Shadow Warriors, Scouting and Stealth

[Badar_Perc]

Ok before you freak out on go on a gigantic tangent (or quick one liner) on why Stealth shouldn't be a feature hear me out!

I agree that Stealth in 90% of its fashion is way to difficult to balance, can cause huuuuge amounts of griefing and is considered 'cowardly' ( :roll: ). I never did the Stealth game in WoW, because I only played the game for 3 days, however I did do the stealth game in DAoC. Before ToA I had an RR8 Infiltrator and one of my old favorites that I could do to help my realm was scouting (you can ignore my DF ganking ;) )! I mention 'before ToA' because after that it is in general agreement that it was the beginning of the slide for DAoC (at least for the community/realm pride), and shortly after that New Frontiers. Those were the days that if a stealther really wanted to help his/her realm they really could! They could climb into keeps (sorry Archers :p ), report movements, and just generally make their fairly solo non-realm helping class feel, well, helpful.

Soooo.... my suggestion based off of this... "Scouting maneuvers focus on moving into territory ahead of the vanguard and striking out at critical locations from long range"

How do you think this is going to be work (specifically the 'moving into territory ahead of the vanguard')?

Since Mythic seems in the mood to give stealth to fairly unsuitable classes (See mouth frothing quasi-berserker Witch Elf), why not to us in the Scouting line?

Ok, hang in there sport I'm getting to the mechanics of it...

Stealth can be active for as long as the user desires, however it does have its limitations and drawbacks.

1) You cannot 'stealth' in open areas (i.e valleys, plains, middle of large roads), instead you have to be near consistant world objects (trees, walls, large boulders, etc).

2) While in stealthed movement you can only have a certain gap between world objects before you are automatically knocked out of stealth (make it Scouting spec dependent, say 10 feet for lower Scouting spec and slightly ramping up the higher the spec to allow slightly more range). For example if my Shadow Warrior was moving stealthed through the woods and going from tree to tree he would be fine. However if I wanted to cross that gigantic valley I would pop out of stealth.

3) Restricted movement speed dependent on Scouting spec. Lower levels may only allow you to move stealthed at 1/3 your speed. Higher versions of Scouting will allow more movement, but never more than 3/4th your 'unstealthed' movement.

4) Timers! Allow restealthing as much as desired if the Shadow Warrior has been out of combat. However if the Shadow Warrior enters combat (or is forced into) they cannot stealth for 10 minutes. To prevent the usage of stealth as a means of attaining combat suprise enforce a timer that makes attacking impossible (i.e 2 minute weapon disarm) or a significant drop in DPS (2 minutes again). I am slightly more in favor of the option of reduced DPS because it allows one to escape (knockbacks, Assault Snares, etc) if found, but make fighting extremely difficult.

So what opinion do you folks have? Even if you dislike this idea, what are your thoughts on how we can accomplish our Scouting role?

PS: And seriously please no "omg st3alth r st00pid11' Lets try to make this a constructive thread. :)

[Koojo]

I really like the "stealth in the woods, but no open valley" example. It's a neat idea, but I'm not sure it will have much use. I'm not really in favor of stealth in the game at all, though.

I disagree that Witch Elves don't fit the stealth mold, because I could also care less if lore is broken.

[Zombies_R_Us]

i think that you have a really great idea

[Badar_Perc]

I really like the "stealth in the woods, but no open valley" example. It's a neat idea, but I'm not sure it will have much use. I'm not really in favor of stealth in the game at all, though.

I disagree that Witch Elves don't fit the stealth mold, because I could also care less if lore is broken.

The use doesn't need to always be amazingly effective. It sometimes just needs to be enough to get a good enough idea of the strength of an enemy force without just bringing your forces to the area.

Things like....

"Looks to be about 20 or so Dark Elves, they look like they are all buffing up and starting to follow the leader, so if we want to attack we better do it soon!"

"Holy crap 80 Greenskins running your way, get back into the keep!"

