Alternatives to Stealth?

[lougratz]

If the Witch Elves are not able to take damage similar to a marauder/choppa they will need some other skill to survive. Agreed?

I hope its not stealth. What are some viable options?

I was thinking a constant run speed increase would do the trick, maybe with each rank you run faster? I haven't heard or seen much talk about classes with increased run speed(self or group), but if no classes have this, I think it would be sufficient.

Other ideas?

[Oblivion 01]

Stealth is in, and has been seen in RvR videos being used by both the Witch Elf and the Witch Hunter.

There are several threads on stealth already, so let's not turn this into a stealth discussion.

[stumbles]

stealth is not in, its only being tested so its still up in the air whether or not it makes it to launch day

and this isnt a stealth discussion, its a discussion on alternatives to stealth

i think a good alternative would be a short duration, somewhat short cooldown, evasion/cloak of shadows ability to help them close in on their targets

[Dukha]

If the Witch Elves are not able to take damage similar to a marauder/choppa they will need some other skill to survive. Agreed?
I'd say thats a large part of the problem if thats the case. Witch Elfs need to be able to take damage similar to the other melee DPS careers since whatever else they may have going for them they are still supposed to carry out a DPS function in melee range. It doesnt really matter what mechanic they have for closing with the enemy, be it leaps, charges or even stealth, once in melee range they have to stay there just like the Marauder and Choppa. Otherwise no one will want Witch Elfs for any form of RvR. They will perform the same funtion as the other DPS careers but by being to squishy will just become a liability to their team. Why take a Witch Elf that does about the same damage as a Choppa but is a to keep up when you can get a Choppas instead? Same DPS as the Witch Elf and easier to keep up.

Besides, as Oblivion pointed out, Stealth has been discussed pretty exhaustively. That includes alternatives to it. But as I said, if a lack of survivability is the reason why witches need something special (like Stealth) then I really fear for my future class. It's a game focused on large scale RvR battles for crying out loud! Any career that needs to hide because it's so damn fragile obviously doesnt belong in a game like that.

[bayle3]

I'd say thats a large part of the problem if thats the case. Witch Elfs need to be able to take damage similar to the other melee DPS careers since whatever else they may have going for them they are still supposed to carry out a DPS function in melee range. It doesnt really matter what mechanic they have for closing with the enemy, be it leaps, charges or even stealth, once in melee range they have to stay there just like the Marauder and Choppa. Otherwise no one will want Witch Elfs for any form of RvR. They will perform the same funtion as the other DPS careers but by being to squishy will just become a liability to their team. Why take a Witch Elf that does about the same damage as a Choppa but is a to keep up when you can get a Choppas instead? Same DPS as the Witch Elf and easier to keep up.

Besides, as Oblivion pointed out, Stealth has been discussed pretty exhaustively. That includes alternatives to it. But as I said, if a lack of survivability is the reason why witches need something special (like Stealth) then I really fear for my future class. It's a game focused on large scale RvR battles for crying out loud! Any career that needs to hide because it's so damn fragile obviously doesnt belong in a game like that.

well said, and very to the point. there wouldnt have been a need for stealth in the first place, if they wouldve just fixed the class so it was on par with other mdps classes.

also that is my alternative to the situation, fix the class.

edited to reflect that i was trying to stay on topic.

[Feigro]

The problem is with the extensive focus on positional and opening attacks.

It's no secret Witch Elves (and by extension WE) were to have openers - abilities that cannot be used once engaged in combat. In addition to escape mechanics like the leap backwards (I don't know what it's called).

In short - WE are getting stealth simply because of how they're designed. In any RvR situation it's nearly impossible to close even a short amount of distance without being placed in combat. Especially once people are aware of how you function. See a Witch Elf? be sure to ping her with an arrow so she's in combat.

The flaw is with openers, not stealth. At least imo. From an aesthetic and lore perspective, the problem definitely isn't stealth - the problem is that Witch Elves are designed as rogues.

(Usual speculative/things will change/not final disclaimer)

[Dukha]

It's no secret Witch Elves (and by extension WE) were to have openers - abilities that cannot be used once engaged in combat. In addition to escape mechanics like the leap backwards (I don't know what it's called).You mean WH (Witch Hunters) right? And that leap if its still in was called Agile Escape. May have changed however.
The flaw is with openers, not stealth. At least imo. From an aesthetic and lore perspective, the problem definitely isn't stealth - the problem is that Witch Elves are designed as rogues.Interesing point :). Taking that into account as well just adds a layer onto my original reasoning though.

