Swordmaster Similarity Confirmed

[vehemoth]

Not to say there was much of a question left, but the recent career presentation pointed out that Black Orcs would have a combat chain system similar to that of the Swordmaster. (Combo Chains are better than Combo Points for a tank I'd say)

[Gemini]

We've already known both would have a combo system for quite a while. However, the Black Orc's is different from the Swordmaster's, the SM uses chains while the BO uses builders and finishers.

[Pendrako]

Yeah, the Swordmaster is the "mirror" of the Black Orc. Where the BO simply uses builders and finishers, the Swordmaster can chain skills that build balance, before using a finisher with perfect balance.

[pzykozis]

Yeah, the Swordmaster is the "mirror" of the Black Orc. Where the BO simply uses builders and finishers, the Swordmaster can chain skills that build balance, before using a finisher with perfect balance.

the mirror of the swordmaster is the black guard.. don't mistake mechanics for a mirror because otherwise you'd end up with the white lion a MDPS being mirrored with the squig herder (RDPS) because they're both pet classes.. and that doesn't work.

rather the mirroring is done through roles such as the 'magic tanks' swordmaster and blackguard, this way mirroring works instead of ending up completely ' over arse' with healers being mirrored by tanks and melee dps with ranged dps.

[Ralzar]

Nope, I'm with Pendrako. Swordmaster is the Mirror of the Black Orc.

Archmage - Shaman
Hammerer - Choppa
Knight of The Blazing Sun - Chosen
Ironbreaker -Black Guard

and so on.

Each class has a mirror class on the other side that use the same mechanic, so that if you like one particular class mechanic and playstyle you're not locked into one particular side.

The only odd man out is the White Lion and Marauder, but then the White Lion hasn't been released yet.

[RageJuice]

the mirror of the swordmaster is the black guard.. don't mistake mechanics for a mirror because otherwise you'd end up with the white lion a MDPS being mirrored with the squig herder (RDPS) because they're both pet classes.. and that doesn't work.

rather the mirroring is done through roles such as the 'magic tanks' swordmaster and blackguard, this way mirroring works instead of ending up completely ' over arse' with healers being mirrored by tanks and melee dps with ranged dps.

correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the chosen a magic tank? or is it a tank that can use magic?

[pzykozis]

correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the chosen a magic tank? or is it a tank that can use magic?

magic tank is in reference to those who can tank well against magic as we've seen in the TTH video of the swordmaster as of late that is their role, also i cannot remember where from though the blackguard was tipped to be the best against magic on the destruction side.

Nope, I'm with Pendrako. Swordmaster is the Mirror of the Black Orc.

Archmage - Shaman
Hammerer - Choppa
Knight of The Blazing Sun - Chosen
Ironbreaker -Black Guard

and so on.

Each class has a mirror class on the other side that use the same mechanic, so that if you like one particular class mechanic and playstyle you're not locked into one particular side.

The only odd man out is the White Lion and Marauder, but then the White Lion hasn't been released yet.

I can see where you're coming from but i disagree, as the Iron breaker and the blackguard are very disimiliar if you go by concepts, ironbreaker being a very physical absorbing tank whereas the black guard is an avoidance tank whos more suited for magical absorbtion if you liked the mechanic of hatred / grudge that's fine but the actual classes will play completely different as the Blackguard has focus on the 2h halberd and lighter armour much like the swordmaster. whereas the Iron Breaker is pictured with axe and shield similar to the Black Orc.

Then again i think that this debate has gone on for quite awhile as to actual confirmed mirrors are. So i doubt we'll come to a conclusion now.

[vehemoth]

Swordmaster and Black Orc are Mechanical Pairs
Black Guard and Swordmaster are both more enthusiastic about greatweapons (with sword and sheild for increased defense) but their mechanics are different. Also, avoidance tank is a broken term.

The Swordmaster Mechanic:

Is it: 1 move [from normal balance set] -> 1 move [from improved balanced set] -> 1 move [from perfect balanced set] -> reset

or: balance builds as you perform strikes. As you unlock the next tier of balance the moves in the pervious balanced set are no longer open for use until you reach them again in the cycle. Normal Balance takes the most moves to advance tiers. Improved balance takes fewer moves to advance and perfect balance, the most powerful, takes 1 move, and then it goes back to normal balance.

The first system sounds more accurate due to Gersh's comment being specifically on combo chaining in this way. I have to assume that the Black Orc will have a similar system, not builders and finishers like you have assumed, which the witch elf and witch hunter have, due to Gersh's mention and the lack of contradictory evidence.

I realize what the developers say is subject to change and is sometimes stated unclearly.

[XShrike]

They aren't supposed to be exact mirrors more like counterparts. In the Disciple video they said they want classes with similar mechanics for each side. These classes would have similar mechanics but, would play differently.

In this respect the tanks and their counterparts are.

Swordmaster : Black Orc -> Builders and Finishers
Ironbreaker : Black Guard -> Similar to WoW's Warrior Rage build up.
Kight of the Blazing Sun : Chosen -> AOE buffs and debuffs

[pzykozis]

They aren't supposed to be exact mirrors more like counterparts. In the Disciple video they said they want classes with similar mechanics for each side. These classes would have similar mechanics but, would play differently.

