Your opinion on mods

[Eisenban]

What do you guys think about mods?

I never used any while playing EQ2 at first, but eventually started using some. However, I used quite a bit in WoW. The difference was that my mods in EQ2 really only changed the appearance, while I always felt that the mods that were available for WoW actually gave me a competitive edge.

This concerns me with WAR focusing on pvp. I almost hope they don't allow mods, just so people can't create mods that give them a competitive advantage. It just seems to take away from the skill, when you have a mod that tells you everything you need to do and everything your opponent is doing.

[Rhae]

It just seems to take away from the skill, when you have a mod that tells you everything you need to do and everything your opponent is doing.

QFT.

The only mods I use are to make the WoW UI actually usable and put things where I want them, oh and KTM/DBM only b/c its mandated for raids.

Didn't use anything in the other MMOs I've played - never really felt the need to.
If others use them - it doesn't bother me but when they have to macro and mod everything, that's where I drew the line as a class lead/GM.

[Dagoth]

I hate mods, I play without any, like a man. A stupid, gimped man, but a man.

[Pangscar]

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22833

[Skyldig]

I think that a lot of mods can be good for a MMO.
They just have to make sure, that no mods, that give advantages over people without them, are prohibitet/not working.

Mods that are changing the play in combat-situation in any way, are bad. Especially in a PvP (RvR) oriented game it's important that the will be no combat-advantages delivered by mods.

Mods that doesn't effect combat, such as mailmods, auctionmods, chatmods ect., are needed to make the game great. The reason for this is, that one game may have different preferences than other players on how things are best organised. Therefore the developers can only suit the majority, not everyone.

[Regolyth]

I hate mods, I play without any, like a man. A stupid, gimped man, but a man.

LOL - Too funny.

[Tygorn]

I used mods/addons a lot when I played WoW. Everyone has different playstyles, and want to know different things when they're fighting - the option of having mods makes it possible for me to create the interface that I'm most comfortable playing with.

Not allowing mods would be a terrible idea. They should of course be rather limited in what they can do, i.e. hopefully no healbot-addon, addons that always tells you what skills to use etc, but not allowing them altogether would be a mistake imho, and might even result in the loss of those players who might not find the standard UI to their taste.

[Eisenban]

Sorry Rhae, apparently I don't know my l33t speak as well as I should.

See, this is why it's bad.

My apologies, mate.

[Septicrazor]

If the dev's are smart they should look at what the most popular/mandatory mods are used for and add them to the game thus eliminating the need for them. The game play of say WoW and WAR will be so different in the end game that you should not need things like CT and KTM, at least not as much IMO.

[Haager]

The game play of say WoW and WAR will be so different in the end game that you should not need things like CT and KTM, at least not as much IMO.


You are correct about the second part of you paragraph , I think for pve content.....However if allowed to, mods like Natur's Cast bars, Healbot, Decursive,Dirty Rogue Tricks, along with some others that I just cant remember at this time.......would all be useful in RvR.

If the dev's are smart they should look at what the most popular/mandatory mods are used for and add them to the game thus eliminating the need for them.

While a good hind sight reference I don't think that even the dev's can fathom what some gamers will come up with to improve or change a game to his/her uses thats why alot of the mods get broken by Blizzard. (healbot,decursive,charge in combat scripts)


Edit-as a side note Eisenban ( QFT) I don't think this means what you think it means Quoted for Truth- QFT

[Eisenban]

Really? I always thought it stood for Quit f****** Talking.

Need a confirmation.

If it is Quoted for Truth, then I will have to edit my previous post. Boy, I sure hope I am wrong with what I think it stands for, lol.:p

[oakae]

Really? I always thought it stood for Quit f****** Talking.



LOL it's the first time I've heard that one. It is Quoted For Truth.

I do like mods, the ones I mostly use help slim the original UI making a much cleaner appearance and free up screen space

[Aerowyn]

I used a lot of mods in EQ; fewer in EQ2, which didn't seem to need them. I find the good map mods indispensable no matter what game I'm playing, though. And in some games I like the xp mods that show experience gain in percentage.

I usually don't mod just for appearance sake--no retooling my spell gems or whole UI for looks, I mean. But for functionality, yes. There were some good Vanguard UI mods that I did use, but I ended up going back to the default UI when the mod makers stopped keeping up with the patches.

[Eisenban]

LOL it's the first time I've heard that one. It is Quoted For Truth.

I do like mods, the ones I mostly use help slim the original UI making a much cleaner appearance and free up screen space

Thanks for the clarification. I'm going to have to re-read every post I've ever come across with QFT in it now.

Color me stupid. :confused:

[rickochet]

I , for one, love mods. I am a big believer in "knowledge is power" and the ability to mod the UI can supply me with info that the "default UI" may not. Also, I very rarely ever like the layouts of most default UIs, and like to be able to customize the layout and look of my interface.

Yes, some mods can give players a competitive edge. But some of us aren't as "l33t" as others, and some of these mods allow us "lesser" players to compete. For the few of us who play with some sense of honor, barely beating a single opponent in combat is much more gratifying than steamrolling over one.

[Knolle]

Never liked them.

It's a terrible annoyance getting them to run consistently, given that patches tend to break them and all that stuff.
Then there's the fact that, if the mods grant a slight edge in some situations, people start putting up demands for these mods.
I'm aware it's not cheating, but it "feels" like cheating to me. Downloading a third party program from some odd website that enhances my chances above those in the basic game?I don't really mind simple UI mods that just rearrange the Interface, but anything beyond that isn't just my cup of tea.

[Tristis]

I'm all for mods for certain things. I'm using quite a large widescreen monitor and most games support widescreen for graphics, but not interface. There's is nothing more annoying that a pile of 3/4 10 slot skillbars sitting in the middle when they could easily spread along the bottom.

In WoW I used too mods to spread my skill bars and also one, which I'm ashamed to admit, put a 'Hud' over my character. Again, this is purely because of the large screen. The distance my eyes have to cover to constantly look to the corner to see my health tires me after a while. With it in the middle, as a nice transparent circular display along with pet health, target health, casting bars etc, it's simply more efficient.

UI mods, not only the reskinning ones can be and are useful.

Ones that take over aspects of the game on the other hand should not be allowed.

[NoneSuch]

Mods which let you customise your UI and such Are great, Mods which do anything else are awful.

[U4godlike]

IMO
No mods is fine as long as we have a crap-load of universal customization :cool:
I personally remember the UI's giving me issues right and left and... Man if they defaulted after I spent a hour setting them all up perfectly... I could have thrown my monitor out the window :x

[wtnind]

I'm aware it's not cheating, but it "feels" like cheating to me. Downloading a third party program from some odd website that enhances my chances above those in the basic game?Its not a third party program, its a script. The difference is it can only do what WAR allows it to do (through its API and execution engine), a third party program can do anything windows can do and isnt limited by WAR.

So the truth is that Mythic supports everything that any addon can do, if one comes along that it turns out isn't ok with them then they restrict the API to prevent that functionality.

We live in a world where open source software is as good if not better than commercially available applications. It makes sense that a developer allows open source implementation of certain aspects of thier program (namely the user interface).

For this reason I fully support addon users getting any kind of advantage over luddites who stick to just to what comes in the box. Mythic says its ok because thier API allows it.

Skill at competing through the games engine is completely different than skill at operating a bad interface.

[Knolle]

[quote=wtnind;751439]
[/list]Its not a third party program, its a script. The difference is it can only do what WAR allows it to do (through its API and execution engine), a third party program can do anything windows can do and isnt limited by WAR.[quote]

Granted, I worded that wrongly, calling it a program instead of a script that's run by the actual program, but that's just argueing semantics. I'm afraid I'm too much of a "luddite" (It's a nice word nevertheless) to see much of a difference between these two, since I focus on the result in this case.

And that is, that by using these scripts, a person can make the game easier for themselves and gain certain advantages over people that don't use them.
That is an advantage I just do not want.

As mentioned, I don't see the point and wouldn't like doing it myself.
I ain't saying it should be done with. Many people really like it and, as far as I'm concerned, more power to them.

[Pangscar]

Granted, I worded that wrongly, calling it a program instead of a script that's run by the actual program, but that's just argueing semantics. I'm afraid I'm too much of a "luddite" (It's a nice word nevertheless) to see much of a difference between these two, since I focus on the result in this case.

And that is, that by using these scripts, a person can make the game easier for themselves and gain certain advantages over people that don't use them.
That is an advantage I just do not want.

As mentioned, I don't see the point and wouldn't like doing it myself.
I ain't saying it should be done with. Many people really like it and, as far as I'm concerned, more power to them. But thats just it. Is not semantics. One thing is actually cheating(or exploiting) and the other is doing what the game allows you to do. The only way you are at a disadvantage is if you choose not to use whats available for you to use. Thats not the mods or the games fault, its yours.

[PersonalRiot]

Generally I don't mind mods for visual effect but that should be their limit. Generally commands should also be limited to players such as /assist and /follow but that is also an opinion.

I played games that had no mods support and they didn't suffer at all. I have played games with complete mod support and I disliked the results. So if I really needed to pick an extreme I rather just have none.

[Tlear]

Mods are just another part of equation in being better then the opponent, you start by downloading and looking at what people did, you can then get into customizing them to suit your particular needs and such :) I remember when people used to complain about using voice coms.. it is adapt or die thing.

[Splinta]

Im fine with mods, but personally I dont really use them. The only mods I use are the ones that change how the UI looks and not ones that tell you what spells the enemy is casting ect, mostly because they clutter up the screen and make things more confusing.

An example of a type of mod that I use is X Perl for WoW. I just hate the default unit frames that Blizzard made.

But in the end its all down to personal preference really.

[Karimi]

Well aside from being a better way to show information, having mods takes the edge off the learning curve and means you give the experienced a bit more room while you aren't confusing the beginner as much.

I think the main problem with too many mods is that some mods are just so necessary that anyone who doesn't have them is at a disadvantage. I literally cannot play WoW without mods. I can "play" but without DBM I probably couldn't do any t5 dungeon +, and arena would be near impossible unless I invest a good deal of time into fixing my hotkeys. Certain mods also make the game far easier to play, I've seen one or two arena mods that pretty much only make you click a button to seriously cripple another class. This removes several major elements of pvp : skill,decision making,and timing.

Summary : Mods are great, but if there was a way to make sure everyone knew which mods were good (aside from just being referred by a friend) then I could support a greater deal of mods since no one would be truly disadvantaged.

[Nerissa]

[/list]
Its not a third party program, its a script. The difference is it can only do what WAR allows it to do (through its API and execution engine), a third party program can do anything windows can do and isnt limited by WAR.

So the truth is that Mythic supports everything that any addon can do, if one comes along that it turns out isn't ok with them then they restrict the API to prevent that functionality.


^

An addon cannot do ANYTHING that Mythic does not want it to do. Mythic is the one with the scripting 'keys', in a sense.

[Ard Righ]

Only mods I have used were in WoW. I tried a few of the action-key moving mods and got annoyed with them, I learnt to use the default bar UI just fine.

The mods that I did like were the Auctioneer and item mods. These shouldn't be needed much in WAR, I believe any items of interest will appear as a TOK entry anyway.

The Auctioneer mod was only used to gather and average out prices for items each time you go to the AH. So in fact it's not doing much other than saving a lot of time ascertaining the value of a certain resource.

Not sure if Auction mods will do much in WAR, might be helpful for crafters though to know how much it would cost to craft an item (thus charge people markup on provided resources).

So yeah, dont like mods that affect combat, but non-combat related seem fine to me.

[wtnind]

An addon cannot do ANYTHING that Mythic does not want it to do. Mythic is the one with the scripting 'keys', in a sense.

That's what I said. I'd also like to reiterate the difference between skill at choosing which ability to use when and skill at using the interface to give the order. In a perfect world you could use abilities just by thinking and know know what all your opponents are doing around you.

[Constraint]

I'm absolutely delighted by Mythic's stance in regards to addons. Interface changes, Chat/Combat log clean-ups, additional action bars, moveable minimaps, more detailed tooltips etc, just makes the game look a lot 'cleaner' imo. No-one's asking you to like them; just like no-ones asking you to buy that 100$ mouse, which would significantly improve your in-game experience, more-so than an addon ever could.

[Kiant]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm going to have to re-read every post I've ever come across with QFT in it now.

Color me stupid. :confused:

Dont worry, i used to think QFT meant Quite ing True :P

[Tak'zenen]

I like addons that are UI enhancements, etc.

If a UI helps in a battle (timer, cast bar, etc) Then i think it should be banned

[Eisenban]

Dont worry, i used to think QFT meant Quite ing True :P

I'm not the only one that got it wrong. Mate, you just made my day. Seeing this thread each day with new posts has just been an ugly reminder of my incompetence, lol.

[Loekii]

Mods which let you customise your UI and such Are great, Mods which do anything else are awful.

I agree.

Mods should not do anything that the standard UI does not directly do.

Basically, a fully modded UI should not do anything different than the Standard UI.

[Nerissa]

Basically, a fully modded UI should not do anything different than the Standard UI.

Which defeats the entire purpose of making a mod, which is adding functionality that the developers did not include. This can be something as basic as simply allowing you to resize and move your hotbars around without restriction.

It can be something silly that changes fonts in game. Or plays music in game.

It can be a mod that tracks the duration of your debuffs, so you aren't constantly having to switch targets to keep track of them all. This is very useful when playing a debuff-oriented class.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, it can be a mod that tracks your buffs, so you aren't constantly thumbing through your party list making sure everyone is buffed in addition to your in-combat duties.


Sometimes, the developers miss functions that are very useful.

[pewpewarrows]

I like addons that are UI enhancements, etc.

If a UI helps in a battle (timer, cast bar, etc) Then i think it should be banned

Timers and cast bars are UI enhancements. I truly don't understand the majority of the arguments of the anti-mod community. 95% of the addons in development take existing functionality of the default UI and merely enhance it, make it more visually appealing, and/or tweak it so difficult-to-discerne events are readily visible.

I would then say that 4.9% of the remaining addons do something innovative, or potentially controversial with the existing API. Here-in lies the very creative programming projects, such as threat meters. Some argue that they do too much and should not be allowed. I fail to see how (especially PvP-wise) someone using one has a clear advantage over someone who is not in possession of the mod.

Then you're left with the 0.1% of mods that are intended for malicious abuse of the API. The most prominent of these in WoW's history were Cross-Faction Communication and classic Decurse. Both of these were clear exploits of exisiting technology, and are being suppressed by Blizzard. These I have no problem banning.

Could someone care to tell me how they believe the other 99.9% provide an unfair advantage?

[Retina]

I'm quoting Nerissa in this reply, but my comments are not meant specifically for them. I do use the word "you" when replying, but that's the the greater you, not you specifically. Confusing, yes? It's just that Nerissa brought up some great points and I'd like to give counter-point to them. Thanks for listening, now on with the shoe...

Which defeats the entire purpose of making a mod, which is adding functionality that the developers did not include.
That's what feedback is for. Mythic has a very open communication channel to the fans unlike pretty much every other company. Use it. Get them to add the functionality you seek.

This can be something as basic as simply allowing you to resize and move your hotbars around without restriction.

It can be something silly that changes fonts in game. Or plays music in game.
No problem here. Altering the look of the UI is something they've always supported. As for playing music, um, are you saying the WAR music is bad? Heh, just kidding. We tend to play music on our PS3 while it's folding (Go [H]ordies!).

It can be a mod that tracks the duration of your debuffs, so you aren't constantly having to switch targets to keep track of them all. This is very useful when playing a debuff-oriented class.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, it can be a mod that tracks your buffs, so you aren't constantly thumbing through your party list making sure everyone is buffed in addition to your in-combat duties.
Ah, see here the discussion has moved into the "I can't play my class, please help!" category. This is where you, the player, need to just learn the game and your class and your abilities. It's really not that hard.

Again, I mean the greater you, not you. Err yeah, that.

Sometimes, the developers miss functions that are very useful.
Yes, they do, but again, this is what feedback is for.

I just really hope it's like DAoC and not like WoW. DAoC takes skill and knowhow to play, WoW just takes mods and a few mouse-clicks. Yes, that's an oversimplification, but not by much.

[wtnind]

That's what feedback is for. Mythic has a very open communication channel to the fans unlike pretty much every other company. Use it. Get them to add the functionality you seek.


I would rather developers focus on adding new content than adding interface enhancements with a limited subsection of the player base. The whole benefit of open source development is that large volumes of stuff can be produced for free, you want orckspeak option for chat? You want to hear unrealtournament ULTRAKILL sounds to play when you gib 2 players in succession? You want a combat log with options to highlight your effects in red? you are colourblind and cant tell the difference between the different party/global texts and want to make one italics?

It is impossible for developers to cater for all these things and more, but it is possible for them to create an API that allows it to be created by players. I would rather 2 new cities than 5 new UI modifications I wouldn't use but what I'd really like is BOTH, and that's what addons allow.

Saying 'I wont use addons' is the same as saying 'I wont use positionals because they are too hard for me to get my head around'.

[Dregu]

My only complaint against mods is this: I am lazy and I don't want to bother with them, but I am FORCED to bother with them, because you are gimping yourself if you do not use them. If you decide not to use mods, you will eventually find yourself in a situation where you lose a battle because your opponent had more/better mods than you. Who wants to lose battles because of mods?

I would much rather play a game where the UI is fixed and unchangable. Then you can guarantee an even playing field (at least on one front). I just want things to be as fair as possible. We already have to overcome class balance issues. We should not have to overcome UI balance issues as well.

[Retina]

I would rather developers focus on adding new content than adding interface enhancements with a limited subsection of the player base. The whole benefit of open source development is that large volumes of stuff can be produced for free, you want orckspeak option for chat? You want to hear unrealtournament ULTRAKILL sounds to play when you gib 2 players in succession? You want a combat log with options to highlight your effects in red? you are colourblind and cant tell the difference between the different party/global texts and want to make one italics?

It is impossible for developers to cater for all these things and more, but it is possible for them to create an API that allows it to be created by players. I would rather 2 new cities than 5 new UI modifications I wouldn't use but what I'd really like is BOTH, and that's what addons allow.

