Soul Essence, can you store it?

[Chakar]

Will you be able to "store" the Soul Essence?

If you hit someone and gain lets say 20 SE, can you save them and use them in another situation? Or will they disapear after some time? If you don't want to waste it right at the moment. Anyone has heard anything?

[Krouv]

I can say with almost 100% certainty that they dissappear pretty quickly when you're out of battle. Anything else would be ridiculous, and that's how Waaagh! and Grudges work too.

[Ayetalam]

I can say with almost 100% certainty that they dissappear pretty quickly when you're out of battle. Anything else would be ridiculous, and that's how Waaagh! and Grudges work too.

Actually from what I saw in interview videos. It starts out full, and as you use it, it depletes. If in combat to replenish it you have to melee, out of combat it would regenerate on its own. Its what the video interview with Adam and Josh showed. So its the exact opposite of how WAAAGH and Grudge works.

[Xoulz]

Will you be able to "store" the Soul Essence?

If you hit someone and gain lets say 20 SE, can you save them and use them in another situation? Or will they disapear after some time? If you don't want to waste it right at the moment. Anyone has heard anything?

Soul Essence will probably be a pool that takes alot of dmg to build up and then slowly drains away after combat.

While in combat, healing will require some good logistics to properly manage your mana and essence bars. Meaning... knowing when to use your instant essence-based heals or your slower mana-based heals.

It's all situational and will require a quick thinking mind to be one of the better Disciples in the game. Deciding on using a large single heal on the tank, or do you have time to re-target and heal a near bye Witch Elf thats been tearing it up. Or... use a more costly spell that consumes most of your "essence bar" with a big AOE heal?


To answer your question, I would guess that a full "essence bar" would take 5 minutes of out of combat, to fully be depleted.




-Xoulz

[Slice]

Actually from what I saw in interview videos. It starts out full, and as you use it, it depletes. If in combat to replenish it you have to melee, out of combat it would regenerate on its own. Its what the video interview with Adam and Josh showed. So its the exact opposite of how WAAAGH and Grudge works.
Wrong. You start out with 0 essence, and gain essence by meleeing (or using certain skills that turn AP into EP), and it delpetes at a moderate rate out of combat - think about 15-20 seconds of no combat to go from a full stash to 0 EP.


While in combat, healing will require some good logistics to properly manage your mana and essence bars. Meaning... knowing when to use your instant essence-based heals or your slower mana-based heals.
All Disciple heals are Essence-based. None of them require AP.

To answer your question, I would guess that a full "essence bar" would take 5 minutes of out of combat, to fully be depleted.
Not a chance in hell. It will take, at most, 30 seconds for the full bar to deplete.

[Ayetalam]

Wrong. You start out with 0 essence, and gain essence by meleeing (or using certain skills that turn AP into EP), and it delpetes at a moderate rate out of combat - think about 15-20 seconds of no combat to go from a full stash to 0 EP.


All Disciple heals are Essence-based. None of them require AP.


Not a chance in hell. It will take, at most, 30 seconds for the full bar to deplete.

Again, you are incorrect because you are too lazy to watch the videos. Look at the video:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/29631

At 1:10 before combat, at 4:35 during combat, and 6:00 during combat. The bubble to the right of the bar is always full and at 500 (it can't be AP since AP is 250). Second, None of his Essence gaining abilities did anything to the bar. and they didnt show any healing spells so it never depleted.

Your statement might be true if you drained your Essence entirely through heals, and then need to build it back up during combat.

Think of Essence like Mana, but during combat it only regens with his Essence gaining abilities and outside of combat it regens on its own.

[shotgunbadger]

*eats popcorn*

I have no idea which one it is, personally I hope it starts at full so a Disciple just arriving at a fight can toss some heals to people who NEED them without wasting time though.

[Dastion]

Again, you are incorrect because you are too lazy to watch the videos. Look at the video:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/29631

At 1:10 before combat, at 4:35 during combat, and 6:00 during combat. The bubble to the right of the bar is always full and at 500 (it can't be AP since AP is 250). Second, None of his Essence gaining abilities did anything to the bar. and they didnt show any healing spells so it never depleted.

Your statement might be true if you drained your Essence entirely through heals, and then need to build it back up during combat.

