Blackguard pvp

[Black Guard]

Your ideas on a blackguard owning in 1 v 3, 1 v 2 or 1 v 1?


discuss..

[Spear4Life]

personally, i think it would be silly if it was easy for any class to win a 1v3, balance is a must.

that being said, tank oriented classes are ussually better in groups, while burst damage classes are the ones that ussually have a better chance in against the odds fights (in accordance with most MMO's),

For example, I played a Arcane Power/Fire mage in WoW, because the quickcast/arcane power/pyroblast allowed for me to drop one enemy extremely fast, then have a chance against a second in 1v1.

While of course I can see all classes doing good damage, im not sure blackgaurd will fall under the "burst damage" category.

[Dread_Knight]

I'm pretty sure i've read somewhere that fights will take a longer time than in most MMOs and won't end as fast as the legendary PoM Pyro mages, so i'd assume that the odds fights would be even harder

Even so, beating 2v1 always depends on certain things, level, gear and capitalizing on their mistakes, and not making any yourself. The black guard is a tank class, so this will mean the fights will take even longer. If you're good for the 3 conditions I put above, you should probably win the 2v1, but even so, it'll be hard. There are other factors that will lead to you winning an outnumbered fight, but usually it comes down to those 3 and the fact that some careers are simply more suited to fighting the outnumbered fights.

The Black Guard looks like a formidable enemy, they've stated that all careers will have some sort of 1v1 capability afaik...But 2v1 always comes down to gear, level and mistakes. Obviously the burst damage of such as a PoM Pyro mage helps, but as far as I know, nothing like that will be implemented in the game

Although I will agree with Spear4Life, 1v3 is very silly to win, either you're some kind of a God on your keyboard / mouse, or they're "special". (If they're the same level as you)

And the black guard has no real means of healing or real nuke damage as far as we can tell and guess, so it will be hard to fight against the odds.

Dread :-)

[sithborn]

with the whole "hate" mechanic meaning the more you hit the BG the more they can do and the more they hurt I can see a good skilled player wining 1v1 and 2v1 but hopefully this game is more about skill so any class could win a 1v1 with the right person at the helm. But as we all should know by now classes have advantages over other classes. So to keep it in terms of the original posters question If you just look at the black guard with all we know now (which is so little) I think they have a pretty good chance at 1v1 and without further information about the class Ill say my personal speculation is they will have a better time with 2v1 than some classes because of the hate mechanic

[thedan]

black guards are defensive melee. they will probably dominate light melee, and get owned by ranged classes.
most likely in 1v1, with some AOEs just for taunting purposes and such (but not the primary damage source)

[Ojike]

Your ideas on a blackguard owning in 1 v 3, 1 v 2 or 1 v 1?


discuss..

a 1v3 at rank 40 should be bloody impossible, a 1v2 should be very very hard even if your skilled and 1v1 should be so so imo.

[Dyst]

Blackguards will be killing everyone, they will cut them with halberds and basically own.

Discuss.

[iCanada]

Well, IMO we will have an easier time with multiple enemys because of hatred.

Perhaps we will have some stances or something. And not general "Attack" "Defense" "Berserk" type of thing but like; "Defensive meat" "Defensive Block" "Normal" "Attack AoE" "Single Attack" "Hatred absorbed AoE" and finally "hatred absorbed single attacks".

This would bring some intense skill and stance dancing to the BG, with perhaps a 5 second CD on each stance to make stance dancing require skill. The offensive ones could have -defence/hp while the defensive ones could minus attack, with normal doing nothing, and the Hatred Absorbed (But requiring almost full Hatred meters!) buffing both sides.

So, i would say if one was good they could possible kill 3 people of the opposing realm. Possible, dont expect it to happen often though.

And the thing about the BG is that even if you spec offensivley you will be needing to keep the aggro from enemies to keep killing via the Hatred mechanic. I love it.

[Dyst]

Well, IMO we will have an easier time with multiple enemys because of hatred.

Perhaps we will have some stances or something. And not general "Attack" "Defense" "Berserk" type of thing but like; "Defensive meat" "Defensive Block" "Normal" "Attack AoE" "Single Attack" "Hatred absorbed AoE" and finally "hatred absorbed single attacks".