Saying 'I wont use addons' is the same as saying 'I wont use positionals because they are too hard for me to get my head around'.
You make it sound like the developers can only do one thing at a time: get a city or update the UI. This is vastly incorrect.

There are teams that are responsible for different sections of the game. What we're talking about here is just the UI team. They don't deal with cities, they don't deal with classes, they don't deal with servers or networking, they just do UI.

So yes, you can easily have 2 new cities and 5 new UI mods. All done officially and everyone will have them and be on the same playing field (as far as the UI goes).

[Retina]

To argue another point that seems to be made all the time by the pro-code-mod people is that anything that's bad will be patched out of the API. Yes, this is true. But at what cost?

Here's the problem your argument. You say the following are true:


they don't have time to do the UI stuff we want
they have the time to police all the mods created and patch the UI where needed

This is a contradiction. Policing all the code people use in mods would take vastly more time than simply listening to the community and creating UI functionality to fit that need.

[Pangscar]

You make it sound like the developers can only do one thing at a time: get a city or update the UI. This is vastly incorrect.

There are teams that are responsible for different sections of the game. What we're talking about here is just the UI team. They don't deal with cities, they don't deal with classes, they don't deal with servers or networking, they just do UI.

So yes, you can easily have 2 new cities and 5 new UI mods. All done officially and everyone will have them and be on the same playing field (as far as the UI goes).

Well thats not entirely accurate what your saying either as the UI team is also responsible for the ToK, quests and lots of other things I cant remember right now. But point is their only job isn't to make the UI. Having them make mods as well would be a huge waste of time and energy. As like the poster you quoted is saying, its better for them to work on things everyone will use then to work on things only a certain number of players will use. and just like Blizzard found out Mythic knows that yes in fact that players can come up with mods that they wouldn't even have dreamed of themselves.

They are allowing their UI to be modded so that right there tells you that they agree it would be a waste of their time to make mods and let it in the capable hands of the players. Theres also no way they would ever have time to satisfy everyones mod needs and wants, the modders/players do. and everyone has an even playing field no matter who makes the mods everyone has access to them no matter where they come from.

[Pangscar]

To argue another point that seems to be made all the time by the pro-code-mod people is that anything that's bad will be patched out of the API. Yes, this is true. But at what cost?

Here's the problem your argument. You say the following are true:


they don't have time to do the UI stuff we want
they have the time to police all the mods created and patch the UI where needed

This is a contradiction. Policing all the code people use in mods would take vastly more time than simply listening to the community and creating UI functionality to fit that need.


Thats not true either. They don't have to police every single mod. All they have to do is only allow the mods to work a certain way. So if someone trys to make a mod that exploits or breaks the rules it simply does not work from the start. Mythic makes their UI only work a certain way and the mod makers have to conform with that otherwise the mod does not work.

[CaptainAwesome]

I'm up for mods too as long it doesn't make my WAR gaming experience too EZ mode

[Retina]

Thats not true either. They don't have to police every single mod.
Yes, it is true and yes they do. If they open up the API, they have to monitor how it's used. Period.
All they have to do is only allow the mods to work a certain way. So if someone trys to make a mod that exploits or breaks the rules it simply does not work from the start. Mythic makes their UI only work a certain way and the mod makers have to conform with that otherwise the mod does not work.
You know, some of the worst words to hear in software development are "all you have to do". You're telling me "all they have to do" is make a bullet proof API for client-side scripting for an RvR MMO. Yes, bullet proof. It has to be since this is a very competitive game.

You know, I'd rather them spend their time making more content, balancing classes, creating more quests, flushing out the ToK even more, etc, etc, etc then trying to anticipate and test every possible use of an API and how it could possibly be exploited.

This is the same argument that I've already rebuffed. You want them to waste their time on making a scripting framework BEFORE launch. I want them to finish the game, then look at enhancements the community wants.

As I've said many times before: if you want to change the skin of the UI, go for it, have a blast, more power to you. But that's all you get.

[pewpewarrows]

Yes, it is true and yes they do. If they open up the API, they have to monitor how it's used. Period.

You know, some of the worst words to hear in software development are "all you have to do". You're telling me "all they have to do" is make a bullet proof API for client-side scripting for an RvR MMO. Yes, bullet proof. It has to be since this is a very competitive game.

You know, I'd rather them spend their time making more content, balancing classes, creating more quests, flushing out the ToK even more, etc, etc, etc then trying to anticipate and test every possible use of an API and how it could possibly be exploited.

This is the same argument that I've already rebuffed. You want them to waste their time on making a scripting framework BEFORE launch. I want them to finish the game, then look at enhancements the community wants.

As I've said many times before: if you want to change the skin of the UI, go for it, have a blast, more power to you. But that's all you get.

The skinning-only route is, I'm sorry to say, an aged way of thinking about MMO's.

Open-source API has shown to be the future of MMO User Interfacing. It took Blizzard years to implement UI features that mod authors were able to accomplish on their own.

They don't have to make a bullet-proof API. That's like asking for a bugless piece of software: it's not going to happen. What they do need to design is a robust, stable, and well-documented API. Modifiying their own code and subsequently the default UI, should they want to make changes in the future, is infinitly easier with the API in Open Source.

They don't have to test every available aspect of the API either. That's what Beta Testers are for. They've stated several times that they have a very specialized group of testers ripping their code apart and testing all of the functions and variables. Guess what? They wouldn't have been able to do that if the API wasn't open source. They would have to do all that testing internally. Thus, if you truly want them to spend more time improving the default UI, flushing out the ToK, adding more quests, etc., then you should support the direction they've taken.

On a final note, I must say that the vast, VAST majority of mods are variations of a "skin" to the default UI. Here's a list of WoW Mod Categories:

Auction House (all they do is show the already present data in different filters, and split up the mind-numbing task of having to individually sell every item)
Actionbar (reskinned bars for your skills, with keybindings)
Bag and Inventory (again, reskinned to show categories of items, or to combine all bags into one, or to show you your bank when out of the city)
Buffs/Debuffs (take the existing buff frames and resizes/moves them, or displays them in a bar format instead of an icon)
Chat (oh noes! your channels are colored differently, and you can log everything!)
Combat (yeah, seeing your dps metered on-screen versus other peoples' will really provide them an unfair advantage)
Group/Guild (most functions will be included in WAR's grouping and guild UI)
Map Mods (coordinates!? oh the humanitiy. you mean I can move my minimap or make it a different shape? call the FBI.)
Mail (send mail to multiple people at once, or open all your mail with one click)
Quest/Leveling (again, included in the WAR interface already)
PvP/Arena (ok, so seeing every unitframe of your opponent in arena might give you a nice edge. I agree there)
Raid (like arena, raiding bars and mods dumb down the game too much. Gives unfair advantage. I agree these shouldn't exist)
Tooltip (you mean, I can take information from other parts of my screen and put it in one tidy place?)
Unitframe (take existing unitframes, and reskin 'em)

So out of all the addon categories, the only existing ones today that might be controversial are Raid Timers or Arena Unit Frames. Am I missing anything? If not, let the API be Open Source, and be done with it.

[Malis]

As i posted in another thread. I tend to like mods that allow me to adjust the UI and that allow me to see information better.

Im against mods that provide a direct combat advantage.

[slvrfang]

Mods can only utilize the dynamic data the game client receives... and any static data it incorporates into itself. The latter part is where mods shine, and where they start to do more than the basic UI.

For instance, there is a widely used raid mod that has known boss fight data in its code. It identifies the abilties the mob uses from the combat messages, keeps track of their cooldown, making the fight a lot easier. It replaces human knowledge and timing to a great degree by linking dynamic data (the combat message in the above example) to static data (the boss fight database). Mods that work that way bug me the most.

[Utakata]

I have an idea, what if they just set up a submission system where people submitted mods to be tested and approved by Mythic, and if they are approved they get added to the official database and the server only accepts those files from being run.

It would prevent virus distribution, and it would be a simple way of letting Mythic monitor what is and what isn't "cheating" (ie. decursive)

[Nerissa]

I would much rather play a game where the UI is fixed and unchangable. Then you can guarantee an even playing field (at least on one front).


Then you get to fight against your UI because chances are you're going to want it to do something that the dev team overlooked.


A moddable UI allows for great convenience on the player's part. Remember that a LOT of hated mod functionality (cast bars in particular) has to do with information being given to players THAT THEY DON'T NEED.


Do I need to know in my combat log that JonnyMcBrightWizard is casting Fireball of Ownage at me? Only if the developers intend for a cast bar to be made if they don't include it, because that's EXACTLY what giving that information to the player allows.

[Nerissa]

It would prevent virus distribution, and it would be a simple way of letting Mythic monitor what is and what isn't "cheating" (ie. decursive)


You forget that Decursive was a VERY necessary raiding mod for any class that could remove debuffs due to how raid design was at the time. Stop being dense.


(How needed? There were fights where there would literally be people dedicated to the task of removing debuffs)

[Nerissa]

For instance, there is a widely used raid mod that has known boss fight data in its code. It identifies the abilties the mob uses from the combat messages, keeps track of their cooldown, making the fight a lot easier. It replaces human knowledge and timing to a great degree by linking dynamic data (the combat message in the above example) to static data (the boss fight database). Mods that work that way bug me the most.

These mods are used largely because there is often no warning as to when Boss Ability X will happen... but it's usually on a timer. You could use a stopwatch to do the same thing, but a stopwatch isn't conveniently located on your screen now, is it?


The best part is, the messages used could simply be "You are affected by [insert ability here]", which is data that the devs cannot deny the user. The rest is all data gathered from player testing, and does not rely on the game at all.

Breaking the functionality of such mods borders on the annoying to potentially self-destructive.

EDIT: The best way to combat these mods is through random.

However, random is completely awful in PvE, as anyone that squared off against the first incarnation of Archimonde in WoW would be very happy to tell you.

[slvrfang]

These mods are used largely because there is often no warning as to when Boss Ability X will happen... but it's usually on a timer. You could use a stopwatch to do the same thing, but a stopwatch isn't conveniently located on your screen now, is it?


The best part is, the messages used could simply be "You are affected by [insert ability here]", which is data that the devs cannot deny the user. The rest is all data gathered from player testing, and does not rely on the game at all.

Breaking the functionality of such mods borders on the annoying to potentially self-destructive.

EDIT: The best way to combat these mods is through random.

However, random is completely awful in PvE, as anyone that squared off against the first incarnation of Archimonde in WoW would be very happy to tell you.

Could they possibly give the client a privileged access to a chat channel, and deny mod access to it? That way mods couldn't utilize the data coming through the channel and match it with the database. I don't know how LUA works, if what I said isn't any indication.

[pewpewarrows]

Could they possibly give the client a privileged access to a chat channel, and deny mod access to it? That way mods couldn't utilize the data coming through the channel and match it with the database. I don't know how LUA works, if what I said isn't any indication.

They could very easily just deny all API function calls to the combat log. (For non-technical readers: that means no mod could ever really get information about ongoing combat).

[Utakata]

You forget that Decursive was a VERY necessary raiding mod for any class that could remove debuffs due to how raid design was at the time. Stop being dense.


(How needed? There were fights where there would literally be people dedicated to the task of removing debuffs)

The game shouldn't be designed to REQUIRE user-made mods. Period.

I don't mind mods being available or giving edges like timers and stuff, but to make it a necessity is kind of silly.

The original UI should be able to accomplish all the necessities.

[Loekii]

The game shouldn't be designed to REQUIRE user-made mods. Period.

I don't mind mods being available or giving edges like timers and stuff, but to make it a necessity is kind of silly.

The original UI should be able to accomplish all the necessities.

I agree, but I disagree when people claim things are 'necessary'. I don't believe they design games in such a manner, but rather that players become lazy and myopic.

Sort of like claiming the Internet is necessary to do research for a paper. The Internet just makes it easier to do research. People were researching for centuries before the Internet.

It is an example of one of the detrements mods can cause. It coddles players to the point they think they cannot do without it, nor they simply don't want to expend the energy to do it another way. My opinion.

[CaptainAwesome]

Mods are required when mmorpgs lack certain features, lets hope WAR do their best to reduce the need for them

[Vucub]

If you have played WoW you know there is one necessary, the threat meter. Personally I hated threat meters i spent most boss fights hitting a few keys and staring at my threat meter. Especially since there are fights where you cant afford just the slight bit of threat more than the tank but have to do a massive amount of dps in short period of time.

[Hive]

That's what feedback is for. Mythic has a very open communication channel to the fans unlike pretty much every other company. Use it. Get them to add the functionality you seek.
And wait how many months for the turn around? For example, I tend to prefer my UI to be a lot smaller than what you usually get fresh from the box; should I have to slog through months of playtime staring at overly large buttons hoping and praying that an overworked Mythic coder notices my request and has time to do something about it?



Ah, see here the discussion has moved into the "I can't play my class, please help!" category. This is where you, the player, need to just learn the game and your class and your abilities. It's really not that hard.
You do realize that timers are just a re skinned representation of information that's already available... or have you just moved into the realm of "I can't figure out what mods are or how to make them work so no one should have them"? This is where you learn the game and how to use mods to display information to make your play time more productive and fun, it's really not that hard. ;)

I see a lot of complaints about mods like DBM and the like making raiding "too easy", yet how much of the player base has actually advanced beyond the earliest stages? The same can be said of some of the pvp based mods out there-- just because you have the information doesn't mean you know what to do with it. You can give the worst player in the world every scrap of information on his screen and all you'd have is a up-to-date bad player. Teamwork and skill will get you more kills than knowing which of your opponents abilities are on cool down.

The few mods I'd agree with that are cheating fall under the "play the game for you" catergory and even then there are a few exceptions-- Decursive made one of the most mind-numbingly boring chores in a raid livable, but it's need was caused by a failure in game design philosophy and it did trivialize a few classes in pvp. With the right planning such things should never be needed or legal.

TLDR version for the ADD kids: Mods are a Good Thing.

[Loekii]

I bet that the 'need' would never have surfaced if the mod never existed.

People become dependent on such crutches and then use the word 'it is needed' or 'impossible without it' to justify using it.

[Retina]

Gotta say that Loekii is making great points.

Here's the real fact: we don't know what Mythic is going to do yet. Their FAQ answer on this question is vague and should really be resubmitted for a better answer, but we still have time for that.

So many people are assuming there will be an API and you'd code stuff in Lua. My question is: where did Mythic ever say that? I'd really like that link to that quote because I haven't seen it.

I just keep seeing people saying that mods are great because they take the info you already have and make it easier to use. They make boss fights easier. They make PvP easier. They make gathering easier. They make the AH easier.

Easier? You really need the game to be easier? Really?

[Gorrr]

My only complaint against mods is this: I am lazy and I don't want to bother with them, but I am FORCED to bother with them, because you are gimping yourself if you do not use them. If you decide not to use mods, you will eventually find yourself in a situation where you lose a battle because your opponent had more/better mods than you. Who wants to lose battles because of mods?

I would much rather play a game where the UI is fixed and unchangable. Then you can guarantee an even playing field (at least on one front). I just want things to be as fair as possible. We already have to overcome class balance issues. We should not have to overcome UI balance issues as well.

I so agree with you.

[Mckrae]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm going to have to re-read every post I've ever come across with QFT in it now.

Color me stupid. :confused:

*Scribbles orange and purple across your face*

lol... orange....

And on topic, I've played WoW since launch and have only ever used one mod, and that was venantes. Loved the circle with the pop out bars, simply because it let me see more of the terrain and scenery (which makes any game for me. I'm a sight seer by nature... oo look at dah perties!) I dont even use the "raid required mods" even though my raid leader says they are required.
Raid Leader : Hey do you have KTm, and blank, and blank, and blank , and blank installed?
Me: Of course! *snickers behind his computer screen, knowing he has No mods installed*
RL : Good.

A good player should not need mods.

[Pangscar]

I bet that the 'need' would never have surfaced if the mod never existed.

People become dependent on such crutches and then use the word 'it is needed' or 'impossible without it' to justify using it.





Just a quick question, is WAR going to be the first MMO you will have played and will it be the first PC game you have ever played? I ask this because your comments suggest a lack of experience with PC games. See PC gamers have ALWAYS been into modding and doing things to the games to make it better suit you. Its as part of the genre as using a keyboard and mouse to play them is. So saying there wouldn't be a need for mods if they didn't exist is much like saying a car wouldn't need tires if they(tires) didn't exist. There will ALWAYS be a need for mods as there will ALWAYS be gamers who are not satisfied with the default settings and appearances and as polls and facts show these gamers are in the vast majority. Game devs such as Blizzard and Mythic understand this and make there games with UI's that are able to modded.

Also your second sentence suggests you have never played WoW where yes in order to be successful in the PvE endgame you MUST use mods(especially as a healer) to get the info asap and react to it asap. Was a basic game design flaw sure but thats a whole topic onto itself. Its not at all about getting so called dependent on mods. Its about being able to have things set up the way I want them. I use them not because I am dependent on them but because I simply want things MY way and the game allows me to do so. The only crutch that exists with mods is the people who refuse to use them or hide behind them as an excuse for their poor play or poor play experience.

[Hive]

I just keep seeing people saying that mods are great because they take the info you already have and make it easier to use. They make boss fights easier. They make PvP easier. They make gathering easier. They make the AH easier.

Easier? You really need the game to be easier? Really?

If you're so hardcore then perhaps you should stop using a computer and do the math for yourself, walk to work/school instead of riding in a vehicle, build yourself a house instead of renting/buying one, farm your own food instead of going to the store...

Yes, i want my GAME to be fun and relaxing, not a second job where I'm miserable all the time. Do I want mods that play the game for me? No. But I do want the ones that let me adjust how I see the information I decide is most important.

[Dregu]

Then you get to fight against your UI because chances are you're going to want it to do something that the dev team overlooked.

That is certainly a possibility, but at least everyone is in the same boat. It is my opion that people who use mods have an advantage over people who don't use mods. I just want an even playing field. If that means learning how to adapt to a locked UI, then I am willing to do so in the spirit of fair competition.

[Loekii]

Yes, i want my GAME to be fun and relaxing, not a second job where I'm miserable all the time.

If the game is making you miserable, why play?