"Group of 12, mostly casters facing south, so MDPS get ready to charge from the north!"

Anyone can do damage, but not everyone can give good intel.

[Asherin]

Scouting has been described as long ranged, long induction skills; so rather than stealth I have a different idea to give the feel that your scouting. I like camo-stealth, but they are walking a thin line already to making the SW overpowered so they would have to gimp something else if they brought it in. WH and WE are being tested for it because they needed a gimmick that made them stand out, I think.

A skill that calls upon the keen eyes of the Elves to see across the battlefield is what I imagine. Not one like the WoW hunter where you select a spot and can only look there, but an out of body one where you can survey the field without actually being there..like an invisible camera moving around or something along those lines.
Now while your doing this, would be rooted and vulnerable..so perhaps if they are put into stealth while the skill was active..that would work.

[Badar_Perc]

Scouting has been described as long ranged, long induction skills; so rather than stealth I have a different idea to give the feel that your scouting. I like camo-stealth, but they are walking a thin line already to making the SW overpowered so they would have to gimp something else if they brought it in. WH and WE are being tested for it because they needed a gimmick that made them stand out, I think.

A skill that calls upon the keen eyes of the Elves to see across the battlefield is what I imagine. Not one like the WoW hunter where you select a spot and can only look there, but an out of body one where you can survey the field without actually being there..like an invisible camera moving around or something along those lines.
Now while your doing this, would be rooted and vulnerable..so perhaps if they are put into stealth while the skill was active..that would work.

You are correct that Scouting is the primary means of ranged damage while stationary (opposed to Skirmish), however it is also discribed as I have above (Scouting maneuvers focus on moving into territory ahead of the vanguard and striking out at critical locations from long range) from here:

http://www.warhammeronline.com/armiesofWAR/highelves/ShadowWarrior.php

As for your invisible camera idea the biggest flaw that I could see is range and safety. If you are in a positively safe location (keep, your side of the RvR fence, massive zerg of allies) then the risk of running your stealthed behind into enemy lines isn't present, thus the risk is reduced. However timers/ranged tethers could be placed to prevent safety exploitation.

As for my example making Shadow Warriors overpowered (or more so), why do you think so? It actually would more or less remove them from combat, or in the least restrict their damage for a limited amount of time.

Thanks for your feedback Asherin! :)

[liggu]

I think that it is a Very ggod idea that you have, I just replied to another thread, suggesting that stealth should only be in the game as a sort of " cloaking" ability, long cooldown, short ( 10-15 seconds ) duration, and used for setting up ambushes, or scouting ahead, or for escaping.

So, if SW get it , for ranged ambushes, and scouting etc, it should ONLY be usable as a scouting talent, while in scout stance.And only while near trees, bushes etc.

I was sometimes playing Wow, standing in stealth right infront of an enemy, in the middle of a barren waste land , devoid of any terrain AT ALL, and wondering " how the heck can't he see me?!?", it was weird....

[Hrafn]

I was sometimes playing Wow, standing in stealth right infront of an enemy, in the middle of a barren waste land , devoid of any terrain AT ALL, and wondering " how the heck can't he see me?!?", it was weird....

I used to think that as well. Stealth in open ground is just stupid.

However a camouflage ability using the enviroment around you is a cool idea. I would limit it to being stationery with a 5-10 sec cooldown (similar to Shadowmeld) and where all combat actions are unusable. Ie. A person has to literally come out of stealth to enter combat. (Hopefully getting rid of the old NElf hunter shadowmeld shoot situation). Also have a minimum range where anyone closer thn say 3 yards can see you.

That would still allow you to scout and ambush without it being overpowered.

[Findecáno]

I approve of this idea.

[Badar_Perc]

I used to think that as well. Stealth in open ground is just stupid.

However a camouflage ability using the enviroment around you is a cool idea. I would limit it to being stationery with a 5-10 sec cooldown (similar to Shadowmeld) and where all combat actions are unusable. Ie. A person has to literally come out of stealth to enter combat. (Hopefully getting rid of the old NElf hunter shadowmeld shoot situation). Also have a minimum range where anyone closer thn say 3 yards can see you.

