Female High Elf White Lions?

[Hrafn]

Are there or where there any in Warhammer lore?

Is it likely that they will be a feature in WAR or will the White Lions be a gender specific class?

[Sick And Dying]

Im not a huge lore buff, but i don't think there is anything that says they can't be.

[Tyr]

I've never seen one in the lore, but like Sick and Dying said I have never seen anything that says they can't be either.

[Dunhill]

A lot of people think it kind of odd that there will be, simply due to the fact that we haven't seen any miniatures of female white lions, but again there is no indication that it's a male only career.

[Ashilith]

Pfff.. Lore buffs know that the White Lions must slay a Lion in the woods in order to become a White Lion, women can't do that.... j/k the Handmaidens rock ; )

[Mathis]

Pfff.. Lore buffs know that the White Lions must slay a Lion in the woods in order to become a White Lion, women can't do that.... j/k the Handmaidens rock ; )

more specifically, they must slay it with their bare hands... let's be honest, no chick could do this.

[Evander]

more specifically, they must slay it with their bare hands... let's be honest, no chick could do this.

You've obviously never pushed your Girlfriend to her limits :P
Chicks can make greater deamons of Khonre cry and flee if they don't get what they want.

[Hrafn]

You'be obviously never pushed your Girlfriend to her limits :P
Chicks can make greater deamons of Khonre cry and flee if they don't get what they want.

Depending on the time of the month, they actually are Greater Daemons of Khorne. ;)

Anyway, as usual, I guess we'll just have to wait for Mythic to reveal who the final High Elf Class is and whether they are available in both genders.

The only reason I'm asking is that I am looking at transferring my WoW Nelf Character and translating her into a WAR setting. Played Shari Evenstar a NElf Warrior on WoW-EU DB for about 2 years and I think the character I built up there, in terms of demeanour, fighting style etc, would fit perfectly for a HElf whther that be a Swordmaster or, probably more fitting, a White Lion.

[Terridan]

The argument using the idea that there are no female models is a flawed one; to my knowledge there are no female swordmasters, and we've seen screenshots and concept art for those. The same goes for Shadow warriors, but we have pictures of one from the new intro movie that they're producing.

There are actually few models in the high elf range that are female; the one exception I can think of is one of the mage models. However, if you read the background even the militia are taken from both sexes, so it stands to reason that we'll see male and female white lions as well. You should be just fine to recreate your character. :)

[ChosenOne]

While I have said its the class I would consider the most likely on the HE side to have no females, I think it would be a mistake. How many females wouldnt love to play a badass elven female wielding an axe and having a pet?

The other pet class is already a nonsexual one. Yeah I guess if they want a cute little goblin as their character and some ugly balls of meat with teeth then they could go with that but if they make the white lion male only then there is no female character with a pet. I may be wrong but to me that just sounds like a bad idea.

Perhaps I am unfairly stereotyping female players, but I think a fair number of them would like to play a pet class.

[Ashilith]

I wouldn't mind female Swordmasters however female White Lions would irk me for the above stated. Also, much lulz to the Bloodthirster comment ; ) .

I can see where Chosen One is comming from and I hadn't considered the thought of pet classes. Isn't this whole pet idea just speculation anyway? I mean until 7th Edition rules the White Lions didn't use lions as pet, they wore their pelts..haha.. but now there is the option to have a chariot drawn by lions, which is sweet because I was tired of having my Spearmen mowed down by boar chariots (and the Hacking Sword of Hacking.. <3 Ork names)

[Tyr]

A long time ago Mythic confirmed there would be a High Elf pet class. So the pet class isn't speculation, just that its the White Lion is.

[Kaeldor]

I wouldn't mind female Swordmasters however female White Lions would irk me for the above stated. Also, much lulz to the Bloodthirster comment ; ) .

I can see where Chosen One is comming from and I hadn't considered the thought of pet classes. Isn't this whole pet idea just speculation anyway? I mean until 7th Edition rules the White Lions didn't use lions as pet, they wore their pelts..haha.. but now there is the option to have a chariot drawn by lions, which is sweet because I was tired of having my Spearmen mowed down by boar chariots (and the Hacking Sword of Hacking.. <3 Ork names)

It's not pure speculation, the devs said at one point there would be a HE pet class. might have changed since then, but since the devs stressed multiple times that they want players to have the chioce of playing classes with a similar mechanic on both sides, it's unlikly that they won't have a Order pet class.

Plus I think what Chosen said above is a really good point.

[Ashilith]

That's pretty cool then. It appears White Lions would be the best choice for a pet class based on Lore. This actually makes me interested in playing one. A SM would have probably been my first choice but I am all tank'd out after playing a Guardian in EQ2.

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

I want White Lions to be male only. It's not for any logical reason, just a gut feeling that female White Lions is... weird. Not wrong, just ill-fitting to their appearance.

Lorewise, there is no real reason for there not to be female White Lions, and the fact that none have been mentioned in any blurb is not a valid reason for them not to exist - the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, after all. Also, there is no evidence to suggest that female elves are any weaker than elven males, and in fact the lore suggests that the best elven warriors ARE female, in the form of the Handmaidens. Anyone suggesting a 'logical' reason for not wanting a female White Lion is kidding themselves IMO, and they are likely either sexist or they are like me; too enamored with the image of the White Lion to accept a revision of their appearance.

I'm not arguing for male only White Lions for any logical reason, lore related or otherwise, I just feel that the High Elves need a ostensibly macho class. Let's face it - we're a skinny, pale, and frail-looking race that for the most part uses brains and precision over brawn. The White Lions are the polar opposite of this. They are muscular, macho and manly and keeping them that way will help with the annoyingly misguided misconception that High Elves are weak. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that women are weak, I'm saying that to keep a woman's feminine appearance she will appear weaker than male White Lions to many observers. And a lot of the appeal of the White Lion is in their look - which is quite similar I think to the appeal of the Witch Elves.

Seeing as they made the Sorceresses have a male option, but kept Witch Elves female only (when they could easily have made a male 'assassin' option) it is evident that the devs are sticking to their policy of maintaining class 'silhouettes' that are instantly recognisable. Based on this I believe that it is likely that we will either see a male only class, or they will make the women beefier than the other High Elf women. I'd personally like them to go male only, but sadly in today's PC climate it is ok for there to be a women only class, but not ok for there to be male only class. Look at the reaction to the Chosen...

I hope Mythic still have the guts to make a brave choice.

[Kharlene]

Well, as far keeping to the "aesthetic", Mythic also made the Chosen and Marauder male-only and received a massive backlash for it, which it made even less sense to do so considering from what I understand from lorists posting in this forum that there are female Chosen and Marauders in the lore itself. But Mythic didn't think they looked right, they believed they looked "awkward" and not "intimidating" enough (their official statements), i.e. they didn't think their artists could create Chosen and Marauder females is another way to look at it. Yes, I'm still bitter about it... ;)

Thus, denying a female choice and having yet another male-only class - not just for a pet class, but a pet class whose pet is a white lion! Tch tch tch... Bad move... Like I said, they received a harsh backlash with the Marauders and Chosen, I think it would be foolish for them to do same thing with yet another class... Even more so when there is no reason to... :rolleyes:

[Lucrece]

Justifying a ban on female WL on the human precept that females are physically weaker (actually, this is debatable; females have more muscle density as opposed to males's superior muscle mass), thus not being able to kill a lion of Chrace is asinine. There's nothing realistic whatsoever about a male killing a lion, either; so, please, let's leave these silly kinds of arguments aside. Furthermore, we have no concrete info on elven metabolism and physical make-up; applying human physiognomy rules on elven organisms would be imprudent.

Additionally, arguments for male-only WL in order to have a "macho" class, thus dispelling the "stereotype" are suspect. Why should elves have to break the stereotype? Why should their culture be hypermasculine to have any value? Are there not enough options out there in form of other armies to choose if one wants a "macho" army? It would do much disservice to degrade the HE army by introducing heteropatriarchal notions into Chracian culture.

I like my pansy elves just fine, tyvm. There's the Chaos army-- particularly the Chosen-- for those "hear me roar *chest thumping*" types.

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

Well, as far keeping to the "aesthetic", Mythic also made the Chosen and Marauder male-only and received a massive backlash for it, which it made even less sense to do so considering from what I understand from lorists posting in this forum that there are female Chosen and Marauders in the lore itself. But Mythic didn't think they looked right, they believed they looked "awkward" and not "intimidating" enough (their official statements), i.e. they didn't think their artists could create Chosen and Marauder females is another way to look at it. Yes, I'm still bitter about it... ;)

I agree that it was wrong to remove female versions of the Chosen and Marauder (especially as they're in the same army), as there is clearly a very strong lore-based argument for their existence. However, while there is nothing saying there can't be female White Lions, there is also nothing to suggest they exist either, and to that end Mythic would be far more justified in making this class male only based on that.

Thus, denying a female choice and having yet another male-only class - not just for a pet class, but a pet class whose pet is a white lion! Tch tch tch... Bad move... Like I said, they received a harsh backlash with the Marauders and Chosen, I think it would be foolish for them to do same thing with yet another class... Even more so when there is no reason to... :rolleyes:

Yes, but there is no reason not to either. This is all boils down to aesthetics really.


Justifying a ban on female WL on the human precept that females are physically weaker (actually, this is debatable; females have more muscle density as opposed to males's superior muscle mass), thus not being able to kill a lion of Chrace is asinine. There's nothing realistic whatsoever about a male killing a lion, either; so, please, let's leave these silly kinds of arguments aside. Furthermore, we have no concrete info on elven metabolism and physical make-up; applying human physiognomy rules on elven organisms would be imprudent.

Totally agree.

Additionally, arguments for male-only WL in order to have a "macho" class, thus dispelling the "stereotype" are suspect. Why should elves have to break the stereotype?

It's not so much that they 'have to', but that they just already do. The Warhammer elves are nothing like the preconceived elven stereotype that players will bring with them when they come to WAR. The White Lion class exists, and it is based around physical strength and bravery, so I'm merely suggesting that Mythic play up these attributes to make the class more unique and instantly recognisable.

Why should their culture be hypermasculine to have any value? Are there not enough options out there in form of other armies to choose if one wants a "macho" army? It would do much disservice to degrade the HE army by introducing heteropatriarchal notions into Chracian culture.

I like my pansy elves just fine, tyvm. There's the Chaos army-- particularly the Chosen-- for those "hear me roar *chest thumping*" types.

I'm playing a Shadow Warrior. I shoot things from a long way off and get squished if I get hit in melee - after the Archmage I'm the second most pansy High Elf class, so I must also like the 'pansy' elf. But the fact remains that the Warhammer elves are more diverse than those of other IPs. Not only are our 'normal' troops more aggressive and warlike than the stereotype, we also have the Shadow Warriors who are verging on evil, and the White Lions who are the very antithesis of the elven stereotype that needs to be dispelled in WAR. My argument is that Mythic should do all in their power to preserve the class that sets the High Elves apart the most by accentuating their most visible identifying attributes - ie their size and strength.

[Certhalion]

I want White Lions to be male only. It's not for any logical reason, just a gut feeling that female White Lions is... weird. Not wrong, just ill-fitting to their appearance.

Lorewise, there is no real reason for there not to be female White Lions, and the fact that none have been mentioned in any blurb is not a valid reason for them not to exist - the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, after all. Also, there is no evidence to suggest that female elves are any weaker than elven males, and in fact the lore suggests that the best elven warriors ARE female, in the form of the Handmaidens. Anyone suggesting a 'logical' reason for not wanting a female White Lion is kidding themselves IMO, and they are likely either sexist or they are like me; too enamored with the image of the White Lion to accept a revision of their appearance.

