SW Dual Wield Yes or No? [Archive]

daiominai

04-01-2008, 07:35 PM

Hmmnn...

Seems like most of the votes are from Shadow Warrior haters or are already aligned with choas and similar factions. That's to bad.

I made this poll because I felt that dual wielding suited the Shadow Warrior because of his basic make-up as well as his close proximity to the Dark Elves who naturally dual wield.

I would appreciate that this poll be conducted by future Shadow Warriors and people who can take an unbiased approach with their decisions.

Loekii

04-01-2008, 07:38 PM

No for two reasons:

1. They dont duel-wield in the TT.

2. There are too many duel-wielding, bow using classes in MMOs as it is. It would lessen the Shadow Warrior's distinctiveness.

I agree.

There is no Iconic reason to include it, so it should not.

I can understand that someone may want a DW Shadow Warrior, but there needs to be a more legitimate reason than desire.

daiominai

04-01-2008, 07:55 PM

There is no Iconic reason to include it, so it should not.

I can understand that someone may want a DW Shadow Warrior, but there needs to be a more legitimate reason than desire.

I cannot find any fault within your argument.

Eredhel

04-01-2008, 08:32 PM

I made this poll because I felt that dual wielding suited the Shadow Warrior because of his basic make-up as well as his close proximity to the Dark Elves who naturally dual wield.

You have to remember that Mythic aren't (for the most part anyway) making up classes but taking them from very well-established lore. Shadow Warriors do not duel wield in the TT, so they shouldn't in WAR.

Gemini

04-01-2008, 08:53 PM

ChosenOne

04-01-2008, 09:23 PM

I, as a shadow warrior fan, think you should have included the word SHOULD in your thread title. I thought your question was whether SW will have dual wield capability, not whether or not I want it.

Might have changed my vote the other way but nonetheless it stands as No. Yes, I didnt read the secondary poll title in the thread but oh wells was just skimming it since we already know the truth of this.

Fyrael

04-01-2008, 09:32 PM

I hope to play a Shadow Warrior on release and no, I don't think they should dual wield. For a career that is so focused on the bow, two swords seems a little excessive. Also, carrying two melee weapons plus a bow is a lot of baggage for such a mobile fighter.

*edit* And for the record, in other games I dual wield every chance I get

Eredhel

04-01-2008, 10:00 PM

I think that's a bit short-sighted, eh? It's not like there is something that says "Thou shalt not dual wield", it's just not nessicarily something that happens. I sure wouldn't cosnider it a lore break if they got dual-wielding, just a small thing changed for the MMO.

Oh I agree. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if something isn't in the TT, then it shouldn't be in WAR just for the hell of it or just cos it looks cool. If there is a legitimate gameplay or mechanic reason for it, that's fine. But if it's just on a whim, that should be kept to a very strict minimum. Just my opinion on the subject.

Ronulf

04-02-2008, 02:16 AM

No.
You kill people swiftly and silently with your bow, sticking arrows in their eyes.
And should some poor sod get in melee range of you, you dont need more than one sword to stab through their heart or slice their throat.:wink:

Aelthurian Elthrai

04-02-2008, 05:10 AM

It's a big, fat, unequivocal NO from me. Dual wielding is a dark elf status symbol, so no Shadow Warrior would be seen dead wearing two swords. It would be about as appropriate as giving us summonable panthers....

Matsenius

04-02-2008, 09:21 AM

I cant really see SW run around a big 2h sword though it might work with a little nice elvish design :). Btw I havent played the TT so i whouldent know howe they looked there.

Velryn

04-02-2008, 03:35 PM

Eredhel

04-02-2008, 04:24 PM

I cant really see SW run around a big 2h sword though it might work with a little nice elvish design

No we're talking about duel-wielding: using 2 one-handed weapons, not two-handed weapons. If we did that, then the swordmasters' would be getting peeved :D

Kaeldor

04-03-2008, 12:45 AM

Well I always loved using a bow and dual wielding, however I voted no. This is because the Iconic individual feel of a SW is a sword in one hand, and a bow in the other. Plus since we allready have an assault stance I think it would be a bit Overpowered for SW to have dual wielding. Hell there DPS in melee be close to a MDPS and that is NOT good.

What my twin said (beofre I changed my portrait ...). I really also like the bow & sword look of the SW, kind of special, not yet another dual wielding class.

Matsenius

04-03-2008, 08:02 AM

No we're talking about duel-wielding: using 2 one-handed weapons, not two-handed weapons. If we did that, then the swordmasters' would be getting peeved :D

Ok, my fault miss read :)

Velryn

04-03-2008, 01:00 PM

What my twin said (beofre I changed my portrait ...). I really also like the bow & sword look of the SW, kind of special, not yet another dual wielding class.

Don't worry I had to change my Avatar too, thanks to Eredhel.

Aelthurian Elthrai

04-03-2008, 04:10 PM

Yeah, he got the best one... :mad:

Serves us right for beiing too slow on the draw I guess... ;)

Kaeldor

04-03-2008, 04:19 PM

Don't worry I had to change my Avatar too, thanks to Eredhel.

Yeah that fast sucker >.>

And yes it's the best one, but good that I'm not jealous and totally satisfied with my new choice *cough*. But great that we finally god more, and a lot of nice ones too.

Eredhel

04-03-2008, 05:29 PM

Yeah, he got the best one... :mad:

Serves us right for beiing too slow on the draw I guess... ;)

I got the best one? I thought someone else had this one too though? I can always change it :D

Velryn

04-03-2008, 06:00 PM

I got the best one? I thought someone else had this one too though? I can always change it :D

Yes I did, I had it first but it's ok u can keep it.

ChosenOne

04-03-2008, 08:43 PM

Pff, all you greenies. Look like you are trying to blend in with the greenskins! :p

Eredhel

04-03-2008, 11:28 PM

Pff, all you greenies. Look like you are trying to blend in with the greenskins! :p

No trying to blend in with the surroundings :D

ChosenOne

04-04-2008, 01:31 AM

No trying to blend in with the surroundings :D

Whatever Wood Elf. :p

Eredhel

04-04-2008, 06:41 AM

Whatever Wood Elf. :p

Yes well...with that huge red cloak, you are what we like to call "the bait" :grin:

Aelthurian Elthrai

04-04-2008, 08:59 AM

Blue cloak. Hmmmm... I guess that means I'm only safe if I go for a swim...

