for melee DPS). They don't need to manage different stances, any kind of point build up or management, or any kind of really fun unique mechanic.

I really hope Mythic changes their minds on this one.

The part in bold was uncalled for.
What you like or don't like doesn't make you a noob that can't handle buttons.
The right timing of berserk may be equally or even more difficult then having it available at all times, remember it not only increases damage output but also lowers your armor/resistances.

[Foofmonger]

The part in bold was uncalled for.

That is your opinion. I don't agree.


What you like or don't like doesn't make you a noob that can't handle buttons.


It isn't about what I like. It is about the sheer simplicity of the mechanic.


The right timing of berserk may be equally or even more difficult then having it available at all times,


Timing a single ability is not hard, in any way shape or form.


remember it not only increases damage output but also lowers your armor/resistances.

And unlocks more abilities. Isn't it going to be fun playing a class that can only use their best abilities 1/3 of the time at the most?

[Bhanqwa]

That is your opinion. I don't agree.
What you claim in the bolded line is people who like the mechanic must be retards that can't handle complexity, a skilled pianist liking simple tunes is still skilled.

It isn't about what I like. It is about the sheer simplicity of the mechanic.
The mechanic being simple doesn't mean that people who like it are simpletons as I allready explained.

Timing a single ability is not hard, in any way shape or form.
That's your opinion. I don't agree.

And unlocks more abilities.
I meant the berserk increases damage because of those abilities...

Isn't it going to be fun playing a class that can only use their best abilities 1/3 of the time at the most?
Is this part where I'm supposed to say "the only people who think that mechanic is lame are the ones that can't handle having their best abilities only available 1/3 of the time?

[Foofmonger]

What you claim in the bolded line is people who like the mechanic must be retards that can't handle complexity, a skilled pianist liking simple tunes is still skilled.


A skilled pianist who chooses to settle for simple tunes when he knows he can play better ones maybe be skilled, but if he isn't using his potential, then it isn't an issue.

If Babe Ruth never played professional baseball, and was a factory worker who just played it with his friends, do you honestly think people would have considered him skilled? Probably not.


The mechanic being simple doesn't mean that people who like it are simpletons as I allready explained.
Duh. But it does mean that people who like it are settling for a boring and skill-less mechanic.



I meant the berserk increases damage because of those abilities...
Hell it may even increase base damage as well.


Is this part where I'm supposed to say "the only people who think that mechanic is lame are the ones that can't handle having their best abilities only available 1/3 of the time?If you desire I suppose. I guess I can't handle having a gimp mechanic that takes no skill to use properly. I guess I can't handle playing a class that requires absolutely no thought to play to its full potential.

And since I'm playing a marauder, I can very well handle only having 1/3 of my abilities at any given time. It just sucks that Choppas apparently don't even get a tactical choice involved.

Having a single button that can be used 1/3 of the time at most as you entire mechanic is weak. There is no counter-argument, its weak from both a design standpoint, and a players standpoint. I seriously hope Mythic reconsiders this boring and uninspiring mechanics choice.

And although your opinion may be that timing a single ability will be "difficult", it doesn't make it anywhere near accurate. Opinions, while not facts, can be based on logical evidence. Please articulate to me how timing a single ability will be difficult, compared to any of the other classes that will be in WAR. Please explain to me how hitting a single hotkey at the proper time is difficult, because last I checked, timing a single ability at the right time is not only pathetically easy, but required to play any class in any MMO decently well.

[Axxar]

I agree with Foof that if berserk worked like that it would be really boring and silly, and certainly not up to par with the other career mechanics in any way. There's nothing wrong with liking a very simple play style - hey, I played Diablo myself. But honestly in a game like this it's a bit crap. In my mind it's a given that it isn't going to work like that.

[Gemini]

I too agree that it's a pretty lame mechanic, I think they could do a lot better.

[Tyranus]

I think the idea for it is incredible. It's not a stance system as it is in WoW so that argument goes through the window really. For 20 seconds you can do some incredible abilities that render you a godly DPS machine. What's so bad about it being on a cooldown? It's quick to work and it's only on a 60 second cooldown. I should imagine it really opens up a lot of great strategies in PvP/RvR and PvE.

It's really not that big of a deal anyway, and you can't say it's far too simple because you're playing a half-retarded barbarian that likes to swing swords. melee dps isn't supposed to be complicated and doing insane amounts of DPS should be on a timer not constantly for ez-mode.

[Torcher999]

Links or screenshots please. I want to know where you're getting this.

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Dwarfs/Careers/Hammerer.php


Momentum builds as the Hammerer attacks, and as it accumulates he can strike stronger and stronger blows. However, his most powerful blows can start to slow him down, reducing his momentum upon impact.

It’s important that you plan ahead within the fight. When your enemy falls to your hammer you must keep your momentum going or risk losing it. This means you must always be on the lookout for another target to engage even as you break out of your current fight.

[Foofmonger]

I think the idea for it is incredible. It's not a stance system as it is in WoW so that argument goes through the window really.


What the hell are you talking about, nobody is saying that its a WoW stance system?


For 20 seconds you can do some incredible abilities that render you a godly DPS machine. What's so bad about it being on a cooldown? It's quick to work and it's only on a 60 second cooldown. I should imagine it really opens up a lot of great strategies in PvP/RvR and PvE.


You really don't understand do you? Its not "bad" because it is on a cooldown. Its a terrible mechanic because its far too simple. Compare this mechanic with every other class in the game, and explain to me which classes mechanics can be achieved by simple pressing 1 button less then once a minute?


It's really not that big of a deal anyway, and you can't say it's far too simple because you're playing a half-retarded barbarian that likes to swing swords.


I can say its far too simple, you are using a fairly weak realism argument here. I guess there should be no "magic", and no different races besides humans because that wouldn't be a big deal right?

Regardless, just because Orcs aren't smart doesn't mean the classes need to be designed so literally, retarded people can play them.


melee dps isn't supposed to be complicated and doing insane amounts of DPS should be on a timer not constantly for ez-mode.

Its supposed to be fun to play and I assure you, your entire mechanic being some lame 1 button push is not going to be fun for anyone who likes a challenge.

[LookinGreen]

I thought beserk lasted 20 secs if you used no skills and you had to use certain skills to make beserk last longer. So for instance you used a skill that did less dmg but increased your time in beserk so you had to use the right combination of skills to stay in beserk. Whether or not it's considered noob or not I'll still end up playing the class, I just hope people don't cry about it if they die from anybody playing a Choppa.

[Foofmonger]

I thought beserk lasted 20 secs if you used no skills and you had to use certain skills to make beserk last longer.


That may be the case, but we definitely don't have confirmation of that.


So for instance you used a skill that did less dmg but increased your time in beserk so you had to use the right combination of skills to stay in beserk.


That would be an improvement over the current mechanic outlined at least, although not that much.

[Gemini]

If it was an actual struggle to keep beserk going I might like it. For example, you have a little bar at the bottom that slowly goes down as time goes on, but certain things (abilities, getting critted, ect) brought it back up a little. However, it slowly drains faster and faster and you have to struggle to keep beserk. However, I'm afraid it would just end up with us spamming the *builds beserk* abilities over and over.

[Rehk]

I, personally, like this mechanic because it reminds me of DAoC Berserkers.

I find it funny you havn't considered what tactics might be available to enhance the capabilities of berserk, its duration, or its cooldown.

I also find it funny that you would label a class that uses "1 button" as a noob class...

I suppose marauders are going to required gods among men with their <gasp> "3 button" mechanic?

Berserk is a classic mechanic thats found its way into virtually every MMO to date in various forms. Why fix what isn't broken?

Just because you think this mechanic does not require as much skill as another does not warrant it as having any less of a legitiment value.

[Rehk]

Lets take a look at comparing the simplicity of the mechanics right now of Marauders and Choppas;

Choppas berserk gives them major dmg bonus capablities at the cost of defensive capabilities.
Has a visable effect. Most likely going to be targetted heavily when switched to Berserk.

Marauder - 3 mutations, which from the new video can be used much much quicker than the old 3-5 second mutation time...now its about 0-1 second. As far as we know these moves have unlimited duration, no defensive penalties, and the only tactical decision to be made is which mutation to pick that is most befitting of the situation.

The breakdown:

Choppa : must use berserk wisely, based on battlefield awareness, much use at a good time or he'll be focus fired down with ease when berserked.

Marauder: must choose the right mutation at the right time.

You say Berserk is noob, but where im sitting, both are pretty easy to use.

[LookinGreen]

Well I'm hoping the mechanic works the way I thought: were skills add to the length of beserk. That way you have to balance +time skills with dps skills to optimize dps. If not no biggy I've always been a fan of beserking classes so I'll play it anyways. Will it be viewed as the "newb" class, as atleast one class in every game always is viewed that way. Frankly I don't care.

[Foofmonger]

I, personally, like this mechanic because it reminds me of DAoC Berserkers.

Great.


I find it funny you havn't considered what tactics might be available to enhance the capabilities of berserk, its duration, or its cooldown.


You find it funny that I'm not completely speculating out of my and actually going on the information we have? How strange.


I also find it funny that you would label a class that uses "1 button" as a noob class...


What else would you label it as? Please, you still have yet to answer any of my initial questions.


I suppose marauders are going to required gods among men with their <gasp> "3 button" mechanic?


Having three completely different stances with completely different abilities is a lot more complicated, then 1 stance that can't even be kept up.


Berserk is a classic mechanic thats found its way into virtually every MMO to date in various forms. Why fix what isn't broken?


Because WAR isn't just about recylcing old and tired mechanics from past MMOs?


Just because you think this mechanic does not require as much skill as another does not warrant it as having any less of a legitiment value.

Yea it does actually.

[Tyranus]

What the hell are you talking about, nobody is saying that its a WoW stance system?



You really don't understand do you? Its not "bad" because it is on a cooldown. Its a terrible mechanic because its far too simple. Compare this mechanic with every other class in the game, and explain to me which classes mechanics can be achieved by simple pressing 1 button less then once a minute?



I can say its far too simple, you are using a fairly weak realism argument here. I guess there should be no "magic", and no different races besides humans because that wouldn't be a big deal right?

Regardless, just because Orcs aren't smart doesn't mean the classes need to be designed so literally, retarded people can play them.



Its supposed to be fun to play and I assure you, your entire mechanic being some lame 1 button push is not going to be fun for anyone who likes a challenge.


I don't think you're really looking at what the mechanic is. You're getting very angry over people not agreeing with your assumption, since that is all anybody has at the moment. You've replied in a hostile manner to most people who have said it's an alright mechanic and that it will be fun to use berzerk. At most all i'm doing is assuming and hoping for the best and you're doing the same and looking at the worst, so there's no point in getting into an argument over it.

Also berzerk is still not really a stance. It's a 20 second crossover from 1 set of abilities to another. Whether or not you're only allowed a half dozen abilities in this stance is still unknown as some only say "Only while Berserk" and the base abilities don't say "Not Usable while Berserk". So again it's only speculation on either side atm, but it can be made into a fun and useful mechanic as that site is seriously outdated and doesn't have all the information yet for even beta.

[Foofmonger]

Choppa : must use berserk wisely, based on battlefield awareness, much use at a good time or he'll be focus fired down with ease when berserked.

Marauder: must choose the right mutation at the right time.

You say Berserk is noob, but where im sitting, both are pretty easy to use.

First of all, lets summarize what you are saying here...

Choppa: Must use Berserk at the right time.

Marauder: Must choose the right mutation at the right time.

I'm sorry you felt like twisting words around to make it seem like Berserk required some kind of battlefield awareness that choosing a mutation doesn't. The fact remains is that they both fall into the same exact criteria here.

Heres the big difference, the Marauder has 3 mutations which he can choose from. That means he needs to make tactical choices about what to use at certain times. The Choppa does not have this option. He forever only has one choice, the only "player input" (can't even call it skill), required is to hit a single button at a good time. I'm sorry, but thats required to play any class in any MMO ever. The Choppas mechanic is about as lazy as simple as it possibly could be. In fact, I don't think you could develop a more simplistic mechanic if you tried. I guess you could make it so you never had to even hit the button, and the game decides when you go Berserk, thats about the only way you could dumb it down further.

[Foofmonger]

I don't think you're really looking at what the mechanic is. You're getting very angry over people not agreeing with your assumption, since that is all anybody has at the moment. You've replied in a hostile manner to most people who have said it's an alright mechanic and that it will be fun to use berzerk. At most all i'm doing is assuming and hoping for the best and you're doing the same and looking at the worst, so there's no point in getting into an argument over it.

Also berzerk is still not really a stance. It's a 20 second crossover from 1 set of abilities to another. Whether or not you're only allowed a half dozen abilities in this stance is still unknown as some only say "Only while Berserk" and the base abilities don't say "Not Usable while Berserk". So again it's only speculation on either side atm, but it can be made into a fun and useful mechanic as that site is seriously outdated and doesn't have all the information yet for even beta.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to speculate based on the information provided to me by Mythic. Thats kind of the point of having forums for a game that isn't even out yet.

If you don't like my opinion, thats fine, but I do have the ability to voice it, whether or not its popular, the status-quo, or in a disagreeing manner.

