The Inevitability of Melee

[BeldarinSkysabre]

I was thinking about what I was expecting when I played this class. Shadow Warriors love their bows. Bow, bow, bow, bow, bow, etc. However, I was thinking that my character will almost have to be partly assault, simply because MMOs always seem to force melee combat for a variety of reasons:

PvP
1.People running up to you. If you're fighting a Witch Elf, she's going to run at you. I think avoiding melee here and kiting will be nigh impossible, especially if multiple melee DPS / tanks are involved in the fight.

2.Taking out the casters. I don't remember where I read this, but I seem to recall that, while Shadow Warriors are ranged DPS, they will probably have to kill casters in melee for interrupting reasons. That is, a Magus vs a Shadow Warrior would go to a Magus if they both stood back and attacked. Obviously there will be exceptions, but it wouldn't be quite fair if Shadow Warriors were better at both range AND melee than the pure caster DPS.

3.Surprise / Ambush, although this may be unlikely. Someone suddenly appears beside you, you'll have to at least stall them to get away before you can start sniping them, in my opinion.

PvE
1.Minimum range. In a small cave, it might be impossible to get far enough away to use the bow. I don't know why every MMO I've seen (except Guild Wars but that was different) has a minimum range on bow attacks, but they seem to like the idea. From a roleplaying standpoint, yes it would be terrible for defense (steel vs. wood), but even I could hit someone less than a foot away with a bow. I'm expecting WAR to have a similar minimum range, and sometimes it's just impossible to get away.

2.Environments. This means a variety of things. One could be simple line of sight issues, such as in the above mentioned cave. The cave goes up then down, and the mob is near the top of the hill. If you back away on either side enough, it's too high or too low. Beside the mob are walls. Melee is the only option sometimes.

3.Encounter-Specific details. This could involve a mob fearing people, and if you're not RIGHT by the mob, it will fear you to your death, or off a cliff, or various other AE issues that people have seen.

General
The problem that I had in EQ2: character optimization required some melee. I _could_ have pure ranged on some fights, but that would have been wasteful - I merely did more damage, even as a ranger, by combining melee and range attacks. That's just how the game was.

There could be other reasons, but I feel I've outlined enough of them. That said, I'm curious to hear the thoughts and feelings of others on this matter. A pure bow Shadow Warrior, while it seems cool, does not seem likely to me with my experience playing MMOs. It seems a little too...idealistic?

[Biocide]

I'm unsure as they have yet to say if they're going to work the mechanics where there's a deadzone for ranged attacks, or if you can make close range ranged attacks but at a penalty. There also may be melee attacks that are so viable that you want to use them if you're nearing the end of your ranged range. Too hard to say, but it will most likely require some fancy footwork in melee to survive, that's just how all ranged dps classes have to be.

[Velryn]

I intend to alter my own playstyle to well take the problem head on. Essentially I intend to start fights in Scouting stance to pick a target work em' down, switch to Skirmish as I strafe to the side and forward, shooting with slows and dots, and finishing by popping assault, going vengeance of nagarythe and doing some brutal assault. And then I take on the other melee targets with a stun I think they have in melee, and run back into shooting range with skirmish.

[Badar_Perc]

Melees reaching us is going to happen, without a doubt, but at least we have snare styles in the Assault line from what it sounds like. But unlike say... a Choppa or Witch Elves where they have to run to us (with some kind of a speed buff it sounds like from interviews), I really dislike that Marauders have their Mortal Kombat style Tentacle "get over here' type attack. But who knows, game isn't out yet so we'll see.

[BeldarinSkysabre]

Velryn, I'd like to be able to boast the same play style. But the purpose of this topic is that I think circumstances will make it impossible.

As far as the tentacle goes, I'm not terribly worried; there will probably be a moderate cooldown time on it, as well as Shadow Warriors not being the top killing priority, so it will probably get used on Arch Mages etc instead.

[Kenyan]

In one of the rvr clips I saw, two Marauders were fighting high elves and at one time a knockback was used and at another a snare was used by a Shadow Warrior. From the description of most of the snares at

http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/HammerWiki

it doesn't seem like they are going to be as overpowered as WoW where a hamstring or crippling poison assures you are kept in melee range for an overly long time unless the effect is dispelled. Also, everyone will have access to a speed boost at the cost of Action Points, and snares don't seem to be as restricted to just a small number of archetypes as in 'that other game'.

The addition of coordination and teamwork with allies who can assist each other and not just wear blinders while going for a kill as their friends are getting beat on will help as well.

[Velryn]

Velryn, I'd like to be able to boast the same play style. But the purpose of this topic is that I think circumstances will make it impossible.

As far as the tentacle goes, I'm not terribly worried; there will probably be a moderate cooldown time on it, as well as Shadow Warriors not being the top killing priority, so it will probably get used on Arch Mages etc instead.