This would bring some intense skill and stance dancing to the BG, with perhaps a 5 second CD on each stance to make stance dancing require skill. The offensive ones could have -defence/hp while the defensive ones could minus attack, with normal doing nothing, and the Hatred Absorbed (But requiring almost full Hatred meters!) buffing both sides.

So, i would say if one was good they could possible kill 3 people of the opposing realm. Possible, dont expect it to happen often though.

And the thing about the BG is that even if you spec offensivley you will be needing to keep the aggro from enemies to keep killing via the Hatred mechanic. I love it.
Yes, I really hope the BG will have to deal with some interesting and brilliant mechanic in order to really thrive at battle. This will seperate the people who really are active and focused from those who are not and just play the BG because of its looks or whatever. I think we will probably have such mechanics though, from the sound of Hatred.

[Delolith]

I'm pretty sure i've read somewhere that fights will take a longer time than in most MMOs and won't end as fast as the legendary PoM Pyro mages, so i'd assume that the odds fights would be even harder

Even so, beating 2v1 always depends on certain things, level, gear and capitalizing on their mistakes, and not making any yourself. The black guard is a tank class, so this will mean the fights will take even longer. If you're good for the 3 conditions I put above, you should probably win the 2v1, but even so, it'll be hard. There are other factors that will lead to you winning an outnumbered fight, but usually it comes down to those 3 and the fact that some careers are simply more suited to fighting the outnumbered fights.

The Black Guard looks like a formidable enemy, they've stated that all careers will have some sort of 1v1 capability afaik...But 2v1 always comes down to gear, level and mistakes. Obviously the burst damage of such as a PoM Pyro mage helps, but as far as I know, nothing like that will be implemented in the game

Although I will agree with Spear4Life, 1v3 is very silly to win, either you're some kind of a God on your keyboard / mouse, or they're "special". (If they're the same level as you)

And the black guard has no real means of healing or real nuke damage as far as we can tell and guess, so it will be hard to fight against the odds.

Dread :-)

Wow someone that is actually saying what I am trying to pass to these boards for the past 5-6 months at least. I am so glad that someone else also get the idea of how slower paced battles usually end up.

The battles will last long. Meaning that occasional win by ambushes and heavy dmg lucky criticals are not bound to happen like ever. If you are talking about 40 rank characters then a 3 vs 1 will be impossible...not improbable...impossible. Whatever your class is. Hatred or not...the dmg the blackguard is recieving comes from 3 different sources....I doubt that since he will have more hatred to utilise he will beat 3 people...even 2. If you are good enough you will be able to kill another person. The only chance you will have to beat 2 different people will be if you are actually facing mentaly paralyzed people or if you have immense rank/gear difference.

An example:

Let's assume you are actually fighting let's say a melee dpser and a tank? Don't even include a ranged at this point which the tank class has its weakness. Let's say with the hatred gained you will have the DPS of the DPS class and survivability of the tank.

I guess your first target will be the melee DPS? You are taunted by the tank and the melee DPSer is guarded too, so you are doing less than half the dmg the DPS class is doing to you...and you have a tank pounding you too. Can you say GG?

You turn to the tank as first target. While you still maintain the DPS of the DPS class due to hatred you are hitting a tank so in the time you actually kill the tank the melee DPSer actually kills you since you have both done the same dmg on heavy armour high hp targets, excluding completely the dmg done to you by the tank. Pick any 2 classes and see what the mathematical outcome will be.

The only way that a Blackguard could win a 2 vs 1 battle would be if there is HEAVY CC on the game which is not a fact and the BG could remove from the battle one of the 2 people for at least 15 seconds. In the 15-20 seconds that a battle will last if another person is not afk do not expect to win a 1 vs 2 battle unless some of the above exceptions happen. 1vs3 is out! (Monty Pythons anyone;) )

Delolith

P.S I do agree with what Ojike said too...
P.S 2 Hope it is easier to read this way Ojike ;)

[Ojike]

Delolith you trying to make me blind with that wall of text? O.o

[Delolith]

Delolith you trying to make me blind with that wall of text? O.o

I am sorry for that will try to paragraph it so it is easier to read.