I'm not arguing for male only White Lions for any logical reason, lore related or otherwise, I just feel that the High Elves need a ostensibly macho class. Let's face it - we're a skinny, pale, and frail-looking race that for the most part uses brains and precision over brawn. The White Lions are the polar opposite of this. They are muscular, macho and manly and keeping them that way will help with the annoyingly misguided misconception that High Elves are weak. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that women are weak, I'm saying that to keep a woman's feminine appearance she will appear weaker than male White Lions to many observers. And a lot of the appeal of the White Lion is in their look - which is quite similar I think to the appeal of the Witch Elves.

Seeing as they made the Sorceresses have a male option, but kept Witch Elves female only (when they could easily have made a male 'assassin' option) it is evident that the devs are sticking to their policy of maintaining class 'silhouettes' that are instantly recognisable. Based on this I believe that it is likely that we will either see a male only class, or they will make the women beefier than the other High Elf women. I'd personally like them to go male only, but sadly in today's PC climate it is ok for there to be a women only class, but not ok for there to be male only class. Look at the reaction to the Chosen...

I hope Mythic still have the guts to make a brave choice.

I pretty much agree with what you've said, but technically, Disciples of Khaine are a WAR twisted version of Dark Elf assassins.

[Kharlene]

I agree that it was wrong to remove female versions of the Chosen and Marauder (especially as they're in the same army), as there is clearly a very strong lore-based argument for their existence. However, while there is nothing saying there can't be female White Lions, there is also nothing to suggest they exist either, and to that end Mythic would be far more justified in making this class male only based on that.



Yes, but there is no reason not to either. This is all boils down to aesthetics really.

I.E.... You want a third male-only career (and if you want to go by appearances sake, a seventh given that the Greenskins look male regardless of them being eunuch fungi :mrgreen: )... and furthermore... deny not just female-gamers, but women... a giant cat... As a woman, I can tell you I only see this concluding badly... :evil:

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

I pretty much agree with what you've said, but technically, Disciples of Khaine are a WAR twisted version of Dark Elf assassins.

Which makes the invention of the DoK all the more unnecessary...

I.E.... You want a third male-only career (and if you want to go by appearances sake, a seventh given that the Greenskins look male regardless of them being eunuch fungi :mrgreen: )... and furthermore... deny not just female-gamers, but women... a giant cat... As a woman, I can tell you I only see this concluding badly... :evil:

No. I want one male-only career. Chosen and Marauders really should not be male only - Mythic had a legitimate reason available for making females differ from their stereotypical phenotype in the form of chaos mutations. It's too late to change that though, and I'm not sure anymore whether the fact they are male-only has any real bearing on whether or not White Lions should be or not - I think each career should be designed as a seperate entity, removed from the influence of other career's design decisions in order to preserve that classes feel. The fact that both the male-only classes are in the Chaos army suggests that Mythic might feel the same way...

Also, how would making White Lions male only deny female gamers the chance to have a giant cat? Play as a male character. If they removed the option of male Shadow Warriors, I'd have no problem playing as a female...

[Lucrece]

Not to nitpick, Aelthurian, but all those attributes you listed are not exclusive to males. It's a bit unfair to claim that males have the sole claim on strength and ferocity.

Also, I don't think it's our responsibility to dispel the preconceived notions of others. Let them wallow in their juvenile antics fueled by ignorance. Those of us who know better acknowledge that being cultured, proud, well-mannered, and possessing some restraint is not disabling to the becoming of a good combatant. No need to appeal to the lower common denominator.

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

I know they're not the sole province of males, nor have I claimed as much, but when you think of masculinity both men and women are more likely to think of ideas like strength and power, and when they think of femininity they're more likely to think of ideas like grace and beauty. These ideas are not exclusive to either gender, but because of our life experience we associate them with certain genders. For example, if I was to ask you to picture a drunken fight outside a pub/bar on a Saturday night, I'm pretty sure the first thing your mind would run to would be a couple of guys fist-fighting. Well, here in the UK it's now statistically more likely to be women involved in alcohol related altercations (we're a right classy bunch over here! :rolleyes:). This linking of ideas to gender works both ways - by assigning a gender to a class, you instantly attach people's gender-preconceived ideas to it. I'm not actually all that bothered about whether or not there are female White Lions, it'll be nowhere near as annoying to me as the fact that there will be elves running around with giant cats (that's a different argument though), I just think that the class would be far better served conceptually by making it gender-restricted.

And as far as dispelling ignorance goes, it may not be our responsibility, but I like to think that there are players out there who could be converted and thus reduce the amount of inevitable name-calling there will be. Eventually maybe we'll even see a culture of respection one's enemy. Ridiculously unlikely, but I can dream I guess...

[Lucrece]

I know they're not the sole province of males, nor have I claimed as much, but when you think of masculinity both men and women are more likely to think of ideas like strength and power, and when they think of femininity they're more likely to think of ideas like grace and beauty. These ideas are not exclusive to either gender, but because of our life experience we associate them with certain genders. For example, if I was to ask you to picture a drunken fight outside a pub/bar on a Saturday night, I'm pretty sure the first thing your mind would run to would be a couple of guys fist-fighting. Well, here in the UK it's now statistically more likely to be women involved in alcohol related altercations (we're a right classy bunch over here! :rolleyes:). This linking of ideas to gender works both ways - by assigning a gender to a class, you instantly attach people's gender-preconceived ideas to it. I'm not actually all that bothered about whether or not there are female White Lions, it'll be nowhere near as annoying to me as the fact that there will be elves running around with giant cats (that's a different argument though), I just think that the class would be far better served conceptually by making it gender-restricted.

And as far as dispelling ignorance goes, it may not be our responsibility, but I like to think that there are players out there who could be converted and thus reduce the amount of inevitable name-calling there will be. Eventually maybe we'll even see a culture of respection one's enemy. Ridiculously unlikely, but I can dream I guess...

Oh, but you're trading name-calling for the alienation of women with imagery of primal ferocity and physical strength. I think we have enough "archer/caster chicks" lying around, if you ask me. I dunno, I'm uneasy about creating more gender-restrictions than there already are. I don't want to convert anybody who initially would not be worth wasting one's breath on; I'd rather the Chaos peeps keep em' ;).

[Kharlene]

No. I want one male-only career. Chosen and Marauders really should not be male only - Mythic had a legitimate reason available for making females differ from their stereotypical phenotype in the form of chaos mutations. It's too late to change that though, and I'm not sure anymore whether the fact they are male-only has any real bearing on whether or not White Lions should be or not - I think each career should be designed as a seperate entity, removed from the influence of other career's design decisions in order to preserve that classes feel. The fact that both the male-only classes are in the Chaos army suggests that Mythic might feel the same way...

Also, how would making White Lions male only deny female gamers the chance to have a giant cat? Play as a male character. If they removed the option of male Shadow Warriors, I'd have no problem playing as a female...

Aw... Now here I was trying to be light-hearted about it, and you just had to get all serious, but very well... By the same logic you're applying here, then all the classes with exception to Mages, Witch Elves, Sorceress, Chosen and Marauders should be 'allowed' to be female, whereas all other classes going by "aesthetic" should all be male-only. And this:

The fact that both the male-only classes are in the Chaos army suggests that Mythic might feel the same way...


Is immediately dispelled by the fact there are female dwarves available to play, when apparently in the lore they do not fight - at all... Which is why making Chosen and Marauders male-only continued to make even less sense. Because their "aesthetic" choices have been... erratic. So, the WLs becoming another male-only class is inclined to such just as much (if not less) than it is likely to become open to both genders, because there are already 3 gender specific classes - 2 of which are male-only when they should not be, i.e. the only one of those 3 that are upholding to their actual "aesthetics" is the Witch Elf (as far being a female-only specific class, not gameplay wise). All other classes where it is questionable or where there is no lore states there is or is not or can or cannot be a certain class, i.e. the KotBS, BW, WH, BG, Magus, SW, SM, Archmage, WP - all of which with exception to the Archmage have been depicted "aesthetically" as male-only, yet... they each are playable for both genders in WAR... The WL is in no different of a position as them.

[Kaeldor]

I.E.... You want a third male-only career (and if you want to go by appearances sake, a seventh given that the Greenskins look male regardless of them being eunuch fungi :mrgreen: )... and furthermore... deny not just female-gamers, but women... a giant cat... As a woman, I can tell you I only see this concluding badly... :evil:

Noone denies female-gamers/woman to play any class, just to play as a female character. Same happens to guys with certain classes.

[Mathis]

this thread has descended into a steaming pile of politically correct nonsense. women ARE physically smaller and weaker... period. sorry if this offends you (not really) but it's true. more size/strength reliant classes like the chosen and marauder shouldn't have female options because they'd look silly. i feel the WL fits into this catagory. perhaps this reason alone isn't enough to make it a male-only class (and that's fine), but don't try to invalidate it because women are as physcially capable as men when they clearly are not (i.e. not a single olympic record is held by a woman over a man). this is a forum, not a podium. save the bs plz.

[Lucrece]

this thread has descended into a steaming pile of politically correct nonsense. women ARE physically smaller and weaker... period. sorry if this offends you (not really) but it's true. more size/strength reliant classes like the chosen and marauder shouldn't have female options because they'd look silly. i feel the WL fits into this catagory. perhaps this reason alone isn't enough to make it a male-only class (and that's fine), but don't try to invalidate it because women are as physcially capable as men when they clearly are not (i.e. not a single olympic record is held by a woman over a man). this is a forum, not a podium. save the bs plz.

I knew a post like this, which proves how he didn't read the whole thread before mashing his reply button, wouldn't take long to show up and pollute this thread.

[Drahcar]

I have read 98% of these posts (sorry for the last few I will read them shortly) but I dont see why we cant have female Marauders or Female chosen they already have a female magus and it looks amazing in the army. A female chosen though might have such a large breast plate that it would cause some jokes to sprout but ohwell. I havent been into Warhammer for long so I do not know in depth all the IP and such but I think that letting the High Elves have one "Macho" class that is male only isnt a problem but since the Chosen and Marauder were denied this I believe to be fair there should be female white lions and as my younger cousin pointed out she wants a "Big Kitty to Maul her enemies with" Now she played a Night Elf hunter on WoW and switched to a Blood Elf One shortly after so she really likes the pet classes. I think they should take annother approach to the White Lion female version. Instead of making them "macho" why not make them more cunning like REAL female lions are. If you think about it female lions are what keep the pack going and for that fact I think it is possible for there to be Female White Lions maybe they take down their pray together (Again I dont know the rules about this whole killing the white lion with their bare hand), or maybe they could create a bond with the lion as to show it that she wants it to be her pet. We just need to make it more of what a female character in such a situation would do not go beating around the forest going "COME HERE LION AND LET ME KILL YOU!" I would think both male and female High Elves would be more cunning towards such an impressive foe but atleast we can make the women seem more intelligent and cunning in this situation to make up for the stereotype of the feminine traits. In all honesty though I dont believe that there should be sex specific classes unless it is out of the question and really neither women NOR men should be able to complain about it because where would the equality be then? To finish up if they dont give women the chosen and marauder then we might aswell give them the fluffy cat class but as I said earlier make them more cunning and savage while the men can stay Buff and Powerful. (If I offended anyone in this post I am sorry but really you should be =P)

[Irathian]

What about the visual siluette? if they make female whitelions, it would be sad to see them look skinny but yet very strong. Whitelions have always been the muscular lumberjack elves and quite unique for Warhammer imho.
I want to see a good concept art of an athletic elf female whitelion before I change my mind.

[ChosenOne]

Ok guys, I stand with you with the idea that there should have been female chosen and marauders but can we please keep it from turning into another one of the many threads that they have closed and WARNED us about?

We do not want that to happen in our high elven forum threads.

So, please, White Lion only.


My personal beliefs, which have been strengthened by similiar posts here and personal experiences, is that there are quite a few females that would possibly be players but would be indeed upset that they couldnt have a female toon with a pet. We have already seen alot of negative feedback on the sex restriction elsewhere. This one would be a big one, don't deny the girls their Kitty. Seriously bad move....