Well it won't be easy and changes will have to be madfe on the fly to meet the instances circumstances. Like for example There may be times when the best way is to stay away in scout, or to try and get away with skirmish, but I know this, Mostly any1 in my range is hurt and they can prepare to be brutally assaulted with the help of vengeance of nagarythe. I intend to save that spell MOST of the time solely for some melee. I like to have fun when I PvP rather then press the same buttons and do the same crappy thing every time.


The point is that, if I get tentacled (HENTAIWTF) or sprinted up to, Im gonna out up some melee resistance with the help of VoN (Which as I stated before I will be saving for assault mode most of the time). I hope that in assault there will be the proper skills to to stun and get outa there and get back into Skirmish kiting.

[Badar_Perc]

Well it won't be easy and changes will have to be madfe on the fly to meet the instances circumstances. Like for example There may be times when the best way is to stay away in scout, or to try and get away with skirmish, but I know this, Mostly any1 in my range is hurt and they can prepare to be brutally assaulted with the help of vengeance of nagarythe. I intend to save that spell MOST of the time solely for some melee. I like to have fun when I PvP rather then press the same buttons and do the same crappy thing every time.


The point is that, if I get tentacled (HENTAIWTF) or sprinted up to, Im gonna out up some melee resistance with the help of VoN (Which as I stated before I will be saving for assault mode most of the time). I hope that in assault there will be the proper skills to to stun and get outa there and get back into Skirmish kiting.

It has been said that there are snares in the Assault line, I am just curious about the anti-fleeing-target abilities that some classes may have.

[Eredhel]

I intend to alter my own playstyle to well take the problem head on. Essentially I intend to start fights in Scouting stance to pick a target work em' down, switch to Skirmish as I strafe to the side and forward, shooting with slows and dots, and finishing by popping assault, going vengeance of nagarythe and doing some brutal assault. And then I take on the other melee targets with a stun I think they have in melee, and run back into shooting range with skirmish.

Didn't I read somewhere that there will be a cooldown on how often you can change stances? Or am I getting confused with something else.

[Badar_Perc]

Didn't I read somewhere that there will be a cooldown on how often you can change stances? Or am I getting confused with something else.

Yeah there is a cooldown to switch to another stance, but from some of the examples I've seen I'd guess maybe 5 seconds?

[Velryn]

Didn't I read somewhere that there will be a cooldown on how often you can change stances? Or am I getting confused with something else.


Yes I assume that those cooldowns will be rather small, because it would be dumb to force A SW to fight one way for a long period of time when there whole purpose as a class is to be versatile. It's like taking away there mechanic almost.

[Elwyndas Ellorian]

One thing I think will be found to be pretty useful is when characters are running away (which they do). With Skirmish, you will be able to fire on them as you pursue them.

[Xander_119]

2.Taking out the casters. I don't remember where I read this, but I seem to recall that, while Shadow Warriors are ranged DPS, they will probably have to kill casters in melee for interrupting reasons. That is, a Magus vs a Shadow Warrior would go to a Magus if they both stood back and attacked. Obviously there will be exceptions, but it wouldn't be quite fair if Shadow Warriors were better at both range AND melee than the pure caster DPS.


what your thinking of is different. What was stated was that the SW has medium ranged silencing attacks, not melee range, so it is wise to burn a SW down from max range otherwise they will destroy you with interupts.

but anyway, this is a game designed around PvP, it would be good to combine range with melee anyways. basicly, keep them at range for as long as you can then do some alright melee damage and snares to get back into shooting range. it is how the class will be so viable, not just 1 tree, a combination of all 3 is how this class will be at its best.

[Reverie]

Most games are not balanced around 1v1 pvp combat, so I'm thinking those times when we do get singled out against a brawler will likely be losing battles. Fiercely fought, yes, but not likely victories. The key, I imagine, is just to avoid those fights like the plague. Don't engage without support, if you can manage it. After all, we're supposed to be one of the more tactically aware classes (at least according my interpretation, which is still prone to vast miscalculation), so we may have to be a bit more savvy about the battles we pick.

Group RvR is a major selling point for this game so, hopefully, and I will admit I am rather naive on these things, the times when we are fighting solo against melee will be kept to a minimum.

[Ceyl]

A shadow warrior must maximize his potential by adapting to the situation. Even if you spec full scout/skirmish you will still have an assault stance and abilities. So you will be stronger in melee than a Sorceress or Shaman. You will probably also be able to take out a MDPS that is below 30% health. Of course you only use your assault snares to get back in range, but since you can`t change stance too often it might not be the best solution. If you want to focus on the ranged aspect, I don`t think there is anything wrong with that, just don`t completly ignore your assault stance.

[Korrupt]

Honestly, for open world rvr. Assult is going to be ,as Feris bueller would say, "Choice"

But for holding down a keep from the inside, I Really see Scout giving you a bang for your buck as you rain arrows down upon your foes, "Felling the weak" and whatnot...

So either way it seems your getting a very strong, flexible build by spending points in theses two masteries. And you won't be left feeling useless very often, if at all :cool: