Unfortunate Proof of Stealthing Witch Elves

[Estebar]

From this month's News from the Front: (http://herald.warhammeronline.com/warherald/NewsArticle.war?id=123) High Elf warriors, clad in livery of Asuryan, emerged from an Undersea cave. They were the Shining Guard. Led by Prince Eldrion, this regiment quickly fortified their position and surveyed what was left of Calumel.

"Prince!" cried Eldrion's most trusted advisor, Captain Talorith. "Witch Elves close in on us from the east!"

The Prince turned to see several of the Dark Elf witches racing toward his formation. They had approached stealthily, sneaking between foliage and rock using the chaos of Calumel's ruins as a diversion.

"Take up arms and prepare for attack!" Prince Eldrion barked.

The Witch Elves were swift, closing the distance to the Undersea cave with great speed. Their eyes were ablaze with eagerness to spill the blood of their kin.

Prince Eldrion drew his sword. "Do not succumb to fear or hatred," he warned his men. "Calm your minds, and remember your training."

The Witch Elves were everywhere now. They had closed in on the Shining Guard from all angles.

"Attack!" cried the Prince, and the High Elves charged toward the enemy.

The ensuing battle was brief, but savage. The Witch Elves' eagerness for blood proved their undoing, and none survived. "You fought with honor and courage, but do not think all battles will be so easily won," the Prince addressed his regiment as he cleaned the gore from his blade. Sorry guys. :(

But, I guess even lethal predators like lionesses and tigresses have to stalk and sneak to catch their prey on occasions, eh?

EDIT: Also, thought I'd include the Witch Elf Summary shown below the short story.


The Witch Elves are the sanctified brides of Khaine, the Lord of Murder, and they serve their patron deity with savage pleasure. Wielding long daggers and prowling
across the battlefield, the Witch Elves will sacrifice anyone and anything in their path as an offering to please the Bloody-Handed Lord.

With each strike of their weapons, the Witch Elves drive themselves deeper into a furious bloodlust, until they finally sate themselves in a horrific frenzy. Using their Khaine-blessed weapons, a Witch Elf can slice into her enemy and then corrupt their very blood upon her blades, briefly granting even more power to her attacks. Also, how unlike a Witch Elf does that she-Elf in that picture beside the Witch Elf summary look? She's fully clothed!!! :o

(...and I realise that, poster below. I just meant that there is now evidence of lore adjustments in WAR showing Witch Elves sneaking, as well as in-game functions which we all know about.)

[Rowhin]

Yeah, uhm...we've had video footage of sneaking Witch Elves for weeks. That is a little more solid evidence ;)

[Dyst]

Personally I think stealth is a positive inclusion. It can add more dynamic to the fighting and the game as a whole. If they manage to pull it off correctly.

[GreenT]

And besides, all we know about this stealth is it is being tested in beta. No wonder it's mentioned in a beta report!

"To approach someone stealthily" does not imply invisibilty, you know...

[Xurré]

Also, how unlike a Witch Elf does that she-Elf in that picture beside the Witch Elf summary look? She's fully clothed!!! :o
That's not a Witch Elf.


- Xurré

[Estebar]

That's not a Witch Elf.


- Xurré Ah. Well, in that case, they shouldn't put that picture of her right next to the Witch Elf class summary. Boggles the mind.

[Dukha]

Ah. Well, in that case, they shouldn't put that picture of her right next to the Witch Elf class summary. Boggles the mind.
Many things do at this moment in time :-?

EDIT: At the very least those stories refer to fast movement across the battle field so thats good I suppose. Even if the hidden message seems to be "if only they had tried sneaking..." Which makes me a not very happy panda at all :evil:

[CaptainAwesome]

Like I stated before If careers did have stealth It certainly won't be overpowered

[Xurré]

Ah. Well, in that case, they shouldn't put that picture of her right next to the Witch Elf class summary. Boggles the mind.
They just put it one section too low.


- Xurré

[Lord Tareq]

Forum censure at its finest here.:rolleyes:

I'm really dissapointed with both stealth being in the game "there will be no stealth in WAR" - remember?, and it being given to Witch Elves, a class which is background-wise always described as being frenzied maniacal berserkers.
I detest how Mythic now tries to give them a "sneaky" image with lame background stories like the one posted by the OP. And my faith in them being able to properly impement Dark Elves has dropped to an extreme low. I'm almost afraid to find out what horrible injustice they did to the Black Guard. Perhaps a core escape mechanic that lets them flee from battle more easily then other classes? I shiver at the thought...

[abr4]

If they manage to pull it off correctly.

You can't pull off stealth correctly for Witch Elves.

[shotgunbadger]

You can't pull off stealth correctly for Witch Elves.

QFT

It was so nice to see all the work Mythic put into all the other races being so 'realistic' for their lore. Sad to see we DE get shafted in this aspect though, glad most RP guilds are making workarounds for it though.

[bayle3]

It was so nice to see all the work Mythic put into all the other races being so 'realistic' for their lore. Sad to see we DE get shafted in this aspect though, glad most RP guilds are making workarounds for it though.

well that kinda sparks my interests. what kind of ideas do you have in mind? for working around the stealth issue that is.

[Hive]

QFT

It was so nice to see all the work Mythic put into all the other races being so 'realistic' for their lore. Sad to see we DE get shafted in this aspect though, glad most RP guilds are making workarounds for it though.

So far they've demolished the lore for 3 of the 4 Dark Elf classes, I'm waiting for them to screw up the Black Guard for a flawless victory... :(

[Ayetalam]

So far they've demolished the lore for 3 of the 4 Dark Elf classes, I'm waiting for them to screw up the Black Guard for a flawless victory... :(

For me that word is replaced by "vastly improved". I personally prefer this lore over the old TT lore.

[Zoatibix]

Really? Please elaborate, dear fellow.

Being able to be a Druchii was the thing that drew me to this game. Maybe Mythic decided they would give all the kiddie stuff to the DE because Elves = Kiddies in WoW.

Grrr...Choppas don't look right in bikinis...

[Zunjin]

I dont consider really consider a fan made story some proof of lore. Neither do I say his ( the fan ) story is wrong or missdone. Its his own story and he decides the content as long as it follows the setting, and I dont find the story unreasonable really. If its part of Mythic's plan to give a hint about the witch elf class they could have done it through a more proffesional way ( with proffesional writers ) in my opinion. The quality of these stories are simply just good enough to serve as entertainment for me atleast, and not some released facts about the game.


Edit: Last post done by me. See you around in war.

[Dukha]

Grrr...Choppas don't look right in bikinis...
Hehe, I feel the same way :p

[Xurré]

well that kinda sparks my interests. what kind of ideas do you have in mind? for working around the stealth issue that is.
It depends a lot on how the class works in general, but the first idea is simply not use it, at all. Playing them true to how they’re supposed to be and not this cockamamie nonsense EA Mythic has turned it into.

Exact strategies for how to do that depend on the final game and probably won’t be easy. Perhaps it requires a much greater reliance on the other classes in the guild. Perhaps it means the class can only viably be played in very select places (like the tight corridors of a keep or city perhaps). Perhaps it means that the class in general will be very difficult to play. And perhaps it’ll even be completely impossible.

But if anyone has any faith left in EA Mythic’s ability to make this an enjoyable game then they also have to believe that they won’t lock people into such a narrow, singular playstyle. In fact it’s likely that they added the ability to diversify the class and give people more options, which means the other options should be viable as well (not to mention that a class that so relies on such limited stealth is simply not a viable PvP class). As such if people want the true representation of Witch Elves then there are guilds where they’re guaranteed to find only that.

It probably also helps that we’re (or I am at least) much more interested in roleplaying than top-level PvP (and there’s always PvE as well if PvP is untenable for true Witch Elves). For roleplaying class balance and combat viability is far less of an issue to begin with.

I just don’t understand why they picked the lore-breaking stealth to differentiate the class and not one of the dozens of other things they could’ve done to differentiate the class.



For me that word is replaced by "vastly improved". I personally prefer this lore over the old TT lore.
It’s fine that you prefer this lore, but even you must concede (as you do by stating it as “this lore” versus “old lore”) that this isn’t the original lore anymore, that it bears little resemblance to the style it’s supposed to have anymore.

That you like it better is another thing, but also completely irrelevant because they’re not calling it “Ayetalam’s Lore; Age of Reckoning”. They’re calling it Warhammer and as such I feel it should be Warhammer. Simply because one might like the Star Wars lore better than the Warhammer one doesn’t mean that they should start including blaster pistols and lightsabers. Simply because someone likes the Warhammer 40K lore better doesn’t mean they should include Space Marines and Craftworlds.

This is called Warhammer and a lot of people are here for Warhammer because they like it the way it is, not what EA Mythic is turning it into.



I dont consider really consider a fan made story some proof of lore. Neither do I say his ( the fan ) story is wrong or missdone. Its his own story and he decides the content as long as it follows the setting, and I dont find the story unreasonable really. If its part of Mythic's plan to give a hint about the witch elf class they could have done it through a more proffesional way ( with proffesional writers ) in my opinion. The quality of these stories are simply just good enough to serve as entertainment for me atleast, and not some released facts about the game.
But the fact remains that EA Mythic still chose to publish this story, seemingly because they feel it reflects what their game and the beta is like.

If I wrote a story noting how healing in the name of Khaine is blasphemy and how sneaking earns Witch Elves a painful death due to their unsuitability then, no matter how well written, I doubt that it’d be published as the opening story of their beta report since it would go counter to what they’re doing in the game.

If this “Witch Elves sneak around and die easily thanks to their frenzy” isn’t how things are in beta then they at least should’ve rewritten small parts of the story. For example:

“The Prince turned to see several of the Dark Elf witches racing toward his formation. They approached screaming, with insanity in their eyes, tearing violently through foliage and darting over the rock scattered throughout Calumel’s ruins.”

and

“The ensuing battle was brief, but savage. The Witch Elves' eagerness for blood cost him the lives of numerous of his men, but their valor won them the battle. "You fought with honor and courage, but do not think all battles will be so easily won," the Prince addressed his regiment as he cleaned the gore from his blade.”

Here, I modified two lines in the entire story, which took me all of five minutes. It didn’t really change anything in the storyline and yet it now properly represents Witch Elves. The sneaking has no value in the story at all and neither had mentioning how easily they got themselves killed due to their frenzy. In fact, I think that the way I rewrote it now serves to make both sides seem strong and competent (while still favoring the High Elves from whose perspective it is written).

No, I won’t excuse EA Mythic for posting that story (or any other as this certainly isn’t the first time) just because supposedly a fan with no real grasp of the lore (probably due to EA Mythic representing it wrong in the first place) wrote it instead of them. After all, they chose to pick this story to represent their beta experience.

And it tells me that they’re getting it so very, very wrong.


- Xurré

[Shalaa]

The latest polls on the drucii forum here is ultimate proof that the said company have lied to us about listening to the public, I don't care if the moderators take a stance to try take away our freedom of opinion because I feel they have their own agenda and fact is fact. The latest poll has the lowest showing for this class we have ever seen and four of the ten people who voted for having a Witch elf are infact members of our guild........ So all you pro stealth people why aint you voting for witch elf seeing as you love the mechanic so much?

And to all those non LURE people (and yes using the correct word might get me a warning) Who support our stance on this issue for whatever reason thankyou very much for your support.

[Zoatibix]

A Disciple complaining about Mythic's attidude towards the lore...

/snigger (in a playful way)

[Xurré]

A Disciple complaining about Mythic's attidude towards the lore...

/snigger (in a playful way)
Not a Disciple of Khaine, but a Seer. A background for the Disciple class that actually does fit.


- Xurré

[Veriag]

The story was a symptomatic indicator of the approach and stance that the game designers are taking. They of course are defending and justifying there decisions which they have everyright to do so. Just as players have everyright to express their opinions on this.

What i find particulalrly frustrating is that as time goes on they seem the be digging themselves deeper and deeper holes in the ground while throwing barrage after barrage of meaningless "awesomeness" in the hope that player opinion will eventually ethier give way under the weight of media hype or at least disappear in its suffocating smoke. And all this is is being actively supported by the way this site is being modded ( i prefer the word sensored).

A recent post of mine which looked at the above stance on the developement of a certain class in a humorous way, but with a very serious point to it, was edited and deleted within 3 mins of posting and a warning issued. ( for content check the siggy) I'm not having a go or whinging at anyone here. But i would like to make my opinion clear that for all its good things and bad we do not have either an independent or unbiased fora here. And for this post I will quite likey get another warning and get banned.

My question to the dev's is, Why should WE have to use any kind of sneaky creepy game mechanic :confused:?

But that's life :D.

V.

[Shalaa]

A Disciple complaining about Mythic's attidude towards the lore...

/snigger (in a playful way)

And it's comments like this that start off the debate and go unpunished yet as soon as somebody stands up for themselves *WHAM* thread locked.

For your information get some facts before making ridiculous comments like that, try my sig and then come back here and apologise or I will be forced to report your flame as were taking no crap anymore...

I'm a paying customer with the said company and am well within my rights to complain, but then again have you ever seen me complain about the ******* of khaine? No you have not and never once have I complained and for the 999999999999th time I will tell you all whatever they do to the LURE I can roleplay it another way.

[Xurré]

Careful Shalaa, I think Zoaty is actually on our side here (and did mean it humerous I'm sure). :p


- Xurré

[Vadimer]

like i said it before their is far worse things tobe scared of then stealth!!

such as a charge that no dmg to the person chargeing a jump half way across the screen atl east you can pop someone out of stealth and their is alot of classes that have AOE's so people should not cringe to stealth
o o o and the assist train muaahaah now that is something that is not lore base if you want to complain about lore their it is lol anyways it is a mmo they have to have some sort of balance in the game. if stealth is done correct it wont matter much and they will beable to complete their tasks as a class without getting a beat down like no other

[Shalaa]

Sorry trying to justify stealth = fail. Look at the facts please.

[Hoodwink]

...if stealth is done correct it wont matter much and they will beable to complete their tasks as a class without getting a beat down like no other...

That's doubtful. You can't complete your tasks while in stealth. You have to show your self in the thick of things if you actually want to do anything and thats when the hammer comes down on you.

Look at all the crazy defensive stuff blizzard had to give rogues to make them group viable. Invisibility affords you very little in an organized or large scale PvP environment.

I've said it a thousand times but here it is again: In any kind of PvP that actually matters stealth classes usually end up getting the short end of the stick. Their strength in 1v1 is almost always used as grounds to deny the class buffs they desperately need to be viable in larger groups.

[Dukha]

I've said it a thousand times but here it is again: In any kind of PvP that actually matters stealth classes usually end up getting the short end of the stick. Their strength in 1v1 is almost always used as grounds to deny the class buffs they desperately need to be viable in larger groups.
And yet it seems like a very common response to stuff like this. "The game is not balanced around 1vs1". Anyways Hoodwink, I absolutely agree.

And Vadimer, most people are not afraid of stealth being overpowered, wich you seem to go to great lenghts to assure us it wont be. Thank you for that kind thought I guess. However the real issue is as follows.

A: Stealth for Witch Elfs have NO basis at all and is a mockery of what the class should be.

B: Balancing a class around Stealth in a game focusing on large scale PvP battles runs the very real risk of making the Witch Elf useless for anything but 1vs1 griefing.

Whichever of these reasons that are important to the individual player I will leave to the individual. Personally though, I'll sign on both. I did not sign up for this game to play an assassin in a bikini that is best when striking from the sahdows at lone targets.

As to the fear that stealth will be overpowered well I'm sure it will be. In 1vs1. Off the beaten path. Against players that maybe should try to use their characters a little better.

[Shalaa]

Careful Shalaa, I think Zoaty is actually on our side here (and did mean it humerous I'm sure). :p


- Xurré

Well if thats the case then I opologise, but I'm genuinely agrivated by by the methods employed to try and silence anybody who speaks their mind on the subject of LURE and no I will not use pm's to mods as they fail to ever reply to our complaints, however this is not the case when people complained about Xurre, this is serious favourtism towards their own agenda. Sorry guys it's the truth and your welcome to try and prove me wrong.

[Pangscar]

Well if thats the case then I opologise, but I'm genuinely agrivated by by the methods employed to try and silence anybody who speaks their mind on the subject of LURE and no I will not use pm's to mods as they fail to ever reply to our complaints, however this is not the case when people complained about Xurre, this is serious favourtism towards their own agenda. Sorry guys it's the truth and your welcome to try and prove me wrong.

Sorry but, umm what? So you want people reported for disagreeing with you? Because thats what you sound like. Sounds like your saying you should be able to say what ever you want and no one is allowed to disagree. You are free to speak your mind all you want about LORE(not LURE) and others are also allowed to disagree. Perhaps its time to take a break from the forums? The game isn't even out yet and some people are taking it WAAAAAAY to seriously.

[Zoatibix]

For your information get some facts before making ridiculous comments like that, try my sig and then come back here and apologise or I will be forced to report your flame as were taking no crap anymore...


I'm not going to apologise for a comment that I clearly indicated was in jest. Therefore you are going to have to report me to the mods. Before you do that take ten mintues to search my previous posts on the Druchii, or talk to Xurre since she knows me of old.

I am adamant that Stealth is completely wrong for Witch Elves from a Lore perspective, and from what I know of mass PVP/RVR the mechanic isnt' going to help them work very well in their role as MDPS, either. In both senses, Stealth for WE sounds like a total bust.

I sincerely hope that Mythic don't implement stealth on the WE. I think Maurauders or some kind or a Goblin Sneaky Git would have been much more fitting if they had to have stealth...something they previously told us they were staunchly against.

Heck, Disciples could have been made into a form of stealthy throat slitter and back-stabbing murderer using Stealth to weave in and out of the front line (de)buffing their enemies and frie-...er...allies....

I'm still slightly leery of Disciples (call them what you want) because I think that they they have taken some flavour and ability from Witch Elves, the class I have wanted to play for over a year now, that I fought for when even the idea of them was being poo-pooed.

But I know that had nothing to do with the players of the class, and everything to do with Mythic wanting to make DAoC 2: Warhammer.

I might even end up playing a Disciple as an alt if they look like fun -although I'm leaning towards Zealot atm. I think they are a much smaller change to the TT Lore than Ninja Witch Elves.

I still want Witch Elf to be my main for several reasons. I will try to play her without resorting to using stealth.

Question my loyalties again, girl, and you will feel the cold of the altar on your back and the warmth of my blade in your belly.

[Shalaa]

Sorry but, umm what? So you want people reported for disagreeing with you? Because thats what you sound like. Sounds like your saying you should be able to say what ever you want and no one is allowed to disagree. You are free to speak your mind all you want about LORE(not LURE) and others are also allowed to disagree. Perhaps its time to take a break from the forums? The game isn't even out yet and some people are taking it WAAAAAAY to seriously.

Totally missing the point, my gripe was against a potential personal flame.. there is a difference and I'm adressing freedom of speech (within reason of course)

I'm not going to apologise for a comment that I clearly indicated was in jest. Therefore you are going to have to report me to the mods. Before you do that take ten mintues to search my previous posts on the Druchii, or talk to Xurre since she knows me of old.

Already opologised for my mistake, sorry about that.

[Garthilk]

Just a reminder,

There is no freedom of speech on these boards, you have no freedoms on these boards. You have zero rights beyond simple right that I allow you to post until such time as I find you a waste of my time or an annoyance to myself, or the community. Let me go ahead and address the original topic while I'm here.

The text of the article definately does seem to suggest that Witch Elfs have a kind of stealth ability. From a lore perspective, I'd agree that stealth for WE's is definately out of place. Thankfully though, I've throw out the very limited, short sighted, narrow perspective that strict lore inflicts upon it's follower. Instead I've realized that WAR lore, is not a duplicate of the tabletop lore, or the roleplay lore, or the novel lore. It is a unique iteration with it's own taste, dislikes and flavor.

You can try to say that WAR lore should be identical to one of the aforementioned iterations. But I can't seem to wrap my head around that narrow perspective. Then again, these are just my opionions. Feel free to make your own.

[Lord Tareq]

You can try to say that WAR lore should be identical to one of the aforementioned iterations. But I can't seem to wrap my head around that narrow perspective. Then again, these are just my opionions. Feel free to make your own.

Fair enough, but why then are all such attempts "to make our own opinions" closed or deleted when they are about wrongdoings to the lore, and more often then not a warning issued under the excuse of "its a dead horse"? (must be the lamest term ever btw).
And ofcourse, when its attempted to contact an admin because its felt as improper moderation, these (polite) PM's do not even warrant a reply, even though I send 3 of them.


You have zero rights beyond simple right that I allow you to post until such time as I find you a waste of my time or an annoyance to myself.

Aha, that explains alot. So when someone has a different opinion about a situation handled by Mythic, you might find that annoying, which might result in a warning/ban. Really an excellent mentality for running a forum.
Do the forum rules have an actual meaning or is everything handled by personal interpretation of how annoying someone is?

[Xurré]

the very limited, short sighted, narrow perspective that strict lore inflicts upon it's follower.
Nice. :roll:

For many, many months I’ve stood by EA Mythic and the relatively small changes it made to the strict lore. I’ve been in favour of them grouping the Destruction races and the Order races as they do. I’ve been for them introducing female dwarfs. I’ve been for them having male Sorcerers (though I still say that the explanation they’ve given is the poorest one they could come up with). I’ve even been understanding of the gender-restricted classes on Chaos. And many, many, many more things. I very well understand that a game needs to be made and that the strict lore can’t be implemented as strictly.

But this is going way, way, way beyond just bending the strict lore. This is altering the flavor and the general style of the setting. This is turning a class into something it simply is not. This truly is akin to just putting in laserguns and spaceships and robotic clowns just because; none of those things fit the flavor of the Warhammer setting either.

So next time before you make such very limited, short sighted, narrow minded comments please first think about what you’re saying. Because it is blatantly untrue. Simply because you don’t really care about the Warhammer setting doesn’t mean everyone who does is very limited, short sighted, and or narrow minded.

Instead I've realized that WAR lore, is not a duplicate of the tabletop lore, or the roleplay lore, or the novel lore. It is a unique iteration with it's own taste, dislikes and flavor.
But it’s supposed to be Warhammer all the same, or else they should’ve called it something else (Warblade maybe, or Warmongers, or Warsicles). If I order steak in a restaurant and I get chicken then I don’t care how much the chef tries to convince me that it’s a unique recipe he concocted; I ordered steak because I wanted to taste steak.

You can try to say that WAR lore should be identical to one of the aforementioned iterations. But I can't seem to wrap my head around that narrow perspective. Then again, these are just my opionions. Feel free to make your own.
Who said anything about it needing to be identical? And how come that people in favour of what EA Mythic is doing here always seem to have such a very limited, short sighted, narrow perspective? There are more courses than either staying 100% completely true to the letter of the ‘strict’ lore and breaking it to the level that EA Mythic has (and that Games Workshop is apparently allowing them to).

Open your eyes man and look.


- Xurré

[Shalaa]

* Edited for Content *

[Veriag]

Just a reminder,

There is no freedom of speech on these boards, you have no freedoms on these boards. You have zero rights beyond simple right that I allow you to post until such time as I find you a waste of my time or an annoyance to myself, or the community. Let me go ahead and address the original topic while I'm here.

The text of the article definately does seem to suggest that Witch Elfs have a kind of stealth ability. From a lore perspective, I'd agree that stealth for WE's is definately out of place. Thankfully though, I've throw out the very limited, short sighted, narrow perspective that strict lore inflicts upon it's follower. Instead I've realized that WAR lore, is not a duplicate of the tabletop lore, or the roleplay lore, or the novel lore. It is a unique iteration with it's own taste, dislikes and flavor.

You can try to say that WAR lore should be identical to one of the aforementioned iterations. But I can't seem to wrap my head around that narrow perspective. Then again, these are just my opionions. Feel free to make your own.

Thank you,

*Edited for content By Garthilk*

You have failed to answer the the "stealth" question of Why is it needed ?

[Zoatibix]

Apology accepted. We shall say no more about it until Death Night...

I agree that it would be somewhat impractical to make a carbon copy of the TT Lore. Hence, I can see the necessity for a healer/support class on the Drucii bench. I think there was a better candidate but I don't think the Disciple is too far from the original lore.

The problem is that Stealth would run counter to the very nature of the Witch Elf, so I have to question why they wanted the class in the first place.

Both Assassins and Corsairs would have made better stealth dependent MDPS classes. There are some gender issues with Assassin. I dont' think sneaky type raiders is too far a stretch for Corsair. Both options can be melee & stealth while being far more sympathic towards the original lore.

If you can make a cool class that still runs parallel to the original lore, why not go that route? There are lots of Corsair fans, quite a few people like assassins.

Did Mythic really go with Witch Elves because they were iconic blood-thirsty warrior priestesses or because they wanted to make a sexah-cyb00r-ninj4-babe to balance up the Destruction side with a few horny teens?

For the presence of stealth to be announced so late in the day, after so many vehement denials that it would even be in the game, and given to such an unsuitable candidate really feels like they are trying to shoehorn it in at the last minute. I really dont' think that is the case - I think Mythic were looking ahead - but that's the impression it gives me.

Lastly, from what I understand of the role of healers and tanks and WAR I worry that by using stealth to get onto the other side of the enemy the Witch Elf is going to be left on her own, completely unsupported apart from her wonder-bra.

Either they have amazing burst DPS that lets them hit and run back into stealth after 'one-shotting' an enemy caster or they are going to be next to useless. And the screen shots that have just been released only seem to confirm my worry of a typical pvp no-man's land over which casters exchange spellfire.

When I get to play the game in retail I will firstly roll a WE and do my damnedest to get her to 40 without every touching the stealth button, and speccing away from any stealth related abilities.

I don't think this is a breaker for the game overall, but it is a great pity for the character of the Witch Elf and I will be very dissappointed if it makes it to retail.

[Estebar]

The Dwarfs aren't venerating or protecting their womenfolk. No one's taking care of the young 'uns. Plus, the ancient, sacred art of Runesmiths has become nothing more than bastardised instant spellcasting with a lot of symbols. Also, they seem to enjoy trundling around on top of beer-fuelled tractors. (Thanks, Hive).

The Empire has female Warrior Priests and Witch Hunters challenging the stern patriarchy of its dominant church.

The strength of the High Elf White Lion is compromised by his sudden friendship with a baby lion whose mother's skin happens to be draped across his shoulders. The Archmage is showing very little of the mastery of magic he's supposed to have. Instead, he's mirroring a lowly Goblin Shaman who fumbles with magic at best. Oh, and the Everqueen, supposedly the fairest flower (http://uk.games-workshop.com/highelves/special-characters/images/art-everqueen.jpg) in Ulthuan, has become some slutty housewife (http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/images/conceptart/013008_CA02s.jpg) with a Galadriel fetish.

WAAAGH! isn't dangerous, head-blowing fun, nor is it generated by the collective battlelust of the Orc Boyz as it should be. Also, no Orc Shamans, and worse still, the Boyz are showing respect towards the Gobbos. *spits*

Chaos isn't really chaotic at all. The Marauder's mutations come under three definite shapes and a few lesser ones, and all are completely under his control, not Tzeentch's. The Sorceror is stuck to his Disc. And, of course, the all-male Chosen/Marauder fiasco (http://www.secretlivesofmobs.com/index.php?strip_id=21). Chaos lost its fundamental element of randomness.

The Dark Elf Brides of Khaine have been overshadowed by hackneyed Urial Bloodpriests, Sorcerors have been suddenly, temporarily legalised under very silly reasoning, and Dark Magic has been dumbed-down to Dark Bright Wizardry. And now, the Witch Elves will be sneaking up to foes before they start screaming and tearing up the place. Did I get everything?

Seems like we've all had to suffer for Mythic's art. Maybe we should all just learn to get on with it. I don't think I've heard a peep out of the Dwarfs about those "Runepriests"...

[Aggrosh]

There is no freedom of speech on these boards, you have no freedoms on these boards. You have zero rights beyond simple right that I allow you to post until such time as I find you a waste of my time or an annoyance to myself, or the community.

Then again, these are just my opionions. Feel free to make your own.