ChosenOne

04-04-2008, 11:25 AM

Yes well...with that huge red cloak, you are what we like to call "the bait" :grin:

Exactly, I will lead them right over the hill where the rest of my Clan is lying in wait. Now we may not have stealth but THAT'S what I call an Ambush. ;)

WarGreek01

04-04-2008, 11:33 AM

Eredhel stole my armor while I was sleeping.... dirty :)

Anyhoo this thread is starting to get a bit off topic, so let me attempt to redirect it back in the direction from whence it came:

According to Adam Gershowitz in the TTH video of the SW, our class is not going to be empowered with alot of melee damage (5:09 - 5:23) so the necesity for dual wielding is out. Our melee attacks will be used "to allow him [the SW] to disengage", meaning they are things like snares and knockbacks which only require a 1h weapon to be achieved.

Eredhel

04-04-2008, 05:21 PM

Eredhel stole my armor while I was sleeping.... dirty :)

Hey I'm a Shadow Warrior. I'm SUPPOSED to be sneaky :D

According to Adam Gershowitz in the TTH video of the SW, our class is not going to be empowered with alot of melee damage (5:09 - 5:23) so the necesity for dual wielding is out. Our melee attacks will be used "to allow him [the SW] to disengage", meaning they are things like snares and knockbacks which only require a 1h weapon to be achieved.

Yeah but they're also saying that up against casters Shadow Warriors would do best to close to melee range so I guess we will also have some melee attacks that interrupt casting as well as do some damage.

Velryn

04-04-2008, 05:58 PM

Hey I'm a Shadow Warrior. I'm SUPPOSED to be sneaky :D

Yeah but they're also saying that up against casters Shadow Warriors would do best to close to melee range so I guess we will also have some melee attacks that interrupt casting as well as do some damage.

I miss my avatar D: but I couldn't live with it knowing that another major SW had it (nothing against u Eredhel), I'm just weird like that, I have to have a different Avatar. But yes I'm definitely liking the way this class is playing out. I might even spec Assault as my main spec with Skirmish as my side... maybe.

Eredhel

04-04-2008, 06:57 PM

I miss my avatar D: but I couldn't live with it knowing that another major SW had it (nothing against u Eredhel), I'm just weird like that, I have to have a different Avatar. But yes I'm definitely liking the way this class is playing out. I might even spec Assault as my main spec with Skirmish as my side... maybe.

Assault with skirmish I think could be a very interesting combo. Assault for good melee damage and hindering shots so you can get back to range, skirmishing for once you get back to range but you dont have to go as far to get away to start doing your major damage as the Scouting line. I'm starting to see advantages to every permutation of our mastery lines... :p

Velryn

04-04-2008, 09:58 PM

Assault with skirmish I think could be a very interesting combo. Assault for good melee damage and hindering shots so you can get back to range, skirmishing for once you get back to range but you dont have to go as far to get away to start doing your major damage as the Scouting line. I'm starting to see advantages to every permutation of our mastery lines... :p

Indeed, I foresee alot of skillfulness for our class (at least those of us that think), and a few idiots screaming out "OP OP!!!!!" When we just spent months before the game planning our strategies to wtfpwn these said idiots.

Kaeldor

04-04-2008, 10:16 PM

Eredhel

04-05-2008, 12:35 AM

What is also cool, is that it'll be probalby hard for the opponents to figure out what kind of SW they are faceing. Is that the one who wants to run away from you, or is he just about to stick his sword into your face. I'd hate to play against a class like that.

Hmmm...I didn't think of that :twisted: Unless you can tell which skills the Shadow Warrior is using, it would be hard to know how they are specced and hence, how best to tackle them. I like it!

Aelthurian Elthrai

04-05-2008, 07:01 AM

Hmmm...I didn't think of that :twisted: Unless you can tell which skills the Shadow Warrior is using, it would be hard to know how they are specced and hence, how best to tackle them. I like it!

Which is exactly why I'm desperately trying to avoid talking about speccing, so that certain Druchii won't be able to know how to pwn me when they see me... ;)

Raizen

04-05-2008, 07:33 AM

No Elves should just die in a hole and stop complaining. I have to ride a disc A DISC I TELL YOU...

I LOL'd at the mental image of mass elves sitting in narrow 8 foot deep holes scrabbling to get out. It was like playing Bop the Gopher or whatever that stupid game is called.

Walter Black

04-05-2008, 07:40 AM

I LOL'd at the mental image of mass elves sitting in narrow 8 foot deep holes scrabbling to get out. It was like playing Bop the Gopher or whatever that stupid game is called.

Whack-A-Mole!

Among other things, Shadow Warriors can run and shoot, something no other ranged DPS class in WAR can do. Letting them dual wield swords on top of that just screams overpowered.

ChosenOne

04-05-2008, 09:53 AM

I LOL'd at the mental image of mass elves sitting in narrow 8 foot deep holes scrabbling to get out. It was like playing Bop the Gopher or whatever that stupid game is called.

Oh come on, we all know its the dwarves that are gopher like. Both dig tunnels, both have bad teeth, oh and there is always the size thing. ;)

Raizen

04-05-2008, 10:01 AM

Oh come on, we all know its the dwarves that are gopher like. Both dig tunnels, both have bad teeth, oh and there is always the size thing. ;)

I'm going to need a bigger Book of Grudges. . .

Elves are ultimately the most Gopher like. They both need to be whacked :cool:

SeDevri

04-05-2008, 10:41 AM

I agree.

There is no Iconic reason to include it, so it should not.

I can understand that someone may want a DW Shadow Warrior, but there needs to be a more legitimate reason than desire.

There is also no legitimate reason for the Disciple or the Zealot class according to lore reasons anyway but they are there right?

