Weekly WARview : Magus

[Meteorfall]

Welcome readers, to your Weekly WARview ! This week, I'll be looking into the Magus (http://warhammeronline.com/armiesofWAR/chaos/Magus.php), the Chaos Ranged DPS Career.

In the recent 1.3.0b Patch, AoE was brought down, and the Magus, who uses a lot of AoE DoTs was hit with the nerfbat like a beaver on crack. However, the Havoc tree was almost left untouched (aside from Tzeentch's Firestorm (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8498)). I myself play as a Magus on the Ironrock server, and while I know the class could of been spared some of the changes it has gone through, I definitely don't believe this career is useless or completely broken as some people think. Anywho, let's get on the main topics :

Lore & Tacticshttp://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2437&pictureid=10218
Those selected by the Dark Gods to receive the ability to cast spells are held in high esteem by the tribesmen of the north, for they have been singled out and granted vast and terrible powers. All manner of Daemons are counted amongst the numbers of the Raven Host, but the Magus uses the power of only one such creature: the arcane and powerful Disc of Tzeentch. He is forever bound to this living platform, and it is utterly ruled by his will. Channeling his dark energies through his Disc, mortal and Daemon achieve potent synergy, leaving only devastation in their wake.

First off, let's talk about the three Mastery Trees the Magus has to offer:

Havoc : The Havoc tree focuses on long-range, single target damage. As far as spells go, speccing into Havoc can net you Perils of the Warp (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8495), Bolt of Change (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8496) (which is, along with the Engineer's Snipe (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=1538), the longest range spell in the game) and Tzeentch's Firestorm (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8498). As far as popularity goes, Havoc is the least-favored build, as it isn't as strong as other careers' single-target specs. Havoc spells deal Elemental damage, and the favored Daemon for this tree is the Pink Horror.

Changing : Changing is the mid-range AoE AND single-target tree. Seed of Chaos (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8497), Indigo Fire of Change (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8502), and Dissolving Mist (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8494) are abilities available only to the Changing Magus. Changing was for a long time the most usual spec for any Magus player, with AoE DoTs like Glean Magic (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8482) or Pandemonium (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8489), a skilled Changing Magus would always be near the top of the charts for overall damage. However, with the 1.3.0b changes to AoE, a lot of players have re-specced to either Havoc or Daemonology or a hybrid of two builds, due to the large damage reduction on the main Changing spells. Changing abilities deal Spiritual Damage, and the favored Daemon is the Flamer.

Daemonology : Daemonology is the close range AoE tree. Agonizing Torrent (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8500), Aegis of Orange Fire (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8501) and Chaotic Rift (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8499) are specific to Daemonology Magi. A Chaotic Rift build used to be pretty common for among Magi players, pulling enemies in and then unleashing close range attacks for large amounts of damage. But with the recent changes to Chaotic Rift, it has become a lot harder to use this ability effectively, and Daemonology Magi are a lot less seen around the Age of Reckoning. Daemonology abilities deal both Spiritual and Elemental damage, and the favored Daemon is the Blue Horror.

As you can see, a Magus has the choice to spec primarily between different ranges and damage types (Single-target, AoE, or both), so playstyles vary a lot depending on which tree(s) a player chooses.


Personal Opinionhttp://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=2437&pictureid=10219
As I've said before, I actually play a Havoc-specced Magus, and enjoy it quite a bit. Even though I know I won't be able to inflict massive amounts of damage, my Bolt of Change (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8496) can catch running players, and my Perils of the Warp (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8495) is very useful against certain red-haired casters. I do still see a lot of Changing and Daemonology Magi that do tons of damage in scenarios, but personally, I prefer utterly destroying one player than gradually damageing a lot of them.

I do realize that compared to other RDPS classes, Magi are currently underpowered, but I don't consider them bad at all. In fact, I like my Magus just because I don't see as many on the battlefield as I see Sorcs or Bright Wizards. Being able to knockback people with Warping Blast (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8483) is also pretty entertaining, and Daemonic Infestation (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8541) is insanely fun to use.

All in all, I agree with those who think Magi could of been less nerfed in the previous patches, but I greatly disagree with those who think Magi are awful and completely useless.

Next Week : Nordenwatch, everybody's favorite scenario.

-WAAAGH Well, Meteorfall.

[Amneork]

The main reason most people are compaliing about the magus is a combination of factors.

First, I think most players aren't terribly comfortable with the fact that a SH or a Sorc can easily out damage and out kill them and typically do it with less work involved. A magus can end up on top of a scenario scoreboard but you will see it happen with less regularity than you do other RDPS classes.

Secondly the mirror comparisons are never ending on both the official and WHA forums therefore the glaring inadequacies between the two "pet mechanic classes" are even more evident and talked about. Just these inconsistencies make up a large part of the Magus discussions, and truth be told a lot of the complaints in this department are valid.

While we are on the topic of mechanics, the Magus and Engineer class mechanics are a little vague to begin with. Our mechanic is having a pet...a pet with not so great DPS and more use dead (or blowing up) than alive. The Engi at least has some class mechanics centering on doing more damage while theya re withing a certain range of a pet where as our are centered around them doing more damage, ot buffing toughness or having more wounds, all in a tree that was greatly affected by the most recent changes in CC.

I think in the eyes of a lot of players, new and old, the magus seems almost to have been thrown together sort of as an afterthought. There is no denying they have a well-designed look, some awesome looking armor sets and some of the best animations in the game (aside from being knocked down:roll:). Their lack of any real single target damage, and begging the OP's pardon it is still subpar, and the recent nerfs to their AoE output is causing many to frown on the class as an option, protesting with "Blanketnerf" last names or in the case of some veteran Magi, cancelling subs. The issue here wasn't really that the AoE needed to be nerfed for them as much as the Single Target needed a little proper attention, had Mythic split the difference with a hint that Havoc was getting more attention in a later update I think more Magus would be less angry.

All in all it's a complex class, and in order to really succeed with it you need need to know what you are doing. A lot of casual players will be satisfied with it well into the T3 and then skill progression and damage seem to not scale as well into T4. In all honesty, Magus are not too "casual player" friendly but that doesn't stop the class from being productive int he right hands.

[Yerk]

Main problems with Magus:

- no way to get a burst of spike damage

- hard to hide when your standing on top of a big dish with a 'Hit Me First' sign on you

- the short range of many of the most damaging spells, eg Seed of Chaos

- the long lead in time needed to build up damage

- the very weak pets

Main plus for Magus

- If you can persuade a healer to keep you up you can pour out a large amount of damage

- If opponents, for whatever reason, are not running their effects, the AOE damage can cause real problems for the enemy

- in confined spaces, keeps and BO's, where LOS is limited can do insane damage

- in PvE they are fantastic for helping to bring down large numbers of mobs very quickly

[Amneork]

@Yerk I agree on pretty much every point. Due to the short range I typically run CQ. The pets are an afterthought especially with the CC changes and Instability being a gamble where it used to be an effective out. In regards to the spike damage, it's very limited and even then less than spectacular, you have the option of a potential 3K+ channel for 6 seconds with IFOC (if it crits on all three pulses), a fragile casting Bolt of Change that has the potential of a CQ crit for 1500+ (with a 10s cooldown), or Surge of Insanity which needs again a crit, CQ and/or Surging Power to really spike noticeably. Even then the spike damage isn't even comparable to a Sorc, BW, SH or even SW. Suppression damage and selective focus fire is what the average Magus is going to excel at.

[bishamono]

lol at perils of the warp being usefull for killing bws.
it gets 0 bonus damage from intelligence and cant crit, so after mitigation it'll hit for around maybe a 100, so i doubt the bw will notice it between his explosions which do like 7 times the damage.

also bolt of change CAN be good to kill running players, but with a 3 sec cast time an not that high burst damage if the targetted player even only gets a hot during youre cast time, BoC isnt going to kill him

[Helinin Overextended]

Really have to ask..

You sure you played a Magus?

[purplepoison]

DPS class must have burst.

Yes you can aoe everything and get a decent total dmg in the sc score board but only scratch not hurt.

[Helinin Overextended]

DPS class must have burst.

Yes you can aoe everything and get a decent total dmg in the sc score board but only scratch not hurt.

lol.....

I still have the screenie that I out DPS Pylon.....

Sidenote: Doing loads of dmg means nothing at all, when you can;t kill anyone.

O...

Here it is...

http://i32.tinypic.com/24lpthh.jpg

[Meteorfall]

lol at perils of the warp being usefull for killing bws.
it gets 0 bonus damage from intelligence and cant crit, so after mitigation it'll hit for around maybe a 100, so i doubt the bw will notice it between his explosions which do like 7 times the damage.

also bolt of change CAN be good to kill running players, but with a 3 sec cast time an not that high burst damage if the targetted player even only gets a hot during youre cast time, BoC isnt going to kill him

About Perils of the Warp (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8495), I think of it as an extra way to deal damage when taking on casters, especially when I notice an Archmage is throwing HoTs on everyone, I pop PotW while focusing him. You never know, he may be able to run away with -very- low health and die after casting a HoT on himself. However, what I would like to see is the casting time changed to instant, and possibly a short cooldown on it (3-5s, anyone ?).

My Bolt of Change (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8496) deals a good amount of damage, especially when it crits (which it does very often with Chaos Unleashed and the BS Crit staff), and I don't have problems finishing off low health players at all with it. It really all depends on how much health the player has left and if BoC does crit or not.

Really have to ask...

You sure you played a Magus ?

Could you please elaborate, something constructive would be appreciated.

[Roo Stercogburn]

Could you please elaborate, something constructive would be appreciated.

I think that the point is that it is a very superficial description of Magus. That said, its fine if taken as a quick overview of playstyle and I see nothing wrong with it.

However, the class in its current state is extremely weak and you are welcome to disagree but you will find yourself very much in the minority.

Generally speaking, the only people that are happy with the class are those that enjoy large scenario scores and don't understand the difference between random DPS and effective DPS, and those that enjoy a few points in Daemonology for some duelling giggles. In every situation the mediocre damage from a Magus is outperformed by a other classes. In 6v6 set groups with the changes to Chaotic Rift there isn't even a reason now to have one taking up a precious group position unless its a friend that has played one all along. If a team was making a set group from scratch these days, a Magus would not be in the team lineup.

Perils of the Warp is widely, and in my opinion correctly, regarded as a 2 second cast that does not justify the time taken to use it in a combat situation since you can apply more damage with other spells in the same amount of time. I did some testing on this back when it was first nerfed as previously I had enjoyed this spell as a reasonable counter to the ginger menace but post-nerf the points were better spent elsewhere and after testing I dropped it like a hot rock.

I applaud the attempt to inject some positive feelings into those that might be looking at the Magus class but it only comes across as very misinformed, or as I said at the start, very superficial.

[Meteorfall]

I think that the point is that it is a very superficial description of Magus. That said, its fine if taken as a quick overview of playstyle and I see nothing wrong with it.

However, the class in its current state is extremely weak and you are welcome to disagree but you will find yourself very much in the minority.

Generally speaking, the only people that are happy with the class are those that enjoy large scenario scores and don't understand the difference between random DPS and effective DPS, and those that enjoy a few points in Daemonology for some duelling giggles. In every situation the mediocre damage from a Magus is outperformed by a other classes. In 6v6 set groups with the changes to Chaotic Rift there isn't even a reason now to have one taking up a precious group position unless its a friend that has played one all along. If a team was making a set group from scratch these days, a Magus would not be in the team lineup.

Perils of the Warp is widely, and in my opinion correctly, regarded as a 2 second cast that does not justify the time taken to use it in a combat situation since you can apply more damage with other spells in the same amount of time. I did some testing on this back when it was first nerfed as previously I had enjoyed this spell as a reasonable counter to the ginger menace but post-nerf the points were better spent elsewhere and after testing I dropped it like a hot rock.

I applaud the attempt to inject some positive feelings into those that might be looking at the Magus class but it only comes across as very misinformed, or as I said at the start, very superficial.

As I've said before, I completely agree with the fact Magi are currently consistently weaker than other RDPS Careers. My true intent with this Review (which is why this is superficial, I will be reviewing all 24 classes and cannot delve too deep into every little detail about each career), is to try and limit the huge drama of the Magus being an awful class. It is not -that- bad, it may be underpowered at this time, but leaving or un-subbing (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303335) because of the Magus being "unplayable" or otherwise is just too much in my opinion.

I personally have fun with my Magus, I may not be able to dish out as much damage as a Bright Wizard or a Sorc, but I still truly enjoy RvR as a Magus. And I know for a fact that I'm not the only one.

[Helinin Overextended]

I think that the point is that it is a very superficial description of Magus. That said, its fine if taken as a quick overview of playstyle and I see nothing wrong with it.

However, the class in its current state is extremely weak and you are welcome to disagree but you will find yourself very much in the minority.

Generally speaking, the only people that are happy with the class are those that enjoy large scenario scores and don't understand the difference between random DPS and effective DPS, and those that enjoy a few points in Daemonology for some duelling giggles. In every situation the mediocre damage from a Magus is outperformed by a other classes. In 6v6 set groups with the changes to Chaotic Rift there isn't even a reason now to have one taking up a precious group position unless its a friend that has played one all along. If a team was making a set group from scratch these days, a Magus would not be in the team lineup.

Perils of the Warp is widely, and in my opinion correctly, regarded as a 2 second cast that does not justify the time taken to use it in a combat situation since you can apply more damage with other spells in the same amount of time. I did some testing on this back when it was first nerfed as previously I had enjoyed this spell as a reasonable counter to the ginger menace but post-nerf the points were better spent elsewhere and after testing I dropped it like a hot rock.

I applaud the attempt to inject some positive feelings into those that might be looking at the Magus class but it only comes across as very misinformed, or as I said at the start, very superficial.

Thx you very much.

1 more thing. The best spell that actually let a Magus get kills consistently by finishing off ppl with a little health left, not by luck (due to random DoTs) is this humble little spell.

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8479

[Meteorfall]

Thx you very much.

1 more thing. The best spell that actually let a Magus get kills consistently by finishing off ppl with a little health left, not by luck (due to random DoTs) is this humble little spell.

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8479

But when you need the extra range and extra damage, Bolt of Change is your best friend.

[Helinin Overextended]

....................
I personally have fun with my Magus, I may not be able to dish out as much damage as a Bright Wizard or a Sorc, but I still truly enjoy RvR as a Magus. And I know for a fact that I'm not the only one.

Yes, you are not. I'm enjoying myself a lot too in ORvR before I left a mth back.

But if we take a step backwards, we will notice this. We ain;t really that strong of a class at all. Our place can be taken up by other class easily.

The only ability we can bring to the ORvR is sadly Chaotic Rift.

Many of us, and myself refused to be pigeon holed into being a Rift bot.

I tried everything. From getting high crit gears and pumping my Int, to Giving up on Int and went for Toughness, Wounds and using CQ, playing as a melee DPS caster.

Nothing really help at all. Absorb Shields, random Hots, Grp heals, cleanse like abilities, all are a Magus greatest bane, for, we can't eat through them, since our major source of DPS are DoTs.