My little orky head just exploded :roll::roll::roll:

[Hive]

Thankfully though, I've throw out the very limited, short sighted, narrow perspective that strict lore inflicts upon it's follower.
Hey Garth, I've decided I'm going to give you a brand new sports car, but I'm on a limited budget, so the car has no wheels, no engine, no seats... actually, it kinda looks like I took a Porsche hood ornament and duct taped it on run down Chevy. You're still excited about getting the sports car though, right? From an open minded perspective you're still getting what I told you...


Oh dear, how narrow minded and short sighted of me.:rolleyes:



Instead I've realized that WAR lore, is not a duplicate of the tabletop lore, or the roleplay lore, or the novel lore. It is a unique iteration with it's own taste, dislikes and flavor. I don't think any of us asked for an exact duplicate of the lore, but even a passing nod would have been nice and somewhat expected given the title of the game.



You can try to say that WAR lore should be identical to one of the aforementioned iterations. But I can't seem to wrap my head around that narrow perspective. Then again, these are just my opionions. Feel free to make your own. Let me try a twist on one of your favorite examples to better explain our view-- if WAR is Batman, then this Batman is a poor guy named Bob Lane living in a cardboard box outside of a small town in Iowa, he doesn't fight crime using high tech gadgets... but he does recycle cans!

There comes a point when you change so much that it ceases to be involved in the original IP and instead becomes a cheap gimmick to push more boxes. The sad thing is most of the problems wouldn't exist with a few different descriptions-- no change in game play required.



I fully expect to get banned in the near future, but the ultimate irony will be the number of times your post gets reported as being derogatory and inflammatory.


*edit* Don't forget the Dwarf's clown tractor Estebar. If you're going to be sarcastic might as well be thorough.

[Chosen of the Raven]

Two things.

One: Stealth for Witch Elves is just plain stupid. They're berserkers worshipping what many believe to be an aspect of Khorne, the GOD OF WAR AND SLAUGHTER. You see Khorne warriors sneaking around? No? Didn't think so. Witch Elves sneaking would be like a Space Marine shooting people with a paintball gun. It's stupid and makes no sense whatsoever.

Two: Stealth classes are not "useless" in PvP. There is a class called a rogue in WoW (OH MY GOD HE SAID WOW, HIT THE DECK!) that did extremely well (and still does) while using stealth as a primary mechanic. If all you can do is ambush people then that does suck a bit, but by being clever with stealth you can have more fun than you could possibly imagine. Just visualize the horrified, and subsequently enraged, face of your victim as you leap onto his back and cut him to pieces before disappearing and lying in wait for his friends to come see what happened. Rinse and repeat.

[bayle3]

* Edited for Content *

[Garthilk]

You have failed to answer the the "stealth" question of Why is it needed ?
I'd say that it is needed in order to further differentiate the playstyles of MDPS careers. To attract gamers who enjoy playing with stealth. Then again, I don't know why the choice was made, but I have a feeling those two things definately were part of the decision making process. Heck, maybe they needed a half naked career to appeal to younger male gamers. I honestly don't know why the choice was made.

[Chosen of the Raven]

I'd say that it is needed in order to further differentiate the playstyles of MDPS careers. To attract gamers who enjoy playing with stealth. Then again, I don't know why the choice was made, but I have a feeling those two things definately were part of the decision making process.

Possible. But it does shoot a few holes in the "We will not have stealth in Warhammer" statement, and in general disagrees with popular and traditional lore. What stuns me is that GW has to approve the changes Mythic makes, which implies that GW is okay with stealth for Witch Elves. Jaw dropping.

[Revolutionomni]

There's been plenty of threads for these concerns on lore/lure;) and I really hope EA Mythic does give a damn about it. Sure, 90% of the game can be lore compliant but it could easily be better, as others have said, by just changing text, not game-play. I'm excited to play Warhammer because it's just that and not any other IP. I think there's some people in EA Mythic that knows how many people are going to play this game and not be the wiser to what they change and those of us who care can be damned because we're fewer than the masses of ignorant. It's a real shame and I really hope they work to fix or hold the lore that exists from the TT, it's really rich and unique in it's own ways. No reason both parties can't have what they want. = A MMO and a RPG from the Warhammer IP - not just the pieces that were easy to put in. :D

This is just my vent on the issue which so many others feel simularly on and my only hope is that EA Mythic cares, because our CARE, is theirs. We want them to be just as successful and if we had it our way, almost none of their game-play would change but only how it's represented. ;)

Lastly, I really do hope stealth is out for the Witch Elves. I REALLY don't think it's fits the lore and with some more effort they could easily find abilities to give them the edge their looking for. :cool:

[Chosen of the Raven]

They mentioned early on that Witch Elves are very fast and agile. I'd like to see them be a unique, extremely low armor class that moves very quickly, maybe with an ability similar to the rogue Sprint in World of Warcraft. Combine that with berserking abilities for high burst damage, and you could have a sort of "kamikaze" style melee DPS that is very fragile but deals insane damage and can out-maneuver other classes if played effectively.

[Veriag]

These are sound suggestions by the above poster, made yet again on these forums. Though survivability would need to be balanced into the equation some how as PvP fights are rarely one 1v1 and rarely single isolated events.

There have been many similar suggestions over a number of months and a number of threads. However the developers appear to have ignored much of what the player base on these forums have had to say on the subject and pursued a development line that is unpopular with a great number of people ( a majority if I remember the polls rightly). Now some may regard this as being focussed, passionate, and determined, others might regard it as having a limited, short sighted and narrow perspective.

Either way we can only guess at the reasons behind it.

Perhaps they know better than their customers about what we would and would not like to see and what would make the game the more enjoyable experience for all

V.

[bayle3]

Fair enough, but why then are all such attempts "to make our own opinions" closed or deleted when they are about wrongdoings to the lore, and more often then not a warning issued under the excuse of "its a dead horse"? (must be the lamest term ever btw).
And ofcourse, when its attempted to contact an admin because its felt as improper moderation, these (polite) PM's do not even warrant a reply, even though I send 3 of them.



Aha, that explains alot. So when someone has a different opinion about a situation handled by Mythic, you might find that annoying, which might result in a warning/ban. Really an excellent mentality for running a forum.
Do the forum rules have an actual meaning or is everything handled by personal interpretation of how annoying someone is?

totally agree with this post. i lack the skills to post my opinion without consequence.

anyhow, on topic. i assume that mythic will continue doing what they have been doing. i really do not see them removing stealth, or even attempting to rework the WE class in any shape or form at this point. its a shame really, this kind of thinking was what spawned a much hated add on for their other creation. im not even going to say that warhammer is going to fail because of lore breaking, that would be ridiculous. i just expect more from a company that has the experience that they have.

[ZeppelinJ0]

Why do I specifically remember a Paul Barnett video drilling away that there will be NO STEALTH in War (spoken in very excited paul manner).

I also remember seeing a quote somewhere that Mark Jacobs "global rule" is - NO STEALTH.

Whatever happened to all that? I'm sad :(

[Kharlene]

I'm afraid I'm with Estebar on this, it is time to move on (yes, Lord Tareq, no matter how much you may dislike and think it's "stupid" it is the definition of "beating a dead horse"), nothing is changing - and it's the same repetitive obsessive hostility over the "lore" being spewed out over and over again. Look, WH isn't WAR, it's based on - think of it as The Last of the Mohicans book vs. the movie. There are some basic and fundamental similarities, but for anyone who has actually read the book it is absolutely and utterly different. For me, personally, like Mark Twain, I absolutely loathed the book (he gave it quite a scathing review back in his day); however, I don't know how he would have liked the movie, but personally, I loved the movie. They are the same thing at their basic and most fundamental elements, but in the end - they are not exacting and are quite different from each other.

WH TT and WAR are in the same boat with each other. WAR is simply "based on" the WH TT, but like a book made into a movie being "based on" the same thing never (at times even remotely) mean "exactly is". Viewing or expecting the game to precisely like the WH TT "lore", you're inviting yourself to immense amounts of frustration. You have to be willing to keep an open-mind and expect changes, even quite significant changes, and as those of you who truly know the WH "lore" and often harp about, it is quite obvious just that has occurred - quite significant changes have developed.

My personal experience with such occurred with SWG, I hated the direction in which it was going, and it was obvious it was not going to change and it only changed further for the worst, so you know what I did? I left out of my dis-satisfaction for the game. If you feel you can get beyond the immense changes within the "lore" that is being approved and sanctioned by Games Workshop, WH's creators, then by all means you should stay. Naturally, in the end, the choice is yours: get over it and stay, or remain dis-satisfied and keep screaming your dis-satisfaction to the annoyance of all innocent bystanders around you, or simply move on to something else. It may seem like an ultimatum, but it's really not, those really are the choices available - I've had to make them myself more than once, one of which I have already mentioned as an example here.

As for the class mechanics, why the WE was given stealth, yes, even a WH layman like myself can agree that "lore" wise it makes no sense. But gameplay-wise, I can see it, given how light-armored of a class they are - you can't expect them to take too many hits and weather well at all. It just would not make sense in even the most remote of ways. However, why did they choose WEs for this? Initially, I doubt they planned on having stealth to begin with, and looking back over the course of games creation - it supports that theory, but the class was dying too quickly in testing, and thus while it would be far too much of an overhaul and scrap an entire class they have already added to the game *POOF* WEs suddenly are given stealth. I may not agree with the action, but I can empathize and understand the reasoning as a Graphic Artist and MMO PvP gamer, myself.

As for the complaint of the game mechanic itself, well, I pose this question to you: How would you balance it? What would you have done? And lastly, take that idea you just conjured within your first 5 min of my asking those questions without bothering to put everything into perspective and balance it with 23 other individual classes within an RvR setting. I would love to read your explanation and do what a veteran MMO company cannot.

[Browncoat-WHA]

As to the topic, if this is true, then like others, it's in beta. The beta testers are certainly testing this mechanic and if it is proven to be negatively effective on the gameplay and the "feel", it will probably be changed or tweaked. I played "rogue" like classes and understand why people are turned off by previous exposure to the stealth m echanic - however, I reserve judgment until I actually see how it works.

---

And now, a moderation note.

As the person among the staff who probably spends the most time browsing this particular corner of the forum, this is pretty much the last I feel I'm going to say regarding concerns about our moderation. I don't want to derail this thread further. Further replies should be taken to PM - which, by the way, I answer and have - or you are more than welcome to create a productive thread in Site-Related Discussion. By productive I mean, a thread geared towards our moderation in general with examples and most of all constructive feedback. Accusations of bias, unfairness, and censorship go nowhere with us - not necessarily because they are annoying (if we find them annoying then it might be natural but it doesn't interfere with our job), but because we can't do anything about them. If someone wants to have the opinion that we're biased, that we're asshats, or that we're generally stifling, then that is ok, bless you for it - but they are easily filed under the pile of "1001 Ways Moderators are Told They Suck" and don't help us be better moderators and staff.

As for not being allowed to express your opinion:
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31418 - 42 pages on Stealth
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26147 - 6 pages on
Disciple Alternatives
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25338 - 10 pages on Disciple Problems
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23222 - 17 pages on Disciple and the lore
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22108 - 24 pages on Dark Elf healers, much of it lore discussion

This is just a fraction of the threads that have been allowed to exist regarding these issues. People have had more than their fair share to present their opinions on the issue that is supposedly being "censored". These threads are also all closed. They are closed because the point was long since proven, ground into the dust, and recycled. You could write an 80+ page thread with nothing but arguments about one topic and it would ultimately be unproductive due to people not reading the first 79 pages, bringing up the same circular points, and what amounts to simply, who can shout the other side down the loudest. That's where "dead horse" comes into play. Some of you might think an endless argument is productive. I would disagree, and so would a significant portion of individuals who realize that sometimes you need to agree to disagree, that arguments and debates have an expiration date.

My idea in closing these threads was not to stifle discussion, but to simply say - hey, your point is taken, I think everyone has discussed all they can - let's move on to another related topic or something new. As someone with extensive moderating experience, no one is going to want to watch the same points go around for 40 or 50 pages - they're either not going to participate or move on to something new. 40-50 page threads that devolve into circular debate, most likely filled with barbs and insults are simply not productive.

Anyway, like I said I do not want to derail this thread with the inevitable replies and counterreplies. The topic was created under the pretense of new information and it should stay open and on track. Please PM me if you have specific things to say regarding this post.

[shotgunbadger]

Browncoat, my problem isn't that you lock the threads, but that rather Xurre and anyone who sides with her is told 'stop beating a dead horse!' but people who try to poke them into a fight are fine. It reeks of vendettas to me, and personally reflects poorly on the atmosphere here.

[Scion]

I have to agree with the mods here guys, the topic has been done. I understand your outrage and such, I've read about it over and over again, I've even highlighted that stealth is not a gamebreaking thing for the Witch Elf, even though other choices would have been more accepted by the populace. That being said, however, theres nothing more we can do.
If our words here have any effect on the developers, everything that can be said that is relevant has been said. It's as simple as that. Now I'm sure Browncoat and Garthilk will allow us to keep posting agreements and disagreements in the threads we have already made. But making more and continuing the now, yes, pointless argument and detesting on the subject will simply be tempting the mods to lock.

Don't make their jobs harder, they have threads to throw into the volcano in sacrifice to their great chaos gods.

Keep going on if you must, but the fighting is done, your cause isn't getting any stronger. And if you find it that hard to stop yourself from starting an arguement with someone who can't be bothered looking up what you've said again and again before, then that's tough. You are at fault. Learn some self control. If you don't like the atmosphere, then I'm sure we can all agree that a different one is needed. Maybe some fresh air outside? Take a stress ball.

Just as an added personal note, Dark Elves have been shafted. Shafted hard. And I'll sign any petition, go to any picket line, etc. to help Mythic change their minds. But I won't start a riot. And I hope none of you will either. ;)

[Zoatibix]

I would love to read your explanation and do what a veteran MMO company cannot.

The veteran company that thinks Stealth is going to keep the lowest HP, lowest mitigation DPSer we have alive for more than say five seconds after she uncloaks behind enemy lines?

High Dodge and magic resistence combined with some kind of charge towards the nearest enemy would be more appropriate and keep her within range of the Tanks and Support classes she needs to work with.

With low HPS and virutally no armour the WE can avoid several hits by not 'taking them' but she'll go down faster than other MDPSers when she does get hit.

I think Mythic could have done it with a different mechanic. I don't think they wanted to. My personal belief is that they have done a u-turn on stealth to draw more people in.

[Kharlene]

Browncoat, my problem isn't that you lock the threads, but that rather Xurre and anyone who sides with her is told 'stop beating a dead horse!' but people who try to poke them into a fight are fine. It reeks of vendettas to me, and personally reflects poorly on the atmosphere here.

Now this is a bit bias of a statement, while it is true I often see them getting berated, they do a far share of their own and instigate quite a bit of their own as well. No side is innocent in this regard. So, let's just ease up right there, ok, before something needlessly starts up again.

[Kharlene]

The veteran company that thinks Stealth is going to keep the lowest HP, lowest mitigation DPSer we have alive for more than say five seconds after she uncloaks behind enemy lines?

High Dodge and magic resistence combined with some kind of charge towards the nearest enemy would be more appropriate and keep her within range of the Tanks and Support classes she needs to work with.

With low HPS and virutally no armour the WE can avoid several hits but as soon as she takes a few she'll go down like a sack of spuds without support. That would make her different to the Choppa and Marauder, both of whom have much better armour and HPs.

Also, I doubt the Mythic cannot do it another way, rather that they didn't want to.

Great, now let's see your explanation as to how it can be done precisely while explaining how it will balance with 23 other classes within an RvRing setting.

Edit: Bear in mind, that 2 classes have not been completely revealed, yet, and that yes, it has to be 23 classes (thus including the classes within the same realm) as to work well with the classes of its own realm, not just those outside of it.

That's what I'm waiting for.

[Zoatibix]

You want me to tell you exactly how to do it, but admit that there is no way I can do it because two of the classes are missing? Don't be ridiculous.

Why don't you explain why my suggestion, based on what you know of RVR in WAR wouldn't work. That would be a reasonable debate.

[Aggrosh]

* Edited for Content *

[Kharlene]

You want me to tell you exactly how to do it, but admit that there is no way I can do it because two of the classes are missing? Don't be ridiculous.

Why don't you explain why my suggestion, based on what you know of RVR in WAR wouldn't work. That would be a reasonable debate.

You're sort of proving my point for me, you can't say that it wouldn't work, because there isn't enough information out there to say it won't work, while at the same time the game is in still testing for another 6 months so it's impossible to say anything is set in stone or anything Mythic does on game mechanic level just isn't possible.

As to proving you wrong... Why should I even bother? I'm not arguing it. Kind of pointless to argue something... that you don't intend to argue...

[Avien]

Okay people I am going to step in here because it seems that some of you haven't read Browncoat's post. Discussion of moderation in this thread will stop now. It may continue in this thread I have just created (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34231) as long as it stays in a constructive way. Accusing us of dictatorship, totalitarianism of any kind or drawing parallels between us and infamous dictators of history will not be accepted. I want you to understand that neither of us - not we, and not you - will prove their point by accusing the others of anything. Let's have a constructive debate. Bring in your grievances, let us know how you feel, but please do so in a non-insulting and constructive way. I think we can do that. Don't disappoint me, folks.

Oh, and I apologize beforehand for any PM I might not have answered. It happens, and I'm sorry.

- Avien

[Baron Khaine]

Lore does not translate into a game well. At all. This has been proven numerous times.

In Warhammer there is the Fluff, which is a Lore unto itself. The Tabletop, which if it went by the Lore, everyone would be an unstoppable killing machine. Lets look at a Chosen shall we? Chosens are supposed to be insane badasses in the Lore, in the Tabletop, there so-so. Why? Because overpowered units don't make a good game. Now we have WAR, which is picking and choosing the bits of the Lore that it wants, and is changing the other bits to make a good game. You RPers can be damned if you think that a large population of WAR will be roleplaying. You guys are the minority, and always will be, thats not to say that this game isn't for you, but how can you call for class mechanics or moves to be changed, just because they don't fit in with the Lore, even though they might seriously nerf that class if removed.

Seriously, think about this game as a whole, what percentage do you think are going to be Roleplayers? You guys get the short end of the stick, I know it, but you choose to Roleplay, no one forces you into it, so you have to deal with what is given to you, you don't decide it, because if we Roleplayers designed a game every character would be overpowered beyond belief.

In summary, Sticking to the Lore = Bad Game. Making there own Lore while roughly sticking to the Warhammer Lore = Good Game. Hell just look at WoW and how many times that Lores been changed, and to hell with any of you that say WoW is not a good game, it may not be to your tastes, but 9 million people think it is a good game, so in my opinion that makes it a good game.

[Kharlene]

I must side with shotgunbadger on this one, seriously, the most edited posts I see are mostly those of Xurre and/or other Shobhian'Sarath members. The mod team here just BLEEDS with BIASED. Why is that so ? For me the answer seems pretty obvious, this site is frequently visited by EA Mythic or GOA staff. As the loyal dogs (I would dare to say) as you seem to be, you will delete/alter all negative posts or complaints aimed (directly or not) at them, just to earn a bit of recognition. God save us if this is how internet forums are going to look. "Long live Totalitarianism !" ??

One thing that people seem to be failing to realize, is that if such topics are STILL being created, it must obviously be an issue to that part of the community. Labeling it as some "dead horse" (who the hell came up with that anyway ?) for your own convenience won't solve nothing, only spark more conflict and flames that as you stated, you are trying to avoid. I suggest some of you finally take these things into consideration, if that doesn't work then perhaps a few strong slaps in the forehead might solve the problem, then start again.

You should look up those threads, they are generally started by the same people over and over again. Namely, the ones you mention who are being berated. So it is not massive community starting them, but more specifically a small, specific community who visits these boards. And let us not forget the numerous thread hijackings in the DoK forums by a particular individual also mentioned in your post as being "picked on" by the mods. No, in those instances the individual often berated many over the lore who were having a discussion about something entirely different. My evidence is the DoK forums themselves, as the attacks which lead to back and forth attacks from either side were utterly needless, and often had nothing to with the thread. That is called a flame war as well as trolling, and such would continue to occur even when many would ask the individual in question to stop. It is less of a "conspiracy of the Mods appeasing the EAMythic developers" and more of a "repetitive inciting others and causing flame wars (regardless of whatever the individual's intention was) needlessly and never ceasing in doing so even when asked to stop it repeatedly".

Your own bias screams as well by your statement, just because you agree with certain individuals does not mean they are any more right or wrong than those of whom you disagree with; it is on both sides.

[Lord Tareq]

Baron, it isn't a roleplaying issue, its a Warhammer issue. Witch Elves are not assassins in warhammer. They are frenzied berserkers. Giving them stealth is akin to having playable Khorne Warriors with magical spells to blast enemies from afar: its not Warhammer.
That gameplay goes before lore I think we can all agree on, but just like the disciple healing in the name of Khaine, the Witch Elf stealthing is just so unneeded. There are many other ways to make Witch Elves more survivable without resorting to stealth, just like there were many ways to implement Disciples without conflicting warhammer lore.

However, mythic seems to add/change stuff not because its needed for gameplay or balance, but because they think its cool, and they seem happy to sacrifice big chunks of what makes warhammer warhammer for that.

In summary, Sticking to the Lore = Bad Game.

Err...why?:confused:

[Baron Khaine]

Sticking to the Lore = Bad Game, meant to say

Sticking exactly to the Lore = Bad Game.

All I can say in response Tareq is that Mythic is running everything past Games Workshop, so they must be happy with it, or it wouldn't make it into the game.

[Aggrosh]

You should look up those threads, they are generally started by the same people over and over again. Namely, the ones you mention who are being berated. So it is not massive community starting them, but more specifically a small, specific community who visits these boards. And let us not forget the numerous thread hijackings in the DoK forums by a particular individual also mentioned in your post as being "picked on" by the mods. No, in those instances the individual often berated many over the lore who were having a discussion about something entirely different. My evidence is the DoK forums themselves, as the attacks which lead to back and forth attacks from either side were utterly needless, and often had nothing to with the thread. That is called a flame war as well as trolling, and such would continue to occur even when many would ask the individual in question to stop. It is less of a "conspiracy of the Mods appeasing the EAMythic developers" and more of a "repetitive inciting others and causing flame wars (regardless of whatever the individual's intention was) needlessly and never ceasing in doing so even when asked to stop it repeatedly".

Your own bias screams as well by your statement, just because you agree with certain individuals does not mean they are any more right or wrong than those of whom you disagree with; it is on both sides.


My, oh my. You know, in school I learned about this little useful thing called "cause and effect". If there is this flaming and trolling you speak of, something must've gone terribly wrong at some point, perhaps there were taken the wrong precautions. I won't say anymore on that since Avien requested this be not the place to discuss this matter.

As to me siding with a small group of people, I will tell you that no matter how minor, narrow the group is itself, it still is a group, part of the community. Underestimate that, and you will have that very same group bite a nasty hole in your side, causing the hemorrhage (flamefest) you are describing now. Underestimate that, then return to reading the first few complaints I stated in my earlier post. Unfortunately, the only remaining actions that can be taken at the point mentioned are drastic, which would jeopardize the "friendly" position forums have attained.

[Lord Tareq]

All I can say in response Tareq is that Mythic is running everything past Games Workshop, so they must be happy with it, or it wouldn't make it into the game.

True, but WAR does not affect Warhammer, and so (just like the novels) they may take some liberties. Its up to Mythic themselves to stay true to the Warhammer background, or go the Dan Abnett road and make inexcusable changes.
The latter seems to be happening, and thats what we are trying to debate about, which isn't easy with several Kharlene-like fanboys who jump on any topic wherein these issues are being brought up, not to mention the zero-tolerance moderation on this subject.

[shotgunbadger]

You should look up those threads, they are generally started by the same people over and over again. Namely, the ones you mention who are being berated. So it is not massive community starting them, but more specifically a small, specific community who visits these boards. And let us not forget the numerous thread hijackings in the DoK forums by a particular individual also mentioned in your post as being "picked on" by the mods. No, in those instances the individual often berated many over the lore who were having a discussion about something entirely different. My evidence is the DoK forums themselves, as the attacks which lead to back and forth attacks from either side were utterly needless, and often had nothing to with the thread. That is called a flame war as well as trolling, and such would continue to occur even when many would ask the individual in question to stop. It is less of a "conspiracy of the Mods appeasing the EAMythic developers" and more of a "repetitive inciting others and causing flame wars (regardless of whatever the individual's intention was) needlessly and never ceasing in doing so even when asked to stop it repeatedly".

Your own bias screams as well by your statement, just because you agree with certain individuals does not mean they are any more right or wrong than those of whom you disagree with; it is on both sides.

Actually, if you look at most posts since the mods posted a "Guy's knock it off", it normally goes like this: On topic posting, Off topic joke about lore, one of my guild responding in jest as well, someone going "LOL UR BEATIN A DEAD HORSE", second person being punished, first getting nothing.

[Browncoat-WHA]

Seriously, folks. We've asked politely, we've made a thread for discussion, and now I'm going to be blunt.

Further discussion of moderation policy in this thread will be met with infractions, regardless of your opinion. There is new information and ideas based upon the original post which is why this thread is open right now.

You have a place to discuss it further and give us constructive feedback if you want. But keep it out of this thread and lose the insults, please.

[Ayetalam]

I like the new lore because it makes Witch Elves different from Choppas Marauders. Here is why.

In WAR, Choppas have a mechanic called Berserk. Choppas are the ones that go berserk with a frenzy and go chop chop. So due to making classes different, no more berserk for Witch Elves. Choppas also have a sprint ability purely for closing distance, with no AP drawback, so Witch Elves no longer have that option.

Marauders, their ability is to pull the enemy to them, which is pretty much the same thing as shadowstepping/leaping to them but in reverse. Its actually even better because they can pull the enemy into the group where they can get spiked with damage and die in seconds.

Whats left for the witch elf now that berserking, pulling/inverse leaping, and sprinting is no longer available to the Witch Elf? Stealth. Every other possible option that has been given interferes with how another MDPS class uses it, so it would be just a repeat and thus lowering the difference in playstyle between the choppa and witch elf.

Now to go more in-depth on why I say I like the new lore more. Because it fits with what Warhammer online is offering, it fits with their story,their interpretation, their view of the Warhammer World. The Warhammer TT Lore is so open ended, and open to interpretation, that changes like these don't destroy the setting, or anything, they alter it slightly for a very specific area of it. I personally see nothing destroyed with the Dark Elf or Warhammer setting, all I see is a improvement/alteration to the specific role of the witch elf.

And yes Xurre, I never said that the current lore was the same as the TT lore and I have always said there is a difference and that it is a seperate lore, that is not 100% connected. Thats why I am so open and "uncaring" to the lore changes, because its not changing TT lore, its not rewriting your Armybooks stacked next to your monitor, they are affecting the Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning lore. If you can fine me an armybook or lore book from GW that is called "Warhammer: Age of Reckoning" or any form of that, then I will agree. Treat this as a supplement or an alternate story. Its not the main story, its a story based on it. It will never be 100% to the lore, maybe not even 90%. Thre will always be problems that you will find that will urk you and make you go "THATS NOT IN THE LORE". Well, its in the AoR lore. Now if they took the entire AoR lore, and completely rewrote all the armybooks, went on a crusade and burned all the old armybooks, then i would see it as going too far. But GW allowing Mythic to have a bit of say on how the lore works, and Mythic using that allowance to make the lore fit with their vision, their gameplay, and their story, then its seriously not that big of a deal. If you dont like this "novel" of the Warhammer world, don't "read" it. Or play it for a while till it bugs yo uand leave.

Also by now anything LORE related will NOT be changed. They woul dhave to go through every quest, every story, every popup to make sure that its changed there, which would waste a lot of time that could be put ot better use making the game play right, be balanced, and work.

Stealth, well even if most people hate it, or it doesn't fit the WE lore, is most likely going to stay, since its the only option that the other 2 mdps classes don't have which they can make unique to the WE. Cause Gameplay/Mechanics are ALWAYS > Lore, and if you don't know that by now, look at every other freaking MMO on the planet. Hell even the LOTRO lore has been altered, changed, and for the good of the success of the MMO.

