short statement on BG from article

[Spear4Life]

Just reading an article from yesterday and even though it snot much, came across this:

The Dark Elf Black Guard thus has balanced offensive and defensive physical abilities while being particularly resistant to magic.

quoted from someone who seemingly got to play various classes.

heres the article link.

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/warhammer-online/860896p1.html


anti magic-tank anyone? I like it.

[Vahris]

Awesome, I'm glad to hear this. I was afraid for a while that Black Guard might be changed, or even omitted from release.

The recent news sort of aleviates that... Jeff and Paul also mention in their Gamespot interview that "all the classes are in-game now" and Paul used BG as an example to answer a question.

[Spear4Life]

im listening to an interview right now where they just said "all dark elf and high elf classes are done and being polished"

also: "dark elfs are emo"

http://media.pc.gamespy.com/media/748/748723/vids_1.html

in part 2, he talks about why they chose BG as the DE tank around 9:15

[Vahris]

yep, you got it:)

[Jinsei]

With only 2 magic casters on Order, this saddens me a great deal. Unless theres an overabundance of Bright Wizards and Archmages....

[Gemini]

With only 2 magic casters on Order, this saddens me a great deal. Unless theres an overabundance of Bright Wizards and Archmages....

Rune Priests and Warrior Priests use magic too, plus we know careers like the Engineer can do magic-type damages (corporeal, elemental, ect).

[Beldayne]

perhaps this is in partial responce to the shield wall reaction tactics of "nuke, nuke, nuke".

you use BG to shield wall mages and BO to shield wall ranged melee?

[ShiroRX]

I might be reading too far into this too early but....

The weakness of tank classes are ranged dps right? The majority of ranged dps in the game are magic users...

Black Guards specialize in mitigating magic damage on top of archetype advantages over melee dps and neutrality I guess vs. other tanks...

Black Guard, the best tank? :D

[Spear4Life]

by that logic it would be the most versatile tank, not neccessarily the best.

[Ravanos]

I'll take reflect next spell plzkthx!

[Delolith]

I might be reading too far into this too early but....

The weakness of tank classes are ranged dps right? The majority of ranged dps in the game are magic users...

Black Guards specialize in mitigating magic damage on top of archetype advantages over melee dps and neutrality I guess vs. other tanks...

Black Guard, the best tank? :D

I think what they mean by that phrase is that if a tank has a 80% potential of defense against physical and 40% potential against magic...making them good against melee DPSers and in disadvantage against magic users then Blackguard will be like 60% defense against physical and 60% against magic...pretty much making them good now against casters...but a bit less resilient against melee DPSers. If they are just pure 80% to defense to both physical and magical expect a big decrease in their DPS potential, making them the most defenssive of all tanks and the least offenssive even with a 2h halberd. In case they spec for dmg expect to loose either the magic or physical defense bonus. All that from balance perspective ;) In the case my first senario is correct I would tremble comming close to the HE melee DPSer;)

Delolith

[ShiroRX]

I think what they mean by that phrase is that if a tank has a 80% potential of defense against physical and 40% potential against magic...making them good against melee DPSers and in disadvantage against magic users then Blackguard will be like 60% defense against physical and 60% against magic...pretty much making them good now against casters...but a bit less resilient against melee DPSers. If they are just pure 80% to defense to both physical and magical expect a big decrease in their DPS potential, making them the most defenssive of all tanks and the least offenssive even with a 2h halberd. In case they spec for dmg expect to loose either the magic or physical defense bonus. All that from balance perspective ;) In the case my first senario is correct I would tremble comming close to the HE melee DPSer;)

Delolith

Its probably a bit more complicated for melee dps because tanks do have an archetype advantage.

[Delolith]

Yea you are right on that...but I am talking with general figures...I guess you get what I am trying to say.

Delolith

[Mutters]

I'm holding out hope on the "ground control" tank mechanic in that he's a tank that has mobility enough to break through melee, has the magic defense enough to really mess up some casters, and has the halberd with a slightly longer range than melee to reach over people and attack the casters. :D

Mutters

[Delolith]

I'm holding out hope on the "ground control" tank mechanic in that he's a tank that has mobility enough to break through melee, has the magic defense enough to really mess up some casters, and has the halberd with a slightly longer range than melee to reach over people and attack the casters. :D

Mutters

What you are suggesting is kinda off. I will explain why. Let's say all classes have 3 stats... physical mitigation, magical mitigation and offense. Let's say they all start with these at average level. Now if you add the archetype template on them you can affect one stat by going up and 1 down. Meaning a tank will have low magical resistance, high physical resistance and average offense. Now, we know that the Black guard will have magical and physical resistance. Meaning they will either have high physical resistance, average magic resistance and low offense or average physical resistance, average magic resistance average offense or high magical resistance, high physical resistance and very low offense. Now if he wants to beak the lines and start pounding on the caster I guess he will need some strong survivability to go all those people to reach the ranged DPSers....that will leave him with poor offensive abilities meaning that even if he gets there...there is not much he could do unless he could at least do some stuns/knockdowns. Other than that I dont see him killing the caster before he is annihilated. If he has at least average offense in order to take down the caster then I don't see him surviving the passing through all those melee characters to reach the caster unless he has a barage of healers focusing on him and none else.