Thats why so many of us left the game

[Helinin Overextended]

But when you need the extra range and extra damage, Bolt of Change (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8496) is your best friend.

Yes I've done 1.8K crits on a Lv32 SW before. But this spell a few really bad disadvantages.

1) 3 sec cast.

Anything can happen in this 3 seconds. A heal, Absorb Shield, been cast on the target, yourself getting interrupted, etc

2) Doesn't really scale well with Int....

Doombolt dmg without crit...., well, at times it does more then I ever dreamed possible.

Bolt of Change can only be really useful if, it also bypass some resistance of the target.

OR

Lowered to 2seconds.

Then again the Engineer community will be up in arms and setting the nearest magus community on fire.

[Underdark]

ppl cryt o much

a decent magus with decent INT lvls and MP can after cast all of it Dot's take down 60% of its total hp, talking about squishies with low toughness, OFC good defensive specced tanks youll scratch them only and will take forever to go down....

you wont kill healers, and definetly wont kill good tanks, but by all means you arent uneefective, you can still hurt and unleash great amounts of CC...

[MasamuneSSX]

As you may have seen in the Magus forums, you're not the only one who's been looking at this class this week.

Basically I came back from a very long absence from WAR, pretty much due to some of the points mentioned above, which were still an issue back 1.05/6, the last time I was really active.

During the 10 day trial, I thought hard about how the Magus was supposed to be played and made a point of using *all* the tools at my disposal. Quite often in the past, I neglected my demon entirely and focused on spamming DoTs and or FRF/BoC. This was moderately successful but did very much feel like a gimped Sorc, because that's exactly what it was. The theory is quite easy to follow:

Medium damage + utility (Magus ) = High damage (Sorc)

If you lose that utility, whether because the feature is broken or you neglect to use it:

Medium damage < High damage

The point of contention is whether the utility of the Magus, which comes from its 2 group knockdowns, 1 single target knockback, it's 1.5 second cast interrupt (which is a damn stupid idea however you look at it) and the damage from demons, is equal to the Dark Magic mechanic of ther Sorceress. The damage the demons do is "OK" - its not mind bendingly awful but its not exactly stellar either but more often than not it is quite easily healed through. Another thing that is quite easily healed through is the supposed deterrent that prevents Sorceress/Bright Wizards from running around with their mechanic on full charge all the time. No amount of damage is releveant if there happens to be a healer nearby, which in scenarios and keep sieges, is pretty much all the time.

(Off-topic: If you wanted a mechanic to discourage BWs from running with full combustion, change it from static damage to a healing debuff. In short, you want 100% combustion, you get 0% heals. But that's a subject for another thread).

I respectfully disagree about PotW - back in 1.05/1.06, this was the main draw for the Havoc tree and accounted for many hybrid builds. Granted it didn't get a colossal amount from INT *but it made a difference*. At Rank 40, where PotW's damage is a fixed value but Toughness, Wounds and Elemental resist keeps increasing with gear, the spell becomes less and less effective.

Am I one of those people that thinks the Magus is broken beyond repair? No. Do I think that a *lot* of work needs to be done? Yes.

The Magus has gone a very long way from its original design, which I think was to be something like a RDPS with a chaining mechanic similar to the Black Ork. At a very late stage, some 3 or 4 weeks before launch, the mechanic was changed to the form we see today. It even shows in the OP -

All manner of Daemons are counted amongst the numbers of the Raven Host, but the Magus uses the power of only one such creature: the arcane and powerful Disc of Tzeentch

And now we have 3 different demons, only one of which can be active at a time and only one of which is as effective as it should be due to the way the mastery system works.

EDIT:

The reason why PotW isnt effective at Rank 40? Also explains the demons as well - all the damage they do is based on their *fixed* stat values rather than the Magus's stats. I'll have a portion of what the Squig Herders got please.

[Khintos]

I'm sorry but the initial post and follow-ups are just laughable...

As I've said before, I completely agree with the fact Magi are currently consistently weaker than other RDPS Careers. My true intent with this Review (which is why this is superficial, I will be reviewing all 24 classes and cannot delve too deep into every little detail about each career), is to try and limit the huge drama of the Magus being an awful class. It is not -that- bad, it may be underpowered at this time, but leaving or un-subbing (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303335) because of the Magus being "unplayable" or otherwise is just too much in my opinion.

I personally have fun with my Magus, I may not be able to dish out as much damage as a Bright Wizard or a Sorc, but I still truly enjoy RvR as a Magus. And I know for a fact that I'm not the only one.

So, you are either clueless or paid by Mythic?

Seriously, if you state that 'it is not that bad' you have obviously never played any other RDPS class in the game or met any other RDPS class in any form of combat ranging from 1v1 to massive zerg fort raids.

The Magus doesnt come anywhere near the effectiveness of the other classes in this game. It was a one trick pony when Rift still worked, but since Mythic broke that trick were just an old sick pony ready to be put out to pasture.

Perils of the Warp to hurt/shutdown/kill healers?
1 heal and your precious 2 second cast is nullified.

Perils of the Warp as a counter to BWs?
They will take your puny barb with a smile and in return unleash fiery hell on you, while you are silenced/stunned/snared.

Bolt of Change?
Sure, it might be the longest range spell in the game, but in the 3 seconds it takes you to cast it for mediocre damage, the Sorc next to you will have annihilated your target.

Changing was for a long time the most usual spec for any Magus player, with AoE DoTs like Glean Magic (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8482) or Pandemonium (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8489), a skilled Changing Magus would always be near the top of the charts for DPS.When even a WHA editor doesnt know the difference between dps and damage, it is no wonder the article as a whole is a disaster.

dps = damage per second = burst
damage = damage done, regardless of a time frame (ie total for a scenario, damage for 1 spell, etc) = not necessarily burst

Example: Pandemonium (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8489) does 1165 Spirit damage over 15 seconds, which is 77,66 dps. If you take the cast time into consideration the dps is even lower, but the damage stays the same.

The damage column in scenarios does not show dps, it shows the damage done over the whole scenario.
The Magus has very low dps, since its damage is mostly based on long lasting damage over time spells.
Classes like the Sorceress, Bright Wizard, Witch Hunters, etc. have high dps, because they have hard hitting direct damage abilities.

The only time a Magus is high on the scoreboard in scenarios is when the other team has lots of healers. 1 or 2 WPs spamming their group heal is enough to nullify the Magus' dots. Which means the dots keep ticking, leading to high damage numbers on the scoreboard, but your targets are getting healed and will not die.
Netto effect of your Magus: zero, nada, nothing.

On my Choppa i often had half the damage (in lvl 40 blues and some Annihilator btw) of some decked out Magus, but double the kill blows. That means my Choppa is twice as effective in the scenario as the Magus. If you look at BWs/Sorcs it is even worse: they match your Magus' damage and have more killing blows to boot.

Damage done in scenarios is a pointless measure of a class' effectiveness, especially when the damage is based on dots and is combined with very low killing blows.

A Chaotic Rift build used to be pretty common for among Magi players, pulling enemies in and then unleashing close range attacks for large amounts of damage.
And yet another misinformed statement to feed the anti-Rift whine/propaganda machine...

Rift bots pulled in the enemies, correct. But a Magus "unleashing close range attacks for large amounts of damage"??
Hahahaha, seriously, start playing the game before making statements like that...

It would be funny if you were a random troll instead of a WHA editor who is supposed to be somewhat familiar with the game.

The damage that killed you after the Rift did not come from the Magus, but from the 2-3 AE specced Sorcerers/Marauders/Choppas in his group. The only thing the riftbot probably did after rifting is blow up his pet for a 5 second knockdown and then some Daemonic Lash (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8472) and other spells for minor tickles.

Fyi, that 5 second knockdown (Instability (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8481)) takes 2-3 spells to set up (Summon Blue Horror (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8476) - Resummon (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8542) if necessary - Instability (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8481)).
That's 3 seconds of pet summoning, global cooldown, resummon, global cooldown, instability or about 6-7 seconds at it's worst (without tactics) and 115 AP.
How many other AE knockdowns in the game take that much effort?

That also sums up the Magus as a class: you have to put in double the effort to be half as effective as other classes.
And with its recent round of carpet bombing "fixes" Mythic has broken the class so badly that no amount of effort can make you a viable class on the battlefield.

But with the recent changes to Chaotic Rift, it has become a lot harder to use this ability effectively, and Daemonology Magi are a lot less seen around the Age of Reckoning.It has not become a lot harder to use Chaotic Rift (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8499) effectively. It has become impossible!
The spell is broken!
It picks up people and then puts them down where they stood. The radius where it pulls people in (anywhere between 0 and 40ft away) is now so large that it doesnt even snare all pulled people anymore (yeah, there is a secondary effect on Rift too!). In their overenthousiastic nerfbat swinging, Mythic yet again forgot to look at all the factors: the 20ft ae snare means only half of the pulled people get snared, if you're lucky.

The Magus has been at the bottom of the foodchain since release.
We have been suffering the collateral damage of nerfs to other classes (mostly BWs/Sorcs, which are overpowered due to their mechanic, not the individual spells or spell types!) since release.
We have never received any attention in-game or even an acknowledgement from Mythic that they are looking into the class and its myriad of problems.

Isnt that enough reason to make Magus players bitter and angry? Isnt that enough reason to stop paying Mythic?

Your naive optimistic "review" of the class is insulting to the people who have been playing a Magus since beta/release, trying to make it work despite Mythic's "fixes".

The Magus is an aweful class. That's just the harsh truth.
Or hadn't you noticed that everyone is rerolling BWs, WPs, and Knights? Or just quitting WAR alltogether?

[Vanishing]

This is sort of a rushed post, I just wrote what I thought as I thought it really, so I apologise for errors or inconsistencies, hopefully the spirit of what I intend to say will come across.

I think the issue with magus is when you get to the advanced stages of playing one, you start to realise the class is kind of knocked together a bit. It roughly fits the lore but only a few abilities feel really chaos-like and interesting (indigo fire of change for example, though that ability is notably bugged, the demon runs up to things and doesn't attack just aggros it and the demons level is based on the wrong spec tree).

Demonic infestation uses a nurgling presumably because it was the first easy model to apply, I realise that probably isn't important to most people and they don't care that a magus of Tzeentch is summoning a demon of nurgle his arch rival but what it hints at is a slap dash approach to the career and a lack of a unified concept that extends into mechanics.

Much debate is made of the engineers tactics and morales and how they are better than the magus. The magus has a couple of good ones, most people are using standard rdps morales though and basic tactics shared by other careers such as close quaters. The +crit tactic is a good one, it links to the idea of chaos, as does the increased damage from crit, though it is limited to to few abilities to really be a stand out tactic. But the magus tactics and morales generally don't link so well with their specific abilities or DoT focus in the way the engineers do and that is the difference.

The engineer's throwing arm for example became a subject of debate because what happens is most fights in open RvR boil down to a fight over keeps. On or around keep walls the advantage of range is massive causing lots of people to cry out for a similar magus tactic. The angle of high walls and distance to reach up to the top of them or down below made all 65ft and less abilities a waste of time when the fighting was situated around keep walls. I wasn't one of the people who wanted a throwing arm tactic, what I wanted and still want is magus to have something to compensate, something that more clearly defines their role and seperates them from engineers. Perhaps an ability to warp incoming spells, or range effects for a short time, or deflect/reflect incoming ranged attacks via some channeling ability.

I'm told the beta magus was a bit different and only towards the end brought more closely in line with engineer, we still had tactics from this time that boosted abilities we no longer have in game, almost one year on they were still there. This shows the lack of a unified concept in the current magus and hints at why the class is maybe proving less fun for long term players. Too many abilities are repackaged engineer abilities that lack the tactics or morales designed to support them.

If it were up to me I'd see a lot changed. I'd like more random factors put in, abilities might proc other effects or debuffs, or burst on ending, or more demons might be summoned to burst forth into the enemy. Secondary effects or other things to compensate for our lack. Mist could snare if people stood in it from its first to its second damage tier representing the dissolving effect and punishing people for stupidly not moving out of it, if they stand in it for all 3 tiers of its damage, they could take a wounds debuff. The fun morale 4 firewyrm summon made a practical useful ability. Other M4 mastery abilities revised and made into something that fits the class perfectly. The demonic infestation fixed to maybe summon one of those big blue eyes or some bubble of mutated flesh. Maybe an ability causes a victims flesh to mutate and some mutated hand to spring from thier body and attack them. A channeled ability that if the magus is targetted during by spells might open a rift on the casters location and demonic limbs scurry out of it attacking casters/ranged. The magus should first and foremost sow chaos and mutation, flinging raw power from the warp, thats his mandate in the lore.

I remember first getting indigo fire of change and thinking it was the best ability by far, not because it did good single target damage but because it summoned a crazy demon from the dead body of my enemies, it was fun to use and made me laugh. We need more fun abilities and things that make the magus feel like a class that had some genuine creative affection applied to it.

We ride on a disk but it has no benefit, we even still take the same fall damage as everyone else and it sinks in water, it could at least skim along the top of water, even if at slowed pace. Maybe it should have its own auto attack seperate from the magus making him more dangerous up close and compensating for the lack of a ranged auto attack, or maybe on the death and respawn, rather than res of a magus, there is a chance the disk goes mad spinning off into the enemy on its own attacking them. Lots of scope for cool fun things to happen with the magus.

These are just random thoughts of course they would be hard to balance and implement. I just feel that really the magus need something to define him/her players want some injection of creativity and depth to the class that is perhaps lacking. The magus has great looks, the armour and disk look fantastic, magus sentinel armour is still my favourite looking gear by far and the glimpses of the tyrant armour I have seen look equally fantastic but the class itself doesn't gel, it just isn't quite what it could be. The magus role need defining; his/her masteries need tweaking to make them more unique and varied, thier tactics morales more useful and unique, give them that utility and make it fit their weapons (disks/demons), make their tactics, morales and abilities have a greater synergy.

Easier said than done I know, the logistics behind doing these things makes it unlikely but classes were held back at release because they weren't ready, in many ways with its redundant tactics and re-used abilities, demonic infestation model I feel the magus was bordeline on this front. It is easy to just sit back and throw out ideas but I think in many ways I wish Mythic had been a bit bolder in that regard, the magus feels a bit "safe" a bit constrained, it needs a reckless edge.

[Helinin Overextended]

ppl cryt o much

a decent magus with decent INT lvls and MP can after cast all of it Dot's take down 60% of its total hp, talking about squishies with low toughness, OFC good defensive specced tanks youll scratch them only and will take forever to go down....

you wont kill healers, and definetly wont kill good tanks, but by all means you arent uneefective, you can still hurt and unleash great amounts of CC...

Must resist...
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26592&d=1250430687

[MasterM]

Lets return to PotW.

Sorry this ability is a WASTE of everything: cast, AP, hotbar slot, mastery point and even memory it takes up on any computer. Lets assume it hits for 250 (impossible) on your target. Well quite good huh? Of course it's so awesome to waste 2 seconds casting to maybe land 500 damage.