[shotgunbadger]

The problem is 'Frenzy' can work different then 'Berserk', and Mythic knows that, it's a smart company. 'Berserk' only makes Choppas tougher, Frenzy could make WE's faster, lower recharge times, better dodge, etc.

[Lhel]

I'm in no way a fan of giving Witch Elves stealth, limited or not. I would however say that using:

The Prince turned to see several of the Dark Elf witches racing toward his formation. They had approached stealthily, sneaking between foliage and rock using the chaos of Calumel's ruins as a diversion. as a "proof" there will be stealth in the game is stretching it.

Even Khorne would have the sense to employ common war tactics, the "charge headlong into the middle of the waiting army" just isn't always the best approach. This could just as easy be referring to a simple flanking manoeuvre, I do not believe there is a rule stating that if you are a witch elf or a follower of Khorne that you are required to scream at the top of your lungs at the moment you see an enemy. :rolleyes:

From what I gather there is testing of a stealth system for the Witch Elfs and Witch Hunters. For the Witch Hunter I can imagine it would be feasible to use a short limited stealth. For the Witch Elf I would really hope another solution is found. A headless charge, an acrobatic jump; hell even a anime style teleporting jump would be better, something along the lines of the rogue's shadow step in WoW... Whatever else you can think of, just not stealth.

I really do hope Witch Elfs get to keep as much of their orginal lore feel as possible, they are not mindless killers, nor would I think them stupid. It does transfer to the TT game in this case, if you charge straight ahead mindlessly at the enemy you will be lead astray and easily killed. If you wait for the right moment and charge the right place you slaughter your enemy to a man and Khaine is one proud husband.

I'd wait for this beta cycle to finish, this is currently a pretty hot topic which I'm quite sure Mythic is very aware of. They have been open to a large degree with major changes to the mechanics. I'd hope they chose to comment on this subject soon enough, the question will be raised until they make it crystal clear what their view is I imagine. Even after that I would think there will be reactions, all depending upon what that statement is.

[Chosen of the Raven]

The problem is 'Frenzy' can work different then 'Berserk', and Mythic knows that, it's a smart company. 'Berserk' only makes Choppas tougher, Frenzy could make WE's faster, lower recharge times, better dodge, etc.

It could be very similiar (I know some don't like WoW comparisons, but rogues are a great example for this case too) to Adrenaline Rush, giving you massive AP regen for a short time and possibly unlocking some extra jumping and dodging abilities to make you harder to hit.

[Dukha]

I'll keep this short.

Take the WoW rogue as an example. As things stand now that class is very effective in the "PvP that matters". Why? Because it deals great damage, has very nice stuns and is very hard to kill.

Thats it folks! Turns out that for long drawn out PvP battles survivability is a deciding factor. Blizzard actually added more surviability to the Rogue because they felt that the career laked in that department. Same with Mages by the way. At any rate, buffing Stealth was not the way but adding other abilities that had nothing to do with stealth. Then it was the community I believed that figuerad out what specc was the only real option for PvP at a high level as it offered the maximum amount of survivability along with DPS capacity. Stealth never figured into this. Even the "oh so powerful" Stealth that is the WoW Rogues trademark.

I don't have to go to lore reasons to scream "NO WAY" when it is being suggested that stealth is a core function of the Witch Elf. I go to gameplay first and lore second.

[Oak]

I'll keep this short.

Take the WoW rogue as an example. As things stand now that class is very effective in the "PvP that matters". Why? Because it deals great damage, has very nice stuns and is very hard to kill.

Thats it folks! Turns out that for long drawn out PvP battles survivability is a deciding factor. Blizzard actually added more surviability to the Rogue because they felt that the career laked in that department. Same with Mages by the way. At any rate, buffing Stealth was not the way but adding other abilities that had nothing to do with stealth. Then it was the community I believed that figuerad out what specc was the only real option for PvP at a high level as it offered the maximum amount of survivability along with DPS capacity. Stealth never figured into this. Even the "oh so powerful" Stealth that is the WoW Rogues trademark.

I don't have to go to lore reasons to scream "NO WAY" when it is being suggested that stealth is a core function of the Witch Elf. I go to gameplay first and lore second.

I agree. Well said.

[shotgunbadger]

I'll keep this short.

Take the WoW rogue as an example. As things stand now that class is very effective in the "PvP that matters". Why? Because it deals great damage, has very nice stuns and is very hard to kill.

Thats it folks! Turns out that for long drawn out PvP battles survivability is a deciding factor. Blizzard actually added more surviability to the Rogue because they felt that the career laked in that department. Same with Mages by the way. At any rate, buffing Stealth was not the way but adding other abilities that had nothing to do with stealth. Then it was the community I believed that figuerad out what specc was the only real option for PvP at a high level as it offered the maximum amount of survivability along with DPS capacity. Stealth never figured into this. Even the "oh so powerful" Stealth that is the WoW Rogues trademark.

I don't have to go to lore reasons to scream "NO WAY" when it is being suggested that stealth is a core function of the Witch Elf. I go to gameplay first and lore second.

A big QFT, as an old Rogue player I remember the days when everyone said "Oh u have Stealth ur fine" as if it didn't dissapear as soon as we open combat, this will do nothing to help WEs.

[Ayetalam]

I don't have to go to lore reasons to scream "NO WAY" when it is being suggested that stealth is a core function of the Witch Elf. I go to gameplay first and lore second.

Woah, who said it was a core mechanic? If its just a gap closer, it is in no way a main mechanic. Their main mechanic is called Frenzy or Bloodlust, i dunno in recent videos the skills say bloodlust on them aswell as frenzy so no clue if its faulty skill text or not. Anyways, just because they have stealth, doesn't mean they have to use it, or its a main mechanic.

Also when I said Berserking, i didnt mean their mechanic, i meant that in general thats what Choppas do, they berserk, sprint in chop away and do damage, berserking increases their toughness and damage. So that style of play can no longer be repeated for another MDPS class without it being just the same class with a new model. So really, the options for the Witch Elves were limited from the beginning. Apparently No Stealth didnt work out, because obviously this is a recent change that means since the witch efl went in till now, they were trying to do it without stealth, so resorting to stealth means that the witch elf really needs it.

Thing is, the WoW stealth is nothing like the WAR stealth, i mean totally different cooldowns, durations, and probably distance at which the WE is visible.

[bayle3]

Lore does not translate into a game well. At all. This has been proven numerous times.

In summary, Sticking to the Lore = Bad Game. Making there own Lore while roughly sticking to the Warhammer Lore = Good Game. Hell just look at WoW and how many times that Lores been changed, and to hell with any of you that say WoW is not a good game, it may not be to your tastes, but 9 million people think it is a good game, so in my opinion that makes it a good game.

first off, its obvious that you dont care for lore. i personally dont see why a company would buy the rights to lore if they didnt intend to use it properly. i know some changes have to be made to make a game work, but if you are changing them simply to avoid having to do something else, that kinda reeks of laziness. if they wanted assassins, they shouldve made it so, and just named the working model they had whatever the appropriate name would have been.

about wow, theres so much i could say about that game. nothing in that game makes sense, even within itself. i forgave lore breaks they had there at launch, but they continued to trash the lore they changed in the first place. you eventually get to a point where it ceases to stop even being what made it warcraft to begin with.following that line of thought, nothing has deterred them from digging into past lore and adding to what exists, further complicating matters. about the 9 million, there is also other factors with the numbers that wow throws out there, i dont even want to get into those, it will only be taken as bashing, but its not. i have played wow, and it has changed how people will look at how other games should be. i also didnt want mythic to design a wow 2, they made specific claims, the stealth moniker... those, no matter what anyone will say, were designed to pick at wow's player base (former or current) that was not happy with how pvp worked in wow. i and many others fell into that crowd, i wouldnt have even given this game another look if i had thought it was just more of the same old, same old. i couldve stayed and played wow, and resigned myself to the fact that nothing was ever going to be better, and never expect more.

in summary, theres no need for this lore break. there were many others ways to avoid it, for whatever reason, mythic decided to go another way. noone can reasonably say to not expect more from future developments , this is what is killing the gaming industry as a whole. noone is willing to break the norm. just because someone wishes to see certain things in a game doesnt mean that their thoughts and ideas are trivial.

[Hive]

Also when I said Berserking, i didnt mean their mechanic, i meant that in general thats what Choppas do, they berserk, sprint in chop away and do damage, berserking increases their toughness and damage. So that style of play can no longer be repeated for another MDPS class without it being just the same class with a new model. So really, the options for the Witch Elves were limited from the beginning. Apparently No Stealth didnt work out, because obviously this is a recent change that means since the witch efl went in till now, they were trying to do it without stealth, so resorting to stealth means that the witch elf really needs it.


The Choppa's gimmick is to get in, stay in, and beat someone down with Berserking as their activated ability to increase damage output and take more hits for a short time. Cool, mechanic spoken for, frenzy needs to be different.

The Witch Elf should carry with her all the hallmarks of all elven armies-- high speed, high firepower, and extreme fragility. So why not go with abilities that let her close in fast, via speed boosts/ jumps/ etc, and get out fast-- a la the leap out ability she already has.

Ok, high speed taken care of, on to high firepower. Frenzy can be set up similar to the morale bar/ rage bar from WoW, as she does damage it fills up which in turn increases her damage output-- this represents her blood lust rising as she slaughters foes in the name of Khaine. This bar stays up until she's out of combat for a bit or is killed-- in other words the more damage she does the more dangerous she becomes.

Now, to complete the package we add in her low survivability which seems to be the problem in the first place. Check.

What do we get? A class that picks a target, dashes in to damage/kill it and (hopefully) gets back out before she is killed herself. When well played a terror on the battlefield, demolishing clothies and generally sowing destruction where ever she chooses, but when played poorly... a free-ish kill.

A bit of tweaking in the above design could include short duration snares/roots/stuns to let her pick (and pick apart) her targets (perhaps even short ranged ones like "scream of scoured souls-- roots target in terror for x seconds, range: x feet"), and if her survivability is still too much of a drawback a series of damage absorption shields activated at different levels of frenzy could represent her ability to shrug off wounds that would otherwise kill her if she wasn't so wrapped up in sending souls to Khaine.

So now we have a class that's similar in purpose to a Choppa (or any melee dps for that matter) yet different enough to justify itself, and we didn't have to resort to using stealth.


*edit* I forgot to mention that doing it this way sticks a lot closer to the IP as an added bonus.

[Ayetalam]

The Choppa's gimmick is to get in, stay in, and beat someone down with Berserking as their activated ability to increase damage output and take more hits for a short time. Cool, mechanic spoken for, frenzy needs to be different.

The Witch Elf should carry with her all the hallmarks of all elven armies-- high speed, high firepower, and extreme fragility. So why not go with abilities that let her close in fast, via speed boosts/ jumps/ etc, and get out fast-- a la the leap out ability she already has.

Ok, high speed taken care of, on to high firepower. Frenzy can be set up similar to the morale bar/ rage bar from WoW, as she does damage it fills up which in turn increases her damage output-- this represents her blood lust rising as she slaughters foes in the name of Khaine. This bar stays up until she's out of combat for a bit or is killed-- in other words the more damage she does the more dangerous she becomes.

Now, to complete the package we add in her low survivability which seems to be the problem in the first place. Check.

What do we get? A class that picks a target, dashes in to damage/kill it and (hopefully) gets back out before she is killed herself. When well played a terror on the battlefield, demolishing clothies and generally sowing destruction where ever she chooses, but when played poorly... a free-ish kill.

A bit of tweaking in the above design could include short duration snares/roots/stuns to let her pick (and pick apart) her targets (perhaps even short ranged ones like "scream of scoured souls-- roots target in terror for x seconds, range: x feet"), and if her survivability is still too much of a drawback a series of damage absorption shields activated at different levels of frenzy could represent her ability to shrug off wounds that would otherwise kill her if she wasn't so wrapped up in sending souls to Khaine.

So now we have a class that's similar in purpose to a Choppa (or any melee dps for that matter) yet different enough to justify itself, and we didn't have to resort to using stealth.


*edit* I forgot to mention that doing it this way sticks a lot closer to the IP as an added bonus.

I guess, but whats to say they didn't have it like that before, and it didn't work? I mean if we can come up with something easily, I doubt they couldn't think of this first. So I think this stealth thing is a last resort.

All those saying they need to put in assassins or put them in from the beginnin, how would they if they didn't want stealth in the beginning, they were shooting for no stealth, the made hte class, quests, etc, and publically announced it (this seals the deal for any class) so they can't change to assassin now, and they come to a last resort situation where they have to. so they do. If they are even testing it, it must have been okayed by GW too.

[Kharlene]

*EDITED for content*

[Zoatibix]

As to proving you wrong... Why should I even bother? I'm not arguing it. Kind of pointless to argue something... that you don't intend to argue...

Because you are on a discussion forum, sweetie. It is a place for debate. If you make a point or wish to contest somebody else's opion you have to defend it. You spend a lot of time typing for somebody who isn't bothered.

In one of your previous posts you said of WE "given how light-armoured of a class they are you can't expect them to take too many hits and weather well at all."

and " ...the class was dying too quickly in testing..."

WE are the glass-cannon of MDPS. They aren't meant to be able take many hits but their burst damage output is higher than, say a Choppa. That's what seperates her from the Choppa and Marauder. Or that's the way we've all assumed the lack of armour is balanced out. If it was stealth, then Mythic have being misleading us for many months.

Increasing their Dodge and MR would prevent them from taking those hits. When they do get hit, they go down. That's how WE are in the TT. This gives them more survivability but is sympathetic to their TT Lore. I'm not asking for it to be exactly the same - just a rough outline.

I then asked you to suggest how stealth would keep the WE alive once she drops stealth. That doesn't require you to be in Beta, just to use common sense and your previous MMO experience. You ignored this request.

I don't see how stealth does help her survive the battle. Sure, she can get to the target but I bet you that her DPS will have been nerfed due to her stealth. I think this because my previous experience has taught me that the clothies complain mightly and noisily about suddenly dying and them not being able to do a thing about it. And that's a fair point - it isn't much fun for them.

If they can see the Witch Elf coming they can prepare, their tanks can see the enemy coming and prepare, their support can see the WE coming and prepare. With Stealth that option goes away. See below for why she doesnt' die doing a head long solo charge.

Unfortunately to use stealth the WE is probably going to have to sneak around behind her target. In a big battle maybe confusion will make that easier but it will result in my glass-cannon DPS being further away (possibly out of range) from my support and tanks than I would be if I was playing a choppa. And if the enemy has any short ranged fast cast damage abilites I'm number one target of choice to get whalloped with them.

Since mythic are against people getting killed too quickly I wont' be taking that clothie apart before they and their tanks have time to react. I provide a slight distraction and some free reknown.

If I'm good I kill my target before I die. If I'm good and lucky I actually managed to leap backwards...further away from my own lines and deeper into enemy territory. Can I resealth at this point? Probably not, because that would be WoW level stealth. Do I have dots on me and a couple of annoyed ranged DPS and Support classes with me targetted? Probably. I die.

Now being a religious fanatic I don't mind from an RP perspective but from a practical perspective I'm corpse running and not contributing any Damage, which is my sole purpose on the battlefield.

In the mean time the Choppas and Marauders with lower DPS have far out-stripped my contribution. In doing so they also kept more targets on the battle field, and made the enemy healer's jobs harder.

If I attack from the front with high dodge and MR I'm much more likely to be supported by my own side. I'll have tanks, DoKs and other more sturdy DPSers going in with me. That multipies my own survivability. Even if I am picked out I'm in range of those lovely Zealots and Shaman who can keep me alive long enough for me to do my job.

Now that's logic and experience. If you can't be bothered not to respond by asking me to effectively break the NDA, please dont' bother.

All I want you to do is explain how the WE stays alive after stealth...and why those same mechanics could not have been used instead of adding an entire extra mechanic to her.

[Dukha]

Woah, who said it was a core mechanic? If its just a gap closer, it is in no way a main mechanic. Their main mechanic is called Frenzy or Bloodlust, i dunno in recent videos the skills say bloodlust on them aswell as frenzy so no clue if its faulty skill text or not. Anyways, just because they have stealth, doesn't mean they have to use it, or its a main mechanic.You are of course right that we dont know at this point if it is a core mechanic or not. However, based on your own reasoning regarding diversifying the melee DPS careers I fail to see how it can be anything else. And if indeed that is the route taken then not using Stealth sounds like a bad idea. And that is why I said core function.
Apparently No Stealth didnt work out, because obviously this is a recent change that means since the witch efl went in till now, they were trying to do it without stealth, so resorting to stealth means that the witch elf really needs it..And still you say that Witch Elfs don't have to use it, that it is not a core function?
Thing is, the WoW stealth is nothing like the WAR stealth, i mean totally different cooldowns, durations, and probably distance at which the WE is visible.I did say that despite the power of the WoW Rogues Stealth it is not what mainly gives that class its survivability. It lets them close with their enemy sure, start of with those powerful openers of theirs. Which admittedly back in the day could lock someone down from 100 to 0. But it wasnt and it isnt a hallmark of their survivability. Their growing health pools, massive dodge rates and powerfull cooldown abilities that make them immune to both magic and melee are. Now take a watered down, hard to use and highly limited stealth move and explain how that offers more survivability.

Anyways I like Hives suggestion.
I guess, but whats to say they didn't have it like that before, and it didn't work? I mean if we can come up with something easily, I doubt they couldn't think of this first. So I think this stealth thing is a last resort.If it didnt work I would say that they need to tweak the math some more. Then again I'm not a game developer so perhaps I'm missing some cruical aspect here. Allthough I do guess that the aspect isnt so much that a gameplay like the one proposed by Hive wouldnt work or was to hard to implement. It sounds like a marketing decision more than anything. The belief that Stealth sells copies and that diversity between the careers are very important.
Perhaps thats correct, perhaps Stealth do sell copies.
Personally I dont think it does.
Regarding the diversity, well what we have now is not only just one female/male choice for destruction tanks but also just one female option for melee DPS which is now being turned into a rogue like class. So for people that dont want to play darkelves but want to play tanks/melee DPS, those that want to play female avatars as melee DPS but not as a roguelike class, those that want to play a roguelike melee DPS but not as a female and so on will suffer from decisions like these. It seems very constrained to my mind. Sure, scrapping Stealth won't fix all that but atleast some of it.

Besides, its a friggin melee DPS class we are talking about. You get in there and do damage up close and personal. How much diversity is really needed? Would it be so bad if the Choppa and Witch Elf played pretty similarly?

[Veriag]

Because you are on a discussion forum, sweetie. It is a place for debate. If you make a point or wish to contest somebody else's opion you have to defend it. You spend a lot of time typing for somebody who isn't bothered.

In one of your previous posts you said of WE "given how light-armoured of a class they are you can't expect them to take too many hits and weather well at all."

and " ...the class was dying too quickly in testing..."

WE are the glass-cannon of MDPS. They aren't meant to be able take many hits but their burst damage output is higher than, say a Choppa. That's what seperates her from the Choppa and Marauder. Or that's the way we've all assumed the lack of armour is balanced out. If it was stealth, then Mythic have being misleading us for many months.

Increasing their Dodge and MR would prevent them from taking those hits. When they do get hit, they go down. That's how WE are in the TT. This gives them more survivability but is sympathetic to their TT Lore. I'm not asking for it to be exactly the same - just a rough outline.

I then asked you to suggest how stealth would keep the WE alive once she drops stealth. That doesn't require you to be in Beta, just to use common sense and your previous MMO experience. You ignored this request.

I don't see how stealth does help her survive the battle. Sure, she can get to the target but I bet you that her DPS will have been nerfed due to her stealth. I think this because my previous experience has taught me that the clothies complain mightly and noisily about suddenly dying and them not being able to do a thing about it. And that's a fair point - it isn't much fun for them.

If they can see the Witch Elf coming they can prepare, their tanks can see the enemy coming and prepare, their support can see the WE coming and prepare. With Stealth that option goes away. See below for why she doesnt' die doing a head long solo charge.

Unfortunately to use stealth the WE is probably going to have to sneak around behind her target. In a big battle maybe confusion will make that easier but it will result in my glass-cannon DPS being further away (possibly out of range) from my support and tanks than I would be if I was playing a choppa. And if the enemy has any short ranged fast cast damage abilites I'm number one target of choice to get whalloped with them.

Since mythic are against people getting killed too quickly I wont' be taking that clothie apart before they and their tanks have time to react. I provide a slight distraction and some free reknown.

If I'm good I kill my target before I die. If I'm good and lucky I actually managed to leap backwards...further away from my own lines and deeper into enemy territory. Can I resealth at this point? Probably not, because that would be WoW level stealth. Do I have dots on me and a couple of annoyed ranged DPS and Support classes with me targetted? Probably. I die.

Now being a religious fanatic I don't mind from an RP perspective but from a practical perspective I'm corpse running and not contributing any Damage, which is my sole purpose on the battlefield.

In the mean time the Choppas and Marauders with lower DPS have far out-stripped my contribution. In doing so they also kept more targets on the battle field, and made the enemy healer's jobs harder.

If I attack from the front with high dodge and MR I'm much more likely to be supported by my own side. I'll have tanks, DoKs and other more sturdy DPSers going in with me. That multipies my own survivability. Even if I am picked out I'm in range of those lovely Zealots and Shaman who can keep me alive long enough for me to do my job.

Now that's logic and experience. If you can't be bothered not to respond by asking me to effectively break the NDA, please dont' bother.

All I want you to do is explain how the WE stays alive after stealth...and why those same mechanics could not have been used instead of adding an entire extra mechanic to her.

Thank you Zoatibix

In a single post you have summed up the core arguments of the subject of this thread clearly and concisely.

This is not a lore is greater than game mechanic debate which some seem to have grabbed a hold of and won't let go. This is about game play design choices and how they will impact on the look, feel and play of a class and the game as a whole.

V.

[abr4]

I do not believe there is a rule stating that if you are a witch elf or a follower of Khorne that you are required to scream at the top of your lungs at the moment you see an enemy. :rolleyes:

Well...

There is. It's called "frenzy" in the tabletop.

(not sure if Khorne warriors have the frenzy rule though)

[Kopal]

Its NOT realy stealth in WAR.

There are two rvr clips, one with the witchhunter and then some one from the other side playing.
Somewhere in the video you can see the sneaking witchhunter from 30m distance ..
Its not a daoc stealth. You still see the silouette and of cause stealthing costs ap ...
and they don't have any big stealth atackts ..

Realy, i don't care abaout this stealth, it's not even an advantage because it costs ap, ap that you not have when start fighting ..

[Lord Tareq]

Its NOT realy stealth in WAR.

There are two rvr clips, one with the witchhunter and then some one from the other side playing.
Somewhere in the video you can see the sneaking witchhunter from 30m distance ..
Its not a daoc stealth. You still see the silouette and of cause stealthing costs ap ...
and they don't have any big stealth atackts ..

Realy, i don't care abaout this stealth, it's not even an advantage because it costs ap, ap that you not have when start fighting ..

Another good reason not to implement it. If its that useless its even less logical to sacrifice the Witch Elf feel for it.
Also ,we are not discussing here about how overpowered stealth is or is not, we are debating about how stealth does not fit them. Its like a new StarWars movie that has Wookies who suddenly speak perfect english and move around elegantly

[Zoatibix]

I did say that despite the power of the WoW Rogues Stealth it is not what mainly gives that class its survivability. It lets them close with their enemy sure, start of with those powerful openers of theirs. ...Their growing health pools, massive dodge rates and powerfull cooldown abilities that make them immune to both magic and melee are.


Exactly.

We know from what we've heard from the Dev's and seen on youtube that Choppas, Mutant Boys and Witch Elves already use different 'power buildng' mechanics.

Adding a charge ability to WE is not going to make them a carbon copy of the Choppa because the Choppa does the MDPS job with a whole other set of tools.

The Choppa has, presumably, higher HPs and definately much higher armour. Giving the Witch Elf the advantage of higher dodge and MR will make her feel different in survival terms, too.

If we are going to compare them to WoW classes I'd say that Choppa is roughly a Fury Warrior while the WE would be similar to a Rogue.

You can keep bashing a fury warrior but he has a big HP pool and lots of armour. The more you bash him the more dangerous he gets.

The Rogue is difficult to hit in the first place but every time you do hit him you take a much bigger chunk out of his health bar. He has damage spikes built from combo points.

Edit: Hmm...going into stealth uses up AP you say? So...by the time I've got to my target I have less killing power. Yeah...that sounds really great....:shock:

[pzykozis]

Exactly.

We know from what we've heard from the Dev's and seen on youtube that Choppas, Mutant Boys and Witch Elves already use different 'power buildng' mechanics.

Adding a charge ability to WE is not going to make them a carbon copy of the Choppa because the Choppa does the MDPS job with a whole other set of tools.

The Choppa has, presumably, higher HPs and definately much higher armour. Giving the Witch Elf the advantage of higher dodge and MR will make her feel different in survival terms, too.

If we are going to compare them to WoW classes I'd say that Choppa is roughly a Fury Warrior while the WE would be similar to a Rogue.

You can keep bashing a fury warrior but he has a big HP pool and lots of armour. The more you bash him the more dangerous he gets.

The Rogue is difficult to hit in the first place but every time you do hit him you take a much bigger chunk out of his health bar. He has damage spikes built from combo points.

Edit: Hmm...going into stealth uses up AP you say? So...by the time I've got to my target I have less killing power. Yeah...that sounds really great....:shock:

yeah, at the moment AP is drained every so often whilst in stealth meaning that it can only be used to close on people as anything else would just waste your AP to the point of making you inneffective once in combat, my displeasure with stealth and the witch elf is due to the fact that there are multiple alternatives to stealth and whilst they might be harder to implement. A higher passive dodge and parry skill which would of course then need to be balanced against all the classes accompanied by short duration buffs to these, and some sort of closing move, whilst hard would suit the witch elf perfectly without resorting to stealth.

Personally i always liked the witch elf (Used to collect Dark Elf army) and when they described her it seemed like an improved version of the combat rogue i played (pre TBC) which never used stealth at all as i had no real need for it, aside from warriors and PvE. Because of this i was really looking forward to playing a Witch Elf but because of the shifting focus of the witch elf, i understand that mythic (or is it that i trust them) would only implement stealth if they really had to especially since they stated they wanted no stealth in WAR. But, if the witch elf shifts focus such in the final product then i'll probably have to play sorcereress or disciple instead.

[Shalaa]

witch elf shifts focus such in the final product then i'll probably have to play sorcereress or disciple instead.

I saw this coming when the after I saw the *this is the guy that brought you stealth* blog, like yourself and you can ask anyone in our guild I have been voicing the same opinions about how you cmmot make stealth work in drawn out battles and many other point people have pointed out. I have played around 25 mmos maybe more.

Point being, within three days of the whole issue I had already changed from witch elf class to dok with sorceress as me alt.
Why you ask I did this? because I have yet to see any evidence that the said company will take onboard any suggestions here and they will just go and do what they like..

Do we have to keep pointing out the latest poll for drucii classes to prove my point, the witch elf class is at its lowest popularity ever and 4 of them 10 votes are from members of our guild (yes those who are complaining) Will they listen? I very much doubt it.

[abr4]

lol

Kharlene is probably the most awesome poster on these forums.

[Mictoman]

Are there actualy any proof of WE stealthing other then that beta journal?( i did not read the all of the replys so your free to call me lazy if it has been proven even further) It looks like the writer i is doing exactly what he/she is paid to do, makeing a loreish story. "They had approached stealthily, sneaking between foliage and rock using the chaos of Calumel's ruins as a diversion." that can also mean that WE is going to have some kind of "sprint" action or some other kind of diversion not nesecerly stealth, or it`s just a way of makeing the attack of the WE more storyish.
thats my point of weiw.

