Shadow Warrior dual use.

[ChosenOne]

A discussion on the Swordmaster forum led to talk of whether or not shadow warriors can use two swords at once. So here we go, lets discuss. :D


To me it seems very obvious that they do. In the cinematic pics we see a bow, arrows, and two swords sitting there. Why two if they are not both used at the same time. I would hazard a guess that at some time in the cinematic that shadow warrior pulls out both at the same time.

Also we know swordmasters do not have dual use capability. They can sword and board but are more focused on the two handed sword.

I would also assume that the white lion elf is more focused on a two handed axe. With a melee pet at his side that could mean an awful lot of attacks in a short amount of time if that elf was using two axes.

That leaves only the shadow warrior as the most legitimate dual use character on the high elven side. With the dark elves having two dual use characters, I feel its safe to say after all of the above that the shadow warrior is indeed a dual sword using character when in melee.

[Dagoth]

There was concept art of various pairs of elven swords some time ago, I thought they were for the swordmaster, but now I'm pretty sure that they must have been SW swords.

[ChosenOne]

Is it just me or was there not a high elf in that last video of the month confrontation that didnt stand out very well due to coloring of its gear but it was using two swords?

[Tyrannis]

You have to remember, dual wielding doesn't necessarily mean more damage. You're comparing Dark and High Elfs as the same thing in terms of weapons. Damage will only differ when comparing class achetypes and abilities. Again, dual wield does not mean more damage! :)

I'm not ranting or attacking, just stressing a point. Dual weapons will just mean speedier attacks, perfect for disrupting spells and supplementing hit and run attacks.

[ChosenOne]

You have to remember, dual wielding doesn't necessarily mean more damage. You're comparing Dark and High Elfs as the same thing in terms of weapons. Damage will only differ when comparing class achetypes and abilities. Again, dual wield does not mean more damage! :)

I'm not ranting or attacking, just stressing a point. Dual weapons will just mean speedier attacks, perfect for disrupting spells and supplementing hit and run attacks.

Completely agree. Dual use doesnt mean more damage at all. But it is a character choice in that some players really like that option. You touched on speedier attacks to set back and disrupt spells. IF the white lions can dual wield on top of having pet attacks then that is ALOT of spell disruption possibility.

Plus, dual use of weapons is often more beneficial against lesser armored targets because their armor mitigates on each attack. Thus bigger weapons deliver bigger hits and thus less damage is mitigated where as with two weapons they each deliver less damage per hit and a higher percentage of the damage is mitigated. We can already see the shadow warrior is made for attacking the lesser armored characters do to its ranged damage being physically based damage due to arrows rather then magical. So having it dual wield just goes along with the fact that its best targets are lesser armored characters.

[stumbles]

There was concept art of various pairs of elven swords some time ago, I thought they were for the swordmaster, but now I'm pretty sure that they must have been SW swords.

nah im sure those were swordmaster swords remember he can still use 1h swords with his shield :P

[Dranex]

i hope SW get dual wield.. one of my favorite aspects of any game :P holding to swords...and holding a bow as i gun people down at range ;) sounds fun to me :P

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

ChosenOne; Before I begin, on read back I saw how this post may at first appear and thought I should start by saying I'm not trying to attack or offend you in any way, and I have a lot of respect for you and what you contribute to these forums. You're just the only guy so far who's actually given some arguments towards this subect that I can respond to. Just wanted you to know that - usually a wall of quotes like this is a flame but in this case there were just a load of things I wanted to address. :)




To me it seems very obvious that they do. In the cinematic pics we see a bow, arrows, and two swords sitting there. Why two if they are not both used at the same time. I would hazard a guess that at some time in the cinematic that shadow warrior pulls out both at the same time.

The fact that they are in the cinematic pics doesn't mean they are necessarily in the cinematic, they could have just made two models that they liked and only used one. If I made a model that looked that cool and didn't get used I'd probably try and get it released somehow to be admired by WAR fans... The swords are also very different, they may be showing us two so we can see what we can expect of the sword choices - I was very excited to see a guardless sword - very cool. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't think we can say it's obvious that in-game they will have dual-wield from pictures from a cinematic we haven't seen yet. And as many others before me have said, the cinematics often have little-bearing on what happens in-game.




Also we know swordmasters do not have dual use capability. They can sword and board but are more focused on the two handed sword.

I would also assume that the white lion elf is more focused on a two handed axe. With a melee pet at his side that could mean an awful lot of attacks in a short amount of time if that elf was using two axes.

That leaves only the shadow warrior as the most legitimate dual use character on the high elven side. With the dark elves having two dual use characters, I feel its safe to say after all of the above that the shadow warrior is indeed a dual sword using character when in melee.

We haven't ever been told that there would be a dual weilding High Elf by Mythic. And unless Mythic have decided to re-invent yet another career, there are no TT examples of Shadow Warriors dual-wielding so there is no lore reason for them to have it. And from a design standpoint. it would be unwise to give any High Elf a dual sword style as that is a defining characteristic of the Dark Elves, and as they've already had a lot of their individuality undermined it isn't something I want to see.