And all that because none is a squishy in WAR...meaning you not gonna 2 shot someone...even if he is a caster...the battle will last long. Unless you have someone with you...you won't kill the caster this easy...especially with poor damage if you are resistant to both physical and magical aspects.

Delolith

[Kalledon]

Rune Priests and Warrior Priests use magic too, plus we know careers like the Engineer can do magic-type damages (corporeal, elemental, ect).

I was under the impression Witch Hunters would also have some sort of magic ability, though probably limited and more on the Sigmar inspired side.

[Zanbaur]

...then Blackguard will be like 60% defense against physical and 60% against magic...

That's 120%. Sounds about right to me! :D


I'm still expecting to mirror the Swordmaster somewhat. We could have an ability that blocks incoming spells like they have to block incoming arrows.

[Spear4Life]

That's 120%. Sounds about right to me! :D


I'm still expecting to mirror the Swordmaster somewhat. We could have an ability that blocks incoming spells like they have to block incoming arrows.

i think what he meant by 60% was 60% mitigation of that type of damage, not 60% of the BG's overall effectiveness.

[Delolith]

i think what he meant by 60% was 60% mitigation of that type of damage, not 60% of the BG's overall effectiveness.

Indeed...and I said it in rough theoretical numbers....just wanted to make a point nothing more. 80% and 40% for another tank...60% and 60% for Black guard physical and magical resistance respectivelly. If their defense gets higher than that...then the downfall will be to their DPS compared to the other tanks. That means it gives them a slight disadvantage to melee DPSers compared to the other tanks and an advantage over magic users. Making them less focused and more versatile due to their defense with appropriate advantages and disadvantages.

Delolith

[Mutters]

Delolith, if you read my synapsis on ground control, it lays out how he would be able to break lines through sweeping attacks, trips, pushbacks, and line breaking attacks. These probably wouldn't do much damage, but they would control movement of the enemy, making the Black Guard a unique tank in that he can use his halberd to put the enemy at a disadvantage through positioning. He could be weak to physical ranged, being as he has a higher magical mitigation and his ground control tactics act as a partial mitigation to melee.

[Delolith]

Delolith, if you read my synapsis on ground control, it lays out how he would be able to break lines through sweeping attacks, trips, pushbacks, and line breaking attacks. These probably wouldn't do much damage, but they would control movement of the enemy, making the Black Guard a unique tank in that he can use his halberd to put the enemy at a disadvantage through positioning. He could be weak to physical ranged, being as he has a higher magical mitigation and his ground control tactics act as a partial mitigation to melee.

I don't see how he could be weak to physical ranged and not to physical melee even with the ground control you are proposing...even if that is AoE. He cannot chain stun/knockback everyone for long time. Warhammer doesn't have a lot of CC that is a well known stated fact;)

Delolith

[Gemini]

I was under the impression Witch Hunters would also have some sort of magic ability, though probably limited and more on the Sigmar inspired side.

It is very possible. In reality, probably most if not all classes will have a skill or two that will do one of the four damage types covered by resistances, but the Engineer I think has a lot more than normal physical damage dealing classes.

[Mutters]

What ground control is about is not CC, specifically. Its about movement and position control. Basically, its more like an AoE or sweeping attack that disrupts shield lines and group geometry say there's 8 people in a rectangle, 4 in the front and 4 in the back, the front 4 are tanks, the back 4 are healers. The Black Guard would be able to use a Jab and Sweep halberd attack to "push" the middle two tanks sideways and then strike straight at the middle healers. Or hold a bottle neck by pushing melee away with a slight range advantage. In compensation for his powerful melee mitigation, the downside is that he would have to be weak to some form or ranged, b/c that's the flipside of game balance.

[Delolith]

What ground control is about is not CC, specifically. Its about movement and position control. Basically, its more like an AoE or sweeping attack that disrupts shield lines and group geometry say there's 8 people in a rectangle, 4 in the front and 4 in the back, the front 4 are tanks, the back 4 are healers. The Black Guard would be able to use a Jab and Sweep halberd attack to "push" the middle two tanks sideways and then strike straight at the middle healers. Or hold a bottle neck by pushing melee away with a slight range advantage. In compensation for his powerful melee mitigation, the downside is that he would have to be weak to some form or ranged, b/c that's the flipside of game balance.