[Scion]

Are there actualy any proof of WE stealthing other then that beta journal?( i did not read the all of the replys so your free to call me lazy if it has been proven even further) It looks like the writer i is doing exactly what he/she is paid to do, makeing a loreish story. "They had approached stealthily, sneaking between foliage and rock using the chaos of Calumel's ruins as a diversion." that can also mean that WE is going to have some kind of "sprint" action or some other kind of diversion not nesecerly stealth, or it`s just a way of makeing the attack of the WE more storyish.
thats my point of weiw.

There have been video's and I'm sure if Paul hadn't already done a STEALTH IS NOT IN! podcast he would be doing a STEALTH IS AWESOME! one by now.

Also, no more angst guys, come on. If the WE stealth arguement has actually reached the point where posters have nothing more to contribute other than taking shots at other posters and their contributions, it's time to just do the whole 'nothing nice to say, say nothing at all' bit.

As much as I like seeing you all get your jollies off on angst. :-|

[Mictoman]

not to be a or something, but do you got a link to this "stealth" video?

[thetheory]

*EDITED for content*

[shotgunbadger]

*EDITED for content*

[abr4]

Also, no more angst guys, come on. If the WE stealth arguement has actually reached the point where posters have nothing more to contribute other than taking shots at other posters and their contributions

Ya, we need more ammo from the devs to keep shooting. And believe me as long as stealth is in for the Witch Elf, there will be more shooting.

[Dukha]

Ya, we need more ammo from the devs to keep shooting. And believe me as long as stealth is in for the Witch Elf, there will be more shooting.
Yup, count on it :twisted:
But as you say, we are running low on ammo at the moment so I atleast will just hang around ready to defend what I've already said (or possibly admit defeat...)

And no, I dont find thetheorys post worth adressing. Allthough the attempt at humour, if indeed that is what it is, was appreciated.

[Morelius]

Its unfortunate that the term "stealth" in mmorpgs actually means Invisibility. There is nothing "stealthy" about being in the middle of a an open area, with nothing to hide behind, in full sunlight, 3 metres in front of an enemy who cannot see you. That is invisitibility, pure and simple. Invisibility is magic. Witch Elves and witch hunters are not mages, they do not go invisible.

Stealth in the real sense of the word is actually doable, but it would involve showing some originality and not just cloning other mmorpgs. Make the character crouch, and when in shadows, or behind objects, make them harder to see, remove their name tag.

To get such characters, esp witch elves that are famous for being blood-loving, crazy, charge-in berserkers, in melee range in good time, they need to be creative, make a charge and dodge effect. Not the charge effect from say WoW that teleports the warrior, but a fast sprint, with an increased chance to avoid fire from their target. I am not even going to comment on the witch hunter carrying a lit torch and then being impossible to see...

Keep in mind also, they state that ranged dps is vulnerable up close, so their only chance against melee folk is to soften them up from range. Yes, there is the issue of melee getting to them, but to solve it by guaranteeing they pop up behind the ranged dps and kill them before they can respond might solve the melee's problem, but then create a whole new issue.

I think most are against it for a variety of reasons:

* Mythic: Definitely no stealth in the game, most people are against it, we are against it, no stealth, no stealth, no stealth.......... and then they put it in. They made this big deal about this pvp game different and made it clear one of the most hated elements of other mmorpgs would not rear its ugly head, then put it in as a very lazy "solution" - the "lets just copy" solution.

* Stealth/invisibility mechanics tend to attract a certain kind of person, famous for being griefers and being cowardly, those who seek the "I win" button. WoW rogues are famous for it, cheap mechanics attract cheap people imo.

* The lore issue - "Hey, we have these almost naked, pale white girls with big hair, who don't blend into their background, who drink blood laced with drugs which fills them with bloodlust and rage, before throwing themselves at the enemy and go berserk, that certainly sounds like a stealthy class! Lets make them hide from battle, sneak in invisible, pick out weak targets and slit your throat quietly from behind before running away"....
Contradiction much? It makes me believe that in their apparent disregard to lore and common sense, they probably seriously considered the Chosen as stealthers. Lore refinements and subtle altering is fine to make a good game, but this reverses lore, and goes against common sense.


* What next in relation to totally messing up / reversing lore? Archmages actually do not use any magic but are now tanks who practice sumo wrestling? What next in relation to pvp that they made clear previously? PvP is now going to be all about crowd control and they will copy WoW and make it so you only have control of your character 10% of any fight? This stealth possibility is understandably causing a lot of concern about mythic's treatment of the lore, and their promoted features that made them unique and enticing, both areas are now under threat. And before these get labelled gross exaggerations, look at exactly what the stealth/invisibility mechanic is doing. I am all for lore tweaking, slight alterations and adjustments to improve the play of a class, but changing a whole iconic class into another one (witch elves become assassins in TT terms) and an opposite one at that. The loudest, fastest, most crazy, thick of the action class to be made its opposite - into a sneaky, invisible, quiet, avoid battles and pick at lone targets at the edges is just so disappointing, suddenly my archmage = sumo wrestling tank idea isn't so far fetched now.

Yeah, its only beta, and its just a test to see how it goes, hopefully though, if enough sensible people speak up, both the people who actually like the Warhammer universe for lore reasons, and those who do not want rogue clones and pure invisibility and the kind of people that it attracts, then Mythic will actually seek to be creative to resolve the problem, look at the many good suggestions out there, and not resort to such mechanics that the vast majority are against for a variety of very good and reasonable reasons.

To those who do speak up, well done. To those who loved stealth in WoW, go play it. To those who don't care about the lore, why are you here if the warhammer universe doesn't interest you? Understand that many people here enjoy the warhammer universe, and others who have played other mmorpgs realise how lame stealth has become and don't want to see repeated mistake made because its easier to copy than to actually be original. I still believe Mythic will listen, and act accordingly, because of those who have the courage and speak up against what they believe to be a bad decision. Its better we speak up now, than remain quiet in fear of being labelled "whingers" and then they release a product that 85% of the pre-release fans are not impressed with.

[Shalaa]

*EDITED for content*

[Browncoat-WHA]

Seriously folks. This thread is only 7 pages and it has already received 1 infraction and at least 4 or 5 warnings. I'm really trying to be accommodating with this topic since there's a bit of new information, but you're not making it any easier.

Don't rise to the bait of a perceived flame. Use Report Post.

Don't flame someone for their opinion.

Don't be condescending. You can make your point without it.

Don't do these things, and this thread gets closed.

[Zoatibix]

I'm also suspicious of the idea that stealth is a new addition to the game and that other mechanics were tried first.

The Witch Elf being hinted at - sexually alluring, rogue combo points, stealthy ,female elf is very similar to the much derided Female Night Elf Rogue. I suspect Mythic have had this version of the WE planned for a long while.

Secondly, it seems very odd to make such a big thing about there being no stealth and then shove it into two classes so late in the day. I would have thought Mythic would have moved heaven and earth to keep it out of the game.

[Kharlene]

Because it makes far more sense that it is a recent addition than something long planned. The evasion buffs, the parry buffs, the dodge buffs, Ignore Pain, and the whole laundry list of things that the WE fans and/or Lorists made, I personally can only assume have long been tested. Why? Because a lot of those same elements are in DAoC, so you have to ask yourself: why wouldn't Mythic test something that is already in their own game? The answer is simple: they likely already have. But for whatever the reasoning, it just wasn't working in testing, it either didn't balance well with other classes, so dumbed it down or buffed it up, but it just wasn't coming out well - it could have been that it just wasn't even balancing out well within its own realm. Such things are possible.

But there is more to the equation than WEs themselves, which is the WH - do not forget they have stealth as well. Why? Likely for some balancing issues themselves, maybe their range wasn't cutting it enough, perhaps their close up attacks were too weak, perhaps they were just as fragile as the WEs (understandable, they are meant to mirror each other in some respects), it could be long reasoning as to why that we just do not have. And you never know, the WEs may not have been the problem at all. It could have been the WHs, but they need to put stealth somewhere in order to balance them out, and what better place than the WEs - their mirror?

And thus when looking at it like that, from a gameplay perspective it starts to make sense (at least to me). On a "lore" perspective, no obviously does not, but from a gameplay persepctive - yes, imo it can start to make sense.

The game mechanic that is somewhat like the WoW Rogues can be argued, but that somewhat falls flat on its face when putting into perspective that dual sword Rogues often cast off their stealth, as it was needlessly to them and would often charge right up to much like a Warrior and fight you head on. Sounds somewhat like a WE, no? But, balancing wise, even within WoW it was not there - namely because it was not the talents but also the gear, and apparently with the WE it is much the same - it did not balance well, you could change it then to make it work or the proper stats blah blah blah; well, if wasn't working in one game what makes you think it will work in this one? And thus, we are brought back to our current state of affairs.

Then putting all else into perspective previously mentioned, and it again, to me at least, on a gameplay level it starts to make sense, and the testing of stealth within beta, becomes more clear as a tacked on addition to their game mechanic than something that was always meant to be.

------

And lastly, Zoatibix, I can understand why Browncoat deleted my response to you because it was basically a flame created out of my irritation from being patronized by being called "sweetie". But I ask you to add this to your perspective as well. Did you ever think that reason why I find it needless to argue with you or "debate" with you was because I agree with you? Thus, think for a moment, if I agree with you, why would I want to argue with you? Obviously, you do not think as many things through as you think you do.

------

Thus in summary, do agree with giving WEs stealth? No. It does not make sense as what they initially represented within the constantly shifting "lore" WH, despite WAR being its own "lore" based on WHs. However, on a gameplay level due to all the reasoning I stated above, I can understand why they are testing it. Do agree with it? No. I can simply understand. Am I going to obsess over it continuously? No. That would be pointless, not because it is in testing and is not set stone, but because I can do without the headaches of something that has no true impact on my life and is simply within a game I want to play for fun; and if its for fun - why would want to ruin that fun by going berserk over what relatively has no tangible impact on me?

[Pangscar]

I saw this coming when the after I saw the *this is the guy that brought you stealth* blog, like yourself and you can ask anyone in our guild I have been voicing the same opinions about how you cmmot make stealth work in drawn out battles and many other point people have pointed out. I have played around 25 mmos maybe more.

Point being, within three days of the whole issue I had already changed from witch elf class to dok with sorceress as me alt.
Why you ask I did this? because I have yet to see any evidence that the said company will take onboard any suggestions here and they will just go and do what they like..

Do we have to keep pointing out the latest poll for drucii classes to prove my point, the witch elf class is at its lowest popularity ever and 4 of them 10 votes are from members of our guild (yes those who are complaining) Will they listen? I very much doubt it.

Last I checked thats what BETA is for. If it doesn't work according to the testers it will be taken out simple as that. So you ask will they listen? Yes they are and they will listen to the people who are actually playing and testing the mechanic IN GAME, rather then bow to a few people who haven't played the game. Thats how games are made.

[Aggrosh]

Call me strange if you want, but every video, Mythic produced or not, I don't take into heart what is said/showed in it. Never. Even the confirmed stuff by Mythic staff themselves. This is still BETA, and EVERYTHING is shifting/changing constantly in it.

However, some people seem to not realize that the people stating their dissatisfaction (at least Shobhian'Sarath members) with WE's having stealth don't seek to make another flamewar, "dead horse" or whatever falling under such categories. Most of these people pre-ordered the CE and have huge faith in this game. They are aware this is still beta, and only address, call out to Mythic to not include it in the game, posting their arguments on the way. Then come the "annoyed" people neglecting whatever they say, just because they wish not to discuss this topic anymore. Which often results in flames. Responses to flames can't really be constructive or positive, and there you start the vicious circle where people exchange flames and earn warnings. That is simply not the way to go with such topics.

Take this into consideration before anyone starts bashing the "lore whiners" again.

[shotgunbadger]

Honestly my issue is that we were NEVER TOLD about this stealth, infact they made the big deal of going "We're so special, we're not gonna have stealth!". Now it's "Oh, ahaha Stealth is in now".

Yea it's beta, but...it shouldn't even be in Beta, and to be honest I really doubt they'll remove it. If they do, however, I will be very proud of Mythic for actually listening to us customers.

[Kharlene]

Call me strange if you want, but every video, Mythic produced or not, I don't take into heart what is said/showed in it. Never. Even the confirmed stuff by Mythic staff themselves. This is still BETA, and EVERYTHING is shifting/changing constantly in it.

However, some people seem to not realize that the people stating their dissatisfaction (at least Shobhian'Sarath members) with WE's having stealth don't seek to make another flamewar, "dead horse" or whatever falling under such categories. Most of these people pre-ordered the CE and have huge faith in this game. They are aware this is still beta, and only address, call out to Mythic to not include it in the game, posting their arguments on the way. Then come the "annoyed" people neglecting whatever they say, just because they wish not to discuss this topic anymore. Which often results in flames. Responses to flames can't really be constructive or positive, and there you start the vicious circle where people exchange flames and earn warnings. That is simply not the way to go with such topics.

Take this into consideration before anyone starts bashing the "lore whiners" again.

That's from your perspective, from what I have seen, it comes from either side of the spectrum. I have seen particular members of that guild you mention (one most notably), needlessly start these "flame wars" themselves, regardless of whatever their intentions may have initially been. I did link an example of which in one post, but it got deleted, understandable sense it was somewhat going over the topic of Moderation when there was a thread on such in another forum. However, I can pull out plenty of examples of where the "Lorists" have started plenty of these "flame wars" themselves, and would be more than happy to PM them to you, if you really need the proof. And no, I am not saying it is just them, either, I am saying it is on both sides, because yes, I have seen plenty of the non-Lorists doing the same. It is on both sides. Just because you agree with their opinion does not absolve them from their own faulty actions. It is on all sides here. So, please, do not try to paint any side as being "innocent" here or pass them off as being the martyr of the Lorist cause or some such.

All that I ask is you put into perspective that the fault lies on both sides.

[Morelius]

Honestly my issue is that we were NEVER TOLD about this stealth, infact they made the big deal of going "We're so special, we're not gonna have stealth!". Now it's "Oh, ahaha Stealth is in now".

Yea it's beta, but...it shouldn't even be in Beta, and to be honest I really doubt they'll remove it. If they do, however, I will be very proud of Mythic for actually listening to us customers.

Yeah, thats one of my issues, is that they made a big deal about not having stealth in the game, then quietly put it in. Sure its beta and not in concrete, but the fact that a major appeal for many is being seriously considered to be reversed without explanation or apology is a bit disappointing.

I remember boasting to a mate who plays mmorpgs, "Warhammer online is going to have NO cheapass stealth/invisibility, and real pvp where you actually have control of your character. It looks great, not having to sit there unable to move until you are dead, and it should keep away a lot of cowardly griefer's with the no stealth!"
We both agreed this sounded very positive and a welcome change.

As far as this topic beating a dead horse, I disagree. If only one person spoke out against it, and everyone agreed but no one said anything, then Mythic would get the impression that only one person disagreed with their inclusion of stealth and its lore ruination. By a lot of people speaking against it, we are communicating exactly what the majority of the player base (pre-player base actually) are thinking. We all know its Beta and not guaranteed to remain, but that is EXACTLY why people are speaking up NOW, before its too late to make a positive change. As my parents will tell me all the time, its harder to erase a mistake after its been given birth (released) :???:
The personal flames however, are disappointing to see.



Hey, we have these almost naked, pale white girls with big hair, who don't blend into their background, who drink blood laced with drugs which fills them with bloodlust and rage, before throwing themselves at the enemy and go berserk, that certainly sounds like a stealthy class! Lets make them hide from battle, sneak in invisible, pick out weak targets and slit your throat quietly from behind before running away"....

[Ayetalam]

The problem is, Mythic isn't listening that much to the out-of-beta customers, esepcially on gameplay issues, because you really have no clue how it works in the game, or how bad or good it truely is. Its apparently gone through 3 phases of testing and hasn't been removed, so it seems to be working for everyone in beta, who are the ones they listen to.

Yes they read these forums, but primarily the General Gameplay forums. Josh didn't even know of the Blood Priest/DoK topics until it was pointed out to him by someone like 1 week before the class was announced.

Maybe Adam reads these forums, but they probably only take 1-2% to heart, and dismiss the rest, because you obviously haven't played the game, and if you did, you wouldn't be posting about it here, but on the beta boards instead.

So yes in a way if you don't talk about it you won't be heard, but then again, you still aren't heard because those you want to listen, aren't even here.

[Ganymed]

The problem is, Mythic isn't listening that much to the out-of-beta customers, esepcially on gameplay issues, because you really have no clue how it works in the game, or how bad or good it truely is. Its apparently gone through 3 phases of testing and hasn't been removed, so it seems to be working for everyone in beta, who are the ones they listen to.



cant break the nda, but really, no ....

[Zoatibix]

I agree it is possible for them to have tried something else first. I just don’t think they did, that’s all. Witch Elves’ striking similarity to the NElf Rogue leads me to believe that they chose the Witch Elf for her wonder bra, not her iconic status in Druchii lore.



WH have a short ranged weapon and better armour, which leads me to surmise that they were actually given stealth to balance up the sides. A reasonable action in itself.


You mention of Dual Sword Rogues in WoW casting off stealth and fighting in mass PVP without it– which I think we both agree is what Witch Elves should be in an ideal world.


I think that Mythic could have balanced this in WAR…


Blizzard allowed high level enchants to be put on low level characters, massively inflating the power of low level Rogues due to the way WoW’s attribute system works. At the other end of the spectrum PvEers could grind instances and have a big advantage over those who did PvP 24/7 or had newly arrived at their level. WAR has soft stat caps and the ability to earn good gear through multiple routes.


Blizzard pretty much tacked PvP onto WoW as an afterthought and took little initial account of the significant variation in racial bonuses. On the other hand, WAR has been built from the ground up with RvR as its focus. Mythic have way more experience in the field; these are the guys who made DAoC which I’m told was leagues ahead of WoW in terms of group pvp balance.



I am sure they have looked at other MMOs and taken notes on what they did right and wrong.


That’s why I’m surprised that Mythic couldn’t balance WE and WH without putting stealth into the game, and dubious that they could have come so far down the development road and only just realised they couldn’t balance it without stealth.


Tacking it on at this late stage could account for the latest delay, of course. Since they now have to re-balance all the other classes to account for a mechanic that was ‘definitely not going to be there.’ That doesn’t give me a lot of confidence in the designers forward planning skills.


In conculsion, while I agree that we can’t at this stage know what has gone on in the design process, I do disagree that they couldn’t have balanced WE’s in the RvR environment.


Aylt “Its apparently gone through 3 phases of testing and hasn't been removed, so it seems to be working for everyone in beta, who are the ones they listen to.”

Mmm….if you don’t mind me saying so that’s a very tricksie statement. Neither of us can comment on whether or not it has been actually in the Beta for the last three phases without breaking NDA, nor whether it is working for everyone or not. So everybody else has to take that statement at face value and assume Stealth is working fine, when it may or may not be.

And I really don't think it fair to tell effectively non-Beta testers that they can't argue with you because you are in beta and they arent'.

Poor show, sir. Poor show.

[Feigro]

Honestly my issue is that we were NEVER TOLD about this stealth, infact they made the big deal of going "We're so special, we're not gonna have stealth!". Now it's "Oh, ahaha Stealth is in now".

Yea it's beta, but...it shouldn't even be in Beta, and to be honest I really doubt they'll remove it. If they do, however, I will be very proud of Mythic for actually listening to us customers.


That's the thing. There's absolutely no reason tell us until they actually decide it's going to be a feature of the class. If these videos hadn't popped up, and say in a month from now they decide to scrap stealth. It's a non-issue. They would have never said anything and none of us (you/fans, I personally don't care) would have ever cared.

We would have heard at some point in the future, if at all, "Oh yeah, they tried stealth in beta once. Didn't work though" and the reaction would be "wtf? well thank god they didn't keep it".

I highly doubt the reaction would be, "Wtf? HOW DARE THEY NOT TELL US ABOUT THAT!!"

Had we yet to be tipped off, I'm sure eventually, at some point, stealth for these classes would have been brought up by Mythic. Just as many things have that tend to change a bit. Like Mounted combat. It was suggested, it fell off the press wagon, then they came right out and said no Mounted combat.

We don't need, nor deserve, much more than that. If it makes it in the game then it's worth telling people about. If it doesn't make it past testing then frankly there's no reason to bring it to our attention since no one that isn't in beta can lend an appropriate perspective to the issue. Save for the lore part - which as I've suggested before - is (seemingly, from this perspective) a flaw in the WE's overall design in the first place. They're making a Rogue, as opposed to some kind of Berzerker.

[Xurré]

Sorry for the long post, all. Trying to catch up with several days worth of replies here.

As to the topic, if this is true, then like others, it's in beta. The beta testers are certainly testing this mechanic and if it is proven to be negatively effective on the gameplay and the "feel", it will probably be changed or tweaked. I played "rogue" like classes and understand why people are turned off by previous exposure to the stealth m echanic - however, I reserve judgment until I actually see how it works.
It’s in beta, yes. But are they testing the mechanics in beta? Or are they also testing whether the class feels like a Warhammer Witch Elf? We’re being continuously told that most people don’t care about the lore, so how can they truly decide whether the class feels right?

What I want to know is: who is actually making certain that the class feels like a Witch Elf? Because I’ve got the strong impression that this isn’t really happening in beta and I’ve seen nothing from either EA Mythic or Games Workshop that convince me that they are (quite the contrary in fact).



Just as an added personal note, Dark Elves have been shafted. Shafted hard. And I'll sign any petition, go to any picket line, etc. to help Mythic change their minds. But I won't start a riot. And I hope none of you will either. ;)
If you have any ideas on how to get EA Mythic to change their minds then I’d love to hear them. Because I’m all out of them (beyond doing what I do and hope that it does some good).



Lore does not translate into a game well. At all. This has been proven numerous times.
Can we stop with those arguments, please? Because the only ones still thinking like that are the ones who don’t have any issue with the changes to begin with.

It’s been said before and I’ll say it again; it’s not about directly translating the lore into the game verbatim or anything. It’s about preserving the style of the setting, the flavour of the classes. And Witch Elves do not sneak around people hoping to get an attack in from behind. If there’s a Witch Elf you’ll know it from her maniacal screaming and from her storming at you in a straight line from wherever she is.

And that can be translated just perfectly into the game and has been in numerous ways in numerous games in the past. So I don’t see why EA Mythic would be unable to.

All I can say in response Tareq is that Mythic is running everything past Games Workshop, so they must be happy with it, or it wouldn't make it into the game.
I know that everything goes through Games Workshop, but they seem to be far more interested in ensuring the visual style of Warhammer, and not the actual content. Which makes sense considering that they’re selling miniatures and not really the lore.

I don’t think we can trust Games Workshop to maintain the flavour of the setting anymore (beyond visually).



I like the new lore because it makes Witch Elves different from Choppas Marauders.
Uh, Witch Elves already are quite different from Choppas and Marauders; there’s no need to introduce any unfitting game mechanics to make it so. Besides, making Witch Elves like Assassins isn’t really helping to make them unique in the setting (it just makes them like Assassins).

Choppas are armoured brutes who storm into combat and start smashing things until there’s nothing left standing, a brute-force class that relies on being tough enough to take a fair amount of punishing. A Witch Elf on the other hand is an agile fighter jumping at you and doing damage before darting away again; they’re dancers where Choppas are jackhammers. Something that’s best represented by leaping in and out of combat constantly, a class that seems to be all over the place, that’s hard to pin down and hard to hit because they more around so fast. A Choppa is a force of destruction; a Witch Elf is a frenzy of movement.

Marauders, their ability is to pull the enemy to them, which is pretty much the same thing as shadowstepping/leaping to them but in reverse. Its actually even better because they can pull the enemy into the group where they can get spiked with damage and die in seconds.
Considering that you see this as the Marauder’s ability and some speed boost as the Choppa’s ability… what would you say if the Marauder had a charge or such to close distance as well? Just a random thought.

Whats left for the witch elf now that berserking, pulling/inverse leaping, and sprinting is no longer available to the Witch Elf?
Why would leaping (and what is “inverse leaping” anyway) be no longer available for Witch Elves? What I see working very well for Witch Elves is some kind of boosts to their jumping ability, maybe something similar to Combat Jumping in CoH (allows you to leap larger distances and gave some dodge-type protection too).

As for what else is left beyond that? Well, we’ve talked about evasion; making them just very hard to hit in combat. We’ve talking about some kind of shadow-step ability I think (not that I really understand what that means; not enough WoW for me it seems), we’ve talked about a charge that’s more of a teleport than a speed boost, or a change that’s an automatic movement straight to your target. We’ve talked about abilities which allow you to change position during combat (leap over/circle around the enemy quickly with the press of a button, to be immediately followed by a positional attack so that you can get around them and attack them in the back in one go), etc, etc.

Stealth is far from the only available option left.

Besides, if there aren’t any other ways to differentiate melee classes then I guess we’re not getting new races in the expansion since everything will already have been done.

And yes Xurre, I never said that the current lore was the same as the TT lore and I have always said there is a difference and that it is a seperate lore, that is not 100% connected. Thats why I am so open and "uncaring" to the lore changes, because its not changing TT lore, its not rewriting your Armybooks stacked next to your monitor, they are affecting the Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning lore.
But it’s the Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning game that we’re supposed to be playing day in and day out for years on end. It’s WAR that’s in many ways to become our new home now and again during our spare time, our total hobby experience. So I want that to be as perfect as it can be.

And to be honest I don’t really care anymore what Games Workshop doesn’t and doesn’t do with the Tabletop rules/lore; as that’s not why I’m here. I’m here for WAR and WAR was promised to give me a Warhammer experience.

Woah, who said it was a core mechanic?
Who said it isn’t? Now perhaps it’s a skill in one of the Mastery trees for the Witch Elf; that’d at least be something as that at least proves that the Witch Elf is (supposed to be) viable without using stealth. Still wouldn’t be right to give it to them, but I’d feel a lot better as I’d know that we be equally useful and have a roughly equally easy time if we ignore stealth altogether.

But for some reason I’ve got the strong sense that it is a Core skill in the game. After all, why would they add it in the first place if the class didn’t need it? If they need it then the class will probably not play very well without it and will be balanced around the fact that it has the ability. For instance, they might put the snare skill, which is so vital to melee classes going after ranged classes, under a “must be stealthed” requirement.



What do we get? A class that picks a target, dashes in to damage/kill it and (hopefully) gets back out before she is killed herself. When well played a terror on the battlefield, demolishing clothies and generally sowing destruction where ever she chooses, but when played poorly... a free-ish kill.
Indeed, that’s how I envision Witch Elves playing too, which is quite different from how the Choppa and the Marauder have been described (and quite different from a stealth-needing rogue type class).

And it’s been done before with great success too. Again, I already mentioned it briefly above, in City of Heroes one could play a Super Reflexes Scrapper with something like Combat Jumping. Extremely fun to play, jumping in and taking care of business, and then jumping back out to re-assess the situation before jumping in again. Very fragile in that they might be hard to hit, but if they get hit things quickly go sour. In many way I think the ideal gameplay for Witch Elves and something that WAR doesn’t have (and would fit quite well in WAR).



Yes they are and they will listen to the people who are actually playing and testing the mechanic IN GAME, rather then bow to a few people who haven't played the game.
I just want to re-iterate, again, that it’s not about the mechanics; so what good is it from our viewpoint that the mechanics are being tested? Might as well say “well, they’re looking after that the graphics look nice, so don’t worry about it being a fun game”.



Had we yet to be tipped off, I'm sure eventually, at some point, stealth for these classes would have been brought up by Mythic.
But the cat is most definitely out of the bag now. That might not have been their intention, but it is and they should deal with it and give the community proper information on where things are with regards to stealth, why they have chosen that instead of other mechanics and how come they don’t consider it breaking the style of the class since it so clearly is. At the very least I like to hear the chance that it’ll be taken out.

If we have to wait until it is too late then it’ll be too late. But we’re letting them know now that it is wrong and shouldn’t be in and the longer that we’re left in uncertainty the worse it’s going to get.

They’ve also stated that they’re dedicated to making the game as good as it can be. Well, I’d like them to prove it by showing that they dare and redesign out the stealth mechanics from these classes even if it means that it’ll take longer to release the game.