It is like saying you shouldn't have to dribble in basketball, because you feel it makes it a 2nd job. :confused:

The term '2nd job' is used to discuss the time commitments, not the difficulty level of a game.

[Retina]

If you're so hardcore then perhaps you should stop using a computer and do the math for yourself, walk to work/school instead of riding in a vehicle, build yourself a house instead of renting/buying one, farm your own food instead of going to the store...
You think the game that comes out of the box is hardcore? There's your problem. You should also reread what I said. I said easier not easy.

Yes, i want my GAME to be fun and relaxing...
Wait wait wait...you want WAR to be relaxing? Um, wrong game. Try something else.

[Organic]

So many people are assuming there will be an API and you'd code stuff in Lua. My question is: where did Mythic ever say that? I'd really like that link to that quote because I haven't seen it.

I believe they mentioned it in the recent dev chat. Also Warhammer is actually on the LUA site as far a uses are concerned (http://www.lua.org/uses.html#284). I know I've seen them say as much in videos, though I can't recall which one specifically.

[Hive]

If the game is making you miserable, why play?

It is like saying you shouldn't have to dribble in basketball, because you feel it makes it a 2nd job. :confused:

The term '2nd job' is used to discuss the time commitments, not the difficulty level of a game.



If keeping track of debuffs timers/auction house prices/etc using the default interface is tedious then yes, it's like a second job. Once you stop working at Mcdonalds you'll realize that some of us have enough multitasking to do in the real world, so if something can make an aspect our game a little smoother we're all for it.

You think the game that comes out of the box is hardcore? There's your problem. No, but I do find it clunky and unwieldy-- which is the whole point of mods in the first place, to set things up exactly how I want it.


Wait wait wait...you want WAR to be relaxing? Um, wrong game. Try something else. I find it quite relaxing to smash faces after a day of stress where I can't hit the people who annoy me. Maybe it's you who's looking at the wrong game.

[Retina]

I believe they mentioned it in the recent dev chat. Also Warhammer is actually on the LUA site as far a uses are concerned (http://www.lua.org/uses.html#284). I know I've seen them say as much in videos, though I can't recall which one specifically.
Thanks for finding this.

It looks like the debate is over: they're making it like WoW.

I'm not happy about this but I'll still play. Guess I'll just have to spend time chasing mods and versions and patch day hell, etc etc etc. sigh.

Edit: Actually, I want to clarify something: nothing on this earth or in the dark, wonderful recesses of the warp will keep me from playing WAR. My passion here is a reflection of my passion for the Warhammer universe which I've been playing in since Rogue Trader (which I still have and will never give up). So see you all in game, mods and all, for some head bashing, keep sieging, city demolishing fun!

[Hybrus]

95% of my mods in WoW revolve around moving and situating my UI where I want it. (which is simply for my style of play, doesn't really give me an advantage) and for my own aspects, such as my money, my bank, my guildmates, etc.

As far as castbars, sentry mods, _______class enhancements, etc, i found them more of a hindrance than a help. If you play looking at your UI the entire time, instead of your opponent/yourself/your surroundings, then that kinda defeats the whole thing, doesn't it? :|

[Gunter]

95% of my mods in WoW revolve around moving and situating my UI where I want it. (which is simply for my style of play, doesn't really give me an advantage) and for my own aspects, such as my money, my bank, my guildmates, etc.

As far as castbars, sentry mods, _______class enhancements, etc, i found them more of a hindrance than a help. If you play looking at your UI the entire time, instead of your opponent/yourself/your surroundings, then that kinda defeats the whole thing, doesn't it? :|

people who do that play to WIN not have fun. Well they onely have fun of they win. The only way they can win is if its easy to play. No skill required just mash a few buttong and i win. Thats what alot of the mods at least attempt to do. It took How long to get rid of the crutch of Decursive? Many "HC" gamers are only hardcore in the time in game. They only pick certian class witha specific build till next patch then its swich. same for mods.

Thats how I look at it. I hate most mods because they change the skill needed to play.

[Nerissa]

Many "HC" gamers are only hardcore in the time in game. They only pick certian class witha specific build till next patch then its swich.



There's 'hardcore', then there's hardcore.

'Hardcore' players are your typical min/maxer, will refuse to play anything but the most overpowered class.

Hardcore players make ANY class feel overpowered. They are simply good, and can make it despite the odds.

[Gunter]

There's 'hardcore', then there's hardcore.

'Hardcore' players are your typical min/maxer, will refuse to play anything but the most overpowered class.

Hardcore players make ANY class feel overpowered. They are simply good, and can make it despite the odds.

You are true on the min/maxers. But the people that usually brag on how hardcore they are are the kind I am refering to. Sorry Heavy Mod users are like Script Kiddies from my long ago hacking days.

[Nerissa]

I bet that the 'need' would never have surfaced if the mod never existed.


I am willing to bet you never raided MC or BWL. Here, I'll link a couple of noteworthy things for you.

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=19703 Lucifron's Curse.

Lucifron was the FIRST boss in MC. If you spend ANY time in there, you would have fought this guy, and you would know that he had a 45 yard range AOE debuff that he cast periodically that doubled the cost of all spells and abilities.

Maximum range in that game is 41 yards, only achieved by a hunter. This was put on the group en-masse, FORTY PEOPLE. And you had to get rid of this ASAP before it took a toll on your raid's mana.

Better yet, he had ANOTHER en-masse debuff that would do 2K damage to anyone in the raid that still had the debuff on them after 10 seconds.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Gehennas, the third boss in the same instance, has yet another 45 yard radius debuff. A curse that reduces the effects of healing spells by 75%.

Shazzrah, the fifth, had one that doubled the amount of magical damage you take. This one is yet another curse, and this boss would periodically blink to someone and cast Arcane Explosion. The debuffs had to be removed pronto.

Baron Geddon, a rather infamous boss for an entirely different ability, had yet another one of these lovely 45 yard radius debuffs, this time a Mana Burn DoT.



Are you quite getting the picture yet? The first raid instance of the game was filled with boss fights that enjoyed spamming debuffs on your raid THAT HAD TO BE REMOVED ASAP. THIS is why decursive was created. This was before the mouseover macro functionality had been introduced (said functionality was introduced in patch 2.0, the preparatory patch for the expansion), which would allow Grid + Clique to be just as fast as the old /Decursive.

[Gunter]

I am willing to bet you never raided MC or BWL. Here, I'll link a couple of noteworthy things for you.

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=19703 Lucifron's Curse.

Lucifron was the FIRST boss in MC. If you spend ANY time in there, you would have fought this guy, and you would know that he had a 45 yard range AOE debuff that he cast periodically that doubled the cost of all spells and abilities.

Maximum range in that game is 41 yards, only achieved by a hunter. This was put on the group en-masse, FORTY PEOPLE. And you had to get rid of this ASAP before it took a toll on your raid's mana.

Better yet, he had ANOTHER en-masse debuff that would do 2K damage to anyone in the raid that still had the debuff on them after 10 seconds.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Gehennas, the third boss in the same instance, has yet another 45 yard radius debuff. A curse that reduces the effects of healing spells by 75%.

Shazzrah, the fifth, had one that doubled the amount of magical damage you take. This one is yet another curse, and this boss would periodically blink to someone and cast Arcane Explosion. The debuffs had to be removed pronto.

Baron Geddon, a rather infamous boss for an entirely different ability, had yet another one of these lovely 45 yard radius debuffs, this time a Mana Burn DoT.



Are you quite getting the picture yet? The first raid instance of the game was filled with boss fights that enjoyed spamming debuffs on your raid THAT HAD TO BE REMOVED ASAP. THIS is why decursive was created. This was before the mouseover macro functionality had been introduced (said functionality was introduced in patch 2.0, the preparatory patch for the expansion), which would allow Grid + Clique to be just as fast as the old /Decursive.


Those fights were silly in that aspect. So you needed Decursive because of bad encounter design. But many guilds( mine included) did these fights before decursave became popular. It was not needed. It made them farmable. Thats the problem with mods. No startegy went forward once Decursive came out because it trivialized the fight. The fight was stupidly hard but they did not fix it partly because of decursive ( even though they said they were against it. lol )

[Aristae]

I am against any mods that tell you information that is not included in the default UI. I played many MMO's before WoW. WoW is the first game that I have played that has had more than aesthetic mods. There were mods in EQ and EQ2 that let you take information from windows that you had to hit buttons for (i.e. Stats) and put them on the "main" UI HUD. I really couldn't believe the extent that mods went in WoW. Raids mods.. that TIMED the AE's?! It took everything that I did in previous games that was a challenge... and threw it away. Trying to coordinate the raid to dodge/joust ae's. What happened to, "AE IN 10 SECONDS! GET OUT!"? Then threat meters to "max" dps.. where all you had to do is watch a window and stay below what it told you to... What happened to when you had to just guess and had to depend on the tank to do HIS/HER job... where if s/he didn't you would die. It was the fun that was in the game. Being able to actually watch your character and people around you do what they were doing. Another thing that I really didn't get was cartographer... not that it hindered gameplay for others... but... it took the point out of "harvesting"... it killed the value of any harvestable. Open up your map... fly from dot to dot to see if the nodes were up... it just made it too easy... exploration was killed.

It is just hard for me to comprehend that mods such as decursive was ever allowed.... what happened to having to communicate.. or having to pay attention to what is going on around you. You might as well play a turn based game if you are looking at that many windows. People say you didn't HAVE to have them, but you did. If you didn't have the mods you were not allowed to raid... and it made it such a grind fest. I had fun in Kara the first time I went... and I didn't want to do any raiding after that for the fact that... I didn't have to do anything but watch for my mods to call out the warnings, do dps, and watch my threat meter. Some people might say that it makes the game fun... but how is it fun if it isn't an accomplishment.... doing Kara was not an accomplishment. It was just to get gear so you were on par with EVERYONE else.

But to get back on topic here....

I hope they make the UI completely customizable... Numbers -> Percents and vice versa. Resizable windows... completely free moving. That would make ME completely happy. Anything more that is unnecessary. ;)

[Retina]

MC in WoW was the end game for a long time. It's supposed to be hard. It's supposed to be grueling. Our guild raided it without addons for quite a while. It was tough, but that was the point. These encounters were not designed badly, they were designed to be brutally hard. You shouldn't be in there unless you're really ready.

Addons take all the challenge out of it and that is truly pathetic.

I bet that for the majority of the "pro-addon" crowd here WoW is their first and only MMO. I'll further bet that they have only played WoW for the last year or so, but definitely not since launch. This is where this "gotta have addons" attitude comes from and only this. No other game operates like that. You say that addons are so important, yet only one MMO uses them. There's a reason for that: it dumbs down the game. WoW used to have a difficulty curve. Not any more.

This is why I don't want those kinds of addons in WAR. I want it to be hard, brutally hard like the Warhammer universe is. I want it to leave people crying after being defeated on the Bastion Stair, their bodies mangled and broken.
It should hurt.

[Loekii]

This is why I don't want those kinds of addons in WAR. I want it to be hard, brutally hard like the Warhammer universe is. I want it to leave people crying after being defeated on the Bastion Stair, their bodies mangled and broken.
It should hurt.

I agree.

Mods should not make the game 'easier' in terms of difficulty, effort, required keystrokes, etc.

[flipper]

Mods are pointless if they do anything other then athseticly change the game.
Example:
Threat meters in wow, at first nobody used them, it took a certain amount of skill to guess how much threat the tank was doing and how much you could dps the target.
Then threat meters came and you could see exactly how much threat you had compaired to the tank if you used it.
This results in everyone who min-maxes their char being forced to use threat meters in order to optimize performance and be on par with the others.
Of course once everyone has the meter your all back to square one fighting equally in a slightly more tard friendly enviroment. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS IT TAKES UP MORE RAM.
In wow by the end i was using at least 15 different mods draining an insane ammount of my computers ram.
So much so that i lost 15 fps with mods on comared to without, but i still played better in the slow motion easymode then i did in the speeded up hard mode, sad really.
Mods=waste of space.

[Nerissa]

These encounters were not designed badly, they were designed to be brutally hard. You shouldn't be in there unless you're really ready.




Amazing how people will defend horrid encounter design by saying it was 'hard'.


Ragnoros was hard. Lucifron was a test of how fast you could click someone then click your dispel bind.


Ho hum.

[Loekii]

Amazing how people will defend horrid encounter design by saying it was 'hard'.

Ragnoros was hard. Lucifron was a test of how fast you could click someone then click your dispel bind.

Ho hum.

And people were able to both target and cast 'dispell'.

They were able to display the skill at doing both tasks, rather than being dependent on the computer doing it for them.

It is only a 'bad design' for those players looking for a game that requires less skill.

It is an acceptable design for those players that enjoy using such skills.

No need to be insulting. It is simply designed for a different type of gamer.

[Hrafn]

The only mods allowable should be display mods for your UI layout and perhaps HUD's. (Loved using HUDs in WoW.)

Counters/Boss warnings etc shouldn't be included unless Mythic includes them. It takes a lot of the skill out of the encounters when you are warned that "You are the bomb" or have a counter saying that you have 30secs to cap your AV flag.

[Nerissa]

They were able to display the skill at doing both tasks, rather than being dependent on the computer doing it for them.



Anyone who was worth a damn wasn't "dependant" upon the mod.....


It just made things a lot simpler. Just like the mouseover macro function, which accompanied the elimination of old decursive, made mass decursing simpler. (How does this macro function? Simple, you hit the bind and you cast the spell on whoever's name you have your mouse pointer on in your raid UI)

More importantly, it made it repeatable without wanting to bash your brains out with a brick. A golden brick with a lemon wrapped around it.

The encounter design WAS bad and much hated by the players, including the hardcore raiders. Later raid design showed that it was indeed possible to make raids hard without needing to brute-force the raid with mass debuffs.

Later encounters were much more dynamic and far more enjoyable on the whole. If ZG had provided loot on par with MC with as much depth of itemization, I doubt anyone would have run MC after ZG's introduction. The fights there were simply more fun. As it stood, to get to BWL, you had to farm MC to death. And so on.

The only mods allowable should be display mods for your UI layout and perhaps HUD's. (Loved using HUDs in WoW.)

Counters/Boss warnings etc shouldn't be included unless Mythic includes them. It takes a lot of the skill out of the encounters when you are warned that "You are the bomb" or have a counter saying that you have 30secs to cap your AV flag.

Timers will likely never be elminated.

Why?

Because they are based off of static data. Essentially, a combat log message tells the program to start a stopwatch. The length of time the stopwatch counts down for is the timer for whatever it is that PLAYERS have tested.

You can't eliminate the combat log messages, because the mod can simply use ones that contain necessary data. [You were affected by Boss X's ability] [X has assaulted the Mine]

You could try to break combat log parsing, but that would be rather annoying and could potentially break your own Scrolling Combat Text function. (It relies on its ability to 'read' the combat log in order to display damage dealt, taken, etc.)

There's no other function to break. In large part, timer mods are very self-contained.

[Loekii]

It is simply a difference in opinions.

You see it as making thing simpler.

I see it as 'dumbing down the game' and removing challenge.

[Nerissa]

I see it as 'dumbing down the game' and removing challenge.







When you have an encounter on farm, WHAT is the challenge?

You've beaten it. You've beaten it multiple times. You could likely beat it blindfolded. At this point you are only doing it because you need the shiny pieces of loot that the boss could potentially drop in order to make progress in the next dungeon.


Anything that makes that process simpler is very very welcome indeed. WoW post expansion isn't bad about it, but pre-BC was terrible about how much you needed to farm a raid dungeon before you could progress to the next one and make a decent amount of forward progress.

[Hive]

MC in WoW was the end game for a long time. It's supposed to be hard. It's supposed to be grueling. Our guild raided it without addons for quite a while. It was tough, but that was the point. These encounters were not designed badly, they were designed to be brutally hard. You shouldn't be in there unless you're really ready.
Calm down there iron man, being unable to realize there are better ways of doing things is nothing to thump your chest about. If I wanted to put a nail in a board I'd use a hammer instead of my forehead like your and your guildmates.

Addons take all the challenge out of it and that is truly pathetic.
Not evolving to use the tools available is more pathetic in my book.


I bet that for the majority of the "pro-addon" crowd here WoW is their first and only MMO. I'll further bet that they have only played WoW for the last year or so, but definitely not since launch. This is where this "gotta have addons" attitude comes from and only this. No other game operates like that. You say that addons are so important, yet only one MMO uses them. There's a reason for that: it dumbs down the game. WoW used to have a difficulty curve. Not any more.
For the record, I played EQ, MxO, L2 (admittitedly for only a few months), and WoW from about 6 months after release until recently. I was there when there were few working addon's to make raids go more smoothly, I was one of those guys who was banging his head on the keyboard at the 1% wipe because some rogue over aggroed or a fellow healer missed a decurse.

If WoW has no difficulty curve why are there so few guilds doing the cutting edge content, even post "easymode" mods and repeated content nerfs? Judging by your inability to adapt I'd say you are one of those people who held everyone else back because you had to do things "the hard way", and even then I'd say you played an loldps class-- because every healer and tank who is worth a crap is thankful for mods that made their experience more fun.

This is why I don't want those kinds of addons in WAR. I want it to be hard, brutally hard like the Warhammer universe is. I want it to leave people crying after being defeated on the Bastion Stair, their bodies mangled and broken.
It should hurt.
So don't use them. You can be captain hardcore and everyone will praise your "leet" skills. :rolleyes:

[Aristae]

Quote:
This is why I don't want those kinds of addons in WAR. I want it to be hard, brutally hard like the Warhammer universe is. I want it to leave people crying after being defeated on the Bastion Stair, their bodies mangled and broken.
It should hurt.
So don't use them. You can be captain hardcore and everyone will praise your "leet" skills. :rolleyes:That is not the point in the matter. The point is dumbing down the encounter by using a third-party program to tell you what is going to happen. I don't care if the mob is on farm... you might as well just put in a "/kill" button if you use boss mods. There is NO challenge.. at all. If you can follow instructions you can kill any encounter in the game instead of trying to use the same skill as the first people who killed it.... Yes.. I am saying that it takes no skill to use boss mods.

And on to Decursive... it is still a program that tells you who has an ailment on them. All you have to do is click on button... you don't even have to look at what kind or who the debuff is on.... How is that YOU doing any work?