[Gemini]

What about the visual siluette? if they make female whitelions, it would be sad to see them look skinny but yet very strong. Whitelions have always been the muscular lumberjack elves and quite unique for Warhammer imho.
I want to see a good concept art of an athletic elf female whitelion before I change my mind.

All classes of a race (human, elf, ect) use the same skeleton, with the exception of the Marauder and Chosen who share their special skeleton. So don't expect the White Lion to look any more buff than the other elves, unless they also get their own special skeleton.

As for the female being weaker thing, that is true on average with real life humans. Heres the problem with that, this is a fantasy game, it's not humans, and even with real humans, averages don't mean crap. There are plenty of buff women (that still look like women), I've played rugby with a few of them. And, once again, White Lions aren't human, and they aren't real. I see no problem with female White Lions unless GW says no for their own reasons.

[checkthis5000]

You'be obviously never pushed your Girlfriend to her limits :P
Chicks can make greater deamons of Khonre cry and flee if they don't get what they want.

My girlfriend is all of 100 lbs, but when I pushed her to her limit and she told me if I didn't move that she was going to push me down the stairs, I moved. haha

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

I'm issuing a retraction (kinda) at the end of this, but I thought I'd respond to a few statements first and complete my arguments, just so y'all can see where I was coming from...

Aw... Now here I was trying to be light-hearted about it, and you just had to get all serious, but very well... By the same logic you're applying here, then all the classes with exception to Mages, Witch Elves, Sorceress, Chosen and Marauders should be 'allowed' to be female, whereas all other classes going by "aesthetic" should all be male-only. And this:

The fact that both the male-only classes are in the Chaos army suggests that Mythic might feel the same way...

Is immediately dispelled by the fact there are female dwarves available to play, when apparently in the lore they do not fight - at all...

True, but there's a difference between denying a race female characters of one class rather than across the entire race.

Which is why making Chosen and Marauders male-only continued to make even less sense. Because their "aesthetic" choices have been... erratic.

I agree, they have made the wrong decision here.

All other classes where it is questionable or where there is no lore states there is or is not or can or cannot be a certain class, i.e. the KotBS, BW, WH, BG, Magus, SW, SM, Archmage, WP - all of which with exception to the Archmage have been depicted "aesthetically" as male-only, yet... they each are playable for both genders in WAR... The WL is in no different of a position as them.

I'm not sure I agree. The difference between all these other classes and the White Lion is that they are based upon internal power (such as faith for the WH, grace and precision for the SM, or willpower for spellcasters etc) whereas the White Lion is a very physical class. You have a very valid point for the Black Guard, but they are heavily armoured unlike the White Lion who would need to absorb damage rather than let the armour take the brunt of the force...

this thread has descended into a steaming pile of politically correct nonsense. women ARE physically smaller and weaker... period.

No. They. Are. Not.

I know two women who could easily kick my in a fight, and I have a 1st Dan in Judo. Admittedly they study 'proper' (ie, non-sport) martial arts, but the fact remains that they are stronger in many ways than the average man. I'd really like to see you put this point to them in person...

sorry if this offends you (not really) but it's true. more size/strength reliant classes like the chosen and marauder shouldn't have female options because they'd look silly.

Also disagree. Both the Chosen and marauder are unnaturally strong due to Chaos mutations, so therefore there is no reason that a woman couldn't become just as strong as a male equivalent.



I'd also like to add that after thinking about this subject while at work, I'm no longer entirely sure that the WL needs to be gender specific. In fact I now have the opposite opinion, but I think that each gender needs to be very different. The male version needs to look big, muscular, macho etc, while the female version needs to look... fast, nimble, and graceful. The problem seems to me to be the weapon - the two handed axe is not really a graceful weapon, so I suggest this; duel-wielding hand axes for female WLs... Admittedly I was a initially tad stubborn and unwilling to part from my image of the White Lion before I saw that the male version can remain unchanged, the solution was to simply reinvent the class for women only.

Wow. An opinion was actually changed on an internet forum. Gasps! :mrgreen:

[Ldyroses]

While I have said its the class I would consider the most likely on the HE side to have no females, I think it would be a mistake. How many females wouldnt love to play a badass elven female wielding an axe and having a pet?

The other pet class is already a nonsexual one. Yeah I guess if they want a cute little goblin as their character and some ugly balls of meat with teeth then they could go with that but if they make the white lion male only then there is no female character with a pet. I may be wrong but to me that just sounds like a bad idea.

Perhaps I am unfairly stereotyping female players, but I think a fair number of them would like to play a pet class.
You are totally right, I play a hunter on another game because I happen to love pets and they kick butt. I would love to play a White Lion. I really hope they make them female also.

[Ashilith]

Based upon the obvious political move to allow Male DE Sorcs I'll agree to female White Lions for the same reasons - I just want to play the game.. now! Let's all start yet another thread speculating Open Beta dates..haha :D

[Loomdun]

I want White Lions to be male only. It's not for any logical reason, just a gut feeling that female White Lions is... weird. Not wrong, just ill-fitting to their appearance.

Lorewise, there is no real reason for there not to be female White Lions, and the fact that none have been mentioned in any blurb is not a valid reason for them not to exist - the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, after all. Also, there is no evidence to suggest that female elves are any weaker than elven males, and in fact the lore suggests that the best elven warriors ARE female, in the form of the Handmaidens. Anyone suggesting a 'logical' reason for not wanting a female White Lion is kidding themselves IMO, and they are likely either sexist or they are like me; too enamored with the image of the White Lion to accept a revision of their appearance.

I'm not arguing for male only White Lions for any logical reason, lore related or otherwise, I just feel that the High Elves need a ostensibly macho class. Let's face it - we're a skinny, pale, and frail-looking race that for the most part uses brains and precision over brawn. The White Lions are the polar opposite of this. They are muscular, macho and manly and keeping them that way will help with the annoyingly misguided misconception that High Elves are weak. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that women are weak, I'm saying that to keep a woman's feminine appearance she will appear weaker than male White Lions to many observers. And a lot of the appeal of the White Lion is in their look - which is quite similar I think to the appeal of the Witch Elves.

Seeing as they made the Sorceresses have a male option, but kept Witch Elves female only (when they could easily have made a male 'assassin' option) it is evident that the devs are sticking to their policy of maintaining class 'silhouettes' that are instantly recognisable. Based on this I believe that it is likely that we will either see a male only class, or they will make the women beefier than the other High Elf women. I'd personally like them to go male only, but sadly in today's PC climate it is ok for there to be a women only class, but not ok for there to be male only class. Look at the reaction to the Chosen...

I hope Mythic still have the guts to make a brave choice.

You obviously have no freaking idea about Elfs then, yes obviously there will be a female version of White lions. Female and Male elf's will generally be around the same in muscle strength rather then comparing a normal female vs human.

lol.. "I hope mythic still have the guts to make a brave choice" theres a very fine line between brave and idiotic, this would be one of them. Yes as you said "for macho-ness" but if your that self insecure about playing a elf just don't yeesh. And I repeat HOW WOULD THAT BE BRAVE??

[Austric]

White Lionesses you mean.

Yeah I really can't see them being gender specific, considering there are male Sorceresses.

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

You obviously have no freaking idea about Elfs then, yes obviously there will be a female version of White lions. Female and Male elf's will generally be around the same in muscle strength rather then comparing a normal female vs human.

Here's an extract from the post you quoted:

Also, there is no evidence to suggest that female elves are any weaker than elven males, and in fact the lore suggests that the best elven warriors ARE female, in the form of the Handmaidens.

I suggest you read a post fully next time you decide to respond in the way you did, otherwise you'll just end up looking foolish.

lol.. "I hope mythic still have the guts to make a brave choice" theres a very fine line between brave and idiotic, this would be one of them. Yes as you said "for macho-ness" but if your that self insecure about playing a elf just don't yeesh. And I repeat HOW WOULD THAT BE BRAVE??

If you think I want male-only White Lions because I'm insecure, again check your facts and read all my posts - not only have I changed my position, but I have stated that I will be playing a Shadow Warrior, so any views I have on this class are nothing to do with how I feel about myself or my character.

As for bravery, yes it would be a brave choice - Mythic have already taken a lot of flak from fans over the Chosen and Marauder classes. Their decisions were based on their personal beliefs and they stuck to them despite widespread criticsm, which takes both integrity and bravery. They are, after all, risking a lot of money by not pandering to the fans and by sticking to their artistic vision.

[Hrafn]

Wooaahh!! This trhead grew a little over the weekend. ;)

I'm going to post my view on a few things mentioned in this thread.

Firstly on the macho idea of White Lions being male only because they epitomise fierceness, bravery, courage and strength.

In regards to fierceness, bravery and courage - these have absolutely no bearing on a persons physical stature. It is a mental/emotional thing the drives those things. You could face a 6'6" giant and he run away from you as soon as you touch or have a 3' midget kick 7 shades of crap out of you just because he wont give up.

Strength, yes depends a lot on physical size, but it also equally applies to applied force. Knowing how to use your muscles, knowing how muscle groups work in tandem with each other and how to apply that to one particular task. In this regards actual physical size has nothing to do with strength.

How does that apply to White Lions?

White Lions are supposed to be the most animalistic of High Elves as well as the strongest, epitomised by their 'way of passage' to becoming a White Lion - killing a White Lion with their own hands.

Could it be that White Lions, including Korhil, are stronger not solely because of physical size? Infact Korhils physical size may only have been a contributing factor to why he excels as a White Lion as opposed to being the sole reason why he is so outstanding.

That being said, it would make it possible for females to be White Lions despite possibly in physical mass. It is quite feasible that they could be fiercer than their male counterparts (the WitchElves show hat Elven Females can be extremely fierce, albeit they have a corrupted fierceness.)

Being more attuned with nature, it stands to reason that the Chracians would emulate some of the aspects of nature, such as feral ferocity, bravery to protect their own and applied force (when thinking of the power inherent in big cats etc).

All of these things could equally apply to males and females. In fact, where the males could well excel on the physicality side of things, the females (as we can all attest to) could quite easily surpass their male counterparts in terms of ferocity and even courage.

As for me, I would like to see female White Lions. I am a male, but have enjoyed RPing strong willed, fierce (beserker even) fighters who do not give up whatever the odds. I would like to do the same here.

The one drawback I see with Lions though, from a personal point of view, is the pet side of things. I'm not a big pet class fan. But hey, you cant have everything. If White Lions have pets, despite my arguments in this thread, I will probably end up making Shari a Swordmaster rather thatn a White Lion.

I'd also like to add that after thinking about this subject while at work, I'm no longer entirely sure that the WL needs to be gender specific. In fact I now have the opposite opinion, but I think that each gender needs to be very different. The male version needs to look big, muscular, macho etc, while the female version needs to look... fast, nimble, and graceful. The problem seems to me to be the weapon - the two handed axe is not really a graceful weapon, so I suggest this; duel-wielding hand axes for female WLs... Admittedly I was a initially tad stubborn and unwilling to part from my image of the White Lion before I saw that the male version can remain unchanged, the solution was to simply reinvent the class for women only.

I have to say that these ideas could work, however I can't see Mythic creating female White Lions who are dual-wielding only. But it is a good and interesting idea.

[Lucrece]

No need to insult Aelthurian, peeps. Keep the discussion civil.

Aelthurian~ One thing is to be brave. It is another thing to be stubbornly lazy. When you can't properly support your decisions, you should be honest and say that you don't simply want to invest resources. Female Chosen and Marauders are perfectly doable, as has been shown by various individuals. It's just a matter of lack of creativity on Mythic's side that does not got beyond mere and types of females.

[ChosenOne]

No need to insult Aelthurian, peeps. Keep the discussion civil.