Yes, I know that’s not how things work, but we’ve been holding strong that stealth is the wrong mechanics, style-wise, for the class ever since the rumours of stealth first started rearing. And I don’t think that they can claim ignorance again like they did with the Disciple.



- Xurré

[Pangscar]

I just want to re-iterate, again, that it’s not about the mechanics; so what good is it from our viewpoint that the mechanics are being tested? Might as well say “well, they’re looking after that the graphics look nice, so don’t worry about it being a fun game”.


- Xurré

Well sorry to burst your bubble but as far as the the success of the game and whether or not stealth will be in game DOES depend on the mechanics working or not with the rest of the game. So yeah you can cry all day about your precious lore being broken but when its all said and done the final decision will be made based on the beta testers conclusions of the stealth mechanic and NOT any form of protesting by a handful of lore fans on a website.

Basically what you are saying is "I don't care what the testers say I KNOW better than anyone, therefor it shouldn't be in the game" Fortunately for us thats not how good video games are made.

[Hive]

Well sorry to burst your bubble but as far as the the success of the game and whether or not stealth will be in game DOES depend on the mechanics working or not with the rest of the game. So yeah you can cry all day about your precious lore being broken but when its all said and done the final decision will be made based on the beta testers conclusions of the stealth mechanic and NOT any form of protesting by a handful of lore fans on a website.

Basically what you are saying is "I don't care what the testers say I KNOW better than anyone, therefor it shouldn't be in the game" Fortunately for us thats not how good video games are made.

I'd love for you to tell me about a pvp-oriented rpg where a stealth mechanic for a class didn't cause more problems than it fixed. The lore aspect of it's inclusion is just an added point against it.

[Pangscar]

I'd love for you to tell me about a pvp-oriented rpg where a stealth mechanic for a class didn't cause more problems than it fixed. The lore aspect of it's inclusion is just an added point against it.

We are talking about WAR and the stealth mechanic being tested in BETA. I don't give a rats how it worked in other games, it has nothing to with WAR or how it might work in WAR.

[Xurré]

I don't give a rats how it worked in other games, it has nothing to with WAR or how it might work in WAR.
Fortunately for us thats not how good video games are made.


- Xurré

[Pangscar]

Fortunately for us thats not how good video games are made.


- Xurré


No actually, they see what did and didn't work in past games and improve upon it. Just because you didn't like how it worked in other games doesn't mean it won't/can't in this one. That quote was pertaining to my personal feelings about stealth and not how I think games should/shouldn't be made. Nice try though. If you want to discredit what I say try using it in the proper context next time.

[Xurré]

They see what did and didn't work in past games and improve upon it.
You do know that this directly contradicts what I quoted you saying in the previous post, right? Unless, of course, you're saying that you don't really care about them improving upon past games.

Nice try though. If you want to discredit what I say try using it in the proper context next time.
Hey, you first. If you don't have to place my posts in the proper context then why should I have to place yours in the proper context? To clarify, I too was just talking about my personal feeling regarding game mechanics. Besides, we've shown time and again and again and again that there are numerous other ways to achieve the same goals. But I guess that context can continually be ignored too.

And finally, many games in the past have thought that they solved the stealth problem and managed to implement it in a way that wouldn't cause problems (including EA Mythic with DAoC). And yet it always has. So perhaps they'll get it right this time, but why risk it? There is absolutely no need to as it's not really gaining anything and risking everything.

Not to mention that is still goes completely against the style of the class. You don't give a Choppa a crossbow as they wouldn't know what to do with it. Similarly you don't give stealth of any kind to Witch Elves.


- Xurré

[Pangscar]

You do know that this directly contradicts what I quoted you saying in the previous post, right? Unless, of course, you're saying that you don't really care about them improving upon past games.


I edited my post to reflect what I meant as it was worded incorrectly


Hey, you first. If you don't have to place my posts in the proper context then why should I have to place yours in the proper context? To clarify, I too was just talking about my personal feeling regarding game mechanics. Besides, we've shown time and again and again and again that there are numerous other ways to achieve the same goals. But I guess that context can continually be ignored too.

You replied to me by quoting something I was talking to another poster about and you want ME to use proper context? I have been all along, I know exactly where your coming from hence my reply to you at 12:08pm So "Hey, you first" I guess right.


And finally, many games in the past have thought that they solved the stealth problem and managed to implement it in a way that wouldn't cause problems (including EA Mythic with DAoC). And yet it always has.

That is entirely YOUR OPINION and NOT fact. Perhaps the use of a dictionary would be in order for you to help determine the difference between opinion and fact.


Not to mention that is still goes completely against the style of the class. You don't give a Choppa a crossbow as they wouldn't know what to do with it. Similarly you don't give stealth of any kind to Witch Elves.


- Xurré

Well sorry to say but thats not up to you to decide. If GW deems it atleast plausible to let Mythic test it then who are you to say they are wrong, its THEIR IP.

[Pangscar]

EDIT, double post

[Baron Khaine]

I know that everything goes through Games Workshop, but they seem to be far more interested in ensuring the visual style of Warhammer, and not the actual content. Which makes sense considering that they’re selling miniatures and not really the lore.

I don’t think we can trust Games Workshop to maintain the flavour of the setting anymore (beyond visually).Its there Lore, who the hell are you to tell them what to do with it? They wrote it, they put the effort into making it. All you did was read it. You want to lecture people on how to translate Lore into a game? You go make an entire world up, spend 30 odd years writing about it, then have it translated into a game.

Then you can comment on any of this. But until then, you don't have an opinion about this matter, all you have is a feeling of how it should go.

Can we stop with those arguments, please? Because the only ones still thinking like that are the ones who don’t have any issue with the changes to begin with.

I won't drop it because its still a valid argument, the only ones who can't see that are the people so blinded by text that they can't see this is an MMO, not a direct translation of the Warhammer world.

[Dukha]

If GW deems it atleast plausible to let Mythic test it then who are you to say they are wrong, its THEIR IP.Well, any good setting depends on and cares for its fans. If the creators of the setting stop believing that the fans matter then slowly the setting will lose that which made it special and attracted people to it.

I read your post to be saying that the fans should either cheer every decision or be quiet, hence my reply. And I wholeheartedly disagree with that. No great setting was built on just yes-sayers.

[bayle3]

Its there Lore, who the hell are you to tell them what to do with it? They wrote it, they put the effort into making it. All you did was read it. You want to lecture people on how to translate Lore into a game? You go make an entire world up, spend 30 odd years writing about it, then have it translated into a game.

Then you can comment on any of this. But until then, you don't have an opinion about this matter, all you have is a feeling of how it should go.

#

I won't drop it because its still a valid argument, the only ones who can't see that are the people so blinded by text that they can't see this is an MMO, not a direct translation of the Warhammer world.

well thankfully, the companies that write such lore dont have this sort of opinion, atleast not upon concept. i dont think i need to point out that people have bought this stuff, that we only read, for the thirty years or whatever it takes to make noteworthy... there should at some point, be some customer loyalty. respecting those that made it possible for the lore of warhammer to reach the success it is reaching for now. i dont think scrapping entire class concepts does anything except create hard feelings. i think the community as a whole has a right to make their feelings known, so long as they do it tastefully, and without hurting others.

noone is realistically expecting a word for word translation of the lore to mmo. theres no sense in calling it a witch elf, if they dont even act like one. theres no reason to have even made a mmo called warhammer, if you werent going to preserve some of the most basic concepts of what makes it warhammer.

[Dukha]

I find it continually fascinating, this "black and white" perspective people tend to use. Poor Xurré can probably scream herself blue trying to tell people she dont want an exact conversion of the TT rules and in fact have never claimed anything of the sort, people will continue to claim that "its an MMO, they have to make changes duh!" probably to the end of days.

Human nature I guess.

[Baron Khaine]

well thankfully, the companies that write such lore dont have this sort of opinion, atleast not upon concept. i dont think i need to point out that people have bought this stuff, that we only read, for the thirty years or whatever it takes to make noteworthy... there should at some point, be some customer loyalty. respecting those that made it possible for the lore of warhammer to reach the success it is reaching for now. i dont think scrapping entire class concepts does anything except create hard feelings. i think the community as a whole has a right to make their feelings known, so long as they do it tastefully, and without hurting others.

noone is realistically expecting a word for word translation of the lore to mmo. theres no sense in calling it a witch elf, if they dont even act like one. theres no reason to have even made a mmo called warhammer, if you werent going to preserve some of the most basic concepts of what makes it warhammer.

See there you go again, making assumptions, thats what your whole, Witch Elfs shouldn't use stealth, argument is based on isn't it?

While I can base mine on facts, if Witch Elfs are using Stealth, and Mythic are running everything past Games Workshop then Games Workshop approved of Witch Elfs to use Stealth. Games Workshop wrote the Lore so it is down to them, not the fans what they do with there i.p.

I'll give you the same advice I gave Xurre, go out and make your own Lore, then have it translated to a game after continuing it for 30 years, then lets see how much you stick to your concepts.

[Pangscar]

Well, any good setting depends on and cares for its fans. If the creators of the setting stop believing that the fans matter then slowly the setting will lose that which made it special and attracted people to it.

I read your post to be saying that the fans should either cheer every decision or be quiet, hence my reply. And I wholeheartedly disagree with that. No great setting was built on just yes-sayers.

Disagreeing with their decision is one thing. Claiming they are wrong because you think you know better is another. I am referring to the latter.

[bayle3]

I'll give you the same advice I gave Xurre, go out and make your own Lore, then have it translated to a game after continuing it for 30 years, then lets see how much you stick to your concepts.

while i do not lack the skills to retort your point, i wont. they sound rather angry and rather personal in nature. i still stand by my attempts to reach others while being respectful. im agreeing to disagree with you.

[Dukha]

Actually saying that GW approved of stealth is not a fact but a reasonable assumption.

And perhaps we just have a different understadning of the word "concept" (I'm not english by the way). To me that word always refered to a rough sketch or outline of a certain object or phenomenon. The essence of it if you will. So I would say that sticking to the concepts is very important. Sticking to the details however... Nah, those you probably have to mess with if things are to work out.

Not sticking to the concepts would potentially result in peaceloving Orcs and Witch Hunters that believe that the accused should be listened to is the point I'm trying to get at ;-)

[Hive]

Its there Lore, who the hell are you to tell them what to do with it? They wrote it, they put the effort into making it. All you did was read it. You want to lecture people on how to translate Lore into a game? You go make an entire world up, spend 30 odd years writing about it, then have it translated into a game.
.

That argument would be valid if it was the same people writing the lore now as 25 years ago. Ever since Gav Thorpe took over in the lore department it's gone straight downhill (hi there, ogre army... :rolleyes:).

As it stands I want you to take a step back and look at the first word in the name of this game. Warhammer. Warhammer. It's been stated repeatedly that none of us are expecting a direct translation of the TT/PnP RPG lore, but what they've done so far smacks of laziness and ineptitude.

I can accept the fact that they've turned one of the deadliest spellcasters in the IP into a bumbling moron using a mechanic that is much better suited to either the Greenskins ('eadbang) or Chaos (anyone remember the old Chaos gift cards? Sometimes they were awesome... sometimes you got turned into a spawn.). I would prefer they fix the source of the Disciples healing, it would take a 30 second rewrite of the description and you wouldn't have to change the game play of it at all. That aside, turning one of the premiere and iconic Dark Elf units into a rogue is too far especially using a broken mechanic. I realize that most of the player base isn't going to care about the story, and it's their loss; but it doesn't mean that they can't throw a bone to those of us who do when it won't cost them a thing.

As to the whole "just because it doesn't work elsewhere doesn't mean it won't work here" excuse-- I hear that if you believe hard enough you can make yourself fly. Try it out! Get on your roof, believe really really hard, and jump off. What? It didn't work? This time try flapping your arms while you're doing it. Still didn't work? Ok, this time try...

At some point you need to realize that a bad idea is going to be a bad idea every time no matter how many different ways you try it.

[Kestrel_Trebor]

Although I understand how vehemently people may be attached to the precise letter of the lore of the Warhammer Universe, I have to agree with the above posters who maintain that adjustments have to be made when you translate a game to electronic form. Ultimately, as long as it's enjoyable, and fairly faithful to the lore (I know that some are going to say that it's not being fairly faithful. . . but we could argue how to define that all day. . .), I would hope that people can simply sit back and enjoy playing it.

It's like Iron Man -- my all-time favorite superhero, coming to theaters near you on May 2. I am excited as heck to go see the movie. Have they "adapted" elements of the Iron Man story to the big screen and modern-day times, changing some fundamental parts of the story and aspects of the character? Absolutely. Will I still go see the movie, enjoy it immensely, and gleefully drool the whole time as I see my hero brought to life? ABSOLUTELY!

[Dukha]

Kestrel, did you read my post about black and white thinking? I will admit that I may just have missread your point and if so I apologize.
But the point I made below...
I find it continually fascinating, this "black and white" perspective people tend to use. Poor Xurré can probably scream herself blue trying to tell people she dont want an exact conversion of the TT rules and in fact have never claimed anything of the sort, people will continue to claim that "its an MMO, they have to make changes duh!" probably to the end of days. ...seems to be exemplified by your post. To be more precise, the point argued (to my knowledge atleast) is not and have never been that lore must not be broken. It is that the flavour must be maintained.

I spoke of concepts before and how I defined them. Your example regarding Ironman seemed to tie into that. Wouldnt you agree that it is still Ironman, all that they have done is change some details? And perhaps when you see the movie it turns out that they have changed so much of the details that, in your mind, the concept of Ironman have been compromised. Or perhaps they got it perfect, staying true to the concept despite the changes here and there.

So in closing I repeat that we do not say "dont change the lore!" because I am sure that most uf us that care about such things knows that the lore must be adapted. We are saying "please dont change the concepts" (and sometimes that is unfortunately read as "Dont change the concepts you !"). Details of the lore must be changed and added but if it is to much then the name on the box (Warhammer) will start to loose its meaning.

[Aggrosh]

Sorry to break it to all of you "lore fan bashers", but Mythic DID state they want to stick to the lore as much as possible, the very IP GW created. So the guys you neglect actually DO have a voice here :roll:

And the arguments stating "god, this is their game so you have nothing to say on the matter" is pretty much BS :roll: If you think they are making a game with their own/highly modified lore with GW's approval, you are in a HUGE mistake. If that was true, today you would see Warhammer 1 up to 3, and World of Warhammer created by Blizzard. Why is it Warcraft instead ? Because they heavily warped the lore of Warhammer, and I do think making WE's literally stealthy assassin's falls under this category.

[Baron Khaine]

And the arguments stating "god, this is their game so you have nothing to say on the matter" is pretty much BS :roll: If you think they are making a game with their own/highly modified lore with GW's approval, you are in a HUGE mistake. If that was true, today you would see Warhammer 1 up to 3, and World of Warhammer created by Blizzard. Why is it Warcraft instead ? Because they heavily warped the lore of Warhammer, and I do think making WE's literally stealthy assassin's falls under this category.

What? Your saying that because Mythic is twisting the Lore about abit, that Blizzard should have had the same oppurtunity? Warcraft is a very convoluted version of Warhammer, and the reason its called Warcraft is because Games Workshop did not give them permission to use Warhammer. Mythic is running everything past Games Workshop because Games Workshop is giving them permission to do these things. Games Workshops owns the Lore, hell if Games Workshop didn't like it they could take there Lore away. Its that simple. If Games Workshop don't like the way there Lore is being presented, they'll pull the plug. And I have no doubts in that.

[Kestrel_Trebor]

^^^ (in response to Dukha, 3 posts above)

I see exactly what you're saying -- I think we're on the same page, and I think where we (and everyone) differs is in what they perceive as concepts, lore, etc., and what they perceive as major/minor changes.

Some people have tolerance for only very minor changes before they start feeling that it's too much and their experience is compromised.

In contrast, other people have tolerance for much broader changes without it impacting their gaming experience or perception of the game.

And ultimately, what's big to some is small to others, and vice-versa. . .

I guess my hope is just that people will allow themselves to enjoy what I think is going to be a fantastic MMO, based in the Warhammer universe, regardless of whether there's 150 or 15,000 departures from the way that things have been presented in the Wahammer universe prior to the MMO. Because ultimately, the game is just an extension of the lore, and will become part of the lore.

And I guess I'm feeling (and I'm 36, mind you!) that those who have only minor tolerance for changes are akin to the "back in my day we walked uphill backwards in the snow to school" crowd -- stuck in the past, unwilling to accept that things (must) change.

And yes I know we can argue all day about which concepts/lore can, should and must change as WAR is created. . .

[checkthis5000]

And I guess I'm feeling (and I'm 36, mind you!) that those who have only minor tolerance for changes are akin to the "back in my day we walked uphill backwards in the snow to school" crowd -- stuck in the past, unwilling to accept that things (must) change.

And yes I know we can argue all day about which concepts/lore can, should and must change as WAR is created. . .

My feelings exactly.

[Ayetalam]

And I guess I'm feeling (and I'm 36, mind you!) that those who have only minor tolerance for changes are akin to the "back in my day we walked uphill backwards in the snow to school" crowd -- stuck in the past, unwilling to accept that things (must) change.

And yes I know we can argue all day about which concepts/lore can, should and must change as WAR is created. . .

QFT. Really good way of saying it.

[Hive]

And I guess I'm feeling (and I'm 36, mind you!) that those who have only minor tolerance for changes are akin to the "back in my day we walked uphill backwards in the snow to school" crowd -- stuck in the past, unwilling to accept that things (must) change.

And yes I know we can argue all day about which concepts/lore can, should and must change as WAR is created. . .

If something is to be changed it should be changed for the better. Take the adding of the prophesy to the Dark Elf lore, it wasn't in before 6th ed but it added to the image that Malekith was a paranoid tyrant who would stop at nothing, including weakening his entire race, to stay in power. It improves upon what was already there, thus a change for the better.

Most of the changes we've seen Mythic make do nothing to improve the IP and seem to be there due to laziness or lack of imagination.

Change for the sake of change alone is ignorant.

[Browncoat-WHA]

This thread is clearly off the track of the original post and has become another Warhammer lore argument. Frankly, all I see are the same points going back and forth that we've seen in other threads from both sides, complete with the same borderline insults, while the new information has not really turned over anything new with regards to this debate.

It's pretty evident no one is going to convince anyone on the other side that they're correct, but I'm curious and I'm willing to give the thread one more chance to stop being circular and unnecessarily aggressive. My advice - I'd stay away from what one poster refers to as "black and white" ideas - something both sides are clearly guilty of.

Just because someone supports a greater adherence to the lore doesn't mean they are a "lore whiner".

Just because someone is more flexible towards lore changes doesn't mean they are a "lore basher".

I'd stay away from such blanket statements.

[Kestrel_Trebor]

If something is to be changed it should be changed for the better. Take the adding of the prophesy to the Dark Elf lore, it wasn't in before 6th ed but it added to the image that Malekith was a paranoid tyrant who would stop at nothing, including weakening his entire race, to stay in power. It improves upon what was already there, thus a change for the better.

Most of the changes we've seen Mythic make do nothing to improve the IP and seem to be there due to laziness or lack of imagination.

Change for the sake of change alone is ignorant.

But, again -- this is all based on your particular viewpoint. It's all perception-based, really, and ultimately I just hope that those who are troubled by the changes being made will try to take a deep breath and give a chance to what will probably be the only "Official" Warhammer MMO in our lifetime. Because I think, ultimately, it's bound to be a heckuva game.

And Browncoat -- you're right the two sides are not going to convince each other :)

But I don't think this line of discussion is off-topic, although it's certainly re-hashed. The topic of the original post and the title of the thread is "Unfortunate Proof of Stealthing Witch Elves," which presupposes that stealth being added to Witch Elves is a bad thing, which led us into the lore debate once again. . .

[LatukiJoe]

I like the way it looks like stealth is being done here. You're not able to keep it up forever. Works for me.

[Xurré]

Well sorry to say but thats not up to you to decide. If GW deems it atleast plausible to let Mythic test it then who are you to say they are wrong, its THEIR IP.Its there Lore, who the hell are you to tell them what to do with it? They wrote it, they put the effort into making it. All you did was read it. You want to lecture people on how to translate Lore into a game? You go make an entire world up, spend 30 odd years writing about it, then have it translated into a game.

Then you can comment on any of this. But until then, you don't have an opinion about this matter, all you have is a feeling of how it should go.
Let me give another example and perhaps you’ll start understanding where I’m coming from here.

Let’s say that EA Mythic puts one class in the game that’s purposefully so incredibly powerful that it’ll easily defeat every other class in every situation each and every time. Play anything other than this class and you clearly have no chance.

Now, I can hear you thinking “but they would never do that because it would ruin the game”. True, but they can do it. It’s their game. They can ruin it all they want. You shouldn’t have any say in this, you shouldn’t have any opinion on whether that class ruins the game because it is their game, they can do with it what they want.

And that goes all the way down the design of the game and the working of the game mechanics, the visual design, the price of the game, the servers it runs on and how stable they are, the guilds you can be allowed to play, etc, etc, etc. All of it is their game and they can do what they want, even if you feel that what they’re doing isn’t perhaps the best idea and is likely to ruin the game, not only for you but for those unsuspecting buyers who have no idea yet (and who are likely to be happy with whatever they do).

So perhaps we should just shut the forums down, since after all we can’t have an opinion on the game. It’s EA Mythic’s game, and us talking about what does and doesn’t work is obviously out-of-line. Perhaps we should all have developed MMOs for the past twenty years before we can have an opinion in anything EA Mythic does.

Sound familiar?

Well, what you’re telling us in regards to what Games Workshop is doing is the same thing. Sure, they can do whatever they want with it; they can burn it to the ground, turn it into My Little Ponyhammer, or anything they want. But that doesn’t mean that they should; that doesn’t mean that I can’t be of the opinion that what they’re doing is wrong, that they’re destroying that which makes the setting interesting to us.

As customers we should be able to tell a company (or companies in this case) what we want and what we don’t want.

So here I am, a customer of EA Mythic’s Warhammer Online (and yes, I am a customer) telling them that the way they’re implementing the Warhammer lore in their game is wrong. Now, they might have permission from Games Workshop to do it this way, Games Workshop might have given them permission to break their lore here or maybe they’re changing the lore, I don’t care. That’s between EA Mythic and Games Workshop. I’m telling them that I don’t agree with what they’re doing.

And EA Mythic gave us the promise that they’re making a Warhammer games, that they’re trying to stay true to the flavour and style of the Warhammer world. So I then expect them to stay true to this promise. The way they assured us that this was true was by saying that they run everything by Games Workshop, but clearly that’s not working to ensure that things stay true to the style of the setting. Either Games Workshop is too lacks or is changing the product in a direction I don’t agree with (and won’t buy). End result remains that they’re way crossing the line and are changing the flavour of this part of it into something that I don’t recognise as being Warhammer.

As you can clearly see from the story linked at the start of the thread; in WAR’s world it seems that Witch Elves stealth around, they ‘prowl’ the battlefield and their frenzy is what gets them killed. That’s a lore story as published by EA Mythic (and it doesn’t matter who wrote it, they published it). And I am here, telling them that this is wrong, that this isn’t Warhammer. Now it’s up to them to figure out where things went wrong (maybe they never did run it past Games Workshop or Games Workshop is failing in its duty to ensure that it remains Warhammer), I’m just here telling them that it is and I’m far from the only one feeling this way.

And I realize that you don’t care about the lore, but can you at least show some respect and, god forbid, some support for those that do? Because what we’re asking for shouldn’t negatively impact you. After all, if you can have faith that EA Mythic can make the game work with stealth then you can have faith that they can with some less volatile mechanic too.

I won't drop it because its still a valid argument, the only ones who can't see that are the people so blinded by text that they can't see this is an MMO, not a direct translation of the Warhammer world.
It’s only a valid (counter)argument if we’ve actually been making the argument that they should adhere strictly to the lore. Since we’ve never made that argument that (counter)argument isn’t valid. In fact, it has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever and as long as people keep using it we’ll never get anywhere.



Although I understand how vehemently people may be attached to the precise letter of the lore of the Warhammer Universe, I have to agree with the above posters who maintain that adjustments have to be made when you translate a game to electronic form.
Luckily, those “above posters” are all posters in this thread, since we’re all in agreement in this. It just seems that some of those above posters don’t seem to be able to understand this.



Some people have tolerance for only very minor changes before they start feeling that it's too much and their experience is compromised.
And, again, luckily I’m not (and I don’t think anyone on my side of the argument is) one if those people. So again an argument that has pretty much no relevance to the discussion.

We’re all willing to accept change, but it does need to be change for the better since change for the sake of change is never good. And when I see something quite unique and flavourful changed into something bland and generic then, yes, I’ll complain. Because this game should be so much better than that.



ultimately I just hope that those who are troubled by the changes being made will try to take a deep breath and give a chance to what will probably be the only "Official" Warhammer MMO in our lifetime.
I think that it being the only “official” Warhammer MMO is exactly why we’re fighting for this so strongly. Because this is our one and only chance, so EA Mythic better get it right. And just as when people see something broken in the gameplay they can and should argue to get it changed, we are fighting to get something changed that matters a lot to us.

I will play the game, but I’m telling you now; if I see Witch Elves turn invisible and sneak up on people from behind then this will ruin the game for me no matter how great the rest of it is. And I don’t want to see that happen as I want to be able to enjoy this game too.

the two sides are not going to convince each other :)
That’s an easy argument to make if you’re on the side with nothing invested in this. Because one of the two sides is going to enjoy the game regardless of whether Witch Elves are going to have stealth or not. But the other side, the one I’m on, is highly invested in this since the enjoyment of the game hangs in the balance (maybe not completely for everyone, but it’s definitely playing a factor I think). So is it really that much to ask that even if you don’t agree with our standpoint that stealth doesn’t suit Witch Elves to at least recognise that it doesn’t matter either way to you and support us in this, show us some solidarity?

In the end I really don’t care whether I convince you that stealth doesn’t suit Witch Elves at all, as long as they don’t end up having stealth in the end.

Because so far the only people who I’ve seen argue for Witch Elves getting stealth are people who don’t really seem to care about the setting and are happy to accept whatever version EA Mythic turns it into.



- Xurré

[Dukha]

^^^ (in response to Dukha, 3 posts above)

I see exactly what you're saying -- I think we're on the same page, and I think where we (and everyone) differs is in what they perceive as concepts, lore, etc., and what they perceive as major/minor changes.
Thanks for the response. You are of course correct that what one person sees as a fundamental concept another person will see as just a minor detail. It is however my impression that the people that view Witch Elfs possibly having stealth as a core function as just a detail also dont care that much about the setting (or atleast this particular part of the setting), they are more interested in gameplay aspects. Which is very reasonable and I understand that fully, after all I'm like that as well. But I'm also one of those people that view making Witch Elfs into rogues as a contradiction with (what I percieve to be I should say) their most fundamental nature, the bloodcrazed religious fanatic that equates prayer with battle. To my mind that is a very basic principle and well worth of being described as a defining concept, a concept that is being negatively impacted should stealth be included. You are however free to argue against this and I promise that I will reply in a curtious manner, most likely with counterarguments or an admittance of a point well made.

Xurré also makes a good point, once this game launches I can garantuee that every forum devoted to WAR will expolde with threads about things that people percieve as wrong with the game. Reasoning as some of the posters in this thread (and other threads like it) the way to deal with this is just lock every single thread that pops up, no matter how well written it is because none of us have a right to comment on what Mythic is doing. Personally I plan to partake in debates that regards pure gameplay issues that I care about, either by supporting the original topic or arguing against it. But I will never challenge the right to bring up a topic that someone feels is important, even if I personally am tired of hearing about it. I mean, the "back" button is so easy to reach I dont have to read it ;)

[Zoatibix]

I don’t want WAR to slavishly follow Warhammer lore, but it should be sympathetic to it. Stealthy Witch Elves runs directly against their image – running straight at the enemy screaming curses and praises to Khaine.

When I first got into WHFB Witch Elves wore trousers and neck to knee chainmail shirts. Their imagery has changed over the years, sure, but a key part of their character has always been that they are screaming, frenzied, religious fanatics.