Now i'm not saying i think they should be able to wield two swords or anything but in the videos i've seen they seem to wield their bows in their off hand in melee combat. So ask yourself why? why not just stow it in CC? Maybe they get the ability to use some of their ranged combat abilities in CC, like if their opponent if stunned or something they can use their bow at point blank rather than having to get a distance away?(correct me if classes can do this anyway) maybe its a special ability of one of their masteries for all we know?

Just throwing some alternate ideas to the duel wield fans out there of which i am one.

Saleen

04-05-2008, 03:09 PM

I voted No since I dont think it would fit the class very well. The SW is flexible and fast, and i dont think it would be very good with 2 swords, it would make him/her a little bit too clumsy. Dont get me wrong, I still want the SW to be skilled with the sword and do decent dmg.

Aelthurian Elthrai

04-05-2008, 05:27 PM

in the videos i've seen they seem to wield their bows in their off hand in melee combat. So ask yourself why? why not just stow it in CC?

Gameplay aside, it would be because it actually takes a while to stow a bow, and as the SW will potentially be switching between ranged and melee frequently. It would be limiting to have put the bow over a shoulder each time the SW wanted to melee, and would increase time between each combat style. For me, dual wielding is as inappropriate to an archer as using a shield and sword combo (I'm talking large shields here, not bucklers and the like before people start throwing historical examples of shield using archers at me...) as both increase the equipment load of what is essentially a light skirmisher/harrier for relatively little gain in combat efficiency over a single sword style, especially when a bow in the off-hand can be used to parry if needed.

Gameplay reasons... hmmmmm. I'm not sure dual wielding would overpower the class, because of one thing: animation length. Different lengths of animations would impact on the mode switching that the Shadow Warrior employs. As an animation where the SW puts away their bow and draws two swords would take longer than one where they simply keep hold of their bow and draw a sword when engaging in assault mode, it is likely that a longer animation would mean slower reaction times to enexpected melee and therefore less chance of successfully using an escape move or the like and so lowering survivability of the SW. It wouldn't necessarily overpower the class if their melee was better because of using two blades, as any melee class that managed to close before a SW could draw both swords would be able to get in a few extra hits. I personallly would prefer the shorter animation and therefore faster switch times as it reinforces the class adaptability - the very thing I chose the SW for.

Other than my gameplay and 'realism' related objections to dual-wielding Shadow Warriors, I personally feel the sword and bow in each hand is far more iconic and striking an image than a sword in each hand - each WAR class is based on a certain 'silhouette', and looking at a dual-wielding silhouette would make most players think either 'Dark-Elf' or 'Legolas', both of which are very un-Aesanar...

Eredhel

04-05-2008, 05:33 PM

Other than my gameplay and 'realism' related objections to dual-wielding Shadow Warriors, I personally feel the sword and bow in each hand is far more iconic and striking an image than a sword in each hand - each WAR class is based on a certain 'silhouette', and looking at a dual-wielding silhouette would make most players think either 'Dark-Elf' or 'Legolas', both of which are very un-Aesanar...

I think a bow and sword combo looks just as awesome. Look at the mark of chaos intro and you'll see that it's not the number of weapons you have, but the way you use it :D (I know he doesn't have a bow in the other hand but the point is the single sword).

And yes, Shadow warriors keep their bow in their off-hand because you never know when you'll have to loose an arrow in the middle of a fight.

Hurkatan

04-05-2008, 08:38 PM

being able to DW shouldnt be overused like some other game i know... anyways i feel enough careers can DW as it is and should be left that way for variety's sake.

SeDevri

04-05-2008, 09:10 PM

And i agree with what your all saying that Duel wielding two swords isnt how the SW generally works, but i think it would be fair for them to have to CC only bow attacks, like say a Snap Shot that would also add to their versatility as well as work with lore and game play.

Eredhel

04-05-2008, 09:54 PM

SeDevri

04-06-2008, 03:22 AM

You know....after all this discussion about duel-wielding, I just looked in the newest HE army book...and they have a picture of a Shadow Warrior duel-wielding :p It's on page 23 if anyone has the book.

Your quite right, i never noticed it myself, but now that i go back and look all the SW models have a sword AND a dagger on them....who knows? Maybe its a high level ability or something?

But either way, i'm not too worried about it cause i like the SWs and i'm going to play one either way as either main or main alt....though it would be cool to be able to snap off a powerful bow attack in the middle of CC if you ask me heh.

Aelthurian Elthrai

04-07-2008, 11:35 AM

Warmaster tibs

04-07-2008, 02:09 PM

I dont want the SW to duel wield because it will make us look like even bugger legolas wanna-bes.

Saija Rii

04-07-2008, 02:18 PM

You have to remember that Mythic aren't (for the most part anyway) making up classes but taking them from very well-established lore. Shadow Warriors do not duel wield in the TT, so they shouldn't in WAR.

Would Shadow Warriors be expelled from their order if they dual wielded. If yes, then sure, no dual wielding, but if no, then why the hell not?

You can convert a shadow warrior and model him to dual wield. Sure, he won't have the dual wielding bonus, but he technically still dual wields.

If lore allows, there needs to be lots of OPTIONS! Besides, I want my Drizzt do'Urden! J/k... ;)\

Edit: It seems the new rulebook features dual wielding Shadow Warriors... case closed.

being able to DW shouldnt be overused like some other game i know... anyways i feel enough careers can DW as it is and should be left that way for variety's sake.

Then go against the flow and don't dual wield. I for one thing a single blade, either one handed or two, is cooler then dual wielding anyway. If I make a shadow warrior he will probably use a single blade.

We need options, and I don't think variety should be enforced on players, yes it needs to be there, but if the majority of shadow warriors want to dual wield, then deal with it.

I dont want the SW to duel wield because it will make us look like even bugger legolas wanna-bes.

Then don't dual wield. Besides, LEGOLAS DIDN'T INVENT DUAL-WIELDING! You can dual wield and not be a Legolas wannabe, if someone assumes you suck just because 'lolhedualwieldsfrikkenwannabe' then they are just ignorant. For that matter, take two handed swords away from swordmasters, Aragorn used a two hander. Take hammers away from hammerers because they are obviously viking wannabes. Take away the cool hats, guns and blades from witch hunters because that just screams Van Helsing wannabe.