Delolith

[sm|te]

I think 1v2 should be possible depending on the skill level of the 1, not his gear. However, I think if there is a level 40 pvp master in a scenario battling 3 level 31 normal players, I'd have to say I think there should be a chance that the lvl 40 would win.

[Delolith]

What I write refers to all candidates been 40 rank Sm|te. I doubt people are refering to 1 vs 2 or 3 battles against people lower lvl than you. I am pretty possitive they are talking 1 vs 2 and 1 vs 3 with all 40 ranked characters.

Delolith

P.S Yes in the case of a 40 rank vs 31rank I don't see a problem with 1 vs 2...maybe 1 vs 3 might be pushing it a little. Ahh and check the reasoning I gave about the one person loose. If you have an excellent PvPer...saying a 100% PvP ability one...and 2 at 80% ones (which will pretty much be the average of players) I doubt you will see the first one win against the 2 because of the long drawn battles. I don't want to sound that the long drawn battles are a bad thing. They allow you to unfold your tactical abilities to the maximum and factors like ambushes, who hits first and lucky crits to not play the major role of the battle. However, they will magnify the importance of numbers which might be a good thing if you consider we are in WAR...which wants to actually depict a war...and numbers do matter in wars. I don't want to be accused as a moderate skilled player that wants to win by zerging really leet PvPers. I was voted as the most feared PvPer on EQ2 European server (Darathar) and I was winning many battles 1 vs 2....some 1 vs 3...and I can remember once when I caught a whole group out of suprise and killed them all. However, now that I retrospect this I don't believe it was fair for 6 people to loose to 1 (even considering my player skill and items I had on my character). Nothing should allow this....I doubt I made 6 people of my lvl happy that day...and this is rather unfortunate.

[Randalthor]

I'm pretty sure i've read somewhere that fights will take a longer time than in most MMOs and won't end as fast as the legendary PoM Pyro mages, so i'd assume that the odds fights would be even harder

Even so, beating 2v1 always depends on certain things, level, gear and capitalizing on their mistakes, and not making any yourself. The black guard is a tank class, so this will mean the fights will take even longer. If you're good for the 3 conditions I put above, you should probably win the 2v1, but even so, it'll be hard. There are other factors that will lead to you winning an outnumbered fight, but usually it comes down to those 3 and the fact that some careers are simply more suited to fighting the outnumbered fights.

The Black Guard looks like a formidable enemy, they've stated that all careers will have some sort of 1v1 capability afaik...But 2v1 always comes down to gear, level and mistakes. Obviously the burst damage of such as a PoM Pyro mage helps, but as far as I know, nothing like that will be implemented in the game

Although I will agree with Spear4Life, 1v3 is very silly to win, either you're some kind of a God on your keyboard / mouse, or they're "special". (If they're the same level as you)

And the black guard has no real means of healing or real nuke damage as far as we can tell and guess, so it will be hard to fight against the odds.

Dread :-)

Hehe, that'd be my rogue. He didn't have good gear at all, but I could take on 3 enemies if I got my opening moves in. Get the Sap and the Blind in and 2 are stunned, then you stunlocking the other one. But rogues were overpowered if everybody had craptacular gear.

[Axxar]

Your ideas on a blackguard owning in 1 v 3, 1 v 2 or 1 v 1?


discuss..

1 v 1. Hmm. Halberd to the face.
1 v 2. Halberd to the face. Halberd to the face.
1 v 3. Halberd to the face. Halberd to the face. Halberd to the face.

[Zanbaur]

1 v 1. Hmm. Halberd to the face.
1 v 2. Halberd to the face. Halberd to the face.
1 v 3. Halberd to the face. Halberd to the face. Halberd to the face.
I agree 100%.

[Xxpect]

The only way that a Blackguard could win a 2 vs 1 battle would be if there is HEAVY CC on the game which is not a fact and the BG could remove from the battle one of the 2 people for at least 15 seconds. In the 15-20 seconds that a battle will last if another person is not afk do not expect to win a 1 vs 2 battle unless some of the above exceptions happen. 1vs3 is out!

There is another way, besides CC, that a Blackguard could win 2v1. There has been a bit of speculation that using a halberd, the BG might end up having some cone or melee range AoE attacks. If the BG has enough attacks that effect multiple targets, he could come out on top. It's all going to come down to the different abilities that the class has and what counters to those abilities his opponents have.