Not only do I now fear that in long drawn out RvR battles a Witch Elf will be nuked down because she is to squishy to be worth trying to heal but also her DPS will suffer due to not being able to use openers. After all, battles lasts a long time so their value damage wise will dropp over time while Choppas and Marauders will either remain at a steady level or climb the longer the fight lasts.

Not to mention that these rumours that both these careers will have better survivability would mean that the Witch Elf will die more often which will lower her value further. Unless of course she is designed around popping in and out of battle like a damn jojo, either using Agile Escape or simply dying so she can get out of combat, stealth back in and pop those openers.

Which by the way if they will compete with melee DPS careers that stay in combat the entire time need to be truly powerfull if that tactic will be viable. I'm talking more or less one shot one kill here.

Stealth does not sound like a solution should this be close to the reality. However neither are speedbuffs, leaps or charges.

So the question that pops into my head now is the following.

Witch Elf: A broken career unsuited for anything but single target griefing?

(Usual speculative/things will change/not final disclaimer)
Love your disclaimer by the way ;)

PS: Just FYI lore wise Stealth is a huge problem as well but that have been covered pretty well I think...

[DarksideBQ]

The flaw is with openers, not stealth. At least imo. From an aesthetic and lore perspective, the problem definitely isn't stealth - the problem is that Witch Elves are designed as rogues.

I think you may have nailed it with that one, and that also likely means that WE will execute openers directly out of stealth which is one of the main complaints people had with it in WoW and other games.

As an alternative to stealth, I would rather see some sort of leap/opener combo that can only be initiated out of combat. Perhaps the leap would allow you to jump a short distance over enemies directly between you and your target. Then the opener could either be part of the ability or there could be a 1 sec stun or something that allows you to execute your opener without being in combat. I think that any sort of run speed modification would provide too large of an advantage when pursuing enemies who are withdrawing.

As for survivability, since we know their armor is likely to be low, the WE would need parry/dodge abilities (passive or activated) and perhaps a higher magic resistance. Maybe that could be worked into the potions system where you can customize your resistance packages between fights based on what classes you think you will be fighting.

[Estebar]

I really don't have much experience with MMO's but here are my suggestions.

The Witch Elf's central mechanic is Frenzy, right? Well, working off that, from a defensive point of view, she can either become desensitised to damage or become so envigorated that her skills in dodging and avoiding damage increase as she builds Frenzy.

From an aggressive point of view, obviously her Frenzy combos are going to become more devestating over time, and her abilities to leap into combat with a strong pouncing move or dashing attack moves should get her into combat, and allow her to leave again with that Escape move we know she already has.

Why not keep her as a very mobile attacker who either increases her mobility or her attacking skills over time, or both?

[Zoatibix]

Why not keep her as a very mobile attacker who either increases her mobility or her attacking skills over time, or both?

Agreed. I hadn't thought about it much before but I'm assuming the WE has a slightly lower HP pool (and much less armour) than either the Choppa or Mutation Boy. She is going to need some form of mitigation or healers won't have a chance to keep her up

(I'm assuming here that HoTs won't be sufficient to keep her up. Maybe they will provide enough time to slap a larger, quicker heal on?)

I thought that the WE would have a commesurately higher Dodge/Magic Resistence to compensate. Some form of protection from Khaine himself.

I am intrigued by the suggestion from Estebar that their Dodge/Resist rates could actually increase the more damage they take. I've had similar kind abilities while Tanking on my Paladin in WoW. (Below a certain percentage of remaining HPs the ability kicks in and reduces further damage taken)

Now, obviously as a shield toting plate weidling Protection Specced tank I could 'hang' on that last bit of health against numerous mobs for quite some time due to this mechanic, my very high armour and a self healing mechanic.

But as a WE would (presumably) have none of those I think it could be worked to keep them going that bit longer for a healer to notice their problem and hit them with a heal.

Other alternatives. Obviously some form of charge but don't Choppas get that already? Mythic may not want to copy another mechanic. But I do like the idea of acrobatic leaping - so it could look different while being similar mechanics wise.

Harder to hit at range (not my idea, but a good suggestion I saw elsewhere). Combining with the increased resistences the WE could actually be harder and harder to hit with ranged attacks the further away she is.