Eredhel

04-07-2008, 04:57 PM

Edit: It seems the new rulebook features dual wielding Shadow Warriors... case closed.

Actually it's just a piece of artwork. There is nothing in the actual unit listing about duel-wielding for Shadow Warriors.

but if the majority of shadow warriors want to dual wield, then deal with it.
Well according to this poll, they dont :D. But it's not up to us. It's up to Mythic and I doubt we would change their minds when the argument is "but it looks cool!" :p

Besides, LEGOLAS DIDN'T INVENT DUAL-WIELDING! No, but sadly that is the point of reference that popular culture uses now.

For that matter, take two handed swords away from swordmasters, Aragorn used a two hander. Take hammers away from hammerers because they are obviously viking wannabes. Except that the image of Aragorn and Vikings are much more divorced from Swordmasters and Hammerers than Shadow Warriors are from Legolas (i.e. both are bow-wielding elves, wear green, can fight with blades if necessary).

Take away the cool hats, guns and blades from witch hunters because that just screams Van Helsing wannabe.Actually given that Warhammer is 25 years old, Helsing is a Witch Hunter wannabe :D. But I see your point. The difference between the Helsing/Witch Hunter and the Legolas/Shadow Warrior comparisons though is that to make Witch Hunters less like Helsing, you would have to take away what makes them iconic (the hat, gun and sword) which would ruin the class. Whereas for Shadow Warriors, by giving them something extra that has no real grounding in the established lore (i.e. duel-wield), you would be taking away from their distinctiveness and make them more like Legolas (and duel-wielding Druchii too)....I hope that makes sense :)

Saija Rii

04-07-2008, 05:28 PM

Actually given that Warhammer is 25 years old, Helsing is a Witch Hunter wannabe :D. But I see your point. The difference between the Helsing/Witch Hunter and the Legolas/Shadow Warrior comparisons though is that to make Witch Hunters less like Helsing, you would have to take away what makes them iconic (the hat, gun and sword) which would ruin the class. Whereas for Shadow Warriors, by giving them something extra that has no real grounding in the established lore (i.e. duel-wield), you would be taking away from their distinctiveness and make them more like Legolas (and duel-wielding Druchii too)....I hope that makes sense :)

It does. Very good argument. But... I do still support dual wielding. Lets agree to disagree.

Eredhel

04-07-2008, 06:56 PM

It does. Very good argument. But... I do still support dual wielding. Lets agree to disagree.

Agreed. Ahhhhhh, High Elf civility...at least to one another :D

ChosenOne

04-07-2008, 10:08 PM

Wait, wait WAIT! Why does everyone buy into this Legolas crap. Do you always buy into such weak propaganda?

Legolas was a bad . No argument to it. If someone wants to emulate that then so be it.

The real issue is people don't like elves and use the legolas name as a rally cry because he was so bad and that goes against their ideal of elves.

So if you have a problem with being compared to legolas then you have a problem being compared to elves and thus you shouldn't play an elf, PERIOD.

There is nothing wrong with dual wielding and looking like legolas. If I could play this game and come off looking like him that would rock.

Just watch him, he does remind me of a shadow warrior. He had amazing accuracy at range. He slid down a damn stairwell on a shield while firing, can anyone find me a better example of Skirmish? When the enemy closed in he beat with his two swords. Hello Melee path?

Face it, he was a shadow warrior in a different world. If you cant handle that then don't play one. Grow a spine and do not let the ignorant nay-sayers get to you.

Eredhel

04-07-2008, 10:58 PM

Emulating is fine...trying to be them is another thing entirely :D

For me, it's not specifically about Legolas per say. It's the accusation of being uncreative that bugs me. If someone said a human character of mine was emulating Aragorn, I would be just as annoyed. But this is from the perspective of an RP'er.

The real issue is people don't like elves and use the legolas name as a rally cry because he was so bad and that goes against their ideal of elves.

Then the real question is where has this "ideal" of elves come from? I suspect that it is the corruption of the word "elf" into the plastic, commericalised version (santa claus I'm looking in your direction) that we have today that is the problem. The term has been divorced from the original meaning in ancient mythologies (norse etc.). I mean, in any serious fantasy world, elves kick in one way or another.

Also, and I am fully aware that I am probably going to open a huge can of worms here, but in my experience, it seems to be the more immature people who have a problem with elves (note that this has nothing to do with age as I know some very immature 40 year olds).

ChosenOne

04-08-2008, 12:17 AM

To me its a fear that one might look weak or "less manly" if they like elves. I could care less when folks who have no desire to play an elf act like that. I have grown quite used to ignorance in the real world so its no big deal to deal with it here.

But when you got players who want to play elves buying into such then that strikes me as pretty damn weak. Stand up for the class you want to play and the race. You just might find it actually helps you out in life when you find you need to stand for something despite what the "crowd" is saying.

Gemini

04-08-2008, 01:04 AM

Aye! Me and ChosenOne (more so him for obvious reasons) both got a bit of flack for choosing Shadow Warriors when they released the info. How very unorcy and unchaosy to want to play an elf with a bow and a sword. But you know what, this is the god damn coolest elf with a bow and a sword I have ever seen playable in any game in memory! And you know what, yeah, sometimes I like playing Elves. If you don't like Elves, good for you, but can we please stop acting like idiots when other people want to play that race we don't like?

Dastion

04-08-2008, 01:12 AM

Just because someone votes the way you don't like does not make them shadow warrior haters or potential destruction players.

I think the Shadow Warrior is better with the 1hander because of how he fights, switching between sword and bow fluidly. Though from what we've seen they seem to put their bow on their backs when they fight, I think it's possible to see them draw the sword and keep their bow in one hand, allowing them to quickly sheath the sword and begin drawing arrows again without unslinging the bow.

SeDevri

04-08-2008, 02:13 AM

Gemini

04-08-2008, 02:26 AM

Heres a thought, what if they gave SW dual wield, but at a cost, like he can only use daggers rather than swords? ya he gets to dual wield but doesn't put out as much dmg with each hit, while a sword user would do more dmg but more slowly. that would balance it and still give people the option right?

