Arrow flight speed and arc

[WarGreek01]

This was brought up towards the end of another thread, and I felt it was a valid enough point to turn into a poll where people would be able to discuss...

In videos showing the gameplay of the SW, arrows seem to have a lot of arc and move very slowly (most recent source: http://tentonhammer.com/node/29774 (http://tentonhammer.com/node/29774)). This could be a huge problem, if they give people the ability to dodge projectiles by skirting (simply moving side-to-side out of the way of the arrow/bullet/fireball), since a slow moving arrow would be pretty easy to sidestep.

From current speculation they are almost-definitely implementing LoS (first thread I found on the topic: http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32206) so for the same reasons as above it could be very difficult to hit your target from distance.

So do you guys think arrow speed/arrow arc should be adjusted (use as a reference the linked video and any other footage you may have seen)? Please discuss.

[Daldek]

I think that the most likely implementation is that when your arrow leaves your bow it is guaranteed to hit your target, save for some statistical things like your opponents dodge percentage.

I highly doubt they will allow people to strafe left and right to dodge arrows coming towards them.

For Line of Sight, well its just like casting a spell, if your opponent is behind a rock and your can't see them, then you can't shoot them.

[WarGreek01]

I highly doubt they will allow people to strafe left and right to dodge arrows coming towards them.

It happened in Guild Wars, and it was extremely annoying to play as a ranger and watch people move left and right out of the way of your arrows...

Just want to make sure the same thing doesn't happen to an awesome class in this game.

[SeDevri]

hmm ya i sort of see what you mean with that video, the arrow seems to have an arc at all times, but at short range that doesn't make much sense. Maybe and arc would work in Sniper stance, but not in Skirmish stance or Assault stance where it should be a straight shot. And yes it did seem that the shot was rather slow.

[WarGreek01]

I just watched certain parts of the TTH video a few times, and if you take a look (4:20 - 4:40) you can see that, as the SW begins to fire, the hit registers on the target AND THEN the shot animation (with the arrow arcing towards the target) follows.

So it looks like shots fired while in proper LoS will register and the target won't be able to dodge, but the animations are delayed.

If anyone notices anything else please let us know.

[ChosenOne]

I think it could use fixing, but I dont think its worthy of taking up much time to redo it before release. They can fine tune that later and I would be perfectly happy with it.

[Loekii]

I think WoW had missle graphics speed at about the appropriate setting.

Missles should not arc. At worst, they should 'blink', where they disappear for part of the flight -- only showing the first part and the last part of the flight path (thus minimizing the 'arc' visual).

[WarGreek01]

I agree with you, Loekii, but I would be ok if long distance shots (charge-up, scouting skills) had slight arc and flight time because that's what happens irl with distance.

I had a problem with the SW being about 3 feet away from the target in the TTH video and still have the shot arc lol...

[Eredhel]

hmm ya i sort of see what you mean with that video, the arrow seems to have an arc at all times, but at short range that doesn't make much sense. Maybe and arc would work in Sniper stance, but not in Skirmish stance or Assault stance where it should be a straight shot. And yes it did seem that the shot was rather slow.

Agreed. Longer ranged shots should arc, but the short range ones should not.

[kevo1022]

The animation speed seems messed up. It looks like the enemy gets hit before he lets go of the bow string.

They should make it so it takes longer to draw back the bow instead of having him sit there for 3 seconds doing nothing.

[Velryn]

Sorry for seeming like a total noobsauce... but what do you mean by Arcing?

[kevo1022]

Sorry for seeming like a total noobsauce... but what do you mean by Arcing?


How far the arrow goes up before it comes down....think of it in terms of parabolas if you've ever done algebra. In this thread we're discussing whether or no the arc is to big or too small.

[Loekii]

My mistake, as I took Arc to mean 'bending right or left' during flight. Vertical arcing makes sense, but the turning or 'bending' flight graphics do not.

[kevo1022]

My mistake, as I took Arc to mean 'bending right or left' during flight. Vertical arcing makes sense, but the turning or 'bending' flight graphics do not.

You may very well be right, that was just my interpretation.

[WarGreek01]

You may very well be right, that was just my interpretation.


Kevo is correct in his interpretation of what I deemed arc.


The animation speed seems messed up. It looks like the enemy gets hit before he lets go of the bow string.


If you take a look at the 5th post in this forum (my 3rd post), I pointed out the same thing... the shot is hitting (aka registering) before the arrow animation comes into contact with the enemy itself. That is one of the reasons for this poll, to increase the flight speed of the arrow so that the animation will impact at the same time that the shot registers on the target.