[Inkdot]

I agree with most things thats being said. The Black Guard have lower physical mitigation and higher magic resistance. This could also suit the Witch Elf.

To compensate for lower hps and lower armor Mythic should slightly increase damage output or at least add utility damage skills/burst dmg capability. Add more dodge % to compensate for low armor some (but still make us easier to kill then Choppas/Maurauders/Hammerers etc). Add magic resistance! Anti magic MDPS ftw!

Please no stealth!!!

[lougratz]

Many good ideas here...I just hope stealth has not been chosen...

I think a combination of some of the above ideas would work very well...

[Lord Tareq]

Some possible alternatives to stealth:

- Lightning reflexes (general defense ability)
When activated drains action points, in the same way the current stealth does. Increases the chance to resist magic spells and the chance to dodge ranged and melee attacks by 90%. Any attack that damages the Witch Elf cancels Lightning Reflexes.

- Frenzied charge (anti-ranged ability)
When used the Witch Elf immediately closes the distance with heir target, rooting them in place for 3 seconds. Any attacks made against her while she makes the charge have a 90% chance to miss/be resisted.

- Hand of Khaine (melee defense ability)
Drawing intricate patterns in the air, all nearby foes are mesmerized. Reduces attack speed of all foes within x yards by 60% for 6 seconds

[Shalaa]

A/ How about just allowing them a speed buff that can be used within combat with short duration and also slightly increases attack speed this works fine for similar classes in countless other mmo's

B/ An aura similar to Morathi (Enchanting Beauty) Slightly lowering your enemies attack power to even out their lack of armour.

C/ A ward save similar to what they had from the couldron of blood.

Took me about 2 seconds to come up with these three so how hard can it be.

[Lobster Mooch]

I just think in general the WE should have a higher Dodge and Magic resistance. With special abilities to increase these by a great amount for very short periods, which would make her a very tactical character as timing will be crucial. Also, with the whole WE and potions, she could also have "Potion abilities" that allow her bonuses vs insert type of damage here.
Or even to get some cool damage buffs, IE is target is currently bleeding (IE has a bleed DOT on them) then the WE gets +x% to hit and damage vs that opponent while they bleed to represent blood frenzy, this again fits well into the way they are/have done abilities that feed into one another.

[Kestrel_Trebor]

As I think about it, I'm not even sure why certain attacks or chains of attacks are limited to use only when you're not "in combat." I guess it's so that you can't repeatedly use these powerful attacks throughout combat -- but they could accomplish the same thing with reuse timers on the abilities, or by only allowing you to use them once every 30 seconds on a single target or something. . .

[Inkdot]

- Hand of Khaine (melee defense ability)
Drawing intricate patterns in the air, all nearby foes are mesmerized. Reduces attack speed of all foes within x yards by 60% for 6 seconds
Warning: Immature joke below (I'm tired)

Is should be:
- Bikini of Khaine (melee defence ability)
Drawing upon the sinister forces of the blood cauldron the Witch Elf flashes her chainmail bikini and mesmerizes all male opponents and/or extra kinky female opponents within 20 yards, reducing attack speed and limits their field of vision to the Witch Elf for 2-20 sec depending on how desperate they are IRL.

... sorry couldn't help myself

[Dukha]

Thats okay, we need a few bad jokes around here aswell. Besides, I'll admit I laughed... Or atleast snickered ;)

[Slick_willy1019]

I was thinking a substantial dodge rating
(this may have already been mentioned but i wasnt really paying attention)
Although i don't really have a big problem with stealth
It's annoying, but if you're smart, easy to adjust and deal with

[Ceyl]

Other Alternatives:

Leaping fury: The WE Instantly leaps 5-10 feet (not really sure of ingame distance). 0.5 sec cooldown. Can be used to quickly cover distances, though it will drain some actionponts. Can also be used for positioning in combat and navigating the battlefield. (basicly a spammable shortranged blink)

Khaines Frenzy: Increase movement speed by 50% and attackspeed by 25%. Unlocks new abilities. Drains actionpoits.

- okay, not very original names, but it was the mechanic I was concentrating on.

[bayle3]

The problem is with the extensive focus on positional and opening attacks.

It's no secret Witch Elves (and by extension WE) were to have openers - abilities that cannot be used once engaged in combat. In addition to escape mechanics like the leap backwards (I don't know what it's called).