Killing healers? Give me a break. They use a HoT and recieve this impossibly high hit of 250 and get healed for 500 a second later. They use instan heal? It just heals for 1k.


Lets not forget it is 2 second cast, costs loads of AP, lasts for 10 seconds. This ability is arguably the most worthless skill right after "OMG heal your own turret". For last instant DoT does more damage per tick non crit and costs less and any shorter or the same cast time skill will do MORE instantly after it's cast than PotW will do after it's whole course.

So sorry but your oppinion that magus is fine is bullwaffled just because of this.

[Ninjakittie]

I'm sorry but the initial post and follow-ups are just laughable...



So, you are either clueless or paid by Mythic?

Seriously, if you state that 'it is not that bad' you have obviously never played any other RDPS class in the game or met any other RDPS class in any form of combat ranging from 1v1 to massive zerg fort raids.

The Magus doesnt come anywhere near the effectiveness of the other classes in this game. It was a one trick pony when Rift still worked, but since Mythic broke that trick were just an old sick pony ready to be put out to pasture.

Perils of the Warp to hurt/shutdown/kill healers?
1 heal and your precious 2 second cast is nullified.

Perils of the Warp as a counter to BWs?
They will take your puny barb with a smile and in return unleash fiery hell on you, while you are silenced/stunned/snared.

Bolt of Change?
Sure, it might be the longest range spell in the game, but in the 3 seconds it takes you to cast it for mediocre damage, the Sorc next to you will have annihilated your target.

When even a WHA editor doesnt know the difference between dps and damage, it is no wonder the article as a whole is a disaster.

dps = damage per second = burst
damage = damage done, regardless of a time frame (ie total for a scenario, damage for 1 spell, etc) = not necessarily burst

Example: Pandemonium (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8489) does 1165 Spirit damage over 15 seconds, which is 77,66 dps. If you take the cast time into consideration the dps is even lower, but the damage stays the same.

The damage column in scenarios does not show dps, it shows the damage done over the whole scenario.
The Magus has very low dps, since its damage is mostly based on long lasting damage over time spells.
Classes like the Sorceress, Bright Wizard, Witch Hunters, etc. have high dps, because they have hard hitting direct damage abilities.

The only time a Magus is high on the scoreboard in scenarios is when the other team has lots of healers. 1 or 2 WPs spamming their group heal is enough to nullify the Magus' dots. Which means the dots keep ticking, leading to high damage numbers on the scoreboard, but your targets are getting healed and will not die.
Netto effect of your Magus: zero, nada, nothing.

On my Choppa i often had half the damage (in lvl 40 blues and some Annihilator btw) of some decked out Magus, but double the kill blows. That means my Choppa is twice as effective in the scenario as the Magus. If you look at BWs/Sorcs it is even worse: they match your Magus' damage and have more killing blows to boot.

Damage done in scenarios is a pointless measure of a class' effectiveness, especially when the damage is based on dots and is combined with very low killing blows.


And yet another misinformed statement to feed the anti-Rift whine/propaganda machine...

Rift bots pulled in the enemies, correct. But a Magus "unleashing close range attacks for large amounts of damage"??
Hahahaha, seriously, start playing the game before making statements like that...

It would be funny if you were a random troll instead of a WHA editor who is supposed to be somewhat familiar with the game.

The damage that killed you after the Rift did not come from the Magus, but from the 2-3 AE specced Sorcerers/Marauders/Choppas in his group. The only thing the riftbot probably did after rifting is blow up his pet for a 5 second knockdown and then some Daemonic Lash (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8472) and other spells for minor tickles.

Fyi, that 5 second knockdown (Instability (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8481)) takes 2-3 spells to set up (Summon Blue Horror (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8476) - Resummon (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8542) if necessary - Instability (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8481)).
That's 3 seconds of pet summoning, global cooldown, resummon, global cooldown, instability or about 6-7 seconds at it's worst (without tactics) and 115 AP.
How many other AE knockdowns in the game take that much effort?

That also sums up the Magus as a class: you have to put in double the effort to be half as effective as other classes.
And with its recent round of carpet bombing "fixes" Mythic has broken the class so badly that no amount of effort can make you a viable class on the battlefield.

It has not become a lot harder to use Chaotic Rift (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8499) effectively. It has become impossible!
The spell is broken!
It picks up people and then puts them down where they stood. The radius where it pulls people in (anywhere between 0 and 40ft away) is now so large that it doesnt even snare all pulled people anymore (yeah, there is a secondary effect on Rift too!). In their overenthousiastic nerfbat swinging, Mythic yet again forgot to look at all the factors: the 20ft ae snare means only half of the pulled people get snared, if you're lucky.

The Magus has been at the bottom of the foodchain since release.
We have been suffering the collateral damage of nerfs to other classes (mostly BWs/Sorcs, which are overpowered due to their mechanic, not the individual spells or spell types!) since release.
We have never received any attention in-game or even an acknowledgement from Mythic that they are looking into the class and its myriad of problems.

Isnt that enough reason to make Magus players bitter and angry? Isnt that enough reason to stop paying Mythic?

Your naive optimistic "review" of the class is insulting to the people who have been playing a Magus since beta/release, trying to make it work despite Mythic's "fixes".

The Magus is an aweful class. That's just the harsh truth.
Or hadn't you noticed that everyone is rerolling BWs, WPs, and Knights? Or just quitting WAR alltogether?


Nicely said dude lol. It does sound like he is being paid by mythic. trying his hardest to justify mythics extremly slow reaction to fix classes is pretty funny. This is his review of the magus that he so says plays. I cant wait till he does it on a class that he doesn't play.

[Meteorfall]

Khintos - First of all, I would like to clear out that mistake I made for confusing DPS/Damage. Since the age of WoW, I have always been around DPS Charts, and now with WAR, the main "damage meter" is for Overall Damage. I simply made a mistake by using the word DPS (being used to WoW DPS) instead of overall damage and have edited the post accordingly. As a note, I find it interesting as to which you're the only person who pointed this out, and I'm sure most of the people understood what I meant when they read the post.

As for Chaotic Rift. I reckon when a Magus pulled in enemies he'd not only use Daemonic Lash (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8472), but also Agonizing Torrent (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8500), possibly Warpfire (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8485) and sometimes, as you said, Instability (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8481) (and let's not forget Infernal Blast (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8487)). Now if you'd only rely on the 2-3 AE specced Sorcs/Marauders/Choppas in the group, that's your choice.

As a whole, I believe you've taken my post a bit too seriously. It's supposed to introduce and explain the Class, and not actually go into explicit detail. If you aren't able to play effectively with the Magus then that's your own problem, Khintos. Some players are more skilled than others. Your mileage may vary, but with the spec I'm currently rolling with, I'm not doing too bad at all.

[STTMikeTheHalfblind]

I'm sorry but the initial post and follow-ups are just laughable...

So, you are either clueless or paid by Mythic?

And yet another misinformed statement to feed the anti-Rift whine/propaganda machine...

It would be funny if you were a random troll instead of a WHA editor who is supposed to be somewhat familiar with the game.


Isnt that enough reason to make Magus players bitter and angry? Isnt that enough reason to stop paying Mythic?


I understand where you're comin' from cos I notice you play a Magus, but you're being a bit of a about it man. Bitter and angry seem to be an understatement right now.
And of course you'll be able to voice your own opinion on a class review; so will every other player who mains as a reviewed class. Granted I haven't played WAR for awhile but when the Warrior Priest or Disciple of Khaine review comes out I might have my own ideas about it, but hey, nothing's static.
I was running the Book of Grudges Addon and Magi were the class that dealt the most deaths and damage to me, so experiences may vary. In SCs I found them infuriating and harder to kill than enemy Sorcs and Squiggies.
There's a difference between constructive criticism/your own thoughts, and being a complete jerk.

[Meteorfall]

Lets return to PotW.

Sorry this ability is a WASTE of everything: cast, AP, hotbar slot, mastery point and even memory it takes up on any computer. Lets assume it hits for 250 (impossible) on your target. Well quite good huh? Of course it's so awesome to waste 2 seconds casting to maybe land 500 damage.

Killing healers? Give me a break. They use a HoT and recieve this impossibly high hit of 250 and get healed for 500 a second later. They use instan heal? It just heals for 1k.


Lets not forget it is 2 second cast, costs loads of AP, lasts for 10 seconds. This ability is arguably the most worthless skill right after "OMG heal your own turret". For last instant DoT does more damage per tick non crit and costs less and any shorter or the same cast time skill will do MORE instantly after it's cast than PotW will do after it's whole course.

So sorry but your oppinion that magus is fine is bullwaffled just because of this.

You've probably misread my posts, as I've never said the Magus was "fine". I stated that it was consistently weaker than other RDPS and underpowered, but that all the drama about the Magus being unplayable and awful was too much.

We all have different opinions, but what I want to clarify once more, is that my original post is to be considered as a review/overview of the class and not as a statement that points out why the Magus is or is not a useless and completely broken career.

[Amneork]

Khintos makes valid points, and to Meteorfall's credit he is one of the few fully Havoc specced Magi I've played with, his optimism is actually sort of refreshing based on the stupid amounts of tears I see on these and the official forums.. You will never hear me say that the Magus is an awful class, I know better.

We have an RR80 Magus on IR who has no problems leading damage, getting KBs or even running solo in ORvR and being successful in 1v1s. He is an exceptionally skilled player. Now before everyone gets all defensive and starts claiming they are just as skilled let me clarify: I am not suggesting you are a poorly skilled Magus. I am however suggesting that you (and I for that matter) could be better at the class. You do however make a valid point that we need 3 abilities to do what a BW does with one abilitiy and passive effect from a tactic. Yes, a Sorc will burst more in the span of time it takes us to cast a BoC if it crits.

The key is playstyle, Meteor tends to play as a classic ranged caster, this is not a popular method for Magi because that tree is pretty bad (but getting better soon as I understand it). I on the other hand play aggressively and always have. I slot CQ, I make sure I'm in close range and I dump everything possible into people at close range. It would be stupid of me not to considering the damage bonus I get for the tactic slot and the shorter range which will inevitable be forced upon me. I accept it and bring the fight to them.

Sure BoC has a ton of range, sure it can hit for decent amount at that range, but how often are you going to have an opportunity to fire that spell off unmolested at have it hit someone before they break LOS or run out of range? Conversely how often are you going to be facing Order in close combat? Pretty often, playing off that knowledge you can crit for 1500+ in CQ with BOC, just because it has a 150' range doesn't mean you have to hit targets that far away all the time.

Playstyle and adapting to what the enemy is throwing at you is what defines your effectiveness in with a class, if you expect to run the same spell rotation against the same classes everytime and get the same results you are not going to do well. The scenario, team makeups, aggression of the enemy and your own team's level of aggressiveness determine how you are going to the be able to play. Being able to adapt to the situation and knowing what tools you have available to you determine your success or failure.

I too am frustrated with the CC and AoE hits that Magi took, I relaize that we above all other classes probably suffered more due to it. I also realize that despite that fact I'm still living longer, we as a realm/team aren't getting PBAOEd to irrelevance and some former 1-trick pony bomb groups are now standing there with their thumbs up their collectives poopshoots wondering what to do because there is no "I-Win" template like their was for bomb groups in this patch. Previous to the patch I (occasionally) led damage charts and had respectable killing blows, both in and out of premade groups both full Changing, full Daemo or any combination of the three trees. Pulling Rift 300K and getting 15+ KBs in a PuG wasn't unheard of, it wasn't common but I could do it, after the patch I just need to play smarter and play to my strengths.

Just to reiterate, this is not a "L2Play" thread, if you want to think it is that's great. IF IT IS I'm included in the L2Play targets. I know I can improve, I'm aware the other RDPS can barely put any effort or brains into doing as well as many Magi, but I also have seen what we are capable despite the nerfs. Make the best of your class. If it's not fun for you roll something easier or unsub. A positive attitude about playing Magus is nice to see in a sea of tears, making the best out of a "gimp class" is something that happens a lot on Iron Rock and frankly I think that's awesome. If you want easy mode roll and easier class and have fun. Meh.

[Sooda]

I am sorry, Meteorfall, if you thought that my post on the magus forums about the review was "hiding behind in the shadows" or by any means low. All I was after was some magus feedback, as the big banner of goodness on the main page does get overlooked quite often. If your aim was to just introduce the class then I guess all is correct, but by no means do I find the write-up an objective review of the class as a whole.

I fully agree with people who find PoTW a complete joke. I remember when the spell actually made a difference, it used to crit up to 750dmg and that was when I wasn't all that well geared. It seriously made the target think twice whether it is safe or even worth casting that instant heal/dot on someone. It penalized people who were not paying attention, so it was a means of making the playerbase more ... i'd really like to use the word "skilled" here, but... let us just say more aware of their abilites and of the abilities the opposing team can threaten them with.

Furthermore, I fully support the people who find the lackluster mechanic magi are stuck with. Turrets, the damage is not nearly enough to be worth summoning and keeping alive (we do get a tactic with +heal on our heal-pet spell, awesome!) Only time I ever used a pet was when I was riftbotting and insta summon+instability. Only worthy combo of the pet, nothing else.

I am not subscribed at the moment. My main is a magus and I planned that since alpha testing, I was happy with the class for the first 3 tiers. I stuck with the class through many ups and downs until I sincerely felt useless to the group. I played DAoC as an infiltrator, and basically I was useless in groups there aswell. So being useless in 2 Mythic games was the driving force behind stopping my subscription. Will be looking forward to any class-balance fixes which are ahead.

I am still going to follow the magus as a class and hope there will be some major work done with the class in the near future. Who knows, maybe I might even return when the changes are substantial enough.

[Roo Stercogburn]

It is not -that- bad, it may be underpowered at this time, but leaving or un-subbing (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303335) because of the Magus being "unplayable" or otherwise is just too much in my opinion.

This is an interesting comment and could probably be the basis of a rather 'lively' discussion in its own right.

A person experiences the entirety of an MMO like Warhammer through the interactions of the character they play within the game world. If that character lacks in whatever way then the quality of the player's experience is going to be diminished. This means that it is entirely reasonable for a subscriber to make a judgement based on that to continue or quit playing based on the programming quality of the game character they chose to play and how it performs in the game world.

An important factor in playing any class in any game is that the player feels like they are being effective in whatever role they chose to play. Is the experience rewarding or not?

Where it may become a little grey is that there are elements of perception and it isn't always quantifiable.

[jc2008]

The only reason to play a magus now is that you have no other character and no time to level up a new one.

1. Pets - stationary, dont do anything useful. Take a quick look at SH pets and then tell me pets are useful for our class. (SH pets = moveable, permenant til you/they die, bonuses like 100% more armour, 5% reduced critical, etcetc)

2. Dots - these used to be useful when they had the radius. Now you are lucky to hit 2 people with an aoe dot. And the reduced damage on them is a bit lol.