In this respect the tanks and their counterparts are.

Swordmaster : Black Orc -> Builders and Finishers
Ironbreaker : Black Guard -> Similar to WoW's Warrior Rage build up.
Kight of the Blazing Sun : Chosen -> AOE buffs and debuffs

I guess i'm the odd one out thinking that whilst mechanically they mirror the actual playstyle of these different tanks will be completely different.

Swordmaster : Black Guard - Absorb Magical Damage

Ironbreaker : Black Orc - Absorb Physical damage

Knight of the Blazing Sun : Chosen - Support style tank with medium physical and magical absorbtion.

This is also supported by their pictured weapon types (So far atleast)

Swordmaster : Black Guard - Heavy focus on 2h Weapons specifically on 1 style of weapon of which they are masters of.

Ironbreaker : Black Orc - From what we've seen these two tanks are your typcial sword and board (or axe and board and choppa and board)

Knight of the Blazing Sun : Chosen - I see these as being the middle ground but have support style affects associated with them i think most people agree however that these are mirrored and as such don't need to continue.

[Ranien]

It's an argument of mechanics vs. specialties. From what I've heard so far about how their ability mechanics are set up:

The Sword Master and Black Orc use builders and finishers.
The Ironbreaker and Black Guard use a similar mechanic to WoW's rage system.
The Knight of the Blazing Sun and Chosen use AoE buffs and/or debuffs.

Then there's how the abilities themselves translate to play style:

The Sword Master and Black Guard supposedly are magic absorbers that focus on great weapons.
The Ironbreaker and Black Orc are the heavy melee absorbing tanks and focus on sword and board.
The Knight of the Blazing Sun and Chosen support their party by either buffing them or debuffing their enemies with AoE effects.

The only ones that pair up in both areas seem to be the Knight and the Chosen.

You're both right from my perspective, it's just that you're arguing about two different aspects of the careers.

[ManiaCCC]

Many many classes got many tweaks, reworking, adjustming and some completly redesing.. So I wouldn't be suprised if BO would have same mechanic like Swordmaster has.. IMO ..it would be great..because I absolulty love these chains...

[thedan]

Nope, I'm with Pendrako. Swordmaster is the Mirror of the Black Orc.

Archmage - Shaman
Hammerer - Choppa
Knight of The Blazing Sun - Chosen
Ironbreaker -Black Guard

and so on.

Each class has a mirror class on the other side that use the same mechanic, so that if you like one particular class mechanic and playstyle you're not locked into one particular side.

The only odd man out is the White Lion and Marauder, but then the White Lion hasn't been released yet.

that does not allow for the fact that order has two physical damage ranged and one magic damage ranged, while destruction has one physical damage ranged and two magic damage ranged.

you will not be able to put up direct lines between classes as very similar counterparts.

[NoneSuch]

Ironbreaker : Black Orc - From what we've seen these two tanks are your typcial sword and board (or axe and board and choppa and board)



Apart from the fact the Ironbreaker is designed to be a defensive tank which Asorbs damage, then deals it after taking enough hits while the Black orc is an offensive tank which can use Two-handers and uses it's combo points to attack and weaken the enemy.

So Black Orc continously deals damage, while the Ironbreaker has to build up grudge over a period of time before being capable of unleashing heavy DPS. They're kinda hard to compare.

Truth be told I don't see the point in trying to compare them iether, they're all vastly different even if they use similiar mechanics.

[Gemini]

Many many classes got many tweaks, reworking, adjustming and some completly redesing.. So I wouldn't be suprised if BO would have same mechanic like Swordmaster has.. IMO ..it would be great..because I absolulty love these chains...

That would be nice, but I wouldn't mind them having the builder finisher stuff either because I wanna roll a Swordmaster alt anyway and just pretend I'm a Loremaster.

[kingbarbarossa]

I think that one ways you can tell that this game well designed and brilliant is that every forum i've been to has a different opinion on what classes are so called mirrors of each others. The brilliance of this game is that classes like the warrior priest and disciple have a similar mechanic and yet fall into very different niches. I really hope I can write this well some day.

[Krylzay]

I think that one ways you can tell that this game well designed and brilliant is that every forum i've been to has a different opinion on what classes are so called mirrors of each others. The brilliance of this game is that classes like the warrior priest and disciple have a similar mechanic and yet fall into very different niches. I really hope I can write this well some day.


I agree completely, the classes are similar but play so differently. This game really lets you choose how to play.

I cant wait.

[Shogun]

Indeed, exciting stuff

Still though, I personally feel the black guard will be the closest mirror to the SM rather then the Black orc class.

[Krylzay]

Indeed, exciting stuff

Still though, I personally feel the black guard will be the closest mirror to the SM rather then the Black orc class.

Im still going orc, even if not for the playing style, then for the lore.

[Spikey]

Indeed, exciting stuff

Still though, I personally feel the black guard will be the closest mirror to the SM rather then the Black orc class.

How did you get all the info to base that statement?

[Shogun]

How did you get all the info to base that statement?