In short - WE are getting stealth simply because of how they're designed. In any RvR situation it's nearly impossible to close even a short amount of distance without being placed in combat. Especially once people are aware of how you function. See a Witch Elf? be sure to ping her with an arrow so she's in combat.

The flaw is with openers, not stealth. At least imo. From an aesthetic and lore perspective, the problem definitely isn't stealth - the problem is that Witch Elves are designed as rogues.

(Usual speculative/things will change/not final disclaimer)

i agree with the problems you have stated. i still think they could remove stealth and make the WE a viable mdps. i think combinations of what others have stated, and possibly the use of other combat mechanisms found in daoc would help with positional attacks. very short term stuns (dont think of wow stuns please) would allow you to move and take advantage of a occasional positional move. daoc also had a detaunt move for the friar. that particular move caused the target to be faced away from you, and helped you lose aggro. maybe they could make it function they same for pvp. the lose aggro could simply be losing your target. they did something like this in eq2, with assassins i believe.

i also believe the best solution i have heard was the charge plus aura idea. it really fits the image that comes to my mind of a fanatic, bent on bathing in your blood. the aura could simply be explained as fear, making it harder to concentrate on your aim...

as far as durability after closing, that would have to be balanced by either being able to take the first target down very quickly, or maybe a blood lust?


as a side note, this is a pretty fun thread. it kinda shows what people might have attempted, if they were devs.

[Zoatibix]

Agreed, openers don't need to come from stealth. They can just have a 10 or 20 second cool down.

[pzykozis]

well, i've never known an ability to be unable to be used when in combat, unless your referring to sap, (in context of WoW which whilst isn't my only mmorpg experience is the only experience with a class that has positionals) openers shouldn't be opened from stealth and instead should just be positionals that have mid cooldowns (thats 30 seconds to 2 minutes meaning you could get in 1 maybe 2 per single target fight yes my very own definition :p) that way it rewards tactics and planning rather than i can walk around you in stealth and poke you in the back because you couldn't see me (even if this version of stealth isn't as powrful as WoW's or DAoC's, it will still allow you to move around without being seen alot more so than a player who runs around to the flanks).

then again im slightly biased because i don't want stealth in the game, as i want my frenzy bloodlusting crazy pzyko woman of doom!

Edit: i forgot to say that i agree with most here that have said to give the WE a higher passive dodge/parry/resist chance and give short buffs to be used tactically as you approach your target, and perhaps accompany this with a closing ability like a leap, hey if they can allow you to leap out of combat i'm sure you could allow the WE to leap into combat.

[Dukha]

Actually I guess nothing is stopping us from running towards our enemy then just turn around before hitting Agile Escape... I asume we can mouseturn so that should be instant if you have any mousehandling skill at all.
Would look kinda stupid though ;)

[bayle3]

Actually I guess nothing is stopping us from running towards our enemy then just turn around before hitting Agile Escape... I asume we can mouseturn so that should be instant if you have any mousehandling skill at all.
Would look kinda stupid though ;)

lol. this made me laugh. all this time, i had thought only i had warped thoughts like this... ;)

[Veriag]

Great ideas,

Many have been mentioned on other threads packed full of good alternatives.

But i do get the sensation of warm droplets being blown back in my face while reading this.

[Zoatibix]

/hug

Just tell yourself it is Asure blood, sweetie.

[Axxar]

Like I've suggested a long long long time ago, I still believe the best alternative is a Leap Attack, similar to the Agile Escape, except in reverse. Target a guy, use the ability, leap onto him while stabbing your daggers into his chest and building a combo point or two in the process.

[Xurré]

Actually I guess nothing is stopping us from running towards our enemy then just turn around before hitting Agile Escape... I asume we can mouseturn so that should be instant if you have any mousehandling skill at all.
Would look kinda stupid though ;)
I've got the feeling that you need to be in melee range of your target to use Agile Escape on him; in fact I think they pretty much said that when they announced the class almost a year ago (has it been that long already).


Like I've suggested a long long long time ago, I still believe the best alternative is a Leap Attack, similar to the Agile Escape, except in reverse. Target a guy, use the ability, leap onto him while stabbing your daggers into his chest and building a combo point or two in the process.
I agree, that seems one of the best options.



Personally I also think that there is room for just a general jump buff. Perhaps similar to Combat Jumping in CoH. Though a targetted jump attack like you suggest might be easier to balance since it's naturally more limited.