[Aeromere]

Yes i agree with most of you on the fact theat 3v1 is impossible but less than that with basically a rouge/dps dealer with plate armor should be able to survive most battles. this all depends on your computer soeed/lag tho

[Delolith]

There is another way, besides CC, that a Blackguard could win 2v1. There has been a bit of speculation that using a halberd, the BG might end up having some cone or melee range AoE attacks. If the BG has enough attacks that effect multiple targets, he could come out on top. It's all going to come down to the different abilities that the class has and what counters to those abilities his opponents have.

If they have AoE attacks I doubt in that case that they will reach single target DPS as the melee DPS class even with full hatred. Plus on the other side if the AoE attacks are cones or 180 degrees attacks....then if the side with 2 people still both get hit by the AoE then they should be seriously underskilled. 2 people should be at least able to keep themselves positioned in opposite directions so that the BG does not hit both of them. Now if the AoE attacks are 360 degree it is another story, though I doubt it will be like this cause like with Vortex...the AoE pushback of Swordmasters it is a cone 90 or 120 degrees, cannot remember exactly atm. In that case one of the two people should be able to easily avoid the AoE.

Delolith

[Delolith]

Yes i agree with most of you on the fact theat 3v1 is impossible but less than that with basically a rouge/dps dealer with plate armor should be able to survive most battles. this all depends on your computer soeed/lag tho

You do understand that the BG is far from a DPS class with plate armour. You speculate far too early with the current info released on this class. With full hatred I see BG reaching just about the DPS of melee DPS classes....however I see him with full hatred after 30-40 seconds of constant battle, if we are talking for 1 vs 1 and earlier of course in case of more than 1 people hitting him. In that case if he is alone he will probably be able to utilise his top DPS only for a very short period of time. To actually believe that Mythic is gonna make a tank to be able to dish out the same dmg as melee DPS classes all the time or even most of the time I think you are a bit delusional. Even Swordmasters that are said to be the most offenssive (of the current tanks...no clue their comparison to BG) I doubt they will be able to do melee DPS class dmg even speced offenssively. I am sure you get my point. You seriously have to change the picture of your WAR tank compared to the WoW arms/fury spec warrior. I was one myself...and I expect as much.

Delolith

[MidNight]

From what i have understood,and i may be wrong, but the BG is more of a offensive tank. This high dmg from a tank class will be a big threat. Not saying BG dps will be that of a main dmg dealer like a witch elf. We also do not know what abilities the BG will have. If they have an AoE melee attacks how much dmg they will do and what area they cover. We also don't know if the BG will have stuns or knock backs of any kind which are all decisive in 2v1 fights

[Delolith]

From what i have understood,and i may be wrong, but the BG is more of a offensive tank. This high dmg from a tank class will be a big threat. Not saying BG dps will be that of a main dmg dealer like a witch elf. We also do not know what abilities the BG will have. If they have an AoE melee attacks how much dmg they will do and what area they cover. We also don't know if the BG will have stuns or knock backs of any kind which are all decisive in 2v1 fights

I can seriously see them having knockdowns and trips since they are using a polearm as their main weapon...and polearms are very effective at triping. On the other hand I don't see how this is decisive in 2 vs 1 fights since most of the classes have at least 1 stun/knockdown. Almost all melee DPSers have one...and almost all tanks have 1. So I fail to see how a blackguard will be able to beat two 40 rank players (that know what they are doing) even so....

Delolith

[MidNight]

I can seriously see them having knockdowns and trips since they are using a polearm as their main weapon...and polearms are very effective at triping. On the other hand I don't see how this is decisive in 2 vs 1 fights since most of the classes have at least 1 stun/knockdown. Almost all melee DPSers have one...and almost all tanks have 1. So I fail to see how a blackguard will be able to beat two 40 rank players (that know what they are doing) even so....

Delolith

Most stuns are broken if take dmg again. So if BG is alone and you stun him your partner is going to break it. While if the BG is good he can stun then target his other opponent. this is all depending on how long they last and what classes fighting.

In all honesty i dont think any rank 40 class will be able to take out 2 other 40s at the same time. BG wont be able to swordmaster, RP, chosen, bright wizard, nothing...