Think of Essence like Mana, but during combat it only regens with his Essence gaining abilities and outside of combat it regens on its own.

I think you're both half right. it doesn't seem to degen while out of combat, i saw that much in the Disciple RvR video. He spends the first min or so of the game rearranging his skills and it never depletes. So it doesn't seem to degenerate in the least, which is good because that would make having to spam heal in a clutch a . "Sorry, can't heal you right away, gotta channel all my AP away or find something to hit". However, I do remember the WP having a wierd little buff icon that faded away and reduced your RF somehow... but that's likely changed a bit by now since they seem to have gone away from melee healers having AP based heals and they want them to be able to heal at the beginning of a fight if necessary and therefore be able to get their special mechanic without fighting (so the AP-> SE ability the Disciple has).

However, the mechanic also does not seem to fill up on it's own..which would be silly. The warrior priest walking around town is building up Righteous Fury? The Disciple is stealing soul essence while using the mail box? One thing I noticed though, was that in RvR at least, the mechanic does seem to start out full, and i wouldn't be surprised if it started out full when you logged in. They likely figure that since you can just channel AP into your mechanic anyhow, they might as well save you some trouble and let it start full so you can get back into combat quicker.

I wonder if that means that if you are rezzed in combat you will have full SE? Hrm...

[Ayetalam]

I think you're both half right. it doesn't seem to degen while out of combat, i saw that much in the Disciple RvR video. He spents the first min or so of the game rearranging his skills and it never depletes. So it doesn't seem to degenerate in the last, which is good because that would make having to spam heal in a clutch a . "Sorry, can't heal you right away, gotta channel all my AP away or find something to hit". However, I do remember the WP having a wierd little buff icon that faded away and reduced your RF somehow... but that's likely changed a bit by now since they seem to have gone away from melee healers having AP based heals and they want them to be able to heal at the beginning of a fight if necessary and therefore be able to get their special mechanic without fighting (so the AP-> SE ability the Disciple has).

However, the mechanic also does not seem to fill up on it's own..which would be silly. The warrior priest walking around town is building up Righteous Fury? The Disciple is stealing soul essence while using the mail box? One thing I noticed though, was that in RvR at least, the mechanic does seem to start out full, and i wouldn't be surprised if it started out full when you logged in. They likely figure that since you can just channel AP into your mechanic anyhow, they might as well save you some trouble and let it start full so you can get back into combat quicker.

I wonder if that means that if you are rezzed in combat you will have full SE? Hrm...

Yes, but wouldn't it not regenerating when you are out of combat make it so that the next time you enter combat you have 0 Essence. So if its the way you say it, it means you only start out with a full Essence bar if you use that AP -> Es ability which costs you ap for a bit, or you constantly stay at 0. Which I don't see a point to. If someone can just AP -> ES out of combat, why no just let it regen out of combat?

Im still sticking to: It starts full, regens out of combat, doesnt regen in combat unless you use Es gaining abilities.

[Xoulz]

Wrong. You start out with 0 essence, and gain essence by meleeing (or using certain skills that turn AP into EP), and it delpetes at a moderate rate out of combat - think about 15-20 seconds of no combat to go from a full stash to 0 EP.
All Disciple heals are Essence-based. None of them require AP.
Not a chance in hell. It will take, at most, 30 seconds for the full bar to deplete.



:rolleyes:
My friend, balancing and combat mechanics are nothing new to me, I have participated in over 20 (closed) betas. While I am not currently in Warhammer Online beta, it is not hard to figure out what MMO influenced their combat mechanics and certain classes. Vanguard (Sigil, now SOE) is very similar to how Warhammer combat mechanics will work. Coincidentally, the Disciple of Kaine is surprising like the Disciple in Vanguard. If, not an exact replica of that class.

Now, certain mechanics and pools of energy might have changed, but their play style and combat role are identical. So, Warhammer uses Soul Reaping (or the Warrior Priest's righteous fury) and in Vanguard they use "essence of Jin". The class works well in Vanguard and that is not surprising, since there is just a few ways to make such a class work as a cohesive part of battles as a healing role. These types of martial healers are a difficult class to play well. There is a lot of logistics involved in managing the two mana bars. For those who figure it out, a DoK will be a rewarding class.