And I understand how the mechanic works, but thanks for trying to clarify something that I'm already aware of!

[LookinGreen]

So Foof finds the class dull, and all the Choppa fans jump on him. Who cares? Are you really that insecure taht everyone has to have your opinion? Its scary but I think I finally know how it feels to be an elf fan:(

[Browncoat-WHA]

There's a point to which people should agree to disagree and leave it at that. This thread is quickly getting to that point. Let's try to dial it down a bit, shall we?

[Rehk]

You find it funny that I'm not completely speculating out of my and actually going on the information we have? How strange.

Chop 'Im Again 1 ? Your Berserk lasts _ second(s) longer. AWG
Shrug 'Em Off! 1 ? Your chance to dodge is increased by 25% while Berserk.

http://www.war-resource.com/careers/choppa.php

I'm sorry, but I'm going to speculate based on the information provided to me by Mythic. Thats kind of the point of having forums for a game that isn't even out yet.

We do have information that can modify berserk. And like you said...speculating is kinda of the point of having forums.

Because WAR isn't just about recylcing old and tired mechanics from past MMOs?

And stances aren't tired and used?

Your main gripes about berserk seem to be that its only 1 button, and cant be used all the time.

However Id call a mechanic that can be used ALL the time, and has no defensive penalties just as simple.

If anything the marauder mechanic is far more forgiving and flexible in its use, you use the wrong mutation and so what? you do less dmg for a second <oops> change mutation.

You use Berserk at the wrong time, you burn a valued cooldown, and die.

[Foofmonger]

So Foof finds the class dull, and all the Choppa fans jump on him.


I really don't find the class dull though, it looks fairly interesting. I also have nothing against people who want to play Choppas.

I just think the current implementation of the Berserk mechanic is terrible. It is that simple, I have no prejudice against Choppas or their fans.

I liked a lot more the initial description of Berserk that we were given, in which it worked like a Hammerers momentum, building up over time and dissapating for certain abilities.

I think the new mechanic is pretty much a ridiculously dumbed down version that requires almost no skill. All you have to do is time one button press at a decent time (probably when you get up to someone and pop your snare/root immunity 90% of the time anyway).

I'm sorry If I have come off as offensive, or ridiculous, I tend to get overly passionate about stupid things.

[LookinGreen]

Ya when I talk about the class I usually mean the class mechanic as its the only thing that seperates classes besides the skin. I still believe we will have to juggle beserk lengthening and beserk dps skills to maxime duration and damge done while in beserk. But saying that also I wouldn't mind something a little more complicated then one button press.

Of course aswell eveything can be broken into routine if you want with slight variation because of deffirent situtations. Like combo system is nothing more than builder, builder, finisher and of course when you say it in the simplest of terms like that it sounds dull too.

On a completely off topic tangent I thought they dropped momentum for Hammerers and replaced it with various knockdown abilities and abilities that add damge to knocked down oppopnents because I havn't heard or seen momentum in use yet.

[Foofmonger]

Of course aswell eveything can be broken into routine if you want with slight variation because of deffirent situtations. Like combo system is nothing more than builder, builder, finisher and of course when you say it in the simplest of terms like that it sounds dull too.


See thats not my problem with the Berserk mechanic exactly. My problem with it is not really its simplicity, its the fact that beyond its simplicty, it doesn't get used very often.

Think about a combo point system, or anything any other melee dps has in the game (marauder stances, etc..), you have to constantly actively use it to play to your maximum potential. This gives player a feeling of interactivity and strategy that can apply to their character.

The Berserk mechanic, assuming that although it can be lengthened, it will start at base, would roughly be available to use only 33% of the time if you popped in every single time it came up. Since thats probably not going to be the case, that number could get obviously lower (if you do have to manage it and not just mash the button every time it comes up and you are fighting).

Not only that, but the act of using it isn't that interactive. You just hit a single button, and you get some new abilities for a short duration.

Now remember that this is your entire class mechanic, without it, you can't possibly play to your maximum potential. Think about how many times a Choppa player will die/lose a fight because they didn't have their zeking abilities available because they were down. The same cannot be said for other classes, including tanks. A marauder isn't going to lose because he couldn't get the right arm out, a witch elf isn't going to lose because they can't build and use frenzy abilities, and a swordmaster isn't going to lose because their balance system just stopped working.

I mean, you Choppa fans may dislike my opinion, and think I am trying to insult the class, but I'm actually trying to look out for you, and everyone else. I think that Mythic could do a lot better then the currently implemented mechanic.


On a completely off topic tangent I thought they dropped momentum for Hammerers and replaced it with various knockdown abilities and abilities that add damge to knocked down oppopnents because I havn't heard or seen momentum in use yet.

I thought they always had the knockdown abilities (as well as marauders), and that momentum was still the plan, albeit not yet implemented. I may be wrong, but I'm sure someone can enlighten us on this issue.

[Bhato]

Now remember that this is your entire class mechanic, without it, you can't possibly play to your maximum potential. Think about how many times a Choppa player will die/lose a fight because they didn't have their zeking abilities available because they were down. The same cannot be said for other classes, including tanks. A marauder isn't going to lose because he couldn't get the right arm out, a witch elf isn't going to lose because they can't build and use frenzy abilities, and a swordmaster isn't going to lose because their balance system just stopped working.


This is just my personal take on skill of players/difficulty of MMOs etc and why I think on paper the Choppa mechanic may sound boring but not necessarily so given the opportunity to experience the gameplay.

Very little in MMOs, to date, require "skill" or are actually difficult to play. After all you are sticky targeted and just mashing buttons. It is making the proper choices at the proper times that separates the "skilled" players from the unskilled and that brings me to why the Choppa's berserk mechanic doesnt sound so "noob" to me.

You said it yourself in the bolded portion of your quote and Rehk hit the nail on the head, "You use berserk at the wrong time, you burn a valued cool down, and die." I think highly situational abilities with long cool downs require a great deal of skill to use effectively.

I can picture myself sitting on the edge of my comp chair leaning into my computer screen, on edge, just waiting for that perfect window to open up so I can pop zerk and wreck key players in the opposing group. Sure you arent using 3 stances like the marauder but I think it will be no less engaging if not more.

Gota love beta forums. Arguements over speculation and opinions FTW :p

[LookinGreen]

Now remember that this is your entire class mechanic, without it, you can't possibly play to your maximum potential. Think about how many times a Choppa player will die/lose a fight because they didn't have their zeking abilities available because they were down. The same cannot be said for other classes, including tanks. A marauder isn't going to lose because he couldn't get the right arm out, a witch elf isn't going to lose because they can't build and use frenzy abilities, and a swordmaster isn't going to lose because their balance system just stopped working.

That makes a lot sense. In the end though I think there are just too many unknowns at this point. Its depends on so much: I know we will be weaker unberzerked but how much weaker? Are we far superior in DPS to every other class when bezerked? Is it possible to sustain being bezerked? What tactics if any effect bezerk and how? There are so many questions that we are unable to answer before we can start saying broken mechanic.

[Foofmonger]

You said it yourself in the bolded portion of your quote and Rehk hit the nail on the head, "You use berserk at the wrong time, you burn a valued cool down, and die." I think highly situational abilities with long cool downs require a great deal of skill to use effectively.

Gota love beta forums. Arguements over speculation and opinions FTW :p

I've covered most of this already, but I want to say one thing in response to the idea that Berserk will be highly situational in its current implementation. I really disagree with this.

Chances are, Berserk will be used in generally two different ways. The first will be the most common, and probably will account for 90% of choppa players. They will use zerk as soon as they get into melee combat and get a snare/stun on their opponent.

The second way would be to use it would be in an organized group, with a timed spike.

I don't consider that highly situational, or hard to time. Most Choppas will be popping zerk as soon as it comes up and they know that they will be in range to hit something.

Also, a 1 minute cooldown can hardly be considered long. Its about low/average in most MMO terms (compared to say, WoW or DAoC).

[Foofmonger]

That makes a lot sense. In the end though I think there are just too many unknowns at this point. Its depends on so much: I know we will be weaker unberzerked but how much weaker? Are we far superior in DPS to every other class when bezerked? Is it possible to sustain being bezerked? What tactics if any effect bezerk and how? There are so many questions that we are unable to answer before we can start saying broken mechanic.

There are a ton of variables, I totally agree. But even if you assume that all of them will be in the Choppa's favor, I still find it broken.

So lets say you aren't that much weaker un-zerked. That means you aren't much stronger zerked. This leads to a problem. If un-zerked is not that much weaker then zerked, then zerked becomes somewhat dull. Your entire class mechanic would be to get slightly stronger for a short duration.

Lets say you are much stronger zerked, this means that when you don't have zerk up, you are going to feel gimped. You are going to be frustrated every time you die because "zerk" wasn't up. This turns Choppas into one trick ponies basically, making it so that they need to be zerking to be effective.

Obviously, you could go for a balance between the two, which would be the best option, but it still leaves tons of potential problems.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say its impossible to stay zerked 100% of the time. That to me, seems highly unlikely. There are probably tactics to increase duration slightly, but I highly doubt it will permanently extend it. We have also heard not a single word of "zerk management" where you have to constantly try to keep it up.

I'm not going to rule out that there are a lot of variables to consider, but I'm trying to formulate a hypothesis based on the current information we have available to us.

[jaskey72]

look at him trying to tell us what is noobish when he played a hunter in wow

[Bhato]

I've covered most of this already, but I want to say one thing in response to the idea that Berserk will be highly situational in its current implementation. I really disagree with this.

As you have already speculated, if berserk being up or not will be a large determing factor in whether or not you die I would say that makes it pretty damn situational. Perhaps highly was a little to strong of a word.

Chances are, Berserk will be used in generally two different ways. The first will be the most common, and probably will account for 90% of choppa players. They will use zerk as soon as they get into melee combat and get a snare/stun on their opponent.

I suspect that the people who just spam the skill anytime its up will not be playing the class to its full potential. I think/hope Warhammer PvP will be a little more dynamic than this and these people will get worked by good players. A percentage of people using a skill poorly doesnt make the skill is poor.


The second way would be to use it would be in an organized group, with a timed spike.

I don't consider that highly situational, or hard to time. Most Choppas will be popping zerk as soon as it comes up and they know that they will be in range to hit something.

See above statement. Also, as far as timing, I wasnt refering to timing with your group (which, I agree, is easy). I was meaning that you must time the skill in response to the other groups actions which is a little more difficult in the heat of combat.

Also, a 1 minute cooldown can hardly be considered long. Its about low/average in most MMO terms (compared to say, WoW or DAoC).

I agree. Perhaps long wasnt quite what I was looking for. Using long and highly situational were pretty much in reponse to how I perceived you viewing the skill. I said highly situational because you yourself speculated that the skill being up or down could mean life or death for the Choppa and long timer b/c you were complaining that it would only be up, at best, 33% of the fight and not used that often.

I realize that alot of points are being re-hashed here. Its quite annoying when threads drag on for pages saying the same thing over and over. I generally try to avoid contributing to that. It just irked me that you took such an unbending stance on a class that we dont have all the specifics for and I had to try my hand at explaining it in a slightly different manner. I think its far to early to start calling the Choppa a noob class. I'm not even planing on playing a Choppa. Again, it was the rigidity of your stance that provoked my posting not to mention I find some of your points contradictory but its a topic becoming largely based on opinion so I guess you will have that. I will take my leave of the discussion and break out the ol' "we will just have to agree to disagree." ;)

[Foofmonger]

It just irked me that you took such an unbending stance on a class that we dont have all the specifics for and I had to try my hand at explaining it in a slightly different manner. I think its far to early to start calling the Choppa a noob class.

I'm not taking an unbending stance on a "class", nor am I calling the Choppa a "noob" class. I've been trying to clear this up for a while now, and I thought I did a good job in my recent posts. Apparently I have not clarified it enough.

I'm not trying to insinuate that the Choppa is a n00b class, or that people who want to play Choppas are anything (good or bad). I have always been talking in reference to the current implementation of the Berserk mechanic, and not the class as a whole, or its players.

You say I am being ridiculous, but I find everyone else who constantly misunderstands what I am trying to say as ridiculous. Obviously, this is all opinion, and chances are, just a big misunderstanding anyway.

As I stated above, what I am actually trying to do is look out for Choppas (as a class), and the people who want to play them. I was completely surprised with the stance that most Choppa players took, which was that I was somehow insulting them by not thinking that the current implementation of the class is the best thing ever. I see a huge number of potential problems, and a very weak application of the current mechanic, espescially in reference to the way the Berserk mechanic was orginaly understood to work.

What I was trying to say with the n00b comment (which wasn't even a big point I was trying to make), is that if the Berserk mechanic is indeed implemented the way we currently understand it to work, the Choppa will be the only melee class in WAR with a highly non-interactive mechanic. Every other class needs to be constantly managing something, from combo points, to stances, to auras, etc.. The Choppa would be the sole class that doesn't do any of these things, and basically would be a 1 button trick pony. Their entire mechanic would be to hit 1 button every minute or more. Thus, I made the logical connection that out of all the melee classes in the game, the Choppa would require the least amount of skill to properly play. I stand by this assertion, even now. I'd like to see a coherent argument where a situational and not very often single button press is either equal or more difficult to use then any system that has to be constantly managed (stances/combos/auras/etc). Again, I'm not calling the Choppa a n00b class, or Choppa players skill-less. However, from what we currently know about how the class operates, Mythic has designed them for the least skill oriented application. I.e. it will take much more work to play any other melee class in the game to its full potential, then it will take a Choppa from our current understanding of mechanics.