[Delolith]

In all honesty i dont think any rank 40 class will be able to take out 2 other 40s at the same time. BG wont be able to swordmaster, RP, chosen, bright wizard, nothing...

Totally agree with you on this statement. And if you think about it why should he? Especially talking about fairly skilled players on both sides....not some guy that just sat on his chair and decided to play his first MMO (or second :wink: WoW ftl and almost instant kills = possible to take down more than 1 person alone).

Delolith

[ShiroRX]

I have no problem with a class being able to kill multiple opponents at once as long as the deciding factor is skill and not class imbalance. Archetype could favor a certain few opponents...


edit: Its quite funny how you people jump to conclusions about the Black Guard "won't" be able to do, we know almost nothing about them. Only that they wear armor, use a polearm, and are usually pissed off at something.

[Delolith]

I have no problem with a class being able to kill multiple opponents at once as long as the deciding factor is skill and not class imbalance. Archetype could favor a certain few opponents...


edit: Its quite funny how you people jump to conclusions about the Black Guard "won't" be able to do, we know almost nothing about them. Only that they wear armor, use a polearm, and are usually pissed off at something.

You are talking about player skill and no class imbalance. But if I that play class A and my friend that play class B at 90% of their potential...and you play your black guard at 90%...tell me one good reason why you should win. Even 2 melee DPSers against a black guard should win...why? If you manage to kill 2 DPSers at once then it means you can kill one and you will have more than half your health. Is that fair even if you both play the same? Even with the archetype bonus? I highly doubt it. If 3 people play the same potential on their class...however one can beat the other two together...that means the class that win has a balance issue. If you cannot understand my maths please let me know so I can illustrate you in a more detailed manner.

Delolith

P.S the only way i can see this happening is if the BG class is severely outmatched at his archnemesis class (archmage, shadow warrior? ). Like they kill you...and they are still at 80% health.

P.S 2 <check the red part of your text> Ohh believe me you will have a problem if the said class is a swordmaster kicking 2 black guards or witch elves simultaneously. You will have a major one mate...so don't act like it something that won't bother you. It will bother you if you have to face it...not the other way around.

[iCanada]

You are talking about player skill and no class imbalance. But if I that play class A and my friend that play class B at 90% of their potential...and you play your black guard at 90%...tell me one good reason why you should win. Even 2 melee DPSers against a black guard should win...why? If you manage to kill 2 DPSers at once then it means you can kill one and you will have more than half your health. Is that fair even if you both play the same? Even with the archetype bonus? I highly doubt it. If 3 people play the same potential on their class...however one can beat the other two together...that means the class that win has a balance issue. If you cannot understand my maths please let me know so I can illustrate you in a more detailed manner.

Delolith

P.S the only way i can see this happening is if the BG class is severely outmatched at his archnemesis class (archmage, shadow warrior? ). Like they kill you...and they are still at 80% health.

P.S 2 <check the red part of your text> Ohh believe me you will have a problem if the said class is a swordmaster kicking 2 black guards or witch elves simultaneously. You will have a major one mate...so don't act like it something that won't bother you. It will bother you if you have to face it...not the other way around.

That totally isnt what he said...

He said if i am playing my class to 90%, and two other Order guys are playing theirs to 30-45% then yes, he has no problem with that. If you read correctly it says that skill should be the deciding factor.

He doesnt want to wtf-zomg-faceroll-pwn people because of imbalances. He thinks that if he is more skilled he should win.

[ChosenOne]

"Each of the game's archetypes has a basic spectrum of skills that fit into a particular tactical role," Drescher said. Each race's tank, for example, is designed to fit along a particular axis of ability. Strong physical or magical offensive powers would be balanced with equally weak defenses. The Dark Elf Black Guard thus has balanced offensive and defensive physical abilities while being particularly resistant to magic. Each side in the game therefore has classes that fit into every tactical niche (though each individual race doesn't) which not only encourages players of the different races to work together but also makes balancing a bit easier by providing each side with an equivalent selection of tactical play styles."


Pulled from Gamespy. I know it aint much, but its something. Might help you decide in this discussion.