I just feel that games have been dumbed down way too much... and people are jumping on the... "Oh I killed it once... that means we should beable to kill it everytime. Bring out the addonz!" bandwagon. It just is demoralizing... coming from EQ and EQ2 where you had to figure out or had to coordinate with the raid what had to be done, imo. Where you actually had to pay attention. Where yes... if you had 1 person screw up it could wipe you... that is why it was hard to be a raiding guild... that is why it felt like an accomplishment when you did beat an encounter.


Quote:
Addons take all the challenge out of it and that is truly pathetic.
Not evolving to use the tools available is more pathetic in my book.So completely taking out the challenge of the encounter isn't pathetic? It is hard to say something like that unless you take a look at both sides of the fence. I can see where people do want the add-ons.. to make their lives easier... but "Not evolving to use the tools available" is a rediculous statement. It isn't as much evolving as simply going on the internet and downloading a program that tells you what to do in a game that should take concentration and skill to play. I know that my opinion is biased towards having no add-ons (obviously). I just feel that saying that you deserve to trivialize bosses.. or curing... because you know how to do it is just non-sense.

[flipper]

Fact of the matter is any way you argue it the game developers should be the ones who decide how difficult encounters are, not the people who write addons.

[Nerissa]

Fact of the matter is any way you argue it the game developers should be the ones who decide how difficult encounters are, not the people who write addons.


Given how hastily the encounter design in MC was abandoned (Chromaggus in BWL was its 'last hurrah' of sorts), I imagine that developers can always stand to learn what is enjoyable and what is not. Decursing an entire 40 man raid from fight start to fight finish was not a very enjoyable experience.

[Retina]

Calm down there iron man, being unable to realize there are better ways of doing things is nothing to thump your chest about.
parse error

I was one of those guys who was banging his head on the keyboard at the 1% wipe because some rogue over aggroed or a fellow healer missed a decurse.
The fact that you remember and relate that incident shows how memorable the encounter was. If it was easy would you really remember it? Thanks for making my point.

Decursing an entire 40 man raid from fight start to fight finish was not a very enjoyable experience.
Maybe it's just me, but that sounds like you were playing the wrong class if it wasn't fun. Plenty of healers and such in our guild had tons of fun doing that. But everyone is different. I could never do that as that's not my cup of tea and I wouldn't find it fun either.

[Hive]

The fact that you remember and relate that incident shows how memorable the encounter was. If it was easy would you really remember it? Thanks for making my point.
Decursing 40 mans is not one of my fondest memories, in fact I still have nightmares about it. If you want to go for real memories and moments of pride I'd go with downing Vashj for the first time after months of attempts, or hearing C'thun tell me my heart will explode. Both of those fights were beyond difficult even with the help of mods, and I'm willing to bet you've never seen either of them.


Maybe it's just me, but that sounds like you were playing the wrong class if it wasn't fun. Plenty of healers and such in our guild had tons of fun doing that. But everyone is different. I could never do that as that's not my cup of tea and I wouldn't find it fun either. Play a healer for awhile and you'll change your tune about mods. Guaranteed.

[flipper]

Regardless of if you find it fun or not the fight was designed to be a heavy decurse/dispell encounter which required skill and coordination to acheive.
Are you really saying its your place to put your own difficulty slider in the game?
Such things should fall on the developers and nobody else.

[ZeppelinJ0]

Mods were ok when they added small but helpful little utilities.

After awhile in WoW you could basically jam one key repeatedly until your keyboard wears out and that one key would play your entire class/Raid for you... Well ok thats a bit overexaggerated, but we're talking about having our hands held through a game which already holds our hand through just about everything.

I don't want to have mods to the point where i'm actually REQUIRED to have certain mods to compete, or REQUIRED to have a certain mod by my guild to participate is guild event. Some of you will argue my guild is to blame, but 99% of guilds were like this in Warcraft.

[Loekii]

Play a healer for awhile and you'll change your tune about mods. Guaranteed.

I *do* play healers, and I completely disagree with your opinion.

I did not find it chore, burden, nor did I feel I 'needed' healing mods to play the game for me.

Again, appears this is more a difference of opinion, than your rude insistence that only our opinion can be valid.

[Pangscar]

I *do* play healers, and I completely disagree with your opinion.

I did not find it chore, burden, nor did I feel I 'needed' healing mods to play the game for me.

Again, appears this is more a difference of opinion, than your rude insistence that only our opinion can be valid.



Well seeing as how you insist on thinking mods play the game for you then yes I would say his and anyone else's opinion IS more valid then yours. I can see why your against some mods when you don't even fully understand how they work. Mods will be in the game, no matter how much protesting or exaggerating you minority of people do.

For the last time, all they do is give you already available information and put in it customizable form. They don't play the game for you, they don't make it easy mode. To think otherwise is to not know or understand what you are talking about.

[Eisenban]

I think a lot of people confuse mods with botting.

[pewpewarrows]

I *do* play healers, and I completely disagree with your opinion.

I did not find it chore, burden, nor did I feel I 'needed' healing mods to play the game for me.

Again, appears this is more a difference of opinion, than your rude insistence that only our opinion can be valid.



Healing mods don't play the game for you. They take existing information available in the default UI and reskin it in a more accessible form that is easier on the eyes.

God forbid someone doesn't like the default way of doing things. Different != better. Difference in this case allows the game to mold itself into individual users. Much like Mozilla Firefox. The beauty of that software is not the nice web browser it has by default. It is instead its ability to be extended and customized however a user sees fit.

[Loekii]

I think a lot of people confuse mods with botting.

I think people see that mods can be used for botting.

However, a lot of the critics of mods in this thread are based around mods playing the game for you (choosing who to heal and with what spell, sniffing data from information and displaying it in an unintended form, changing the way the game works to grant advantage over someone that is not using the same mod, etc).

People like to play games on a more level playing field. It is like playing poker in a casino, where they prevent people from using all sorts of 'mods' to enhance their gameplay.

We don't want to play a poker game where people are hiding mirrors, marking cards, using a computer to count cards, etc.

[flipper]

I think a lot of people confuse mods with botting.
A bot by definition is somthing that performs actions in game without the player pressing a button.
For example targetting a player that needs dispelling.
So mods can be bots yes.

[ZeppelinJ0]

I think a lot of people confuse mods with botting.

I think a lot of the mods ARE borderline botting.

The player should be playing the game, not jamming a key to play the game for them.

[Pangscar]

A bot by definition is somthing that performs actions in game without the player pressing a button.
For example targetting a player that needs dispelling.
So mods can be bots yes.


umm no. If a mod does like your example it is not allowed in game. Mods do not and can not do anything for you. All they do is make it so you can do it you way. You still have to push as many buttons and interact just as much you can just do it in a different way.

So no mods can not be bots.

[Gunter]

Well seeing as how you insist on thinking mods play the game for you then yes I would say his and anyone else's opinion IS more valid then yours. I can see why your against some mods when you don't even fully understand how they work. Mods will be in the game, no matter how much protesting or exaggerating you minority of people do.

For the last time, all they do is give you already available information and put in it customizable form. They don't play the game for you, they don't make it easy mode. To think otherwise is to not know or understand what you are talking about.

Those mods are not popular. People do not want informatiuon they want streamlining. They want easier controls. They want an advantage. Sorry I have see too many times mods make things trivial and easy. One of the reason raids got boring is that in a 40 man raid only about 10 people have to pay attention and the rest hit thir mod.

Encounters need to be made that do nto need mods to be successful. Changing arround teh UI cool. Bringing info that is buried to the fore, cool. Letting you start to autiomate ANY action, not cool. I have seen too many mods over the years that target for you, select spells for you and so forth. This is what I hate with mods. I hoep Mythic does not allow stuff like that at all.

[Gunter]

umm no. If a mod does like your example it is not allowed in game. Mods do not and can not do anything for you. All they do is make it so you can do it you way. You still have to push as many buttons and interact just as much you can just do it in a different way.

So no mods can not be bots.
Agree that is not a bot. It is a cheat and makes it so you do not have to pay attention or play just mash a button. I hate that.

[Pangscar]

Those mods are not popular. People do not want informatiuon they want streamlining. They want easier controls. They want an advantage. Sorry I have see too many times mods make things trivial and easy. One of the reason raids got boring is that in a 40 man raid only about 10 people have to pay attention and the rest hit thir mod.

Encounters need to be made that do nto need mods to be successful. Changing arround teh UI cool. Bringing info that is buried to the fore, cool. Letting you start to autiomate ANY action, not cool. I have seen too many mods over the years that target for you, select spells for you and so forth. This is what I hate with mods. I hoep Mythic does not allow stuff like that at all.


and those mods you refer to get systematically broken by the devs time after time. If a mod plays the game for you it is simply not allowed to work or it is soon shut down. What I hate is people using outdated examples as to why current mods shouldn't be allowed. You refer to 40-man raids so I can assume your experience and knowledge about about the current state of mods is outdated so you can rest assured there will be not mods playing the game for you in WAR.

[pewpewarrows]

It's quite funny to see the level of ignorance many people have about mods in this thread.

I hope you all realize that the game interface API, when done correctly like WoW's, does NOT allow any mod, macro, or script to do ANYTHING for you. They may not target, they may not cast spells or use abilities, they may not push buttons for you.

All they do is take existing information, and present it on-screen in a unique or intuitive way. It may go so far as to tell you who needs a heal, and what heal would work best on them, but you yourself as a player must go target that person, and click your ability to cast your spell. That mod would be taking a health bar, and reskinning it into a text warning, for those players who prefer text to bars.

Stop screaming bloody murder simply because you don't understand or are gravely misinformed about how mods work.

[Gunter]

and those mods you refer to get systematically broken by the devs time after time. If a mod plays the game for you it is simply not allowed to work or it is soon shut down. What I hate is people using outdated examples as to why current mods shouldn't be allowed. You refer to 40-man raids so I can assume your experience and knowledge about about the current state of mods is outdated so you can rest assured there will be not mods playing the game for you in WAR.

Programmers will find a way. Happens all the time. I refer back to 40 man raids because thats where the power creap starts. Add its so large of an example. I hear all the time on forums of people getting banned for useing automating mods so they re still there. It was so easy to get Tier1 then Tier 2 becauss of mods. That starts teh have and have nots. They then remove te mods from the game and now people cannot get the stuff as easy so they fall behind.

They need to stop it in the beginning so there is no lasting imballance like in WoW.

[Aristae]

It may go so far as to tell you who needs a heal, and what heal would work best on them, but you yourself as a player must go target that person, and click your ability to cast your spell. That mod would be taking a health bar, and reskinning it into a text warning, for those players who prefer text to bars.

Taking the skill out of the game? exactly...

[Loekii]

All they do is take existing information, and present it on-screen in a unique or intuitive way. It may go so far as to tell you who needs a heal, and what heal would work best on them, but you yourself as a player must go target that person, and click your ability to cast your spell. That mod would be taking a health bar, and reskinning it into a text warning, for those players who prefer text to bars.


This is exactly what we do not want mods to do.

We don't want mods telling you 'who needs healing'.
-- The player needs to make that choice (and risk choosing the wrong player at the wrong time)

We don't want mods telling you 'what heal works best for them'.
-- The player needs to make that choice (and risk choosing the wrong cure, over heal, underheal, etc).

We don't want mods changing the simply 'health bar', into a flashing Alarm of Text
-- The player needs to interprite the Health Bar (and run the risk of misreading it, underestimating how much they have left, etc).

These are examples of 'playing the game for you'. It is like telling you when to hit and when to hold, move what chess piece where and when, etc. All of which would get you removed from real world games.

Rather than spouting how 'misinformed' we all are, you should make sure you are properly understanding the criticms.

[Pangscar]

This is exactly what we do not want mods to do.

We don't want mods telling you 'who needs healing'.
-- The player needs to make that choice (and risk choosing the wrong player at the wrong time)

We don't want mods telling you 'what heal works best for them'.
-- The player needs to make that choice (and risk choosing the wrong cure, over heal, underheal, etc).

We don't want mods changing the simply 'health bar', into a flashing Alarm of Text
-- The player needs to interprite the Health Bar (and run the risk of misreading it, underestimating how much they have left, etc).

These are examples of 'playing the game for you'. It is like telling you when to hit and when to hold, move what chess piece where and when, etc. All of which would get you removed from real world games.

Rather than spouting how 'misinformed' we all are, you should make sure you are properly understanding the criticms.



By your posts you clearly show how misinformed you are. "Playing the game for you" refers to when mods target and cast spells w/o you doing anything. These types of mods are not allowed and do not work in the games. Stop twisting phrases and examples to try and prove you shallow point. It only shows your desperation and ignorance on the subject.

[Aristae]

By your posts you clearly show how misinformed you are. "Playing the game for you" refers to when mods target and cast spells w/o you doing anything. These types of mods are not allowed and do not work in the games. Stop twisting phrases and examples to try and prove you shallow point. It only shows your desperation and ignorance on the subject.

Again... lets take what you said.

It may go so far as to tell you who needs a heal, and what heal would work best on them, but you yourself as a player must go target that person, and click your ability to cast your spell. That mod would be taking a health bar, and reskinning it into a text warning, for those players who prefer text to bars.

Lets say someone has this mod... how does it take any skill to look at text and do what it tells you... rather than figuring out for yourself which spells to cast and when? It is just something that is unnecessary and gives them the upper hand. How is it fair for people to figure out how to play their class.. to know when and what heals to cast... when people don't have to do anything but following what their text is telling them by downloading a program? It is just information that should not be revealed if you cannot see it without the mod... which some people can't. Have you ever played WoW after a patch? where all mods are out of date? I wish I could've got some screen shots of what people were saying in general... or have you ever done a PUG when all the mods aren't updated? It is disgusting at how dependent people became on these things.... wether you say it is dependency or not.

[Gunter]

By your posts you clearly show how misinformed you are. "Playing the game for you" refers to when mods target and cast spells w/o you doing anything. These types of mods are not allowed and do not work in the games. Stop twisting phrases and examples to try and prove you shallow point. It only shows your desperation and ignorance on the subject.

No what she is discribing is playing for you. Its just not pushing the button for you also. It makes decisiosn for you. ie. this person needs to be healed...thats a decision that you as the player should make, Not a mod. Information is good. Decisions are bad. It does not need to activate something to be playing for you.

[Chasington]

By your posts you clearly show how misinformed you are. "Playing the game for you" refers to when mods target and cast spells w/o you doing anything. These types of mods are not allowed and do not work in the games. Stop twisting phrases and examples to try and prove you shallow point. It only shows your desperation and ignorance on the subject.

Insults aside... they're not saying we don't want mods playing for us (well we don't want that either but that's not what they're saying) But displaying all information and taking any choice out of the game is essentially the same thing as playing the game for us.

[Loekii]

It makes decisiosn for you. ie. this person needs to be healed...thats a decision that you as the player should make, Not a mod. Information is good. Decisions are bad. It does not need to activate something to be playing for you.

Precisely.

"Playing" these games are more than simply physically pushing a button.

Decision making is a HUGE part of playing these games.

Choosing who and when to heal, what is the most effective and efficient heal, etc is playing the game.

[ZeppelinJ0]

I agree 100% with what Loekii is saying and understand completely what he means when he says playing the game for you.

And just to throw this in there, I remember a guild I was in on my priest and they had me download a mod that would HEAL FOR ME. I'm not kidding you, i bound the key to backspace and when I pushed backspace it would automatically cast a heal on a target within the raid that had the lowest HP and would scale the level or type of heal back to minimize mana usage (like it would cast a low rank flash heal on somebody missing only like 200 hp). I pressed backspace for a long time before I quit the game. I'll attempt to find the mod for you, but i'm not joking about this. It was available on curse-gaming and definitely was not a hack.


The players should decide the outcome of a battle. There should be no 5 second warnings that DoomGod of Fire is about to unleash an AE attack, no ringing gong and bells and whistles that 6 people need to get a cure disease, the content of the game should not be trivialized by mods!

[EDIT] OH! and Damage Meters, keep these the mother eff out of this game, people place way too much emphasis on topping the charts then accomplishing the objective and a lot of people equate skill with damage meters. Hell no thanks.

[pewpewarrows]

I agree 100% with what Loekii is saying and understand completely what he means when he says playing the game for you.

And just to throw this in there, I remember a guild I was in on my priest and they had me download a mod that would HEAL FOR ME. I'm not kidding you, i bound the key to backspace and when I pushed backspace it would automatically cast a heal on a target within the raid that had the lowest HP and would scale the level or type of heal back to minimize mana usage (like it would cast a low rank flash heal on somebody missing only like 200 hp). I pressed backspace for a long time before I quit the game. I'll attempt to find the mod for you, but i'm not joking about this. It was available on curse-gaming and definitely was not a hack.


The players should decide the outcome of a battle. There should be no 5 second warnings that DoomGod of Fire is about to unleash an AE attack, no ringing gong and bells and whistles that 6 people need to get a cure disease, the content of the game should not be trivialized by mods!

[EDIT] OH! and Damage Meters, keep these the mother eff out of this game, people place way too much emphasis on topping the charts then accomplishing the objective and a lot of people equate skill with damage meters. Hell no thanks.

I'd appreciate you linking to that mod or giving us any more information about it. I've never heard of something like that being available. I would also like to publicly state that I am firmly against these kinds of addons. No mod should be able to target or cast a spell for you, or choose what spell to cast and auto-bind to a single key for you to press.

Displaying information available from the default UI in a different manner ("skinning") is, however, fine. Some gamers prefer auditory information as opposed to visual. Why shouldn't there be a mod available to play a *ding* when a player gets a disease? It's just using a different human sense to provide identical information. One form is not inherently better than another, and will not provide any advantage.

[flipper]

umm no. If a mod does like your example it is not allowed in game. Mods do not and can not do anything for you. All they do is make it so you can do it you way. You still have to push as many buttons and interact just as much you can just do it in a different way.