Their looks have changed but their character hasn't - attack from the front, screaming!

We’ve talked about superheroes and their varying portrayals in different media. If I made a movie about a superhero and wanted said hero to deliberately kill the villains I wouldn’t put Batman in because as far as I know one of his traits is not killing villains (substitute Superman if you want), I’d put in a character like The Punisher because he would fit the story.

Putting that back into WAR, I believe that if Mythic wanted a Druchii stealth class they could have worked on Corsairs (and excellent mirror to the WH) or Assassin. What was the point in making the WE into something she is not when they had classes that would have fit with fewer changes?

The argument that GW said it was okay just has me shrugging really. Reading some Black Library books for example would have one believe that all Eldar are in league with She Who Thirsts – which according to mainstream canon they aren’t. Just because GW don’t care doesn’t mean we cannot express the fact that we do.

I know it is something GW do, but I think it is a sign of poor writing skills and an unwillingness to think of clever ways out of narrative 'holes'.

It also bugs me that it isn’t an internally consistent lore change. Yes, WE are still blood-thirsty berserker maidens! Yes, they still scream bloody praises to their lord Khaine! No…they don’t actually charge headlong towards the enemy though…they kinda sneak around the sides really, really quietly and…er…stab them in the back.

The rules for TT WE fit their WHFB background Lore. The rules for WE in WAR don’t fit their WAR background lore…. That’s just dumb.

It is silly not to compare MMORPG games against each other. Yes, the games are different to each other in some ways but WAR has a heck of a lot more similarities to WoW than it has differences. Trust me, I’ve played both.

“…those who have only minor tolerance for changes are akin to the "back in my day we walked uphill backwards in the snow to school" crowd -- stuck in the past, unwilling to accept that things (must) change…”

The problem with this comment is that things don’t have to change. Consider evolution – there are designs that have worked for millions of years still happily pottering about.

If WE needed to change because they are in a different environment why aren’t they wearing chainmail vests and carrying swords instead of daggers? Is it because it would be against their current form or because it wouldn’t show enough T&A?

I’m not wildly angry about stealth on WE, merely disappointed. It just seems inconsistent with both their character as portrayed in WAR’s background and in WHFB. What does worry me is that the mechanic itself may not help their survivability in the RvR environment.

[Kestrel_Trebor]

For me, personally -- I love Witch Elves, and I love stealth, so the marriage of the two is no problem. But I'd also be just as happy with another ability that allows the WE to get to her target without getting demolished. I plan on playing my WE as solo most of the time in open RvR, but I was planning on doing that even before stealth -- the leaping ability that was previewed seemed to be the perfect way to quickly get to a target or get away from a target, which would have supported my solo play just fine (I hoped) ;)

That having been said -- what if the WE were changed to the DE Assassin that I've heard about? I don't know too much about them, but couldn't they just re-write things a bit, mess with some models, and change the WE to a career that would keep everyone happy b/c stealth would fit right in? People that wanted to play WE would be unhappy -- but people would get to play a toon for which the stealth ability does not fracture the lore.

[Zoatibix]

Link with a bit about assasssins : http://uk.games-workshop.com/darkelves/miniature-gallery/4/

Dropping WE now would really annoy me. I've argue for them for months (not that my crud had anything to do with them being in, it was just nice that I turned out to have guessed right).

Had the MDPS been Assassin or Corsair I would have been dissapointed but I still would have pre-ordered the game and be going for a choppa.

I also would have been less irritated about the sudden revelation of stealth - it would fit both of these classes.

The only problem I can see with assassin is their gender restriction. How much of a LoreStorm(tm) would female assassins have kicked up? Bigger than male sorcerers returning, bigger than DoK methinks.

Still I'm sure Mythic's team of professional writers could have seemlessly woven a convinced rationale that was sympathetic to the Warhammer background. /tease.

Way, way back people were suggesting a class that was Assassin if you picked male and Witch Elf if you chose female. Same abilities, etc and would have certainly eased a bit of the gender restriction on the Destruction side. Although it would have pretty much let the 'stealth cat' out of the bag.

I guess the reason I'm still in this thread arguing is that I see faults in the logic of those in the other camp. I bear them no more malice than I do for any other living creature*


*RPing: not a flame or threat of violence. :rolleyes:

[Pangscar]

Let me give another example and perhaps you’ll start understanding where I’m coming from here.

Let’s say that EA Mythic puts one class in the game that’s purposefully so incredibly powerful that it’ll easily defeat every other class in every situation each and every time. Play anything other than this class and you clearly have no chance.

Now, I can hear you thinking “but they would never do that because it would ruin the game”. True, but they can do it. It’s their game. They can ruin it all they want. You shouldn’t have any say in this, you shouldn’t have any opinion on whether that class ruins the game because it is their game, they can do with it what they want.

And that goes all the way down the design of the game and the working of the game mechanics, the visual design, the price of the game, the servers it runs on and how stable they are, the guilds you can be allowed to play, etc, etc, etc. All of it is their game and they can do what they want, even if you feel that what they’re doing isn’t perhaps the best idea and is likely to ruin the game, not only for you but for those unsuspecting buyers who have no idea yet (and who are likely to be happy with whatever they do).

So perhaps we should just shut the forums down, since after all we can’t have an opinion on the game. It’s EA Mythic’s game, and us talking about what does and doesn’t work is obviously out-of-line. Perhaps we should all have developed MMOs for the past twenty years before we can have an opinion in anything EA Mythic does.



- Xurré

But see, the difference is that if they did do that no one would play game(or hardly anyone) and it would fail. While making changes to lore will NOT cause the game to fail. After all, you are still here right? You still plan on getting the game still right? Which comes right back to the fact that gameplay>lore in terms of a games success.

And I cant speak for anyone else but when I say "Its their lore who are you to say its wrong" I say that to mean who are you to think you KNOW better then them. You can complain about it all you want but when you come off as thinking you know better thats where I have a problem with it.

and please don't go off on a, "oh lets just shut down the forums cause we can't express our opinions" trip. It really makes your whole argument look silly when you try to make it look like your some kind of victim who's not being allowed to speak. You are allowed your opinion and we are allowed ours, even if it differs with yours, you REALLY need to get that concept in your head.

[Dukha]

But see, the difference is that if they did do that no one would play game(or hardly anyone) and it would fail. While making changes to lore will NOT cause the game to fail. After all, you are still here right? You still plan on getting the game still right? Which comes right back to the fact that gameplay>lore in terms of a games success.
But you do see what Xurré was going for in that part you quoted right? At its core it is the exact same thing, the only real difference would be your perception of how important the different aspects are.

Also, I can sympathize with you being put of when people say that "this is how things are". But being confident in ones point isnt a bad thing and I'm fairly certain that you yourself would say things like "The Uberstrike of Extreme Unfairness that the Uberstriker gets that lets him oneshot anyone whenever he wants is plain and simply so utterly wrong its insane and needs to be changed!" should Mythic implement a career with an ability like that. Besides, saying things like "in my view", "as I understand it" and so on after every single satement you make would get a bit repetitive, especially when you're in the habit of writing huge posts on a regular basis... For one thing they get that much longer!

Sorry Xurré I just couldnt resist a little poke your way there at the finish ;)

[Baron Khaine]

Gonna say this one more time.

Roleplayers = Minority.
Lorebuffs = Minority.
Gamers who just want to play = Majority.

They put stealth in to appeal to the masses, the Gamers who just want to play, section, because guess what, people like stealth. Regardless of popular opinion, there is an awful lot of people who like stealth.

Now if we go to what your saying Xurre and they put in a class that inbalances everything, that effects everyone. So they wouldn't do that because they would lose a sizable chunk of business over it.

Gamers who just want to play are in the Majority, and guess what, thats who they put stealth in for.

[Xurré]

That having been said -- what if the WE were changed to the DE Assassin that I've heard about? I don't know too much about them, but couldn't they just re-write things a bit, mess with some models, and change the WE to a career that would keep everyone happy b/c stealth would fit right in? People that wanted to play WE would be unhappy -- but people would get to play a toon for which the stealth ability does not fracture the lore.
That’s something that I’ve been saying for a while now. I would personally not be happy about it (in fact, I’m not sure I’d even play the game), but at least it wouldn’t turn Witch Elves into something they’re really not. Assassins would fit perfectly for a positional-fighting, stealthing, damage-dealing melee class. But they didn’t choose to implement Assassins, they chose to implement Witch Elves. So, I feel, they should either implement Witch Elves fully, or implement Assassins fully, not one with the look of the other.



The only problem I can see with assassin is their gender restriction. How much of a LoreStorm(tm) would female assassins have kicked up? Bigger than male sorcerers returning, bigger than DoK methinks.
Not much at all I bet, particularly considering that their connection to being male-only is a particularly tenuous one. There’s one reference in a old sourcebook that mentions that male babies are stolen on Death Night to be thrown in the Cauldron (and possibly become Assassins); one could argue for instance that it doesn’t exclude the possibility of female babies being stolen similarly, if not the same way, or female Assassins being trained for other reasons (“this potential Witch Elf doesn’t have the required look, but she’s superb with a blade… let’s train her as an Assassin instead”).

Besides, that particular bit of lore is already changed in WAR, considering that Disciples are born the same way as Assassins and they do include females. (And again, female Assassins are a change in the “strict lore” that I actually support.)



But see, the difference is that if they did do that no one would play game(or hardly anyone) and it would fail. While making changes to lore will NOT cause the game to fail.
No, but these changes would cause the lore to fail. That might not matter to you, it might not matter to Games Workshop*, but it matters to me.

After all, you are still here right?
Short of there not being any Witch Elves I’d be here pretty much regardless of what they do. After all, leaving never actually accomplished anything; they certainly aren’t going to change Witch Elves just because otherwise I might leave.

Which comes right back to the fact that gameplay>lore in terms of a games success.
Hardly, at least for me. Considering that the gameplay doesn’t have to have any effect on how I play; one doesn’t need game systems to roleplay. If the game is good, sure I’ll play it. But if, say, the PvP sucks then I won’t PvP and if the PvE sucks then I won’t PvE.

I know that most people come here for the game first and everything else second, but that doesn’t mean that the setting isn’t important. After all, otherwise they wouldn’t have made a Warhammer game to begin with since people would play it regardless of what it’s called.

And I cant speak for anyone else but when I say "Its their lore who are you to say its wrong" I say that to mean who are you to think you KNOW better then them. You can complain about it all you want but when you come off as thinking you know better thats where I have a problem with it.
I don’t say that I know the lore better then them at all.

First of all, the lore is rather big. Start talking to be about the Old World and I’m pretty much just as clueless as the next person. But I’m very well informed about the dark elves (and yes, at times it feels that I might be knowing them better than whoever is in charge of them now over at GW). I don’t know the lore better than they do, but I do think that there are details that I understand at least as well.

Secondly, that Games Workshop thinks that stealthing Witch Elves are perfectly fine lore-wise is a supposition and not proven at all. It’s quite possible that they realize that it’s a huge departure from their style, but don’t care or think that this’ll bring in the stealth enthusiasts, or maybe they’ve consciously decided to change the setting in that direction or they’ve just missed it or any of a dozen other possible explanations besides “this is how it was always supposed to be”.

Thirdly, it’s not about knowing the lore better, but about what I perceive to be better for the lore. According to George Lucas the Force was always supposed to be these micro-organisms, but people have for years understood it to be this mysterious force or energy field seeping throughout all parts of the cosmos and that was a large part of what they found so attractive to it. When George basically said “it’s this lame explanation instead” then people were rightly upset.

Similarly, even if Witch Elves were always supposed to be a sneaky, stealthy, positional-fighting class then that doesn’t mean that it’s right for them to be thus. Because what made them popular, what makes them so interesting, is that they’re a screaming, insane, frenzying, in-your-face berserker class. So if GW says that they were always supposed to be capable of being this sneaky class or if they’re saying that they’re changing them around, then I say that they’re wrong in doing so because they’re destroying what makes them so fun and interesting.

Simply because they own the lore doesn’t mean that they can’t make mistakes, doesn’t mean that everything they chose to do with it is always for the better. And I’m saying that this change isn’t for the better and thus shouldn’t be made.

and please don't go off on a, "oh lets just shut down the forums cause we can't express our opinions" trip. It really makes your whole argument look silly when you try to make it look like your some kind of victim who's not being allowed to speak. You are allowed your opinion and we are allowed ours, even if it differs with yours, you REALLY need to get that concept in your head.
Then stop trying to tell me to shut up (as some have directly done and other seem to hint at). If we are all allowed to express our opinions then I should be allowed to express the opinion that what Games Workshop/EA Mythic is doing with the Witch Elves is wrong.



Gamers who just want to play are in the Majority, and guess what, thats who they put stealth in for.
I seriously doubt that the people who like stealth would find this extremely limited version that's being reported anywhere near to their satisfaction.

And those who do enjoy the mechanic would also equally (if not more) enjoy a mechanic that achieves a similar result but actually does fit in with the lore of the class.


- Xurré


* Since they probably just see WAR as an offshoot of their products and not officially related, similar to how the books often introduce thing which contradict their official version. It might be interesting to see if they also include this change in future TT products and turn Witch Elves into stealthing positional fighting assassins there too, but for one I doubt that they’ll be willing to sacrifice their lore in their own products and if they do then they’ve truly lots their way.

[Aggrosh]

Gonna say this one more time.

Roleplayers = Minority.
Lorebuffs = Minority.
Gamers who just want to play = Majority.

They put stealth in to appeal to the masses, the Gamers who just want to play, section, because guess what, people like stealth. Regardless of popular opinion, there is an awful lot of people who like stealth.

Now if we go to what your saying Xurre and they put in a class that inbalances everything, that effects everyone. So they wouldn't do that because they would lose a sizable chunk of business over it.

Gamers who just want to play are in the Majority, and guess what, thats who they put stealth in for.

No offense, but guess what, only a troll/flamer would say something as ignorant as that :roll: Why ? Because thats almost as if saying "Hey, give up cause YOU LOST" which is highly provoking.

I won't be commenting much on this, cause all of that I mentioned in my earlier post and quite frankly I don't see sense in rewriting that. Scroll if you wish.

The only thing that strikes me is if this issue bothers you to such a level, then why even write such posts. I mean, you're playing a Black Guard anyway (judging from your profile info). It's as if for example Warrior Priests started worshipping Ulric and wear wolf pelts on themselves, which would obviously meet with high dissatisfaction, but then I came in and said "omg get over it people, it will make it into the game anyway" because I roll a Shadow Warrior and don't care even a little. You're writing this motivated merely by annoyance than anything else.
Basically in my eyes what you're doing now is taking the stance of "WoW fanatics bashing W:AR vids on youtube, ironically spending more time on that than playing their game".

[Baron Khaine]

*EDITED for content*

[Axxar]

For the love of God can we stop whining about people whining?

[Kestrel_Trebor]

I seriously doubt that the people who like stealth would find this extremely limited version that's being reported anywhere near to their satisfaction.

I actually love stealth as a mechanic -- loved playing my stealther in DAOC -- and I'm fine with what we know of the way stealth may be implemented. Smart players will still be able to take advantage of it situationally, yet it addresses a chief concern of people who just generally don't like stealth.

Now if the ability that WE might otherwise get is something like 10 seconds of invulnerability -- well, then, I'd toss the limited stealth by the wayside in a moment. I mean, I guess I'm saying, I hope WE isn't getting toned down to compensate b/c they may be getting stealth, or that other *better* abilities are being sidelined for stealth. . .

[pzykozis]

DC comics announces that Batman is now going to wear a pink dress. Whilst he still retains his identity as Batman, is he really the Batman that the fans know and love?

my arguement is this, lore is lore and has to be adapted to adhere to the mmo format, however, if you add a character that has its own flavour defined by the ever so used '25 years of lore' that makes this game so special in relation to other games as mythic themselves state. Why would you honestly, kill the core flavour of a class, those of you who state this as a minor detail to the witch elf need to clarify what the major details are, after all the the aesthetics are purely aesthetics the part that makes a witch elf a witch elf is the characterists (atleast in my opinion) and though people might disagree with the notion that the core characteristic of a witch elf is her frenzied crazyness.

Ok at this point i got bored with my arguement i have a feeling people will just poo poo it anyway, but summarised, why have a class that has its own flavour then drastically change this flavour purely for public appeal? why not just make a super awesome badass class that appeals to the public then? and instead not alienate even a minority of players. This also suprisingly then doesn't ruin any image of an iconic part of any race, much like a pink frilly batman or a iron man who wears his iron suit but it shoots out flowers instead of having repulser rays.

[Xurré]

I actually love stealth as a mechanic -- loved playing my stealther in DAOC -- and I'm fine with what we know of the way stealth may be implemented.
You, however, are interested regardless of whether they have stealth or not. What we were talking about, or so I understood, was attracting people who would not otherwise be interested in the class (or even the game); people for who stealth is everything and the only reason to play it (because everyone else will be fine with the class as long as it's balanced). And those people are, I think, not going to be satisfied at all.

Look, what I'm saying is that I wish they'd put the effort into making a non-stealth solution for them work as much as they seem to be dedicated now to making stealth work. But somehow I got the feeling, from the report linked in the original post, that they're set on keeping stealth no matter what. After all, they already seem to be trying to explain that Witch Elves do stealth.

And I can't believe that a company with EA Mythic's experience is unable to make anything other than stealth work for them.


- Xurré

[Ishtar]

For all you pro-stealthers...

Forget about lore. Putting stealth in the game is a direct opposition to what Mythic promised a while ago, which is.... NO STEALTH CLASSES. They saw how much of an annoyance stealth was for victims of WoW Rogues... AND they saw how much of a hinderance it was on the WoW rogue class in general, having to make stealth so annoying and broken that Rogues OUT of stealth are generally weak.

Disclaimer: I am aware that you can re-stealth, vanish, etc. Please don't say anything about "well maybe u just suk at roag lol"

Stealth is a crappy game mechanic and to blindly claim that most players are just pinheads who want to be sneaky ninjas is not only ignorant, but condescending. There are plenty of ways to make a Witch Elf "stealthy" without giving her the ability to turn invisible and sneak around. (which forces developers to balance her out by making her weaker out of stealth)

But even if you want to play the Lore card, it really is a violation of GW's vision for Witch Elves to an enormous degree. It's almost the same as making Squig herders able to stand toe to toe with an Ironbreaker in melee combat and win.

[Emeraldw99]

Stealth is a crappy game mechanic and to blindly claim that most players are just pinheads who want to be sneaky ninjas is not only ignorant, but condescending. There are plenty of ways to make a Witch Elf "stealthy" without giving her the ability to turn invisible and sneak around. (which forces developers to balance her out by making her weaker out of stealth)


Actually, all stealth is, is a way for the class to move around and do it's job by getting to their target. Thats all it is. Witch Elves use stealth same way as you would use a charge, only this way is better. It also doesn't appear to be an endless stealth, which is likely what the devs were talking about.

Also it doesn't have to be "weaker" out of stealth really, the ability will likely have a reasonable cool down and only last so long. As I said, it's a method of getting to your target, thats all. Now once you bind skills to the stealth you end up with something akin to the wow rogue, however this class is not that comparable to that class.

Finally it isn't all that unreasonable to believe that an individual witch elf would sneak into a group (she is an elf after all) and THEN go crazy and rip them up. Elves aren't like orcs who will run into a fight screaming their heads off and not care about dying.

[Narv107]

Elves aren't like orcs who will run into a fight screaming their heads off and not care about dying.

Isn't that EXACTLY what a Witch Elf is like?

[Ishtar]

Isn't that EXACTLY what a Witch Elf is like?

Yes. I can see the developers wanting to differentiate between witch elves and Choppers/marauders a bit, though. Perhaps they're attempting to highlight the LORE fact that elves make up for their less substantial bodies with amazing agility and finesse, regardless of how bloodthirsty and insane they are.

I can see that. But still... if it's anything like the WoW rogue stealth that lasts forever unless broken and very sneaky and careful in nature, then yeah, poo on the devs for that idea.

[Ayetalam]

Well what they really said was that there won't be stealth like in the other games. That LIKE can be interpreted in 2 ways.

1. As in the same as other games. It won't be the same as other games, it will be different, but might still go in.

2. There won't be stealth in the game, which other games have, but we won't.


Think of it as the Blood Priest thing they did. Josh said "There will be no Blood Priest in WAR." And he is right, there isn't a class called a Blood Priest in WAR. But there is a class called a Disciple of Khaine that plays like what a Blood Priest was supposed to play. So he never lied, there isn't one if you look at it in black and white, but there is one if you look deeper.

So it all depends on how you read it and interpret it.

[Morelius]

I think there is very little to debate anymore.

This is a huge reversal to Warhammer lore, taking one of the most iconic classes and making it the reverse of what it has always been, in tabletop terms, they are making the witch elves into assassins. Making the least stealthy (screaming, drugged up, berserking, charge-at-enemy) class into (invisible, sneaky, avoid being attacked themselves) assassins is the equivelant of making Archmages melee, who tame a white lion. For anyone who has ever followed and enjoyed the lore of warhammer, this goes beyond lore tweaking/altering to improve the game, it reeks of total contempt for what the witch elves are. This is not even debatable.

All that is left regarding the lore is each individuals personal opinion regarding lore, how much it matters to each of us as individual. Many of us care obviously, that is why we are following the progress of this game, because we are warhammer fans from before this game, and enjoy the lore. Others don't care about lore, just want another mmorpg clone to play, claim that the majority of people don't care about a game having a good theme/background/feel/lore, and would happily defend having a super saiyan or teenage mutant ninja turtle as a class on the basis that "it would be popular, lore be damned". As these are very personal as to who much, or how little each person cares about lore, it is not worthy of debate, its like arguing over your favourite numbers.

Yes, Mythic are destroying an iconic class, creating the assassin class, with the visual appeal of the naked female.

I've seen it mentioned to the effect, "Stealth in the game, is it really going to be game breaking?" Try reversing the query, "Stealth not in the game, is the lack of stealth going to be game breaking?" Both answers are no, though when fans of warhammer lose respect for the game due to such reversals of lore, then it could be game breaking for them. The stealth fans have come to this game under the much touted "No stealth, no stealth, no stealth!" promotion, so they were intending to play the game without it, so the lack of it is less game breaking for them. So when you don't care about lore, try to understand that this may be an important for others, who do. Also, stealth could be game breaking for ranged dps, and support, who say they are vulnerable up close in melee, and now these melee dps have a GUARANTEED way to be "surprise!" up close before the ranged dps or support has a chance to soften them up at all. When you make a class vulnerable to melee, and guarantee that the melee can attack them without being vulnerable at range, then that introduces new balance issues.

There is no point debating the about-face by Mythic either. No stealth was a major feature and major appeal to many, making it clear what they thought of this broken mechanic that seemed to appeal to those who seek to earn maximum kills via least skill, those who like to hide from combat and grief people. This was a welcome announcement from Mythic, along with their statement that CC would not be a major feature of pvp, ie, you would actually get a chance to control your character before you die, unlike a certain other mmorpg. This change understandably has people wondering what other welcome features will be reversed, making the game less original and less appealing to many.

Strangely enough, there has been little discussion of the common sense argument. Mythic are thinking the classes with highest visibility (naked, pale white skin, and guys with flaming torches) are naturally those that are most impossible to see and worthy of invisibility. To paraquote Mythics thoughts:
"Hey, we have these almost naked, pale white girls with big hair, who don't blend into their background, who drink blood laced with drugs which fills them with bloodlust and rage, before throwing themselves at the enemy and go berserk, that certainly sounds like a stealthy class! Lets make them hide from battle, sneak in invisible, pick out weak targets and slit your throat quietly from behind before running away"....

Sure logic and common sense are always put aside in game, to allow game mechanics to work, but to this degree??? The nonsensical and impracticality of the decision is beyond normal and expected in games, bordering on stupid. This is clear, and hardly debatable. I made a comment earlier that Mythic probably considered in all seriousness that Chosen should be stealthy, and given the witch elf decision, this is actually believable.

Someone mentioned that he doubted Mythic read the fansite forums and if they did, they wouldn't care. That maybe true, but how is that meant to allay people's disappointment with Mythic? In an attempt to defend the stealth decision and put "whiners" in their place, it effectively criticises Mythic for not caring about what their consumers think and not even making basic attempts to do market research.

So I really don't understand how there is so much flaming and debate going on. The facts are very clear, and the only issue is how much it matters to each of us that mythic are thinking about doing a complete about-face on their "NO STEALTH!" key feature, and how much the integrity of the warhammer lore matters to us and our perception of the game. Like I said, these are very personal opinions, and are not worthy of flaming between people. I don't hold that lore should be reversed and destroyed in order to appease people who like WoW rogues, I don't agree that they should do whatever they want to lore in order to appeal to more people, lest we see pokemon in the game "because a lot of kids like it", I don't think the decision is the only choice available to get these 2 classes into melee range, but I am not going to resort to flaming others if they do like stealth, or if they don't care what is done to the lore, if they do want Gandalf to make an ingame appearance, if they want pokemon as a playable class, as it purely personal preference.

TLDR version: there is no need to some of the arguments and personal attacks that have occured, the facts are clear, the only differences is how much each of us cares about lore destruction, promoted feature reversal and common sense, which being individual's, are guaranteed to be different levels of care factor. So, relaaaaax.

[Zoatibix]

Think of it as the Blood Priest thing they did. Josh said "There will be no Blood Priest in WAR."

See, that's actually a form o lying. Calling a duck something else does't stop it being a duck.

They put stealth in to appeal to the masses....

Great...well when we are up to our knees in the WoW kiddies that some of the WAR fanboys has so long derided we will know to thank Mythic. Yes, I realise you think you are talking about 'Gamers' with a captial 'Gee' and that they are highly skilled semi-professional players but guess what...WAR is the hot next thing for a lot of WoW people...

...Mythic aren't targetting 'Gamers' by introducing stealth on a near naked sexy elf chick...they are targetting they WoW kiddies...they are coming to your precious game and once they get here they will start whining...

Sure, some will go back to WoW...many won't.

[Xurré]

Think of it as the Blood Priest thing they did. Josh said "There will be no Blood Priest in WAR." And he is right, there isn't a class called a Blood Priest in WAR.
Don't get me started on that. That was the second most despicable thing any dev has ever said (the first being dismissing any possible complaints, valid or not, off-hand with a laughing "the same five people on the Internet losing their minds", which interestingly enough was said by the same dev). :mad:


- Xurré

[Thrakkesh]

I'm gonna go ahead and join the chorus of "Wow. It's dumb."

and not for the reasons everyone's been touting. Consider this. The reason they didn't want an Assassin class in game. was because of Stealth. That was the reasoning they gave. They did not want a Rogue.

That was the exact answer we got. Assassin = Stealth Class. Stealth class = no.

and than they... turn around and make Witch Elves a stealth class?

What...? seriously? Come on. Now we just know you're making it up as you go along. There is literally... and I mean literally A Druchii stealth class that uses poisons, stealth, and combat drugs. Right there.

Forget the whole changing lore thing for the sake of a better game. They don't have to change anything. It's RIGHT THERE. We even know they thought of it at one point because we saw the freaking placeholders. But instead we're going to... shoehorn an exisisting class into it...? Why? What sense does that even make? It's like turning Chaos Chosen into a healbot class. Why even bother making it a chosen? No, it's not even like that, because Chaos healers don't exist. Druchii assassin/rogue styles exist.

I'm gonna go ahead and say it. The Dark Elf character classes are uninspired and feel pretty freaking thrown together. it's not game-breaking for me. (Big surprise, I'm a Chaos fan) but it just seems lazy to me. Lazy and frankly, a bit schizophrenic.

[YajoojMajooj]

its not only WE that mythic is ruining .... they are ruining other classes too ....e.g : witch hunter ..... and what about the disciple wtf is that??? and white lion with a PET???? WTF m8..... no sorry WTF MYTHIC? what is going on with this game ???? the more time they keep asking us to wait the worse this game is becoming ...... and stealth???? WTF the reason we cant be dark elf assassins is cuz there was no stealth in this game and now the least stealthy class of the druchi is suppose to freakin stealth????
we demand a dev to answer this post in fact answer us all ..... what is going on with eh classes and for me the main reason coming to this game is the LORE and mythic is going too far with LORE BENDING.