3. Rift - class defining is now utterly useless, pulling ppl who are 40 feet away from you a grand total of what equates to a small hop forward is useless. The secondary effect of rift, to snare the people withing 30 feet of you is moot now as people are not pulled within that radius hardly ever.


can you kill stuff with magus? Sure, cuz you do damage, albeit slowly. If the person you are killing has a healer that isnt majorly AFK you will have a lot of problems without any burst damage to take them down quickly.

Do you get increased damage/benefits from having spells that are 65ft in range, nope. Only benefit you get is being closer to the enemy so they can get up on top of you sooner.

As for group utility, you bring nothing to a group. Your spot in a group is better taken by a heavier damage dealer, or even a healer for better suvivability. We get no group morales, and the group corporal resist buff is a joke with chosen/shaman aura/buff.

But its not the class that frustrates me the most, its the utter silence from Mythic of what will be done if ANYTHING about it. Yes, they have been silent about magus since release, but at least we were still useful for a group with rift until the last patch totally taking away our last group utility.

[Meteorfall]

Sooda - I would like to clear things up a bit more. First of all, I'm sorry for being a little aggressive on the post you made about the WARview (But I'm not a T2 Magus nonetheless ^^). I'd like to point out that I can't talk about every single problem about each class, these reviews are again supposed to present and introduce each career, and Class Balance should not be brought up too much on the original post, which is what I think most readers didn't fully understand.

On another note, I completely agree with what you said about the pet mechanic the Magus currently has. I believe it's not worth summoning your Daemon unless you're using Rift, which is now very random and utterly difficult to use properly. I myself never use a turret unless I'm in PvE (and it's still pretty rare).

As for PotW, this is an issue that can vary between players. I personally think it's useful in certain situations. Other people may think it's useless. Which I can understand.

Roo - Again you may want to note the "in my opinion" at the end of that comment. It all depends on your personal experience, I consider myself somewhat effective in RvR, then again some others may think they aren't effective enough. As I've said before, mileage may vary.

[Prion]

I rolled a Magus when I was bored with the class, knew they had stationary pets, so I figured they would be like Animists. I was pretty disappointed to say the least.

To say this class may be underpowered is a complete understatement. The first glaringly obvious problem is that it's mirrored off a physical range class. A class that gets auto-attacks. I won't say I know what % their auto-attack damage contributes to overall damage, but the lack of it certainly hurts the Magus. Next is the fact that despite being a mirror of the engi, it is often lumped in with the other casters, BW and Sorc, in various changes, usually nerfs, even though they were an underpowered class to begin with.

And having played Havoc primarily, I can say it's garbage for what you have to do. For the cast timers that Havoc is plagued with, it should be one of the highest DPS lines in the game. Not cast for 3s and then watch it hit for 600-700 damage. Or look at how PoTW got gutted. Used to be a great spell, it basically made the line. Now, it's not even worth spending 2s casting it. The line was at least ok because you could still run around, DoT and spam Surging Violet Fire, but once they added Hexes to the purge list, that killed that.

Then, you have to look at the nerfs to Changing and Daemonology, both trees got hit pretty hard with the AoE nerf. Not to the point that they're unplayable, but they are very frustrating. And then there's the rift nerf. I've played around with rift spec, the past week, and it's bad. Sure, it's nice when it works, but most of the time a majority of the people land just at the edge, or outside PBAoE range, rending the rift almost useless.

Now am I a "good" Magus, probably not. R40RR37 maybe, and definitely not the best gear, Annihilator's, but that's about it. But even when I rolled when back in Jan. the class was not that good, and I rolled it out of curiosity to see how it could be so bad. Well now, after a series of nerfs, the class is laughable. To treat it with any level of optimism is just flat out deceptive. The Magus is singlehandedly the worst class in the game(BOs and BGs can at least guard, plus some BGs are just plain ridiculous). The only reason to roll a Magus now would be with the knowledge that since it has hit rock bottom, it could potentially be overbuffed. But at Mythic's pace, that may be well into the next year.

[Slototh]

Not reading the replys to this thread... Speaking from my own personal experience as a Magus.

This review is pathetic.

I've actually deleted my RR80 Magus and have absolutely no regrets over it. That's how bad Magus are.

[Asmodean]

Meteorfall's review

Having played a magus since release I must say I disagree in many ways with Meteorfall. However, I want to make it short. Compared to most other rdps the magus has...

- not the dps needed to pressure healers (especially when dots can be removed)
- not the range of other rdps classes
- not the burst to kill anyone
- not the utility which justifies the lower dps. In fact a BW has more potent utility than a magus
- not a working class mechanic. The daemons do nothing
- no tactics which really improve the class' abilities in a way

Add to that, that you can see that the class was implemented and changed in the last minutes of beta. It is like Frankenstein's monster: a lot of parts which don't really fit together


As for Meteorfall's comment:
"I do still see a lot of Changing and Daemonology Magi that do tons of damage in scenarios"

This misconception really works me up. Let me tell you why and show you an example:
When I play my BW and my squig I go for a target. Let's say the target has 5000 health.

I focus it and get it down with a burst. Maybe there is a heal. So let's assume the target gets healed for 1k.

My total damage on the scenario scoreboard is 6000 then.

Now my magus:
I dot my target up - which takes several gcds. The dots tick slow and I add some direct nukes but in the meantime the healer has much time to react and usually the target has several hots on it. Ok, no chance in hell for a magus to kill that target now. of course the dots tick through and woohoooooo I just did 8k damage or something like that.


Wow, your magus just did more damage than a BW.

Now ask yourself. Who was effective? The BW / squig who killed the target and did less damage or a magus who did more damage and did not kill its target.

Mind you the numbers are made up. However, I wanted to bring a point across with this example.


Summa summarum
Sorry, this review is exactly what the magus class doesn't need. It just helps Mythic to close the eyes about the glaring issues this class has.

[Meteorfall]

Not reading the replys to this thread... Speaking from my own personal experience as a Magus.

This review is pathetic.

I've actually deleted my RR80 Magus and have absolutely no regrets over it. That's how bad Magus are.

Constructive feedback is always appreciated. I mean, deleting a RR80 toon because you feel you can't play well enough with it is your choice. But please try and set up an argument especially if you say you dislike the review.

[Rer]

Constructive feedback is always appreciated. I mean, deleting a RR80 toon because you feel you can't play well enough with it is your choice. But please try and set up an argument especially if you say you dislike the review.

I think its a little pompous to say "you can't play well enough". I think a better answer would be "because you don't feel as viable as a Sorc".

Let's be fully honest here, all cards out on the table, without Rift.... there is no point in bringing a Magus to a group instead of a Sorc.

Period. End of discussion.

Hence why we are all pissed off. Try to understand Khintos and others frustration, they've been through a lot.

[Meteorfall]

I think its a little pompous to say "you can't play well enough". I think a better answer would be "because you don't feel as viable as a Sorc".

Let's be fully honest here, all cards out on the table, without Rift.... there is no point in bringing a Magus to a group instead of a Sorc.

Period. End of discussion.

Hence why we are all pissed off. Try to understand Khintos and others frustration, they've been through a lot.

But saying "your review is pathetic" without any argument whatsoever isn't pompous at all.

I understand the frustration of the Magus players, but I personally believe it's a bit too much. Why would I be having fun with my Magus while other players don't ? That's my true question. There seems to be a lot of mixed opinions, some players think the class is awful and unplayable, some think it's underpowered and needs fixing but still very much enjoy playing their Magus.

[Rer]

Why would I be having fun with my Magus while other players don't ? That's my true question.

Well, I'd say lots of factors play into that. You know, are you running with a group, do you have a designated healer, guard, etc etc.

Back in the day, when I was on a roll, I was on a roll. Waffle got waffled up, big time. However, these days I just don't see that as often. After awhile, the mundane and underpowered begins to overshadow the excitement and playstyle, or at least that's how it was for me.

The Magus could very easily become an outstanding class if a few changes were implemented, and for those ideas I would direct you to the "Top 5 Issues" thread on the Official Forums. Good stuff there.

As an introduction to the class, I suppose its fair. Though personally, in my opinion, I think you're setting unrealistically high expectations. Oh, and to a previous poster about having a l33t RR80 Magus... he's RR80. Of course he is going to rock the house.

[Meteorfall]

Well, I'd say lots of factors play into that. You know, are you running with a group, do you have a designated healer, guard, etc etc.

Back in the day, when I was on a roll, I was on a roll. Waffle got waffled up, big time. However, these days I just don't see that as often. After awhile, the mundane and underpowered begins to overshadow the excitement and playstyle, or at least that's how it was for me.

The Magus could very easily become an outstanding class if a few changes were implemented, and for those ideas I would direct you to the "Top 5 Issues" thread on the Official Forums. Good stuff there.

As an introduction to the class, I suppose its fair. Though personally, in my opinion, I think you're setting unrealistically high expectations. Oh, and to a previous poster about having a l33t RR80 Magus... he's RR80. Of course he is going to rock the house.

Personally, I like soloing in ORvR. I happen to be able to solo BWs often, even a MDPS class if I get my rooting/KB right. In scenarios, I do get decent heals, even when not in a premade, and the damage I do as a Single-target spec is relatively high. I -never- have a pocket healer or a guard though, that spot is designated for the Bomb Sorc in the group :rolleyes:.

[Slototh]

Constructive feedback is always appreciated. I mean, deleting a RR80 toon because you feel you can't play well enough with it is your choice. But please try and set up an argument especially if you say you dislike the review.


Feel i cant play well enough... give me a break. I dislike the magus because it feels like playing with a handicap that nobody else respects.

No instant CC, no disarms, no silence, nothing. No crit modifier, no DPS modifier, No burst damage what so ever, Largest target on the field. Whats the plus side to being a Magus? There's nothing, its just a sorc minus utility and damage.


"look at my big numbers in scenarios"

Give me a break, we all know how to get big numbers tab dotting, a like minded sorc could double whatever a magus could do, but they don't tab dot every healer and pet they can find, they're busy actually killing people.

"I win duels some times!"

So do Black Guards, so do Black orcs, so do Shadow Warriors. Fluke duels or out playing bad players is nothing to gloat about.

[Meteorfall]

Feel i cant play well enough... give me a break. I dislike the magus because it feels like playing with a handicap that nobody else respects.

No instant CC, no disarms, no silence, nothing. No crit modifier, no DPS modifier, No burst damage what so ever, Largest target on the field. Whats the plus side to being a Magus? There's nothing, its just a sorc minus utility and damage.


"look at my big numbers in scenarios"

Give me a break, we all know how to get big numbers tab dotting, a like minded sorc could double whatever a magus could do, but they don't tab dot every healer and pet they can find, they're busy actually killing people.

"I win duels some times!"

So do Black Guards, so do Black orcs, so do Shadow Warriors. Fluke duels or out playing bad players is nothing to gloat about.

While I completely understand the annoyance of not having the utility other careers have, I believe the Magus can still do effectively in RvR if played correctly. What I'm trying to say here is I agree with the fact that the Magus needs a lot of re-working, but the "utterly useless" attitude some players have set out is a bit too much to me.

[MasamuneSSX]

Couple of comments -

1) Movement

Such a simple thing, often overlooked. I think it was Asmodean that first made the joke about the Disc being the Chaos version of a wheelchair. As someone that works with wheelchair bound patients in real life, there's actually more than a grain of truth to this. Wheelchairs are often a pain to steer and get snagged on furniture, after which they often take a few seconds to get unstuck again. Its a very similar issue with the Disc - You and your buddy are running away from the Bright Wizard bomb squad behind you. Your Witch Elf buddy manages to get through the gap in the terrain ahead of you but as soon as you try it, you get sandwiched between two bits of rock and become a toasted sandwich nano-seconds later. Granted, its all very well from a graphical point of view but personally I'd reduce the Disc's clipping range to match that of a standard character. You could always add in some lore-stuff about the Disc being slightly out of phase with its surroundings (which is actually true).

2) Turrets

Back in 1.05, things were bad for the Magus but at least even we had a class to look down upon. That class was the lowly Squig Herder, who suffered a lot of the problems we did. Poor damage, low survivability and ineffective pets. If you look at Squiggys today, you'd think you were playing a different class altogether. What brought about this miraculous change?

One word: Pet scaling

The reason why people feel the Magus is fine at lower ranks is because everyone has pretty much the same gear and therefore is at a similar stat level. At Rank 40, where gear is much more critical and stats vary more greatly, scaling is critical. At present, our demons have fixed stat values and gain no bonuses from our gear or buffs. Now if Mr Bright Wizard's gear adds 30/50/100 TGH and our demon's INT value remains the same, his damage will get progressively weaker and weaker, especially if said Bright Wizard is also stacking Elemental/Spirit resists as well. A decent scaling system wouldn't solve all our problems but it would go a hell of a long way though.

[Helinin Overextended]

................if played correctly................

Tired everything under the sun.

I only have 1 Lv40 Toon thats my Magus. The rest(3) are like sub 20max. Spent all my time min/max/trying out everything, getting specific gears to up dmg or survivability. Trying to squeeze every last bit of dmg and survivability.

End result always the same. A Lackluster.

I played with whatever tools I have. But, seriously, we can't build a table using a kitchen knife and spoon. We need a hammer and saw.

[Lookash]

Hmm..killing with a Magus takes time..and sometimes-like with the AM it's almost impossible
Magus is good at higher renown ranks-like 70+ when you can make a nice build
and with good gear (which also req high rr)
And I wouldn't call my self a "range caster" CQ is the way to go
This review is very good written,nice to read but seems to be based on the spell tooltips...same thing that Mythic does-it all looks good on paper
maybe not all http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4380654&postcount=1
btw- perils is a waste of time&AP-better hit him with your stuff=more dmg)

Making Magus a tank is closer to my style of play
http://forums.warhammeronline.com/warhammer/board/message?board.id=chaos_mg&view=by_date_ascending&message.id=5958#M5958
by just changing some gear,pots I can be either 3,7k armour,900+int 900+tough Magus-tank
or 1050+ 30%crit 380+magicpower sorc-wanna-be

Either way:
You have to put (too) much effort to get good gear and rr to be effective in t4

[jc2008]

While I completely understand the annoyance of not having the utility other careers have, I believe the Magus can still do effectively in RvR if played correctly. What I'm trying to say here is I agree with the fact that the Magus needs a lot of re-working, but the "utterly useless" attitude some players have set out is a bit too much to me.

At this moment in time, magus has no place in groups. Fair enough if you want to go solo on it and have fun that way. But most people dont play mmos to run around solo, and if they do they would most likely pick a better solo class, like SH, that can handle multiple targets at once if necessary.

Now as for all these l2p comments etc, you are asking them to play a gimped class. If someone is skilled and can actually play they would realize right away the severe limitations a magus has. Now they have two choices 1. Play gimped class better than average so people go woo, he must be good to play magus so well.. or 2. Make a class that has decent playability

If you seriously were a good player you would realize how bad off Magus IS compared to other classes. There is a HUGE disparity now. That is not to say you cant play the class well, you can play any class well no matter how crappy it is, but its a waste of space in group.

Its a challenge to play a class that should be gimped in damage. Looking back at DAOC, some of the best players there took classes that were not typically damage classes and ran around solo on them killing people.