For the rest I think that there's also room for evasion against ranged attacks. This I think can come in several forms. First is the passive defense increasing dodge ability against ranged attacks only (and maybe only works while not in combat). Another could be an activated ability that gives this protection for a limited time. A third could be this, but only gives protection against one specific target ("for the next ten seconds you're completely immune from ranged attacks made by your current target"). I can also see abilities that give a one-off triggered protection ("after activating this ability the next attack/next x attacks will have a ..% chance of missing" or "after activating this ability the next AoE you're in has a ..% chance of not affecting you").

This way you can add all kinds of interesting evasion gameplay, like a crazed Witch darting across the battlefield dodging arrows and magic missiles almost as if by magic, steadily closing the distance until she can sink her daggers into the chest of her increasingly panicking target. :twisted:

For the rest I see the Witch Elf as an agile class that jumps in and out and in and out of combat, never in one place long and constantly changing targets. She's hard to hit, but when you do hit her it hurts and she'll go down quickly. First you have to actually hit her though.

Now that sounds like a lot of fun to play. :)


- Xurré

[Axxar]

Focusing on the witch elf's agility would no question be the best way to make her less squishy while still being er... squishy. I mean it's just so obvious, so I hope Mythic has something like this in store for her. Would also add a lot to the whole "frenzied" feel they should possess.

[Ayetalam]

Problem i see based on videos and writeups by event attendees, it that you can tab target and when you cast a spell you auto-turn to always be facing the target. So unless their abilities also negate ranged and magical damage aswell as the other effects, those abilities wont solve the problem where the RDPS will crush them after 2 hits from the WE because theyve been casting the entire time. While stealth doesnt let them cast till after you start your main attack, if they even notice you.

So instead of having a bit of dmg dealing time when you come out of stealth, you are welcomed with fire, arrows and bullets that will pretty much kill you on the spot as soon as you finish your leap.

They most likely will not balance for 1v1fights, but for large scale battles with numerous numbers of every archtype and class.

[pzykozis]

Xurré's trademark wall of text

I agree fully with this if the witch elf played like that i'd have no trouble trying to figure out what to roll anymore.

[Zoatibix]

So instead of having a bit of dmg dealing time when you come out of stealth, you are welcomed with fire, arrows and bullets that will pretty much kill you on the spot as soon as you finish your leap.


Not if leaping deselects you as a target. They are going to have to reselect you amongst other targets, eg tanks, other MDPS, DoKs*.

We also need to address the problme that stealth doesn't keep you alive inbetween uses. The AoE, DoT and Instant cast world of RvR is not conducsive to healers wanting to keep glass cannon melee dpsers alive. WE would need other mechanics/attributes for that.

Why not expand on those - which would require less adjustment to all the other classes - instead of introducing a mechanic they swore they wouldn't implement?

*That's assuming the WE gets people going in with her rather than the classic 'two sides of a valley shooting at each other' scenario.

[Xurré]

So unless their abilities also negate ranged and magical damage aswell as the other effects, those abilities wont solve the problem where the RDPS will crush them after 2 hits from the WE because theyve been casting the entire time.
That’s generally the idea of the evasion-type suggestions; avoid ranged and magical attacks and such. Maybe something along the lines of “as long as you’re moving these attacks have a ..% increased chance of missing”.

While stealth doesnt let them cast till after you start your main attack, if they even notice you.
I don’t quite see the difference here. Before they use the ability they can both be targeted. While they’re using the ability they both can’t be targeted (a charge or leap or shadowstep would be too quick to target them or, in the case of slower variants, the character could simply be made untargetable for the duration). And you can target them both again after the ability finishes.

In all cases the point is to take the enemy by surprise.

They most likely will not balance for 1v1fights, but for large scale battles with numerous numbers of every archtype and class.
While this might be true, I do feel that they should be viable independent of the group they’re in. It shouldn’t matter whether there’s one Witch Elf and for the rest only healers to keep the Witch Elf alive, or no healers at all and only other damage classes.

If the class relies on there being another specific class around before they are survivable and can do their main job (taking out casters, ranged attackers and healers) then the design of the class has failed. Because that class isn’t always going to be around and I don’t want the viability of the class I want to play depend on what other people choose to play.