And obviously, in response to the comment you made about me taking a stance about something that we don't have a wealth of solid information on, thats kind of the point to be here before the game comes out. If nobody had stances on issues, there would be no discussions in this, or any other, beta forum. Furthermore, I believe everyone should be able to talk about potential problems they see based on the current information they have available. The only other options are to have no discussion, or base your argument on information that isn't available, both of which are highly less desirable in my mind at least.

[Button Basher]

Comparison of WoW inc:

So basically the mechanics of the Choppa is like the rage of a warrior? The longer u fight or get attacked u build up rage and u spend that rage for attacks?

As for the berzerker ability, it seems like a bonus, along with the hammerer the choppa is the most survivable MDPS class but with moderate damage, the berserker ability makes them less surviving but increases their DPS greatly.

I'd wish they didn't have a mechanic as WoW's rage but that can't be helped.

And for battle awareness of using your berzerker it's fairly simple, pop it when it's a group vs group situation, u have less chance to be targeted and there's less chance that it's gone wasted (like when there's only 1 stuntie and u pop it and it dies fast u still have like 15 seconds of onused berserker left)

A better mechanic could be that u build up rage and the more rage u get the more dps u do and when u reach a certain amount of rage Berserker becomes castable. (if this wasn't already the mechanic ofc)

Ofcourse this all is just my opinion.

PS: Correct me if I'm wrong on the mechanic of the choppa cause I didn't know for sure and I hope I am correctable (yes I really dislike the rage mechanic)

[Foofmonger]

Comparison of WoW inc:

So basically the mechanics of the Choppa is like the rage of a warrior? The longer u fight or get attacked u build up rage and u spend that rage for attacks?

As for the berzerker ability, it seems like a bonus, along with the hammerer the choppa is the most survivable MDPS class but with moderate damage, the berserker ability makes them less surviving but increases their DPS greatly.

I'd wish they didn't have a mechanic as WoW's rage but that can't be helped.

And for battle awareness of using your berzerker it's fairly simple, pop it when it's a group vs group situation, u have less chance to be targeted and there's less chance that it's gone wasted (like when there's only 1 stuntie and u pop it and it dies fast u still have like 15 seconds of onused berserker left)

A better mechanic could be that u build up rage and the more rage u get the more dps u do and when u reach a certain amount of rage Berserker becomes castable. (if this wasn't already the mechanic ofc)

Ofcourse this all is just my opinion.

PS: Correct me if I'm wrong on the mechanic of the choppa cause I didn't know for sure and I hope I am correctable (yes I really dislike the rage mechanic)

There only mechanic we know of right now is the single button push to go Berserk. There is no point build up or anything like that.

[Button Basher]

There only mechanic we know of right now is the single button push to go Berserk. There is no point build up or anything like that.

Ohw, that's kinda dissapointing.

Gobby Shammy here I come!

[Sloane]

Personally I'd like to see 'levels' of berserking. Like, say, you decide to throw yourself into a 'first level' berserk, which will lower defenses a tad and open up some new abilities.

Then from there, you can choose to upgrade to a deeper berserking that puts you into a crazed frenzy which opens up additional abilities, but would lower your defenses further.

I don't know, maybe have two or three levels (maybe have to spend certain primer abilities to open up new levels)

[linuxnacrot]

Ohw, that's kinda dissapointing.

Gobby Shammy here I come!

Really? I like not having an extra bar to look at

[Zanbaur]

There only mechanic we know of right now is the single button push to go Berserk. There is no point build up or anything like that.
That's the best way I can see it working. Choppas are known to go crazy at just a push of a button anyways, right?

[Foofmonger]

That's the best way I can see it working. Choppas are known to go crazy at just a push of a button anyways, right?

You honestly can't think of anything better?

cause I know I can.

You could make it a multiple (3) level bar with different levels of berserk, and as you deal/take damage the bar fills up. Lower levels fill up pretty fast, but last less in duration, although you retain access to most abilities (a few in the higher levels). Thus, you could choose to try and maintain a lower level of berserk as much as possible, or save it up for one really crazy level 3 berserk or some crap.

Honestly, there would be a ton of ways to do a mechanic like this.

[Button Basher]

You honestly can't think of anything better?

cause I know I can.

You could make it a multiple (3) level bar with different levels of berserk, and as you deal/take damage the bar fills up. Lower levels fill up pretty fast, but last less in duration, although you retain access to most abilities (a few in the higher levels). Thus, you could choose to try and maintain a lower level of berserk as much as possible, or save it up for one really crazy level 3 berserk or some crap.

Honestly, there would be a ton of ways to do a mechanic like this.

Now that's a mechanic that would work and stay fun. There's still like 3 months left until the game releases so let's hope they adjust it

[Murder]

You honestly can't think of anything better?

cause I know I can.

You could make it a multiple (3) level bar with different levels of berserk, and as you deal/take damage the bar fills up. Lower levels fill up pretty fast, but last less in duration, although you retain access to most abilities (a few in the higher levels). Thus, you could choose to try and maintain a lower level of berserk as much as possible, or save it up for one really crazy level 3 berserk or some crap.

Honestly, there would be a ton of ways to do a mechanic like this.
sounds a bit like morale to me.

[Foofmonger]

sounds a bit like morale to me.

Hey I didn't say it was the best idea ever, I came up with it in about 15 seconds.

I'm just saying there are plenty of possiblities.

[Lann]

New to the topic here, so having read it i thought id add my 2 cents (be they of value or not ;p)

I was originally planning to be a choppa when the classes were announced and i probably still will try one out. I have decided to go marauder as my main now, the main reason being i like the utility available from the mutations on a marauder. Whilst both are 'in your face' melee dps classes the choppa does come across as a bit more basic in its design.

The berserk ability in question sounds slightly similar to that of a Berserker in DAoC, which i played for quite some time. The Berserker was a dual wielding melee dps class, no magic, just wep skills. It did have a class ability that was 'Berserk' where it would change into a bearlike creature for 30 secs. This ability turned all blows made during this time to critical hits, so significant boost to dps, the penalty was you couldnt dodge or parrry during this time,so making you more vulnerable to attack. This ability was on a 6min cooldown! No special skills in zerk mode, just normal skills doing more dmg.

Playing a zerker really became about maximising your potential without relying on the zerk. They could hit like trucks and had reasonally good survivablility. The zerk mode became more of a tatical ability to use, an attempt to turn the tide of the fight if you will, but with its limited availibility you soon learned not rely to on it.

I think the same will be of the choppa, yes i think it will probably be the most basic to play of melee dps classes, find target, hit hit hit till its dead, but this i think is because i think that the zerk abilities will make the choppa a serious killing machine, compared to a competent killing machine in normal mode. I in no way think that being out of zerk mode = choppa with lame dps and likely to die. The key for me will be fighting without these abilities for the most part and playing well. I will be looking to use them when they can make the difference in a fight.

Im looking forward to release as im rolling my marauder and my cousin is gonna be a choppa so when we are duoing, that is gonna be some nasty dps!

[TickTock]

Lets say you are much stronger zerked, this means that when you don't have zerk up, you are going to feel gimped. You are going to be frustrated every time you die because "zerk" wasn't up. This turns Choppas into one trick ponies basically, making it so that they need to be zerking to be effective.

This is my main concern. A class based around a cooldown in order to be effective is not the greatest idea.

And aren't choppas supposed to get MORE blood crazed the longer they are in battle? Wouldn't this mechanic go against that a bit? Weak attack, weak attack, CRAZY MOUTH FROTHING!, weak attack, weak attack.

A mechanic like the shamans WAAAGH! would be more fitting imo.

[Lann]

This is my main concern. A class based around a cooldown in order to be effective is not the greatest idea.

And aren't choppas supposed to get MORE blood crazed the longer they are in battle? Wouldn't this mechanic go against that a bit? Weak attack, weak attack, CRAZY MOUTH FROTHING!, weak attack, weak attack.

A mechanic like the shamans WAAAGH! would be more fitting imo.


I dont think its a case of weak attack weak attack, crazy uber attack, weak weak etc.

Its more like. Average Comparable MDPS class attack, ACMDPS attack, significantly stronger than ACMDPS attack, average, average.

It may sound like you are uber for 30 seconds or whatever the timing is, the down side is you lack the utility of other mdps classes. Builders, like Hammerer WH, damage types Marauder, not sure about the WE mechanic at this stage.

But its clear that this 30 seconds of crazy damage has to be countered by something, defensive penalties and less utility than other MDPS classes.

But tbh who cares about utility when you can get 2 choppas assisting in zerk mode and insta dropping enemies (which I reckon will happen), especially the squishier ones.

[Foofmonger]

But tbh who cares about utility when you can get 2 choppas assisting in zerk mode and insta dropping enemies (which I reckon will happen), especially the squishier ones.

This argument is pretty weak actually imo.

Most melee DPS classes will be the same (get 2 of them assisting and its GG), furthermore, even with a better developed and more interactive mechanic, the same thing would be happening. This scenario is not exclusive to the Berserk mechanic being implemented as it currently is.

One of the things I don't like about the current implementation is that there is no motivation for a Choppa to go Berserk (in a character minds standpoint). He isn't getting pissed off cause he is getting hurt, or getting worked into a frothy rage by tearing people apart, he just randomly decides to go Berserk for a little while and then it fades, with no bearing on what the Choppa is actively engaged in.

For example: A Choppa is walking around a city, and for no reason, he just goes Berserk, doesn't hurt or get hurt by anyone, and it fades a little while later...

To me, that sounds pretty random from a lore/immersion standpoint.

Instead of a mechanic where a Choppa is in the middle of a battle, starts ripping stunties apart, gets worked up into a frothy rage and completely loses control, then starts to completely obliterate everything in his path.

To me, that sounds a lot cooler.

[Lann]

This argument is pretty weak actually imo.

That last point wasnt an argument, it was a personal preference. Ultimately im not gonna care about my utility when i can happily go around hacking and slashing with my mates as its all about enjoyment and not worrying about whether im skilled or playing a class that is percieved to need 'skill' to play it.

Is the mechanic lazy? Perhaps. Its different from other mdps careers for sure, perhaps its all about the possible RP applications. Think about it, a beserking character needs to summon a frenzy (instant cast action), this could happen pretty much instantaneously, a reaction to a situation if you will. Now a frenzy can only last over a certain period of time before the individual becomes fatigued ("spell duration"). After the frenzy has worn of the zerker would need to recouperate to a degree before being able to inflict that level of ferocity again ("spell cooldown"timer). Whilst in the frenzy the zerk is able to perform previously unattainable feats of combat (special zerk mode only skills). Just my thoughts on how this ability translates practically speaking.

Its not fancy, but then there is a danger of over complicating something just for the sake of it (trying to be innovative).

I dont think the whole builder process fits with the beserking style, as this implies gradual building of hatred etc etc, that not what a berserk is, its suddenly seeing red and going all guns blazing for that which has angered you.

From a gameplay point of view the berserk ability would have to be short duration otherwise it would be horribly overpowered if availiable constantly (big damage increase, extra skills).


I think that there will always be classes with a relatively limited amount of mechanics, purely because some people like to keep it simple and will not want the pressure of a class with mutliple responsibilities.

Just what i think.

[Lann]

For example: A Choppa is walking around a city, and for no reason, he just goes Berserk, doesn't hurt or get hurt by anyone, and it fades a little while later...

To me, that sounds pretty random from a lore/immersion standpoint.

Instead of a mechanic where a Choppa is in the middle of a battle, starts ripping stunties apart, gets worked up into a frothy rage and completely loses control, then starts to completely obliterate everything in his path.

To me, that sounds a lot cooler.

I guess its how much you are into your role play. Personaly i dont play these games for the RP, i prefer the competion of combat aspect. Ive got no time to type in fancy language if im bashing out combos and spells, or to talk in a silly voice on comms if im busy yelling at my team mates "to get some damage on the enemy healer over there who is healing team his mates uninterrupted".

Oh and using DAoC as an example i would regularly zerk out in peaceful environments for no reason other than to try startle people if they were not particularly paying attention to what they were doing!

[Afrosatan]

I don't hate the ability, it's basic, and basic is good, it's unique as far as mechanics go in this game though. Honestly, every mechanic is like "build up <insert a mechanic name> and you get more powerful abilities!"

This one, you actually get to choose when you want your powerful abilities. You could blow it early on and it would probably get some fast damage going, which would be good for 1v1, but a.) You actually get less powerful as the fight continues, because you're tired or whatever, so it has a slightly more realistic tune than other mechanics, b.) if you blow it early on you don't have as much of a way out if the battle turns on you(someone adds on the fight?) .

I'll hand it to you guys who dislike it, it isn't a super complex mechanic, but you're looking at a class named "Choppa" what did you really expect? Plus, if you took a step back and looked at the other mechanics, you would realize they aren't really complex either.