But Shadow Warriors use swords and bows, thats what they do, it is their perfered method to inflict their vengence upon their dark kin. And they tend to (though not always) using a single sword. Dual-wielding knives would be going against their iconic look in two ways, when neither are at all nessecary. If they want less damage per hit, dual-wielding or otherwise, then they can just make it so because all weapons are class specific. So Shadow Warrior swords just wouldn't be quite as strong as say a Witch Hunter's sword, which I expect to happen anyway.

Personally, I wish there were more classes in more games where a single one-handed weapon with no off-hand was a pheasible choice.

Gorrr

04-08-2008, 04:30 AM

Since it appears that Shadow Warriors will not dual wield swords I thought EA Mythic would appreciate a poll from future Shadow Warriors on the matter.

No, and never.

Gawain

05-01-2008, 10:23 PM

Has it been officially confirmed either way? (link?) As recently as the Feb. 08 Newsletter, they describe them as DWing and the SW weapon loadout maintained by Mythic shows this: http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/newsletter/2008_02/cinematic03.jpg

Cheers

murkrow

05-02-2008, 01:30 PM

Zefi

05-03-2008, 11:55 PM

Bartimeaus

05-05-2008, 10:16 AM

Hmm maybe i missed something but doesnt the screenshots from the new cinematic show two short swords and a bow?
And just for my personal clarity can someone link where they said they weren't allowing SW to dual?
thanks in advance folks

Velryn

05-05-2008, 12:20 PM

i dont know why you guys are complaining about dual weilding, Remember that you are a character not a normal unit. Think Noble, what is the first option for melee.... extra hand weapon. Plus i can imagine that they will be drawing from Wood Elves as well as High Elves for Shadow Warriors. Waywatchers dual wield and use a bow with killing blow. While their scouts are like our Shadow Warriors... just a little bit better. But you also forget dual wielding does not mean massive ammout of damage, most of our moves are ranged not melee. Think Ranger in WoW, their melee lacks in damage (pratically no one uses it except to wing clip then use ranged again) Even if we get dual wield no one will be using it except soloing NPCs.

But not all players are nobles, and why would they take from Wood Elves when they have all they need from the Shadow Warrior TT. Also you are thinking of the Hunter in WoW, there is no such thing as a WoW ranger. Also Shadow Warriors have an entire spec devoted to melee. Of course they will still be focusing on their bows, but Assault Shadow Warriors will be stunning and using melee skills mostly so when they get in melee they can do some damage, stun and get back.

gecko155

05-12-2008, 09:15 PM

Weeell if we are gonna complain about sticking to Warhammer Fantasy Battle TT game, then we need to to mythic as I am sure you all realize that the Swordmaster of Hoeth can indeed drop his greatsword of hoeth (TRAVESTY) and use a long sword and shield.
I thought it was REALLY odd, but it makes sense mechanically as he is indeed the tank. Frankly I think the pheonix guard would have made a WAY cooler tank and the Swordmaster a nice MDPS unit. 8D
Don't pull fiction on me either, because swordmasters are defenders of Hoeth, not a unit specifically intended to go out to war. Phoenix guard are defenders of the shrine of Asuryan and therefor are the same thing, but they do go out to war sometimes.

anywho.

SO Shadow warrior dual wielding.
Naaah.
Reason?
High elf long swords tend to stick to a leaf blade, double edge style which more or less, to me, looks retarded when dual wielded. Besides that they have pretty nice length and dual wielding is actually not that great... see if you have a set DPS limit in CC then basically if you dual wield.. you cut down the DPH and up the attack speed.
So that one or two hits you are supposed to get in for snaring the enemy... does even less damage than with one blade.

And if you look at it, War is trying to be very real in their mechanics.
Look at the quests... those random things. Bears!
If you get the refference, KUDOS!
If not, go find it. ;D

Anyhow.

They try to be real and so it seems to me that having two swords is a hinderance. A warrior can more easily switch to a single sword, as a bow is only 2 hands to FIRE and not to hold, rather than two swords, unless you plan on pulling one out, throwing it in the enemy's eye (Prince of persia anyone?) and pullnig out the other to hold onto as a keepsake of battle.
And so the price of fine elven craftsmanship is suddenly stared at with inquiries and question marks as it seems their warriors LOVE to just -throw- their perfectly good weapons.
*nod nod*

Edmond Dantes

05-13-2008, 02:24 AM

First a couple of points about the Sword Masters.

Them not being made to use the greatsword is not a travesty; Sword Masters are entirely capable of killing their enemies quickly and efficiently with any kind of weapon, it is entirely plausible that some Sword Masters are more comfortable and proficient with a longsword and shield; itself a dangerous weapon when used properly.

They wield the greatsword when they form regiments to go to war, where it is easier to fight as a single body when they are all similarly armed. On that topic; after the Navy, the Sword Masters are the first to answer the call when Ulthuan is threatened.

You will find this in most places on these forums, but I'll reiterate here. The Phoenix Guard would make a great tank, if it weren't for the fact that they are magically bound never to speak*. While the Phoenix Guard do go to war when commanded, they are too few in number for a Commander to hope for their help.

Back on topic, I don't see why Shadow Warriors should have an option to carry extra melee weapons when they are ultimately a RDPS class. Their melee attacks should, and as far as I can tell do, help the Shadow Warrior keep safe on the front lines, where they will be a tempting target for the enemy.

*The exception here is the Captain, who is allowed to speak should he be mortally wounded; the result being that Asuryan will strike down the Captain's killer.

gecko155

05-13-2008, 05:30 AM

Indeed. Good points there my friend about the phoenix guard. : D
For the record, though, I was being a bit sarcastic about the Travesty. Portrayed it poorly is all. Haha.

Yea the whole dual wield thing never made sense to me for a RANGED DPS class.
Besides it is so overdone now.

c_vadnais

05-21-2008, 12:07 PM

Besides it is so overdone now.

QFT...

the problem is people somehow think more=better when it comes to weapons. Its not, dual weilding is difficult to do properly and someone like an archer (in my own opinion) shouldn't be proficient enough in melee to be able to pick up two swords and swing them well.

Besides, if you really DO think more is better, would dual wielding M16's make you shoot better? of course not, it just gives you more ammo to miss with. While its an odd metaphor its still valid. Two can be good in the right hands, but to the average person one is all they need to get the job done.

Korta Galathil

05-24-2008, 12:10 AM

For some reason I have always imagined Shadow Warriors to have their issue sword, probably a Long or short sword, plus at least one dagger. Looking at it having two short swords would be fine, not too powerful. IF they cannot dual wield I may have to consider what class I play. I like using ranged but I also like getting stuck in there.

Hey even if the make dual wielding weak, I would still do it. ( as in lower damage but more frequent attacks)

Though as long as we can do things like this I'll be happy... this is far cooler than anything Legolas could do: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e3pOljQqvX8 (check 2:35 to about 3:00)

Gemini

05-24-2008, 01:32 AM

I'm sure they'd have a dagger or some sort of knife, thats rather important for the wilderness. But it's so rare now-a-days to have an empty hand, I like the idea of a plain one-hander for the SW.

Korta Galathil

05-24-2008, 09:16 AM

I can see the appeal of a single Handweapon, I'm sort of fine with it as longs as I can do things like that elf on the Mark of Chaos Trailer...

Willstar

05-28-2008, 03:48 AM

Personally, I think a single handed weapon would be good as well. Better, even, than the constant 'you should ALWAYS have something in both hands' thing...

It's almost always like that, it's like, two single weapons, two hand weapons, single and shield... dagger and skull? What's wrong with an open hand, seriously? ;)

BeldarinSkysabre

05-30-2008, 11:23 AM

I don't really want dual wield. Done that too many times. However, I also don't want a shield. So to me, the options are really either a single 1h blade, or a 2h blade. Bow in one hand sword in the other seems...inefficient because of the obvious lack of chemistry between sharp objects and bow strings. Also, a bow is a moderately fragile object that swinging it around in melee doesn't seem a good idea. But yes, two swords and a bow seems rather cumbersome, but then, doesn't 6-8 bags full of stuff?

In summary, I want
-One sword (1h or 2h works for me)
-A Bow
-See Above

Sunfang

05-30-2008, 01:44 PM

Nasty Elves.

I hope your bow strings break and my squig eats your icky face.

Calys

06-06-2008, 11:40 PM

I can almost picture someplace further up the Assault tree that they have a DW specialty, one that does not take away from your MDPS but instead adds the damage on top of that with an off-hand weapon. Guess we will find out.

And I know swords are all the "elven" thing, but why not a hand axe? Aren't SWs used to living in the wilderness, setting up ambushes, and doing all that other woodsy, outdoorsman-like stuff?

Sojhin

06-06-2008, 11:48 PM

I would appreciate that this poll be conducted by future Shadow Warriors and people who can take an unbiased approach with their decisions.

By having that group of people comment it would hardly be unbiased and objective would it?

Thats like asking The Chosen players would they like "Super-Mega Armor of Doom (cannot be killed)" they are hardly going to say no now are they.

Bane The Feared

06-07-2008, 11:11 AM

I voted yes, simply because it makes more sense for SW to DW than any other class. Why? Because DWing takes a ton of dexterity to do, and who would have more Dexterity than an archer?

Apocalis

06-07-2008, 11:38 AM

I vote yes!

Can we use Two handed swords? Just using a single 1H sword seems lame imo.

Eredhel

06-11-2008, 04:14 AM

I vote yes!

Can we use Two handed swords? Just using a single 1H sword seems lame imo.

No we can't

And no it's not lame. We're just so good we don't need two :D

Bane The Feared

06-11-2008, 09:09 AM

DW is already in for SW, according to the latest SW class video.

$henanigan$

06-11-2008, 10:34 AM

DW is already in for SW, according to the latest SW class video.

Uhh, what?

Bane The Feared

06-11-2008, 05:12 PM

Uhh, what?

Just realized he isnt DWing, he has a bow in one had and a sword in another...seems kinda silly.

Eredhel

06-11-2008, 07:29 PM

Just realized he isnt DWing, he has a bow in one had and a sword in another...seems kinda silly.

No it makes sense. Shadow Warriors keep their bow in their hand during melee so that they can switch back to it at a moment's notice instead of having to get it off their back (or where ever else they keep it) :D

$henanigan$

06-11-2008, 09:58 PM

Just realized he isnt DWing, he has a bow in one had and a sword in another...seems kinda silly.

Thought I missed something major there.

BeldarinSkysabre

06-21-2008, 03:13 PM

Having a bow in melee combat is a terrible idea, actually.

One stray sword stroke cuts the bow string. Then what do you do? You don't sit down and restring your bow in the middle of combat, that's for sure.

Having a bow and sword out at same time is probably just mechanics being incomplete. The switch from one to the other could very well have just not been implemented at the time.

I don't really want to dual wield just because bow classes always dual wield. I want a two-hand sword. But I'll be content with whatever comes, because SW don't focus on the sword. That's most of what I want.

Danielsan

07-15-2008, 11:54 PM

Big two-handers always seemed more fun on arrow classes anyway.

Eredhel

07-17-2008, 12:57 AM

Having a bow and sword out at same time is probably just mechanics being incomplete. The switch from one to the other could very well have just not been implemented at the time.

Maybe but I doubt it. Look at the miniatures from the tabletop game. SW's there have their bow in one hand and their sword in the other.

Ambrosiah

07-20-2008, 08:43 AM

No. I don't anything about Warhammer lore, but I'm pretty certain the shadow warrior isn't supposed to dual wield. It would be too rogueish imo.

seirios

07-20-2008, 10:37 PM

i dunno about the SW lore, but it makes more sence to me to see an agile, stealthy, hit'n'run class wield 2 short swords rather one big 2h-sword

Zakat

07-21-2008, 01:45 AM

They do not dual wield.

azxel

08-05-2008, 05:52 AM

IF they do Dual Wield, then it should be one short sword and one dagger... Personally, I'm fine with either... but if SW were to dual wield, I'd expect some tweaking in the stats... less damage in range but more damage in melee and for the single sword SW, more damage in range and less in melee... that would provide more options for classes.

Meridas

08-05-2008, 11:21 PM

No. It just wouldn't seem right.

Black Guard

08-12-2008, 01:15 AM

Since it appears that Shadow Warriors will not dual wield swords I thought EA Mythic would appreciate a poll from future Shadow Warriors on the matter.

The idea of SW's dual wielding is cool, but I dont think its gonna happen.:(

FenixStryk

08-12-2008, 01:26 AM

The SW is a Ranged DPS class. There's no reason for an RDPS to be using two swords.

Kungo

08-12-2008, 02:24 AM

edit: possible NDA leak

i vote for 1 handed.

Kaeldor

08-12-2008, 03:17 AM

There shouldn't be any controversity here anymore. They don't. I doubt it's even a NDA break, as anyone who played on a convention could confirm that.

SWCrux

08-12-2008, 12:15 PM

Would I like to see the SW have a DW option?
Yes.
For a couple of reasons.
It doesn't take any longer to pull out a single sword than it does to draw a sword and dagger. So the time thing goes out the window. The only argument there is you would be drawing your sword with one hand while putting away your bow with the other. Which is valid until you consider there is a 10 second gap between stances. If you can't stow your bow and pull two weapons in ten seconds then you don't have the necessary dexterity to walk let alone fight.

Next, I can't imagine fighting with an empty offhand. You gain some grappling, true. But you forgo any sort of offhand blocking or attack minus a jab. If you face someone using a sword and shield or two weapons and all you have is a single you will feel pretty naked. You don't have to take my word for it, just think about it for a second. They will have more defense than you or more attack possibilities than you. Is that a situation you would be comfortable with?

Also, we are playing an elven class. Characters that are universally known for their dexterity. Are we to believe that, knowing these characters as we do, they can't manage to control a second weapon? I'm just a human in RL and I can control one just fine thanks. I like to think that my fantasy based elf can do a little more than I.

I think a good option would be to allow an offhand weapon that is considered small, and/or a small to medium shield. A dagger, main-gauche, buckler, medium round shield, ect... That way we could emulate a combatant with a clue rather than a LARP'er with a Errol Flynn complex.

tldr version - Fighting with an empty offhand is gimping yourself. Why would you choose to go into battle that way?

Crux.

Rolland

08-24-2008, 05:15 PM

So the High Elf girl shone to be dual wielding and finishing with a bow in the Opening Trailer isn't based on a Shadow Warrior? Humm...disappointing :(

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/38372.html

I enjoyed playing a SW briefly today and had hoped that DW would be a skill to be earned later on, I liked using the bow to draw mobs in and finish them with my blade.

Great video, just inaccurate (apparently), lots of folks seem to of thought that the SWs could, now we're hearing no.

Disappointment and questions abound lol

There should be a dual wield skill for the SW imo

Could do any number of things to still keep them in check dps wise...

Unless the "lore" doesn't support it, but if that's the case then they should of never portrayed in that way in the video.

Just my thinking on the subject heh

Regards & Good hunting!

1zabest

08-24-2008, 07:06 PM

SW should not get to DW, we should get a small dagger and a bow.

Daggers = sexy

Shoota

08-25-2008, 07:45 AM

I'd just be happy to see the bow stay in my left hand all the time.

Maleficus Sadi

08-25-2008, 09:14 AM

SWCrux hit my opinion right on the nail, so glad he typed it all out and I didn't have to xD.

Tbh, I'm terribly disappointed I can't dual-wield. When I first read that (I've been wanting to play a Shadow Warrior since they were announced) I almost Q_Q'd so hard I wanted to /reroll favored class.

And what the crap? It is against lore? Wtf cares? Since when do you have 10,000 soldiers who all use the same weapon or use the same fighting style? That's just fraking stupid and a pretty lame argument.

Give me a Main-Gauche and I'll be happy. Or at leaset a fluxing shield. If I don't get *something* to go into that hand I'm going to be pissed. And like SWCrux said, having an open hand is completely stupid. Unless you're wielding one big arse sword...

Oh yeah... and you know what? If Mythic wants to take away dual-wielding. FINE. But since you already put it in your main trailer you frak'd up and I want my DW'ing now damnit xD.

skyR

08-25-2008, 11:05 AM

Please give SW dual wield =(

SWCrux

08-25-2008, 12:30 PM

After thinking about it for a bit, maybe the following would be a good system..

Scout stance, normal bow animation. But with a normal arc to the shot and without the 45 degree angle on the bow.

Skirmish stance, Angled bow or side shot to show that you are less worried about good form and more concerned about speed.

Assault stance, Long Sword and light offhand weapon or smaller shield to show you are going in close to get dirty with the meatshields.

I really don't care for the idea of having your bow in the offhand during melee. I'm not normally concerned with immersion, but that breaks it for me instantly. One decent hit to your bow and the next time you pull it might surprise you with a loud crack. Not to mention your string getting cut.

Crux.

Onslaught411

08-25-2008, 12:38 PM

Where the hell are people comming from trying to get dual weild on a RDPS? They have clearly statd this class is only suppsed to melee as a last measure, not as a primary form of DPS.

Personally, I think its fine as is. I can't fathom why people want to dual wield considering 1. we do fine dmg in assult mode even w/o points in it or dual weidl 2. if we have DW i'd wager we get nerfed in under a month 3. every little 12 year old kid will roll the class b/c we're "l33t kool" 4. did I mention I don't want the class nered by Mythic (who has a bad rep for this)? Ya that.

The only thing I think would be cool would be is if they increased the size of the sword (not to SM size) and we weilded it with 2h. It's a 1h sword but we hold it with 2 kinda like the elves in LoTR (ya I know bad ref and makes me sound 12 :P but they did look cool).

SWCrux

08-25-2008, 12:58 PM

1zabest

08-25-2008, 04:02 PM

Find a friend. Have that friend hold two sticks, sword and dagger, sword and shield, whatever.. then stand in front of him with a single stick, sword whatever. I guaranfreakingtee you will feel naked. It will go through your mind, Damn, he can block or attack with his offhand and all i can do with mine is hope to grab him.