Aelthurian~ One thing is to be brave. It is another thing to be stubbornly lazy. When you can't properly support your decisions, you should be honest and say that you don't simply want to invest resources. Female Chosen and Marauders are perfectly doable, as has been shown by various individuals. It's just a matter of lack of creativity on Mythic's side that does not got beyond mere and types of females.

Lack of creativity? If you are correct it isnt because of evidence of such, its due to pure luck.

If anything its faulty reasoning, not lack of creativity.

None the less, get over yourselves and get out of our damn high elf thread if you are just going to USE it to pick up old arguments that were declared over by admin and mods.

[Ceyl]

Its all about coolnes and a little bit about lore. Can they make female WL look cool, then no worries. If they for some reason cant make female WL look cool, I personally think they should stick with males, but I really think they will be in nomatter what.

I dont wanna go into that discussion, but I really wanna see those fan-based female chosen/marauder, has anybody got a link?

People tend to forget that Warhammer is a lot about cool. Having gender specific units in TT helps promote their iconicness, and I dont think Mythic should forsake coolness for political correctness.
That being said, I really hope they can make cool female WL, and I dont think it should be so difficult.

PS. Discussing physiology for other races is just pointless. As a generel rule humanoid female are a bit smaller than male, because thats how humans are in RL. End of discussion.

[Estebar]

Nowhere is it mentioned in the new High Elves army book that the White Lion initiates have to kill a lion with their bare hands. They simply have to hunt one with their weapons. The only Elf known to have killed a lion with his bare hands was Korhil, the strongest Elf in Ulthuan, which is why he's a Special Character.

Also, the White Lions aren't just measured on their strength. They're also defined by their courage, loyalty and ferocity - the three aspects most closely associated with the lion. Any High Elf female can embody these aspects just as well as a male.

In terms of silhouettes...looking at the Shadow Warrior and Swordmaster, seems to me that Mythic is "updating" the iconic imagery of each class. The Mythic Swordmaster looks more graceful and dynamic than the GW one (less chainmail and head-plumage for one thing) and the Mythic Shadow Warrior looks more... regal and Robin Hood-like. Like kings disguised as thieves. The White Lion's imagery will be adapted too. The physical strength aspect will be reduced somewhat by the presence of a hulking great lion as a pet.

Also, with the inclusion of females among the Black Guard - an elite corps of personal bodyguards for the Witch King said to be metaphorically "fed porridge and raw meat", according to Paul Barnett, to bulk them up a bit before encasing them in armor - chances are that the Phoenix King's elite corps of personal bodyguards will have females included among them as well.

[sophialvzu]

more specifically, they must slay it with their bare hands... let's be honest, no chick could do this.

Excuse me!!! But a girl with PMS is the most deadliest of creatures :p

[Squizz]

Elves are an equal opportunity race :p
When you live for 1000’s of years you can only take pure strength training so far, it is because of this reason that elves place much greater emphasis on martial skill. Once you have trained for that long strength would become largely irrelevant and the deciding factor in a fight would be speed, precision and skill.

[Estebar]

Elves are an equal opportunity race :p
When you live for 1000’s of years you can only take pure strength training so far, it is because of this reason that elves place much greater emphasis on martial skill. Once you have trained for that long strength would become largely irrelevant and the deciding factor in a fight would be speed, precision and skill. Precisely. I'd expect the skill in being a White Lion in WAR would be a) Being able to twirl a large Elven axe around using martial skill, not strength, and b) Being able to work with your War Lion effectively at the same time.

If you look at the GW White Lion miniatures and artwork, they've actually "cheated" making the White Lions look bulkier, with a little more muscle, but giving them baggy arm sleeves, a well-shaped chestplate and a mail skirt. Underneath all that is a regular Elven body shape, which might have a bit more hardened muscle to it, but not enough to actually alter the Elf's physical silhouette.

Mythic will be updating the White Lion look, and I imagine it will be done in a way which accomodates female equivalents too, like the Swordmaster and Black Guard.

[Chosen of the Raven]

Something tells me you missed out on the legions of female night elf hunters played by men in World of Warcraft. Don't do it Mythic. Don't make us suffer the pain and humiliation of another set of elves populated primarily by men playing as women.

[Estebar]

Something tells me you missed out on the legions of female night elf hunters played by men in World of Warcraft. Don't do it Mythic. Don't make us suffer the pain and humiliation of another set of elves populated primarily by men playing as women. Uh...there's actually nothing wrong with male players playing female avatars and roleplaying as them.

You're thinking of the legions of men who stripped their female Night Elves down to their underwear and made them dance and turn cyber-tricks for money. I don't think you'll be getting much of that here. For one thing, we can't dance. And I don't think we'll be able to strip down anywhere near as much as is possible in WOW.

So, there's nothing to worry about. Bring on the female White Lions.

[Gemini]

Something tells me you missed out on the legions of female night elf hunters played by men in World of Warcraft. Don't do it Mythic. Don't make us suffer the pain and humiliation of another set of elves populated primarily by men playing as women.

That might be the worst reason I've ever seen to restrict the gender of a class.

[Aelthurian Elthrai]

You're thinking of the legions of men who stripped their female Night Elves down to their underwear and made them dance and turn cyber-tricks for money. I don't think you'll be getting much of that here. For one thing, we can't dance. And I don't think we'll be able to strip down anywhere near as much as is possible in WOW.


Yes, this is Warhammer, not hammer.


Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

[Chosen of the Raven]

You people fail at sarcasm. In all honesty, Mythic can do whatever it likes with Order, I won't be playing any of its races or classes anyway.

Edit: The best roleplayer I ever knew in Warcraft played a female night elf rogue, his name was Steve and I won't divulge the name of his toon out of respect. But he was pretty awesome.

[Gemini]

You people fail at sarcasm. In all honesty, Mythic can do whatever it likes with Order, I won't be playing any of its races or classes anyway.



Yeah, damn us for magically recognizing sarcasm in text with no clues whatsoever.

[Bakebehe]

How many females wouldnt love to play a badass elven female wielding an axe and having a pet?



Night elf huntress/Blood elf...oh dear lawd it's all coming back to me now.

[Kaeldor]

Night elf huntress/Blood elf...oh dear lawd it's all coming back to me now.

Because most of those were played by females.... .

[Estebar]

You people fail at sarcasm. Well, you fail at using a "rolling eyes" emote to indicate that you're using sarcasm. :roll:

By the way, have I mentioned how visually appealing I think a female High Elf + massive War Lion "Beauty & the Beast" combo would look? :D

[Bakebehe]

Because most of those were played by females.... .


Every single one of the females I played with chose female characters, bar the tauren BARE tank in my last raid guild.
I know that's not most since men outnumber women, but proportionately more women played female characters.

[Kaeldor]

Every single one of the females I played with chose female characters, bar the tauren BARE tank in my last raid guild.
I know that's not most since men outnumber women, but proportionately more women played female characters.

I don't doubt that women play mostly female characters. Also the above was a half-hearted joke.

[Daze]

It depends a lot how they manage to portray the female White Lion. I don't want to see about sacrificing strength for agility and using something like two small axes. If it doesn't wear a huge two-handed axe it's not a White Lion. Hell, I'd rather see Warrior Priest wielding daggers than White Lion not wielding the axe.

Since they will propably make the female White Lion an option (can't see why they wouldn't), I will just hope that Mythic can make the female White Lion look good without making sacrifices.

[Estebar]

It depends a lot how they manage to portray the female White Lion. I don't want to see about sacrificing strength for agility and using something like two small axes. If it doesn't wear a huge two-handed axe it's not a White Lion. It's probably best for your sake that you don't look at the storyboard for the originally scripted White Lion vs. Sorceress cinematic battle then. That White Lion was dual-wielding a smaller one-handed axe and a sword.

...however, as we all know, the White Lion fighting the Witch Elf on the poster's swinging a big two-hander around (innuendoes ahoy!) so maybe they've come to their senses since back then.

[Chasington]

Because most of those were played by females.... .

Most of the girls I know that play WoW played Night Elf Huntresses as their mains.

They were pretty and they got kitties. (their words not mine)

[Saija Rii]

By the way, have I mentioned how visually appealing I think a female High Elf + massive War Lion "Beauty & the Beast" combo would look? :D

Aye, that would be awesome. I am a guy and would be sorely tempted to make a female white lion. That is very appealing.

Don't worry, I don't strip and if someone asks me to cyber I try and duel them or have my guild look out for them on the field of battle (To kill).

They were pretty and they got kitties. (their words not mine)

I've heard that before as well.

[ChosenOne]

Yeah, you really cant overestimate the amount of kitty love out there with the females. Its impossible to overestimate actually.

In fact its our main strategy to win.

You see, we first get the girls by offering them an attractive character as well as a kitty pet. No other race or faction can do that. :D


Its basically like the age old tradition of lady's night at the bar or club. You get the ladies to show up on your side and the guys will follow.

[Estebar]

*cues the multitude of High Elven "white p***y" jokes*

[Yavvy]

There's no reason not to.

Female White Lions will be in.

[Evander]

There's no reason not to.

Female White Lions will be in.

IF White Lions are in at all :P

[Mathis]

IF White Lions are in at all :P
IF White Lions aren't in, i'll go feet first into a wood-chipper and have my roommate put it on youtube. :roll:

concerning the thread, i've had a bit of a change of heart. i hope they make it in just for variety, as this class will almost certainly be overplayed.

[Noli me Tangere]

The problem with another gender restricted class (and this is why the Sorceress has Sorcerers that are playable, and not just fodder for you to hunt down in quests), is that there's already an entire race that can't be female (orcs, not to say they should be able to be female - they shouldn't - but let's call an apple and apple), and then Chaos has two male only classes, and then, of course, you have the Floss Clad Witch Elf that somehow balances that all out.

If you put in another non-female class you have a total of one, two, three , four, five, and six classes that lack any female gender option, and then you have the one Witch Elf class that males can't be. As is we're unbalanced in the area of classes that you can play as a female gender.

Adding one more to that.. just can't result in anything good.

At this point they either need to keep all classes available to both genders, or start back tracking and add the female gender to classes that can have females in the lore (like the Chosen) as part of their ranks.

[Smachaz]

Most of the girls I know that play WoW played Night Elf Huntresses as their mains.

They were pretty and they got kitties. (their words not mine)

Aye, that would be awesome. I am a guy and would be sorely tempted to make a female white lion. That is very appealing.

Don't worry, I don't strip and if someone asks me to cyber I try and duel them or have my guild look out for them on the field of battle (To kill).



I've heard that before as well.

Yeah, you really cant overestimate the amount of kitty love out there with the females. Its impossible to overestimate actually.

In fact its our main strategy to win.

You see, we first get the girls by offering them an attractive character as well as a kitty pet. No other race or faction can do that. :D


Its basically like the age old tradition of lady's night at the bar or club. You get the ladies to show up on your side and the guys will follow.

You guys took all the potential rugged badassness of White Lions and ravished it. :(


Anyways i don't see any reason to not add Female White Lion's execpt maybe for laziness issues. They might say something about being ''WoodsMEN''...

[Mathis]

If you put in another non-female class you have a total of one, two, three , four, five, and six classes that lack any female gender option, and then you have the one Witch Elf class that males can't be. As is we're unbalanced in the area of classes that you can play as a female gender.

Adding one more to that.. just can't result in anything good.

that's not really a fair statement as orcs are neither male nor female... it's really more like 2 male only classes to 1 female only. i don't feel adding another male restricted class would be a negative thing for balance issues. i just don't want it to happen to the class i intend to play.

[murkrow]

swordmasters are monks, if they can be women then so should white lions be able to.

[ChosenOne]

You guys took all the potential rugged badassness of White Lions and ravished it. :(


Anyways i don't see any reason to not add Female White Lion's execpt maybe for laziness issues. They might say something about being ''WoodsMEN''...