[Irathian]

Its a bit hard to see from that video but the bow shots should be mostly straight forward. it looks silly to fire the bow up in an arch when the target is close like that. Arching your shot should only be if you target something on maximum range imho.
Arrows would be best animated as flying fast or it will look dumb when someone moves and the arrow follows if the hit was already calculated before impact.

The whole dodging by moving is probably nothing to worry about. I am very sure because most MMORPG's have RPG like systems and stats and 'roll' a dice kind of mechanics so it will calulate if you hit or miss. Stuff like that is also not feasible with network lag in mind, then you would be super gimped as a ranged class. 'OMG im lagging I cant hit anything!' :roll:

[Warbear]

I think the arc and speed need adjusting, however, the speed is just off from when it actually damages the target. The damage is instant, then you see the arrow fly. They should adjust arc via distance. I'm sure it's just 1 equasion shy of being correct. The speed is a bit slow aswell. I could see higher arced shots from greater distances.... but when the target is 10 feet infront of you, no need to arc it 8 feet in the air at a 45­° angle.

[Kaeldor]

I think the arc and speed need adjusting, however, the speed is just off from when it actually damages the target. The damage is instant, then you see the arrow fly. They should adjust arc via distance. I'm sure it's just 1 equasion shy of being correct. The speed is a bit slow aswell. I could see higher arced shots from greater distances.... but when the target is 10 feet infront of you, no need to arc it 8 feet in the air at a 45­° angle.

Yeah would be nice if the shpeed is faster, and arcs for "scout" shots, but not for people straight in front of you, would look kind of stupid. I think they still haven't done the shooting probalby, it looks unchanged to the SH vids that were shown last year. So probalby this isn't polished yet.

[ChosenOne]

I somewhat think that its a balance issue. I know, I know right now you are thinking how the hell it could be, but just let me finish first then decide.

Part of combatting ranged players is figuring out quickly which direction they are firing from.

Bright Wizards are pretty damn obvious, fireballs do that to ya.

Magus are somewhat the same, its not quite as obvious but they arent quite as damaging either so it equals out.

Sorcerers also have a large projectile

Engineers have to be close so its ok that you dont see their ammunition flying. Pretty hard to miss the short fat guy when his gun is firing off 5 times in 3 seconds.

Squig herders bow shots also arc up so that the little arrows can probably be seen better above the battle.

So they did the same with out Shadow Warriors. Looks kind of goofy while we are watching but I dont think I will mind so much when I am playing. It wont exactly top the list of things I am watching.

I do hope at some point after release they go back and do some detailed polishing on the small things but I dont want to see the game held back because of these little things.

[Eredhel]

I do hope at some point after release they go back and do some detailed polishing on the small things but I dont want to see the game held back because of these little things.

Oh very much so. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are still refining animations for all classes anyway. They will probably do at a very minimum one more pass on animations before release if not several. I mean look at the latest Swordmaster videos being released. Their animations are a lot more fluid and flowing than what has been previously seen.

[Loekii]

Well they are having graphic bugs. The Shadow Warrior Career video that was just released talks about the 'Wolverine' Bug, where arrow graphics were simply building up in the SH's hand (looking like claws after awhile).

[Velryn]

I somewhat think that its a balance issue. I know, I know right now you are thinking how the hell it could be, but just let me finish first then decide.

Part of combatting ranged players is figuring out quickly which direction they are firing from.

Bright Wizards are pretty damn obvious, fireballs do that to ya.

Magus are somewhat the same, its not quite as obvious but they arent quite as damaging either so it equals out.

Sorcerers also have a large projectile

Engineers have to be close so its ok that you dont see their ammunition flying. Pretty hard to miss the short fat guy when his gun is firing off 5 times in 3 seconds.

Squig herders bow shots also arc up so that the little arrows can probably be seen better above the battle.

So they did the same with out Shadow Warriors. Looks kind of goofy while we are watching but I dont think I will mind so much when I am playing. It wont exactly top the list of things I am watching.

I do hope at some point after release they go back and do some detailed polishing on the small things but I dont want to see the game held back because of these little things.

I very much agree with you Chosen, It seems like this may be a thing of the Animations in PvP, however if they didn't have the arc it wouldn't be too terribly OP.