Secondly, as someone has already mentioned, your facts are wrong. The Disciple of Khaine can heal out of combat without the use of "essence", but they cannot have sustained heals. Their power comes from being in combat and having unlimited "essence" from melee. Essence based heals are instant casting and more subtle and encompassing. Though, if the Disciple needs, he can stop fighting or run within range of a tank needing a big heal and use a slower casting mana-based heal and heal them... arguably, even though that may be the DoK's biggest single-point heal, it will still not be as big or efficient other Healers.

For instance; You will be able to be lolly-gaging around, finishing up some quests and fall off a small ledge and take 75% dmg, then heal yourself or even your party. But then... your mana is out! Coincidentally, if you were in battle and had "essence", you'd probably be able to heal your whole party with three quick groups heals... (on the the move), obviously depleting your essence bar considerably. But... easily remedied because you can build up essence quickly by being in combat. "Essence" will be a small mana pool that is constantly going up and down, it will not be as capacious as your mana pool.

It's all about maintaining a balance and choosing the right heal for the job. Read the Warrior Priest, they are the same way.... always about choices!





-Xoulz

[Slice]

Yes, but wouldn't it not regenerating when you are out of combat make it so that the next time you enter combat you have 0 Essence. So if its the way you say it, it means you only start out with a full Essence bar if you use that AP -> Es ability which costs you ap for a bit, or you constantly stay at 0. Which I don't see a point to. If someone can just AP -> ES out of combat, why no just let it regen out of combat?

Im still sticking to: It starts full, regens out of combat, doesnt regen in combat unless you use Es gaining abilities.
That's the point behind the whole Disciple mechanic. You have to 'sacrifice' souls in Khaine's name in order to gain his dark gifts (HEALING).

Using wicked ritual blades, a Disciple harvests the essence of their enemy and offers it to Khaine in exchange for fell blessings and dark powers.

You don't just get healing for doing squat all.

And that AP>ES ability drains all your AP in 5 seconds. It's not the same as passively regenerating out of combat. If you use Blood Offering just before combat, you will have 0 AP for your buffs, debuffs, and damage skills (all melee skills, at least, require AP and build SE). If you'd regenerate ES out of combat, you'd start each fight with a full SE bar and a full AP bar - and where is the point in melee attack skills (like Flay, Cleave Soul) building Soul Essence?

Stick to what you will mate, but I'll bet my left kidney that it doesn't work like that. You start out with 0, build it up via melee attacks/skills, and it depletes when out of combat.

Xoulz, you may want to read the threads on this forum and watch the videos, to get your facts straight.

[abr4]

This thread is funny.

[Xoulz]

That's the point behind the whole Disciple mechanic. You have to 'sacrifice' souls in Khaine's name in order to gain his dark gifts (HEALING).



You don't just get healing for doing squat all.

And that AP>ES ability drains all your AP in 5 seconds. It's not the same as passively regenerating out of combat. If you use Blood Offering just before combat, you will have 0 AP for your buffs, debuffs, and damage skills (all melee skills, at least, require AP and build SE). If you'd regenerate ES out of combat, you'd start each fight with a full SE bar and a full AP bar - and where is the point in melee attack skills (like Flay, Cleave Soul) building Soul Essence?

Stick to what you will mate, but I'll bet my left kidney that it doesn't work like that. You start out with 0, build it up via melee attacks/skills, and it depletes when out of combat.

Xoulz, you may want to read the threads on this forum and watch the videos, to get your facts straight.



:rolleyes:
Yes, and...?

How many bars or pools of energy does the Disciple have..?

Hipoints
Action points
Essence
moral


In Warhammer you just don't auto attack, you also have special moves and chains that require Action points (ie endurance or mana). Those special moves/attacks are what gives you essence. If you successfully hit on a "Blade Reaper Strike", then you get 5 Essence points. A few more of them and you have 20 essence, and then you can cast your AoE heal for 20 essence. Thus as you fight you build essence, as you heal you use essence, thus if you keep successfully attacking, and maintain your TWO bars, you can be effective.

If you rely too much on essence only heals and then find yourself with aggro and cannot fire-off your mana based (ie action points) heals, because of their casting time and your getting interrupted, then you didn't manage your healing potential all that well.

Again, I don't think we differ on how using special attacks that consumes Action Points (AP), results in adding to our limited essence pool. So where are you confused and why do I need to watch more video and read more..?