And as for your original thread of pulling people close with chaotic rift to unleash large amounts of damage... donno all I can say is ... ... ... You pulling monkeys close to unleash large amounts of damage? or afk people who have no cc? The people killing rift piles are the other aoe classes in your group/wb, not the magus. Sure you could throw some damage on the pile, for the 2seconds you arent knockbacked/disarmed/silenced/diabled/knockeddown. Even at MAX output your dps is probably around 600dps and that takes time to build to get that high, ie applying all your dots which takes time, and your aoe which takes time. Now if your riftpile sticks around in the pile for about 20 seconds or so, then yes you got great dps on them, but then again tehy are also probably all afk.


PS that whole 'WoW Dps' is different from 'WAR dps' is confusing me.. DPS= Damage Per Second, so

[Meteorfall]

At this moment in time, magus has no place in groups. Fair enough if you want to go solo on it and have fun that way. But most people dont play mmos to run around solo, and if they do they would most likely pick a better solo class, like SH, that can handle multiple targets at once if necessary.

Now as for all these l2p comments etc, you are asking them to play a gimped class. If someone is skilled and can actually play they would realize right away the severe limitations a magus has. Now they have two choices 1. Play gimped class better than average so people go woo, he must be good to play magus so well.. or 2. Make a class that has decent playability

If you seriously were a good player you would realize how bad off Magus IS compared to other classes. There is a HUGE disparity now. That is not to say you cant play the class well, you can play any class well no matter how crappy it is, but its a waste of space in group.

Its a challenge to play a class that should be gimped in damage. Looking back at DAOC, some of the best players there took classes that were not typically damage classes and ran around solo on them killing people.

And as for your original thread of pulling people close with chaotic rift to unleash large amounts of damage... donno all I can say is ... ... ... You pulling monkeys close to unleash large amounts of damage? or afk people who have no cc? The people killing rift piles are the other aoe classes in your group/wb, not the magus. Sure you could throw some damage on the pile, for the 2seconds you arent knockbacked/disarmed/silenced/diabled/knockeddown. Even at MAX output your dps is probably around 600dps and that takes time to build to get that high, ie applying all your dots which takes time, and your aoe which takes time. Now if your riftpile sticks around in the pile for about 20 seconds or so, then yes you got great dps on them, but then again tehy are also probably all afk.


PS that whole 'WoW Dps' is different from 'WAR dps' is confusing me.. DPS= Damage Per Second, so

It is true that I'd rather solo than group with other players, which is probably why I view some spells different than other people do. As Amneork said a few posts ago, it's all about the playstyle. Experiences do vary between Soloing and Grouping up.

As for Rift, if I remember correctly, I would see the Magus do a considerable amount of damage to the rifted targets, AoE DoTs were relatively strong before 1.3.0b and they probably did do a large portion of damage to pulled players.

Oh and don't mind that WoW DPS and WAR DPS comparison, Khintos was saying I confused DPS with Overall Damage. My point was I'm used to WoW so when I think Damage Meter I think DPS and not Overall Damage, I just switched the words around. Nothing big.

[Asmodean]

if played correctly

I am sorry, but are we back to using hollow phrases like those as arguments? On the magus board we were, apart from the occasional troll, long past this. Also, playing this game is not exactly rocket science.

Yeah, a magus can do something for his team, in a very specific situation, once in a blue moon. Does it make the class viable - especially compared to other rdps classes? Certainly not.

The little burst a magus has is simply not enough to kill someone if the healer is not afk. So fine, there is no burst. What is left? Pressure damage! How this works after the last patches I saw for myself.

Before the patches it was easy enough that aoe heal spam negated everything a magus did. Then came the wonderous patch where magus dots could also be removed. Splendid! Another dps cut.

Then the last patch came: aoe spells got nerfed across the board. As if magus aoe was ever a problem...

In all honesty, there is no pressure damage left, there is also no noticeable burst which lets an enemy healer sweat, the utility is ridiculous and cumbersome, the class also has no range at all - especially because you are forced to play with close quarter tactic that your spells have a kind of bite.

One of the main reasons is that the magus has no working mechanic. On paper the spells only look mildly weaker than the sorc and bw ones (ok, also not entirely true if you compare indigo fire of change and withering heat - then you wonder why the bw gets another snare which you could need much more).

However, that's on paper. And I think, that's Mythic's problem. Judging stuff by looking at a paper.

[Meteorfall]

I am sorry, but are we back to using hollow phrases like those as arguments? On the magus board we were, apart from the occasional troll, long past this. Also, playing this game is not exactly rocket science.

Yeah, a magus can do something for his team, in a very specific situation, once in a blue moon. Does it make the class viable - especially compared to other rdps classes? Certainly not.

The little burst a magus has is simply not enough to kill someone if the healer is not afk. So fine, there is no burst. What is left? Pressure damage! How this works after the last patches I saw for myself.

Before the patches it was easy enough that aoe heal spam negated everything a magus did. Then came the wonderous patch where magus dots could also be removed. Splendid! Another dps cut.

Then the last patch came: aoe spells got nerfed across the board. As if magus aoe was ever a problem...

In all honesty, there is no pressure damage left, there is also no noticeable burst which lets an enemy healer sweat, the utility is ridiculous and cumbersome, the class also has no range at all - especially because you are forced to play with close quarter tactic that your spells have a kind of bite.

One of the main reasons is that the magus has no working mechanic. On paper the spells only look mildly weaker than the sorc and bw ones (ok, also not entirely true if you compare indigo fire of change and withering heat - then you wonder why the bw gets another snare which you could need much more).

However, that's on paper. And I think, that's Mythic's problem. Judging stuff by looking at a paper.

I agree with everything you said right there. Without being able to do above average pressure damage, the Magus isn't able to do anything better than other RDPS classes, especially since his/her Single Target Tree is not nearly as strong as everyone else's.

And you are completely right about the mechanic being one of the big disapointments of the career. A mechanic is supposed to be the Core part of a Career, and with Daemon Pets being so horrible, it's as if Magi had no mechanic whatsoever. Which is completely pathetic since a Career's mechanic is the main thing that sets it apart from the other classes.

[niikuu]

Nice post, looking forward to next one.
Very much respect to magus players btw.

[MasamuneSSX]

I think what people are scared of is some random Mythic employee reading this initial post and taking it as being representative of the Magus community as a whole. After all most people, unless they have a vested interest in a thread, usually just read the first and last post, possibly back-tracking if there's something really juicy like flamebait or a particularly clear and concise post.

To be honest, a slightly optimistic approach is what the Magus class *needs* right now. At present, whenever someone asks about playing a Magus in the proper section, they are told that the class is ineffective/useless/BW bait and that they shouldn't bother. Exactly how is that helping the Magus community? At the end of the day, Magus players are people that play Maguses, be it as a main or an alt. The more people that play a Magus, the more people have an interest in seeing it improved and the likelihood of Mythic paying it attention increases.

TL;DR - If the Magus players don't give a f*** about encouraging people to play a Magus, why should Mythic?

[Amneork]

I think Mythic is aware of the issues with Magus, I'm not sure they know what to do about it but they are at least keeping up the appearances of caring. James was playing a Magus the other night during the PTS Keep testing and I know there is at least one competent core tester. Andy plays a Marauder, so I'm guessing they are at least putting up the appearance that the concerns are being looked at if not directly addressed.

[Lomir]

As for Chaotic Rift. I reckon when a Magus pulled in enemies he'd not only use Daemonic Lash (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8472), but also Agonizing Torrent (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8500), possibly Warpfire (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8485) and sometimes, as you said, Instability (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8481) (and let's not forget Infernal Blast (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8487)). Now if you'd only rely on the 2-3 AE specced Sorcs/Marauders/Choppas in the group, that's your choice.


Untrue, Agoniz..T. and Warpfire are rubbish, totally shi., aswell as a LOT of other magus abilities always have been underpar.. this -fact- has been proven looong time ago.. When did you start playing a magus? We've been laughing'bout Warpfire since day 1.. It's nothing else than a stealther-radar..
No comment about Agonizing Torrent.. whether you understand what DPS is or completely leave the game.. These two abilities DO NOT DO ENOUGH OR NEARLY RESPECTABLE DMG, WORTH IT... :roll:

The actual problem in the game is the relation in healing < to > magus dmg.. together with a stilll very imbalanced 1,5sec group heal. Still the number of WPs/DoKs in a battle favourizes a win, whether or not they now how to play their class... standing near battle and spamming group heal is the same as before. No difference, all group heals should be at 2,5 seconds cast time.. MYTHIC, you lost..

Mythic did right when nurfing ae-radius/dmg. They did wrong designing every other rdps class able to single hit for 2500 up to 3500+ dmg.. while some "little magi" here are proud of crits near 1500.. They still have no, and I mean NO, experience playing other rdps-classes.

We are medium range casters? Does that implify we do more dmg then other rdps at medium or close range? NO!

Does it mean we have more survivability in any confrontation? Vs tanks? Maybe.., but not on my server where tanks tend to go for toughness rates far above 800+.

Chances vs.other rpds? Absolutely no..! Specially if you 1on1 a BW or any other class that knows our 2 or 3 "tricks".. lool

Let me repeat: You have no chance vs. a BW using silence, disorient, staying away from your pet, or even at 70+ distance. Silence and disorient are by faar much more stronger then our "monk"-like utility stuff they gave us against casters..
On the other side you've too much tanks/mdps able to bypass our 2,xk armour EASILY.. Making us by no means stronger in close combat..

We still have too many candy-like spells hitting for 30 up to 200 dmg. We don't need to spec in abilities, cause baseline dds do the same dmg if not higher.

I'm laughing that much.. STILL some guys think IfoC, Tz.Firestorm or Bolt of change HIT HARD... Your.. aaaaaaaah, pls play other classes to 40 to discuss.., it's nonsense to repeat or post screenshots with 3 up to 4k crits of other classes, while we rely on 50% cast speed increase...
ups, silenced again, so whats better in any PvP-confrontation!? a one time hitting 3-4k crit dd or a fast hitting tennis-ball-launcher on a disc.. what's what a magus is.

Our pets have no utility at all, no slow, no disorient, nothing to make them viable.. just a one-minute-fun button (highly sitiuational). Paired with the 50%cast speed moral 2 it's the one and only way to get down a target fast, errr.. if it's not healed... one time a minute. The rest of the time we subconsciously wait for crits, doing half the dmg other rdps classes can do and still beeing happy.. Cause when you're on the rocks, you can't fall deeper.. Mythic could cut my dmg by another 50%, I won't care as long as I'm that pretty and young..

While SWs crit me for 3900 dmg with fasterin arrow, bw/sorc do around 2k up to 4k dd damage.. Still there're magi pretending this gap in RDPS-classes-dmg is okay.. You've smoked good stuff guys..

The situation is: A lot of Magus (those that didn't quit) are very skilled players that know how to fight and that could play any class. We like the magus and stay with it for several reasons, but we're will always point out the disparities until Mythic gives some kind of a Role. Thats how many religions work, hope..

Lets begin making BoC able to crit for 3k+ dmg. Stop arguing with closed quarters..
It's time for change. It's time for 3 rdps classes beeing on dps-top in one of these categories: DoTs, DDs, AEs, Utility, clearly beeing "strongest" in a discipline, that's what I would like so much..

[PhoenixRed]

I think what people are scared of is some random Mythic employee reading this initial post and taking it as being representative of the Magus community as a whole. After all most people, unless they have a vested interest in a thread, usually just read the first and last post, possibly back-tracking if there's something really juicy like flamebait or a particularly clear and concise post.

That's not how Community Coordinators read threads, from what I've been told. They read every post, as painful as that is.

[Rer]

That's not how Community Coordinators read threads, from what I've been told. They read every post, as painful as that is.

If reading posts is "painful", then maybe Mythic should fix the issues that are causing such "painful" comments. I'm sorry, that was rather bitter of me, please excuse me while I go watch Aion videos to make myself happy again.

[MasamuneSSX]

That's not how Community Coordinators read threads, from what I've been told. They read every post, as painful as that is.

Therapist on standby, sir.....

Still it always pays to look on the bright side. They could be forced to read and moderate the Warcraft forums. There's *real* issues there....Oo

[Randar]

As sub-par as magus are I have to agree with the OP in that they are still a fun class to play. I've come to terms with the fact that I pretty much cannot solo anybody 1v1, even being Havoc spec, but I still enjoy being part of a group effort and, since I'm largely ignored, I can do a lot of damage before the enemy notices and decides to squash me. Finding strategic places to stand/hide are important.

It's rather frustrating that there's pretty much nothing we can do against WH's though. Once they unstealth behind you, you get one chance to use one ability and if it fails or is disrupted you're toast. One or 2 more instant cast spells would be helpful.

[PlanckEpoch]

I rarely ever post, but I felt that maybe I should add in my thoughts, which tie into my overall feelings of the game.

I unsubbed over two months ago, due to the lack of satisfaction I was having with the game. I'm a dedicated Chosen/Knight player, and although I never reached high levels of RR, I was a player learning how to properly use my character in RvR. In both my days as Chosen and Knight, I have always been sought after in groups, and that leads me into my thought. I had always felt useful, because I actually brought something to the fight that benefited my group. Whether that was utilizing my AOE KD or buffing with my Auras/Commands, I actually felt useful and needed in the fight, because I was actively helping out, beneficial. I brought something to the table that was actually meaningful and useful.

I'm sure that due to their problems, a lot of Magi are feeling that they AREN'T bringing anything to the playing field. When one looks at classes and their roles, there is going to be competition. As others have said, with no real utility nor group benefit, what does the Magus bring to the table that the Sorc, or even Squig Herder can't do and better? Bear with me here, but if even you, MeteorFall, admit that the class has problems, and that you don't rank as much damage as say a Sorc, then what should I consider to add you to group?

I played Warhammer since launch because of the game being group-centric. I like working with others as a cohesive team, and to me that was the primary draw of the game. Unlike WoW where I only work together in PvP in a closed arena, working together was the basis of the core RvR gameplay. Because of this, I have to look at classes based upon what they give. Do I pick the Magus who may not burn down a target during the time they are CC'd, or do I pick the Sorc who will probably roll their faces when I knock down/snare/root them? When I am RvRing in WAR, seconds count. With Rez cooldowns as short as they are, and no penalty for dying in RvR, those seconds mean the difference between killing a healer before that healer rezzes a target, or having the healer rez before dying. Perhaps they AREN'T useless like players want to say they are, but I bet many are feeling they are whenever they see the Sorc and Squiggy build a path to victory on the corpses of their enemies, wondering just what worth they have at all.

That is where I believe that this sense of unsubbing and drama stems. Because of all the Magi problems, many players must feel awfully useless, looking at Sorcs and Squigges. When they can't burn a target down as fast as the other two, bring as much CC or even group utility, it is a wonder that Magi are even able to find groups at all. Granted this is a gross exagerration, but you cannot deny that many actually do feel this way. MMO Sub retention is based upon player satisfaction, and if people don't feel satisfied, subs are in jeopardy.