Why? Are you worried that the skill that calls your pet to your side will be called "Here kitty kitty kitty"? :lol:

[Feigro]

that's not really a fair statement as orcs are neither male nor female... it's really more like 2 male only classes to 1 female only. i don't feel adding another male restricted class would be a negative thing for balance issues. i just don't want it to happen to the class i intend to play.

Orcs still can't be females. So you have 6 classes that lack a female option.

[Mathis]

Orcs still can't be females. So you have 6 classes that lack a female option.

ok mr. troll, reread my post... i never contradicted the fact that there are 6 classes that cannot be female.

*edited for typo

[Feigro]

ok mr. troll, reread my post... i never contradicted the fact that there are 6 classes that cannot be female.


Actually, it was Noli's comment I had to reread. Not yours. I wasn't trolling you. I hadn't noticed she excluded the orcs in her comment regarding males (relegating them to one class).

I had thought your "orcs aren't male or female" bit was irrelevent due to that.

You're probably the first person in the history of the internet to refer to me as troll by the way. Which is actually what made me reread the whole post (the quote was misread).

In any event, it's 6 classes that can't be female, 5 that can't be male. So you're right, it's not really fair to not include orcs when addressing restrictions for both genders.

[Noli me Tangere]

Why? Are you worried that the skill that calls your pet to your side will be called "Here kitty kitty kitty"? :lol:

Your character could make a purring sound with their tongue too.

that's not really a fair statement as orcs are neither male nor female... it's really more like 2 male only classes to 1 female only. i don't feel adding another male restricted class would be a negative thing for balance issues. i just don't want it to happen to the class i intend to play.It doesn't at all change the facts of what I said in my post, really, you still have six that lack the female option.. no matter how it's said. Now, obviously, and I did say this, Orcs aren't male or female by definition of the lore.

Either way, concerning their gender, what they are is genderless while looking more masculine than feminine. Take that as you will.
As for an imbalance, it would be an imbalance in terms of male options versus female options. A cold hard matter of numbers. This one has more than that one. That's it. The imbalance, in terms of numbers, is already there, in fact, so why at all consider making it worse? They've already gone outside the lore by making every Dwarf Class playable by females, as far as we know. So I doubt they have too many scruples about a few more lore violations here and there.

As to whether that numbers imbalance would have some effect on the player base? I wouldn't know, such an answer would require the release of the game and a study of classes/races played based on persons that didn't play the game or didn't play certain classes or other such things based on the lesser amount of female gender options to play.

That's obviously not something I, or anyone, can do in a manner that would be accurate right now.

-
Not to say I'd be against White Lions being male only, if the matter of male to female classes wasn't currently in its state of inequality. I'd even approve of it, not that they need my approval mind you, if the Chosen were given a female option - as has been shown to be correct by the lore repeatedly.
Even then, though, you'd still have two male only classes, one entire race (4 classes) that lacked a female option, and one class that was female only. Preferably you'd have as many options as possible. In terms of the lore preferably you don't move outside the lore too much.

The idea there is meeting in the middle, where the number of gender restricted classes, by lore, were equal in number, giving a right balance. Meaning if you have 2 male only classes, you have 2 female only classes, and so on.

[Mathis]

i see where you're coming from, i just don't think balancing male and female characters in the game is that important. it has been my past experience that female toons are an overwhelming minority. not to mention chick gamers are like what, 2% of the total pop on a good day? would make a interesting poll if it hasn't been done already...

on a side note, i highly doubt WL's are even being considered as a unisex class.

[Athenys]

Speaking of female WL...I just submitted THIS (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/whitelioness.jpg) to Mythic :). I hope it gets me in the closed beta :( *crosses fingers*.

[Mathis]

impressive, good luck :)

[Tea TIme With Death]

I would rather them be male only, I thnk a female elf going after a usually chaos mutated white lion and defeating it in single combat with bare hands is just insulting the male race. the males should be going after ogres or giants then. And i highly doubt the females pump iron incase you wanna bring in some disgusting excuse of a female weightlifter who is "stronger than most guys!!!!11" picture from "I eat steroid sammiches" magazine.

and about the ratio It is really 1 female only vs 2 male only. If you wanna add orcs your just ignorant because it has been discussed a billion times and proven they are not men but animals. You are just adding on to your stereoype that girls cant be whatever a man can and can play somthing that looks like it kicks , or have a buffed up char, which is directly conflicting why you guys want the damn female class in the first place. Either start PLAYING damn orcs because of the classes and because you wanna "prove" you will play a class not 100% based off its looks, NOT its gender because they are genderless, or stop crying about it, because that doesnt help either.

guys dont care about the stereotype, females do, so untill you stop bringing up Orcs as males because they have muscles, you are just adding ignorance to that. Maybe If you stopped using terrible arguments (orcs) people would listen, but you just show ignroance when you type such things, not to mention it contradicts your whole point of females being equal in class gender is a fraking video game.

[Estebar]

I would rather them be male only, I thnk a female elf going after a usually chaos mutated white lion and defeating it in single combat with bare hands is just insulting the male race. the males should be going after ogres or giants then. And i highly doubt the females pump iron incase you wanna bring in some disgusting excuse of a female weightlifter who is "stronger than most guys!!!!11" picture from "I eat steroid sammiches" magazine. Oh, for the love of... :roll:

Look, for the 100th time, White Lions don't kill the lions with their bare hands. Only Korhil did that, and he happens to be the strongest Elf in Ulthuan.

White Lions aren't bulky muscleheads. They start out as hunters and woodsmen. They hunt the lions in their natural habitat (where the lions have the advantage) and defeat them in single combat using weapons. That's how initiates become White Lions. Period.

Now bring on the White Lionesses already.

[Feigro]

Even if they did do it with bare hands a female could do it anyway. As cool as one may think it be, I highly doubt the "bare hands" implies they bludgeoned the beast to death with their fists alone. In all actuality (yet I'm debating fantasy...) The majority of barehanded victories probably occured by the Elf in question getting the lion in a good hold and choking the beast to death.

Not that I'm even implying that a women couldn't bludgeon something to death with their fists either. Just for the "grawaar male is strong!" types - you could kill something using your bare hands while possessing very little physical strength at all if you get the thing in the right position.

If anything, we're talking more about speed and agility here than actual strength. Obviously you can't just be weak. But women aren't weak. A warrior-women would have the strength to strangle a cat. It has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with training. Just like a female Soldier would probably kick the arse of your average joe any day of the week.

[Noli me Tangere]

I would rather them be male only, I thnk a female elf going after a usually chaos mutated white lion and defeating it in single combat with bare hands is just insulting the male race. the males should be going after ogres or giants then. And i highly doubt the females pump iron incase you wanna bring in some disgusting excuse of a female weightlifter who is "stronger than most guys!!!!11" picture from "I eat steroid sammiches" magazine.

That.. that's just offensive. And flame bait.*sighs* What Estebar said, is about what I'd say though.

and about the ratio It is really 1 female only vs 2 male only. If you wanna add orcs your just ignorant because it has been discussed a billion times and proven they are not men but animals. You are just adding on to your stereoype that girls cant be whatever a man can and can play somthing that looks like it kicks , or have a buffed up char, which is directly conflicting why you guys want the damn female class in the first place. Either start PLAYING damn orcs because of the classes and because you wanna "prove" you will play a class not 100% based off its looks, NOT its gender because they are genderless, or stop crying about it, because that doesnt help either.
*sighs* The argument was about the lack of female character options on the destruction side (which effects the game as whole, thus effecting the order side), more particularly where female classes are concerned.
The Orcs are simply an example of that lack of option, as are the Chosen and Marauders. Orcs are what they should be, no gender options. However, that doesn't change the fact that people (whether they are male or female) that have a female melee DPS or Tank class in mind only have two options on the Destruction side.
And given the two options are both Dark Elves, that hardly is something that will fit everyone's taste, not to mention one of those classes is the barely clad Witch Elf, whose mechanics become ever less like the lore description.
Keep in mind, that the opinion here is about female character options. Orcs can't be male or female, but they are obviously not a female character option if you're looking for a character that is female. Simple as that. Not that they should be, again, I must stress Orcs are fine as is - I'm not suggesting they need, nor that they should have, a female character option. Destruction will likely stay exactly where it is, so my thought in expressing this opinion is more in the form of damage control.
There are already too many gender limited classes in the game. Given that they've shown no hesitance in changing the lore, giving the White Lion a female option would hardly be the worst thing they could do, especially given it would.. barely.. make up for the already limited options for those interested in female classes in the game.

guys dont care about the stereotype, females do, so untill you stop bringing up Orcs as males because they have muscles, you are just adding ignorance to that. Maybe If you stopped using terrible arguments (orcs) people would listen, but you just show ignroance when you type such things, not to mention it contradicts your whole point of females being equal in class gender is a fraking video game.Not really, the lack of female character options (no matter your own gender) is clear. It's not to say orcs should have the option, they shouldn't, it's to show that only two out of the total six melee classes, on the destruction side, have a female option. It's to point out the reason why we shouldn't further limit any other classes by gender, that being that there's already too much limitation in that area.

i see where you're coming from, i just don't think balancing male and female characters in the game is that important. it has been my past experience that female toons are an overwhelming minority. not to mention chick gamers are like what, 2% of the total pop on a good day? would make a interesting poll if it hasn't been done already...

The balance is the purpose, you have a clear line of classes that simply have nothing resembling a female option. By lore, several of them shouldn't, and lore following is good. I'm all for the lore. In this case, however, the result is that there is already a supreme lack of melee options for those (male or female) wanting to play female characters. They're almost entirely on the Order side, in fact, which doesn't appeal to everyone - the rest being in the Dark Elf camp, another faction that hardly appeals to everyone.

I'm not sure where you got the female gamer thing from, a lack of female character options effects both male and female gamers interested in playing female characters. And the last poll PCgamer quoted put female gamers in the 20% range, the only places that number increased were in instances of specific games (WoW - world of warcraft - and the Sims games, amongst a few others, were shown to have larger portions of female gamers than usually thought).

on a side note, i highly doubt WL's are even being considered as a unisex class.I sincerely hope that you're very wrong.

[murkrow]

my ex girlfriend could kick my .

From the classes available to order races, none of the female melee options will have the free spirited personality that we (or I) love so much in women. What am I fighting for if all the women alongside me are:

warrior priests - celibate religious fanatics

witch hunters - overzealous, deeply religious and unsexy in possibly every personality based way

swordmasters - monks

dwarves - alcoholics, ugly and physically incompatible.


the only women in the game so far that I can see my character chasing around are

1- bright wizards, and I don't even want to think about what that says about me.

2 - shadow warriors, same issue.


I really want us to have female white lions so that we can have women who have a real love for life, haven't dedicated themselves entirely to learning magic or killing dark elves.
Chracian white lions are one of the units that really epitomize why Ulthuan is worth fighting for and I want to fight alongside female ones so I can stare at them longingly while they cleave orcs in half and drink in my Saphery trained heals hungrily.

also, there is absolutely NO lore reason for white lions not to be female. Ulthuan is sparsely populated, anyone with the desire and ability to train (which women have, ask my ex girlfriend) would be welcomed with open arms into their order... after they kill a lion.

[Tea TIme With Death]

if you can find the brain cells to say that orcs hinder female choie, i can sound just as stupid and say it limits male choice as well. Play what you find fun, dont be biased from the start because of gender. i would have no second thoughts to playing a WE if it was my playstyle. I dont really care if they are male only or not, the whole ing about it though for EVERY RESTRCITED CLASSE (EXCEPT THE DAMN FEMALE ONLY) pisses me off so much.

[Hrafn]

if you can find the brain cells to say that orcs hinder female choie, i can sound just as stupid and say it limits male choice as well.

Lore or not, you cannot say that the Greenskins limit male choice.

By their sheer physical bearing they "look" male and so whether they actually have a between their legs or some mushroom spore puch is irrelevant. They look male ergo they create an additional "male" choice.