Another thing I felt like adding to the arguement was just how much more useful berserking will be than the mechanics that require sustaining. First; If you played any mmog pvp you probably understand why damage up front is so much more valueable than long term dps. Second; The ability will actually be available much more than just 1/3 of the time, unless you're only doing long boss fights. In pvp, fights usually happen a minute or a few minutes apart, so usually at the beginning of any fight your berserk will be up. It also is a lot better in keep battles, run in the door, berserk, bash some heads, and run out the door to wait for your cooldown/heal up. If you have to sustain some level of action, you have to spend more time in the sights of your enemies and that will make you more prone to dieing, and backing off and healing won't be an option because it will burn off all your momentum.

If I had to throw my 2 pennies in, I'd probably make berserking a little less powerful, and doing damage or taking damage takes time off the cooldown or something.

And those of you throwing together some crazy arse complicated mechanic together aren't the ones trying to implement your crazy ideas into a game.

[linuxnacrot]

One of the things I don't like about the current implementation is that there is no motivation for a Choppa to go Berserk (in a character minds standpoint). He isn't getting pissed off cause he is getting hurt, or getting worked into a frothy rage by tearing people apart, he just randomly decides to go Berserk for a little while and then it fades, with no bearing on what the Choppa is actively engaged in.

For example: A Choppa is walking around a city, and for no reason, he just goes Berserk, doesn't hurt or get hurt by anyone, and it fades a little while later...

To me, that sounds pretty random from a lore/immersion standpoint.

Instead of a mechanic where a Choppa is in the middle of a battle, starts ripping stunties apart, gets worked up into a frothy rage and completely loses control, then starts to completely obliterate everything in his path.

I'm pretty sure that a choppa can't just pop into combat whenever, i believe its been said that a choppa must be in combat(or dealing considerable damage) for a certain amount of time before he can go Berzerk.

Also, it's been stated that a choppa gets progresively stronger as the battle goes on, so maybe Mythic has put a mechanic into place that reduces the berzerk "cooldown" the more time spent in combat.

ex.

0 secs - combat enters combat
20 secs - Berzerk Available
65 secs - Berzerk Available(15 secs since end of last Berzerk)
105 secs - Berzerk Available(10 secs since end of last Berzerk)
142 secs - Berzerk Available(7 secs since end of last Berzerk)
179 secs - Berzerk Available(7 secs since end of last Berzerk) and so on

Of course these times are hypothetical and could be adjusted to the strength and average lifespan of Choppas

[Gemini]

I'm pretty sure that a choppa can't just pop into combat whenever, i believe its been said that a choppa must be in combat(or dealing considerable damage) for a certain amount of time before he can go Berzerk.

Also, it's been stated that a choppa gets progresively stronger as the battle goes on, so maybe Mythic has put a mechanic into place that reduces the berzerk "cooldown" the more time spent in combat.


I think you didn't read the thread. At the conventions where the Choppa has been playable, beserk was simply a one-buttom mechanic that opened up other skills and made them a bit stronger.

[Foofmonger]

I think you didn't read the thread. At the conventions where the Choppa has been playable, beserk was simply a one-buttom mechanic that opened up other skills and made them a bit stronger.

Hehe, I actually want it to be like he is describing it. That was the entire point of most of this thread.

:mrgreen:

[LookinGreen]

A system I wouldn't mind but lots would proabbl hate is that if beserk was tied to moral.

Every 10% moral is a berskerking level, at each level adds +damage

So its not a castable but you are alwasy beserk after 10% moral. This way you would have to choose at 40% moral would you want ot use that 25% moral ability and drop your dps to beserk level 1 or continue to gain dps and beserk levels with more moral.

[Origomar]

Foof your making it sound like choppa will be "Zomg beserk right click WIN" they have more than JUST the beserk button...they use beserk lets say it increases dmg by 10% for 20 seconds enabling more abilities than the origonal 12 they have. its not like how i described above "ZOMG ZERRGGG EEEET " *Right clicks and chases after*

[Foofmonger]

Foof your making it sound like choppa will be "Zomg beserk right click WIN" they have more than JUST the beserk button...they use beserk lets say it increases dmg by 10% for 20 seconds enabling more abilities than the origonal 12 they have. its not like how i described above "ZOMG ZERRGGG EEEET " *Right clicks and chases after*

Just because you don't understand what I am trying to say does not mean that I am saying something that I am not.

:rolleyes:

[Nerve]

What you mean by "Rage" is what Warhammer calls "Action Points."

The "Berserk" people are talking about is the ability where an Orc Choppa goes crazy and gains Action Points quicker. It's recommended you keep it up on you at all times since it really increases your damage output in both PvE and RvR.

:cool:

[Foofmonger]

What you mean by "Rage" is what Warhammer calls "Action Points."

The "Berserk" people are talking about is the ability where an Orc Choppa goes crazy and gains Action Points quicker. It's recommended you keep it up on you at all times since it really increases your damage output in both PvE and RvR.

:cool:

Err. not exactly.

"Berserk" is a single button push that unlocks new abilities, and may have some sort of passive effects (like a damage increase). It has a 1 minute cooldown, and lasts for 30 seconds. We know of no "keeping it up" mechanics so far, besides I believe 1 tactic that very slightly increases duration.

And thats it, it is that simple.

[Button Basher]

Like some people I was kinda dissapointed aswel.

U say the mechanic is as easy as other MDPS classes are but take for example the Marauder, every mutation with his arm gives him a different type of attacking, for instance the bone saw = avarage dps with bleeding debuffs, club = knockdowns and stuns and the claw = straight hardcore dps.

Now that gives the marauders some utility and they have to keep adjusting for different situations as for the Choppa u basically pop the zerk whenever you and your group are attacking something and the enemy isn't targeting you (because you get less survivability when you pop zerk like less armor or toughness or something).

That doesn't seem very complex and fun to me, it doesn't motivate me to get better with the choppa mechanics only its basic normal attacks but that feels like attacking as a marauder with no arm mutation.

[Jostle]

How is it amazing? Please explain this to me. You have a single stance button that can be used 1/3 of the time. Wow, that is so innovative and takes so much skill to use properly.

The only people who think that mechanic is amazing are people who can't handle doing anything more then hitting 1 button every 60 seconds.

If the Berserk mechanic is implemented in this way, more likely then not, Choppas will be known as the "n00b" class (at least for melee DPS). They don't need to manage different stances, any kind of point build up or management, or any kind of really fun unique mechanic.

I really hope Mythic changes their minds on this one.

I'm not saying that I disagree with you or anything, but what the hell do you care if Choppas are seen as a noob class? Looks like you didn't have any trouble with Hunters being seen as easy mode in WoW or Vamps in DAoC, so maybe you'll fit right in?

Even IF Berserk ends up being the way it's described above, it's not like it's going to be the ONLY thing Choppas have going for them. They have plenty of other abilities to keep them exciting and I have full faith in Mythic to create a fun game. If you think it's stupid and simple, then play something you think is harder.

[Button Basher]

I'm not saying that I disagree with you or anything, but what the hell do you care if Choppas are seen as a noob class? Looks like you didn't have any trouble with Hunters being seen as easy mode in WoW or Vamps in DAoC, so maybe you'll fit right in?

Even IF Berserk ends up being the way it's described above, it's not like it's going to be the ONLY thing Choppas have going for them. They have plenty of other abilities to keep them exciting and I have full faith in Mythic to create a fun game. If you think it's stupid and simple, then play something you think is harder.

If you want to play an orc and be dps then he shouldn't play something else aye?

But what frustrates people is that the other classes have pretty cool mechanics and stuff like the marauder with his mutating arm and the witch elf with posions and elixers. Compared to those a 1 hit button for every 60 seconds isn't really that cool now is it? It just makes people feel like there hasn't been paid much attention to choppas compared to other MDPS classes. And if it should be lore correct it should've been a berzerk build up, you get caught up in the fight releasing your madness instead of attacking someone, click, and then wait 30 seconds before u can click it again.

[Foofmonger]

I'm not saying that I disagree with you or anything, but what the hell do you care if Choppas are seen as a noob class?


I don't really, this was only a minor point I was making.


Looks like you didn't have any trouble with Hunters being seen as easy mode in WoW or Vamps in DAoC, so maybe you'll fit right in?
Anyone who said Hunters were easy mode in WoW had no idea what they are talking about. I played almost every class in that game to max level, and the Hunter was the hardest, bar none, to play to its maximum potential. I don't have trouble with idiots trying to tell me nonsense.

I also rolled a Vamp way after they got nerfed, and were not considered a cheesy OPed class.

Also to boot, I'm not even planning on playing a Choppa!

And... Those aren't even my only chars from those games. I had a max level Rogue/Pally/War/Shaman in WoW (along with my hunter), and in DAoC I had a Friar, Tic, VW, Champ, Reaver, and Pally. I just listed the Hunter/Vamp because they were my favorite characters.


Even IF Berserk ends up being the way it's described above, it's not like it's going to be the ONLY thing Choppas have going for them.
Oh really? You mean like, they get abilities they can use? Omgosh! :rolleyes: /sarcasm off


They have plenty of other abilities to keep them exciting and I have full faith in Mythic to create a fun game. If you think it's stupid and simple, then play something you think is harder.I was never intending to play a Choppa in the first place. I'm sorry that I can't voice my opinion on a subject without having some weird personal attachment to the issue, which I do not. I'm not going to play a Choppa, ever, I'm trying to look out for all the people who do plan on playing them. Mythic is not perfect, and while I have faith in them, that doesn't mean that I can't add constructive criticism where I see fit.

Put it this way: Constantly on this thread, Choppa players have been attacking my position on the issue, seeing it as an insult to them and their class (which I have clarified many many times). Every person who acts this way obviously has no idea what I'm saying, and is blinded by their own personal attachment to this class. When I say I think the mechanic is too simple, they go and say that I'm calling them n00bs and that anyone who plays a Choppa will be a n00b. I honestly wish this were real life, because you would see my eyes rolling so hard they'd almost be popping out of my face.

[Altair]

To be honest, I'd rather have a temporarily damage increase then needing to choose a 'specific mutation' for a 'specific enemey' to be effective. But that's just me :roll:

[Jostle]

If you want to play an orc and be dps then he shouldn't play something else aye?

But what frustrates people is that the other classes have pretty cool mechanics and stuff like the marauder with his mutating arm and the witch elf with posions and elixers. Compared to those a 1 hit button for every 60 seconds isn't really that cool now is it? It just makes people feel like there hasn't been paid much attention to choppas compared to other MDPS classes. And if it should be lore correct it should've been a berzerk build up, you get caught up in the fight releasing your madness instead of attacking someone, click, and then wait 30 seconds before u can click it again.


Like I said, I'm NOT saying that it's a great mechanic or disagreeing with this guy about its simplicity, I'm just saying we're not really sure if it IS just a one click every 60 seconds ability that makes this class. Poisons and elixers DON'T sound much more interesting to me than a berserk button. Choosing one mutation out of three DOESN'T seem like the end-all-be-all melee DPS. But most of all I don't think that the only thing that this class is going to be able to do is hit a button every 60 seconds. Call me crazy.


And Foof, I sincerely hope your eyes are ok, and this little thread banter won't affect your overall health and well being. I'm not sure if you stayed up too late and are particularly cranky or something but I wasn't attacking you and I said I didn't even disagree. I guess I should be more careful posting criticisms to peoples' criticism, because it seems there are more and more people taking things too personally every day.

[Lann]

Ive already posted in this thread, but to summarise:-

Some people like straight forward classes. Why try and complicate a class mechanic just to be innovative, especially when you are trying to do this with multiple other classes. People will always want options.

I have played nearly all melee classes in DAoC extensively (and a few in WoW, but they dont really count, for pvp anyway). I enjoyed the total meleee focus of some classes and the melee classes with cooldown magic abilities on long timers and then the hybrids of melee/magic dps.

Because i want to roll a class that is very defined by its role within a group (ie offensive melee dps) does not make me a noob, if anything it makes more focused on what i should be doing.

Trying to keep things simple does not mean you are being lazy!

[Foofmonger]

Like I said, I'm NOT saying that it's a great mechanic or disagreeing with this guy about its simplicity, I'm just saying we're not really sure if it IS just a one click every 60 seconds ability that makes this class.


Would you please read the thread?


Poisons and elixers DON'T sound much more interesting to me than a berserk button.
Thats not the WEs mechanic actually, they build up and expend frenzy points.


Choosing one mutation out of three DOESN'T seem like the end-all-be-all melee DPS.
Never said it did... whats up with the strawman?


But most of all I don't think that the only thing that this class is going to be able to do is hit a button every 60 seconds. Call me crazy.
Nobody is saying that Choppas won't have abilities, this is another strawman constantly being used as justification in this thread.



And Foof, I sincerely hope your eyes are ok, and this little thread banter won't affect your overall health and well being.
uh... what?


I'm not sure if you stayed up too late and are particularly cranky or something but I wasn't attacking you and I said I didn't even disagree.
I didn't think you were attacking me, and you specifically stated you didn't disagree, I'm well aware of this.