That would still allow you to scout and ambush without it being overpowered.


Specifically the 5-10 cooldown meaning that you cannot have moved for 5-10 seconds? Or after you have used the skill you cannot use it again for 5-10 seconds? I never did WoW for long so my Shadowmeld knowledge is, well, nothing. ;)

I am still kind of iffy on stealth and combat though. For me beggers can't be choosers, I'd rather just beg to get stealth to scout than not have it at all. :p

[Hrafn]

Specifically the 5-10 cooldown meaning that you cannot have moved for 5-10 seconds? Or after you have used the skill you cannot use it again for 5-10 seconds? I never did WoW for long so my Shadowmeld knowledge is, well, nothing. ;)


5-10 sec cooldown on re-stealthing.

[Badar_Perc]

5-10 sec cooldown on re-stealthing.

That is pretty much what was used in DAoC (10 seconds). I feel it would make us (or whomever has it) too strong. Even though you would have to be rooted in place it allows too muh combat utility. Mythic has a very fickle history with their stealthers, and it is also something extremely difficult to balance.

I think the only way I would want stealth to be in WAR is only if it were a scouting tool instead of an *iimediate* combat tool.

[Noli me Tangere]

Everyone wants stealth lately..

Big change from the no stealth at all, ever, game.

Your idea sounds great. For another game. For this game it sounds incredibly bad. Stealth of any kind, in this game, sound incredibly bad. On any career, mind you, not just this one and not just "that one."

If this class really is meant to be a Marauder mirror, as some speculate, you can only imagine what this class having stealth would lead to.

[Badar_Perc]

Everyone wants stealth lately..

Big change from the no stealth at all, ever, game.

Your idea sounds great. For another game. For this game it sounds incredibly bad. Stealth of any kind, in this game, sound incredibly bad. On any career, mind you, not just this one and not just "that one."

If this class really is meant to be a Marauder mirror, as some speculate, you can only imagine what this class having stealth would lead to.



Can you explain why stealth being specifically used for scouting purpose would be a bad move? I have heard the rumor of SWs and Marauders mirroring each other due to stances/mutations, but what does that have to do with doing recon? Not sniping someone and vanishing into the night, or ganking with 12 other stealthed friends, but simply avoiding combat to gather information to add more strategy to the game.

They could never put stealth in and I wouldn't think twice about it. I am just very, very curious how this ""Scouting maneuvers focus on moving into territory ahead of the vanguard and striking out at critical locations from long range"" is giong to work.

[Noli me Tangere]

Can you explain why stealth being specifically used for scouting purpose would be a bad move? I have heard the rumor of SWs and Marauders mirroring each other due to stances/mutations, but what does that have to do with doing recon? Not sniping someone and vanishing into the night, or ganking with 12 other stealthed friends, but simply avoiding combat to gather information to add more strategy to the game.

They could never put stealth in and I wouldn't think twice about it. I am just very, very curious how this ""Scouting maneuvers focus on moving into territory ahead of the vanguard and striking out at critical locations from long range"" is giong to work.

What we've been told of this side of the Shadow Warrior is that they'll have a long ranged damage spec, and on the run short range-but still ranged damage spec, and the melee mastery. That sounds just fine. I don't see stealth being added into any of the three is required in any way, and can only serve to hurt/unbalance the class and game in general.

I'm sorry, but I believe I've already explained myself to the fullest needed on issues of stealth in WAR, in general, regardless of class. The idea that it would be used as a completely non-combat ability seems naive, in addition.

To put it plainly: Any sort of stealth, for any class, no matter what, is just a very bad idea for WAR, in my opinion. I'm not trying to convince anyone, nor you, of that. But you posted an idea, and this is my opinion of that idea. Take it as you will.