[Noli me Tangere]

Lore or not, you cannot say that the Greenskins limit male choice.

By their sheer physical bearing they "look" male and so whether they actually have a between their legs or some mushroom spore puch is irrelevant. They look male ergo they create an additional "male" choice.

Hm, true enough I guess, though my point was toward the idea of looking specifically for melee classes that could be female, especially on the destruction side. Orcs, whatever they may be, are clearly not that. That is all I really meant.

[Hrafn]

Yeah well my comments were targetted more at Tea Time than you, Noli.

[Tea TIme With Death]

Lore or not, you cannot say that the Greenskins limit male choice.

By their sheer physical bearing they "look" male and so whether they actually have a between their legs or some mushroom spore puch is irrelevant. They look male ergo they create an additional "male" choice.

no you cannot, they limit no ones choice.

[Noli me Tangere]

Yeah well my comments were targetted more at Tea Time than you, Noli.

Figured, but the thoughts occurred to me, so I figured "eh, why not?" :D

[Okri]

I would rather them be male only, I thnk a female elf going after a usually chaos mutated white lion and defeating it in single combat with bare hands is just insulting the male race. the males should be going after ogres or giants then. And i highly doubt the females pump iron incase you wanna bring in some disgusting excuse of a female weightlifter who is "stronger than most guys!!!!11" picture from "I eat steroid sammiches" magazine.

Why do you think females are inherently weaker than males? I might agree with you on that when regarding humans in the real world, but elves in a fantasy world? No way. You have no idea how the elf genders compare in terms of physical strength or anything else for that matter. So, any comparison to the real world and the relation between human males and females and so on, is quite pointless. It isn't uncommon for the female to be the dominant in other species, so why not elves?

I don't see anything standing in the way of female White Lions.

[Are'el]

The almost fanatical unwillingness to look beyond the lore when it comes to Greenskins is rather sad. Forget everything you know about them. Just look at them. Look at them from the eyes of the average gamer, the people who didn't hear about Warhammer until someone started flaming it on the WoW forums. What do you see, in regards to gender?

If you just raved, "They aren't male or female, they're fungus!" then you missed the point, and are quite possibly legally blind.

If you know nothing of the lore, and you look at the Orcs and Goblins, they appear to be distinctly male. I'm not saying they "are" male, I'm saying they "look" male. And to non-lorists, that distinction doesn't matter. As far as most people are concerned, there is no female choice in the Greenskins, and thus you're rolling a male.

If you're still insistant that what I just typed is wrong, then you're probably also one of those people who must obsessively correct fans of Star Trek everytime they say, "Beam me up, Scotty!" (which was never uttered in any episode). You probably also got teased in high school for telling other students at the pep rally that to the rest of the world, "soccer" is called football.

----------------------------------------
I agree with the rest of the posters here. There doesn't need to be another gender-specific Class. There's too many already (damn Chosen and Marauder debacle). Women could easily be White Loins, just as easily as they can be Warrior Priests and Ironbreakers.

[Gemini]

I'll give ya Orcs for that Are'el, but I don't see how goblins look male at all.

[Are'el]

I'll give ya Orcs for that Are'el, but I don't see how goblins look male at all.
There is more to distinguish man and woman besides muscle and size. After all, women can be muscular, and men can be skinny. What makes the Gobbos look male is thier lack of curves and breasts, and their hard, angular facial features. They certainly cannot be mistaken for female. At least, not in the artwork at the WAR website.

[Mathis]

The almost fanatical unwillingness to look beyond the lore when it comes to Greenskins is rather sad. Forget everything you know about them. Just look at them. Look at them from the eyes of the average gamer, the people who didn't hear about Warhammer until someone started flaming it on the WoW forums. What do you see, in regards to gender?

If you just raved, "They aren't male or female, they're fungus!" then you missed the point, and are quite possibly legally blind.

If you know nothing of the lore, and you look at the Orcs and Goblins, they appear to be distinctly male. I'm not saying they "are" male, I'm saying they "look" male. And to non-lorists, that distinction doesn't matter. As far as most people are concerned, there is no female choice in the Greenskins, and thus you're rolling a male.

If you're still insistant that what I just typed is wrong, then you're probably also one of those people who must obsessively correct fans of Star Trek everytime they say, "Beam me up, Scotty!" (which was never uttered in any episode). You probably also got teased in high school for telling other students at the pep rally that to the rest of the world, "soccer" is called football.

----------------------------------------
I agree with the rest of the posters here. There doesn't need to be another gender-specific Class. There's too many already (damn Chosen and Marauder debacle). Women could easily be White Loins, just as easily as they can be Warrior Priests and Ironbreakers.
so ellen degeneres is a male? this logic is ridiculous. you're arguing against fact because it appears not to be true. just because ignorant people don't understand something (thinking orcs are male) doesn't make them right... orcs are neither male nor female, period.

p.s. a paragraph flaming those who disagree with you doesn't make you appear very credible.

[Are'el]

so ellen degeneres is a male? this logic is ridiculous.
This is now my favorite comeback on these forums. Thank you for the lol. :mrgreen:

[Death-On-A-Stick]

Wait a second, White Lions as females are acceptable. It doesn't mess with any lore, physical capabilities that we know of or anything of the like. Female Chosen have been seen before, so they are acceptable. But female Orcs is where the line is drawn. No. Just no. We are not going to get the lore to bend over and screw with it, just so some Orcs are now slightly more curvy and have breasts. No. It's not done. They are fungus, they have never been known to have breasts and they never will. Orcs are killing machines, and sometimes the classic female physique is more of a hindrance. There is no reason. We are not going to sacrifice the lore for casual players, if a girls wants to play a Orc she has to get used to a slightly male looking character. An Orc is an Orc and I don't think EA Mythic will ever allow the lore to be bent that far for the more casual players. I don't care if it harms the sales a bit, it doesn't make too big a difference. The lore should never be bent to such an extent that there are female Orcs, when that day comes WAR will be a lot worse.

[Are'el]

Wait a second, White Lions as females are acceptable. It doesn't mess with any lore, physical capabilities that we know of or anything of the like. Female Chosen have been seen before, so they are acceptable. But female Orcs is where the line is drawn. No. Just no. We are not going to get the lore to bend over and screw with it, just so some Orcs are now slightly more curvy and have breasts. No. It's not done. They are fungus, they have never been known to have breasts and they never will. Orcs are killing machines, and sometimes the classic female physique is more of a hindrance. There is no reason. We are not going to sacrifice the lore for casual players, if a girls wants to play a Orc she has to get used to a slightly male looking character. An Orc is an Orc and I don't think EA Mythic will ever allow the lore to be bent that far for the more casual players. I don't care if it harms the sales a bit, it doesn't make too big a difference. The lore should never be bent to such an extent that there are female Orcs, when that day comes WAR will be a lot worse.
Nobody said that there should be a female Greenskin choice. We just commented that it's a race where there's already a large chunk of gender-restricted Classes, and further gender-restriction in the rest of the races would be bad.

[Death-On-A-Stick]

Ah. It appears that I misinterpreted what you were saying. Well that's okay then. No lore against any of the other classes, so there's no major problem.

[murkrow]

so ellen degeneres is a male? this logic is ridiculous. you're arguing against fact because it appears not to be true. just because ignorant people don't understand something (thinking orcs are male) doesn't make them right... orcs are neither male nor female, period.

p.s. a paragraph flaming those who disagree with you doesn't make you appear very credible.

ORKS CALL EACH OTHER BOYZ!!!!!!!!!!!


P.S. if I saw ellen degeneres in WAR I'd think she was a man.

[Estebar]

Not that I'm trying to build flimsy bridges here, but if you look at the Greenskins from an extremely prejudiced, male-chauvinist point of view, (not my own, you understand, but that which is part of football hooliganism - an essential aspect of the Greenskins), the Goblins are the "female" classes.

They are shorter, physically weaker creatures with cunning and a penchant towards hoarding loot to decorate themselves to show status among their peers - a very negative concept of women in comparison to men, yes, but just as insulting as saying that all men are large, brutish idiots who enjoy nothing more than fighting and bullying. It's an extreme take on women and men from a warped macho perspective.

In this way, the Greenskin class genders are split right down the middle - the Black Orc and Choppa representing "males" while the Shaman and Squig Hunter represent "females" in a way. This can be matched by the fact that most Shamans and SH's I've seen so far have worn dress-like robes. It's not necessarily that the Goblins are "feminine" - the point is that they're "effeminate" from a male-chauvinist Greenskin point of view because breeding isn't something they have to worry about, so gender distinction derives from the division between the strong (superior), and the weak (inferior).

[Feigro]

ORKS CALL EACH OTHER BOYZ!!!!!!!!!!!

Something they learned to do from the Empire. Which with primarily male regiments, likely had many commanders shout many a time, "Get a move on, boys!". Same reason they use Ladz as well. "Stay strong, lads!".

Everything the Orcs say is taken from existing languages.

[Ridiculous]

so ellen degeneres is a male? this logic is ridiculous. you're arguing against fact because it appears not to be true. just because ignorant people don't understand something (thinking orcs are male) doesn't make them right... orcs are neither male nor female, period.

p.s. a paragraph flaming those who disagree with you doesn't make you appear very credible.


Orcs are phenotypically male. They appear male and are behaviorally male.
They are not male or female if you look at it in terms of XX/XY(Fungi don't have XX/XY?)But why would you in this case?

A female player looking to create a female avatar would not make an Orc anymore than a male player looking to make a male avatar would make a female human..
Simple.

[Noli me Tangere]

Orcs are phenotypically male. They appear male and are behaviorally male.
They are not male or female if you look at it in terms of XX/XY(Fungi don't have XX/XY?)But why would you in this case?

A female player looking to create a female avatar would not make an Orc anymore than a male player looking to make a male avatar would make a female human..
Simple.

A male or female player looking to create a female avatar. :D

-

I'm a bit torn, on one hand I like there was be as little lore bending as possible. On the other hand, I like there being as many options as possible, and gender is an option. One thing to keep in mind, I suppose, is that it's hardly game breaking.

At the same time, I remember in past games I've played just how many female avatars I saw running around on a given day. My guild and grouping experiences, via voice chat, have also taught me just now 'not' rare female gamers are. Then again, it's also taught me that both genders are prone to play avatars of either gender, and rather readily at that.

My experience is skewed, however, I must admit. Most of the people I group with, and most Guilds I join, have something in common - role-playing. I tend to like playing these games with other role-players. Which is not to say they don't raid or take part in group PvE content or take part in RvR or PvP - they do, in all cases. But I'm sure that that has something to do with why my experience tells me that both genders play both genders, and that that is also why I feel it is important for gender options to exist.. where appropriate.

However, if where appropriate becomes too limiting.. that's another thing entirely. Take that in reference to this thread as you will.

[murkrow]

I wish the player's gender was displayed next to their name.


I'm so sick of girls I flirt with on my WoW RP servers saying stuff like "Im a dude rpfag"

[Gemini]

Maybe you shouldn't flirt with random female avatars on an MMO? :P

[Hrafn]

That depends Murk on whether you are flirting IC or OOC.

If IC then fine, I'd rp along although my female char is too devoted to her duty to spend time in meaningless pursuits like flirting. I'd likely tell to you stop gripping on to your rod, take hold of your staff and prepare for war. ;)

If OOC then you're on your own mate. You leave yourself wide open for flaming, harassment etc in that regard.

[murkrow]

Of Course It's Ic!

[Hrafn]

Of Course It's Ic!

Good.

Sadly I've seen too many allow themselves to blur the lines between the two and read too much into the OOC when there has been nothing there at all.

[Aerania]

Speaking of female WL...I just submitted THIS (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b362/aimelek/whitelioness.jpg) to Mythic :). I hope it gets me in the closed beta :( *crosses fingers*.