I guess I should be more careful posting criticisms to peoples' criticism, because it seems there are more and more people taking things too personally every day.I wasn't taking it personally, I was just trying to clarify the discussion for the umpteenth time. It was clear to me from your post that I was being misunderstood, and I wasn't actually even directing many the comments at you in particular.

[Foofmonger]

Ive already posted in this thread, but to summarise:-

Some people like straight forward classes. Why try and complicate a class mechanic just to be innovative, especially when you are trying to do this with multiple other classes. People will always want options.


Your last sentence here pretty much invalidates the entire argument. You say people want options, but if you only apply it to a single level (a classes playstyle in comparison to others), and not on all levels (like saying, options for doing more then hitting a single button as their mechanic, please note, I am saying mechanic, and not that Choppas only have 1 button to use ever.)

Its not about complicating a class mechanic to be innovative. If you read the thread, it was actually simplified from a previous version. From what we understood, Berserk works differently then we were initially lead to believe.


I have played nearly all melee classes in DAoC extensively (and a few in WoW, but they dont really count, for pvp anyway). I enjoyed the total meleee focus of some classes and the melee classes with cooldown magic abilities on long timers and then the hybrids of melee/magic dps.


As did I.


Because i want to roll a class that is very defined by its role within a group (ie offensive melee dps) does not make me a noob, if anything it makes more focused on what i should be doing.


Who in this thread is actually trying to imply any of these things? Who is saying that play offensive melee dps makes you a n00b? What are you talking about?

[Ballock]

After being warrior and tank for a long periond in both DAoC and WoW I too are very intrested in Choppa (melee dps for a change).

Some classes are so complicated that you forget to have fun. You just (in PvP) stand and wait for your opponents different special move so you can counter with yours. I like the idea that Choppa seem to be less complicated. But that sure doesn't mean it will be a walk in the park to play them good.

I'll probably try both Choppa + a tanking class and see what I like the best. Playing solo as a tank is slow, whatever mythic says they will do to counter that. I beleave it when I see it ;)

[Origomar]

Just because you don't understand what I am trying to say does not mean that I am saying something that I am not.



I understood completely what you were saying you just wont want to admit that thats what you said that it will be a simple mechanic that when they use it they basicaly win.

[Foofmonger]

I understood completely what you were saying you just wont want to admit that thats what you said that it will be a simple mechanic that when they use it they basicaly win.

If you look at what I wrote, I highlighted a number of possible scenarios, one of them being similar to what you described.

When I said you didn't understand, I meant it. Me highlighting plausible possibilities is not that same thing as declaring them as fact.

[Jostle]

Never said it did... whats up with the strawman?


No, you didn't, and I wasn't talking to you.


Would you please read the thread?


I just thought it was funny you said this since you pretty much misunderstood my entire post. I read the thread (in its entirity), did you?



Who in this thread is actually trying to imply any of these things? Who is saying that play offensive melee dps makes you a n00b? What are you talking about?


You?



If the Berserk mechanic is implemented in this way, more likely then not, Choppas will be known as the "n00b" class (at least for melee DPS). They don't need to manage different stances, any kind of point build up or management, or any kind of really fun unique mechanic.

I really hope Mythic changes their minds on this one.

[Lann]

Who in this thread is actually trying to imply any of these things? Who is saying that play offensive melee dps makes you a n00b? What are you talking about?

as has been already highlighted, you did (regarding choppas anyway and the possibility of a simple mechanic such as what has been discussed).

:D

I would be careful with this argument as it implies that all melee dps classes (whose main purpose is to keep hitting targets until they are dead) with little or no magic capability are all 'noob classes'. If you truly believe this then a) you have never played one at a highly competitive group level where the pressure is on you to do your job as much as any other class in the group (good target selection, assisting or spreading damage where needed, peeling enemy players of your grp mates) b) there will be a lot of long time mercs bms zerks etc (from daoc) that would disagree with your interpretation of this kind of class.

But this is digressing a little from the main point of the topic!

[Foofmonger]

as has been already highlighted, you did (regarding choppas anyway and the possibility of a simple mechanic such as what has been discussed).


No, I did not. Please go quote me saying that all melee DPS = n00b classes.


I would be careful with this argument as it implies that all melee dps classes (whose main purpose is to keep hitting targets until they are dead) with little or no magic capability are all 'noob classes'.


I never made this argument. This is a strawman, and its ridiculous at best. Thanks for not understanding anything I posted in this thread.


If you truly believe this then a) you have never played one at a highly competitive group level where the pressure is on you to do your job as much as any other class in the group (good target selection, assisting or spreading damage where needed, peeling enemy players of your grp mates) b) there will be a lot of long time mercs bms zerks etc (from daoc) that would disagree with your interpretation of this kind of class.


Once again, complete fail. Setting me up for strawmans sure must be fun hunh?

[Foofmonger]

I just thought it was funny you said this since you pretty much misunderstood my entire post. I read the thread (in its entirity), did you?


I've read every single post by every person in this thread it its entirety at least 3 times. Have you?




You?

No, I didn't. Please re-read the quote you selected. No where does it imply that melee dps = n00b class. However, thanks for making broad generalizations based on incomplete assumptions about things you didn't take to time to properly read thoroughly.

In fact, here is my quote again!


"If the Berserk mechanic is implemented in this way, more likely then not, Choppas will be known as the "n00b" class (at least for melee DPS). They don't need to manage different stances, any kind of point build up or management, or any kind of really fun unique mechanic.

I really hope Mythic changes their minds on this one."
Now, here is where reading comprehension comes in handy. Me saying that the current implementation of the Berserk mechanic as the least interactive, and most simple melee system in the game does not mean that I am saying that melee DPS are n00b classes. This is a strawman argument perpetuated throughout this thread by people who like to assume they know what other people are saying when they clearly don't understand.

Saying that Choppas will be a n00b class in comparison to every other melee class in the game (including tanks and melee support), is not the same thing as calling all melee DPS n00b classes. Please stop trying to insinuate that I am making this ridiculous argument. The only people in this entire thread who have made any assertion that melee dps classes = n00b classes, is you guys.

[Dr.Nelson]

Isn't foof plannin on playing a melee DPS, atlest I think he has a maurader avatar. Anyway this thread feels like my opinion>than yours; you either like the mechanic or not.

I wish they could have done a bit more with the beserk mechanic but that doesn't mean the Choppa class looks bad, just not as good as it could be. From what I read the hammerer sounds more interesting to me with building momentum, I wish they did that with Choppa.

[Foofmonger]

Isn't foof plannin on playing a melee DPS, atlest I think he has a maurader avatar. Anyway this thread feels like my opinion>than yours; you either like the mechanic or not.


Yea, I'm planning on playing a Marauder. I should probably re-update the class choice thingy, since they reset it at some point in time and I never changed it back.


I wish they could have done a bit more with the beserk mechanic but that doesn't mean the Choppa class looks bad, just not as good as it could be.
I agree 100%. I've never tried to assert that the Choppa class will be bad. I'm just not a fan of the mechanic currently in place.


From what I read the hammerer sounds more interesting to me with building momentum, I wish they did that with Choppa.At first, thats how we understood the Choppa to work. However, as time went on, we got new information that Berserk works in the way described in this thread. Also, from what we know, nobody has ever seen momentum in action in a long time (it wasn't there in all the show builds, etc..) so I'm really unsure of what direction Mythic is taking the Choppa/Hammerer.

I do prefer the idea of the momentum/early Berserk though.

[Gemini]

One thing we must consider is that they may have just simplified the mechanic for convention builds. Case in point, originally the Zealot's dark rituals had a positive effect for nearby allies if the enemy target was effected by the harbinger and in the ritual circle. However, in later convention builds the positive effect was removed and dark rituals were simply a ground targeted debuff that only effected people in the circle. But the Zealot's mastery information in the feburary newsletter strongly hints that rituals do indeed have a positive effect.

They are just as proficient at enhancing their allies as they are at stunting their enemies - and, in fact, can do both at the same time.

To me that suggests rituals have the positive effects back in. It could be that they just decided they didn't want the mechanic but then changed their minds, but I find it more likely they simplified the mechanic for convention builds. And if they did that for the Zealot, who's to say they didn't for the Choppa (and Hammerer)?

[Lann]

No, I did not. Please go quote me saying that all melee DPS = n00b classes.



Now i think its you that cant read. If you read my quote its actually says regarding choppas anyway.

Im strictly referring to the point that a simple mechanic does not necessarily make it a noob class. Which is what you are implying will be the case that the choppa may become if what mechanic has been discussed is implemented. There are simliar mechanics in other games, but does not automatically mean that the person "playing them is only capable pushing 1 button every 60 seconds" (sound familiar?).

I have played classes like a vamp and a paladin in daoc which meant constantly having to run multiple abilities (short duration buffs, chants). If anything i just found these tedious and very repetitive and quickly got bored of them post 50. It seemed that every man and his dog rolled one anyway, probably due to the fact that particular classes i mentioned became very over powered one on one because of this particular "twisting/buffing" mechanic, so if anything they became the noob classes (but thats a generalisation). I dont know why, maybe the necessity to have to mash multiple buttons in a row over and over, somehow implies a level of skill ... I dont see it that way

Good team play through an awareness of what your team is doing and your opponents are doing and sticking to what your job is regardless of how many buttons you need to press is actually more important to me.

If the choppa does end up dps with this "cooldown" zerk mechanic, it really doesnt faze me i will still roll one (after marauder ofc) and i think it will work.

[Jostle]

Thank you, Lann for validating my assertion that Foof was being asinine and can't really read all that well. I was starting to think that maybe I was just being a nit-picky jerk. He said that hitting one button as a class defining ability would make it known as a n00b class, we pointed it out and he said we generalized saying that all melee DPS classes are n00bs according to him.

The way he puts his arguments makes me think I misread something, and have to go back, but it's still there every time.

Do you know any words other than straw man foof?

[Button Basher]

Thank you, Lann for validating my assertion that Foof was being asinine and can't really read all that well. I was starting to think that maybe I was just being a nit-picky jerk. He said that hitting one button as a class defining ability would make it known as a n00b class, we pointed it out and he said we generalized saying that all melee DPS classes are n00bs according to him.

The way he puts his arguments makes me think I misread something, and have to go back, but it's still there every time.

Do you know any words other than straw man foof?

Well I kinda understand what Foof means. Take an example of WoW, the hunter got a reputation as being EZmode, autoshot, drink coffee etc etc. But that doesn't mean that the hunter can do awesome dps and is wanted in a lotta situations.

I think Foof is just talking about the reputation not the utility of the choppa. If not then he confuses me.

[Jostle]

Well I kinda understand what Foof means. Take an example of WoW, the hunter got a reputation as being EZmode, autoshot, drink coffee etc etc. But that doesn't mean that the hunter can do awesome dps and is wanted in a lotta situations.

I think Foof is just talking about the reputation not the utility of the choppa. If not then he confuses me.


I completely agree about hunters. My favorite class in WoW was a hunter, and yes, they had the reputation of being the n00b class, and sometimes people even called me a noob just for being a hunter. However, I had tons of fun, could sustain lots of DPS, could kite and CC and could BURST a lot while blowing tons of mana by using different techniques.

But, foof said he was worried they'd be known as a noob class and directly attacked the mechanic and its simplicity. I realise he isn't calling people that choose to play Choppas noobs, but my whole point was that he shouldn't be worried about them being considered noobs if ignorant people in wow would consider him a noob because of his class choice, and that Choppas will have plenty of things to keep players busy and interested.

[Foofmonger]

To me that suggests rituals have the positive effects back in. It could be that they just decided they didn't want the mechanic but then changed their minds, but I find it more likely they simplified the mechanic for convention builds. And if they did that for the Zealot, who's to say they didn't for the Choppa (and Hammerer)?

Good point, and this hopefully will be the case.





But, foof said he was worried they'd be known as a noob class and directly attacked the mechanic and its simplicity. I realise he isn't calling people that choose to play Choppas noobs, but my whole point was that he shouldn't be worried about them being considered noobs if ignorant people in wow would consider him a noob because of his class choice, and that Choppas will have plenty of things to keep players busy and interested.

Lets get this last point straight.

1. I'm not worried about Choppas being known as the n00b class. I'm telling you, that if this mechanic goes live, they will be known as the n00b class. They will be the easiest melee based class the play in the game.
2. Hunters were only considered to be a n00b class, because so many completely terrible people played them. They were a n00b class not because they had a n00by mechanic, but because so many n00bs were attracted to the class, and couldn't handle the complexity of the mechanics.
3. This is entirely different then the Choppa. Unlike the hunter, they won't be called the n00b class because there will be so many n00bs playing them, they will be called the n00b class because even a n00b could play them better then any other melee class.
4. I'm not saying Choppas won't have other abilities. However, they will still have less to do at any given time then any other melee class in the game. Everything else needs to manage something (stances/points/combos/ etc..), including all tanks and melee support, besides the Choppa. Every other class will also have tons of other abilities, just like the Choppa.
5. Using "the choppa will have other abilities" is a fallacious argument that doesn't take into account that this goes for every other class as well. Since this is based on comparing the Choppa to other classes, you can't use this argument as justification for your opinion.