As good as this review would be, stepping in the shoes of a Magus, to me this review only tries to sugar coat and gloss over the truth. To say only the strengths, which become negligible in comparison to other classes in the RDPS role, without touching on problems only makes Magi players bitter and even more jaded. I dread what drama storm will come about when the Marauder review comes in, if it hasn't already(Forgive me, I don't regularly frequent articles like this).

In the end, I understand the intention of this article, but I dare say that now isn't the time for such things. Players of classes that are perceived to be broken don't want to hear about idealistic situations where they can excel, but they want their classes fixed. For some individuals, like some vocal players in this thread, posts like this will only serve to embitter them even more.

There you have it, my two cents.

[stjobe]

There you have it, my two cents.Excellent post, PlanckEpoch, excellent. Sums up the problems with underpowered classes perfectly.

[MasamuneSSX]

Agreed - pretty much hits the nail on the head for me as well.

[MasterM]

Since my last post was apparently a bad bad flame I'll rephrase myself in more serious tone laced with a bit of bitterness.



I think what people are scared of is some random Mythic employee reading this initial post and taking it as being representative of the Magus community as a whole. After all most people, unless they have a vested interest in a thread, usually just read the first and last post, possibly back-tracking if there's something really juicy like flamebait or a particularly clear and concise post.

To be honest, a slightly optimistic approach is what the Magus class *needs* right now. At present, whenever someone asks about playing a Magus in the proper section, they are told that the class is ineffective/useless/BW bait and that they shouldn't bother. Exactly how is that helping the Magus community? At the end of the day, Magus players are people that play Maguses, be it as a main or an alt. The more people that play a Magus, the more people have an interest in seeing it improved and the likelihood of Mythic paying it attention increases.

TL;DR - If the Magus players don't give a f*** about encouraging people to play a Magus, why should Mythic?
I cannot agree that magus needs optimistic approach because pointing out flaws and being "negative" about class viability didn't work.

Imagine you have a product (WAR is Mythics product) and you claim you want it as perfect as possible even though you know perfect is impossible but you still try. You constantly have complaints about some part of The Product but you feel like there are more pressing issues and you postpone fixing this specific thing in your product as it's not critical. Then someday when you have fixed those things you thought were big you turn to those less critical.

Now we have the issue I have problem with here. If we stop complaining or even make it look like it's not as bad as it really is, Mythic might lower the priority of fixes/revamp for the class as it's better now than it was before even though nothing has changed and it's not better.

TL;DR - If no one cares to play magus then Mythic should try their best to make people want to play it.

[MasamuneSSX]

Yes, I do understand what you're saying and I agree.

The point I was trying to make was that at the rate we're going, we're rapidly turning into the emo-goths of Warhammer. Mythic hates us, everything about the Magus is dark, misery and suffering, I'm re-rolling Aion the very nano-second it launches, etc. I get it, I really do get it that the Magus class needs a ton of work but sweeping statements and self-indulgent rants will not actually helps us. What *will* help us is people playing the class, learning what the flaws are and writing those flaws down in concise, accurate posts. The other thing that will help us immeasurably is having a lively and active community. Have you ever tried talking to a goth? More often than not, any conversation will start with a laser glare followed by a barrage of abuse and finally being pointedly ignored.

Put yourselves in Mythic's boots - would you rather talk to a constructive and helpful group of players with realistic expectations, or would you talk to a bunch of whiny crybabies?

I fully expect to flamed to hell and back for this - my final word on this is ask yourself what you can do to make the Magus community a better place.

[shaitarkh]

snip

Put yourselves in Mythic's boots - would you rather talk to a constructive and helpful group of players with realistic expectations, or would you talk to a bunch of whiny crybabies?

snip


For almost a year the Magus community has written loads of constructive feedback. It didn't change anything.

[akalukz]

I fully expect to flamed to hell and back for this - my final word on this is ask yourself what you can do to make the Magus community a better place.

Not a flame, I think you just aren't an old time magus. And I Don't mean that in a negative way. Mythic... if they really cared could go back and look at the threads that were created by thier Community team. (Top 4(5)) magus issues. nothing has changed since then, expect that it is now worse than it was.

The magus forums hear on WHA and even to a lesser degree the WHO magus forums are full of very well thought out and constructive feedback regarding the magus (From Release until around Apr-May). The problem is most magi are past that point of being constructive but are rather bitter now.

[jc2008]

Not a flame, I think you just aren't an old time magus. And I Don't mean that in a negative way. Mythic... if they really cared could go back and look at the threads that were created by thier Community team. (Top 4(5)) magus issues. nothing has changed since then, expect that it is now worse than it was.

The magus forums hear on WHA and even to a lesser degree the WHO magus forums are full of very well thought out and constructive feedback regarding the magus (From Release until around Apr-May). The problem is most magi are past that point of being constructive but are rather bitter now.


HAve to agree, I am usually a 'glass is half full' person. But with the magus, there are simply too many holes now to plug to keep that glass half full, its totally empty.


I think this thread is totally the wrong thing to be posting. The initial post gives an impression that magus are still viable/good/useful. They simply aren't anymore. They were walking a thin line before being useful, and now that line is totally gone, and that needs to be expressed, not threads like this where it might make mythic think that 99% of the magus population is just nuts/crazy/whiney when this 1 guy says its ok.

Would ANYONE seriously recommend to any player new or old, to roll a magus? Even classes that have some problems still can be recommended due to certain class features.

[MasamuneSSX]

Not a flame, I think you just aren't an old time magus. And I Don't mean that in a negative way. Mythic... if they really cared could go back and look at the threads that were created by thier Community team. (Top 4(5)) magus issues. nothing has changed since then, expect that it is now worse than it was.

The magus forums hear on WHA and even to a lesser degree the WHO magus forums are full of very well thought out and constructive feedback regarding the magus (From Release until around Apr-May). The problem is most magi are past that point of being constructive but are rather bitter now.

Heh, I was an old time Magus:

Magus Concerns thread: http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187333

Work on INT co-efficients:
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106166
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185184
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168227
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155137
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306687 - patch 1.3.0b

Tactic suggestions:
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191336

...so yeah, I've been around for a while ;). I really don't how much or if any of this ever got back to Mythic but the only thing I can do is keep trying.

[ganandorf]

With capped int and 215 magic power bolt of change crits a level 40 for 1000 damage. You can get better single target dps from a shaman.

[Celticjim]

There is nothing really left for me to say that currently has not already been iterated.

I understand the intent of the OP comments, as general overview. However, the brilliant post on the previous page is the one that states emphasizing the postives of the class w/out acknowledging its absolute deficiencies is what drives many of us to absolute insanity.

Often I have read our damage is fine, it is every other classes damage that is out of kilter. If that's the case, then our damage is still not fine as the comparisons are not in synch. I also truly believe that several others absolutely enjoy they fact they can thumb down at least one class of player.

Approx 9 mos back we had a rather humourous post describing the extent that people would chase us down in order for some RP. This would include following us way outside the skirmish zone, outside to another part of the map, or through a throng of people in order to get the kill.

Is this due to the fact we were so powerful? I don't think so. Probably more likely easy to see, tics of 80-120 don't really hurt, and the rp for some of the higher ranked Magi is worth the risk.

The class needs help. If seen as RDPS, then needs to be brought into a somewhat linear fashion to the other RDPS classes. Perhaps not as powerful, but a few notches down the graph. If insistent on keeping us as week RDPS, then cut out some of the utility of the other classes, and make the Magus the utility class.

In this scenario, sure, Magus can't kill outright, but we need them for "_______" , or we need them for "_________"

Currently the Magus is one of the most infuriating classes I have ever played in whatever MMO I have played in my history of online gaming. What is even more astounding is I continue maniacally to try to improve myself in this class, all the while cursing at a screen.

[Nevix]

Magus has been my main since WAR was released, and looking back the most problems I had with the magus was when I was leveling through the different tier scenarios. I always told myself I would make it work at level 40 and for the time being just tried to do whatever utility I could for the team.

The class has had its ups and downs, but with every change to the class I have found it relatively easy to readjust to a new useful spec. I was changing before the AE nerf, because DAMN that line was nice and OP. The changing line back then was also the best single target dps for a magus in my opinion, and spells like glean magic had way too much base damage on them than they should have.
Since AE got nerfed I switched to a cross-spec between Havoc and Changing, I have both line's 15% critical tactics with all the abilities leading up to them. This combination gives great single target and decent AE damage when it needs to be called for, along with a combination of strong quick cast-time abilities from 2 trees to get damage out quickly.

I stay on top of the damage and kills for the most part, unless there is a very wise Sorc around or unless our side of the scenario is running as a double premade
Since the majority of magus damage comes from duration effects, when there is a lot of DPS plowing through enemies, the class becomes less and less efficient. It is at this time that I start picking out other targets. Say the destro melee train is pounding on a WP or some DPS, if I know they have it I turn to a new target (say a Runepriest or Archmage) and start pre-dotting and nuking. By the time the train gets to my target it is either dead, or ready to be killed off if a jab or 2.

It seems through skimming this forum that a lot of magi believe that killing a healer is impossible. I totally disagree. It is difficult but it is also totally doable. While a WP is once again a tough one to take out, I believe we totally have the utility at hand to take out a Runepriest or an Archmage, it can just be difficult. The thing that gives me the most problems on taking out healers is the cross-healing they might be receiving from the other healers that are around. DoT them up, givem perils, toss a bolt, by the time they realise that they are under fire and need to heal themselves and not their DPS, you can give them a nice little fatty slob demon knockdown, another quick nuke, when they stand up theyre going to want to heal themselves, give them a nice interrupt from surge of insanity. If your healer isn’t dead you can use a quick nuke and/or IFOC, also by this time your mage bolt should be up to finish him off if you want to go that route.

Magus is definitely the most difficult ranged DPS class to get efficiency out of, but it doesn't mean they can't be efficient.

There is one thing I have always wished magus would have; some kind of compensation for the disc, some kind of bonus for having to be 2 feet taller than everyone else and on top of a glowing beacon as a squishy. Walk on water? 5% runspeed increase? 25% less falling damage? ... just something =P

[akalukz]

Heh, I was an old time Magus:




As I said, I didn't mean the "not an old time magus" as a negative thing. Was just trying to say that we have already provided a metric ton of feedback... all of which is still ignored. I mean 11 months after release and they actually fix a typo and include it in the patch notes...while there are GLARING BUGS that are really affecting the magus.

Example.

In 1.3.0b Rift was changed to position the targets in a more random pattern. This would be fine if that is what it did... what it actually does in 99% of the time it fires the target straight into the area and plops them right back down where they were. They didn't increase the Area of Effect of the secondary portion of the skill that causes a snare... so EVEN if you happen to pull someone in closer then they were when you casted chances are they will still be out of range of the snare and any other AoE affect you may try to use. Such as a knockdown or Daemonic Lash.

IMO the Magus is not a bug ridden class overall, it is more of a broken class... IE it doesn't work even when there are no bugs.

But you continue to have people that say the magus is fine blah blah. Take the New Oracle over on the Official Forums.. and this isn't meant to slander this person. But they continualy post that the magus is fine we all just need to learn to play. Easy to say when you are already sitting at RR80 with Full Warlord/DP gear. I really think the Oracle we would be great at any class he/she plays. They are a great magus, but just imagine what that talent could do on a Sorc or BW.

Great players can make a broken class seem overpowered or even on par. The problem isn't the magus as it is played by great players... the problem the magus played by average players. If you take the "average BW" and the "average Magus" and it is apparent that they are miles apart in effectiveness/usefullness

[Nevix]

Great players can make a broken class seem overpowered or even on par. The problem isn't the magus as it is played by great players... the problem the magus played by average players. If you take the "average BW" and the "average Magus" and it is apparent that they are miles apart in effectiveness/usefullness

Very true.

[Vanishing]

Gear and renown makes a clear difference. People with lower gear/renown than me are soft targets, even if they are quite good I have a decent chance to kill them. People with better gear/renown are tough as old boots, they don't die easily, take much less damage and hit harder/crit more. If you are above average renown and gear you will have an easier time and you don't need to be the best at your class to get the gear, just lucky, in a big guild, on the right server for your faction or put the time in.

The difference between lower rank 40 gear and renown to where I am now with my magus is something like a 13% crit chance, over 100 toughness, soft cap int, +400 damage on some crits, 700 wounds... the list goes on.

Im not suggesting people should'nt be rewarded for dedication, I am just saying what needs to be examined is the average performance.

I also think what needs examining is how classes perform in various situations, big groups, small groups, scens, open RvR, keeps etc. They need to be looked at in terms of more than numbers taken on a flat scale or our individual experiences but in various situations and a wide range of experiences, good and bad.

In the end all we can do is hope that at some point these things get examined and a clearer concept of what the magus is supposed to be emerges. I already posted what I thought would be fun possible changes and for me that is what I want Mythic to do, look at how to make magus more fun and more unified as a class. They just feel a bit cobbled together for me and not a tidy enough concept sometimes, they have good fun elements but it isn't carried through the class as a whole.

[PlanckEpoch]

But you continue to have people that say the magus is fine blah blah. Take the New Oracle over on the Official Forums.. and this isn't meant to slander this person. But they continualy post that the magus is fine we all just need to learn to play. Easy to say when you are already sitting at RR80 with Full Warlord/DP gear. I really think the Oracle we would be great at any class he/she plays. They are a great magus, but just imagine what that talent could do on a Sorc or BW.

Great players can make a broken class seem overpowered or even on par. The problem isn't the magus as it is played by great players... the problem the magus played by average players. If you take the "average BW" and the "average Magus" and it is apparent that they are miles apart in effectiveness/usefullness

And I wholly agree with you. I play fighting games on a semi-competitive level, and if you aren't familiar with it, there is a system of ranking called "tiers," where characters are based upon merit alone, assuming if two equally skilled players are playing Character X and Character Y. Tier rankings are based upon how the characters are programmed in relation to other characters, where S is the top(very best) and F being the lowest(worst) tiers. In one fighting game, I play a character that is largely considered to be D or E tier by the community who plays this game. However, I can fight and beat many B, A, or S tier characters, because I'm skilled.

Does this mean that my character is good? No, it simply means I'm a good player. It also does mean that I have to work extra hard to compete at a level that higher tier characters don't have to. My character is pretty broken, nerfed through successive versions of the game.

And hence I think we need to step back here, and realize that not every Magus is going to be high RR, like the Oracles or what not. To them the class is fine because they excel, but not everyone is there, and it still does not change the fact that the class is broken/gutted/useless or whatever you want to say it is. Player skill =/= Good, balanced class. It is always just the player has the skill and knowledge to work with the difficulties of the class and succeed.

[jc2008]

Btw, I do not believe that every class should be equal. That any class should be able to kill any other class. That every class should be useful in a group etc. But each class should have its own 'thing'

Make a DAOC comparison, stealthers like the infil/sb/ns were NOT welcome in groups. They missed any and all group utility (determination, high burst dps cuz they couldnt open from stealth etc). But if you wanted to run around solo, the stealthers were THE best class to do so on.