This is why we should get female White Lions. Can I put this in my sig?

I'm female IRL, I'm going to Uni next year to study Animal Behaviour, and I want a female pet class. I don't want to have to play as a male to get my cat. As for men being physically stronger, even with humans thats not true! Mothers have been known to lift up the end of a car to reach their trapped baby. And these weren't body building macho women, these are regular mothers whose child is in great danger, and they can perform astonishing acts of strength. Anyway, these are elves not humans, and as many people have pretty much trodden any argument saying that we shouldn't get female white lions because "they aren't strong enough," into the ground, if people continue using this as a reason to deny women our petclass you are just prooving how dumb you are.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

As for men being physically stronger, even with humans thats not true! Mothers have been known to lift up the end of a car to reach their trapped baby. And these weren't body building macho women, these are regular mothers whose child is in great danger, and they can perform astonishing acts of strength. Anyway, these are elves not humans, and as many people have pretty much trodden any argument saying that we shouldn't get female white lions because "they aren't strong enough," into the ground, if people continue using this as a reason to deny women our petclass you are just prooving how dumb you are.
Yes, however men have also done this. . . and some do it without any reason other than to win some silly competition. I find it impressive how often people are willing to debate this, but its a common known fact that most of the time men are stronger.

Now I recently read that the White Lion has to kill a lion with his axe, and frankly, that doesn't sound so bad even if it is some amazing super-cat. Afterall, Dwarfs kill Trolls and Dragons with axes.

So, while I disagree with the concept of men = women in terms of strength, I don't think that really matters so much since this is a fantasy setting and one only needs so much strength to kill a cat with an axe.

...also, all you Elves might as well be women anyway, so I'm not seeing the distinction.

[Wazdakka]

This is why we should get female White Lions. Can I put this in my sig?

I'm female IRL, I'm going to Uni next year to study Animal Behaviour, and I want a female pet class. I don't want to have to play as a male to get my cat. As for men being physically stronger, even with humans thats not true! Mothers have been known to lift up the end of a car to reach their trapped baby. And these weren't body building macho women, these are regular mothers whose child is in great danger, and they can perform astonishing acts of strength. Anyway, these are elves not humans, and as many people have pretty much trodden any argument saying that we shouldn't get female white lions because "they aren't strong enough," into the ground, if people continue using this as a reason to deny women our petclass you are just prooving how dumb you are.

I'm going with the "there should be females" line for this too. Frankly, no man could kill a lion with his bare hands without some freakish luck, either. Even then I am trying to think what kind of luck could cause that...lion heart attack? One can only assume that they are taught lion management techniques like a lion tamer (or bullfighter) has, and it is their courage and skill that defeats the lion. Women have courage and skill too.

[Death-On-A-Stick]

You know a Female White Lion might actually make a lot of sense. Now as a lot of us know, the male Lion isn't too much to worry about. But the Female one well... they are a bugger. So if a Female White Lion came with a Female Lion then I'd think that's quite a cool way to go. Just a thought that occured to me, it would certainlly make the class apealing, the male Elves with their might proud lions and the female Elves with the smaller but crafty Lionesses.

[Aerania]

Women can be pretty ferocious too. You should see my mum when my dad comes around ( they are seperated.) Shes frickkin terrifying! Women are stereotypically more graceful, but that doesnt mean a good percentage of the population is graceful. Mythic shouldn't base the choices they make about this game on stereotypes.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

So far Mythic has been fairly liberal about female/male class choice. From Dwarfs to Empire to Dark Elves (sorry Chaos, but thats what you get for being evil). So I would assume White Lion would get both choices.

[ChosenOne]

What are you people going on about still?

From what I have learned, only ONE high elf ever beat a white lion with his bare hands so whomever is basing your argument on men only being able to do such is pretty much beating a dead horse on this one. That means you are getting no where with it.

So if its being done with weapons then once again strength isnt the only asset that matters. In fact against such an animal if you are basing your entire strategy on overpowering with strength then you are probably going to lose. Then again, thats if we were basing this on reality which of course we are not.

So with that in mind why do you guys care if the ladies get to have female toons for the white lion class?

[Ridiculous]

So with that in mind why do you guys care if the ladies get to have female toons for the white lion class?

I think people just don't want their class "tarnished" NE Hunter(Kitty Cat!) style.

But yeah.. Strength could be used as an argument against females for any melee class so I don't see it being valid here.

No reason to restrict the class(Other than to save HE some dignity:))considering the other restrictions/Apparently no huge lore break.

I think people just have bad memories of the 1000s of NE hunters.

[ChosenOne]

I think people just don't want their class "tarnished" NE Hunter(Kitty Cat!) style.

But yeah.. Strength could be used as an argument against females for any melee class so I don't see it being valid here.

No reason to restrict the class(Other than to save HE some dignity:))considering the other restrictions/Apparently no huge lore break.

I think people just have bad memories of the 1000s of NE hunters.

Um, this class will have tons of characters even if its just male toons. Also I dont see how it saves HE dignity to not have women white lion characters.

If the class resembles the NE hunters then that is the fault of Mythic for seriously screwing the pooch with this class. They really need to make it possibly to have a symbiotic relationship between the elf and lion. Meaning skills for both that are dependent on skills from the other. Not that the entire playstyle has to be that way, but perhaps a path.

If that happens then I will consider the mold broken.

[Aerania]

[quote=ChosenOne;830328
. They really need to make it possibly to have a symbiotic relationship between the elf and lion. Meaning skills for both that are dependent on skills from the other. Not that the entire playstyle has to be that way, but perhaps a path.

[/quote]


That would really make the class for me. I'm sure there are plenty of ways that Mythic can make the White Lions unique though, so for them to just be mimics of hunters on WoW would just be lazy really.

[Kaeldor]

I really doubt the WL will be male only. It's the last class that they'll announce. And "it'll be great, and awesome and trule exciting ..... and umm well no females sorry". I just doubt they'd do that. Especially because there is no reason for it, lorewise or gameplaywise.

As I hate petclasses myself, I hope that the WH get as kind of chioce in his masteries, something like: no pet, pet light, pet heavy.

[Broximar]

I really doubt the WL will be male only. It's the last class that they'll announce. And "it'll be great, and awesome and trule exciting ..... and umm well no females sorry". I just doubt they'd do that. Especially because there is no reason for it, lorewise or gameplaywise.

As I hate petclasses myself, I hope that the WH get as kind of chioce in his masteries, something like: no pet, pet light, pet heavy.

nope a pet class should never get a tree so that he dosent need is pet. is masteries you be something like changing the utility of you pet like: DPS, CC/snare, DOT/debuff

[murkrow]

someone close this thread!!

[Gemini]

That is a good idea, maybe something like the Swordmaster's attack chains but done with a pet. Or even just a simple builder/finisher system like the Black Orc with the pet doing the builders.

While the White Lion beats on the target, the White lion pounces on him (builder), tears a chunk of flesh from his leg (builder), and then the White Lion performs a huge cleaving attack into the weakened enemy (finisher).

someone close this thread!!

If you want a thread closed you can report it, but I don't see why it should be closed personally.

[murkrow]

because we're talking about WL mechanics now.

There's nothing more to be said about the gender issue, every possible argument against female WL has been debunked.

[lnquisitor]

What!?!?! I thought all High Elves were girls. You know, as a mirror for all Orcs being boyz. Guess I got to look closer.

[Broximar]

What!?!?! I thought all High Elves were girls. You know, as a mirror for all Orcs being boyz. Guess I got to look closer.
.......i hope your joking and you know that the greenskins dont have sex

[lnquisitor]

.......i hope your joking and you know that the greenskins dont have sex

Well never do High elves apparently they are not equipped for it either.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

What!?!?! I thought all High Elves were girls. You know, as a mirror for all Orcs being boyz. Guess I got to look closer.
Well never do High elves apparently they are not equipped for it either.

It all makes sense now. They wouldn't let Malekith become king 'cause hes a guy. Then, due to blatant High Elf sexism, Malekith left.

[Mathis]

the maturity level of this thread has sunken below that of barren's chat... plz close it.

[ChosenOne]

What!?!?! I thought all High Elves were girls. You know, as a mirror for all Orcs being boyz. Guess I got to look closer.

The only reason this post is amusing is because there is no real genetic difference between Dark elves and High elves.

Easily explained though by the dark elf emo stereotype and the desire to hurt one's self.

[Infallius_Daemonium]

The only reason this post is amusing is because there is no real genetic difference between Dark elves and High elves.

...so you both don't have men?

[Estebar]

...so you both don't have men? At least we have real women, dwarf.

*pokes around in a large mass of dwarven facial hair on a nearby stunty to tell whether or not it might have a chance at being considered female* :-P

[ChosenOne]

...so you both don't have men?

So I highly suggest you try and come up with something a little more thoughtful.

The whole elven men are effeminate and dwarven females are masculine is pretty much been covered and considered yawnable material at this point. Perhaps its time you catch up with the rest of the class?

[Infallius_Daemonium]

So I highly suggest you try and come up with something a little more thoughtful.

The whole elven men are effeminate and dwarven females are masculine is pretty much been covered and considered yawnable material at this point. Perhaps its time you catch up with the rest of the class?
Catch up to a bunch of Elves? I think I'll walk thank you, and if you're lucky, march. But no, like any true Dwarf, where I am is the correct time. It is the Elves who need to slow down, always sprinting about with their tiny little legs.

[ChosenOne]

Catch up to a bunch of Elves? I think I'll walk thank you, and if you're lucky, march. But no, like any true Dwarf, where I am is the correct time. It is the Elves who need to slow down, always sprinting about with their tiny little legs.

Which is amusing considering we are in the White Lion forum. The leader of such group having overcome a massive beast with his bare hands. Oh yes that just screams weakness to me. :roll:

Seriously, your entire perspective is based off of prejudice. You have no fact to your points what so ever.

Thank you for the chances to point out such silliness over and over. Just keep up with the beer and I am sure you shall continue to entertain us.

[OmegaGryphon]

I submit this, in lion society the male lions do nothing but make sure the female lions are pregnant and fight off other males who want his lionesses. It is the female lion that does the hunting, so they are theoretically would be better for stalking and fighting to take down prey. So a female white lion I would have no problem with.

[Yojinj]

I still doubt the MDPS will be the white lion. Without pet, sure. They got no pets in TT.. but a pet MDPS class sounds as silly to me like a tanking RDPS.

[murkrow]

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/highelves/extras/preview/images/Chariot2_lg.jpg
chracian elves train white lions on the TT

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/images/conceptart/CnAT100732s.jpg
white lion concept art

[Squizz]

I still doubt the MDPS will be the white lion. Without pet, sure. They got no pets in TT.. but a pet MDPS class sounds as silly to me like a tanking RDPS.

How many times must it be said: Mythic has already announced that order will have a pet class and with only one class left to reveal... well... you figure it out.
Care to elaborate as to why a MDPS pet class is 'silly'?

[Infallius_Daemonium]

Which is amusing considering we are in the White Lion forum. The leader of such group having overcome a massive beast with his bare hands. Oh yes that just screams weakness to me. :roll:

A massive lion. Which is not very impressive, since its a lion. Should we base everything Slayers do off of Gotrek? Also, while I didn't say White Lions are weak in that post, I will agree with that now.

Seriously, your entire perspective is based off of prejudice. You have no fact to your points what so ever.

Thank you for the chances to point out such silliness over and over. Just keep up with the beer and I am sure you shall continue to entertain us.
My entire perspective is based off of facts, interpreted in a very impressive way. I already debated using facts, and I am very willing to do so again if the need arises. Also, while I don't drink beer, if arguing about innate Dwarf superiority over Elves entertains you, I will try and supply you with it as much as possible.