[Foofmonger]

Now i think its you that cant read. If you read my quote its actually says regarding choppas anyway.


Are you seriously kidding me? Because this must be a joke. Please tell me that you forgot the context of the discussion, because my reply was in reference to your post, and the early post made by you where you claim that I said all melee dps = n00b classes. I'm sorry you can't remember the big picture of what we are talking about.

Here is your exact quote to boot!


Because i want to roll a class that is very defined by its role within a group (ie offensive melee dps) does not make me a noob, if anything it makes more focused on what i should be doing.


You imply that I am implying that rolling an offensive melee dps class makes you a n00b. This is what we are talking about. I'm sorry you forgot what you typed.


Im strictly referring to the point that a simple mechanic does not necessarily make it a noob class.
No, but it makes it percieved to be one, in comparison to everything else.


Which is what you are implying will be the case that the choppa may become if what mechanic has been discussed is implemented. There are simliar mechanics in other games, but does not automatically mean that the person "playing them is only capable pushing 1 button every 60 seconds" (sound familiar?).
That was "rhetoric", and the point I was making is that the only people who would like such a simple mechanic, in comparison to every other class, are people who aren't capable of doing anything else. I obviously wasn't pretending this was a fact, just rhetoric to describe a point. This is why I constantly say you are missing the point... because you ARE!

As per the rest of your post, is just useless opinions based on your personal experiences, that are in no reference to the actually discussion at hand (oh I don't like manging abilities because its tedious... blah blah blah).

[Starscream]

I've read through this whole damn thing and I don't see how the zerk mechanic is lame or stupid. I loved the zerker class in DAoC and this choppa class seems exactly like it, well except the choppa is better in terms of abilities but...

This is exactly what I want from the choppa class, good melee DPS with the ability to turn it on when I hop on a healer/caster. Any other way and I wouldn't be happy with it, its simple but its still very enjoyable, and more importantly, effective.

I would be really annoyed if I had to "build up" my zerker-ness, especially if I didn't have it at full zerker-ness when I needed it most. Simple is good because most times when trying to be innovative (especially in MMO's) it just ends up being either horrible or overpowered and then there are 100 patches and the class ends up being garbage.

So please, just stick with your 3 mutations and leave the choppa alone. I don't care if you think a 1 button zerker ability is noob or easy, truth is, nothing in an MMO is hard, every class is easy to play, so it doesn't really matter how many buttons it takes to zerk.

[Jostle]

Good point, and this hopefully will be the case.
2. Hunters were only considered to be a n00b class, because so many completely terrible people played them. They were a n00b class not because they had a n00by mechanic, but because so many n00bs were attracted to the class, and couldn't handle the complexity of the mechanics.
3. This is entirely different then the Choppa. Unlike the hunter, they won't be called the n00b class because there will be so many n00bs playing them, they will be called the n00b class because even a n00b could play them better then any other melee class.



I'm not so sure about this. A lot of people claimed they were nooby because of Beastial Wrath and just specializing in Beast Master at all. Though there were a lot of terrible hunters, hahaha.

[Mug elbbub]

4. I'm not saying Choppas won't have other abilities. However, they will still have less to do at any given time then any other melee class in the game. Everything else needs to manage something (stances/points/combos/ etc..), including all tanks and melee support, besides the Choppa. Every other class will also have tons of other abilities, just like the Choppa.

Well I believe that this point rely does make your whole assertion moot. Having played a wow rogue warrior (both prot and fury) and hunter. I found that rogue was a much easier class to play in pve due to the point management and energy management. Combos/ points / energy systems can often dictate to you your next course of action so much so that you can right down a rotation with a couple of then if steps o fill in the blanks. While a character with no points or tons of cool downs (such as a wow hunter) becomes alot more free form you need to decide what comes next what takes besy use of your time( even moreso than pvp). Playing a hunter (and to a lesser extent slam specced ms warrior) was a good deal harder than most other dps classes to the point that alot of players that would be otherwise considered alright or acceptable dps on say a rogue or a mage did rely rely awful and where considred a noob. Also I understand that rogues tend not to do as well as warriors in high end pvp but thats mostly due to the fact that a rogues survivability was based on stealth (witch was very very weak in wows arenas) and cooldowns (keep track of em and when they are gone its time to burn the rogue down).

[Button Basher]

I must say Starscream does make a small point.

I still think the mechanic is a bit dull but it's quite handy if I have to nuke down a healer that's hiding in the back but that's it tho.

I can't really say ofcourse, maybe if I play the game and try Choppa I might find them the most fun to play. As long as I'm not in the beta I can only judge from vids and descriptions but I shouldn't judge on that

[Foofmonger]

I've read through this whole damn thing and I don't see how the zerk mechanic is lame or stupid. I loved the zerker class in DAoC and this choppa class seems exactly like it, well except the choppa is better in terms of abilities but...


Lame and stupid were not the ideas I was really trying to explore, although it may have came off that way because I was easily frustrated at the beginning of this thread. I meant simple and boring to be honest, which once again, is just an opinion, that I don't expect everyone to share.

Just because you loved on a Zerker in DAoC, doesn't mean the Choppa should be exactly like it. I'd hope Mythic would have the foresight to not just make classes clones of DAoC ones (they obviously do, this is somewhat of a rhetorical point). Regardless, you are coming into this discussion with a huge bias. The bias that A, you want to play a Choppa, B, you want the Choppa to be just like your zerker. I have no such bias, and I have nothing invested in the Choppa class.

I'm simply comparing the current implementation of the Zerk mechanic to every other melee class in the game, and it just doesn't add up. The Zerk mechanic, is the only mechanic out of any melee class (include tanks and melee support), that is highly non-interactive.



This is exactly what I want from the choppa class, good melee DPS with the ability to turn it on when I hop on a healer/caster.
Wouldn't you want great melee DPS without having to rely on zerk? What happens if zerk is very strong, but when you aren't zerking.. you can't kill anything? What happens if zerk is only slighty stronger then normal... and is a completely boring mechanic because it doesn't do much?

How many times are you going to die and blame it on "oh zerk just ran out, or... I woulda won if I had zerk up"!

No other melee class will have that problem. They won't be blaming their deaths on their lack of mechanics.


Any other way and I wouldn't be happy with it, its simple but its still very enjoyable, and more importantly, effective.

This is pretty close minded. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways you would enjoy it. Regardless, you don't know how effective it is, unless you are in beta, and then you just broke NDA anyway. So making blanket statements like this really gets the discussion nowhere.


Mug: You gotta realize that when I was talking about "mechanics", I wasn't talking about mere combo points. Stances/rage from warriors is another example of a mechanic that needs to be actively managed. Hunters didn't have such a mechanic, but they had enough to do anyway (shot rotations, kiting, CC, + pet management).

So I don't really find your argument accurate. Warriors fall into the same boat as rogues, which you try to distinguish for some reason. Hunters are a seperate case, and a ranged DPS class to boot, which throws the discussion off. Furthermore, using only one example of one class from one game isn't indicative of a genre trend.

[Starscream]

Foof I'm more then sure that Choppazzzz will have great melee DPS regardless of their zerking ability. And while it would be nice to have the Choppa play like the DAoC zerker, I don't want a complete clone (and again I'm more then sure it isn't).

Most zerkers in DAoC didn't use their berserker ability as a crutch and performed well without using it, hopefully its the same case with the choppa.


Say the choppa is a very good MDPS'r and can hold his own without zerking. And say the Choppaaazzzzz zerking ability only added say...5-10% damage, but gave you a couple new abilities, maybe one is a stun, another is a snare or something, pretty much just abilities to hold squishies in place, or slow them down so they can't run away.

Now it all seems simple, but waiting to pop the zerking ability is important. If you just use it whenever it is up its not very effective, but popping it at the right time can make or break a fight. It may not be very innovative or flashy, but if your timing is right you will be a very good choppa.

So now you have a class that can hold his own without zerking, but when he times his zerking ability right, he is of great benefit to his group, with the ability to really lock down healers or casters, or maybe peel a tank off his own healer.

I'm not really sure what else you would want. Seems perfect to me, and if thats how it worked I'd be happy as hell.

[Mug elbbub]

Foof i think you missed my point. Using the "complex" mechanics of a rogue and the "simple" mechanics of a hunter to show that quite often things are not as they seem. A standard dps rotation for a hunter is more difficult to perform correctly than a standard rogue dps rotation, a rogues stunlock can be more or less dictated by combo points and energy. The most complex part of a rogue was pvp cooldown management, while a hunters most complex part was proper trapping and kiting, both of witch are independent of the core mechanic. I also understand that your just disappointed in the seeming lack of depth in the zerker mechanic, its just that to form an opinion without seeing the other skills and seeing how they are going to work in relation to zerker, seems a little preemptive.


I'm sorry warrior mechanics rly didn't fall into what i was trying to explain it was late and my mind tends to wander.

[waaagh-er]

How is it amazing? Please explain this to me. You have a single stance button that can be used 1/3 of the time. Wow, that is so innovative and takes so much skill to use properly.

The only people who think that mechanic is amazing are people who can't handle doing anything more then hitting 1 button every 60 seconds.

If the Berserk mechanic is implemented in this way, more likely then not, Choppas will be known as the "n00b" class (at least for melee DPS). They don't need to manage different stances, any kind of point build up or management, or any kind of really fun unique mechanic.

I really hope Mythic changes their minds on this one.

you basically described the Barbarian class from DnD. Even though its and easy class to play its still hella fun.

i dont feel like reading every single page, but heres my 2 cents.

edit: now that ive skimmed over alot of the posts id have to say give it a rest, foof is just disappointed in the choppa class as it currently is. There really shouldnt be any argument over that... :neutral:

[Foofmonger]

Foof i think you missed my point. Using the "complex" mechanics of a rogue and the "simple" mechanics of a hunter to show that quite often things are not as they seem. A standard dps rotation for a hunter is more difficult to perform correctly than a standard rogue dps rotation, a rogues stunlock can be more or less dictated by combo points and energy. The most complex part of a rogue was pvp cooldown management, while a hunters most complex part was proper trapping and kiting, both of witch are independent of the core mechanic. I also understand that your just disappointed in the seeming lack of depth in the zerker mechanic, its just that to form an opinion without seeing the other skills and seeing how they are going to work in relation to zerker, seems a little preemptive.


.

Ok ok, I totally understand now. I got what you are trying to say (the summary helped, hehe).

I agree, just because a class has a simple mechanic, or a complex one, doesn't directly make them either more complex, or simple, to actually play. Sometimes complex mechanics can actually streamline a playstyle (in the case of a rogue), where having no mechanic, but just a lot of roles to fill (a hunter), can be more complex to play.

So yes, I conceed that just because the zerk mechanic is simple, doesn't automatically mean that a Choppa will be a simple class to play. Then again, it doesn't automatically mean that it wont be simple either, heh.

Anyway, like I was trying to say, that wasn't really my main point anyway, just some pointless rhetoric I should have never used as an example for an argument.

My main concern is actually due to interactivity (which I have explored earlier in the thread), more then simplicity. I don't mind a simple mechanic on the basis that its simple. In my opinion, most mechanics are quite simple (such as rage/energy from WoW, etc..) anyway.

[Mug elbbub]

I see your concern and hope that Mythik would not be so unwise as to make a Choppas a one trick pony, what they should do is have zerking as a facet of the class, I'm hoping that is more like rogues evasion or CoS. Important and class defining yes but the Choppa would still be a good class without it, if the choppa likes the abilities granted he could spec toward it. On the other had if the choppa wants to be more consistent he could spec otherwise but would have a less powerful version still at his disposal.

[Vidrak]

Personally, I have to agree with Foof. The current mechanic (if it really is the current mechanic) of pressing the "Berserk" button and going beserk is silly, stupid, un-orcy and too simple.

Let's look at two scenarios. The first being the current mechanic. On a 60s cooldown, you rush into combat. And what do you do? Immediately mash your "Berserk" hotkey, "WAAAAAGH!", and you tear into your foe. Instead of mashing your 3 normal attacks, you mash your special "Berserk" attacks while it is active. After the 20-30s, your berserk wears off and you or your foe is probably dead. So really, the "Berserk" skill, in 95% of encounters will probably last close to the entire duration of the fight. And by the time you reach the next mob (20-30s later after regen/running to the next mob), your Berserk will probably be ready to be mashed again.

My question is, how does this resemble a berserking class what so ever? And furthermore, how does it resemble the description of the Choppa class on the Warhammer Online page, as well as "Orc behavior" as far as combat goes? It doesn't, in any shape or form.

Why would a Berserking class automatically be able to just turn on its "Berserking" power at any moment? Isn't the point of berserk that you become more and more berserk as you take damage, deal damage and get into the heat of battle? Wouldn't the Choppa class be more interesting if that was the case?

In the description of the class, they talk about taking the Choppa out as quick as you can, before he can build up too much power/berserk/whatever in combat. So you would think, playing as a Choppa would have something to do with "gettin' stuck in!", which is what Orcs do best.