I’ve also been reading up on what “shadowstep” is and, from the descriptions from several games (WoW and GW particularly) it sound like that’s exactly the “charge” ability that’s been suggested (by me among others) before; a straight teleport to the target. Possibly with positional variants so that you can choose to end up either in front of or behind the target.

Another interesting though is that if it doesn’t use pathing to determine where you can shadowstep to (but just requires that you have a valid target) then it could also be used to scale walls of keeps and such and attack enemies from within, adding additional utility to the class and preventing them from having to man siege engines during the first stages of a siege. But then, if that’s a design the developers don’t want then I’m fine with a pathing-limited version too.


- Xurré

[Ayetalam]

Another interesting though is that if it doesn’t use pathing to determine where you can shadowstep to (but just requires that you have a valid target) then it could also be used to scale walls of keeps and such and attack enemies from within, adding additional utility to the class and preventing them from having to man siege engines during the first stages of a siege. But then, if that’s a design the developers don’t want then I’m fine with a pathing-limited version too.


- Xurré

Well there is a difference between the WoW and GW one. The WoW one does limit to pathing. So you couldn't shadowstep to someone standing up on a building. Also if there is no room behind the target, it either fials, or teleports you to their side. GW is like an all out go anywahere anytime shadowstep.

[Morelius]

I would actually like to see ONE gaming company show some originality regarding stealth, and make it so it takes skill. When I say stealth, I mean sneaking, trying to not be noticed, NOT invisibility. Instead of just cloning whats been done before because its easy and loved by skill-less griefers, be ground-breaking and make it involve some brain power and skill.

I was playing WoW with my gf just before, she was on a female night elf druid with green hair. By chance she was wearing leathers that were browns and greens. And she was actually very hard to see against the forest background (ashenvale). If it wasn't for her billboard name over her head, unless I was attentive or she got really close, I probably would have missed seeing her.

My idea is allow ALL characters to remove their bright fluro gigantic billboard names above their heads for enemies to see. (Maybe combined with a movement speed slowing effect as you carefully step as quietly as you can). Now it means your enemies actually have to pay attention to their screen. I know that making the players pay attention is not something mmorpgs are famous for, but give it a go. Once you click on the character the name can appear, sorta representing the fact that you have noticed them, and are now aware of them.

The skill part comes in by wearing clothes that blend in more with your environment, and also utilising any terrain, hills, trees, bushes etc to get closer to your enemy, moving when they are looking away, flanking them etc etc. Yes it would involve some skill and effort, but effectively, if you decide to be sneaky, then no matter what your character, you can attempt it.

Noises are another part of being stealthy. Now its hard to represent this in a mmorpg, as there are spell noises, and music and what not. This I believe could be represented visually by transparency. For example, if a fully plated knight tried to avoid notice, they could try, but they would appear fully opaque. Whilst a witch elf, wearing little can walk softly, so they would receive some semi-transparency, not full invisibility, but say the same transparency a shaman ghost wolf form has. Other characters could have varying degrees of transparency depending on their gear.

The other alternative is to make it so a plate wearer's billboard name will become visible when within 25 yards, whilst a cloth wearer's name will only become visible at 10 yards.

Those are some ideas. Witch elves and witch hunters could get their "stealth" with more transparency than other classes (shadow warriors should also get it) or a longer lasting name hidden skill. What this would mean is that it truly is stealth, not lazy, lame, skill-less, broken game-mechanic of invisibility, Mythic wouldn't look to be liers, and whether it is successful or not would depend on the attentiveness of the enemy, and the approach and cover used by the one attempting to stealth. In effect, it involves player effort, brainpower, and skill, something never seen before in previous mmorpg's stealth.

When game companies cater to the lowest common-denominator for intelligence and skill, ie, keyboard mashing monkies can succeed, they shouldn't be surprised that this becomes their market, and they have to deal with these kind of people. Take a tour of the WoW forums (rogue especially) or in-game trade channels for an example. Fingers crossed Mythic drop the "screw lore, we want invisible classes" approach and refocus on appealing to people who actually like the warhammer world, and don't spell every word they type with numbers. (U no, @ll th0$3 L337 d00ds).

[Noli me Tangere]

I still like the idea of a rush or charge ability, that sends the Witch Elf hurtling at their target, slashing anyone on their way to the target, where they then tear into their target like savage and blood thirsty beasts.