[Velryn]

You know, I really like this idea. This could make Shadow Warriors really useful, and I like it. Only problem I see is that scouting is supposed to be long range and to give the stealth to get close up would be kind of weird. Then again it could make for amazing ambushes of scouts hiding in the trees along the path waiting for enemies to get in range and pouncing. Very Shadow Warrior like. Also it would be great for the sole purpose of making the SW a more useful and in demand class.

[Xander_119]

good idea all in all, but for people that think that this will "destroy" the game, how about this:

instead of this good idea of just using terain to hide in shadows, how about it removes your name from above your head so you can literaly hide behind terain with out people finding you as easily.

[Badar_Perc]

You know, I really like this idea. This could make Shadow Warriors really useful, and I like it. Only problem I see is that scouting is supposed to be long range and to give the stealth to get close up would be kind of weird. Then again it could make for amazing ambushes of scouts hiding in the trees along the path waiting for enemies to get in range and pouncing. Very Shadow Warrior like. Also it would be great for the sole purpose of making the SW a more useful and in demand class.

This is more of a means for a Shadow Warrior to strictly scout, as opposed to gain combat initiative. I agree with most people with the addition of stealth (For attacking/escaping) is not suitable for this type of game. However, using it with forced timers that restricts you from combat; I agree with.

[Badar_Perc]

good idea all in all, but for people that think that this will "destroy" the game, how about this:

instead of this good idea of just using terain to hide in shadows, how about it removes your name from above your head so you can literaly hide behind terain with out people finding you as easily.


I initially considered that as an idea, however features such as 'Nearest Target' keys overrides that. Also mad clicking at possibly hiding locations would override not having a character tag as a benefit.

[Xander_119]

I initially considered that as an idea, however features such as 'Nearest Target' keys overrides that. Also mad clicking at possibly hiding locations would override not having a character tag as a benefit.

first of all we are talking about doing this from a distance as a way to not make them OP at sneeking up on people, so the closest target key would be invalid if you were doing it correctly, also if you use terain people would not be able to click through it, also how about they introduce a "lay down skill" so that the mad clickers have little to no chance of hitting the SW.

so it would be something like this, "Scout" makes your name become invisible and makes you lay down on the ground to gain tatical advantages for your team on the battlefield, can only be used in cover.

[FallenPhoenix6]

bump. mythic make this happen!

[Erbse]

I'm wondering what this would actually do to help us in our to be pitied state, as it overall seems nothing more than a gimmick, other than useful in any way possible.

[Arthuriel]

i want ghetto stealth, i don't care about real stealth

for those who don't know, ghetto stealth= shadow warrior crouches, player name disappears, shadow warrior moves at 1/2 speed

not much use in the open, but you could easily hide in bushes, behind rocks, or along keep walls without being seen


and, for the record, NPC SWs get real stealth, and are the only NPC that has it I'm pretty sure

[Hibranger]

I love your idea. Ironically though can you imagine a "shadow of a warrior" popping out of stealth just to drop - dot damage on you and spiral arrows? lol OH noooes! hehe

The Shadow of a Warrior needs a dps mechanic that counts. Heck, I'd dare argue (call me crazy) that sorcs and BWs need less focus on good dot compilations and a return to good old Dark Age of Camelot direct damage (DD) mechanics.

I will along with my friends always be amazed that whoever built class abilities in Warhammer never played Dark Age of Camelot - the very "supposed" inspiration behind this game's game play (the lore being much older and apart of the original entity but like Age of Conan lore matters little here apparently).

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In regards to the stealth yes or no - I VOTE YES BECAUSE IF IT HASN'T HURT 13 MILLION SUBSCRIBERS FOR ANOTHER MMORPG WE ALL KNOW THE NAME as well as a few others OF THEN IT MUST NOT BE A BAD IDEA!!!

Gods, I feel better.

IF however, Mythic employees (not including interns because I have hope they will save the game...) continue to pause about the coffee machine instead of fixing these issues their very paychecks depend on then at least look up one minute from the java (no programmer jokes intended) and consider duel weild/shield/different weapon and medium armor mechanics for the class.