Oh, and you're welcome. ;)

[Gemini]

I submit this, in lion society the male lions do nothing but make sure the female lions are pregnant and fight off other males who want his lionesses. It is the female lion that does the hunting, so they are theoretically would be better for stalking and fighting to take down prey. So a female white lion I would have no problem with.

I think you missed the point. The discussion is about the Elves being female, not the Lions.

[OmegaGryphon]

I think you missed the point. The discussion is about the Elves being female, not the Lions.
I meant both being able to be female and white lions since that is what they are called.

[lnquisitor]

The only reason this post is amusing is because there is no real genetic difference between Dark elves and High elves.
One genetic difference, it is just hidden by a cod piece is all.

[ChosenOne]

One genetic difference, it is just hidden by a cod piece is all.

Yeah, I suppose if Malekith had my "piece" cut off I would have quite a bit of hatred stored up in me too.

[gecko155]

I think it is slightly amusing that alot of people are getting so heated about this. XD
On topic: I imagine they will have female white lions. They have Male Sorceress'!
So ya.

[Browncoat-WHA]

If you folks have nothing more to discuss about the topic, I'd be more than happy to just close the thread for you. Let's get it back on topic and constructive, please.

[gecko155]

Okay so here is my own question on the matter: I imagine the will have Female white lions, though maybe not. If they did: how well do you think they could accomplish it?

[Kharlene]

Accomplish what? Defeating a lion with an axe or some form of melee weapon? I think that sort of answers itself via simple deduction. If you're asking lore-wise, it's been stated numerous times in this thread alone by the lore-buffs that there's nothing in the "lore" itself saying there are no female White Lions, thus... there's no reason stating there couldn't be any. The reason they aren't mentioned simple deduction would be (at least in my mind) that the writers stuck with only telling tales of the "uber-males" than that of any badass axe wielding elf-women.

[Feigro]

Accomplish what? Defeating a lion with an axe or some form of melee weapon? I think that sort of answers itself via simple deduction. If you're asking lore-wise, it's been stated numerous times in this thread alone by the lore-buffs that there's nothing in the "lore" itself saying there are no female White Lions, thus... there's no reason stating there couldn't be any. The reason they aren't mentioned simple deduction would be (at least in my mind) that the writers stuck with only telling tales of the "uber-males" than that of any badass axe wielding elf-women.

He was asking how well people think Mythic would do in designing the female white lion.

He never said anything about female elves killing lions. The "they" is refering to mythic.

[Ominous Anonymous]

The Asur are far too short on fighters in general to let something like misogyny hold them back. ;)

[Ranien]

The Asur are far too short on fighters in general to let something like misogyny hold them back. ;)

This is true. The army book says that all High Elves are taught the arts of war from an early age. They do not discriminate between male and female for their armies because, in truth, they can't afford to have any lack of soldiers, especially for a petty reason like gender.

Whatever the final career may be, White Lion or not, it's not going to be a gender restricted career. It wouldn't make sense from a lore, design or even a common sense point of view.

[dandepaap]

what I hate about this male/female chat is that I heard NO complaints what soever about wichelfs being female only, The thing is everyone wants to see sexy slender "as feminin as you can get" characters ripping the guts out of somone. But I personaly would like to see More Bulky manly big shoulders big beard sweaty guys with great big swords and rugger armor(leather mail plate) beating the crap out of eachother. But the thing is.. real Manlyness(is that the right word for it?) is not apriciated annymore. while without these real men anny socity would colapse becouse NO way can women do all the heavy stuf that men do. Its just physicaly imposible. But since this is a game thats based on a wide public its ok.

but what I hate the most is that If your a warrior woman, you will problably also be sweaty muscular, you wont have hair looking like in the shampoo comercials and their faces need to look grity. becouse combat isnt nice.. its not like that chineese shop on the corner where they do your nails. its not sitting in the sun all day working on your tan. its smashing skulls in chopping hands of with great lumps of mettal forged to do so (ok swords tend to be verry light but we are talking about Axes and they be heavy).

also to come back on a certain post saying that 100000000 years of training blabla. in order to become a good skilled fighter you need both. since this is all medival style fighting physical strength is a must. aswell as agility. becouse parrying an incoming blow will need physical strength.

all with all I think they should give the Whitelions female characters, But don't make em look like paris hilton with an oversized chiuaua. no make em look like Mean amazonian women with big arms and legs and broad shoulders aswel. so they feel menacing. still femeninin.

PS: testosterone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone

Estrogen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrogen

[Sinnahis]

This is true. The army book says that all High Elves are taught the arts of war from an early age. They do not discriminate between male and female for their armies because, in truth, they can't afford to have any lack of soldiers, especially for a petty reason like gender.

Whatever the final career may be, White Lion or not, it's not going to be a gender restricted career. It wouldn't make sense from a lore, design or even a common sense point of view.

I am not saying they will be gender restricted (atleast I hope they will not) but don't forget about female Marauders and Chosen, the same lame excuse could be applied to female White Lions just as easily.

[Volkos Lark]

I do not know the excuse for the female chosen, but there were female chosen in the books. I think it was in Trollslayer that the chosen champion of Khorne (NB not Slaanesh, but Khorne) was female.

[Squizz]

what I hate about this male/female chat is that I heard NO complaints what soever about wichelfs being female only, The thing is everyone wants to see sexy slender "as feminin as you can get" characters ripping the guts out of somone. But I personaly would like to see More Bulky manly big shoulders big beard sweaty guys with great big swords and rugger armor(leather mail plate) beating the crap out of eachother. But the thing is.. real Manlyness(is that the right word for it?) is not apriciated annymore. while without these real men anny socity would colapse becouse NO way can women do all the heavy stuf that men do. Its just physicaly imposible. But since this is a game thats based on a wide public its ok.

but what I hate the most is that If your a warrior woman, you will problably also be sweaty muscular, you wont have hair looking like in the shampoo comercials and their faces need to look grity. becouse combat isnt nice.. its not like that chineese shop on the corner where they do your nails. its not sitting in the sun all day working on your tan. its smashing skulls in chopping hands of with great lumps of mettal forged to do so (ok swords tend to be verry light but we are talking about Axes and they be heavy).

also to come back on a certain post saying that 100000000 years of training blabla. in order to become a good skilled fighter you need both. since this is all medival style fighting physical strength is a must. aswell as agility. becouse parrying an incoming blow will need physical strength.

all with all I think they should give the Whitelions female characters, But don't make em look like paris hilton with an oversized chiuaua. no make em look like Mean amazonian women with big arms and legs and broad shoulders aswel. so they feel menacing. still femeninin.


The reason there wasn't many complaints about witch elves being gender restricted is because male witch elves don't exists, check the lore.
As for the arguement that you need both strength and skill to be an effective fighter, that is true but you don't exactly need olympic weight lifter like strength to swing an axe effectively, infact having a large amount of muscle mass would restrict how your arms can move and make your swings less effective. If you think a woman cannot be strong enough to use her weapon of choice after 1000's of years of training with it then you are incredibly ignorant.

I'm sure the female white lion will not look like a supermodel or be wearing a lion fur bikini, just look at the female swordmaster art then imagine her in a white lions armour, viola... a female white lion. Take a look at the male white lions they are hardly bulging with muscles, infact they are just as skinny as any other elf.

[Norick13]

I hope that they can be females. My girlfriend just say what the class entailed (she loves being a 'hunter'), and I just hope that she'll be able to be a female one.

[Aeviryn]

I am not sure if this has been posted, but it's from the Gamespot interview:

"War lions start out as younglings, and as the player grows in power, so does his or her pet"

[littleskag]

more specifically, they must slay it with their bare hands... let's be honest, no chick could do this.

They are freaking ELVES that means they take things seriously and never give up...and who says the females aren't buff....ick

[littleskag]

^^
I mean buff as in can't scratch their back btw.

[Harlequin70]

Although there are no Gender restrictions (there are some actually) in the Asur military there are gender bias and history in the way the various Regiments still operate.
Basically a female can be anything she wants but were not going to openly encourage/invite them to join up.

There are some restrictions though:
The Maiden Guard is an All Female Force.
For Dragon Princes gender isn't an issue only bloodline and power/political clout/skill/wealth issue and of course being a Caledorian.
Apart from the Maiden Guard, Swordmasters and Phoenix Guard you have to be from the Province the Regiment Comes from to be one of them, i.e a White Lion has to be from Chrace, a Reaver from Ellyrion etc etc.
There are also certain Province biases and whatnot, i.e. in Caledor the birthright, linage of the Son over the Daughter, inheritance and importance in terms of title etc. This has given to the rise to a few Caledorian females of wealth but no power to disguise themselves as males to join combat.

[tedhogan]

actually believe it or not on youtube a idiot posted footage of white lion gameplay and it shows both genders, i can post the link if you like:p

[tedhogan]

the link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOfdehteBE hope this clears it up :D

[Exacerberus]

the link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOfdehteBE hope this clears it up :DNo double posting allowed. Edit the previous one next time.

[tedhogan]

o sorry im new here ill make the change right away:rolleyes:

[Deshiva]

Although there are no Gender restrictions (there are some actually) in the Asur military there are gender bias and history in the way the various Regiments still operate.
Basically a female can be anything she wants but were not going to openly encourage/invite them to join up.

There are some restrictions though:
The Maiden Guard is an All Female Force.
For Dragon Princes gender isn't an issue only bloodline and power/political clout/skill/wealth issue and of course being a Caledorian.
Apart from the Maiden Guard, Swordmasters and Phoenix Guard you have to be from the Province the Regiment Comes from to be one of them, i.e a White Lion has to be from Chrace, a Reaver from Ellyrion etc etc.
There are also certain Province biases and whatnot, i.e. in Caledor the Son over Daughter inheritance and importance thing in terms of title etc it has given to the rise of a few Caledorian females of wealth but no power to disguise themselves as males fo join combat.

I dont know if swordmasters where specifically from same regions, they where handpicked based on skill and potential or something such. Wich makes me suspect they sent out their own agents to check out potentials no matter where they be. Hmm wish I had the lore ready at hand to read now

[GhostTree]

I read the section about sword masters in the high elf codex, it does not say anything about swordmasters only coming from Saphery, I think they can be from anywhere as long as they are High Elves.

[Harlequin70]

I never said Swordmasters only came from Saphery, I stated Swordmasters where one of the few types that could come from any region.
Example would be the greatest Swormaster to ever live (he trained Tyrion and Eltharion and can still beat both in combat). Hallar who came from a prominant Caledorian family.

[GhostTree]

I never said Swordmasters only came from Saphery, I stated Swordmasters where one of the few types that could come from any region.
Example would be the greatest Swormaster to ever live (he trained Tyrion and Eltharion and can still beat both in combat). Hallar who came from a prominant Caledorian family.

oh sorry I thought you said they came from one region only.

[Deshiva]

ah apoligies, missed that little "apart" word there. Big difference

[Ymrar]

People saying that a female HE cannot take down a lion, dont make sense in many ways.

1st We're talking about a race that does not exist. It's a fantasy world, anything is possible.
2nd You actually think downing any animal with bare hands is only a matter of raw strength? There is much technique involved even downing a mere cow, dont want to even think what kind of technique would be needed to down a lion (i'm sure a real lion tamer could tell if a human can do it..;))
3rd High Elves are a magical race, they all use magic in one form or the other. If it's not pure spells, its attunement to your skills in other ways.
4th Even in our world there are many women who do feats of raw strength far superior to an average man. As someone said we're not talking olympics weightlifting..
5th If you think the class breaks lore because there is no figures with female White Lions.. Well, you know that this pet class doesnt even exist in TT. They do not have lions in the ranks with them.. Might even be that female elves are better attuned to actually taming the lion, and the class made female only.. :P (<-sarcasm, i know both can make the class)

These are just from the top of my head. I'm sure i can come up with more.. ;)

[Elwyndas Ellorian]

I thought this question had already been answered?

I think there is enough info here and in other places to lay the debate to rest.