[Dukha]

Think of it as the Blood Priest thing they did. Josh said "There will be no Blood Priest in WAR." And he is right, there isn't a class called a Blood Priest in WAR. But there is a class called a Disciple of Khaine that plays like what a Blood Priest was supposed to play. So he never lied, there isn't one if you look at it in black and white, but there is one if you look deeper.
Sorry but a lie is a lie, no matter how you dress it up. I wont say that this is the case with stealth but it most definetly is with the above example. Which in my book is an all time low. That comment should never have been made.

EDIT: Okay fair enough so the laugh followed by the comment about "the same five people..." wins the big one. My misstake.

[Zoatibix]

Not much at all I bet, particularly considering that their connection to being male-only is a particularly tenuous one. There’s one reference in a old sourcebook that mentions that male babies are stolen on Death Night to be thrown in the Cauldron


No, Assassins have always been male only. It is mentioned in the current WHFB DE Army book.

Still, I think it less of a stretch to the Lore than sneaky WE.

[Xurré]

No, Assassins have always been male only. It is mentioned in the current WHFB DE Army book.
I'm fairly certain that it is not specifically mentioned in the current army book. Unless I'm missing something somewhere, the current description for Assassins reads:

During the revelries of the Death Night, the Witch Elves roam the streets of our cities, and all who cross their path are offerings to Khaine. Amongst those taken are young babes, who are offered up to the Lord of Murder in the Cauldron of Blood. Most perish, but those chosen by Khaine emerge unharmed, and are then initiated in the dark secrets of Khaine. They are raised to be Dark Elf Assassins, the masters of death and the bringers of oblivion.

All Assassins follow one of the aspects of Khaine, the thousand-faced god of murder, and under his patronage their powers grow unrivalled by mere mortals. They become masters of the martial arts and learn the power of poisons. They are one of the most potent tools in the armoury of the itch King, and those lords foolish enough to question their loyalty to Malekith disappear swiftly.

Each Assassin strives to become more like our god. The rivalry between Assassins is fierce, and all of them are constantly developing new killing techniques. There are no greater warriors amongst all Elvenkind than the Adepts of Khaine.
That's it. No mention of them being male only, no mention of why they should be male only. Just that they're babes taken who survive the Cauldron and are trained as Assassins.

Now, the older soucebooks makes specific mention of them being male babes taken. But even there they don't explain why they should be male-only and why there can't be female Assassins (Witch Elves on the other hand are continually referred to as "brides" and "maidens" and such, making it clear why they should be female-only).

As such, while I agree that there is lore to say that they are male-only, it's a very tenuous requirement and as such can be easily ignored (or more broadly interpreted) without changing the flavor and the style of the class at all (after all, when they're wrapped in their Assassin garb you can't see the difference anyway :p).


- Xurré

[Zoatibix]

Lol, I'm sure we've discussed this point before. I don't have my book with me but will check later.

It's quite possible I'm getting versions mixed up...as the decades roll by they start to bleed together...;)

[Anglakhel]

No, Assassins have always been male only. It is mentioned in the current WHFB DE Army book.

Still, I think it less of a stretch to the Lore than sneaky WE.

Xurre is right.

The Cauldron story doesn't exist in older editions. Instead we're told that Witch Elves deliberately kidnap male children on Death Night that the Temple will train as Assassins. No Cauldron involved for the Assassins.

In the sixth edition we get the Cauldron story added to the Assassin background. But in this case we are never told that Assassins are always male. We're just told that any infants that the Witch Elves kidnap are thrown into the Cauldron and if they survive they are considered marked by Khaine and trained as Assassins.

So, the door seems open for female Assassins in the sixth edition, although the assumption is easy to make that they are only male since in earlier editions we are told that the Witch Elves only kidnap men to become Assassins. Certainly in WAR, with the Cauldron story being expanded to include the Disciples of Khaine, which can be male and female, we can assume that Assassins can be male and female.

The Cauldron story is often thought to apply to Witch Elves, with boys becoming Assassins and girls becoming Witch Elves, but that isn't present in any of the editions that I have access to. Rather, the Witch Elves are chosen on merit, and likely at a much older age, and not the product of the Cauldrons.

[pzykozis]

I actually think xurre and zoatibix are onto something if the witch elf is becoming the assassin which would appear to be so they mayaswell just change the class to assassin after all the only reason they didn't have assassins in the first place is because they had stealth, not a problem now.

[Zoatibix]

"The Witch Elves steal away male children to raise in the temples to be assassins..."
- pg173, WHFB Main Rulebook, current edition.

I knew I remembered it from somewhere :D

However, with Disciples of Khaine springing out of the Cauldron all of a sudden, I dont' think a few female assassins are going to make much difference.

[pzykozis]

perhaps in the first expansion they'll release the assassin class and they wont have stealth in fact they'll be male only wear normal assassin clothes look like an assassin smell like an assassin (must be assassin for the dark crystal reference) but run around screaming like a frenzy mad person who sticks knives in your eyes for kicks.

[Hoodwink]

It's like Iron Man -- my all-time favorite superhero, coming to theaters near you on May 2. I am excited as heck to go see the movie. Have they "adapted" elements of the Iron Man story to the big screen and modern-day times, changing some fundamental parts of the story and aspects of the character? Absolutely. Will I still go see the movie, enjoy it immensely, and gleefully drool the whole time as I see my hero brought to life? ABSOLUTELY!

But did you know that in the movie instead of making an awesome set of armor your hero instead developed a cloaking device?

Don't trust the trailers, those were just early versions of the movie. Iron Man is still called Iron Man, he just fights evil by being invisible instead of being clad in bad- armor.

[baso]

Man, these forums will never accept the stealth I love.

Not to start flame war on me but none of you are going to discuss how you hope that stealth fighting in WAR will be and how you will use it with the group or if this is a good solo PvP class because of stealth, but keep continue about how it doesnt fit the witch elves right? :confused:

I feel alone.....

[Dukha]

Not to worry mate, actually most of my posts in regards to this is about the actual gameplay and I do believe that plenty of people focus on that aspect alone. Besides, Witches dont sneak about, thats not even debatable really ;)

But if you do wanna talk about how great it will be to sneak around...

<hoists up a flamethrower>

...then go right ahead. I dont mind at all :twisted:

<lights the muzzle>

[Emeraldw99]

But did you know that in the movie instead of making an awesome set of armor your hero instead developed a cloaking device?

Don't trust the trailers, those were just early versions of the movie. Iron Man is still called Iron Man, he just fights evil by being invisible instead of being clad in bad- armor.

Thats not a fair comparison, as witch Elves still have their strong close combat abilities, this is just a way for them to get to their target, thats all.

to make it more accurate, Iron man would have that, as well as his normal abilities, which still fits Iron man.

[Thrakkesh]

Thats not a fair comparison, as witch Elves still have their strong close combat abilities, this is just a way for them to get to their target, thats all.

to make it more accurate, Iron man would have that, as well as his normal abilities, which still fits Iron man.

There are better ways to do this, one that would be more in keeping with a Witch Elf by ANY stretch of the imagination. Charge mechanics, agile leaping mechanics, tumbling mechanics, speed buffs, etc, etc, etc...

What this fits is what they literally REFUSED to do earlier, to the chagrin of many players. The Assassin.

I reiterate.

What class would stealth fit? Assassin.

What class would poisons work for? Assassin.

What class would match the idea mechanic of 'striking while hidden at a key point, assassination style?" Assassin.

Would combat drugs work for Assassin? yes.

Would Stealth work for an Assassin? Yes.
Does the Witch Elf 'class' at this point literally sound like an Assassin in almost every way? Hilariously, yes. Begging the question--why do they insist on sticking with the image of the Witch Elf?

Every one of these mechanics was shot down nearly 6-8 months ago, with the logic that Stealth had no place in WAR. We heard them re-iterate, over and over again. Now here it is, and what do they do? They shoe-horn it onto an exisisting concept.

I don't care what you say about 'changing lore'. This is frankly, lazy. They had placeholders for Assassin, this we know. It was a design choice at some point, we know as much. I ask, again, what purpose does it serve shoe-horning it onto a pre-exisisting idea, when previously the point of making it a Witch Elf was to avoid stealth-based DPS.

It's hap-hazard and lazy no matter how you cut it, and hilariously, more cliche than even the 'Elven Rogue'. In fact it's literally barely a Witch elf anymore, just a half naked Elven Rogue, like we've never seen that one before. Hell, the mechanics now sound suspiciously like WoW Rogues. Blood-points (combo point system), stealth, all pretty similar.

I don't know, I'm truthfully more annoyed that they went to all the trouble of saying "No stealth in WAR!" again, and again, and again, and than suddenly went back on their word. Worse yet, they don't want to go to the trouble of going back to formula, so we get something that is, frankly, just dumb.

[Noli me Tangere]

Thats not a fair comparison, as witch Elves still have their strong close combat abilities, this is just a way for them to get to their target, thats all.

Drugged up and poisoned, gone mad, absolutely furious whirlwinds of unstoppable frenzied sharp objects and horrific screams that tear people limb from limb and bathe in blood.. are not stealthy.

They are not anything like a stealth class, at all, in the least, in fact. Thusly, stealth.. does not work for them..

[Kharlene]

There are better ways to do this, one that would be more in keeping with a Witch Elf by ANY stretch of the imagination. Charge mechanics, agile leaping mechanics, tumbling mechanics, speed buffs, etc, etc, etc...

What this fits is what they literally REFUSED to do earlier, to the chagrin of many players. The Assassin.

I reiterate.

What class would stealth fit? Assassin.

What class would poisons work for? Assassin.

What class would match the idea mechanic of 'striking while hidden at a key point, assassination style?" Assassin.

Would combat drugs work for Assassin? yes.

Would Stealth work for an Assassin? Yes.
Does the Witch Elf 'class' at this point literally sound like an Assassin in almost every way? Hilariously, yes. Begging the question--why do they insist on sticking with the image of the Witch Elf?

Every one of these mechanics was shot down nearly 6-8 months ago, with the logic that Stealth had no place in WAR. We heard them re-iterate, over and over again. Now here it is, and what do they do? They shoe-horn it onto an exisisting concept.

I don't care what you say about 'changing lore'. This is frankly, lazy. They had placeholders for Assassin, this we know. It was a design choice at some point, we know as much. I ask, again, what purpose does it serve shoe-horning it onto a pre-exisisting idea, when previously the point of making it a Witch Elf was to avoid stealth-based DPS.

It's hap-hazard and lazy no matter how you cut it, and hilariously, more cliche than even the 'Elven Rogue'. In fact it's literally barely a Witch elf anymore, just a half naked Elven Rogue, like we've never seen that one before. Hell, the mechanics now sound suspiciously like WoW Rogues. Blood-points (combo point system), stealth, all pretty similar.

I don't know, I'm truthfully more annoyed that they went to all the trouble of saying "No stealth in WAR!" again, and again, and again, and than suddenly went back on their word. Worse yet, they don't want to go to the trouble of going back to formula, so we get something that is, frankly, just dumb.

This actually touches upon my point (while covering plenty of areas I never thought of), and why I think this whole stealth non-sense is a tacked on thing rather than some planned conspiracy from the get go. A lot of these changes and sudden developments are so scattered and unorganized with the most thoughtless explanations as to why they were done in the first place. It's so erratic that, I find it entirely implausible that it was something methodically done. More just something that comes across as, "Well, we screwed up here, but when need to do this here, so let's just throw that there, and make up for this here, and finish it up quick so we can move on to something else!", that's what it all just seems like to me.

Some of these "re-iterations", "revisions", and "changes" just make me roll my eyes and shrug just thinking "Whatever... as long as it plays well...", which is why I for the most part just shrug it off, with every MMO I've followed during its development, consistency is the last thing I expect, and I didn't expect much of it from WAR, especially having watched DAoC simultaneously evolve beautifully some areas and utterly regress in others. I remember when they were saying there was no stealth in WAR a looooooooong time ago (must've been at least over a year ago), and thought to myself, "Well, let's see them hold onto this claim...", and now they're testing it (though for a long while I hoped otherwise and awaited for exacting, tangible proof of its existence). In all honesty I don't expect it to stay there, but at the same time I'm not going to be surprised if it does.

[Emeraldw99]

Drugged up and poisoned, gone mad, absolutely furious whirlwinds of unstoppable frenzied sharp objects and horrific screams that tear people limb from limb and bathe in blood.. are not stealthy.

They are not anything like a stealth class, at all, in the least, in fact. Thusly, stealth.. does not work for them..

That wasn't my point. My comment was more about the idea that witch elves will be weaker in game due to having stealth, which they will not.

I also find complaining about this unnecessary as it is still in beta and such things can change quickly without notice.

However as if it still goes through, while it does fit assassins better, they are not in the game. So I ask "is it really that unusual for Witch Elves to sneak up?" In the case of orks, I would say, hell no. However, while Witch Elves are described as such, it is also an exaggeration. A unit of Witch Elves might be like that, but a single lone Elf? I would imagine even a Witch Elf would sneak around to get kills, it's just general tactics and thinking. Especially for something as long lived and nimble as an elf.

[Thrakkesh]

That wasn't my point. My comment was more about the idea that witch elves will be weaker in game due to having stealth, which they will not.

I also find complaining about this unnecessary as it is still in beta and such things can change quickly without notice.

However as if it still goes through, while it does fit assassins better, they are not in the game. So I ask "is it really that unusual for Witch Elves to sneak up?" In the case of orks, I would say, hell no. However, while Witch Elves are described as such, it is also an exaggeration. A unit of Witch Elves might be like that, but a single lone Elf? I would imagine even a Witch Elf would sneak around to get kills, it's just general tactics and thinking. Especially for something as long lived and nimble as an elf.

Noooo, the beta is the perfect time to complain. It is in fact, the time when complaining is encouraged. It represents a time when the game is in flux, and when an idea we find collectively distasteful can be voiced and still see time to change. Just because we haven't got a golden ticket doesn't mean we can't react to something. I should hope that people under NDA are just as annoyed, frankly, but Mythic would do well to heed the opinions of its potential player base.

Also, the explanation you give has a paper-thin, flimsy premise. By your logic, every Dark Elf class currently in game would find prudence in 'sneaking around'. Let's just.. give them all stealth than! No, of course not. The Witch Elf is the only 'sneaky' elf currently in there. I have issues with 'sneakies' to begin with.

[Heretic]

* Edited for Content *

[Zoatibix]

My comment was more about the idea that witch elves will be weaker in game due to having stealth, which they will not.

...However, while Witch Elves are described as such, it is also an exaggeration. A unit of Witch Elves might be like that, but a single lone Elf?

You are kind of addressing two of my three concerns here.

The first is the mechanics. Stealth gets them to the target. Possibly lets them kill him, agreed...what keeps the WE alive after the stealth?

The second point I've picked out deals with flavour. Witch Elves are like that on the battlefield, whether there is one of them or a score. They are drugged up to the eyeballs on hallucinogenics. Their god is telling them to 'Kill! Kill! Kill!'

While there may not be other Witch Elves on the battlefield there will be other Druchii (or allied) warriors charging towards the enemy. Seeing that is likely to get our drugged up little lass charging towards the enemy.

Not being able to restrain themselves is one of the WE's key characteristics - that and their look are what clearly seperate them from the rest of the Druchii army.

[Morelius]

Edit: My post no longer makes sense now, as it has been edited, and the quotes from Heretic were removed. He said he wishes he could have a game that doesn't cater to bullies and allow stealth. I used to think that *Edited for content* meant someone wrote someone really bad, or abusive, but having seen the post before it got edited has left me wondering whats going on here. I've even had my posts edited for using green text, making me wonder why there is the option for colored text... :S

*Quote removed for reasons unknown*

Excellent, honest and to the point. I try to be nice and eloquent, but this is a great post that says what many of us think, straight up. Well done.

On a side note, can we agree to stop calling it stealth though? It is pure invisibility.

Stealth and sneaking involve some skill, hiding behind things, moving quietly and discreetly. MMORPG "stealth" is invisibility for those who do not have the mental capacity nor skill to move in such a manner. As the above poster mentioned, he stealthed up on others as a mage (and not using invisibility one assumes) by using his own skill and strategy as a player. If game makers want stealth in a game, then let them make it so it involves some skill, I dunno, make it so the name plate disappears, some small degree of transparency and crouching occurs, make the transparency increase depending on darkness or lessen if more light, make certain colored or clothlike gear contribute to this transparency, but above all, make it so it takes some EFFORT and THOUGHT on behalf of the player, having to pick their path, hide behind things, stick to shadows etc. This would be an interesting and enjoyable way of stealthing, like in the game Thief, but would involve showing some thought beyond cloning WoW's mechanics unfortunately. None of that pure invisibility "I'm 5 metres in front of you in the open on a sunny day and you cannot see me" crap that mmorpgs claim is being sneaky. This kind of skill-less invisibility appeals to skill-less people who want auto-win gankage.


Requoted for emphasis:
*Quote removed for reasons unknown*



Edit: And Beta, as stated earlier, IS the time to mention our disappointment with stealth. If we keep quiet, and then mention we are all against it when the game comes out, its a little too late to change it by then obviously. Its kinda like watching the painters with their color cards of red but not saying anything, watching them go to store and buy red paint and keeping quiet, watch them paint your house red and still keep quiet, and then say, "Actually, I never wanted red, I wanted blue, I'm disappointed you went red." Hardly the smartest approach to take.

[Noli me Tangere]

I would imagine even a Witch Elf would sneak around to get kills, it's just general tactics and thinking. Especially for something as long lived and nimble as an elf.

I don't see how you could interpret:

"Drugged up and poisoned, gone mad, absolutely furious whirlwinds of unstoppable frenzied sharp objects and horrific screams that tear people limb from limb and bathe in blood.."

.. as something could be stealthy.

They are blood thirsty fanatics. They don't sneak up on you. They tear into a crowd of enemies and kill and kill and kill and kill and kill until either their body gives out, they get killed or everyone else is dead, the Witch Elf standing in the midst of the mass grave soaked in blood, spattered in gore..

-

Let's keep it clarified though, I never wanted to see stealth in this game and Mythic were vocal about not having stealth at all for the longest time. But in terms of what a Witch elf is, just read up:

Amongst the Dark Elves, there is a warrior sisterhood known as the Witch Elves, and they are the most cruel and bloodthirsty of their people. They are all pledged as mistresses to Khaine, Lord of Murder -- their name for the Chaos God, Khorne. After each battle, they choose victims to sacrifice to Khaine, and bathe in their blood, renewing their pact with the Lord of Murder.

Whereas most Dark Elves might regard their lot in life with some solemnity, Witch Elves throw themselves into the open maw of death and destruction with wild abandon. They eschew the "false comforts" of armor, and drink hallucinogenic potions that send them into wild frenzies. Those inducted into their number are stolen as infants and raised either to join the number of the Witch Elves, or to die in failure as victims of their bloodlust.

In short, Witch Elves are among the most vile of mortals in the Warhammer World.


For all intensive purposes, a Witch Elf is a drug induced berserker, they go berserk. People caught up in a berserk frenzy of screaming mindless blood lust are simply not stealthy, no matter how you turn it. :razz:

[pzykozis]

I don't see how you could interpret:

"Drugged up and poisoned, gone mad, absolutely furious whirlwinds of unstoppable frenzied sharp objects and horrific screams that tear people limb from limb and bathe in blood.."

.. as something could be stealthy.

They are blood thirsty fanatics. They don't sneak up on you. They tear into a crowd of enemies and kill and kill and kill and kill and kill until either their body gives out, they get killed or everyone else is dead, the Witch Elf standing in the midst of the mass grave soaked in blood, spattered in gore..

-

Let's keep it clarified though, I never wanted to see stealth in this game and Mythic were vocal about not having stealth at all for the longest time. But in terms of what a Witch elf is, just read up:



For all intensive purposes, a Witch Elf is a drug induced berserker, they go berserk. People caught up in a berserk frenzy of screaming mindless blood lust are simply not stealthy, no matter how you turn it. :razz:


where did you get that quote that stated Khaine = Khorne, though there is similarities the two are completely different gods.

But, agreed about stealth doesn't make sense in the same sentence as witch elf

[Zoatibix]

It is possible that Khaine is Khorne with a different hat on. False nose, glasses, that kind of thing.

Gods and identities...is a tricky area....

[Noli me Tangere]

where did you get that quote that stated Khaine = Khorne, though there is similarities the two are completely different gods.

Bit off topic.. but..

Easy enough to disregard, as Dark Elves would, obviously violently dispute the idea. However, it has been implied that they are either one in the same, or that Khaine is an aspect of Khorne before.

That's technical stuff though, and not the heart of the quote. I could see why an outsider might see them as one in the same, or Khaine as an aspect. I'd have a hard time accepting it if, say, a Witch Elf said it. They would be, as you noted, considered completely different gods.

[Emeraldw99]

I don't see how you could interpret:

"Drugged up and poisoned, gone mad, absolutely furious whirlwinds of unstoppable frenzied sharp objects and horrific screams that tear people limb from limb and bathe in blood.."

.. as something could be stealthy.

They are blood thirsty fanatics. They don't sneak up on you. They tear into a crowd of enemies and kill and kill and kill and kill and kill until either their body gives out, they get killed or everyone else is dead, the Witch Elf standing in the midst of the mass grave soaked in blood, spattered in gore..

-

Let's keep it clarified though, I never wanted to see stealth in this game and Mythic were vocal about not having stealth at all for the longest time. But in terms of what a Witch elf is, just read up:



For all intensive purposes, a Witch Elf is a drug induced berserker, they go berserk. People caught up in a berserk frenzy of screaming mindless blood lust are simply not stealthy, no matter how you turn it. :razz:


I am taking a certain logical leap about them. Descriptions like the one you mention describe how they are from a distance. Upon closer inspection, you always find more than a simple description describes. Witch Elves may be dangerous and want to kill, but they aren't stupid and charging in blindly with no armor hoping to get a few kills on a group of people is. Orcs would gladly do that, because they are brutes with the sophistication of a rock. Elves are not. For example it says your a drug induced berserker, but is it so hard to imagine they snuck to up said group, jumped in the middle and THEN when crazy? No it's not. They don't have armor and chose that, so from a practical stand point, such stealth might be a necessity. Also, they are not unbreakable and happy to die, otherwise we would see an indication of such in the TT. They are still mortal and any mortal, when faced with the prospect of dying will still flee or use a way to prevent dying. Even Orks still flee and they are more happy to die than almost any Elf.

My point, is that there is a sort of "leap of faith" when reading lore. We can assume they are drugged up crazy killing machines, but it makes no mention of how a single, lone witch elf would deal with a situation. I would imagine they could potentially sneak up to a target and then willingly consume their drugs to kill their enemies. Also we cannot practically assume they are drugged up at all times. It must be a choice for when.

[Alota]

I am taking a certain logical leap about them. Descriptions like the one you mention describe how they are from a distance. Upon closer inspection, you always find more than a simple description describes. Witch Elves may be dangerous and want to kill, but they aren't stupid and charging in blindly with no armor hoping to get a few kills on a group of people is. Orcs would gladly do that, because they are brutes with the sophistication of a rock. Elves are not. For example it says your a drug induced berserker, but is it so hard to imagine they snuck to up said group, jumped in the middle and THEN when crazy? No it's not. They don't have armor and chose that, so from a practical stand point, such stealth might be a necessity. Also, they are not unbreakable and happy to die, otherwise we would see an indication of such in the TT. They are still mortal and any mortal, when faced with the prospect of dying will still flee or use a way to prevent dying. Even Orks still flee and they are more happy to die than almost any Elf.

My point, is that there is a sort of "leap of faith" when reading lore. We can assume they are drugged up crazy killing machines, but it makes no mention of how a single, lone witch elf would deal with a situation. I would imagine they could potentially sneak up to a target and then willingly consume their drugs to kill their enemies. Also we cannot practically assume they are drugged up at all times. It must be a choice for when.

Well, if we're gonna use TT rules here, Witch Elves got Frenzy. Frenzy means that they must charge the nearest opponent (in lore, they're filled with bloodlust and want to slaughter in the name of Khaine) and the first time they lose combat, they don't run away, they just lose frenzy. When they're near a cauldron though, they can regain the lost frenzy or if close enough when beaten they won't even lose their frenzy.

Why is the mechanic this way? Because frenzy means someone wants to slaughter, and only when they lose combat they realize there needs a change of plans, but they're already in the midst of combat so sneaking won't help them in any way (and they wouldn't sneak anyways as that's not their style) They would or keep on fighting or they would run away, regroup and charge again. They're not about sneaking to an opponent, they're about rushing towards them. In frenzy state they don't care about their lives, they just want to kill kill kill and bathe in the blood of their victims. Ow, plus Frenzy needed balancing, thus they lose it when they lost the combat.

But that's the TT mechanic, although it does reflect the nature of Witch Elves, in lore they would probably stay in a frenzy even when they're losing. In lore they're merciless killer machines who want to kill everything in their path in the name of Khaine. They leave the sneakyness to the Assassins.

Edit: To answer the 'what would a Witch Elf do if not drugged' question, it's easy: Witch Elves always drug themselves before battle. In WAR, they instantly go into a battle, meaning they will use the drugs immediatly. And even if they're not drugged, they still got their bloodlust, and when a Witch Elf smells blood, you just know she will go beserk. Also, they want the opponents to see them coming, so that they can bring fear. When they go sneaky it takes away that fear, as you can't fear something you can't see coming towards you.

[Noli me Tangere]

I am taking a certain logical leap about them. Descriptions like the one you mention describe how they are from a distance. Upon closer inspection, you always find more than a simple description describes. Witch Elves may be dangerous and want to kill, but they aren't stupid and charging in blindly with no armor hoping to get a few kills on a group of people is. Orcs would gladly do that, because they are brutes with the sophistication of a rock. Elves are not.

"Whereas most Dark Elves might regard their lot in life with some solemnity, Witch Elves throw themselves into the open maw of death and destruction with wild abandon."

In short, they aren't like other Dark Elves.

They fling themselves with wild abandon into battle, in a state of unstoppable frenzy. They fight and the kill and they keep on killing until their bodies give out, they die or they manage to kill every last one of their enemies.

For example it says your a drug induced berserker, but is it so hard to imagine they snuck to up said group, jumped in the middle and THEN when crazy?

Yes, it is.

Like others in dark elf culture, killing is an artform for them, and dark elves are often as likely to kill friend as foe. This is even more true of a Witch Elf that's worked themselves up into a frenzy. This doesn't suggest the sort of personality that sneaks up behind you and takes the time to pump themselves full of drugs while working themselves up into a rage.. before doing the killing.

Anyways, you'd think someone might, you know, hear you doing all that.

No it's not. They don't have armor and chose that, so from a practical stand point, such stealth might be a necessity. Also, they are not unbreakable and happy to die, otherwise we would see an indication of such in the TT. Yes, they are happy to die.

They are not unbreakable though, their drugged frenzy puts them in such a state that they'll go in and keep fighting regardless of the wounds. Their body might give out in the middle of it. Even if they survive they could potentially die from their wounds.

But they aren't thinking about any of that. Mostly they're thinking they want to rip your spine out and beat your friend to death with it.


And there's never been any indication in any lore, book or anything in the TT, that the Witch Elves are stealthers.

They are still mortal and any mortal, when faced with the prospect of dying will still flee or use a way to prevent dying. Even Orks still flee and they are more happy to die than almost any Elf.
"Witch Elves throw themselves into the open maw of death and destruction with wild abandon."

Wild! :p Nuts! :confused: Bonkers! :eek: Gonzo! :rolleyes:

My point, is that there is a sort of "leap of faith" when reading lore. We can assume they are drugged up crazy killing machines,Because they are drugged up frenzied killing machines. :D

but it makes no mention of how a single, lone witch elf would deal with a situation.With wild Abandon! :D

They shrug off the false comforts of armor, and drink hallucinogenic potions that send them into wild frenzies.They either come out of battle, soaked in blood, dripping pieces of gore or they die in failure as victims of their bloodlust.