[comegetsomejuib]

it would be nice if the arrow speed was improved.

i also think they should either speed up the animation so the damage hits at the same time the arrow does. it wouldnt look too bad if the shadowwarrior drew the bow back right after a shot and just held it there until the next auto attack/ability is used.

maybe its just me but there is something unappealing about the animation making the shadow warrior look straight up just fire a shot even if i requires aiming high.

my personal opinion is to just make the shot arc very slightly so basically shooting straight, at any distance. maybe on a long ranged ability like "arced shot, charged shot, w.e" they could have a long draw back and he aims it up high to get the extra distance. i think its pretty obvious from the video that once he fires the shot, the arrow will turn around corners and follow the target, and actual missing is covered in % not third person shooting style aiming. if anyones every played WoW "sorry for the reference" you know what im talking about when a hunter points a gun straight forward and a purple shiny bullet flies up at a 45 degree angel to hit a flying target or whatever it may be.

edit: i do agree with chosen the game shouldn't be held back over such a minor detail like the way a SW arcs the shot.

[Grondoth]

If you look back at the videos of Squig Herders, you'll see a similar arc. It happens to look brilliant on them, because they're goblins with a ramshackle bow. They're not very strong, and their bow looks thrown together. So having them lean all the way back just so that they can hit someone about 40 feet away is great.

However, this is not the case with elves. For one, it's more obvious because they're both a tall race and their proportions aren't the same as a goblin. Two, the Shadow Warriors have both elegant looking and proportionally larger bows, making it seem odd that the arrows would have to be arced. And lastly, they're frikkin' elves! What elf couldn't make a shot like that!

I'm thinking they might have transplanted the goblin archery code over to the elves. Whether it's temporary or a bug or intentional, I still don't think it looks very good. If they can nix it for the elves, that'd be great.

[Kaeldor]

If you look back at the videos of Squig Herders, you'll see a similar arc. It happens to look brilliant on them, because they're goblins with a ramshackle bow. They're not very strong, and their bow looks thrown together. So having them lean all the way back just so that they can hit someone about 40 feet away is great.

However, this is not the case with elves. For one, it's more obvious because they're both the tallest race and their proportions aren't the same as a goblin. Two, the Shadow Warriors have both elegant looking and proportionally larger bows, making it seem odd that the arrows would have to be arced. And lastly, they're frikkin' elves! What elf couldn't make a shot like that!

I'm thinking they might have transplanted the goblin archery code over to the elves. Whether it's temporary or a bug or intentional, I still don't think it looks very good. If they can nix it for the elves, that'd be great.

You are right, it looked nice on the Squig Herder. I really liked their animation, and the arc looked quite fitting then. Let's hope they'll polish this for the Shadow Warrior.

[ChosenOne]

If you look back at the videos of Squig Herders, you'll see a similar arc. It happens to look brilliant on them, because they're goblins with a ramshackle bow. They're not very strong, and their bow looks thrown together. So having them lean all the way back just so that they can hit someone about 40 feet away is great.

However, this is not the case with elves. For one, it's more obvious because they're both a tall race and their proportions aren't the same as a goblin. Two, the Shadow Warriors have both elegant looking and proportionally larger bows, making it seem odd that the arrows would have to be arced. And lastly, they're frikkin' elves! What elf couldn't make a shot like that!

I'm thinking they might have transplanted the goblin archery code over to the elves. Whether it's temporary or a bug or intentional, I still don't think it looks very good. If they can nix it for the elves, that'd be great.

Good observation. Now that you point it out, it does look damn close if not identical to such.

[Demerit]

However, this is not the case with elves. For one, it's more obvious because they're both a tall race and their proportions aren't the same as a goblin. Two, the Shadow Warriors have both elegant looking and proportionally larger bows, making it seem odd that the arrows would have to be arced. And lastly, they're frikkin' elves! What elf couldn't make a shot like that!

I just watched the TTH SW video and was thinking along the same lines. There's no reason for such an exaggerated arc with the bows they have; it creates an unrealistic (and visually unappealing) effect when the target is rather close as the target dummy was in the video. Even at range, it still seems that it would be unnecessary. They state that Scout attacks have a long build-up so I would think they would have enough power behind their shot to avoid that much arcing to account for gravity.

Looks like their plan for the Scout stance was to replicate those age-old battles where archers pointed their bows up and just let their arrows rain from the sky. And I agree that it just doesn't look too good for the SW; I think they should scrap that and reduce the firing angle of the bow.

[Eredhel]

Well in this awesome screenshot, it is a short ranged shot and from what I can see, the arrow is not arcing.

http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/860/860572/warhammer-online-age-of-reckoning-20080318032117257.jpg

[Kaeldor]

Well in this awesome screenshot, it is a short ranged shot and from what I can see, the arrow is not arcing.

http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/860/860572/warhammer-online-age-of-reckoning-20080318032117257.jpg

Now that is a nice screenshot!

[mister chief]

imo i thought the (skirmish stance) version of the arrows trajectory was fine but also remember in the vid he talks about an arrow glitch i thought the scout had the problem because the arrow arced then fell like a stone. plus the screen is smaller on a video then it is in real life so well just have to wait

[Eredhel]

Now that is a nice screenshot!

A sign of things to come my friend, a sign of things to come :D

[Stick&Move]

Agree with all - needs polishing. An arrow should jump off of the string and become a streak before hitting the target, slowing for longer range shots where there should be arc - greater of lesser depending on the range.

Upon hitting the target it should impact with force.

Sound effects are equally important. The twang of the string, the whistling of the arrow as it cuts through the air. A thump - something - noting impact.

The arrow flight in LotRO was excellent. I imagine the developers at WAR should be familiar with this issue from DAoC. How were the animations there?

[Binnesman]

save the high arc arrows for the long shots and give some speed to them as well.

[Slithers]

I think WoW had missle graphics speed at about the appropriate setting.

Missles should not arc. At worst, they should 'blink', where they disappear for part of the flight -- only showing the first part and the last part of the flight path (thus minimizing the 'arc' visual).


This is the way I would like to see. The arc shot just looks dumb.

[WarGreek01]

Been gone for a few days, nice to see that my fellow SW's are still keeping active around here.

Well in this awesome screenshot, it is a short ranged shot and from what I can see, the arrow is not arcing.

http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/860/860572/warhammer-online-age-of-reckoning-20080318032117257.jpg

Excellent find, it brings hope that the arc in our shots will be on a range basis.

[Chasington]

At these ranges the shot should not be arc'd at all. Maybe, maybe on the long range shots a little arc is needed.

In games the ranges are reduced for practical issues, in real life a bow can fire much farther with a straight on shot. Arc'd shots are for firing at ranges of say 1000 meters, like firing from a castle wall at an army far away, but in game ranges would be about 100 meters tops.

So I get what they're doing, but I like it better with a direct shot at high speed.

[Medallion]

That screenshot looks great! It makes it appear that the arrow hit its target with some serious force.

As for long range shots, I hope they boost the speed of the arrow and keep the arcing to a minimum. I mean, how long will we actually be able to shoot stuff anyway?

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

As for long range shots, I hope they boost the speed of the arrow and keep the arcing to a minimum. I mean, how long will we actually be able to shoot stuff anyway?

From this screenie (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/herald/images/newsfromthefront/hede_ss_20.jpg), looking at the angle of the arrow I'm guessing a looooooong way indeed. :D

[c_vadnais]

I have no idea what our max range is, but im thinking the arrow travel is based on the shot, for example, the "scouting" shots are long range and have an appropriate arc, whereas the skirmish shots have less of an arc since they're used for closer ranges.

But that's just my 2 cents :cool:

[Medallion]

That screenshot is awesome! Thanks for that!

[Eredhel]

From this screenie (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/herald/images/newsfromthefront/hede_ss_20.jpg), looking at the angle of the arrow I'm guessing a looooooong way indeed. :D

Bloody hell! It looks like the Shadow Warrior has taken aim at the damn ship! :D

[Velryn]

Bloody hell! It looks like the Shadow Warrior has taken aim at the damn ship! :D

Indeed, judging from that arc it seems as if there's no target at all.

[c_vadnais]

well, call me crazy but I -THINK- her target is the one orc in the shot :cool:. Now that arc may be exaggerated but I think its better than an arrow shot that flies that distance in a perfectly straight line (which looks even less realistic IMO). There was a video at TTH with Adam Gershowitz (i may have totally butchered that but oh well) talking about the shadow warrior, and the few active shots you got to see had a very high arc in scout stance and didn't have one at all in skirmish stance.

[Velryn]

well, call me crazy but I -THINK- her target is the one orc in the shot :cool:. Now that arc may be exaggerated but I think its better than an arrow shot that flies that distance in a perfectly straight line (which looks even less realistic IMO). There was a video at TTH with Adam Gershowitz (i may have totally butchered that but oh well) talking about the shadow warrior, and the few active shots you got to see had a very high arc in scout stance and didn't have one at all in skirmish stance.


Yeah took another look at it and that makes sense, but just barely. I think they may want to tone it down just a bit.

edit: when I say it just barely makes sense I mean the arc in relation to the Orc's Position.