-Xoulz

[Slice]

This thread is funny.
How.. constructive.

Again, I don't think we differ on how using special attacks that consumes Action Points (AP), results in adding to our limited essence pool. So where are you confused and why do I need to watch more video and read more..?

-Xoulz
Because you've got your facts wrong. Read below why.

Secondly, as someone has already mentioned, your facts are wrong. The Disciple of Khaine can heal out of combat without the use of "essence", but they cannot have sustained heals.

[...]

Though, if the Disciple needs, he can stop fighting or run within range of a tank needing a big heal and use a slower casting mana-based heal and heal them... arguably, even though that may be the DoK's biggest single-point heal, it will still not be as big or efficient other Healers.
Prove it. I've yet to see the tooltip of any Disciple heal that costs Action Points or has a cast time longer than 3 seconds. You can download VLC Media Player (it's freeware), open the Paris RvR Disciple vid with it, and take snapshots.

And from what I've seen, the vast majority of Disciple heals are 0.5-1.5 sec casts. There are, of course, instant cast heals of each kind, but the cost-efficient heals all have a cast time - it's just the way MMOs work.

Just a friendly hint: I wouldn't use the roll eyes emoticon at the start of every post. It makes you come off as condescending and elitist.

[Syrak]

In every single video especially the Paris video you can see that the DoK starts off with a full pool of essence. As he casts heals it goes down.

[Xoulz]

How.. constructive.

Because you've got your facts wrong. Read below why.

Prove it. I've yet to see the tooltip of any Disciple heal that costs Action Points or has a cast time longer than 3 seconds. You can download VLC Media Player (it's freeware), open the Paris RvR Disciple vid with it, and take snapshots.

And from what I've seen, the vast majority of Disciple heals are 0.5-1.5 sec casts. There are, of course, instant cast heals of each kind, but the cost-efficient heals all have a cast time - it's just the way MMOs work.

Just a friendly hint: I wouldn't use the roll eyes emoticon at the start of every post. It makes you come off as condescending and elitist.



:shock:
Just a cursory hint: Please don't call people condescending and an elitist, it makes you seem fragile and lacking couping skills.

Secondly, if what you suggest is true, then Disciples cannot heal until they enter combat. Which is rather against the core ideology of being a HEALER. Disciples are situational healers and gain most of their prowess in combat. That is not to say, that out of combat they cannot heal. Which you claim as FACT.

If you don't deem that as fact, then my rebuttal and argument is correct and your whole post history and perception is flawed. Which is it?

Disciples will get to use heals from 3 different pools; Action points, Essence and Moral. Action points is like your typical mana/endurance bar that will rapidly replenish when out of combat or sitting (ie eating, popping a tent, campfire, resting, etc). Essence has to be built up as your in combat. Moral is universal by applied differently, it is not personally controlled... that becomes a game unto itself with stealing, raising, planting flags, group abilities, etc.

Do you actually see a problem with any of this? I'm pretty sure all of this is universally understood!




-Xoulz

[Syrak]

:shock:
Just a cursory hint: Please don't call people condescending and an elitist, it makes you seem fragile and lacking couping skills.

Secondly, if what you suggest is true, then Disciples cannot heal until they enter combat. Which is rather against the core ideology of being a HEALER. Disciples are situational healers and gain most of their prowess in combat. That is not to say, that out of combat they cannot heal. Which you claim as FACT.

If you don't deem that as fact, then my rebuttal and argument is correct and your whole post history and perception is flawed. Which is it?

Disciples will get to use heals from 3 different pools; Action points, Essence and Moral. Action points is like your typical mana/endurance bar that will rapidly replenish when out of combat or sitting (ie eating, popping a tent, campfire, resting, etc). Essence has to be built up as your in combat. Moral is universal by applied differently, it is not personally controlled... that becomes a game unto itself with stealing, raising, planting flags, group abilities, etc.

Do you actually see a problem with any of this? I'm pretty sure all of this is universally understood!




-Xoulz

Please link a video where the Disciple uses AP to heal. All the videos I have seen clearly show that only Essence is used.

[Slice]

Syrak, you may want to watch the Paris RvR vid again. At 08:02 you can actually see the bubble filling up a little, then depleting a little. At 08:58 he rezzes, and the bubble's background is, again, purple. Then, due to one of the 3 buffs he has on, I would assume, it starts filling up again. When he uses a heal at 10:05, you can clearly see he uses up EP.