I think the current mechanic is dumbing down the Choppa class incredibly (and yes, sorry, mashing 1 button on a 60s cooldown is the most noob-tastic class skill I have ever seen). If you were required to closely monitor your health and berserkerness (yea, I made that up) as you fought and tried to stay in combat as much as possible in order to be at your peak of power, that would add much more depth to the class as well as "fit the bill" MUCH, MUCH better.

I think the longer you are in combat, the more powerful you get. The more berserk powers unlock, the more resistant to damage you become, the more power your normal swings have behind them, etc. You are a berserking Orc, berserk should not be something you control by mashing an ability. It should be controlled by your performance in combat.

The second scenario would be like this. You charge your foe in combat (from a "fresh start", as in, you have not been in combat for a while). You start out with no berserking power. Personally, I see no point to a Berserking bar, but there could be one to represent how berserk you have become.

But as you deal damage, take damage, deal critical strikes, etc. your berserking bar/power will raise. As you become more berserk, new abilities on your bar will become available for use. These abilities will not "spend" or "use up" berserking power as that just seems rediculously stupid (why would you become less berserk by using an ability that requires you to be in a crazed blood frenzy to begin with?). These abilities would cost action points like everything else does, and possibly even, as you become more berserk, your normal actions as well as some berserking actions will decrease in action point cost.

How do you lose berserking power? You leave combat. Your berserking bar/power will decrease at an explonentially decaying rate (as in, if you are at HIGH berserk power, it will drop faster than if you are at a LOWER berserk power). Basically, this forces the character to be in combat constantly (this is the way of the Orc, especially a berserking Orc!). This would allow the character to build up his power tremendously in combat, but be much weaker if starting off from a fresh start.

This is how I think the class should work. A simple ability that you hit in order to go berserk seems very silly to me. Berserk should be something you earn by fighting, taking damage, dealing damage and participating in combat; not something you earn by waiting 60s for your Berserk action to cool down.

I really hope they take a different angle with this class, as it seems very dull and boring to me at the moment (but I do reallly want to play a berserking class again, a REAL berserking class ...). And worst of all, it goes against everything Orcy. Orcs love fighting, so why not reward them with doing so? It only makes sense to me.

All in all, I think the current mechanic sucks and is quite possibly the worst implementation of a berserking class I have seen in a long, long time.

[Button Basher]

Personally, I have to agree with Foof. The current mechanic (if it really is the current mechanic) of pressing the "Berserk" button and going beserk is silly, stupid, un-orcy and too simple.

Let's look at two scenarios. The first being the current mechanic. On a 60s cooldown, you rush into combat. And what do you do? Immediately mash your "Berserk" hotkey, "WAAAAAGH!", and you tear into your foe. Instead of mashing your 3 normal attacks, you mash your special "Berserk" attacks while it is active. After the 20-30s, your berserk wears off and you or your foe is probably dead. So really, the "Berserk" skill, in 95% of encounters will probably last close to the entire duration of the fight. And by the time you reach the next mob (20-30s later after regen/running to the next mob), your Berserk will probably be ready to be mashed again.

My question is, how does this resemble a berserking class what so ever? And furthermore, how does it resemble the description of the Choppa class on the Warhammer Online page, as well as "Orc behavior" as far as combat goes? It doesn't, in any shape or form.

Why would a Berserking class automatically be able to just turn on its "Berserking" power at any moment? Isn't the point of berserk that you become more and more berserk as you take damage, deal damage and get into the heat of battle? Wouldn't the Choppa class be more interesting if that was the case?

In the description of the class, they talk about taking the Choppa out as quick as you can, before he can build up too much power/berserk/whatever in combat. So you would think, playing as a Choppa would have something to do with "gettin' stuck in!", which is what Orcs do best.

I think the current mechanic is dumbing down the Choppa class incredibly (and yes, sorry, mashing 1 button on a 60s cooldown is the most noob-tastic class skill I have ever seen). If you were required to closely monitor your health and berserkerness (yea, I made that up) as you fought and tried to stay in combat as much as possible in order to be at your peak of power, that would add much more depth to the class as well as "fit the bill" MUCH, MUCH better.

I think the longer you are in combat, the more powerful you get. The more berserk powers unlock, the more resistant to damage you become, the more power your normal swings have behind them, etc. You are a berserking Orc, berserk should not be something you control by mashing an ability. It should be controlled by your performance in combat.

The second scenario would be like this. You charge your foe in combat (from a "fresh start", as in, you have not been in combat for a while). You start out with no berserking power. Personally, I see no point to a Berserking bar, but there could be one to represent how berserk you have become.

But as you deal damage, take damage, deal critical strikes, etc. your berserking bar/power will raise. As you become more berserk, new abilities on your bar will become available for use. These abilities will not "spend" or "use up" berserking power as that just seems rediculously stupid (why would you become less berserk by using an ability that requires you to be in a crazed blood frenzy to begin with?). These abilities would cost action points like everything else does, and possibly even, as you become more berserk, your normal actions as well as some berserking actions will decrease in action point cost.

How do you lose berserking power? You leave combat. Your berserking bar/power will decrease at an explonentially decaying rate (as in, if you are at HIGH berserk power, it will drop faster than if you are at a LOWER berserk power). Basically, this forces the character to be in combat constantly (this is the way of the Orc, especially a berserking Orc!). This would allow the character to build up his power tremendously in combat, but be much weaker if starting off from a fresh start.

This is how I think the class should work. A simple ability that you hit in order to go berserk seems very silly to me. Berserk should be something you earn by fighting, taking damage, dealing damage and participating in combat; not something you earn by waiting 60s for your Berserk action to cool down.

I really hope they take a different angle with this class, as it seems very dull and boring to me at the moment (but I do reallly want to play a berserking class again, a REAL berserking class ...). And worst of all, it goes against everything Orcy. Orcs love fighting, so why not reward them with doing so? It only makes sense to me.

All in all, I think the current mechanic sucks and is quite possibly the worst implementation of a berserking class I have seen in a long, long time.

U have a lotta free time don't u :o.

I do agree altho Mythic's scapegoat is that you need to be into battle for a little before u can hit berserk. I read that a few times somewhere, can't recall where.

[Vidrak]

U have a lotta free time don't u :o.

I do agree altho Mythic's scapegoat is that you need to be into battle for a little before u can hit berserk. I read that a few times somewhere, can't recall where.
I am a fast typer and I get bored at work :)

[Foofmonger]

I am a fast typer and I get bored at work :)

Finally, someone actually agrees with me!

It's a miracle! :D

[Vidrak]

Finally, someone actually agrees with me!

It's a miracle! :D
Haha, I don't see why anyone actually likes the mechanic that Mythic has/had for a while now.

I wanted to add some more ideas based on what I have above too. When I mentioned not having any sort of "Berserker bar" to show how much berserk resource you have, I want to talk more about why and how it will work.

Thinigs like momentum for a Hammerer makes sense to expend. If you have a hammer, and you hit something with it, simple physics, it will lose momentum/speed/acceleration/etc. So you would say build up the momentum with "spinning" and "jumping" attacks to increase momentum. Then release it all with one big smash, which brings your hammer to a bloody halt on your opponents head.

But being berserk? How would you lose berserkerness (here is that wierd word again) when you are fighting in combat? This is why I don't think it should be expendable when used for abilities, it should only grow more.

However, there are ways you could lose it. Say, at the beginning of combat (with no berserkerness), if you start taking many critical strikes/lots of damage it would "scare you" or "put you into a shock" almost. So your berserkerness would drop during this time. But say, after you reached a certain point in your blood-crazed frenzy, critical hits against you and massive amounts of damage would just make your more pissed off, thus increasing your berserkerness instead of decreasing it!

I just think that makes so much more sense, basically making the goal of the Choppa "Ta git stuck in an' stay in!". And also fits Mythics ideas of "building up to something strong as combat wages on".

This would add more strategy to the class in combat I think, trying to lay low more when combat begins, but once you get pissed off enough, you can really start tearing through people. Also, of course, being out of combat will gradually drain your berserkerness as I discussed above.

And to represent this berserking power, your character will grow, eyes grow more red, fists maybe even start glowing red, faster more powerful looking animations, etc. Much of this has been added to the game already, but with all this in-game graphical changes the Choppa goes through, I don't see a need for a "berserk bar" or something in the UI to represent anything. You could just look at your character and know. And also, by looking at your action bar, you could see what berserking abilities unlocked as you get more and more heated and invovled in combat.

I like this idea a lot more than "Mash Berserk every 60s so I can use my uber abilities". It doesn't sound like a berserking Orc to me, in the slightest. There needs to be some sort of incentive to be in combat, and do well in combat (as in not die) to unlock your abilities. Mashing an ability key every 60s doesn't do any of this.

Mash "Berserk" and have acces to your most powerful Berseking abilities like that? Why not have some way to build up this berserkerness? Wouldn't that make more sense? And also make these "special and powerful" berserk abilities that much sweeter when you unleashed them? The current mechanic just seems dull.

[Spikey]

I have to say, I wanted to play the choppa. Crazy orc melee DPS sounded fun. And although I disagree on a lot of the points about it being a noob class... It certainly won't be the class for me.

The thing that really gets me is if you're in sustained combat your class is only at full potential 1/3 of the time. I doubt mythic would make it so your a super class 1/3 of the time and normal 2/3 of the time.

As far as non-twitch MMOs go anyway there isn't that much skill involved anyway. Jesus, anyone with a half decent IQ can manage to use an approprite skill at an appropriate time. Just because you're playing a harder class doesn't make you a better player :/

[craptacular]

Lots of people are bashing beserk for being a simple mechanic, and i don't really see what's wrong with it. No it isn't the most POTENTIALLY skillful way of playing, but it's still a type of game play in its own right with advantages and disadvantages that make it a class worth playing, and i think to say it takes ABSOLUTELY NO skill is somewhat exaggerated. People are talking about this as if choppa ONLY has the beserk ability. You are forgetting all the other abilities that he using, beserk or not. The beserk ability is just a passive supporting action that you have to keep an eye on, WHILST managing your moderately large range of abilities, ensuring that you are getting the absolute maximum DPS for your group, which is your role. I'm not saying it takes huge amounts of skill, it's just things like that, which i could explain far better if i wasn't tired, that you have to at least think about.

The fact is, it IS simple, and that CAN SOMETIMES be a GOOD thing.

All careers should be different. Sure you have the same archtypes but they each must have something that makes them feel different to play.

The fact is, and i'm pretty sure this is true despite my appaulingly limited knowledge of greenskins, orcs are SIMPLE CREATURES.

They arn't going to have complicated strategies or any kind of thoughtful tactics beyond the imagination of the player controlling them.

Basically, ORC SMASH, and I think everyone has a little part inside of them that agrees that can be a good thing. :cool:

P.S: my first warhammeralliance post! HAI GAIZ :eek:

[Tweeter]

I thought the makeup of it was that you can't pop Berserk whenever, you need to have put out a bunch of damage to unlock it, kind of like how the Shaman has to build up WAAGH! for his things. If it's not like this and just a simple push of the button as you said... it's a little deterring but nothing to make me refuse to try it out. I'll agree it's a mechanic that could be greatly improved.

[Button Basher]

Aye you're right, you have to be in combat for a little while before u can pop berserk. That makes it a bit better than just being able to berserk whenever u want. But a better thing would be like momentum in the form of rage, it's not that it's a much better mechanic or anything, it just fits orcs a lot better.

[Vidrak]

Aye you're right, you have to be in combat for a little while before u can pop berserk. That makes it a bit better than just being able to berserk whenever u want. But a better thing would be like momentum in the form of rage, it's not that it's a much better mechanic or anything, it just fits orcs a lot better.
This is what I am saying. A Berserk skill that you press is just a plain, stupid idea. If you have ever been in a fight, or a situation in which you become angry, there is no "Click my berserker rage ability now!". You build up to a sort of fighting frenzy over time.

Why whould the Choppa have a key that they mash in order to go Berserk? Even if you have to be in combat for a short time, I still think it is absolutely stupid as hell. Why doesn't the Choppa just become more and more enraged based on time in combat vs. damage dealt/damage recieved, etc.

Something is just very, very wrong with a Berserking skill on a cooldown/button mash. So you go Berserk in a fight for 15-20s, then you just stop? Even though you are still in combat and taking enemies down in a blood thristy rampage? Why would an ORC (of all creatures) let up in a situation like this?

I don't think many of you see the rediculousness of this current idea of berserk when you compare it to how an Orc fights. They only get stronger, more frenzied when fighting. The only time they "give up" is when every limb is hacked off from their body.

Again, this 60s cooldown berserk ability that you mash and become beserk for 20s is the straight up, worst designed mechanic of all time for the Greenskins. I am surprised GW has not shot it down before it was implemented. I just hope a "more orcy" mechanic is implemented for the Choppa before release.

[Foofmonger]

Hopefully Gem was right Vid, and that mechanic was a placeholder until they got the real one working.

[Button Basher]

Hopefully Gem was right Vid, and that mechanic was a placeholder until they got the real one working.

Aye let's truly hope that because I've seen some much better mechanics that people have posted here on WHA.

[vazzaroth]

I got the 4th page of this thread and decided it was tl;dr.