For the love of the gods - and just us folks who sign in here over the OTHER games - can't we just have fun?

[IronFirewind]

I do like how stealth was handled on Aion. Basically stealth for Rangers and Assassins had the following restrictions:



When you stealth you have a 40% movement speed penalty slapped on you (You're creeping quietly so nobody can hear you remember).
You cannot stealth in combat or when a DoT is on you (Not sure about HoTs).
Taking any sort of damage drops your stealth (Not sure about healing).
Using ANY ability will instantly drop your stealth (Traps are the only exception).
There is a 10 second cooldown on stealth (Even if you drop it early or are knocked out of it).
You can only use stealth to escape if you are classed as out of combat (Read: Nobody hitting you and a good distance is between you and the attackers.)
Any AoE attack being used near you will knock you out of stealth regardless if if it actually hit you are not.

Basically stealth in that game was powerful when used right and useful for scouting and ambushing but it was balanced and hard to abuse. I think a stealth system like this would work really well for both SW and SH (Gobbies are cowards remember so they will want to be able to hide).

The snare thing is pretty good too IMO. I never understood why a WE or WH could make themselves invisible yet still be able to sprint at full speed towards their target. What you could do is remove the snare effect if a stealthing class is "detected" by someone to represent the stealthy character either fleeing to escape and evade or quickly rushing forwards to silence the person who detected them.

Blocking out stealthing during combat will also stop stealth classes from suddenly vanishing before they die. I've lost count of the number of times my SW or SM has been chasing down a fleeing WE only for them to stealth up then appear at my back even if they were directly in my sights.

[MrLonghair]

I've lost count of the number of times my SW or SM has been chasing down a fleeing WE only for them to stealth up then appear at my back even if they were directly in my sights.

I started playing a WE for that reason a few months back, and to my surprise I found that they did not have a shadowstep ability in this game.

(Shadowstep iirc being - teleports to behind the target's back, in melee range)

I was also surprised to find they did not have a Vanish ability either, but that doesn't stop countless WE and WH from doing that in combat with DoTs. Maybe it's clever pot tactic ability morale usage? Then why have I seen this in every tier..

The lore has those two doing stealthy things. The lore also has the SW running in the frontlines, and being beat by a majority of ranged classes at what it's meant to excel at.

[IronFirewind]

What I meant was that the WE/WH didn't teleport, they just stealthed up and ran behind my back even though I was already beating on them and had some DoTs on them, that is the frustrating thing especially for my SM.

When I'm on my SW I'm usually hanging around between the melees and healers so someone can see a WE or Squig on me and toss out some heals or smack the WE/Squig about. If it's a WE popping on me and I get heals I still usually die but I can usually disarm the WE and take her down with me then get a rez seconds after hitting the ground. Anyway what I'm trying to say is that the "stealth during combat" bug isn't that frustrating on my SW since I tend to run with guild premades when doing SCs anyway.

On SM though...I don't know why but my SM seems to be a magnet for Witch Elves, more so than my SW :lol: . It's quite frustrating to get a WE down to about 25% health only for her to end up stealthing mid-combat, turning around to my back and hitting me with a pile of abilities before I can do much about it. Either that or they go and gank one of my healers or BWs.

I'm not QQing about WEs or anything, I have a WE alt and do enjoy playing it. It's just the whole stealth classes being able to stealth up in combat bug is really frustrating when you are trying to tank.

[bullvi]

well i play a sw in t3 as a alt and mostly enjoy the class,the one thing i find missing in it though is the lack of a noncombat stealth, either in the scout tree or as a general skill a sw should be able to perma stealth in noncombat but have say a timer when coming out of stealth before you can attack.

when i play sw i play as scout spec and love to scout ahead and think this would make a great addition to sw to play,a lot of the ideas on this thread for sw and stealth are very good and be good to see implemented