I seriously doubt they always have a full bar out of combat, because that means that they could, in theory, just hang way back and keep healing ranged classes, while not getting involved in the actual battle. And what would the point of EP gain through melee skills be, then? Or the point of Blood Offering?

Just a cursory hint: Please don't call people condescending and an elitist, it makes you seem fragile and lacking couping skills.
Heh. I didn't say you're condescending, I said it makes you seem condescending.

Secondly, if what you suggest is true, then Disciples cannot heal until they enter combat. Which is rather against the core ideology of being a HEALER. Disciples are situational healers and gain most of their prowess in combat. That is not to say, that out of combat they cannot heal. Which you claim as FACT.
That is how the class works. They're not healers, they're support classes, and they can heal out of combat, by using Blood Offering. I never said they can't. I just said that they need SE to heal, and can get it via meleeing or using skills (melee attack skills and Blood Offering).

If you don't deem that as fact, then my rebuttal and argument is correct and your whole post history and perception is flawed. Which is it?
Actually, it doesn't make anything you said correct, because you misinterpreted what I said.

Disciples will get to use heals from 3 different pools; Action points, Essence and Moral. Action points is like your typical mana/endurance bar that will rapidly replenish when out of combat or sitting (ie eating, popping a tent, campfire, resting, etc). Essence has to be built up as your in combat. Moral is universal by applied differently, it is not personally controlled... that becomes a game unto itself with stealing, raising, planting flags, group abilities, etc.
This is the third time you've made this statement, yet I still see no proof.

Do you actually see a problem with any of this? I'm pretty sure all of this is universally understood!

-Xoulz
I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

[Syrak]

Syrak, you may want to watch the Paris RvR vid again. At 08:02 you can actually see the bubble filling up a little, then depleting a little. At 08:58 he rezzes, and the bubble's background is, again, purple. Then, due to one of the 3 buffs he has on, I would assume, it starts filling up again. When he uses a heal at 10:05, you can clearly see he uses up EP.

I seriously doubt they always have a full bar out of combat, because that means that they could, in theory, just hang way back and keep healing ranged classes, while not getting involved in the actual battle. And what would the point of EP gain through melee skills be, then? Or the point of Blood Offering?


You are incorrectly assuming you are out of combat if you are healing people who are fighting or even being near fighting. You can in theory stand in the back and heal using Blood Offering to refill your essence pool though.

Using WoW as an example. If you heal anyone in combat you are also placed into combat. It is this way in most games. Maybe Mythic will do something different I dont know, time will tell.

[Slice]

You are incorrectly assuming you are out of combat if you are healing people who are fighting or even being near fighting. You can in theory stand in the back and heal using Blood Offering to refill your essence pool though.
Of course. It could go either way. And you only have to wait 25 seconds for your AP pool to refill before being able to use BO to it's maximum effect again (it works if you have at least [Initial BO cost]+[AP>SE/tick cost]).

PS: Aren't we all assuming? Unless either of you is in the beta and wants to get banned here and lose his beta slot, everything we do on these forums is pure conjecture because anything can change between now and release.

[Syrak]

Of course. It could go either way. And you only have to wait 25 seconds for your AP pool to refill before being able to use BO to it's maximum effect again (it works if you have at least [Initial BO cost]+[AP>SE/tick cost]).

PS: Aren't we all assuming? Unless either of you is in the beta and wants to get banned here and lose his beta slot, everything we do on these forums is pure conjecture because anything can change between now and release.

I am in the beta, but I am talking about what you can see in videos. I will not go into how it currently works.

[Ayetalam]

Of course. It could go either way. And you only have to wait 25 seconds for your AP pool to refill before being able to use BO to it's maximum effect again (it works if you have at least [Initial BO cost]+[AP>SE/tick cost]).

PS: Aren't we all assuming? Unless either of you is in the beta and wants to get banned here and lose his beta slot, everything we do on these forums is pure conjecture because anything can change between now and release.

I am aswell in beta, but I use Videos and Interviews as my proof of what I say and will also not get into what its current state is. Im basing everything I am saying off of what you can see in videos.