I hope they don't fundamentally change how they have said Berserk works so far. I love the fact that choppas, who I fully expect to be doing very good damage and such normally, have an overdrive moment where they can kick in further damage and speed. Most of the points I've seen against it appear to assume that choppa will be teh gimped when not in berserk, but I don't understand why. Besides, there are so many variables there really is no reason to establish any sort of opinion on ANY mechanic yet. The Hammerer momentum might end up sucking is just as probable that berserk or mutations will. Until we get numbers, nothing is certain.

Also, I laughed when someone said the beserk mechanic was "un-orcy and too simple." Simple is the definition of orcy. Really, the MOST orcy way to go about this is give the Choppa one attack called FIGHT where proceeds to hack at anything that moves. :eek:

[Button Basher]

I got the 4th page of this thread and decided it was tl;dr.

I hope they don't fundamentally change how they have said Berserk works so far. I love the fact that choppas, who I fully expect to be doing very good damage and such normally, have an overdrive moment where they can kick in further damage and speed. Most of the points I've seen against it appear to assume that choppa will be teh gimped when not in berserk, but I don't understand why. Besides, there are so many variables there really is no reason to establish any sort of opinion on ANY mechanic yet. The Hammerer momentum might end up sucking is just as probable that berserk or mutations will. Until we get numbers, nothing is certain.

Also, I laughed when someone said the beserk mechanic was "un-orcy and too simple." Simple is the definition of orcy. Really, the MOST orcy way to go about this is give the Choppa one attack called FIGHT where proceeds to hack at anything that moves. :eek:

I dunno who said "un-orcy and too simple." but you have to seperate them. Aye the mechanic is indeed un-orcy because an orc enrages as he gets torn in his own bloodlust in the heat of battle. It's not like an orc walks thru the forest between some trees and all of the sudden he goes berserk and starts roaring while no one is around.

And for the mechanic being simple is more the player's point of view. Most people wouldn't like a 1 button mechanic but more a build up on rage. I have to agree with someone (can't remember who) that you can use it to nuke a healer down. But that would mean I would try to save it as much as I can to use it against healers that pop up, and then my overall damage would be slimmed greatly.

But yeah we'll see what Mythic eventually comes up with.

[Newber]

I've put off posting in this thread for a while, I think it's time you should hear my ideas.

Okay, in my opinion, the whole "Berserk is triggered by a button press" business is stupid, for obvious reasons, as stated by Foofmonger and a few others. But as for a new system in place, I suggest something closer to the Style Meter (http://www.gamespot.com/features/6185546/p-2.html) in Devil may cry.

So, your Berserk indicator (to the right of the action bar) starts out empty. Let's say you enter a fight, and start doing some damage, taking some hits, and dishing some crits. Each time you do one of these, your meter fills up a little. Once your meter reaches the top, you go berserk for 20 seconds.

Once you go berserk, your current Berserk meter starts depleting, but a new indicator appears to the right of the first one. While you are berserk, however, your meter only fills up when you use damaging abilities. If you manage to fill this meter up, you go into the second stage of berserk for 18 seconds, adding yet another indicator to the right of it. This indicator will last for only 16 seconds before it completely depletes, but is more powerful than the second stage. The next will have 14, and so on and so on. If your meter completely depletes, you have to start all over again, and will lose all of your berserking abilities. the meter depletes quickly after 5 seconds out of combat.

Each successive indicator will be harder and harder to fill up in the alloted time, because it subtracts from the alloted time you have to fill up. However, as you progress through the different levels of berserk, your abilities and stat bonuses will become stronger and stronger.

I think this is a good representation of how the Choppa's berserk should work, because it reflects what the official description says.

Playing a Choppa is straight forward. Get in the fight, and stay there as long as you can without getting yourself killed. The longer you’re in a fight, the more your morale builds and the more berserk you become. This makes your attacks more powerful and unlocks new devastating abilities. However, the use of these abilities depletes your morale and thus reduces your combat strength. You must decide whether it’s more important to maintain your berserker frenzy or unleash a powerful attack upon your foe. You must also remember that you are less well armored than your Black Orc cousins, and generally less durable. The fighting itself may be simple, but strategy is required to reach and maintain your peak effectiveness.


It also keeps thins interesting as you try to deal as much damage as possible in the alloted time to go berserk -- At the next level.

You must decide whether it's more important to maintain your berserker frenzy or unleash a power attack upon your foe. Now, as the system I described works, this still holds true. Effectively, you could try to do as much damage as possible when you are in the first stage of berserk so you could get to the next one, but you could also consider how the new meter starts as soon as you reach your peak. Effectively, you could keep your berserk up longer if you space out your damaging abilities instead of trying to deal it as fast as possible. Less damaging abilities means more time in berserk and more damage for the alloted time due to buffed auto attack damage.

I also think the Marauder mechanic needs some work, but that's for a different thread.

[Oblivionate]

Don't think down on Choppa's berserk so much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW-y4nNPkBE

Choppa's can hold their own against other classes just fine without berserk, for the most part at least; think of the skill as more of an icing on the cake, versus a I-can't-do-anything-without-it skill.

I'm sure Mythic will find ways to make this skill better; and in the Choppa's career mastery, I'm also sure there will be skills to improve the time/cooldown, as well as buffs Berserk gives.

[Gemini]

It's not the power or reliance on it that bothers me (and others), it's just Choppa's originally had what I consider a much more interesting mechanic than what we had in those conventions. However, that has all been discussed to death before.

[Button Basher]

I've put off posting in this thread for a while, I think it's time you should hear my ideas.

Okay, in my opinion, the whole "Berserk is triggered by a button press" business is stupid, for obvious reasons, as stated by Foofmonger and a few others. But as for a new system in place, I suggest something closer to the Style Meter (http://www.gamespot.com/features/6185546/p-2.html) in Devil may cry.

So, your Berserk indicator (to the right of the action bar) starts out empty. Let's say you enter a fight, and start doing some damage, taking some hits, and dishing some crits. Each time you do one of these, your meter fills up a little. Once your meter reaches the top, you go berserk for 20 seconds.

Once you go berserk, your current Berserk meter starts depleting, but a new indicator appears to the right of the first one. While you are berserk, however, your meter only fills up when you use damaging abilities. If you manage to fill this meter up, you go into the second stage of berserk for 18 seconds, adding yet another indicator to the right of it. This indicator will last for only 16 seconds before it completely depletes, but is more powerful than the second stage. The next will have 14, and so on and so on. If your meter completely depletes, you have to start all over again, and will lose all of your berserking abilities. the meter depletes quickly after 5 seconds out of combat.

Each successive indicator will be harder and harder to fill up in the alloted time, because it subtracts from the alloted time you have to fill up. However, as you progress through the different levels of berserk, your abilities and stat bonuses will become stronger and stronger.

I think this is a good representation of how the Choppa's berserk should work, because it reflects what the official description says.



It also keeps thins interesting as you try to deal as much damage as possible in the alloted time to go berserk -- At the next level.

You must decide whether it's more important to maintain your berserker frenzy or unleash a power attack upon your foe. Now, as the system I described works, this still holds true. Effectively, you could try to do as much damage as possible when you are in the first stage of berserk so you could get to the next one, but you could also consider how the new meter starts as soon as you reach your peak. Effectively, you could keep your berserk up longer if you space out your damaging abilities instead of trying to deal it as fast as possible. Less damaging abilities means more time in berserk and more damage for the alloted time due to buffed auto attack damage.

I also think the Marauder mechanic needs some work, but that's for a different thread.

Actually that sounds pretty amazing. I can see The Order now: OMFG a choppa in his 5th berserking stage!! GTFO!!!

However a downside to this might be certain tactical issues. For instance what someone stated was the the berserking ability is a great option to nuke a healer down very fast. You won't really have this option anymore.

[Newber]

Actually that sounds pretty amazing. I can see The Order now: OMFG a choppa in his 5th berserking stage!! GTFO!!!

However a downside to this might be certain tactical issues. For instance what someone stated was the the berserking ability is a great option to nuke a healer down very fast. You won't really have this option anymore.

Maybe this system wouldn't allow you to do that, but they could implement other ways to do this.

For example, simply adding an ability that puts you in a level 1 berserk for 15 seconds on a 5 minute cooldown. This could be used in the exact same fashion as the "system" currently implemented, and would make a nice "o shi" button.

[Vidrak]

Maybe this system wouldn't allow you to do that, but they could implement other ways to do this.

For example, simply adding an ability that puts you in a level 1 berserk for 15 seconds on a 5 minute cooldown. This could be used in the exact same fashion as the "system" currently implemented, and would make a nice "o shi" button.
I have to agree with your idea, Newber. The mechanics you discussed are more in depth than what I think this class should be, it is basically, the same thing.

As you said, you are meant to get into combat, and stay alive. The longer you do this, the more powerful you are SUPPOSED to become.

Getting into combat, mashing your Berserk ability and using it for 20s, then having it drop ... so you have to wait for a cool down. How does that fit with "get into combat and stay into combat to become more powerful"? You are only powerful for 20 seconds, and you are actually weaker at the END of combat then you are closer to the beginning.

This is not how a Berserking class should operate, not even close. I think some kind of Berserker bar (like Newber talked about) would be the only way it would make sense. But personally, I would rather have no bar, and just be looking at how large/fast and how much my fists/eyes were glowing as well as my hotbar to see what abilities are unlocking as I berserk into combat.

The only thing I cannot agree with is "losing berserk in combat". I could see you becoming less berserk in combat if say it slows down (as you killed most of the enemies off), but losing berserk totally and starting over while you are still fighting does not seem right. You are an Orc for Gork's sake! I see your berserking power dropping very fast out of combat, but hardly at all in combat.

That is how an Orc should be played, staying in combat (it is the only thing they live for after all), so you should be rewarded heavily for doing so. And that cost would be at a higher chance of death, so close monitoring of health would be needed.

And I am not saying you should be a super powerhouse when in Berserk, this can all be balanced to make it even. But if you are in combat for 10 minutes straight, then yes, that level of berserk will be quite potent. We are talking mechanics here, not "who is more overpowered than who". Mechanics of a class do not have a ton of bearing on this, as damages/snare amounts/etc. can all be modified to keep them in check with other classes.

I hope the devs read some of this, or at least the beta boyz are giving them some good feedback (and they listen). I guess, I will just have to hope for the best.

[Circasurvive]

I am a fast typer and I get bored at work :)

What about school? thats when im hitting the forums, rather then listening to the lecture:p:p:p:p

[Vidrak]

What about school? thats when im hitting the forums, rather then listening to the lecture:p:p:p:p
Whatever works, I guess I just payed more attention in school. Work, seems to have a lot more downtime during the day ... like say, the time between your classes. It usually comes in spurts ... work hard for a week, then a couple days more laid back, then it picks back up.

I am no longer in school, so I don't have a choice to visit the forums during lectures ... anymore at least :)

[Circasurvive]

I am no longer in school, so I don't have a choice to visit the forums during lectures ... anymore at least :)

Showoff... I </3 U

[broodjeork]

since there fine poleshing the orcs and dwarfs now, im interessted what they will do with berserk.

because now the mechanisim indeed seems a bit simple and not really appropiet
it isnt necceseraly a bad mechanism.

either way my thoughts are that they should make a berserk bar (as suggested) that fills up as you fight more. the higher the bar the better, faster, stronger, harder you hit. but also that the higher the bar gets the more berserk abilities come available
and each abilatie used should lower the bar again.

this is my idea of how it should work
but lets not forget to not make things to complicated, because yor average orc player ( me included) should still be able to understand the mechanisim somewhat

[Vidrak]

since there fine poleshing the orcs and dwarfs now, im interessted what they will do with berserk.
They are polishing the Orcs and Dwarfs now? I thought it was a Empire/Chaos only stress test or something? Or is that over now?

That was off topic, but yes. I don't want an incredibly in depth berserking feature for this class. I just want something that makes sense for an ORC. And a 20s duration, 60s CD is not "the" berserk feature that fits this class in my mind.

It is what it is, and it will probably become something different between now and release, I just hope it does not suck as bad as it appears from the description I have heard.

[broodjeork]

They are polishing the Orcs and Dwarfs now? I thought it was a Empire/Chaos only stress test or something? Or is that over now?

That was off topic, but yes. I don't want an incredibly in depth berserking feature for this class. I just want something that makes sense for an ORC. And a 20s duration, 60s CD is not "the" berserk feature that fits this class in my mind.

It is what it is, and it will probably become something different between now and release, I just hope it does not suck as bad as it appears from the description I have heard.

from what ive heard, in vidoes and forums, orcs and dwarfs are no longer available in beta. that is because they are polishing, improving them to bring them to the same level as chaos/empire dark/high elves.

anyway i wonder how berserk is going to be affected by all this. because if there is already so much complaining here, i doubt theyle leave it the same

[mixeh]

wers da boyz at, i wanna eat me some hummies!

[Under_World]

Last I heard they were testing high end PvP - which factions I don't know.

Zerking makes avalible abilities that would be too powerful to use all the time. Abilities that are overpowered some of the time, are overpowered all of the time.

So I guess we have the option of them changing it so Choppas get balanced abilities that we can use all the time - or - overpowered abilities that they can only use some of the time.

I would take the OP abilities over the nerfed ones.