[Gemini]

Extra defense against magic is actually very interesting info to me, since RDPS is supposed to be the tank's weakness. That alone makes me more anxious for solid Black Guard info because I love that sorta thing, same reason I love the idea of the claw arm for the Marauder. And hey, considering the info we have so far, that is a very hefty chunk, even if it only half a sentance.

[Delolith]

Extra defense against magic is actually very interesting info to me, since RDPS is supposed to be the tank's weakness. That alone makes me more anxious for solid Black Guard info because I love that sorta thing, same reason I love the idea of the claw arm for the Marauder. And hey, considering the info we have so far, that is a very hefty chunk, even if it only half a sentance.

On the other hand the RDPS class of the High Elven army is not magic based;)

ICanada...I didn't say that is what he ment...but all my comments had the hypothesis that the senario includes players of good knowledge of game and player skill. That is why I made my last comment. Scroll up and check....I always say...that if the said players are of equal or at least good skill lvl.

Delolith

[iCanada]

On the other hand the RDPS class of the High Elven army is not magic based;)

ICanada...I didn't say that is what he ment...but all my comments had the hypothesis that the senario includes players of good knowledge of game and player skill. That is why I made my last comment. Scroll up and check....I always say...that if the said players are of equal or at least good skill lvl.

Delolith

Well yeah, but then you support what he was saying...

I am not to sure why you would try to argue against it.

[Selendor]

On the other hand the RDPS class of the High Elven army is not magic based;)

Ah, but their healer and tank are. Not to mention that the Shadow Warrior uses physical damage, which is usually largely mitigated by armor rating.

[Delolith]

Well yeah, but then you support what he was saying...

I am not to sure why you would try to argue against it.

The OP is asking though wheter BG will be a good class to take down many opponents..not low quality player as opponents. Every class could possibly down 2 people that are not too brilliant at what they are doing...so it is not a matter if whether the BG will be able to do it. From the title of the thread it gets to me that the OP is asking if the BG will be able to take down 2 people or more simultaneously among same skilled players...in which case I seriously doubt it..and I am sure you can understand too that if that was the case for any other no destruction class....hypothetically speaking the swordmaster... you wouldn't be happy either would you (we are always talking about players of about the same skill and rank 40 characters).

Delolith

[WastedTrojan]

It looks like the Black Guard will have less physical mitigation than other tanks but also have higher magic mitigation. I think Black Guards and Ironbreakers are going to be the happiest tanks early on.

BG because the swordmaster and the archmage use magic which he can mitigate decently and then he still probably gets decent physical mitigation.

IB because he will most likely have the highest physical damage mitigation of the order tanks and the Greenskins have 3 physical damage classes.

[Arcton]

Swordmasters have the option of doing magic damage if they choose to apply an enchantment to their blade. They're not forced into it, and that's the point. They're more than capable of putting out raw physical damage. Also, the White Lion will be physical damage.

Also, Mythic has said that while players can spec offensively or defensively with their tank, it will still be in the tank archetype. Their dps will not rival a pure dps class's, nor should it. Even offensively specced, the tank archetype will still have higher armor and less damage than a dps class, and still be fully capable of performing in its role.

[Delolith]

It looks like the Black Guard will have less physical mitigation than other tanks but also have higher magic mitigation. I think Black Guards and Ironbreakers are going to be the happiest tanks early on.

BG because the swordmaster and the archmage use magic which he can mitigate decently and then he still probably gets decent physical mitigation.

IB because he will most likely have the highest physical damage mitigation of the order tanks and the Greenskins have 3 physical damage classes.

Actually I don't very much agree with that statement. Weaponskill according to our already known info increases your chance to parry and also it has an armour penetration factor meaning your attacks ignore a lot of your enemies physical armour. Swordmasters can choose between magical and physical damage according to the video we saw. And from what we also saw they said that physical damage is higher and you use it when you want to chew faster through a caster for example. Now, if you consider that Weaponskill is the most iconic stat for the Swordmasters I would hypothesize that it will be their main stats as far as what their items gives as bonus...totally theoretically though;) That means that BG will have to deal with 3 physical classes been the Swordmaster, Shadow Warrior and White Lion (if that is the melee DPS class) and 1 magical which is the Archmage...and it is the support class, and one of these can actually ignore a large portion of his already lower physical armour too. I would certainly not consider them the happiest tanks...especially early on as you said. Imo if I was a Black Guard I would reconsider my front and would change to the Empire front where they have at least 2 casters.