Casters from all realms (bar mentalist) had something to bring to a group, be it high damage, disease, pbaoe, cc etc.

The magus is subpar for 1v1. Now they can 1v1, but its more like pulling teeth. The magus has NOTHING to bring to a group (unless you count the corperal resist buff, woot?). For a group if you dont have burst damage you have utility. What group would want a class that has no burst damage + no utility, it just doesnt make any sense to me at all.

In warbands, magus can get along as there are many people there and you can afford to have some useless spots filled. But how many people wanna think of themselves as useless.

Again, i will reiterate, the biggest problem with the magus is mythics lack of care about the class. Ignoring it patch after patch until they finally don't have to do anything to it at all since 2 people will be left playing it.

[t0a5t]

Yes, I do understand what you're saying and I agree.

The point I was trying to make was that at the rate we're going, we're rapidly turning into the emo-goths of Warhammer. Mythic hates us, everything about the Magus is dark, misery and suffering, I'm re-rolling Aion the very nano-second it launches, etc. I get it, I really do get it that the Magus class needs a ton of work but sweeping statements and self-indulgent rants will not actually helps us. What *will* help us is people playing the class, learning what the flaws are and writing those flaws down in concise, accurate posts. The other thing that will help us immeasurably is having a lively and active community. Have you ever tried talking to a goth? More often than not, any conversation will start with a laser glare followed by a barrage of abuse and finally being pointedly ignored.

Put yourselves in Mythic's boots - would you rather talk to a constructive and helpful group of players with realistic expectations, or would you talk to a bunch of whiny crybabies?

I fully expect to flamed to hell and back for this - my final word on this is ask yourself what you can do to make the Magus community a better place.

Heh, not gonna flame ya dude, but we've been through this right?

We'd done the level headed discussions and improvement lists for Mythic.

We'd shown the math and formulae on how a Rifle Engineer was doing 40% more damage than a Havoc Magus.

We'd submitted the test server logs from the templates provided that further verified the HUGE damage disparity between Magi and their mirror (let alone other rdps like BW/Sorc that do even more dps and damage than an Engineer).

All that's left now are sarcastic comments about how many Mythic employees does it takes to destroy an MMO.. or will Aion be urinating on WAR's grave.. or just pointing and laughing at the Mythic employees in the unemployment line.. and then waiting for SW:TOR to crash and burn because Bioware decided to use Mythic's 3 star talent.

[Shakrah]

I play off-on a lvl25rr25 magus. While I am not at lvl40, I find the issue of a magus to have a specific role compared to any other classes.

While Magus can certainly be fun to play for a while, like the OP, I specced havoc, not because it was the "most" efficient, but because I figured that, as a mirror to the engineer, I would have a somewhat slow but devastating spell, or pet, or something that would actually give me a "turret" capacity. Not so.

The havoc path makes you at best a "finisher", or better said a killstealer. You can of course chose to be purely an annoyance, am used to it with my BG, so no issues. The issue is that you are neither very good at that.

The spell range, even on havoc, is inferior to BWs spells, and as far as I see it in any siege, to the engineer as well.

In one word, the main issue I find is that the class lacks unique skills or contribution. By a freak of the game, there was the "rift" capacity, which probably explains partially while some will have reached by then rr80, but now, it is simply lacking a defining function.

Graphically (the disk) and lore wise, this is a unique class, but given just average specs and marginal utility.

[Alekilth]

I like Magus' they're fun to play as, but then again all ranged DPS are fun. :)

[Doctorwar]

I play a level 38 Changing Specced Magus. Used to be Deamonology but with the changed CC I find that isnt really viable anymore for me.

I like the suppresing fire I can give with a Changing spec, I have little problem with not having a lot of killing blows. I myself mostly use Indigo Fire Of Change (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8502) to finish of opponents already weakened by AoE and dots. I do find it dissapointing that the little demon guy that is spawned does absolutly no damage or even attemts to attack. It just wander to some enemy and gives it a fierce stare.

Also, I had the morale 4 Daemonic Scream (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8534) but since its impossive for me to fire it unless an enemy is right in front of me and I keep attemping to fire it of I had to dump that one. The Firewyrm of Tzeentch (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8535) was also disappointing, it never lasted the full 16 seconds, not even when there werent enemies and it doesnt seem to do all that much damage when compared to other T4 morales.

These bugs make the Magus less enjoyable for me. I can live with less killing blows or spike damage but if skills dont perform as advertised I truelly get the feeling of playing a gimped class. Ive reported these bugs and they have 'Been esacalated to the quality service department' this phrase has been pimped up and send out into to the streets so much by GOA that I can no longer take it seriously since bugs reported months ago are still very much present.

However, the magus still has awesome looks and can still be usefull albeit weaker then any other rDPS class out there. I truelly hope something will be done to make this class more viable. I would recommend a Squig Herder or a Sorceror for anyone wanting to make rDPS. The only reason I made a Magus is the looks of the class.

[Tarian]

And unfortunately, those looks - which I agree are pretty nice - are also one of your biggest issues. Because to be honest, what people say about singling out magi on the battlefield is very true. You guys are BY FAR the easiest class to pick out visually, and you're nice and squishy - a dangerous combination.

[Foofmonger]

I fail to see how the Magus has bad burst damage honestly.

With 1k int and 100 mp (very low on the mp), I can crit IFOC for 1500 for example. Couple that with the pressure of a ton of dots, and you have a pretty deadly combo. Also RW spam is very nice for burst damage.

As Havoc, a BoC/SvF/Morale can serve as some quite nice burst damage. BoC crits are in the 1.5k area, SVF crits are about 1.2k, and the morale hits for 1.2k, and they all hit roughly at the same time (as the bolt has a fly time, but SVF does not so they hit pretty much together, followed by the morale which flies fast). Which is of course altogether around 3.9k damage (would be more if I had more MP of course).

Another thing I rarely, if ever see Magii doing, is weaving SVF. If you are Havoc, the -7 seconds off SVF tactic is amazing. It allows you to weave that instant cast inbetween every other GCD. If you want to do sustained damage, FRF/SVF/FRF/SVF can be quite nice (as once again, due to travel time, they hit about the same time). With double crits, I do about 2200 damage every 3.5 seconds.

And of course, none of this takes into account the dot damage (pressure) you can apply.

And of course there is Demo, and anyone who says Lash is bad burst doesnt' know what they are talking about (its actually quite nice burst for AoE after the damage reduction).

Also, Firewyrm does a nice amount of damage for a M4 if you get it to last. It hits 4 times (once every 4 seconds), for 800 a pop (3200 total damage).

[Drakos]

My magus is 39/41 now, havoc/changing and I really dont get people who say this class isnt viable. I had BoC crit a 40 WP for 1900+ last night and have sub 900 int. My SVF already crits for 1k+ as well. I really wonder about what some people expect out of this class burst wise.

[Spellstriker]

I have both a Magus and BW. My Magus is RR75 with Warlord/Darkpromise, Lotd gear..etc..etc..and have 1100 intel with close to 400 MP, and 40% crit. Even with all that crap, my RR 48 bw with conq has by far more burst damage, along with a 50% heal debuff, AOE silence, 3s Knockdown, AOE 5s Stun....self cleanse...infinite AP...do I really need to continue? The magus is easily in the top 3 for worst class in the game, next to SWs, Marauders, and BGs. Our damge has always been sub par since the very begining, then they nerf potw into the ground, then make WPs able to cleanse our dots, then nerf our entire AOE tree by 30%. Then the one ability we had that made us unique, they have nerfed EVERY SINLGE PATCH. There has yet to be a patch where they didnt nerf Rift. Lets also not forget we have the most useless crap tactics in the game, like the ability to increase the healing to my pet, or to increase the wounds of my worthless pet..etc..oh i almost forgot to mention how pathetic our range is... 65ft on our AOE tree.

The only reason you should roll a magus is if you intend to run solo and only fight tanks, and/or non WH mdps. In which case you will have fun bc the magus is very very good against 2h tanks and non WH mdps. But fighting equal RR/geard BWs/Engis(who dont suck) you will get very frustrated.

I think the only thing keeping me playing my magus is the fact that there are a lot low rr, crap gear/bad players out there. Not going to lie I usually destroy undergeared, loww RR players, but fighting good WHs/BWs..with equal gear/rr, is just stupid, and is not even fun.

[Drakos]

...fighting good WHs/BWs..with equal gear/rr, is just stupid, and is not even fun.

This is more a matter of those 2 specific classes being grossly overpowered then the magus being underpowered IMO. I have a 55 BW too, but order is boring atm.

[Devast8nDiscoDave]

My magus is 39/41 now, havoc/changing and I really dont get people who say this class isnt viable. I had BoC crit a 40 WP for 1900+ last night and have sub 900 int. My SVF already crits for 1k+ as well. I really wonder about what some people expect out of this class burst wise.

Thats a lie, i have 1059 int and around 100 mp and my BoC barely hit for 1.5k. SVF would hit for about 900+. So how can you with less int hit for more than my magus? Just quit pulling numbers out of thin air.

Magus have seriously low DPS, it would take us about 5 spell casts just get any amount of decent damage on a target. One of our biggests problems is the lack of melee defense. Theres not much I can do if a WH or WL attack me. Sure i can knockback/root/aoe stun, but honestly that just delays the inevitable.

Magus are weak, they need looked at. Why on gods earth mythic removed the beta skills is beyond me. With those skill we could have been a pretty good class. My sub has been cancelled for 2 months now and I dont plan on returning until mythic improves the magus. Its a shame, I really like warhammer but im having more fun on the Fallen Earth beta than on warhammer in recent months. :(

[Drakos]

Thats a lie, i have 1059 int and around 100 mp and my BoC barely hit for 1.5k. SVF would hit for about 900+. So how can you with less int hit for more than my magus? Just quit pulling numbers out of thin air.

Magus have seriously low DPS, it would take us about 5 spell casts just get any amount of decent damage on a target. One of our biggests problems is the lack of melee defense. Theres not much I can do if a WH or WL attack me. Sure i can knockback/root/aoe stun, but honestly that just delays the inevitable.

Magus are weak, they need looked at. Why on gods earth mythic removed the beta skills is beyond me. With those skill we could have been a pretty good class. My sub has been cancelled for 2 months now and I dont plan on returning until mythic improves the magus. Its a shame, I really like warhammer but im having more fun on the Fallen Earth beta than on warhammer in recent months. :(

Not at all a Lie, that was with full havoc spec and the target was potentially debuffed with erosion. FYI if you arent supported by your team you are supposed to die when you get a WL/WH on you. Your CCs are there to allow your team to help. Also your sub being cancelled for 2 months means you arent playing live post patch with the BoC boost so before you call people liars you might want read some patch notes. The class does need some love I agree, but dont lie the other direction it doesnt help.

[Khintos]

I fail to see how the Magus has bad burst damage honestly.

With 1k int and 100 mp (very low on the mp), I can crit IFOC for 1500 for example. Couple that with the pressure of a ton of dots, and you have a pretty deadly combo. Also RW spam is very nice for burst damage.

As Havoc, a BoC/SvF/Morale can serve as some quite nice burst damage. BoC crits are in the 1.5k area, SVF crits are about 1.2k, and the morale hits for 1.2k, and they all hit roughly at the same time (as the bolt has a fly time, but SVF does not so they hit pretty much together, followed by the morale which flies fast). Which is of course altogether around 3.9k damage (would be more if I had more MP of course).

Another thing I rarely, if ever see Magii doing, is weaving SVF. If you are Havoc, the -7 seconds off SVF tactic is amazing. It allows you to weave that instant cast inbetween every other GCD. If you want to do sustained damage, FRF/SVF/FRF/SVF can be quite nice (as once again, due to travel time, they hit about the same time). With double crits, I do about 2200 damage every 3.5 seconds.

And of course, none of this takes into account the dot damage (pressure) you can apply.

And of course there is Demo, and anyone who says Lash is bad burst doesnt' know what they are talking about (its actually quite nice burst for AoE after the damage reduction).

Also, Firewyrm does a nice amount of damage for a M4 if you get it to last. It hits 4 times (once every 4 seconds), for 800 a pop (3200 total damage).

Congrats!

Too bad a Sorc/BW in greens can outdmg you...
Oh, they also have all sorts of other nice stuff that actually makes them usefull to a group.

[Roo Stercogburn]

Also, Firewyrm does a nice amount of damage for a M4 if you get it to last. It hits 4 times (once every 4 seconds), for 800 a pop (3200 total damage).

The big caveat there of course is the "if you get it to last"... a *constantly* recurring complaint by Magus players is that it only lasts a fraction of the amount
of time and is usually CC'd into uselessness.

With 1k int and 100 mp (very low on the mp), I can crit IFOC for 1500 for example. Couple that with the pressure of a ton of dots, and you have a pretty deadly combo. Also RW spam is very nice for burst damage.

Yes, if you spec highly into Changing you have a tonne of dots... that don't hit very hard. I've yet to see it be something for Order to be concerned about in a year of playing this spec and actually Changing was the hardest hit damage spec in the recent round of nerfs.

As Havoc, a BoC/SvF/Morale can serve as some quite nice burst damage. BoC crits are in the 1.5k area, SVF crits are about 1.2k, and the morale hits for 1.2k, and they all hit roughly at the same time (as the bolt has a fly time, but SVF does not so they hit pretty much together, followed by the morale which flies fast). Which is of course altogether around 3.9k damage (would be more if I had more MP of course).

Another thing I rarely, if ever see Magii doing, is weaving SVF. If you are Havoc, the -7 seconds off SVF tactic is amazing. It allows you to weave that instant cast inbetween every other GCD. If you want to do sustained damage, FRF/SVF/FRF/SVF can be quite nice (as once again, due to travel time, they hit about the same time). With double crits, I do about 2200 damage every 3.5 seconds.

Havoc remains relatively untouched in the most recent 'balancing'. However, it still underperforms other single target damage from other caster/ranged classes. It costs you a tactic slot to get the insta down to 3 seconds, in other words it takes a tactic to make the spell even useful. And a second tactic slot if you want to make it heal for a pitiful amount. It is not a high damage spell in the first place.

I notice when waxing lyrical about Havoc you firmly stay away from Perils of the Warp.

And of course there is Demo, and anyone who says Lash is bad burst doesnt' know what they are talking about (its actually quite nice burst for AoE after the damage reduction).

Cone I believe since the nerfs, not AoE?

I fail to see how the Magus has bad burst damage honestly.

Yes, I do believe you are being honest when you say you fail to see it.

[Lomir]

I have both a Magus and BW. My Magus is RR75 with Warlord/Darkpromise, Lotd gear..etc..etc..and have 1100 intel with close to 400 MP, and 40% crit. Even with all that crap, my RR 48 bw with conq has by far more burst damage, along with a 50% heal debuff, AOE silence, 3s Knockdown, AOE 5s Stun....self cleanse...infinite AP...do I really need to continue?
That's it, that's Mythics BIGGEST FAILURE within this game.. giving too much goodies to a single class! My words! :D Check realm-stats for the obvious.. Check how many players passed rr70 within a class.. On my server you'll find around 15-20 BWs rr 70+ and 3 Magus rr 70+. Not to mention other classes. Mythic..