[c_vadnais]

I think all the animations are gonna be tweaked some before release to see what looks best, and find that "sweet spot" for the arrow animations. I just hope they make the animations good enough that terrain doesn't screw them up, like when you fired uphill in WoW on a hunter you fired straight into the ground but your arrow magically flew upwards:(

[Slithers]

From this screenie (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/herald/images/newsfromthefront/hede_ss_20.jpg), looking at the angle of the arrow I'm guessing a looooooong way indeed. :D


I am sorry, Thats just WAY too much arc if the SW is going for the Orc. SW's are supposed to be the best bowman you can find. I have watched many a professional bowman in my day(rl bowman that is). I have seen one stand across a street, and shoot through a open door into a target in his back yard. And just distance wise that looks about the same as the SW to Orc. Now, the arc in RL was almost nill. Are you telling me a SW cant compete with that???????

[Slithers]

Just wanted to show a vidoe of some RL bow shooting. None of them are me so this is not an epeen thing :p:p

Take a look and tell me what you think. SW are obviously better with a bow then these guys and they have virtually no arc whatsoever.

So Why have arc at all unless its VERY long distance?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuxkpJ07Dqo&feature=related

[Medallion]

Hm, I'm starting to think the arc should be almost non-existent unless we're able to shoot an arrow the length of a battlefield.

Thanks for the vid. :)

[WarGreek01]

First of all, to the guy who linked the video of rl archers, those guys are pretty bad... I watched 20 seconds of it, and the one guy fell short of the target from what, 20 yards away? That's minimum distance of a shot at the 3-D course required for your bow proficiency test if you even want to apply for your hunting license....

Second, this is a game. Real life physics may not apply to the game world if the devs don't want them to. I created this thread for the purpose of modifying the graphics slightly. I don't want a WoW recreation where the arrows fly on a flat plane, I just don't want the archer to fire straight in the air for a shot that is 5 feet away.


Edit: I looked at the rest of the video just in case they actually learned how to shoot later on, and at 4:00 the kid is using a FITA stabilizer on his recurve in the middle of the woods... if you're not familiar with archery, its a massive stabilizer on the front of the bow that is only allowed (and frankly only practical) in standard competition, and not when shooting 3-D or in hunting.

[Slithers]

First of all, to the guy who linked the video of rl archers, those guys are pretty bad... I watched 20 seconds of it, and the one guy fell short of the target from what, 20 yards away? That's minimum distance of a shot at the 3-D course required for your bow proficiency test if you even want to apply for your hunting license....

Second, this is a game. Real life physics may not apply to the game world if the devs don't want them to. I created this thread for the purpose of modifying the graphics slightly. I don't want a WoW recreation where the arrows fly on a flat plane, I just don't want the archer to fire straight in the air for a shot that is 5 feet away.


Edit: I looked at the rest of the video just in case they actually learned how to shoot later on, and at 4:00 the kid is using a FITA stabilizer on his recurve in the middle of the woods... if you're not familiar with archery, its a massive stabilizer on the front of the bow that is only allowed (and frankly only practical) in standard competition, and not when shooting 3-D or in hunting.

I never said the guys were good;) I was just using it as a reference point. I could have gotten PRO's shooting also. The fact still remains that there should be no arc. Especially at the ranges we are seeing.

Those guys did use all sorts of bows on the 3-D course.

[Edrahil Celeborn]

Hahaha, if arrows dont follow the target like in WoW, all, and I mean ALL ranged classes will suck ad be boring, standing there hoping the arrow will hit the target "please please please hit him, darn missed for the 10th time..:/"

[WarGreek01]

Hahaha, if arrows dont follow the target like in WoW, all, and I mean ALL ranged classes will suck ad be boring, standing there hoping the arrow will hit the target "please please please hit him, darn missed for the 10th time..:/"

Not necessarily. If you played Guild Wars you will be familiar with ranged attacks not following their intended targets, and you will know that Rangers did not suck by any means if you were competent. In a RvR setting, non-locking ranged attacks do not change the gameplay too much. It is much more significant in a 1v1 setting, where the other person can easily side-strafe without having to worry about being attacked from the sides/behind.

Personally, I wish there would be a compromise that could be reached, although I am not familiar with the difficulty of implementing this into the source code of the game. I am completely fine with arrows bending left and right to hit the target if they strafe. However, I was downright furious in WoW when arrows and/or spells would turn around (up to 180 degrees) to hit you, if you used a move such as blink in an effort to dodge the attack.

Like I said, I wish a compromise could be reached but I'm not sure how tough it would be for devs to implement anything. What I had in mind was something like target-locking attacks which are active for a given arc determined by the angle of movement (of the targeted player) relative to the original trajectory of the projectile. This would make players have to work to get out of the arc-area in which projectiles follow them, but at the same time will give them the opportunity to dodge the attack if they manage to get out of said area.