Since they said that black guards will have good physical and magical mitigation....that applies as it seems to both ranged physical and magic...and melee physical and magic... their balance downfall I see them having is mediocre damage that might get up to almost acceptable levels with hatred. How can smeone that has good defense against physical and magical attacks can be weak to some form of ranged? For example Shadow warrior... shooting arrows (physical dmg or maybe not only) check....Bright wizards shooting fireballs (magical dmg) check. So where is exactly their weak spot from ranged? It is either gonna be some seriously reduced dps....or a median between the physical and magical defense of other tanks...meaning less physical defense...and higher magical defense....all in comparison of course. All these speculations are done with main aspect the balance between at least the tanks....not including any other class.

Delolith

[Grimald]

Well it could be that Black Guard are average in all areas, Good in all areas but master of none. Where as the others could have really good magical defense (chosen?) and weaker defense vs physical, while Black Orcs could be really good at physical mitigation but weaker against magic and the Black Guard is just in the middle of these, its a good all rounder but not a specific tank for the ocassion. Just like a good off tank is usually.

If that makes sense.

[Delolith]

Well it could be that Black Guard are average in all areas, Good in all areas but master of none. Where as the others could have really good magical defense (chosen?) and weaker defense vs physical, while Black Orcs could be really good at physical mitigation but weaker against magic and the Black Guard is just in the middle of these, its a good all rounder but not a specific tank for the ocassion. Just like a good off tank is usually.

If that makes sense.

It does and that's exactly what I said;)

Delolith

[Foofmonger]

Anti-magic may mean that they aren't as physically resistant as some other tank classes.

In my mind at least, thats how you would balance it. :grin: Not just making them "average" in all areas (then they wouldn't be anti-magic, they would just be average).

[Mutters]

I'm really hoping that WAR breaks some molds with archetypes and roles. Having a tank that isn't just your normal X% physicial, X% magical mitigation, dodge, block, parry tank would allow for more creative means by which scripted raids are written and would add some elements of randomness and skill into RvR. In the same way that a WoW pally, warrior, and druid all have different tanking styles and methods, I think that WAR could definitely pioneer some new methods of tanking that are more than just a "gimmick" slapped on a plate armored, sword and board tank.

[Shalaa]

Of course anti magic could include better resistance to taunts, stuns, debuffs etc etc.

[Delolith]

Of course anti magic could include better resistance to taunts, stuns, debuffs etc etc.

Antimagic would certainly mean resistance to debuffs..but for stuns I am sure it will have to do with what kind of source produces the effect. If a spell produces the stun then if you disrupt the spell then you don't get stunned. If you get hit by a big maul on the head I don't think that magic resistance will have to do anything with it...probably a parry/block would do better on that one. Though I doubt taunt will be resistable.

Delolith

[Shalaa]

If you have ever been in huge rvr fights you would realise magic resistance can be more beneficial than armour especially when you get overlapping aoe's from mages and also swordmasters get enchants for weapon attacks that ignore your armour and who's to say you won't get magic weapons later in the game.....

[Delolith]

If you have ever been in huge rvr fights you would realise magic resistance can be more beneficial than armour especially when you get overlapping aoe's from mages and also swordmasters get enchants for weapon attacks that ignore your armour and who's to say you won't get magic weapons later in the game.....

That was addressed to my previous post in some manner? If not yes none said that magic resistance is not beneficial. On the other hand about your comment about magic weapons...a weapon magic or not it still does physical damage from what I know from other games. Now if it has some kind of proc...then that changes things....but still from my previous experiences with procs they are not a very dependant way of doing damage in any case.

Delolith

[Shalaa]

That was addressed to my previous post in some manner? If not yes none said that magic resistance is not beneficial. On the other hand about your comment about magic weapons...a weapon magic or not it still does physical damage from what I know from other games. Now if it has some kind of proc...then that changes things....but still from my previous experiences with procs they are not a very dependant way of doing damage in any case.

Delolith

Yes obviously you still get physical damage, but the magical part ignores armour and is negated by your magic resistance, if you check the swordmaster video it is explained pretty well about them choosing appropriate attacks for different opponents. The example probably aimed at non magical against those who would probably have high resistance such as casters and healers and the magic enchants to gain extra damage against heavily armoured opponents.

My original post was not aimed at you in particular, it was more towards those who seem to think armour is far more important then magic resistance...;)

[sophialvzu]

im listening to an interview right now where they just said "all dark elf and high elf classes are done and being polished"

also: "dark elfs are emo"

http://media.pc.gamespy.com/media/748/748723/vids_1.html

in part 2, he talks about why they chose BG as the DE tank around 9:15

Tut, i'm not an emo :(