In the videos, he starts off with a full bar every fight. It goes down while in combat and does not go up until out of combat or you use abilities that regenerate it, such as Flay and Cleave Soul. Blood Offering might be used but DoK is not a healbot and non of his abilities allow for it.

He can't stay back because I assume that if you heal someone that is in combat, you stay in combat until that person leaves combat, then you do. This is based of the many many mmos that work like this.

[Slice]

I am aswell in beta, but I use Videos and Interviews as my proof of what I say and will also not get into what its current state is. Im basing everything I am saying off of what you can see in videos.

In the videos, he starts off with a full bar every fight. It goes down while in combat and does not go up until out of combat or you use abilities that regenerate it, such as Flay and Cleave Soul. Blood Offering might be used but DoK is not a healbot and non of his abilities allow for it.

He can't stay back because I assume that if you heal someone that is in combat, you stay in combat until that person leaves combat, then you do. This is based of the many many mmos that work like this.
And how long would you be in combat for? 5 seconds? If it truly is filling up out of combat, it takes no more than 5 seconds. So you have to not heal, and not get hit, for 10 whole seconds to get a full bar - not to mention that every 2 cycles (1 cycle being 10 secs of waiting, 5 secs of spam-healing) you can use BO for 300/500 EP.

Would telling me if BO costs 60 or 50 AP and drains 50 or 60 AP/second be a huge NDA breach? It's been nagging me since I figured out what the description says >.<

[abr4]

How.. constructive.

Yeah I know, but NDA says I can't be any more constructice.

Still funny thread though.

[Dastion]

Of course. It could go either way. And you only have to wait 25 seconds for your AP pool to refill before being able to use BO to it's maximum effect again (it works if you have at least [Initial BO cost]+[AP>SE/tick cost]).

PS: Aren't we all assuming? Unless either of you is in the beta and wants to get banned here and lose his beta slot, everything we do on these forums is pure conjecture because anything can change between now and release.

Slice, I think you're correct about many things. However, you definitely make some large rather biased assumptions in order to back your point. Use what you know you're right about, but avoid making assumptions that make you look like you don't know what you are talking about because it causes people to ignore the bits where you were right. By watching other videos it's easy to see what an entire AP bar fills up within about 10 seconds. Watching the Paris Archmage video his AP is staying at near full, if anything it regenerates TOO fast. I'm not sure if it regenerates while casting or if there is some sort of "5 second rule" like there is in WoW, but there doesn't seem to be.

I'm not going to quote or directly talk the post talking about the disciple's in and out of combat tendencies because I have a feeling it might get deleted and I'd rather save the mods the trouble of modifying my own post. Even though most of us could have deduced what he said by watching the video and making certain assumptions I am sure he's not allowed to confirm those assumptions even in the vague way he did. Though I do appreciate his goodnatured efforts, I'd much rather he didn't risk his position in beta as I'm sure Garthlik has no qualms about releasing information to Mythic to help them combat leakers.

Yeah I know, but NDA says I can't be any more constructice.

Still funny thread though.

I appreciate you holding the NDA, I really do... but it also does not require you to troll posts like that. Not everyone is in beta and they still crave the knowledge you apparently have and do not fully appreciate. Otherwise, you wouldn't make "constructive" comments like that to the guesswork of the community.

[Slice]

[edited]

PS: Dastion, check your PMs.

[Syrak]

NDA says you can't tell anyone you're in the beta, and thus under the NDA. Congratulations on your NDA breach.

Dastion, check your PMs.

Not true. You are thinking of the AoC beta. The WAR beta allows you to say you are in the beta, just not anything beyond that.

[Slice]

Not true. You are thinking of the AoC beta. The WAR beta allows you to say you are in the beta, just not anything beyond that.
Ah, my bad. I'll just edit my post, and report his, then.

[Browncoat-WHA]

On a general note, when you're a beta tester under an NDA, this comes with the territory. There are many threads, arguments, and thoughts that people have about the game that can be settled because if you are in the beta you know more than the average person that is looking to play the game. There's no real value to what are essentially "haha I'm in beta and I know the answer" type posts that you see every so often on forums that respect the NDA because they don't really contribute anything.

In these cases, it's better to leave the speculation to the people making it, even if it could be erroneous. It's not their fault they aren't in beta, and it's simply poor form to hold it over the head of others.