So no mods can not be bots.
In wow there was mods called decursive that targetted people who needed to be dispelled and dispelled them in one button push.
There was another mod that automaticly chugged potions for you when you where below a certain % hp
And another mod back before it was broken by blizzard that could make your character run to set points without you having to control it.
There was another mod that expanded the macro system to a lengh where you could macro all your abilitys onto one cast sequence button and bash your head off the spacebar to raid.
Hell theres even mods that let you see your oponents spec when you target them in arena, i guess it just reads armory but thats a HUGE advantage for anyone who knows how to use it.
My point is mods in some games go too far into playing the game for you, they make the game easier and whenever somthing is making the game easier in a way unintended by devs it shouldn't be allowed.

[pewpewarrows]

In wow there was mods called decursive that targetted people who needed to be dispelled and dispelled them in one button push.
There was another mod that automaticly chugged potions for you when you where below a certain % hp
And another mod back before it was broken by blizzard that could make your character run to set points without you having to control it.
There was another mod that expanded the macro system to a lengh where you could macro all your abilitys onto one cast sequence button and bash your head off the spacebar to raid.
Hell theres even mods that let you see your oponents spec when you target them in arena, i guess it just reads armory but thats a HUGE advantage for anyone who knows how to use it.
My point is mods in some games go too far into playing the game for you, they make the game easier and whenever somthing is making the game easier in a way unintended by devs it shouldn't be allowed.

Those are all very good examples of mods that should not be allowed.

However, don't punish everyone for the unethical actions of a few. Update the API often. Mythic has proven to be very good about player feedback. They'll patch the API to prevent these things as soon as it's proven possible. I will personally report any API functions or combinations that I feel give mod authors too much power, along with suggestions for preventing unfair advantages.

But like I said, don't punish the entire community based on actions of a select few.

[ZeppelinJ0]

heres the mod, its called AutoHeal (it says party member, worked on raids though)... If this isn't playing for you I dont know what is (this is pre WoW 2.0 of course though):)

http://wowui.worldofwar.net/?p=mod&m=548

[Gunter]

I'd appreciate you linking to that mod or giving us any more information about it. I've never heard of something like that being available. I would also like to publicly state that I am firmly against these kinds of addons. No mod should be able to target or cast a spell for you, or choose what spell to cast and auto-bind to a single key for you to press.

Displaying information available from the default UI in a different manner ("skinning") is, however, fine. Some gamers prefer auditory information as opposed to visual. Why shouldn't there be a mod available to play a *ding* when a player gets a disease? It's just using a different human sense to provide identical information. One form is not inherently better than another, and will not provide any advantage.

If there is a combat log entry when that happens then I see no problem with it. The disease ding I mean. Thats like a player saying I have a disease ( which is the method I prefer, but if there is a general indicator of it then a sound is as fgood as a combat log entry)

[Loekii]

mods called decursive that targetted people who needed to be dispelled and dispelled them in one button push.
There was another mod that automaticly chugged potions for you when you where below a certain % hp
And another mod back before it was broken by blizzard that could make your character run to set points without you having to control it.
There was another mod that expanded the macro system to a lengh where you could macro all your abilitys onto one cast sequence button and bash your head off the spacebar to raid.
Hell theres even mods that let you see your oponents spec when you target them in arena


[edited formatting to emphasis point]

All excellent examples of mods that 'play the game' for you, and 'provide things the NOT provided by the Default UI.

[Loekii]

Displaying information available from the default UI in a different manner ("skinning") is, however, fine. Some gamers prefer auditory information as opposed to visual. Why shouldn't there be a mod available to play a *ding* when a player gets a disease? It's just using a different human sense to provide identical information. One form is not inherently better than another, and will not provide any advantage.

The key is that it is identical and not enhanced information, per se.

As you said, so long as it does provide any real advantage, then it is okay. I basically agree.

It is something that needs to be treaded upon lightly, as it can quickly be abused - For example: sniffing combat text, seeing a spell name, referencing the game timer, and then turning it into an enemy casting bar timer, when the default UI does not provide an 'enemy Casting Bar timer'.

[Pangscar]

heres the mod, its called AutoHeal (it says party member, worked on raids though)... If this isn't playing for you I dont know what is (this is pre WoW 2.0 of course though):)

http://wowui.worldofwar.net/?p=mod&m=548



I fail to see your point. That mod is 2+ years old and is no longer able to function in game.(and rightfully so)

See this is the exact reason I keep posting here, not because I am mod fan #1 and think they are gods gifts. No, because people keep using antiquated examples of mods that went to far and where then disallowed, to prove their points on ALL mods. If you can show me any CURRENT mods that go to far I'll change my tune but fact is you can't cause they don't exist. and by go to far I mean break the rules of the game. exploit etc not just do things you don't agree with.

Mods that give you ALREADY AVAILABLE information DO NOT play the game for you. Its just pure ignorance to think otherwise.

[pewpewarrows]

The key is that it is identical and not enhanced information, per se.

As you said, so long as it does provide any real advantage, then it is okay. I basically agree.

It is something that needs to be treaded upon lightly, as it can quickly be abused - For example: sniffing combat text, seeing a spell name, referencing the game timer, and then turning it into an enemy casting bar timer, when the default UI does not provide an 'enemy Casting Bar timer'.

Then we agree on that point, at least ;) I certainly don't want to see Enemy Cast Bars, and should hope that the combat log doesn't display an enemy cast event. I feel the game would be much more strategic and fun without them.

Anywho, to get this thread back to a more civilized pace, I don't personally believe that we'll experience even a fraction of the inappropriate mods as compared to a game like WoW. Seeing as abilities are set-up quite differently, and that skills auto train-up, disallowing access to lower ranked spells, I don't believe we shall be seeing any "auto-heal" mods crop up.

As for raiding mods. From what I've been able to glean from Mythic, they are designing all of their "raid boss" encounters as a dichotomy to WoW's. While in WoW every single boss has a set repertoire of abilities it would absolutely and predictibly use on exact timers, I believe WAR devs have stated that is the exact opposite of how they're designing. Given the fact that enemy casts will not be available to players, I see raid encounters as being much more strategy-oriented. With no cast bars to show you what's coming, and no timers to rely on to predict when a spell might be coming, it'll force everyone to be on their toes and play to the max to win. Those two elements would also prevent any "DeadlyBossMods" or dumb-down raid mods of the sorts, since enemy cast events and ability timers won't be in those fights.

[pewpewarrows]

heres the mod, its called AutoHeal (it says party member, worked on raids though)... If this isn't playing for you I dont know what is (this is pre WoW 2.0 of course though):)

http://wowui.worldofwar.net/?p=mod&m=548

That mod is over 3 years old and is a perfect example of what a poorly written user interface API will allow. Blizzard has long since corrected those mistakes, as I'm sure Mythic is well aware of when they were designing theirs.

As Pangscar said before me, I would prefer this conversation steer towards the present-day API and mods for discussion.

[flipper]

Those are all very good examples of mods that should not be allowed.

However, don't punish everyone for the unethical actions of a few. Update the API often. Mythic has proven to be very good about player feedback. They'll patch the API to prevent these things as soon as it's proven possible. I will personally report any API functions or combinations that I feel give mod authors too much power, along with suggestions for preventing unfair advantages.

But like I said, don't punish the entire community based on actions of a select few.
of course, mods should be allowed i agree.
I'm just saying there should never be a mod that everyone MUST have to perform well.

[Gunter]

That mod is over 3 years old and is a perfect example of what a poorly written user interface API will allow. Blizzard has long since corrected those mistakes, as I'm sure Mythic is well aware of when they were designing theirs.

As Pangscar said before me, I would prefer this conversation steer towards the present-day API and mods for discussion.

That auto heal mod took about a year if I remember cporrectly to fix. How many people had a huge advantage from exploiting the UI. Exploits are cheats. It was not intended. Just cuse you can does not make it a cheat.

[Retina]

Anywho, to get this thread back to a more civilized pace
Yes, please! It's getting close to (and in some cases past) being too personal in here.

[ZeppelinJ0]

My point was that the mod existed, certainly long enough where I (was required) to use it up to the moment I quit. DAoC on the other hand had no such mods, and I know you'll argue the age of the game, but it still doesn't have such mods and everyone plays and loves that game just fine!

I'm not against mods, I like UI modifications, new themes, little things that make the game more enjoyable [dwarf speak mod plz], but automating processes in the game starts to cross the line. That's ultimately what got me off playing WoW was it was basically a no-brainer, mechanical play-style of gear grinding... People were designing these mods to remove or circumvent the skilled portions of the game to allow people easier and faster access to gear... gear gear gear gear gear! Hell I can't even recall what some of the raid mobs and bosses LOOK like because I probably never saw them, since all you were really doing is paying attention to numbers, bells, dings, bars and alerts.

It's a total immersion killer when this super-badass looking boss is simplified by mods to simple timers and alerts... Something like "Wow that boss is AWESOME but so tough, he totally wastes everybody with an AE fire explosion every so often!!" turns in to: *DING DING DING DING "ok guys 5 seconds, move back toward the star target... GREGORZ I SAID MOVE!!!" it's just a total immersion killer and marginalizes the effect that certain mob is designed to create

We're no longer playing a game, we're just trying to make better numbers. But then again, when it's only gear we care about, who cares right?

I'm afraid WAR will dip its feet too much in to the WoW pool as far as the UI mod freedom goes which might signify that they are hoping to rope in the same gear-grinding addicted people to their own game in hopes to pump out insane subscription numbers!

I'm not a mod HATER guys, but I don't think spoonfeeding every morsel of information on to the screen so no thinking is required is a mod, it's a botsploit :P.

The fact of the matter is if this game is as good as it's claimed to be, it won't need third-party mods to make it more enjoyable.

[flipper]

Yes, please! It's getting close to (and in some cases past) being too personal in here.
Always does when you get a couple of stuborn people who wouldn't change their oppinions if you presented them a 100 page document of indisputable proof arguing with each other.

[Loekii]

As for raiding mods. From what I've been able to glean from Mythic, they are designing all of their "raid boss" encounters as a dichotomy to WoW's. While in WoW every single boss has a set repertoire of abilities it would absolutely and predictibly use on exact timers, I believe WAR devs have stated that is the exact opposite of how they're designing. Given the fact that enemy casts will not be available to players, I see raid encounters as being much more strategy-oriented. With no cast bars to show you what's coming, and no timers to rely on to predict when a spell might be coming, it'll force everyone to be on their toes and play to the max to win. Those two elements would also prevent any "DeadlyBossMods" or dumb-down raid mods of the sorts, since enemy cast events and ability timers won't be in those fights.

Hopefully you are correct.

As for Boss Mobs, I really hope they create wide scripts for them as well. I don't want to see recognizable 'player careers' attached to Boss Mobs. Being AI, they should get all the help they can, especially more randomness in the limits to their abilities (I would love to see 10 'different' Versions of the same Boss Mob in say 10 encounters with it).

[Gunter]

Hopefully you are correct.

As for Boss Mobs, I really hope they create wide scripts for them as well. I don't want to see recognizable 'player careers' attached to Boss Mobs. Being AI, they should get all the help they can, especially more randomness in the limits to their abilities (I would love to see 10 'different' Versions of the same Boss Mob in say 10 encounters with it).

That would be cool. Though WAR is not really a raid game PQs have bosses and that would make great replay value...I wonder how hard to actually program that would be.

[Aristae]

Mods that give you ALREADY AVAILABLE information DO NOT play the game for you. Its just pure ignorance to think otherwise.

Again with the insults... I really like your style.

This is the last post I am putting in this subject. The point of the matter is not mods that break the rules... it is the point that... there is things that are given through them... that take the actual playing out of the game.... I am just going to list a few for example: (Again these don't exploit... but tell me after you look through them... how these don't give people an upper hand.)

ControlArena (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/9048/)
This addon, like other arena addons, show you your enemies.
You can assign a single spell on left and right click. But you can also bind a spell or a macro for each class. For instance, if you are a warlock, you can bind curse of language to healers and curse of weakness for warrior.
Last Update: April 2, 2008 (2 weeks ago)

Paranoia (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/12054/)
Paranoia is a WoW addon by Lifetapt that attempts to detect enemy players of the opposite faction near you.
Last Update: April 17, 2008 (7 hours ago)

ArenaInspect (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/12176/)
ArenaInspect is a addon to visual inspect your arena and/or pvp opponents.
Last Update: April 16, 2008 (20 hours ago)

and the ones that killed raiding/pve...

Deadly Boss Mod (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/4940/)
everyone knows what this is.
(instance style) dbm-party (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/11099/)


So in essence... your telling me.. when you aren't paying attention... you should be told if there is a rogue that goes stealth somewhere around you? or the game should calculate for you what classes you are facing and you should just have to click the button and it will automatically cast the curse of choice? You should be able to see which gear your enemies are wearing? (because gear isn't reconizable even if the add-on doesn't show the stats /nod) You should be told when the mob you are fighting is going to AE? or tells you if they are about to cast a spell?

Please be realistic here and tell me that these things don't give an upper hand on someone who doesn't have it? on top of that... that this is easy information to attain?

*These mods are all still usable*

There are plenty more mods that do things similarly. It is a lot more fun when you are playing on a level battle field... where mods don't make a difference... where you have the same UI functions. I can see mods that change your health bars around.. or change the numbers to percents.... but mods that tell you in text if your buffs are running out? (SmartBuff) If you are dumb enough to run into battle without the buffs you normally have on you... then you deserve to be gimped because of it, imo.

Anyway... I've dealt with MMO's with no mods and everything was fine... so I don't see why they have to go above and beyond with anything other than aesthetic add-ons.

But... we'll see what they decide to do!

[Pangscar]

Again with the insults... I really like your style.

This is the last post I am putting in this subject. The point of the matter is not mods that break the rules... it is the point that... there is things that are given through them... that take the actual playing out of the game.... I am just going to list a few for example: (Again these don't exploit... but tell me after you look through them... how these don't give people an upper hand.)

ControlArena (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/9048/)
This addon, like other arena addons, show you your enemies.
You can assign a single spell on left and right click. But you can also bind a spell or a macro for each class. For instance, if you are a warlock, you can bind curse of language to healers and curse of weakness for warrior.
Last Update: April 2, 2008 (2 weeks ago)

Paranoia (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/12054/)
Paranoia is a WoW addon by Lifetapt that attempts to detect enemy players of the opposite faction near you.
Last Update: April 17, 2008 (7 hours ago)

ArenaInspect (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/12176/)
ArenaInspect is a addon to visual inspect your arena and/or pvp opponents.
Last Update: April 16, 2008 (20 hours ago)

and the ones that killed raiding/pve...

Deadly Boss Mod (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/4940/)
everyone knows what this is.
(instance style) dbm-party (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/11099/)


So in essence... your telling me.. when you aren't paying attention... you should be told if there is a rogue that goes stealth somewhere around you? or the game should calculate for you what classes you are facing and you should just have to click the button and it will automatically cast the curse of choice? You should be able to see which gear your enemies are wearing? (because gear isn't reconizable even if the add-on doesn't show the stats /nod) You should be told when the mob you are fighting is going to AE? or tells you if they are about to cast a spell?

Please be realistic here and tell me that these things don't give an upper hand on someone who doesn't have it? on top of that... that this is easy information to attain?

*These mods are all still usable*

There are plenty more mods that do things similarly. It is a lot more fun when you are playing on a level battle field... where mods don't make a difference... where you have the same UI functions. I can see mods that change your health bars around.. or change the numbers to percents.... but mods that tell you in text if your buffs are running out? (SmartBuff) If you are dumb enough to run into battle without the buffs you normally have on you... then you deserve to be gimped because of it, imo.

Anyway... I've dealt with MMO's with no mods and everything was fine... so I don't see why they have to go above and beyond with anything other than aesthetic add-ons.

But... we'll see what they decide to do!

ALL the info those mods provide is already available for you to see. Your in game combat log contains and displays that info. All you have to do is have a chat window with your combat log running and watch for the when is says "so and so begins to cast x spell" or " so and so enters stealth". Also EVERY boss in raids announces either in your combat log or it will do an emote such as "Onyxia takes a deep breath" That allow you to see what your target is doing same as those mods do. Also Blizz just added the ability to inspect players of the opposite faction.

So my original statement stands. Mods that give you ALREADY AVAILABLE information DO NOT play the game for you. Its just pure ignorance to think otherwise.

[Gunter]

ALL the info those mods provide is already available for you to see. Your in game combat log contains and displays that info. All you have to do is have a chat window with your combat log running and watch for the when is says "so and so begins to cast x spell" or " so and so enters stealth". Also EVERY boss in raids announces either in your combat log or it will do an emote such as "Onyxia takes a deep breath" That allow you to see what your target is doing same as those mods do. Also Blizz just added the ability to inspect players of the opposite faction.

So my original statement stands. Mods that give you ALREADY AVAILABLE information DO NOT play the game for you. Its just pure ignorance to think otherwise.

That standard UI lets you bind groups of keys to one and whatever the mod detects is wht you cast? You are the wrong one.

Some of these things do use combat log info. But they do things that go beyoind telling you they advise and decide for you. That playing the game for you, dumbing it down for you, giving you an advantage over people. Thats why its not in the spirit of the game, it shouldbe skill of decision that wins the day not your mod.

And calling people ignorant does not win your arguement either. ad hominim attacks are a sign of not having a good arguement.

[ZeppelinJ0]

ALL the info those mods provide is already available for you to see. Your in game combat log contains and displays that info. All you have to do is have a chat window with your combat log running and watch for the when is says "so and so begins to cast x spell" or " so and so enters stealth". Also EVERY boss in raids announces either in your combat log or it will do an emote such as "Onyxia takes a deep breath" That allow you to see what your target is doing same as those mods do. Also Blizz just added the ability to inspect players of the opposite faction.

So my original statement stands. Mods that give you ALREADY AVAILABLE information DO NOT play the game for you. Its just pure ignorance to think otherwise.

You're really reaching here. Yeah the information is available, but they make it available so the player makes the decision on what to do next, not to tell a mod what to do.

These mods are taking this nicely available information and then using it to marginalize or negate completely the point of having somebody actually sitting at the computer playing.

Just because the information is AVAILABLE doesn't mean you should be able to perform ridiculous tasks with ape-level ease.