Magus should get a heal debuff!! Why? Just because he sucks in burst dmg, a heal debuff is the only way to get down healers! And: a heal debuff would be REAL UTILITY giving us a decent ROLE in every PvP-Team!
THE CLASS WITH THE HIGHEST DMG DOESN'T NEED A HEAL DEBUFF.

But it's still laughable reading all those magus players proud to crit for 1200 up to 1800 dmg, while many other classes easily get over 3000.. I won't go into details.. Even the SW can crit you for 3800++.. enough said..


Lets also not forget we have the most useless crap tactics in the game, like the ability to increase the healing to my pet, or to increase the wounds of my worthless pet..etc..oh i almost forgot to mention how pathetic our range is... 65ft on our AOE tree.
That's it! The last patch nerfed one of our "decent but never overpowered or gamebraking" ae-three.. Changing has become a laughable spec to.. No one needs IfoC.

The only reason you should roll a magus is if you intend to run solo and only fight tanks, and/or non WH mdps. In which case you will have fun bc the magus is very very good against 2h tanks and non WH mdps. But fighting equal RR/geard BWs/Engis(who dont suck) you will get very frustrated.
I don't think so.. I've bigger problems against well geared Swordmasters or KotBS.. I'm talking about the ones with 800+ toughness..specially in duels.. Some DoTs don't do damage at all, our DDs are worthless too.. CC doesn't help, if you don't "bam", not at all..
So overall, good geared tanks (and there're a lot out there, cause of PvE-items-farming-necessity,.., tanks = most wanted for LotD instances).

Again, you have absolutely no chances vs. a decent tank.. You simply won't hurt them and the dmg is laughable..

I think the only thing keeping me playing my magus is the fact that there are a lot low rr, crap gear/bad players out there. Not going to lie I usually destroy undergeared, loww RR players, but fighting good WHs/BWs..with equal gear/rr, is just stupid, and is not even fun.


That's it.. :D It's also good that many experiences players went away and the gimps rested... Otherwise PvP would be much, much more stress! But as you can see, also the thread-starter doesn't know the magus class.. So don't expect Mythic to move..

[Foofmonger]

I do just fine with my 40/41 Magus TYVM, in both pugs and premades.

And I have absolutely no problem taking out better geared/RRed Engies/BWs, on a fairly consistent basis.

The class is slightly underpowered, but its not anywhere near as bad as a lot of people make it out to be. I'm sorry, but the majority of players who play the Magus class aren't very good. These are the same guys who are 40/60 and I could outdamage/outlive/outKB them at 35/32.

[Foofmonger]

The big caveat there of course is the "if you get it to last"... a *constantly* recurring complaint by Magus players is that it only lasts a fraction of the amount
of time and is usually CC'd into uselessness.


So it should be made to be immune to CC. Problem solved.


Yes, if you spec highly into Changing you have a tonne of dots... that don't hit very hard. I've yet to see it be something for Order to be concerned about in a year of playing this spec and actually Changing was the hardest hit damage spec in the recent round of nerfs.


They are concerned when I start ripping them apart. They can hit fairly hard by the way. With CQ my Pand/Mist crits for 500+, and my SoC/Withered/Baleful will all crit for around 280-340 or so. Also, you have good burst damage. I don't know why people can't learn how to use rend winds. With my sub-par gear, my rend winds will hit (after glean), for around 275 damage, and will crit for around 400 damage. Thats anywhere from 825-1200 damage every 1.5 seconds, which is comparable to the damage a lot of classes can put out (such as MDPS).

You also, have a ton of sources of damage. People like to ignore this, and not play to their strengths.

Sources of damage for my changing Magus:

1. Glean (hits for over 100, crits for less then 200)
2. Pand (hits in the high 300s, crits in the 500s)
3. SoC (hits slightly under 200, crits in the 250+ range)
4. Baleful (hits around 200, crits in the 300 range)
5. Withered (hits around 200, crits in the 300 range)
6. Mist (hits anywhere from 150-350, crits are appropriate to that)
7. Pet (hits anywhere from 80-200, depending on armor)
8. Pet DoT (hits vary, depending on pet, for flamer its comparable to some of my weaker dots)
9. Surging Pain (hits for 267 a tick)
10. Whatever DD I happen to be using (IFoC/RW)

Now, lets do some simple math.

Using the low values, and no crits (meaning the values on the low end of the spectrum), all the damage source ticks together equals out to about 1800 damage. Now with crits, that damage should look more like 2.5-3k or so.

So lets assume I get set up, I have a pet/mist up. A IB comes running towards me for instance. I cast Baleful/Withered when hes 100-65ft away. I glean him as soon as he gets in range, followed by Pand/SoC. He should now be on me. I cast KB/SoI (which procs Surging Pain on him), and then IFoC/RW while hes running back to me.

Now, for me a crit IFoC is in the 1300-1500 range (every 2 seconds). All these damage sources either hit every 2 or 3 seconds. We could use 2 or 3 for this rough calculation, it doesnt matter.

Even on the low end of the spectrum (with 1.8k from other sources, and 1k from IFoC no crits), I'm doing about 2.8k damage every 2-3 seconds. On the higher end of the spectrum (crits + IFoC crit), I'm doing 4k damage every 2-3 seconds.

If that is somehow "bad damage" or "bad burst damage", then I don't have any clue what good damage is.

Burst damage is not, and I repeat for the last time, how fast you can look at a guy and then see him down on the ground. Its not your ability to take someone down from full life the second you see him, to no life. Its your ability to spike damage.

If you do 100 DPS, you will kill faster then a guy who does 1 DPS. However, if the guy who does 1 DPS has an ability that does 2000 DPS, the guy with 1 DPS has better burst damage. The 100 DPS guy will take a target from 100-0 down quicker, but the guy with 1 DPS has the ability to lay a huge spike down that the 100 DPS guy cannot.

That in essence is burst damage. Its your ability to do a lot of damage in a short timeframe. Whether or not this can be sustained, or if it can be done immediately after tagetting someone, has nothing to do with whether it is burst damage or not.

The Magus most definitely has amazing burst damage. They simply have to set up that burst damage. In the same way a Sorc/BW has to build combustion, or an IB has to build grudge to start pumping out their burst, a Magus must dot someone up


Havoc remains relatively untouched in the most recent 'balancing'. However, it still underperforms other single target damage from other caster/ranged classes. It costs you a tactic slot to get the insta down to 3 seconds, in other words it takes a tactic to make the spell even useful. And a second tactic slot if you want to make it heal for a pitiful amount. It is not a high damage spell in the first place.


Who the hell uses a tactic slot for a non-dps related reason if your going for DPS?

You run Endless Know/-7 seconds off/15% crit/50% crit damage. Duh.

And then it does become a high damage spell (remember that if you don't have enough invader for erosion, you need to be using the 2 piece jewel set if you are havoc). With a decent base crit rate (say 20%), and the tactic, you will have +35% chance to crit. Considering most people run with a 5-15% chance to be crit, you have effectively a 40-50% crit rate. And, to top it off, SVF now crits for 200% damage. So if you hit for 600, you crit for 1200. You hit for 700, you crit for 1400. Which to be honest, is not bad at all for an instant cast 100 ft range spell that can be used on the move every other GCD.




I notice when waxing lyrical about Havoc you firmly stay away from Perils of the Warp.


I stay away from barb spells in general. Anything that doesn't scale in an MMO is crud.




Cone I believe since the nerfs, not AoE?


How is Cone not AoE? You have your terminology mixed up.

AoE = anything that hits an area of people.

There are sub-types of AoE. Cone is one of them, PBAoE, is another, GTAoE is another, and so on.




Yes, I do believe you are being honest when you say you fail to see it.

I fail to see the bad burst damage because I put out good burst damage. Its hard to see what is not happening.

[Khintos]

Must be fun playing on a server with Order who have never heard of resists or toughness...

[Spellstriker]

Again, you have absolutely no chances vs. a decent tank.. You simply won't hurt them and the dmg is laughable..

Well, I usually dont have any problem against tanks at all...95% of them (even with shields) dont give me trouble. Only time they will ever beat me is if they disrupt/block my knock back or knockdown, and even then I still kill most of them. Heck I killed prollly the best kotbs on DC in a 1v1, and he blocked my kb AND kd.

[Foofmonger]

Must be fun playing on a server with Order who have never heard of resists or toughness...

Its called glean magic, learn to love it.

[Spellstriker]

Glean would be nice, if it actually worked. And didnt do lol damage.

[MasterM]

I always laugh hard when people say magus is fine but you have to slot close quarters.

Guess what? All other RDPS have this tactic as well and they don't have to slot it to be able to make an impact and they can still sit on thair max range without the need for hanging out with enemy tanks ans MDPS.

[Zerag]

I always laugh hard when people say magus is fine but you have to slot close quarters.

Guess what? All other RDPS have this tactic as well and they don't have to slot it to be able to make an impact and they can still sit on thair max range without the need for hanging out with enemy tanks ans MDPS.

Yes this annoys me as well, Im pretty much forced to slot it to be somewhat effective when fighting alongside with the guildies, I want to be a ranged class damnit :(

[Foofmonger]

Glean would be nice, if it actually worked. And didnt do lol damage.

1. It does work. Easiest thing in the world to test.

2. It does lol damage because its a resist debuff. Its not supposed to do a ton of damage, but increase your (and others) damage.

[Spellstriker]

About 70% of the time I cast glean on a target it wont apply the dot. Same for Pand.

Sometimes It will work, but other times I have tab targeted people and spammed glean, and it will do the animation, and activate a GCD, but will not apply the dot. And Im using buffhead/pure/dufftimmer so I can see when the dot is on someone.

[Spellstriker]

I always laugh hard when people say magus is fine but you have to slot close quarters.

Guess what? All other RDPS have this tactic as well and they don't have to slot it to be able to make an impact and they can still sit on thair max range without the need for hanging out with enemy tanks ans MDPS.


yea, without close quarters my damage is a joke. The only way a magus will do any decent damage is with close quarters/endless knowledge/surging power/ 15% crit tactic. And you also need to max intel and stack 300-400 MP. If I load someone up with 4 dots from 65ft-100ft, then run in and hit surge of insanity, surging violent fire, and IFoC I can usually drop anyone, granted they dont get a ton of heals. oh and those all need to crit.

[Foofmonger]

About 70% of the time I cast glean on a target it wont apply the dot. Same for Pand.

Sometimes It will work, but other times I have tab targeted people and spammed glean, and it will do the animation, and activate a GCD, but will not apply the dot. And Im using buffhead/pure/dufftimmer so I can see when the dot is on someone.

Works about 99% of the time for me.

[rifcusad]

Generally speaking, the only people that are happy with the class are those that enjoy large scenario scores and don't understand the difference between random DPS and effective DPS, and those that enjoy a few points in Daemonology for some duelling giggles. In every situation the mediocre damage from a Magus is outperformed by a other classes. In 6v6 set groups with the changes to Chaotic Rift there isn't even a reason now to have one taking up a precious group position unless its a friend that has played one all along. If a team was making a set group from scratch these days, a Magus would not be in the team lineup.

Perils of the Warp is widely, and in my opinion correctly, regarded as a 2 second cast that does not justify the time taken to use it in a combat situation since you can apply more damage with other spells in the same amount of time. I did some testing on this back when it was first nerfed as previously I had enjoyed this spell as a reasonable counter to the ginger menace but post-nerf the points were better spent elsewhere and after testing I dropped it like a hot rock.

[Doctorwar]

The Dark Arts
Despite his weariness Daigon forced himself to read through the grimoire one more time. It was vital that he would make no mistake when performing the ritual. The book warned what happened to the incautious and the weak willed
For years Daigon had devoted himself to the study of the Dark Arts. The summoning and controlling of Daemons. Tonight he would finally summon his first Daemon, the start of his rise to power.
The letters in the grimoire twisted unpleasantly before his eyes, the book resented parting with its knowledge. But over the years Daigon had trained his mind well. He focused his will on the recalcitrant tome and the words stopped crawling over the page

The mere sight of a Daemon could drive a mortal mind insane. Their unnatural appearance shatting the sanity of the unwary. To harden himself againt these perils Daigon had volunteered to work in a field hospital on countless battlefields, he had worked in abatoirs and cesspools to train his body and mind to accept the most hideous aspects the world had to offer.
Carefull not to make a mistake in his eagerness Daigon traced the last lines of the summoning circle. Once a pact with a demon was made in this manner it could be summoned more easily over and over again. He only had to get it right once.
Daigon leaned back from the circle he had drawn, his entire body dripping with sweat from the mental energies he had expanded. He forced himself to calm down and meticoulesly check the summoning circle three times before he allowed himself to start the summoning.
The grimoire mentioned a chant as well as incense and fresh goats blood. The last at least had been easy to get, working at an abbatoir. If the people in the town found out what he was trying to do they would burn him at the stake for witchcraft however so he had had to smuggle it out carefully.
Diagon carefully intoned the last words of the chant and watched in anticipation when a purple smoke filled the circle. He could see a faint outline through the mists. The magus strained to make out more detail, all the while keeping his mental guards up for the horrifying visage that hid inside the arcane fog
Finally a sound very much like a human sneeze sounded from within the cloud, showering Daigon with demonic snot. The Magus reflexivly closed his eyes. When he opened them again he beheld his daemonic servant for the first time
He saw a creature not higher then his waist, it was a fluffy pink color, had little beady eyes. And while it did have four arms they where long and spindly and gave the creature a comical appearance. To top it all off the little fiend had a large tongue portruding from its mouth
This is the deamonic servant that should aid me?’ shouted Daigon ‘Its a clown! A buffoon!’ The Deamon didnt seem to mind these insults in the least, in fact it was using one of its four hands to casually explore the contents of a nostril seeming to pay little mind to the despairing Magus
Ive spend years in cesspools and abatoirs, risked death on the battlefields and at the stake for THIS?’ Moaned Daigon.

A few days later, after Daigon had failed to show up for work at the abatoir some of his co workers decided to see what was wrong. They found Daigon muttering in front of an empty summoning circle, his previously black hair had turned grey and all he did was mutter ‘this cant be, this cant be, this cant be’ over and over

Insanity ofcourse was no reason not to burn someone at the stake. The witchhunter who got called in had decided to burn the co workers who found Daigon as well as an added precaution. Besides, it had been a cold hard winter and he got paid for the amount of witches he burned.
He stood contemplating the pyres with a priest of sigmar. ‘What is it that they see that drives them to madness do you think father?’ the witchhunter asked.
‘My son, be glad that the faithfull are spared such horrendous visions’ answered the priest. ‘surely the daemonic must be hideous in nature and frightening to behold to scare a man senseless like that’

end of story

I truelly enjoyed playing a Magus, but the daemons? they could have been a bit more impressive, the damage could have been better, the overal usability of the class leaves something to be desired

but hey......mount at level 1 beat that other classes! :p