Even better: stand 20m away from your friend and throw multiple sticks at him. That is what the SW is for, not holding two sticks and trying to poke people in the face.

Onslaught411

08-25-2008, 06:56 PM

I think you have the idea that DW is desired for more damage.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me that isn't the case. I just believe that a single weapon looks pretty damn ignorant. I could care less if it does extra damage in this game. And would strongly oppose it adding melee damage for us. We are primarily ranged after all.
Read back in the thread, there have been many good responses so far. If you still favor a single weapon please just do this.. Find a friend. Have that friend hold two sticks, sword and dagger, sword and shield, whatever.. then stand in front of him with a single stick, sword whatever. I guaranfreakingtee you will feel naked. It will go through your mind, Damn, he can block or attack with his offhand and all i can do with mine is hope to grab him.
However, the game is nearly out and they chose a single weapon approach so it is pretty much moot at this point.

Crux.

This is a troll right? You're saying that all classes should dual weild b/c if you don't you feel naked? You of course realize we aren't "naked" b/c he uses his other hand to switch the bow back and forth if you're really going to "crux" your argument around this stuff. Plus, this is a game where you can get arrows to the head and fireballs in the back, die, and respawn 25 seconds later. I don't think "realism" is a key component of games.

To the other point, of doing the same damage as 1h weapon...why is this neccessary? Why cut the dmg in half of our already weak swords and force us to buy/find two rather than the one. Why attract all the 9 year olds who think DW is cool when we work fine as is?

Point is, there is no logical reason for DW to be in game for SW that doesn't find itself stemming from a desire to be the "uber" class that can do everything well so we never have to worry about issues we run into during the game.

1zabest

08-25-2008, 07:03 PM

Also if you're going for 'realistic' you have to remember that SW is a light and agile class... carrying around a bow, and TWO swords would be a major hindrance. Hence another reason why I feel it should be bow + dagger (damage kept the same as it is currently though) as a dagger is much more suited to the SW class IMO.

Primalvampyre

09-23-2008, 02:49 PM

The animation for close combat should just keep our Bow in the left hand
and/or use our bow as our 2nd melee weapon.

dubu

09-23-2008, 02:56 PM

i dif dont want duel but it would be funny if we could throw in a punch for 5damage. do elfs even punch? or crack someone of the head with the bow limb.

kiangsee

09-23-2008, 03:47 PM

i think dual weild - no
but i dont see a reason why they couldnt use a 2h weapon or at the very least utilize their left hand for something, whip? sling? even a buckler which technically a shield is so small as to be effective in pve situations where you pull more than 1 mob accidentally.

i like my shadow warrior, just dinged 16 last night, and although im "whining" about the slight lack of dps, i still like the class.

i think a few small mods would make it viable against the other rdps.

make bh 100" like the other shots
maybe increase takedown to 80" or so, beyond melee snare but inside bw snare.

and wp needs a serious fix, im already tired of wp a pve mob that hits too hard and running away and having the mob follow me for 6 secs then port back to the wp spot.

ps sorc and other casters need quick fixing, 3 sec cast spell and if you go los the spell still goes off, all my 2 sec abilities cancel if someone goes los. why are casters different?

Witterquick

09-24-2008, 07:01 AM

I'll admit I do not know the lore but I cannot ignore that fact that there is whole tree devouted to melee dps. There must be a reason. So forget about about the lore and the trailer. If Mythic planned on viable melee dps spec for SW then dual wielding seems logical.

Ero Elohim

09-24-2008, 09:39 AM

The animation for close combat should just keep our Bow in the left hand
and/or use our bow as our 2nd melee weapon.

That would actually be really cool. As long as the Shadow Warrior is in combat, he holds the bow in his left hand and a sword in his right. Would give more of that "ready for anything" look.

However, as to the idiots talking about "just give us something in the other hand," have you morons never heard of fencing? Y'know, entire styles of fighting devoted to one-handed swordsmanship? Pop culture and World of Warcraft have taken Dual Wielding to this ridiculous level. It's an extremely ineffective way of fighting. Even the man most well-known for his dual-wielding style, Miyamoto Musashi, declared it as only a small option in a warrior's arsenal.

As far as I know, no soldier, militia, or military force in history armed themselves with two swords. (I'm sure someone will pull some obscure wikipedia reference out at me, though.) It's unwieldy and ineffective in actual combat. Stop asking for it based on the fact that it's "silly to have an open hand."

Rekuja

09-24-2008, 10:07 AM

wait wait wait...

wasn't she using 2 swords in the cinematic?

shadow warrior dual wielding for the intro, shadow warrior can't duel wield in the game..

something's wrong here :?

GoldenArrow

09-24-2008, 10:13 AM

The class would become too much played and I would ditch it at the first chance.
Besides if SW doesn't use two melee weapons in the LORE it doesn't use them in WAR.

FoxxMcCloud

09-28-2008, 10:48 AM

The class would become too much played and I would ditch it at the first chance.
Besides if SW doesn't use two melee weapons in the LORE it doesn't use them in WAR.
you shouldnt make posts that include things like "i would ditch the class or the class would become to popular in your posts" these are pointless arguments. Elven classes will be popluar anyway and nobody really cares what you do with your $15 a month.

that being said.
I think they should either give the class duel wielding or change the intro, its misleading to see your class using 2 swords then come into the game and realize they cant.

And since the bow sits on your back or is slung across your shoulder by some strap, what is stopping you from putting on your back and pulling 2 swords from around your belt? hell (not to be to into LOTR) legolas did it and he was just an actor so it CANT be that hard to do.

Pragmatic

09-29-2008, 10:10 AM

In the original TT game every class had the ability to dual wield, so it would only build on the TT system, not bring it down. But if we are going to argue the TT components, then Witch Hunters would have to wait two turns of inactivity to reload their pistols, same with dwarves and rifles. No one is saying they have to dw two long swords, but a sword and a dagger would make sense, especially when considering that their role is as guerilla warfare specialists.