Delolith

[Gemini]

I'm gonna disagree with both of you and say the fronts are going to be so mixed even from day one because of friends, guilds, and people just wanting to play other fronts that it really won't matter a whole lot.

[Delolith]

I'm gonna disagree with both of you and say the fronts are going to be so mixed even from day one because of friends, guilds, and people just wanting to play other fronts that it really won't matter a whole lot.

While I agree with this statement..my comment was made with the assumption of pure elven classes. I do'n't think that you will disagree on this basis.

Delolith

[Gemini]

Heh, sure, I can agree on that basis on itself. What I'd like to know is how much this magic resistance for the BG helps, if it would still be worth it or not for the SM to use his blade enchantments.

[Delolith]

Heh, sure, I can agree on that basis on itself. What I'd like to know is how much this magic resistance for the BG helps, if it would still be worth it or not for the SM to use his blade enchantments.

Unfortunatelly I cannot make any speculations on that for obvious reasons;)

Delolith

[Ceyl]

Well, just wanted to add my thoughts...

If we pair the tanks after their strenths and weaknesses (not mechanic), I believe we would get:

BG/SM
Chosen/KotBL
BO/IB (hehe, these are funny names in danish)

This is how I see the tanks played out relative to each other (I only bother with writing the destruction names).

Black Guard:
Strengths: Good (maybe best) at duelling, good tank against magic based opponents, good off-tank.
Weaknesses: Weak against high dps pressure (as often in a big fight).
Why: Being an elf without a shield (just like SM) does not make him the toughest of tanks. Greatweapon has relatively high damage output. Good defense against both magical and physical attacks and and the same time having good offensive abilities makes him good at duelling.

Chosen:
Strengths: No obvious weaknesses (yes thats a strength), AoE buffs and debuffs makes him (very) good at large scale battles.
Weaknesses: No obvious strenghts (same reasoning), AoE buff/debuff has less effect when duelling.
Why: His special mechanic, the auras, are best when they can affect many people. I dont see him being as offensive as the BG or as tough as the BO.

Black Orc:
Strength: Tough, can take lots of damage. Has many CC abilities, so good at "controlling" several people at once.
Weaknesses: Little magic protection, especially against ranged magic attacks.
Why: The black orc is big and tough and seem to have good armor. From what we have seen of the skills, there seem to be many CC abilities.

Now this is the basic template, without considering masteries, which can "make up" for weaknesses or "enhance" strenghts.
In short. BG good in small fights. Chosen good in big fights. BO good in medium fights.

I think its too hard to say anything about a 1v2/1v3 fight because its too dependent on the situation, though in generel I think BG will do very well in 1v1. And any class will be at a disadvantage when outnumbered.

[Borrus]

For example, I played a Arcane Power/Fire mage in WoW, because the quickcast/arcane power/pyroblast allowed for me to drop one enemy extremely fast, then have a chance against a second in 1v1.

3 min mage scrub

[Delolith]

For example, I played a Arcane Power/Fire mage in WoW, because the quickcast/arcane power/pyroblast allowed for me to drop one enemy extremely fast, then have a chance against a second in 1v1.

3 min mage scrub

The good thing is that such things won't happen in WAR...for several reasons first being the fact as they stated that battles last looooong...and second the fact of low CC...so no sheep arcane power/2shot person/change target/repeat.

Delolith

[Bulwyf]

I have a feeling that the BG is going to play like a two handed tank from Daoc w/o benefit of as much as physical mitiigation but some kind of self buff or passive traits that make them excellent against magic users. I also think that using a 2h weapon would make them the bee's knees against healers as well. The "paper" to their "rock" though could be melee DPS classes that can put out too much melee dmg for their armor to absorb.

[ChosenOne]

I have a feeling that the BG is going to play like a two handed tank from Daoc w/o benefit of as much as physical mitiigation but some kind of self buff or passive traits that make them excellent against magic users. I also think that using a 2h weapon would make them the bee's knees against healers as well. The "paper" to their "rock" though could be melee DPS classes that can put out too much melee dmg for their armor to absorb.