Plus, dual use of weapons is often more beneficial against lesser armored targets because their armor mitigates on each attack. Thus bigger weapons deliver bigger hits and thus less damage is mitigated where as with two weapons they each deliver less damage per hit and a higher percentage of the damage is mitigated. We can already see the shadow warrior is made for attacking the lesser armored characters do to its ranged damage being physically based damage due to arrows rather then magical. So having it dual wield just goes along with the fact that its best targets are lesser armored characters.

When describing the archetypes, Mythic have so far stated that the ranged DPS careers will be best against heavy armour and weakest against melee careers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR-yJNiKynk) (pause at 2:20). Add to that the fact we have no evidence at all to suggest that SWs cannot use magic arrows or that physical damage from ranged attack will be less effective against armour, and it's hard for me to see SWs as having dual-wielding for the reasons you give. I really don't see how "we can already see the shadow warrior is made for attacking the lesser armored characters" at all, I've seen no evidence to suggest this, other than what is said in the career overview (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/HighElves/Careers/ShadowWarrior.php) about fighting a SW at range -

Ranged attackers should attempt to keep the Shadow Warrior at a reasonable distance. They will still take a beating from his long range archery, but a Shadow Warrior poses a much more significant threat if they are allowed to come into short range. It is only then that they can unleash abilities that are suited for interrupting spells.This is referring to the fact that the SW has the weakest ranged attack and (possibly) strongest melee out of the ranged DPS careers. It doesn't suggest that the SW is designed to fight against low armoured classes, it just shows that to beat our own archetype we will have to use melee.



Sorry, we get dual wielding. Seen the cinematic pics? There is a bow.....there are arrows....and there are Two swords. Also if you look at the last video of the month you can see a high elf with two swords in it. Guess who that is?

Now I'll respond to your post in the Swordmaster thread (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29221&page=3). I've looked over the video of the month, and assuming it's this one (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/flash/2008-01_VotM.html) there were only a few instances in which it looked like there might be a SW with two swords.
The first is when the two sides are lining up and the character to the left of the swordmaster at first glace looked like an elf but after much pausing I managed to see it's a Witch Hunter. The bad quality and drab colours made IDing him hard.
The second is a short shot with a zealot in the foreground on the right and a Squig Herder just appearing on the left of the screen, and there is a Shadow Warrior in the midground fighting melee. I thought he was dual-wielding at first glance but saw after repeating it that he's actually holding his bow in his left hand.
There's a third shot of a SW between two Black Orcs but he is obscured by a green cloud for most of the shot, but pausing at the right moment shows it's a bow in the offhand.I also went through this footage (http://uk.gamespot.com/video/520538/6186186/videoplayerpop?) in HD which has a lot of recent Shadow Warrior footage and still saw no dual-wielding, other than when the SWs were holding a bow and a sword. I think this might be a case of poor quality footage making the bow look like an offhand weapon.

[ChosenOne]

Awww, your killing me here. To fight with just a single sword and nothing else at melee? That definately weakens the assault stance.

While I agree the cinematic is not a definition of what we will get in game because obviously the first one wasnt. This one though is much closer to release, thus the classes should be finalized that are in it and what they wield. Yes, classes like the blackguard may be getting an overhaul but the look of them will probably remain the same. So that is why I take greater stock in what we see in this cinematic. If we see the shadow warrior dual wielding at some point I would indeed believe we can dual wield in the game and would not likely change my view unless a dev came out and said otherwise or if we found out after NDA drop that they dont dual wield.


Finally to speak on the initial part of your post directed to me. You neednt make some special add on in hopes of not upsetting me. Yes it got a bit rough in certain threads but I certainly hope that isnt what defines my posting habits here. You make good points on this. To me I just want to know the truth of what we will see in the game.

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

While I agree the cinematic is not a definition of what we will get in game because obviously the first one wasnt. This one though is much closer to release, thus the classes should be finalized that are in it and what they wield. Yes, classes like the blackguard may be getting an overhaul but the look of them will probably remain the same. So that is why I take greater stock in what we see in this cinematic. If we see the shadow warrior dual wielding at some point I would indeed believe we can dual wield in the game and would not likely change my view unless a dev came out and said otherwise or if we found out after NDA drop that they dont dual wield.

I agree with you that the new cinematic will be closer to the game than the first and although not definitive, if the Shadow Warrior does dual wield in the cine then I agree that it will very likely be in the game, but right now I'm not going to base my guesses on what we've seen so far. Let's hope the cinematic gets released soon!


Finally to speak on the initial part of your post directed to me. You neednt make some special add on in hopes of not upsetting me. Yes it got a bit rough in certain threads but I certainly hope that isnt what defines my posting habits here. You make good points on this. To me I just want to know the truth of what we will see in the game.

I actually read those other threads after posting this, so my reason for the first statement wasn't based on anything in them. I just like to be careful not to upset anyone unless that is my actual goal (which btw is a very, very rare occurence).