[Elesarana]

A short stealth based on how much AP you had, and while you were in it, it drains AP until you are unstealthed

[Alota]

A short stealth based on how much AP you had, and while you were in it, it drains AP until you are unstealthed

That's the system they have now. But the big problem lies lorewise and that there is no need for a stealth mechanic for balance. There are many other ways.

[Noli me Tangere]

It really should be a bit easier to imagine the Witch Elf with a closing ability, that isn't stealth, than it seems to be. I thought of a variant of the Savage, where mechanics are concerned, when I thought of Witch Elves in WAR. Self Buffs that cost health when they wear off, that multi-hit almost constantly and very hard. Add onto that a very bloody, and physical closing ability, and the whole package.. it just seemed obvious.

I have no clue where they connected rogue-like and stealth to the Witch Elf.

They had a very similar class, in some ways, already in their repertoire to apply here. I don't think it should have been a perfect clone, but I thought the potential for inspiration, right there, was blindingly obvious.

[Prodigy]

Some sort of charge mechanic could replace stealth imo

[Dukha]

I have no clue where they connected rogue-like and stealth to the Witch Elf.

They ate mushrooms not really suitable for the purpouse of eating?

Sorry, I just couldnt help myself ;)

[Noli me Tangere]

Some sort of charge mechanic could replace stealth imo

Yes.. Something like that, with a twist befitting of the Witch Elf.

The idea of a charge that quickly slashes at people on the way to the target, or a charge that does an AoE melee attack upon reaching the target. Something along those lines. You know, bloody and crazy looking. :p

They ate mushrooms not really suitable for the purpouse of eating?

Sorry, I just couldnt help myself ;)

Of course. :rolleyes:

[seirios]

i say make them dodge melee/ranged and block some part of spell dmg with a skill, like in the cinematic. but no stealth. they already are said to be cloth-killers...

[rogue_gamecube]

i say make them dodge melee/ranged and block some part of spell dmg with a skill, like in the cinematic. but no stealth. they already are said to be cloth-killers...
The whole problem is their primary role, cloth-killers, wasn't being fulfilled without the stealth mechanic. They are marginally better armored than clothies, and clothies are designed to down tanks, so imagine how long it would take them if they kited MDPS players the majority of the time, which clothies already do in other games similar to WAR?

I hear talk, again, of things like charges, increased dodge and the like. Well, how do you give them charge that's balanced against other classes? Put it on a 30 or 40 second CD?! They already have something like that for most classes, and that wasn't working well enough, if at all. RDPS are, first and foremost, ranged. MDPS are melee. There are [b]massive[/i] distances to cover before MDPS even get in range to do any damage, and by then you can easily be kited and focus fired until you're at half health or much less. Dodge won't help against magic, all they need is the range, you'd need increased resistances to magic as well, and that would be too OP against support with their dependence on DoT's and similar. For charge to work, you would have to be able to use it at least three times in an average fight, and from what we've seen the average fight is about 1 minute in length. Therefore, you'd need a charge ability, immune to movement impairing effects, on a 15-20s CD. That, of course, is stupid OP, as you could jump from one target to another with an opening charge in a large RvR fight so often to exploit players in the back of a defensive line constantly. That would be far worse than a lore issue to do with Stealth not being exclusively mentioned or written about as an ability of the classes using it.

There is a reason Stealth is used so often, and for this exact purpose. Point me towards a game that provides a solution to this exact problem, not involving Stealth, and then tell me how wrong Stealth is.

:cool:

[Dukha]

The whole problem is their primary role, cloth-killers, wasn't being fulfilled without the stealth mechanic. They are marginally better armored than clothies, and clothies are designed to down tanks, so imagine how long it would take them if they kited MDPS players the majority of the time, which clothies already do in other games similar to WAR?

I hear talk, again, of things like charges, increased dodge and the like. Well, how do you give them charge that's balanced against other classes? Put it on a 30 or 40 second CD?! They already have something like that for most classes, and that wasn't working well enough, if at all. RDPS are, first and foremost, ranged. MDPS are melee. There are massive distances to cover before MDPS even get in range to do any damage, and by then you can easily be kited and focus fired until you're at half health or much less. Dodge won't help against magic, all they need is the range, you'd need increased resistances to magic as well, and that would be too OP against support with their dependence on DoT's and similar. For charge to work, you would have to be able to use it at least three times in an average fight, and from what we've seen the average fight is about 1 minute in length. Therefore, you'd need a charge ability, immune to movement impairing effects, on a 15-20s CD. That, of course, is stupid OP, as you could jump from one target to another with an opening charge in a large RvR fight so often to exploit players in the back of a defensive line constantly. That would be far worse than a lore issue to do with Stealth not being exclusively mentioned or written about as an ability of the classes using it.