When I took tests in college, information was always AVAILABLE in our notes, books etc... but it was up to me to use my brain to answer the questions which is the ultimate test of my ability.... Sure I could have taken all the available information and programmed it in to a calculator, or an ipod same crazy digital pen but I didn't because that would be CHEATING

[Pangscar]

And calling people ignorant does not win your arguement either. ad hominim attacks are a sign of not having a good arguement.

hmm? I'm not using the word ignorance in the manner which you imply it. I'm not calling people stupid and dumb for disagreeing. I'm using the term ignorance because it appears that some lack the proper knowledge on this topic to be taken seriously. Look up the word ignorance please before you accuse of attacking people again.

[pewpewarrows]

Again with the insults... I really like your style.

This is the last post I am putting in this subject. The point of the matter is not mods that break the rules... it is the point that... there is things that are given through them... that take the actual playing out of the game.... I am just going to list a few for example: (Again these don't exploit... but tell me after you look through them... how these don't give people an upper hand.)

ControlArena (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/9048/)

Paranoia (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/12054/)

ArenaInspect (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/12176/)

Deadly Boss Mod (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/4940/)



ControlArena keeps track of enemy players that you yourself have either targeted or mouse-overed, or that your teammates have either targeted or mouse-overed. It will also update opponent health bars based on the last person in your group that has either seen or targeted that person. I agree that this mod is stretching it. However it doesn't perform any tasks for you, and doesn't play the game for you. It takes information that you would gain from Vent/Teamspeak, and displays it on-screen.

Paranoia is a combat log inspector. Nothing more. Any player can open up their combat log and see when an enemy player nearby casts something or goes into stealth. This mod happens to point them out, again nothing more than information you're given.

Blizzard themselves added enemy faction inspection. You can do this by right-clicking the player frame and picking "Inspect." Hence, the mod doesn't give you anything the default ui doesn't.

I've already stated my opinion on DBM. It appears that the way Mythic designed raid encounters that no boss meters mod will be able to be created.

That standard UI lets you bind groups of keys to one and whatever the mod detects is wht you cast? You are the wrong one.

Some of these things do use combat log info. But they do things that go beyoind telling you they advise and decide for you. That playing the game for you, dumbing it down for you, giving you an advantage over people. Thats why its not in the spirit of the game, it shouldbe skill of decision that wins the day not your mod.

And calling people ignorant does not win your arguement either. ad hominim attacks are a sign of not having a good arguement.

The mod in question was 3 years old, heavily outdated, and was put to a stop by Blizzard. They made a poor choice in their API design decisions and corrected that. I can only assume Mythic is as smart when they were coding theirs.

You're really reaching here. Yeah the information is available, but they make it available so the player makes the decision on what to do next, not to tell a mod what to do.

These mods are taking this nicely available information and then using it to marginalize or negate completely the point of having somebody actually sitting at the computer playing.

Just because the information is AVAILABLE doesn't mean you should be able to perform ridiculous tasks with ape-level ease.

When I took tests in college, information was always AVAILABLE in our notes, books etc... but it was up to me to use my brain to answer the questions which is the ultimate test of my ability.... Sure I could have taken all the available information and programmed it in to a calculator, or an ipod same crazy digital pen but I didn't because that would be CHEATING

With the exception of DBM (which I am firmly against and will not be an issue in WAR), none of the mods you listed make decisions for you.

And your analogy very poorly worded. You talk about information being available before an exam, but not during it. In MMO's the information is ALWAYS available. It's not cheating to use it. Thus your example is completely irrelevant to modding.

[Gunter]

ControlArena keeps track of enemy players that you yourself have either targeted or mouse-overed, or that your teammates have either targeted or mouse-overed. It will also update opponent health bars based on the last person in your group that has either seen or targeted that person. I agree that this mod is stretching it. However it doesn't perform any tasks for you, and doesn't play the game for you. It takes information that you would gain from Vent/Teamspeak, and displays it on-screen.

Paranoia is a combat log inspector. Nothing more. Any player can open up their combat log and see when an enemy player nearby casts something or goes into stealth. This mod happens to point them out, again nothing more than information you're given.

Blizzard themselves added enemy faction inspection. You can do this by right-clicking the player frame and picking "Inspect." Hence, the mod doesn't give you anything the default ui doesn't.

I've already stated my opinion on DBM. It appears that the way Mythic designed raid encounters that no boss meters mod will be able to be created.



The mod in question was 3 years old, heavily outdated, and was put to a stop by Blizzard. They made a poor choice in their API design decisions and corrected that. I can only assume Mythic is as smart when they were coding theirs.



With the exception of DBM (which I am firmly against and will not be an issue in WAR), none of the mods you listed make decisions for you.

And your analogy very poorly worded. You talk about information being available before an exam, but not during it. In MMO's the information is ALWAYS available. It's not cheating to use it. Thus your example is completely irrelevant to modding.

It took Blizz 3 years to patch up thier APIs I do not want that in this game. The damage to advantage is unchangeable in WoW, it went on to long. Would have been better with no mods at all. Then they would haveto fix encounters not API.

If the API cannot be used to give an advantage then good. If it give advantage then it needs to be squashed fast and hard not over years.

[pewpewarrows]

It took Blizz 3 years to patch up thier APIs I do not want that in this game. The damage to advantage is unchangeable in WoW, it went on to long. Would have been better with no mods at all. Then they would haveto fix encounters not API.

If the API cannot be used to give an advantage then good. If it give advantage then it needs to be squashed fast and hard not over years.

Mythic devs stated months ago that they have a specialized team of beta testers ripping through their API. They've shown that not only do they recognize the need for well-written functions, but that they also do not want "holes" to allow code that would give an unfair advantage (such as the autoheal mod mentioned earlier in this thread).

[ZeppelinJ0]

Well then what I don't understand is why, if this information is so readily, and ALWAYS available, do people need mods to process this so easily accessed and always available information?

If it's always available, can't people just use that information themselves... you know... since it's always available?

[Gunter]

hmm? I'm not using the word ignorance in the manner which you imply it. I'm not calling people stupid and dumb for disagreeing. I'm using the term ignorance because it appears that some lack the proper knowledge on this topic to be taken seriously. Look up the word ignorance please before you accuse of attacking people again.

By your posts you clearly show how misinformed you are. "Playing the game for you" refers to when mods target and cast spells w/o you doing anything. These types of mods are not allowed and do not work in the games. Stop twisting phrases and examples to try and prove you shallow point. It only shows your desperation and ignorance on the subject.
It's quite funny to see the level of ignorance many people have about mods in this thread.

I hope you all realize that the game interface API, when done correctly like WoW's, does NOT allow any mod, macro, or script to do ANYTHING for you. They may not target, they may not cast spells or use abilities, they may not push buttons for you.

All they do is take existing information, and present it on-screen in a unique or intuitive way. It may go so far as to tell you who needs a heal, and what heal would work best on them, but you yourself as a player must go target that person, and click your ability to cast your spell. That mod would be taking a health bar, and reskinning it into a text warning, for those players who prefer text to bars.

Stop screaming bloody murder simply because you don't understand or are gravely misinformed about how mods work.


The second 2 statements say since one does not agree with you they are ignorant, not thier information which if you read it, is actually very informed and willing to discuss differences of opinion in a reasonable manner; unlike your statements that are grating and dismissive in tone. I am not ignorant of the issues and have my opinion from my experience of how mods destroy a game.

You are spitting terms like "playin for you" into a definitlion that is silly and not what was refered to in any way. Remonds me of a lawyer saying it matters what "it" means.

[Pangscar]

Well then what I don't understand is why, if this information is so readily, and ALWAYS available, do people need mods to process this so easily accessed and always available information?

If it's always available, can't people just use that information themselves... you know... since it's always available?


Because I want it MY way. I do not like the bland vanilla UI that devs make. If they allow it I want to change it and make it mine so to speak.

[Gunter]

Mythic devs stated months ago that they have a specialized team of beta testers ripping through their API. They've shown that not only do they recognize the need for well-written functions, but that they also do not want "holes" to allow code that would give an unfair advantage (such as the autoheal mod mentioned earlier in this thread).

I hope you are right and there is no holes.

[pewpewarrows]

Well then what I don't understand is why, if this information is so readily, and ALWAYS available, do people need mods to process this so easily accessed and always available information?

If it's always available, can't people just use that information themselves... you know... since it's always available?

And you just asked the question that sparked modding to begin with.

People like to play the game differently. Half the time the information that is always available is NOT readily accessible (it is buried deep in a combat log). Developers place these combat log events in-place for mod authors to use.

As I've stated time and time again, people like to perceive events differently. Some prefer the default UI, others like all bars and timers, others still like sounds, bells, and whistles. In addition, there is the visually appealing aspect to it. Many players would like the screen they're staring at for hundreds of hours of gametime to look nice. Thus they use artwork and different mods to spice it up.

FInally, there is the argument for features to be modded-in that should be in-game, and make the game more enjoyable, that an open-source API allows. Don't want to spend 5 minutes opening all your individual mail? Get or write a mod to open it all with one button click. No harm, no foul, a better game. That's modding.

[Gunter]

FInally, there is the argument for features to be modded-in that should be in-game, and make the game more enjoyable, that an open-source API allows. Don't want to spend 5 minutes opening all your individual mail? Get or write a mod to open it all with one button click. No harm, no foul, a better game. That's modding.

thast a cool mod. It gives no advantage over another player. But telling what openent you are facing all thier gear and then reading a spell (curse in the WoW mnod example) is not a good mod. Its give advantage.

[pewpewarrows]

The second 2 statements say since one does not agree with you they are ignorant, not thier information which if you read it, is actually very informed and willing to discuss differences of opinion in a reasonable manner; unlike your statements that are grating and dismissive in tone. I am not ignorant of the issues and have my opinion from my experience of how mods destroy a game.

You are spitting terms like "playin for you" into a definitlion that is silly and not what was refered to in any way. Remonds me of a lawyer saying it matters what "it" means.

It became apparent that there were a few individuals in this thread who thought that mods were bots, or that they could actually play the game for you by pushing buttons and targeting things. Thus I pointed out the ignorance, without naming names, and corrected them.

And "playing for you" was referenced before we brought it up. Thus it fits to properly define that term before the argument got out of hand.

[ZeppelinJ0]

And you just asked the question that sparked modding to begin with.

People like to play the game differently. Half the time the information that is always available is NOT readily accessible (it is buried deep in a combat log). Developers place these combat log events in-place for mod authors to use.

As I've stated time and time again, people like to perceive events differently. Some prefer the default UI, others like all bars and timers, others still like sounds, bells, and whistles. In addition, there is the visually appealing aspect to it. Many players would like the screen they're staring at for hundreds of hours of gametime to look nice. Thus they use artwork and different mods to spice it up.

FInally, there is the argument for features to be modded-in that should be in-game, and make the game more enjoyable, that an open-source API allows. Don't want to spend 5 minutes opening all your individual mail? Get or write a mod to open it all with one button click. No harm, no foul, a better game. That's modding.

This is all very fair modding, I'm a huge mod-hopper when it comes to changing the artistic style of my UI, but you make a very level-headed and fair argument in favor of mods because you do seem to understand the fears I'm/we're having in that while some mods like you mention are amazing, there are others that do border on unfair advantages and automating game mechanics which tends to trivialize content and the actual skill of a player.

Thanks for being cool in your defense instead of getting defensive, it actually does make a difference in seeing both sides of the issue, so I'll just wait for beta or release and we can ultimately see the extent to which mods can be created!

[Pangscar]

The second 2 statements say since one does not agree with you they are ignorant, not thier information which if you read it, is actually very informed and willing to discuss differences of opinion in a reasonable manner; unlike your statements that are grating and dismissive in tone. I am not ignorant of the issues and have my opinion from my experience of how mods destroy a game.

You are spitting terms like "playin for you" into a definitlion that is silly and not what was refered to in any way. Remonds me of a lawyer saying it matters what "it" means.


No. You are wrong simple as that. The definitions to those phrases is common knowledge, I'm not making anything up as you say. Again using the word ignorance refers to the lack of knowledge on this subject as the posters I was referring to clearly didn't have their facts straight on how CURRENT mods work which is what I though this thread was about. You can try to imply what ever you meaning you want but that facts speak for themselves. This is the last I will reply to you on this subject, if you want to discuss the topic of this thread then fine lets do it but otherwise I have nothing more to say to you.

[pewpewarrows]

This is all very fair modding, I'm a huge mod-hopper when it comes to changing the artistic style of my UI, but you make a very level-headed and fair argument in favor of mods because you do seem to understand the fears I'm/we're having in that while some mods like you mention are amazing, there are others that do border on unfair advantages and automating game mechanics which tends to trivialize content and the actual skill of a player.

Thanks for being cool in your defense instead of getting defensive, it actually does make a difference in seeing both sides of the issue, so I'll just wait for beta or release and we can ultimately see the extent to which mods can be created!

Thanks :) I look forward to seeing how it pans out as well. As I've stated previously in either this or another thread, I do plan on policing the API as soon as it becomes public. Any function calls or variables that I believe are unfair or can be used improperly I will report to Mythic, as well as proposed solutions. In addition I plan on frequently posting here with mod updates and discussions, as well as creating a WAR website where one of the main features will be mod development and discussion. If any mod hosted on my site is too controversial, I will stop providing download links to it. Simple as that :P

[Hive]

I wonder how many of you actually used DBM and how many of you are making assumptions from what others have said about it. All it does is gives you a heads up from what's scrolling in your combat log and kept a timer based on that same log (very poorly, i might add) for certain scripted boss actions. Oh noes! I'd say the people who got the most use out of it were tanks, who spent 90% of a fight staring at a bosses crotch and couldn't see anything else to be able to react to it. It certainly didn't hurt healers either, with 25+ green bars to keep track of in addition to any choreographic movements and actions they'd have to take.

DBM was a logically offshoot of something we'd been doing since MC days-- having one person who's only job was to use vent and raid warnings to keep everyone else informed of what was going on. It didn't "play the game for you" any more than the basic UI did, it just made warnings you'd get normally (either from the combat log or the from the bosses speech) more noticeable.

I think the biggest point most of you anti-modders are missing is that the majority of MMO players now are casual, both in the fact that they play for fun and that they don't have the time to invest in a game that they'd like. So what if they prefer to make the game easier for themselves? Most of you seem to consider yourselves skilled, just call it an added challenge and prove that your fingers can cash the checks your ego has written. I've yet to see a single case of non-exploiting mods beating true skill in any game I've played, so it shouldn't be that difficult... or are you afraid that Johnny-40-hour-work-week will have half a chance against you?

[Retina]

It certainly didn't hurt healers either, with 25+ green bars to keep track of in addition to any choreographic movements and actions they'd have to take.
Yes, it made their job easier. Again with the easier.

DBM was a logically offshoot of something we'd been doing since MC days-- having one person who's only job was to use vent and raid warnings to keep everyone else informed of what was going on. It didn't "play the game for you" any more than the basic UI did, it just made warnings you'd get normally (either from the combat log or the from the bosses speech) more noticeable.
Here you make the opposite point than you intended. You state that one person would watch the logs, listen closely to the boss, watch the boss closely and then report to the raid "XXX POWER INC!" or some such. Then you state that the mod now does that job for them. How is that not "playing the game for them" when it removes the need for that job in a raid?

I think the biggest point most of you anti-modders are missing is that the majority of MMO players now are casual, both in the fact that they play for fun and that they don't have the time to invest in a game that they'd like. So what if they prefer to make the game easier for themselves? Most of you seem to consider yourselves skilled, just call it an added challenge and prove that your fingers can cash the checks your ego has written. I've yet to see a single case of non-exploiting mods beating true skill in any game I've played, so it shouldn't be that difficult... or are you afraid that Johnny-40-hour-work-week will have half a chance against you?
Casual has nothing to do it. Again with the "easier". And throwing around attacks again isn't helping your argument.

[Retina]

Regarding the beta API team and testing, could someone post a link with further information on this? I think that would help this discussion along as the Lua link did. Thanks a ton!

[Nerissa]

Hell theres even mods that let you see your oponents spec when you target them in arena, i guess it just reads armory but thats a HUGE advantage for anyone who knows how to use it.


You don't need that mod, really. All warriors are Arms, all rogues are Shadowstep, all mages are Frost, all warlocks are SL/SL, all hunters are Marksman (for Silencing shot), All priests are either disc or shadow, disc is more common. Druids tend to be resto, both feral and balance are very rare. Shaman tend to be resto or elemental. Paladins tend to be Holy or Ret.... and the difference between the two is quite obvious without such a mod.


And now I've covered every class. That mod was worthless to an extreme.

[Nerissa]

[EDIT] OH! and Damage Meters, keep these the mother eff out of this game, people place way too much emphasis on topping the charts then accomplishing the objective and a lot of people equate skill with damage meters. Hell no thanks.

They are useful in PvE when a smart raid leader uses them and slaps down idiot epeeners. (You pull aggro, you get called on it.)


Especially useful are the ones that detail skills usage. This is a great way to see why someone is underperforming if they are.



But then, I may have a soft spot for them since on my paladin's first 25-man raid as Ret, I clobbered our mage raid leader on boss kill DPS. (Both of us stayed alive from start to finish on the boss) Lolret indeed.

[Nerissa]

I think people see that mods can be used for botting.


Only mods with automated functions, such as the old Decursive, can be used for botting.


Unless you mean someone making a script that uses information from a mod. But information from mods is usually information from the game itself. Threat meters are a simple combat log parser that communicates its data to all people running the same mod in a group. It parses the combat log and tallies threat according to what abilities are used, what talents or other aggro modifiers the person has on them, etc.

Most automated functions have been written out of WoW by now. You don't even have the space to make the Supremely Complicated Macro from hell (and I don't know if you even have enough functions) that would be needed to pick and choose spells dynamically while spamming a single button.

(I remember that stupid autoheal mod. I never used it, because the only people you would ever want using that thing are stupid lemmings that really can't play, so you use them to pad the raid's health)

One of the reason raids got boring is that in a 40 man raid only about 10 people have to pay attention and the rest hit thir mod.
.