I dont know. They look pretty heavily armored, plus as elves they will have better dodge parry then the other two tanks. So more misses and good heavy armor to mitigate a good percentage of the melee dps's attacks. Thats why melee dps are horrible against tanks. Each attack does less damage and armor mitigates a set amount of damage. Thats why you use big hits against heavy armored foes and not a bunch of little ones.

Thing is, thats alot of hits on the blackguard and each one is going to build up his hatred meter. Thats BAD news for that annoying melee dps guy. Very bad news indeed. Good bye melee dps player.

[Bulwyf]

I dont know. They look pretty heavily armored, plus as elves they will have better dodge parry then the other two tanks. So more misses and good heavy armor to mitigate a good percentage of the melee dps's attacks. Thats why melee dps are horrible against tanks. Each attack does less damage and armor mitigates a set amount of damage. Thats why you use big hits against heavy armored foes and not a bunch of little ones.

Thing is, thats alot of hits on the blackguard and each one is going to build up his hatred meter. Thats BAD news for that annoying melee dps guy. Very bad news indeed. Good bye melee dps player.

Using Daoc as an example, I can take my savage (melee dps) against any heavy tank and its about 50/50 who wins depending on RR/template etc. If the BG are some kind of "anti-caster" heavy tank then there has to be one class they are weak against otherwise they will be OPed.

[ChosenOne]

Using Daoc as an example, I can take my savage (melee dps) against any heavy tank and its about 50/50 who wins depending on RR/template etc. If the BG are some kind of "anti-caster" heavy tank then there has to be one class they are weak against otherwise they will be OPed.


Yeah, but I have watched vids about warhammer where the melee dps player was silly and ran up to a tank to take it on. The damage done was laughable at best.

Granted I cannot state my opinion as a matter of fact, but what facts do we have about the blackguard anyways?

Maybe I am right, maybe I am wrong.

[Jinsei]

Using Daoc as an example, I can take my savage (melee dps) against any heavy tank and its about 50/50 who wins depending on RR/template etc. If the BG are some kind of "anti-caster" heavy tank then there has to be one class they are weak against otherwise they will be OPed.
Yeah, but considering they need to get hit to become stronger, it seems counterproductive to make them the weakest defensively...Though that WOULD be more incentive to actually hit him first.
Balancing BGs to be anti-magic tanks with Hatred is gonna be tough work it seems...

[Xxpect]

Does anyone know if the amount of hatred gained is based on the number of times the BG is hit, or if it is based on how much damage he takes? If it is based on how much damage he takes, then being weaker to melee than other tanks could possibly be an advantage, depending on how dangerous a BG gets when he has plenty of hatred. Pairing a decent healer with a BG could make for some interesting game play.

[Gemini]

We don't know anything about Hatred, we don't even know if Hatred is still their mechanic.

[ChosenOne]

We don't know anything about Hatred, we don't even know if Hatred is still their mechanic.

Uh, they did say something about him and his boiling rage or whatnot. Sounded very rage/hatred like. I think it is still pretty much the same.

Everyone was worried about it but there are other classes we are not seeing in these vids.

The Chaos Magus
The Empire KotBS
The High Elf White Lion (yet to be announced)
Dwarven classes
Greenskin classes
then finally the dark elf blackguard.


Its not the only one to have been held back from us until further notice. Dont really know why but the fact that its one of each except for the dwarven and greenskin makes me less likely to think there is something wrong with the blackguard and its more likely to just be the fact they want to hold back one of each for other reasons.

[Oddwin]

do we know if the hatred mechanic of the black guard is going to be similar to the ironbreaker's grudge mechanic in that it builds when people in our party get attacked too; or is hatred going to solely grow from the black guard being attacked?

[ChosenOne]

do we know if the hatred mechanic of the black guard is going to be similar to the ironbreaker's grudge mechanic in that it builds when people in our party get attacked too; or is hatred going to solely grow from the black guard being attacked?


From the early descriptions when it was released it was based on itself, not group.

But considering the link to blackguard on the main site is no longer clickable I would say Something is being changed.

[Gemini]

From the early descriptions when it was released it was based on itself, not group.

But considering the link to blackguard on the main site is no longer clickable I would say Something is being changed.

All there was before was one piece of concept art. However, from the completely lack of info, I'll agree with your findings :P