There is a reason Stealth is used so often, and for this exact purpose. Point me towards a game that provides a solution to this exact problem, not involving Stealth, and then tell me how wrong Stealth is.

:cool:
(main point in shortened form at the bottom)

Well, how would Stealth help the Witch Elf to not get kited as well? Sure, I get the opening blow but then what? As you say yourself, fights are supposed to last up to a minute so I see no reason why the clothie I'm trying to kill wont just use whatever means of kiting that they have to get away and then pound me from afar. Unless of course you are suggesting a one minute long stunlocking combo that is. You could even argue that this is a game based on teamplay, my one minute stunlock should be interupted by the clothies tank friend and on that basis argue that locking someone down for that long is okay.

Or I suppose that the stealth could be reapplied in combat and add a movement boost so I can catch up again. Having it balanced against the clothies self defense mechanics so its sort of a tug of war between us. I stealth and attack, he pops his defenses, I restealth and go after him and so on and so forth untill one of us screws up. That would of course mean that I would have to be able to restealth several times during that minute.

First suggestion is, at least to me clearly insanely stupid and so overpowered its actually funny unless you are at the recieving end.
Second one is maybe not as apparently insane but really not far off.

Thing is, Witch Elfs and Witch Hunters do need a mechanic to get close and then STAY close. Just one move to close the distance wont help them and it wont matter if its stealth or a charge or whatever. Thats my point here, stealth will not solve the problem of having a chance to stay close during that full minute that the fight is expected to take. And if they cant somehow stay close then they will not be able to fulfill their purpouse of being a counter to RDPS. Besides, battles are not only expected to take one minute one on one. Its WAR and huge epic battles will be the order of the day. Battles in total will last way longer than one minute and to be competitive and viable there has to be mechanics that allow you to close the gap again and again during the duration of the battle. Once again, unless I can restealth while in combat a stealth mechanic wont help with that either.

As to the Charge ability on a 15 second cooldown being stupidly overpowered I disagree. Sure if I got extended freedom from movement impairing effects and a substantial added bonus as, say a stun or damage along with it I'd agree that it would probably be overpowered yes. But the mechanic need not be that extreme. Lets say a 20 second cooldown and a 1 second stun that is capable of being resisted would be fair enough I think. Antikiting abilities, snares or other ways to maintain melee range would need to be on different abilities. Oh and for suitability a charge like that would fit perfect, just check my sig. Thats still the official word, last I checked ;)

And sorry no I cant point you to a game that has effectively solved this issue, not to a degree that makes everyone happy. Then again, I bet you cant point me to a game where stealth has been implemented in a way that is viable and agreed by all that it is working well.

Anyhoo, I'll reiterate my main point.

Stealth will not solve the main problem wich is MAINTAINING melee range, not just attaining it.

[Thrakkesh]

Anyhoo, I'll reiterate my main point.

Stealth will not solve the main problem wich is MAINTAINING melee range, not just attaining it.

THIS.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, THIS.

If Stealth solves some mystical problem that they're having, we can surmise only a few things

1). That battles do not take a 'long time' as was touted by Mythic, and indeed can be gib-fests. Which is bad.

2). That the Witch Elf has enough control off stealth to keep a person in melee until they're dead, likely through hideous snaring, interrupts or stuns, which is also bad and generally not wanted.

3). That the Witch Elf can get into combat via stealth and is still frail as hell and vulnerable for the amount of time it takes for her to dismantle the clothie in a slower paced game, lacking frustrating stunlocks which frankly are the only thing that is keeping the Clothie from simply burning his escapes/short CCs to peel it off or worse yet, the assist train to neatly smash her poorly-armored self which is also bad.

Which leaves me wondering just what is it? Is it another case of Mythic going back on what they said? (Heck, there wasn't supposed to be stealth, is it going to be gib-fests too?) Are Witch Elves and Hunters going to be stun-based frustration-machines that will be complained about for years to come? Is this a stupid band-aid fix that ultimately doesn't solve the underlying problem?

Who the hell even knows anymore.