I am sorry that your raid experience was, quite likely, limited to MC and the first half of BWL. In AQ40 and Naxx, EVERYONE had to be aware at all times. Anyone being asleep at the wheel in those instances was an extreme liability. (Tries to imagine someone being asleep at the wheel in 4H.... that would be a fast death indeed)

Even ZG and AQ20 were much better about needing people to actually pay attention than MC was

[Retina]

You don't need that mod, really. All warriors are Arms, all rogues are Shadowstep, all mages are Frost, all warlocks are SL/SL, all hunters are Marksman (for Silencing shot), All priests are either disc or shadow, disc is more common. Druids tend to be resto, both feral and balance are very rare. Shaman tend to be resto or elemental. Paladins tend to be Holy or Ret.... and the difference between the two is quite obvious without such a mod.

And now I've covered every class. That mod was worthless to an extreme.
Actually, here's a case where the mod could be detrimental to you... to get this info, it needs to grab it from the armory possibly causing a slight bit of lag as it grabs it. It would be hilarious to die due to lag caused by your own mod.

But silliness aside, I'm not sure anything like that would be needed in WAR either as it would become obvious super fast what their "spec" was by what abilities they start throwing around. Also, we're not talking 2v2,3v3, etc here, we're hopefully talking 200v200 - that's a ton of data to try and grab and parse.

So perhaps it's all moot, at least for the big battles. If some of these kinds of mods are allowed, they'd probably only have a real impact on Scenarios and to a lesser extent, open RvR. We'll see though.

[Gunter]

Thanks :) I look forward to seeing how it pans out as well. As I've stated previously in either this or another thread, I do plan on policing the API as soon as it becomes public. Any function calls or variables that I believe are unfair or can be used improperly I will report to Mythic, as well as proposed solutions. In addition I plan on frequently posting here with mod updates and discussions, as well as creating a WAR website where one of the main features will be mod development and discussion. If any mod hosted on my site is too controversial, I will stop providing download links to it. Simple as that :P

If this statement reflects your opinion I take back anything negative I said reference to you. Thats a good modding attitude.

[Gunter]

I am sorry that your raid experience was, quite likely, limited to MC and the first half of BWL. In AQ40 and Naxx, EVERYONE had to be aware at all times. Anyone being asleep at the wheel in those instances was an extreme liability. (Tries to imagine someone being asleep at the wheel in 4H.... that would be a fast death indeed)

Even ZG and AQ20 were much better about needing people to actually pay attention than MC was

MC/BWL yes is my main raid experience. All of BWL though. BWL took more attention once you got to Flamegore.

[Hive]

Yes, it made their job easier. Again with the easier.
What's wrong with easier? Last time I checked we were talking about games, and by definition games are played for fun. I'd say more people have fun when they don't have to study an encounter for months and spend endless nights in frustration waiting for that magic night when everything goes exactly right and absolutely no one screws up in any way.

While a select few may get their jollies off from that kind of masochism it does nothing to promote the genre to a wider audience-- a bigger audience means more funds for development which, in turn, means more room to put in the kind of browbeating content you enjoy. Everyone wins.

Gone are the days of oldschool EQ raiding when you had to devote your life to the game or get completely left behind, and in some ways I miss it but in most ways I don't. As I've said before there are still only a minority of of full time raiding guilds that ever make it to the cutting edge content, so obviously your "easy mode mods" don't make that much of a difference-- bad players are still bad players, good players are still good players, and more people get to see neat fights even if they don't stand a chance of beating most of them. No harm, no foul.



Here you make the opposite point than you intended. You state that one person would watch the logs, listen closely to the boss, watch the boss closely and then report to the raid "XXX POWER INC!" or some such. Then you state that the mod now does that job for them. How is that not "playing the game for them" when it removes the need for that job in a raid?
Because that same person now gets to actually play their class instead of being a glorified spectator. Oh wait, I forgot you're against people enjoying their playtime to the fullest extent. :rolleyes:


Casual has nothing to do it. Again with the "easier". And throwing around attacks again isn't helping your argument. If you think that's an attack you need to get out more. All I've said is you can still get your satisfaction of doing things the "hard way" no matter if the mods are in or not, so your argument is rather pointless. You've still yet to prove that "harder is better" in any sense other than e-peens on the table competitions, and even then I've shown that you don't have to make the game more frustrating for everyone to still have the ultimate trump card in "I do it without mods". Cool. You win. Everyone can now go back to playing however they choose to. Happily ever after, etc.

Oh, and casual has everything to do with it as I explained above.

[Loekii]

ControlArena keeps track of enemy players that you yourself have either targeted or mouse-overed, or that your teammates have either targeted or mouse-overed. It will also update opponent health bars based on the last person in your group that has either seen or targeted that person. I agree that this mod is stretching it. However it doesn't perform any tasks for you, and doesn't play the game for you. It takes information that you would gain from Vent/Teamspeak, and displays it on-screen.

Paranoia is a combat log inspector. Nothing more. Any player can open up their combat log and see when an enemy player nearby casts something or goes into stealth. This mod happens to point them out, again nothing more than information you're given.

These are both examples of where the mod over steps the boundry.

If the Default UI does not show you enemy players on the mini-map, then a mod should not.

If the Default UI does not mark enemies on the map when you ally sees them, then a mod should not.

If the Default UI does not sound an alarm when an new enemy appears in the 'Combat Chat', then a Mod should not.

These mods are not providing the 'identical' information.

They are enhancing how the information is displayed, and increasing its functionality, to the point that it provides an advantage.

Just because the 'combat Chat' says X, doesn't mean a mod has Carte Blanche with that information.

It should be limited to what the 'advantage' the combat Chat provides.

[Hive]

These are both examples of where the mod over steps the boundry.

If the Default UI does not show you enemy players on the mini-map, then a mod should not.

If the Default UI does not mark enemies on the map when you ally sees them, then a mod should not.
The basic UI does both of this in WoW.

If the Default UI does not sound an alarm when an new enemy appears in the 'Combat Chat', then a Mod should not.Audio cuing of anything happening are allowed as well.

These mods are not providing the 'identical' information.

They are enhancing how the information is displayed, and increasing its functionality, to the point that it provides an advantage.

Just because the 'combat Chat' says X, doesn't mean a mod has Carte Blanche with that information.

It should be limited to what the 'advantage' the combat Chat provides.It is, in fact, providing the exact same information available, the only change is the format that it's presented in, which is the entire purpose of mods.

[flipper]

You don't need that mod, really. All warriors are Arms, all rogues are Shadowstep, all mages are Frost, all warlocks are SL/SL, all hunters are Marksman (for Silencing shot), All priests are either disc or shadow, disc is more common. Druids tend to be resto, both feral and balance are very rare. Shaman tend to be resto or elemental. Paladins tend to be Holy or Ret.... and the difference between the two is quite obvious without such a mod.


And now I've covered every class. That mod was worthless to an extreme.
Well firstly in 2v2 most hunters are survival for the silly traps that make their druid healers life alot easier, but some are also BW and some are MM.
Warlocks yes most are sl/sl these days but theres still a few felguard warlocks and i was fighting the good fight playing affliction until i quit that toon.
Warriors yes, ms is very powerful and everyone specs it.
Mages most are frost granted but fire also exists sometimes in the gib teams for 5v5.
Shamans can be either elemental or resto and its rather hard to tell by gear.
Paladins are healers always.
Priests can be either disc or holy and both are viable in arena, shadow is obvious of course.
Theres alot of diversity between these specs of course, and knowing what a player is specced down to the last point before the battle has even begun is a huge advantage.
It helps you spot that one prot warrior who thinks he can pvp by sundering who is no doubt lurking somewhere in your battlegroup and laugh at him for example.

Oh and easier is not okay, anything that gives one player an advantage over another player and is not part of the game is cheating, if this is left unfixed then eventually all players use it and it doesn't even give an advantage any more, all it does is increase lag and dumb down the game.
Would chess be more fun if every peice was a queen? NO.
Same applys to mmos.
The players should not be the ones to decide on the difficulty of a game, game developers spend millions on balancing these games and will no doubt be able to do alot better at it then mod makers.
Personally if i find a game too challenging i practice at it and become better instead of downloading a mod, i do this because i get a sense of self improvement and becoming a better gamer from it.
Imagine what people would say if sombody brought a fighter jet to the 100 meters race at the olympics.

[Retina]

What's wrong with easier?
It's an MMO, not a single player game. Go ahead and mod the heck out of Oblivion, but when you mod an MMO to make something easier for you, then you have an advantage. Yes, others can also use the same mods, but they have to know about them, install them, keep them up to date and deal with patch day issues. Since it's not part of the base game, then not everyone will have it, therefor it's an advantage.

Last time I checked we were talking about games, and by definition games are played for fun.
They are. But we're talking about MMOs, not single-player games. If you don't find a MMO fun, play something else. The point of MMOs is that everyone is playing the same game. Same classes, encounters, areas, bosses, bugs, crashes, lag, etc. You want to change that. You want your game to be easier than it already is. You want a different game. Well, then play a different game.

I'd say more people have fun when they don't have to study an encounter for months and spend endless nights in frustration waiting for that magic night when everything goes exactly right and absolutely no one screws up in any way.
And that's fine. That's your opinion of what is too much for an encounter. I also agree. That's a heck of a lot of prep just for one or even a series of fights. But if the designers want that fight to be that way, why do you think you have the right to change that with a mod?

Gone are the days of oldschool EQ raiding when you had to devote your life to the game or get completely left behind, and in some ways I miss it but in most ways I don't. As I've said before there are still only a minority of of full time raiding guilds that ever make it to the cutting edge content, so obviously your "easy mode mods" don't make that much of a difference-- bad players are still bad players, good players are still good players, and more people get to see neat fights even if they don't stand a chance of beating most of them. No harm, no foul.
Where are your facts? Serously, you're trying to make a point with statements that really need backing up. When you say things like "only a minority", show me how you know this.

Oh, and they are your "easy mode mods" as I think the game is just fine without them.

Oh wait, I forgot you're against people enjoying their playtime to the fullest extent. :rolleyes:
Never said that. Get your facts straight. I've said the exact opposite. You're the one who insists on changing the game to fit your needs which is what leads me to question why you're playing it in the first place if it's not fun for you.

If you think that's an attack you need to get out more.
Why do you always have to lower everything with a quip like this?

All I've said is you can still get your satisfaction of doing things the "hard way" no matter if the mods are in or not, so your argument is rather pointless. You've still yet to prove that "harder is better" in any sense other than e-peens on the table competitions, and even then I've shown that you don't have to make the game more frustrating for everyone to still have the ultimate trump card in "I do it without mods". Cool. You win. Everyone can now go back to playing however they choose to. Happily ever after, etc.
Ok, first off you need to re-read what I've been saying all along. I have simply quoted all of you stating over and over the use of the word "easier" not "easy". There's a huge difference. This, as you call it, "hard way" is the way the game was designed. You're the one that has a problem with that. Second, you have yet to "show" me anything but speculation about market conditions and development trends with nothing to back them up.

I never said "harder is better". I simply think that the games don't need to be made easier. I like the play them the way the designers intended, you don't think that's fun so you want to change it. Is that really your choice? This is why I think you're playing the wrong game.

Oh, and casual has everything to do with it as I explained above.
Nope, you didn't. If you think the "casual market" is so critically important to MMOs, provide some data, otherwise you're just speculating again.

[Llamazerker]

What do you guys think about mods?

I never used any while playing EQ2 at first, but eventually started using some. However, I used quite a bit in WoW. The difference was that my mods in EQ2 really only changed the appearance, while I always felt that the mods that were available for WoW actually gave me a competitive edge.

This concerns me with WAR focusing on pvp. I almost hope they don't allow mods, just so people can't create mods that give them a competitive advantage. It just seems to take away from the skill, when you have a mod that tells you everything you need to do and everything your opponent is doing.

i didnt find those mods very usefull. i could guess what they were doing faster then i could read it. the mod that really helped me have a competetive edge was itemrack. switching from good healing set to good dps set was godly in wsg.

[Vejuz]

Just out of curiosity, what your take on Auctioneer (http://auctioneeraddon.com/) mod Retina and Loekii? (Or anyone else who wants to answer of course.) I'm asking out of sheer curiosity, I have no intention of taking part in this debate.

[Hive]

It's an MMO, not a single player game. Go ahead and mod the heck out of Oblivion, but when you mod an MMO to make something easier for you, then you have an advantage. Yes, others can also use the same mods, but they have to know about them, install them, keep them up to date and deal with patch day issues. Since it's not part of the base game, then not everyone will have it, therefor it's an advantage.
So by that rational everyone should have the exact same gear, and be the same level, and... wait... sounds like you would rather be playing an FPS.

Mods are not some super secret club that only the cool kids know about, they're available for everyone. All mods are not some thinly veiled bot program out to ruin all that is holy in the vanilla box-- mostly there they're to customize what you see and the information you deem most important in ways you find the most useful. How game breaking is it to know how many bag slots I have open without having to manually open every bag I have and count? Does it destroy your plans when I can open all my unread mail with one click? Do you get seizures when I look at the actual amount of health my teammate has instead of a percentage? By your way of thinking all these things give me some advantage.


They are. But we're talking about MMOs, not single-player games. If you don't find a MMO fun, play something else. The point of MMOs is that everyone is playing the same game. Same classes, encounters, areas, bosses, bugs, crashes, lag, etc. You want to change that. You want your game to be easier than it already is. You want a different game. Well, then play a different game.No, I want a game that's more suited to my style of play using features that the *gasp* developers themselves put in! *dramatic pause* Darn those sneaky devs, just when you think they gave you a great game they give you the option to make it even better.


And that's fine. That's your opinion of what is too much for an encounter. I also agree. That's a heck of a lot of prep just for one or even a series of fights. But if the designers want that fight to be that way, why do you think you have the right to change that with a mod? The wisecrack above also covers this point. But it's worthwhile to repeat this-- the developers themselves have put in the tools to allow mods. They have the ability to control whatever function they find acceptable; if they don't want a feature to be available it won't be.

Why do they do this? To allow different people who enjoy different play styles to enjoy the same game.


Where are your facts? Serously, you're trying to make a point with statements that really need backing up. When you say things like "only a minority", show me how you know this.For some easy examples go to WoW's realm forums. Pick a random realm and look for a sticked thread called "pve progression". Now look through this this thread and see how many guilds have downed Illidan or have started on the Sunwell. Do this a dozen times or so. You'll find per server maybe 2 guilds (usually consisting of around 40-50 players and their alts) who have done the it all, and I daresay most of them did it after the recent nerfing of those same instances.

By this point the developers for WoW know exactly what mods the serious raiders use and design encounters with them in mind. Some of the more popular ones, like threat meters, are going into the basic game in future patches-- which goes to show that sometimes even the designers don't know everything.

Oh, and they are your "easy mode mods" as I think the game is just fine without them. Taken in context to mean "the mods you refer to as easy mode", but whatever.


Never said that. Get your facts straight. I've said the exact opposite. You're the one who insists on changing the game to fit your needs which is what leads me to question why you're playing it in the first place if it's not fun for you.That's how you come off. And you'll notice there's a difference between being fun, and being more fun. ;)

Tell me something, when you get into someones else's car to drive do you adjust your seat? The position of your mirrors? Do you change the radio station? That's the kind of adjustments mods make to a game.


Why do you always have to lower everything with a quip like this?If I shared my real feelings towards you I'd be banned. Call them love taps and consider them part of my charm.



I never said "harder is better". oh really? I want it to be hard, brutally hard like the Warhammer universe is. I want it to leave people crying after being defeated on the Bastion Stair, their bodies mangled and broken.
It should hurt.If I call BS do I get to punch you in the arm?


I simply think that the games don't need to be made easier. I like the play them the way the designers intended, you don't think that's fun so you want to change it. Is that really your choice? This is why I think you're playing the wrong game.It is my choice when the developers leave in the option to do so, your inability to understand that boggles me.


Nope, you didn't. If you think the "casual market" is so critically important to MMOs, provide some data, otherwise you're just speculating again.WoW vs EQ in terms of sales. WoW dumbed everything down while still leaving a challenge for the hard core section-- 10 million or so sales while EQ might have hit 2 million at it's peak. Popularity doesn't mean quality, but it does go to show that there is a huge casual market out there that a serious designer would be foolish to leave out.

[Retina]

So by that rational everyone should have the exact same gear, and be the same level, and... wait... sounds like you would rather be playing an FPS.
Not where I was going with this, but you bring up an interesting point so let's run with it. Along those lines, it is actually true: each class does have access (used loosely) to the same gear and they can all be the same level, usually the cap. Also, since this is an RvR focused game, on some levels it should be treated like a competitive FPS: security, fairness, cheat protection, lag reduction, etc.

Mods are not some super secret club that only the cool kids know about, they're available for everyone. All mods are not some thinly veiled bot program out to ruin all that is holy in the vanilla box-- mostly there they're to customize what you see and the information you deem most important in ways you find the most useful. How game breaking is it to know how many bag slots I have open without having to manually open every bag I have and count? Does it destroy your plans when I can open all my unread mail with one click? Do you get seizures when I look at the actual amount of health my teammate has instead of a percentage? By your way of thinking all these things give me some advantage.
I'm all for skinning the UI as I've stated previously, but there's a difference between simply skinning the UI to look different and adding functionality. I've been talking about functionality driven by scripts, not simply changing the position and look of the UI. But, because they are not included with the game, you can't guarantee that everyone will have them.

No, I want a game that's more suited to my style of play
If they allow it in WAR, then you'll have it and I guess I'll have to have it too since I'd like to be competitive. But we'll see. We still need better info on what exactly will happen in WAR.

For some easy examples go to WoW's realm forums. Pick a random realm and look for a sticked thread called "pve progression". Now look through this this thread and see how many guilds have downed Illidan or have started on the Sunwell. Do this a dozen times or so. You'll find per server maybe 2 guilds (usually consisting of around 40-50 players and their alts) who have done the it all, and I daresay most of them did it after the recent nerfing of those same instances.
Ok, I almost hurt myself laughing at this. Thanks for that, I needed a laugh. The WoW forums being some kind of source of real information or data :p

Some of the more popular ones, like threat meters, are going into the basic game in future patches
Really? They're actually going to add those to the base game? This has got to be one of the most pathetic things I've heard. I wish you were kidding on this, but it also doesn't surprise me. Eh, c'est la vie.