To fight with just a single sword and nothing else at melee? That definately weakens the assault stance.

Perhaps, though against ranged enemies we already know we have the edge in melee, and I personally think I'll more likely to be using snares and then backing away to range if I get involved in close combat. We might get some cool assault moves that do DoT plus we musn't forget "Vengeance of Nagarythe" - backstab damage without the need to be behind is going to cause some serious problems for our foes! :mrgreen:

[Eredhel]

Well this got me interested so I looked through the VotM in question and paused it. At first glance I thought that, yes that SW is duel-wielding. But then I took a screenshot and zoomed in using Photoshop. It's a bit hard to tell what is in his right hand because there are spells going off at this point in the movie but to me it looks like he is wielding a sword and a bow, not two swords.


http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o195/Calamir/SW_movie.jpg

[mister chief]

i would say yes because well its cool and i have a warrior on wow who duel wields but he sucks so does the whole faction (alliance) so im joining war hammer btw when does it come out:mrgreen: oh wait and yes guy above me if u look at the tt shadow warriors they use a bow and a sword

[Kaeldor]

Well this got me interested so I looked through the VotM in question and paused it. At first glance I thought that, yes that SW is duel-wielding. But then I took a screenshot and zoomed in using Photoshop. It's a bit hard to tell what is in his right hand because there are spells going off at this point in the movie but to me it looks like he is wielding a sword and a bow, not two swords.


http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o195/Calamir/SW_movie.jpg

When I first say the interview vid with Paul at Gamespot, I really liked how the SW fights with a sword and bow in melee. Looked just like the TT models. And thanks to Aelthurian and Eredhel for clarifying the Sw in VOTM. I didn't even notice there were SW in that vid.

[Eredhel]

oh wait and yes guy above me if u look at the tt shadow warriors they use a bow and a sword


Indeed they do but we are trying work out if Shadow Warriors will be able to duel-wield in WAR or not. :D

Kaeldor: neither did I until the others pointed it out. It's a very blink and you'll miss it moment though.

[Doc Lumbago]

maybe SW can dual wield single-handed ....

BEWARE OF THE SHADOW WARRIOR´S ALMIGHTY CHOP STICK STANCE!!!

[Nightz]

How can you dual weild 2 handers who has 4 arms besides a marauder?

[Gemini]

How can you dual weild 2 handers who has 4 arms besides a marauder?

If you are really really buff, you can wield what would normally be a two-hander in one hand, and another in the other. You'll also look like a moron.

[Athanas]

What happened to the SW's shield? I could have sworn they always carried sword, shield, and bow. I guess they changed that with new models? I havent played the TT in years but I thought it made more sense for them to carry three tools making them more versatile and efficient.

[Velryn]

Dual wielding would be awesome but I believe I saw SW npc's using a sword in one hand and a bow in the other like the miniatures. Whether this means anything or not for the actual players I know not.

[Eredhel]

Well if mythic are emphasizing that Shadow Warriors are closer to the Druchii than their Asur brothers and sisters, they may give them duel-wielding capability to draw attention to that, seeing as duel-wielding seems to be a Druchii thing at this stage.

[BeldarinSkysabre]

Personally, I see no reason why there won't be options. But I'd like to use a two-handed sword, myself, just because everything I've ever played in an MMO dual wielded. Also, buying one piece of gear is cheaper than buying two :D

[Badar_Perc]

Personally, I see no reason why there won't be options. But I'd like to use a two-handed sword, myself, just because everything I've ever played in an MMO dual wielded. Also, buying one piece of gear is cheaper than buying two :D


I agree here! Nothing like wittling someone down with a bow to finish them off with a huge hack from a two hander! :p

[Eredhel]

Well I think we can put this argument to rest...at least for the time being. From the official Shadow Warrior page on the official site:

The Look of the Shadow Warrior
Elegantly tooled light leather and scale mail armor
Thick hoods and mantles, draped over concealing cloaks
Wields finely crafted longbows and a thin razor sharp Elven longswordNo mention of duel-wielding.

[ChosenOne]

Well I think we can put this argument to rest...at least for the time being. From the official Shadow Warrior page on the official site:

No mention of duel-wielding.

All I am gonna say is I no longer believe them to be dual wielders.

[Creslan]

I don't believe the SW will be a dual wielding class (ie two swords). That's not to say that they could not attack with that off hand, either be it a punch, grab or throw attack as a means to escape melee range.

I'm actually hoping that SW's do not get Dual wield. But give them light fast sword maybe with a melee haste self buff to incease their attack rate when in melee range.

[ChosenOne]

I don't believe the SW will be a dual wielding class (ie two swords). That's not to say that they could not attack with that off hand, either be it a punch, grab or throw attack as a means to escape melee range.

I'm actually hoping that SW's do not get Dual wield. But give them light fast sword maybe with a melee haste self buff to incease their attack rate when in melee range.

Well the latest vids released from Paris show the shadow warrior only holding one sword when its out so I would safe to say we can officially say the shadow warrior does not dual use.

Case closed.