If you read it I stated "I personally feel" it's an opinion of mine. I feel it will make more sense. For example they both specalise in 2h weapons.

again, it was only an opinion :-?

[craptacular]

im sure this is me being an ignorant noob, but i would have thought

ironbreaker/black orc are the toughies. Really strong against physically strong attacks and damage and don't do as well GENERALLY with damage as they do with defense.

black guard/sword master are the MAGICAL tanks and they are best suited to tanking magical enemies and fighting wizards. they are lighter armoured than other tanks but put out more damage with weapons. (is black guard confirmed to use only a great weapon like the swordmaster, btw?)

Chosen/knight of the blazing sun are the TACTICAL group fighters and will generally do well to bestow their groups with command buffs and chaos energy and whatnot, and i suspect they will be a healthly medium as far as offense/defense ratios go.

like i said i might be wrong but hopefully my point of view makes sense.

[Malis]

im sure this is me being an ignorant noob, but i would have thought

ironbreaker/black orc are the toughies. Really strong against physically strong attacks and damage and don't do as well GENERALLY with damage as they do with defense.

black guard/sword master are the MAGICAL tanks and they are best suited to tanking magical enemies and fighting wizards. they are lighter armoured than other tanks but put out more damage with weapons. (is black guard confirmed to use only a great weapon like the swordmaster, btw?)

Chosen/knight of the blazing sun are the TACTICAL group fighters and will generally do well to bestow their groups with command buffs and chaos energy and whatnot, and i suspect they will be a healthly medium as far as offense/defense ratios go.

like i said i might be wrong but hopefully my point of view makes sense.

Role wise thats how i see it.

Mechanics wise

swordmaster and Black orc work similarly.

[Gemini]

Except the Chosen is said to have the heavist armor and be the most defensive for destruction, like the Ironbreaker for Order. The Knight and Black Orc are supposed to be offensive fighters, not afraid to use dishonorable tactics to win. So I'd switch Ironbreaker with Knight.

[craptacular]

oh black orc does more damage?

just in the vids ive been watching they do very poor damage numbers if any compared to other tanks.

have i been watching bad videos or something?

[ManiaCCC]

oh black orc does more damage?

just in the vids ive been watching they do very poor damage numbers if any compared to other tanks.

have i been watching bad videos or something?

I belive it doesn't matter... because Black Orcs wasn't tested or showed since November....

[CaptainAwesome]

In summary the SM may be similar to the BO in terms of combo building but the two careers will play out a lot differently :cool:

[craptacular]

hmm what if actually the black guard sort of equalled the ironbreaker? mechanics wise.

ironbreaker has grudges
black guard has hatred?

[Gemini]

Thats the common theory, grudge is an inverse of hatred, assuming hatred hasn't changed since we last heard about it. That is a pretty big assumption though.

[Ralzar]

Thats the common theory, grudge is an inverse of hatred, assuming hatred hasn't changed since we last heard about it. That is a pretty big assumption though.

I'm betting Hatred and Grudge work pretty much the same by now. Same as the Sorceress suddenly had the same mechanic as the Bright Wizard.

[Farore]

I'm betting Hatred and Grudge work pretty much the same by now. Same as the Sorceress suddenly had the same mechanic as the Bright Wizard.

I concur with the infinite wisdom, which is, Ralzar.

[Malis]

oh black orc does more damage?

just in the vids ive been watching they do very poor damage numbers if any compared to other tanks.

have i been watching bad videos or something?

well remember bieng more offensive might not mean much if any more damage. It appears that the Black Orc uses offensive abilities to disable/stun and such his opponents.

Chosen on the other hand seem to be more passive with their auras providing buffs and debuffs rather than attacking offensivly to produce those effects.

I think the chosen will the most defensive, the Black Orc more CC, the Black Guard highest damage and magic resistance.

[craptacular]

yeah i expect the black orc to have lots of dirty tricks and moves aimed at the jibblies :P

i just hope the damage has been SOMEWHAT upped since the last vids i watched, cos he was hitting for like 1 damage :S

[Under_World]

A lot of those videos were low level PvP in one of the initial senarios, and remember a lot of the begining styles in DAoC were based around weak bleeds.

As far as mirroring goes, in DAoC and WAR its not the classes that get mirrored, but the roles and abilities that do...

Some examples -

Primary Buffers - Clerics, Shamans, and Druids
End Class - Paladins, Shamans, and Bards
Primary CC - Sorcs, Healers, and Bards
Primary Healers - Clerics, Healers, and Druids

etc etc etc even with things as minor as Nearsight and Resist Buffs

Most of the time it didn't matter, except when the ability in question was crucial and on a class that provided nothing else.

For example, you needed Mez, Speed, and End for an 8 man.

- In Alb that ment you needed a Paladin, a Sorcerer, and a Minstrel - classes that brought nothing much else to the group aside from their "1 must have buff"

- In Hib that ment you needed a Bard - who also served as healer/buffer.

- In Mid that ment Healer, Shaman, Skald - who served as DPSers Main Healers and Main Buffer as well as the specialty role.

And the same thing may hold true in WAR - certain roles are going to need to be filled in each group - and its the combinations that are going to be the most imporant thing.