Tell me something, when you get into someones else's car to drive do you adjust your seat? The position of your mirrors? Do you change the radio station? That's the kind of adjustments mods make to a game.
But as I've said, I'm fine with cosmetic changes to the UI or, to use the words above, adjusting the seat and mirrors.

But to continue your metaphor: does your friend allow you to throw on a tachometer if it doesn't have one? The information is there, audibly, but this would be changing how it's displayed.

Now let's go a step further. You're in a race using the same vehicles except you've added a tachometer to yours which will let you drive it more effectively. Yes, there is still a pure skill difference in driving, but you've gained an albeit slight advantage over them, but it is an advantage none the less. The other driver could do the same, but do you see the difference? Maybe they didn't know how to install it since it didn't come with the car. Maybe they got the one for a previous model of that car and it doesn't work or gives wrong info.

Oh and no, I wouldn't change the radio station. It is their car after all.

I never said "harder is better".oh really?I want it to be hard, brutally hard like the Warhammer universe is. I want it to leave people crying after being defeated on the Bastion Stair, their bodies mangled and broken.
It should hurt.If I call BS do I get to punch you in the arm?
Where did I say "harder is better"? I just said I wanted it to be hard. Doesn't mean that that is better, just my opinion. With WoW as an example, obviously harder is not better. For sales at least. For fun? Well that's up to taste and we undoubtedly differ on that as pretty much everyone does. "To each his own" as they say.

Oh, and you only get to punch me in the arm if you can catch me....I'll b inside ur city, pwning ur d00dz :) (sorry, couldn't resist)

It is my choice when the developers leave in the option to do so, your inability to understand that boggles me.
Oh I understand, if they leave the option in.

WoW vs EQ in terms of sales. WoW dumbed everything down while still leaving a challenge for the hard core section-- 10 million or so sales while EQ might have hit 2 million at it's peak. Popularity doesn't mean quality, but it does go to show that there is a huge casual market out there that a serious designer would be foolish to leave out.
Not sure where you get "a huge casual market" from this. Those are not sales numbers either, they're numbers of accounts and considering WoW has a free trial, you can bet they count those in their numbers. But does 10 mil vs 2 mil = huge casual market?

I do understand the casual market, but that's a more general term for type of game or gamer and it's not specific to MMOs. I would agree that WoW is more casual friendly in some respects, but that isn't really mod related is it? Is there some data on that relationship? Anyone have link to a study of that? It would be an interesting read.

If I shared my real feelings towards you I'd be banned.
Then let's stop. We're both really passionate about this subject and that's good.

I feel some and only some of these mods "dumb down" or marginalize the gameplay.
You feel that some (and only some IIRC) of these mods enhance the gameplay and increase the fun.

We're both right simply because that's how we each want to play.

All I know is my hovercraft is full of eels

[Retina]

Just out of curiosity, what your take on Auctioneer (http://auctioneeraddon.com/) mod Retina and Loekii? (Or anyone else who wants to answer of course.) I'm asking out of sheer curiosity, I have no intention of taking part in this debate.
I find it does go too far as it trivializes working the market. Those who use it have an extreme advantage at working the market over those who don't. It is quite an amazing piece of software though.

[Hive]

I'm all for skinning the UI as I've stated previously, but there's a difference between simply skinning the UI to look different and adding functionality. I've been talking about functionality driven by scripts, not simply changing the position and look of the UI. But, because they are not included with the game, you can't guarantee that everyone will have them.
I think this boils down to our major difference-- what we define as changing the functionality. To me, any information that is made available to a player in any form should be allowed to be shown to that player in any format they choose. If I decide that I need to know exactly how many fluffy bunnies my character has killed (according to the combat log) on his stampede through the countryside then I should be able to make a mod that tells me this in a graph with audio alerts for every sixth one I turn into a pair of slippers.


If they allow it in WAR, then you'll have it and I guess I'll have to have it too since I'd like to be competitive. But we'll see. We still need better info on what exactly will happen in WAR. But half the fun of the wait for a game we're all excited about is making new friends while arguing violently over vague scraps of misquoted information.


Ok, I almost hurt myself laughing at this. Thanks for that, I needed a laugh. The WoW forums being some kind of source of real information or data :p
Sadly, those threads listing server progression are the soul source of accurate information you'd ever find amid that steaming cesspool masquerading as a forum.


Really? They're actually going to add those to the base game? This has got to be one of the most pathetic things I've heard. I wish you were kidding on this, but it also doesn't surprise me. Eh, c'est la vie. That's the big rumor according to my friends that still play. Like I said, most of the boss fights are now made with mods like threat meter in mind, and they're definitely needed in those fights due to the enrage timers all the bosses have now-- you absolutely have to have all your dps riding the threat line or after a certain amount of time the bosses pretty much auto-wipes you.


But as I've said, I'm fine with cosmetic changes to the UI or, to use the words above, adjusting the seat and mirrors.

But to continue your metaphor: does your friend allow you to throw on a tachometer if it doesn't have one? The information is there, audibly, but this would be changing how it's displayed.

Now let's go a step further. You're in a race using the same vehicles except you've added a tachometer to yours which will let you drive it more effectively. Yes, there is still a pure skill difference in driving, but you've gained an albeit slight advantage over them, but it is an advantage none the less. The other driver could do the same, but do you see the difference? Maybe they didn't know how to install it since it didn't come with the car. Maybe they got the one for a previous model of that car and it doesn't work or gives wrong info.

As you said, it's an advantage available to everyone, so yes, I would in a heartbeat. Ignorance, as I've been told, is no excuse and if the other player is serious about the game he'll find ways to play to his strengths and gain advantages as well. And if he's not serious then I bet hes having a such good time whacking away with his sword that he won't care that I might know what color underwear his toon is wearing.

At the same time this i going to be an inherently imbalanced game with or without mods-- different computer specs, different internet connections, distance from the games servers... It really shouldn't matter if someone has a slight edge as this game is based on advancing the realm instead of the individual-- for every super modder that has squeezed every last drop out of what he's giving you'll have his realm mate who plays on dial up and thinks vendor trash gear is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It will balance out in the end.

Oh and no, I wouldn't change the radio station. It is their car after all.
Hrm, perhaps that did go a bit far with that one, but "change his wiper fluid" just didn't ring the same way.




Oh, and you only get to punch me in the arm if you can catch me....I'll b inside ur city, pwning ur d00dz :) (sorry, couldn't resist)
Maybe it's the insomnia catching up to me, but I laughed so loud I scared my dog.:D





Not sure where you get "a huge casual market" from this. Those are not sales numbers either, they're numbers of accounts and considering WoW has a free trial, you can bet they count those in their numbers. But does 10 mil vs 2 mil = huge casual market? Considering the audience spread I'd say so-- as much as I dislike the game I do have to say that it opened up the genre to the masses. Back in EQ it was mostly males age 16-25 with lots of free time to devote to the game, now you can find grandmothers talking about their hunters to CEO's of major companies.

I do understand the casual market, but that's a more general term for type of game or gamer and it's not specific to MMOs. I would agree that WoW is more casual friendly in some respects, but that isn't really mod related is it? Is there some data on that relationship? Anyone have link to a study of that? It would be an interesting read.Perhaps I should have specifically said casual MMO players, and it was meant more in reference to your preference for the game to backslide to the old days. Strike it up as unimportant.




I feel some and only some of these mods "dumb down" or marginalize the gameplay.
You feel that some (and only some IIRC) of these mods enhance the gameplay and increase the fun.

We're both right simply because that's how we each want to play.
I'm starting to think the guy with the sword and the pretty pink undies from my example has it right, it should be about having fun.

All I know is my hovercraft is full of eels
I don't have any matches, will a lighter do?;)

[wtnind]

First of all, if all mods are publicly available then it is fair and balanced.

Expecting the developers to support the UI and update it according to your whims is exactly the same as expecting them to write new drivers for your graphics card because you want to run it under linux with crossfire ATI cards. Somone else can do it better, the open source community.

Frankly I wouldn't care if my opponent was fighting me from a dosbox typing in all his commands down a socket. The games core engine determines what is possible in the universe and that's what matters.

Skill at using the interface is NOT SKILL (unless its a wiimote). What the character does inside the game engine is what matters, how the orders are given is irrelevant beyond a very basic no-botting level which mythic ensures by the structure of the available API.

Why do you think pro gamers use mice with adjustable weights, with buttons to change the sensitivity for when they switch to sniper scope, keyboards with programmable sequences. Its all to reduce the barrier between user and core game engine. No interface is perfect but going open source is a giant leap towards perfection.

[flipper]

unfortunately that leap is off a cliff onto a bed of burning spikes, because the internet is full of lamers who try to exploit mods to give them an unfair advantage, just like the mice.

[Gunter]

First of all, if all mods are publicly available then it is fair and balanced.

Expecting the developers to support the UI and update it according to your whims is exactly the same as expecting them to write new drivers for your graphics card because you want to run it under linux with crossfire ATI cards. Somone else can do it better, the open source community.

Frankly I wouldn't care if my opponent was fighting me from a dosbox typing in all his commands down a socket. The games core engine determines what is possible in the universe and that's what matters.

Skill at using the interface is NOT SKILL (unless its a wiimote). What the character does inside the game engine is what matters, how the orders are given is irrelevant beyond a very basic no-botting level which mythic ensures by the structure of the available API.

Why do you think pro gamers use mice with adjustable weights, with buttons to change the sensitivity for when they switch to sniper scope, keyboards with programmable sequences. Its all to reduce the barrier between user and core game engine. No interface is perfect but going open source is a giant leap towards perfection.

So if someone made a modd that dod MOST f the fighting for you ie decided what skills to use and all you had to do was hit the 1 key and it was publically available than that is cool? People that want that do not want challenge. Thats not fighting thats just pushing a button and my 6 year old neice can be as good as anyone. This is an example not a real mod in any game.

You are correct that competators want an edge not a level playing field. Its notlowering the the barrier its to hve a possible edge. all spots are like that to a point.

[Dregu]

You are correct that competators want an edge not a level playing field. Its notlowering the the barrier its to hve a possible edge. all spots are like that to a point.

The edge should come from intelligence and skill. Not having more free time to find the latest and greatest programs that enhance your game.

[Pangscar]

The edge should come from intelligence and skill. Not having more free time to find the latest and greatest programs that enhance your game.


mods/addons are not programs. They Don't "run" while your playing. If you don't understand a concept then you shouldn't comment on it.

[Dregu]

mods/addons are not programs. They Don't "run" while your playing. If you don't understand a concept then you shouldn't comment on it.

I used the term program loosely.

[Retina]

mods/addons are not programs. They Don't "run" while your playing. If you don't understand a concept then you shouldn't comment on it.
Actually, if you are speaking of the ones written in say Lua, they are code that is executed by the client. Programs? No. But they are executed code, not just static or altered data. They are "running", but within the sandbox created by the client.

Just posting for clarification is all.

[Gunter]

mods/addons are not programs. They Don't "run" while your playing. If you don't understand a concept then you shouldn't comment on it.

yes they do thats how they can react without intraction. like an agro meter. If they did not run in memory they could not function. Unlike a script that must be manually run. They are programs but not bots. I do not know if they are compiled or not though.

From Wikipedia: The terms computer programs, software program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_software), or just program are the instructions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_%28computer_science%29) for a computer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program#cite_note-pis-ch4-p132-0) A computer requires programs to function, and a computer program does nothing unless its instructions are executed by a central processor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_processing_unit).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program#cite_note-osc-ch3-p58-1) Computer programs refer to either an executable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executable) program or the source code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code) from which an executable program is derived (e.g., compiled (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compiler)).

[Gunter]

The edge should come from intelligence and skill. Not having more free time to find the latest and greatest programs that enhance your game.

I agree with your statement. That was the jist of my post you quoted.

[Nerissa]

Not having more free time to find the latest and greatest programs that enhance your game.

Knowledge of a mod propogates like WILDFIRE in gaming communities.

[Gunter]

Knowledge of a mod propogates like WILDFIRE in gaming communities.
And that makes it OK? So does knowledge of the location of drugs and porn. If the mod is an exploiting mod it even travels faster.

[Dregu]

Knowledge of a mod propogates like WILDFIRE in gaming communities.

That may be true, but it doesn't mean I want to take the time to download it, install it, configure it, and keep it updated. I have very limited time that I can devote to games and I don't want to be forced to spend part of that time on mods.

[pewpewarrows]

yes they do thats how they can react without intraction. like an agro meter. If they did not run in memory they could not function. Unlike a script that must be manually run. They are programs but not bots. I do not know if they are compiled or not though.

From Wikipedia: The terms computer programs, software program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_software), or just program are the instructions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_%28computer_science%29) for a computer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program#cite_note-pis-ch4-p132-0) A computer requires programs to function, and a computer program does nothing unless its instructions are executed by a central processor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_processing_unit).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program#cite_note-osc-ch3-p58-1) Computer programs refer to either an executable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executable) program or the source code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code) from which an executable program is derived (e.g., compiled (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compiler)).

Note: I placed bold for emphasis in your top paragraph.

I find that statement of yours a little intriguing. I know that WoW, for example, uses a modified version of Lua. Not all inherent Lua functions are available to WoW Addon Authors. Now, I'm wondering in WAR's case, what would happen if they simply removed the functionality of their Lua implementation to produce data structures. For those unfamiliar with programming, data structures are aspects of a programming language that allow you to store information in an effiecient manner, and do some cool stuff with it.

It's been awhile since I've done any WoW modding. However, in light of your statement I'm going to go back and dig through some existing popular mods, as well as controversial ones, and see what if any impact a Lua sans data structurs would have.

At first glance I'm going to say that I think it would eliminate many controversial aspects of mods in the MMO community. One could no longer have "look-up tables" of spell cooldowns, or aggro skill generation, or the like. It would mean no threat mods, no damage meters, no mod that can see how much health your target has, compare it to a list of known spells and the amount they heal, and then tell you what ability to use... It would, however, still allow prolific use of "safe modding" as I like to call it, which involves general purpose skinning, minimap modifications, new actionbars, new unitframes, etc.

If anyone else reading this has experience with WoW modding, please comment on the above. Like I said I'm pretty rusty at it, and it might be awhile before I reach a conclusion one way or the other.

Either way, thanks you Gunter. You may have stumbled on something great . . .

[Retina]

I'm wondering in WAR's case, what would happen if they simply removed the functionality of their Lua implementation to produce data structures.
This is a very intriguing idea. They are, by definition, using a custom version of Lua since it runs inside the client. More specifically, inside the sandbox created by the client. The Lua code will only have access to the functionality they export via the API. They can no doubt reduce the functionality of Lua itself by restriction which language features are available like, as you said, data structures.

They will have to allow you to create variables, but perhaps only simple types: booleans, integers, floats and strings for example. If they don't allow the creation of complex types like arrays, tables or classes, they would prevent the most questionable mods. They could even remove or just not include string parsing functionality so you can't make an end-run around the restrictions by storing your data as concatenated strings.

This could work. This could really restrict it to mostly cosmetic mods and a few helpers, but prevent, as you said, the more egregious ones from existing in the first place.

[wtnind]

So if someone made a modd that dod MOST f the fighting for you ie decided what skills to use and all you had to do was hit the 1 key and it was publically available than that is cool?

Yes, because I will be better since I dont rely on a list of predetermined responses, no matter how comprehensive they are. Players > Bots in mmorpgs, the only situation bots are better is in FPSes where all they have to worry about is not running into walls and aiming dead on 100% of the time.

LUA is a scripting language, just like php is and asp. But the line between the two is pretty vague, the main important difference is that the end user (that's you buddy) can change it without having to go get the original programs source code from the vendor:

A scripting language, script language or extension language, is a programming language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language) that controls a software application (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_software). "Scripts" are often treated as distinct from "programs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program)", which execute independently from any other application. At the same time they are distinct from the core code of the application, which is usually written in a different language, and by being accessible to the end user (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_user) they enable the behavior of the application to be adapted to the user's needs. Scripts are often, but not always, interpreted from the source code or "semi-compiled" to bytecode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bytecode) which is interpreted, unlike the applications they are associated with, which are traditionally compiled (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compiler) to native machine code for the system on which they run. Scripting languages are nearly always embedded in the application with which they are associated.

P.S. Blocking people from making arrays is retarded, it would just mean somone released a set of functions with a thousand global variables of each type and a bunch of functions to simulate arrays.

All code goes down to simple 1/0 bits and 'if is zero' go to here. You can't reduce the syntax to not support simple datatypes all you can do is prevent API calls for example blizzard removing doesPlayerHaveXBuff functionality.

[ZeppelinJ0]

OMG my head asplode!! No idea what you guys are talking about..... But I like it!! :D

[rottoncotton]

Mods are dangerous. I posted about my flash version of my TOK hooking up with skynet and going back in time to try to kill me. Well skynet is a result of one of my scripting mods. Human race I apologize.

[Bakebehe]

And that makes it OK? So does knowledge of the location of drugs and porn. If the mod is an exploiting mod it even travels faster.


Freely available information to whoever decides to google?
And it's not even talking about the exploiting mod.

Also rottoncotton I would like to see that.

[Roche7]

Most mods dont do anything that gives anyone an advantage. I dont like mods, I only use the ones that clean my UI up normally and for wow I use rating buster because I dont want to use a calculator every time I look at a piece of gear so I know just what it is doing. Only one I use that could be questioned would by omniCC with puts a number display on spell buttons with cooldowns.

For the most part people who require mods to play are not someone I am worried about, if they need the game to tell them how to play I will probably beat them. I dont need mods that tell me what my enemies cooldowns are.

[Zemok]

LOL it's the first time I've heard that one. It is Quoted For Truth.

I do like mods, the ones I mostly use help slim the original UI making a much cleaner appearance and free up screen space

In the later expansions, I want to say they started with the TOA client...DAOC allowed certain mods. Mostly dealing with things like you said...cutting the bloat from the UI and modifying the appearance/adding translucent frames, adding in better quality maps with locations labeled, etc.

I'm pretty sure they will have something similar. I don't think you'll see the ridiculous mods used in WoW that basically play the game for you, that's just stupid/lack of talent, and lazy.

[Teki]

UI skinning is great.

a few simple addons is okay, at best.

having 60 mods to run with your raiding guild, no

[Wiliestrogue]

*EDITED for content*