They don't think of it beyond wanting your blood. Bloodlust. Right out of the lore. They live and they die by blood. They live and die for murder. They live and die for a god of murder.

I would imagine they could potentially sneak up to a target and then willingly consume their drugs to kill their enemies. Also we cannot practically assume they are drugged up at all times. It must be a choice for when.It is a choice for when. Before battle. They run into the fray. They don't sneak up behind their target, and then, as the mass slaughter is going on all around them, take the time to take their potions out, drink them, and work themselves up into a frenzy.

That seems just.. like a horrible idea in fact. I hadn't actually thought of it in that context. But the image of the witch elf standing behind someone unseen, and then taking the time to drug themselves up on hallucinogens and work themselves up into a frenzy.. just.. is one of more nonsensical things I've imagined. :\

They are not stealthers. They do not stealth. It's just that simple. There's just really nothing to support nor suggest it even as a remote possibility. So that that's where they may go with this.. just seems.. sad, from a lore perspective.

Alota (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/member.php?u=18300)'s post above mine has plenty of good example, in addition to any of that, just in case you've missed it. :)

[Zoatibix]

The drugs help the WE work themselves into a kind of religious ecstasy,they don't have an instant effect.

Besides, why is a lone stone-cold sober Dark Elf going to sneak into the middle of an enemy camp? Surely is she is smart she's going to wait for back up?

[Murder]

They just put it one section too low.


- Xurré
We can see your name whenever you post, my friend.

[Fellblight]

why dont we all just assume there will be a cut scene when you start the game as a witch elf showing your character getting beaten in combat an thus losing her frenzy :p

***edit*** also from what i hear a big part of being on drugs is knowing when to hide!!

[craptacular]

Stealth is a great thing. it adds an extra, sometimes psychological, thrill to gameplay.

We're just scared of it because WoW dealt with it in an absolutely retarded way.

On a side note, this is actually quite fortunate for me, as perhaps the ONLY class/classes that i wasn't interested in was Witch Elf (and witch hunter, i'm assuming thats confirmed too?). Now i have something to look forward to in those classes.

[Noli me Tangere]

Stealth is a great thing. it adds an extra, sometimes psychological, thrill to gameplay.

Well, a great thing is debatable. I'm pretty sure that one's all up into the perception area of things.

I personally always thought a stealth based on something more tangible would be fine, but the version of stealth MMO's tend to use (standing 6 feet in front of me in an open field with no cover, and yet this class that lacks any magic whatsoever is somehow invisible..) has always just annoying, rather than thrilling.

We're just scared of it because WoW dealt with it in an absolutely retarded way.

Likes/Dislikes about stealth aside, I'd be willing to give stealth a chance if it fit the Witch Elf in any way, shape or form - but it doesn't, for reasons covered again and again.. and again ad infinitum (lore and otherwise).

-

Now, separate issue, the stealth itself. Why is stealth disliked, and yet liked all at once? People that play the stealthing classes tend to like it, and it's useful for those whom the stealther is helping. My problem, and I cannot speak for everyone, with stealth has only partially to do with WoW, the other part being my experience with stealth in every single MMO that has had stealth.

And my experience has been that no developer has ever found a happy balance with the mechanic, they've always had the problem of Stealth either being far too powerful or Stealth classes being so ineffective as to be worth the effort. No matter the developer and no matter the game, this has been something perceived by not only some factions of players, but even by some developers, some of whom have verbally noted that they never should have added it.

On a side note, this is actually quite fortunate for me, as perhaps the ONLY class/classes that i wasn't interested in was Witch Elf (and witch hunter, i'm assuming thats confirmed too?). Now i have something to look forward to in those classes.

I do believe there was some reference to the Witch Hunter, yes. If that's so, then glad it's working out for you.

[Ikego]

if Witch Elves are getting a stealth mechanic to some degree, meaning that they'll be invisible to other players for a duration... that will increase the popularity of the Witch Elf and Witch Hunters ten fold. If stealth has an unlimited time duration, they'll be the most popular classes in the game easily. They'll each be the only class per faction that can stealth... and that will draw some major attention (especially from the many griefers).

INCOMING RANT ON STEALTH, BEWARE!

I hope if there's a stealth mechanic it's of limited duration. I have developed pure hatred for stealth classes over the years. Assassin, "Now that i've been following you around invisible for 10 minutes... you're finally low on health, out of mana, and have a mob on you all at once. Time to attack!" It takes no skill to kick a man when he's down, as a result many players make this their entire game. Why? It doesn't take gear, or skill, or coordination, or intelligence (all the reasons I play MMOs) ... just takes a couple minutes of patience to kill whoever they want. It's the easiest way to PvP because stealth allows you to stack the deck in your favor as much as you have patience for. No matter how crappy at the game you are, there's no one you can't 1 shot if you stealth around a while and wait for their health to get low enough... all the while that player is completely unaware. There's something fundamentally disgusting about that.

Obviously this is a fantasy world, like all MMO's... so trying to apply worldly logic to it doesn't always add up. But let me ask this, How in the hell can someone sneak up on you when you're standing in an open field in daylight?! It makes no sense!!!

I was so pleased that WAR wasn't going to have any stealth :mad:....... The entire stealth mechanic only serves those who want to avoid all the due consequences of attacking another player. Anyone else who wants to go on a rampage has to face the music when they're seen approaching, or if they run out of space to flee, or if they're spotted later on. Stealth allows players to just move to a different location to grief somebody else if there's danger; zero consequence. That, is garbage.

I've always played on open pvp servers, just for reference to my frustration. Over the span of multiple MMOs, and a disturbing amount of PvP achievements (more than i'd ever admit to anyone irl), i'm just as helpless against stealth griefers as the first day I ever played. What are really your choices? 1) Try to find the assassin, ha... good luck. 2) everything you do is with a partner/group, because that's realistic =P or 3) change zones everytime you encounter a stealth griefer, that's really a productive use of playtime; and it's a form of outright defeat by retreat. Those choices are few, and no matter how good at the game you are, or how much gear you have... the choices always stay the exact same because stealth provides all the advantage a player could ever have. They pick when and where a fight is going to happen everytime, and more often than not... they pick a time when it's impossible for you to defend yourself.

If witch elves/hunters get unlimited stealth... i'll be forced to become what i dispise, a stealth class. I refuse to be on the receiving end of that bullhsit in yet another MMO.

Now if stealth in WAR ends up being limited, say... like 20sec stealth ability on a 1min cooldown; that i can handle. Someone sneaking up on me because i wasn't paying close attention and kills me (even if im disadvantaged) I have plenty of patience for, i love to pvp. What i cant handle is when someone follows you around invisible all night ruining your gaming experience because they get a kick out of it.

NO STEALTH IN WAR!!!

**I put this rant in 2 threads, because i hate stealth enough to do that

[Xeiiib]

I read the OP's quote from "News from the Front". The only thing I was thinking about while reading things like :

"Prince!" cried Eldrion's most trusted advisor, Captain Talorith. "Witch Elves close in on us from the east!"

"Their eyes were ablaze with eagerness to spill the blood of their kin."

" The Witch Elves were everywhere now. They had closed in on the Shining Guard from all angles."

was the idea of running ZOMBIES! (with swords and boobs and hotness)

PS: Zombie nightmares ftl -.-

[Dukha]

Hehe, that interpretation was pretty spot on, thank you for that :D

[Poof]

i hate referencing WOW, and it shouldn't be used in most arguments over WAR. Just a thought, but it could be more like WOW's shadow meld and the WE's still could be viable in combat and the stealth could actually be a secondary device (career mastery?), as opposed to there main system of play (whatever it may be).
maybe?
I mean look at the story, the High Elf's saw them from a distance, and the WE's eventually attacked from all sides. Could this maybe be hinting more that stealth is just used to gain access to better focal points on the battlefield with more ease, as opposed to attacking someone from behind?

[Noli me Tangere]

The impression of the story was that they saw them coming from a long way off, and couldn't do anything about it; later they were surrounded and overrun. Not that appeared out of thin air all around them.

[Doc Lumbago]

I´m not that interested in WE or Witch Hunter as career.
So I keep this short.
I m NOT against stealth at all as long as it is restricted in some way ( only invisible when stand still/no attacks or flag taking possible when stealthed and x time after reappearing and so on)
I think stealth doesn´t fit the idea of the WE as a bloodhungry frenzy killer, it´s too tactical.

I think WH and WE are given stealth because of gameplay balance. They´re the least armoured Melee classes and were possibly killed alot of times by nukers before they could even reach their target. hence stealth to sort it out.
switching the WE for an Assassin would have ripped the game of a most iconic class, so they had to make compromises and that´s sometimes the worst of both worlds.

those saying that it is now the time to complain are right. later is the time for crying and whining and calling the developers on their private numbers in the middle of the night:mrgreen:

[WorldOfWaaaghcraft]

As a longtime fan of Druchii, Dark Eldar... mean elves in general, I'm personally thrilled to see Witch Elves given stealth. Now, I'm aware that more than a few of my fellow RPers would disagree; but much like the Disciple's "healing" you have to go into this with an open mind, not just an open mind, but a mind trying to consider how a real person might act in a combat scenario.

I must again draw a distinction between Khorne and Khaine; Khorne is a blood-hungry god whose definition of tactics doesn't go much further than "charge it and hack it apart until it stops moving", while Khaine is a blood-hungry god with peerless cunning and ruthless purpose. One must assume that the Witch Elves would seek to emulate their god; they contain their hatred long enough to fall upon the enemy in a screaming torrent of blades, literally drunk with their bloodlust.

In other words, they use discretion, making their way towards their prey unseen, that they may unleash the full wrath of Khaine on a foe before he is even able to react. Once in combat however, the time for subtlety is over; I doubt Witch Elves will have any kind of "Vanish" ability.

Again, I cannot stress this enough, keep an open mind; if you don't see how a class would have an ability, consider the method, not the result. I could bring up the Disciple of Khaine as an example of this, but I honestly don't feel like dealing with Xurre right now; I'm too tired.

[Thrakkesh]

As a longtime fan of Druchii, Dark Eldar... mean elves in general, I'm personally thrilled to see Witch Elves given stealth. Now, I'm aware that more than a few of my fellow RPers would disagree; but much like the Disciple's "healing" you have to go into this with an open mind, not just an open mind, but a mind trying to consider how a real person might act in a combat scenario.

I must again draw a distinction between Khorne and Khaine; Khorne is a blood-hungry god whose definition of tactics doesn't go much further than "charge it and hack it apart until it stops moving", while Khaine is a blood-hungry god with peerless cunning and ruthless purpose. One must assume that the Witch Elves would seek to emulate their god; they contain their hatred long enough to fall upon the enemy in a screaming torrent of blades, literally drunk with their bloodlust.

In other words, they use discretion, making their way towards their prey unseen, that they may unleash the full wrath of Khaine on a foe before he is even able to react. Once in combat however, the time for subtlety is over; I doubt Witch Elves will have any kind of "Vanish" ability.

Again, I cannot stress this enough, keep an open mind; if you don't see how a class would have an ability, consider the method, not the result. I could bring up the Disciple of Khaine as an example of this, but I honestly don't feel like dealing with Xurre right now; I'm too tired.

The same argument again and again, completely ignoring a very simple fact again and again.

There are two aspects of Khaine given to us since god knows how long, in character terms. The first were Witch Elves--you know, the bloodthirsty beseker-llike women who ran around hacking anything around them to bits? And the stealty, sneaky, murderous Assassin.

I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. They gave a specific reason for not including the Assassin, which was stealth. They are now retro-fitting stealth to the Witch Elf. It's dumb, it's hackeneyed, and it's lazy, and no amount of desperately attempting to rationalize it will change that.

[Dolash]

The same argument again and again, completely ignoring a very simple fact again and again.

There are two aspects of Khaine given to us since god knows how long, in character terms. The first were Witch Elves--you know, the bloodthirsty beseker-llike women who ran around hacking anything around them to bits? And the stealty, sneaky, murderous Assassin.

I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. They gave a specific reason for not including the Assassin, which was stealth. They are now retro-fitting stealth to the Witch Elf. It's dumb, it's hackeneyed, and it's lazy, and no amount of desperately attempting to rationalize it will change that.

I'd like to hear your point, but all I can hear is "I am stubborn as a rock and cannot use reason to solve problems".

[Sgt Mc Badass]

I didn't read the entire 14 pages so i'm sorry if it's been said. I remember reading that all DPS classes would have some way of quickly closing on RDPS i.e. Tentacle Grab for the Marauder. Maybe using stealth will be the Witch Elf way. However i don't really think it would be appropriate, something more like a little speed boost instead.
I think the biggest problem about the whole stealth debate is that people are argueing their own version of stealth. It's not like we're looking at something definite like what a RDPS is and what a Support role is. So when people argue against it they imagine it to be total invulberability and when people argue for it they think of it as something difficult and skillful to pull off. This causes arguement when people say 'oh thats just ganking you noob' where others say 'stfu you don't understand what your talking about', all helpful might i add >.>.
My own opinion is that I don't really have that one as I havn't seen a mechanic where stealth has worked to the majority of gamers satisfaction however I like the idea of 'striking from the shadows' so if anyone could come up with an idea for it being fair and fun then they'd have my full support. So for the moment I can't see it happening.
p.s. when will Noob make it into the english dictionary?

[Feigro]

I think Thrakkesh has a point, Dolash. Perhaps if we could go back in time to the designing of the classes, and Mythic had decided stealth would play a factor then, perhaps they would've chosen Assassins over Witch Elves.

In Which case there's no problem to have such a Rogue-like class.

But I'd agree that if you try to argue it from a thematic and RP/lore perspective. Stealth is simply unfitting to the Witch Elves. They don't calculate, they're pretty much psychotic killing machines that barely hold themselves back from killing their own kind. Being on the battlefield opens the floodgate of frenzy the likes of giving a dog the attack command. They won't stop until it's over or they're told to stop.

Witch Elves' stealth isn't a product of enhancing their character. It's a product of enhancing how their class functions. Thrakkesh was bringing up a circumstance where a character was denied based on the necessity of a mechanic. Now that necessity for the mechanic is being applied to a character whom the mechanic, from a character-perspective, is ill suited for.

It's amazing the details that can get to people, but I can pretty much guarantee half the people in this thread would have no problem with this idea if you just snapped your fingers and it was suddenly an Assassin and not a Witch Elf.

The comparison I like to make from a character point of view is this - Would stealth fit Khorne Warriors? or since you specifically dealt with differences between the two gods, here's the same kind of comparison - would stealth fit imperial Flagellants?

[Noli me Tangere]

I think Thrakkesh has a point, Dolash. Perhaps if we could go back in time to the designing of the classes, and Mythic had decided stealth would play a factor then, perhaps they would've chosen Assassins over Witch Elves.

In Which case there's no problem to have such a Rogue-like class.

But I'd agree that if you try to argue it from a thematic and RP/lore perspective. Stealth is simply unfitting to the Witch Elves. They don't calculate, they're pretty much psychotic killing machines that barely hold themselves back from killing their own kind. Being on the battlefield opens the floodgate of frenzy the likes of giving a dog the attack command. They won't stop until it's over or they're told to stop.

Witch Elves' stealth isn't a product of enhancing their character. It's a product of enhancing how their class functions. Thrakkesh was bringing up a circumstance where a character was denied based on the necessity of a mechanic. Now that necessity for the mechanic is being applied to a character whom the mechanic, from a character-perspective, is ill suited for.

It's amazing the details that can get to people, but I can pretty much guarantee half the people in this thread would have no problem with this idea if you just snapped your fingers and it was suddenly an Assassin and not a Witch Elf.

The comparison I like to make from a character point of view is this - Would stealth fit Khorne Warriors? or since you specifically dealt with differences between the two gods, here's the same kind of comparison - would stealth fit imperial Flagellants?

Some good points in there.

Yes, if they suddenly said it was an Assassin, and not a Witch Elf, and that the Assassin had stealth.. it would be entirely easier to swallow.

Now, thing of note though, you still have the issue of Mythics old "No stealth, at all" statements. There's absolutely no way people that were interested in an RvR MMO with no stealth are going to get used to that over night.

-

Witch Elves and Stealth just don't go together. Witch Elves being built like a rogue class doesn't make any sense either.

-

The truth of the matter is, from a lore perspective, it would be entirely more acceptable to boot the Witch Elf entirely, so that, maybe, it could be implemented properly at another time.

In addition to the stealth issue, implementing Assassins brings in another one. It would create yet another Male only class. The White Lion, if in, has the possibility of being male only as well, though it seems a possibility they might allow for female gender options on that class.

It comes down to the possibility of you having, potentially, 7-8 male only classes total in the game, or, just as bad in a way, classes that the bent the Lore for to give them gender options they don't have in the Lore. We actually saw lore breaking in order to get rid of the gender options in the case of the Chaos Chosen.

The Orcs, luckily, are being kept genderless, but it still lessens the amount of total female options on the Destruction side, then the Chosen and Marauder add to that, and then.. if they did go with the Assassin.. you'd have the issue of just one more lack of the female gender option. And then, still, there's the potential for that same lacking in the White Lions, should be be in.
Personally, I feel that Witch Elves being made rogue-like and the idea of Witch Elves being given stealth is just a plain bad idea. I was happy with the old stance Mythic had that there would be no stealth at all in WAR.. so that disappoints me too, if stealth ends up in the game in any form, no matter the extent.
It's a pickle if you ask me. :p

[Thrakkesh]

And I have every reason to be stubborn.

We were told, again and again by Mythic 'No stealth in WAR' They explained, in detail, about why they didn't like stealth, why it was a bad idea and how it screwed up game balance. It was trotted out to show how WAR was going to be a better RvR game than the rest, because it wouldn't have all the crap associated with it. It was something that people would discuss and the community was generally very excited about because thank god, no more 'strategy' that revolved around waiting for healers to start med-ing at 10% health (yes, I know, stealth is limited and it will be harder. It'll still happen, mark my words).

Now here we are, discussing a stealth class. And people are trying to come up with hackeneyed reasons for giving it to, of all things, the Witch Elves, and why it makes sense.

You want my reasoning it doesn't make sense? Here's why: the Temple of Khaine's core has been always been pretty well defined. The Witch Elves were the frenzied brides, Assassins were the precise, stealthy murders, and so on, and so forth. As I've said, there is a very, very perfect class design for an Assassin Rogue-like character. It was being designed, it had placeholders, at some point we know they had considered it, if only vaguely.

Now, here we are, trying to make a class that has been described since day one of their inception as bloodthirsty murderous priestesses who work themselves into psychotic frenzy and cut vicious swathes through the battlefield. That's it. That's always how it's been and there's plenty of way to make that work as a game mechanic. The alleged problem this if fixing is 'getting to the enemy' and there are plenty of ways to do that--charges have been the norm in MMO for how long...? We have agile escape, why not agile leap-to-the-freaking-enemy? etc, etc. But no, we get stealth.

So now we have this info which is essentially Mythic going back on what was a pretty big promise and completely butchering a class to do it. I'm not angry because it changes my vaunted lore, I'm angry because it makes the Witch Elf a completely uninteresting Rogue-clone that's like every other MMO Rogue in the entire genre. That's lame. That's lazy. Things like this make me nervous, because it begs the question of what else will Mythic promise us and turn back on at the last minute?

Not saying I'm giving up on the game because of one class, just saying this change sucks.

[Noli me Tangere]

And I have every reason to be stubborn.

We were told, again and again by Mythic 'No stealth in WAR' They explained, in detail, about why they didn't like stealth, why it was a bad idea and how it screwed up game balance. It was trotted out to show how WAR was going to be a better RvR game than the rest, because it wouldn't have all the crap associated with it.

And there have been plenty of MMOs with stealth in them that have found stealthing classes a right pain to work out right, and while only a couple of developers I can think of have ever been vocal about admitting it - it's still an obvious issue even in the ones that don't admit it.

You want my reasoning it doesn't make sense? Here's why: the Temple of Khaine's core has been always been pretty well defined. The Witch Elves were the frenzied brides,

Exactly, they're frenzied; I keep seeing a few try to apply a version of logic to Witch Elves that the Witch Elf quite simply doesn't have. As you point at here:

Now here we are, discussing a stealth class. And people are trying to come up with hackeneyed reasons for giving it to, of all things, the Witch Elves, and why it makes sense.

Quite simply, it doesn't make sense for them to be rogue-like and it doesn't make sense for them to have Stealth. It really is that simple.

Now, here we are, trying to make a class that has been described since day one of their inception as bloodthirsty murderous priestesses who work themselves into psychotic frenzy and cut vicious swathes through the battlefield. That's it. That's always how it's been and there's plenty of way to make that work as a game mechanic. The alleged problem this if fixing is 'getting to the enemy' and there are plenty of ways to do that--charges have been the norm in MMO for how long...? We have agile escape, why not agile leap-to-the-freaking-enemy? etc, etc. But no, we get stealth.

I think of this, and the agile idea.. and instead of an agile lead to the enemy, I'd think more along the idea of the previously mentioned cutting a vicious swathe through the enemy. A Charge that does damage to anything on the the way to the target, and then essentially tears into the opponent once you reach the target you've charged at.

So, yes, essentially a charge. Something viciously psychotic, bloody and violent looking. Just like the Witch Elf.

Not saying I'm giving up on the game because of one class,

*nods* I don't think anyone's saying that, unless I missed somewhere where somebody said that, but, either way I'm certainly not saying that either. :D

[Dukha]

In addition to the stealth issue, implementing Assassins brings in another one. It would create yet another Male only class. The White Lion, if in, has the possibility of being male only as well, though it seems a possibility they might allow for female gender options on that class.
As I understand it there is only one vauge reference in the lore that says that Assassins are male only. Besides, I think most people would be okay with bending that particular piece as it wouldnt take away anything from the core of what the Assassin stands for.


*nods* I don't think anyone's saying that, unless I missed somewhere where somebody said that, but, either way I'm certainly not saying that either. :D

Well, I have seen it being said but thats mostly by the crowd that isnt interested in lore and then used as a somewhat odd argument to keep those arguing against stealth to stop arguing. It goes something like this.I get so friggin tired of these lorenerds threatening to not play the game if <insert whatever the topic is about> is in/is out (scratch wichever is inapropriate), thats just lame, lore MUST change for the good of the game!!!!!!!
This is usually followed by the "lorenerds" rereading their own posts trying to figure out where the heck they said they threatened to not play the game.
I aint saying it either, got the CE stored away in my book shelf, just waiting for the time to dive in, stealth, healing gods of murder, beer powered steam contraptions and whatever other oddities that creep in be damned!

By the way, loved your suggestion for the AoE damage+Charge combo Noli me Tangere :twisted:

[Sinfjotle]

The problem with putting Assassin's in now is that the Disciple of Khaine pretty much has their way of existing, just, you know, specialer.

[Dukha]

Hmm, but the same can be said about Disciples occupying the Witch Elf role. In fact it has been argued so extensively that I wont say anything more about that.

The real problem is more likely simple economics and sticking to a timeframe.

[Zunjin]

In addition to the stealth issue, implementing Assassins brings in another one. It would create yet another Male only class. The White Lion, if in, has the possibility of being male only as well, though it seems a possibility they might allow for female gender options on that class.





As I understand it there is only one vauge reference in the lore that says that Assassins are male only. Besides, I think most people would be okay with bending that particular piece as it wouldnt take away anything from the core of what the Assassin stands for.




To add some input to support Dukha here, that reference of vauge reference of lore is something that was made upon the fact that only males was cast into the cauldron. As they no longer are in Age of reckoning, nothing should stop the possibilty of female assassins anymore really. It would be strange if they didnt exist.

[Zoatibix]

To add some input to support Dukha here, that reference of vauge reference of lore is something that was made upon the fact that only males was cast into the cauldron. As they no longer are in Age of reckoning, nothing should stop the possibilty of female assassins anymore really. It would be strange if they didnt exist.

it isn't a vague reference. The WHFB main rulebook states specifically that males are taken to be potential assassins.

[Exacerberus]

From this month's News from the Front: (http://herald.warhammeronline.com/warherald/NewsArticle.war?id=123) Sorry guys. :(

But, I guess even lethal predators like lionesses and tigresses have to stalk and sneak to catch their prey on occasions, eh?

EDIT: Also, thought I'd include the Witch Elf Summary shown below the short story.

Also, how unlike a Witch Elf does that she-Elf in that picture beside the Witch Elf summary look? She's fully clothed!!! :o

(...and I realise that, poster below. I just meant that there is now evidence of lore adjustments in WAR showing Witch Elves sneaking, as well as in-game functions which we all know about.)
Unless stealth will be implemented as a too overpowered ability, I do want to be stealth classes in both factions.
I'm gonna chase the stalkers. All.

[Seldaren]

They gave a specific reason for not including the Assassin, which was stealth. They are now retro-fitting stealth to the Witch Elf. It's dumb, it's hackeneyed, and it's lazy, and no amount of desperately attempting to rationalize it will change that.

Dev-Quote or it didn't happen.

I don't recall Mythic ever saying "sorry, no stealth, no assassin". When fans were discussing what they though the classes were going to be, that was the line they were saying. I don't think a Dev ever actually agreed with it.

Also, the introduction of some form of limited-Stealth was in direct result of Beta Testing. It was determined that Melee DPS careers needed *something* to compete.

And, chances are to do Assassins you'd have to do a more traditional Stealth, which would require a traditional Stealth career on Order as well.
What we seem to have here is a rather limited form of Stealth which would not really fit for an Assassin to be honest.

And, can you imagine the out-cry if Witch Elves were not included in the game? They are easily the most iconic representation of Dark Elves.

[Xurré]

I don't recall Mythic ever saying "sorry, no stealth, no assassin". When fans were discussing what they though the classes were going to be, that was the line they were saying. I don't think a Dev ever actually agreed with it.
linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMRSLP6tKc)

Paul says pretty much exactly that. No assassins, no stealth, no ambushing, no griefing. Something along those lines.

And that's been quoted so often now that I'm surprised you haven't seen it.

Also, the introduction of some form of limited-Stealth was in direct result of Beta Testing. It was determined that Melee DPS careers needed *something* to compete.
"Something" doesn't automatically translate to stealth.

I say that they haven't tried nearly hard enough to keep stealth out of this game. In fact, I suspect that one of the developers in charge of design loves stealth and tried to get it in any way he can. Because I simply can't see any other reason for giving that particular ability to that particular class. It makes zero sense.

What we seem to have here is a rather limited form of Stealth which would not really fit for an Assassin to be honest.
It fits the Witch Elves even less. By a huge margin.

And, can you imagine the out-cry if Witch Elves were not included in the game? They are easily the most iconic representation of Dark Elves.
You mean like the Slayers are for Dwarfs?


- Xurré

[Seldaren]

Paul says pretty much exactly that. No assassins, no stealth, no ambushing, no griefing. Something along those lines.

And that's been quoted so often now that I'm surprised you haven't seen it.

I have seen that, and it's fairly obvious he's not talking about Temple of Khaine Assassins there. He's talking about the concept of a rogue/assassin class. A class centered around the ability to Stealth.

And they have not broken with that, there are still no classes centered around the ability to make themselves completely invisible.

[Scion]

You mean like the Slayers are for Dwarfs?

- Xurré

Lets get something straight. Dwarves dont see Slayers as icons, so best ya be minding your words, a Dawi is always watching.

Sure when most people think Dawi they think Gotrek, but technically he isnt even a slayer anymore, he's just a rogue Dawi with a god axe. His honour has been more than repayed considering.

[Dukha]

"Ability to be invisible... NO!!"
True, its Paul Barnett saying it and it was ages ago but it really doesnt get any clearer than that. Besides, he even cleary refers to this statement as being one of Marc Jacobds global rules, wich I think add credibility.

Fair enough, Mr Barnett does not say NO! to ambush tactics but ties that into clever use of the environment and the problem with hiding a cannon behind a small bush.

Apparently then something happened.

[abr4]

linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMRSLP6tKc)

Paul says pretty much exactly that. No assassins, no stealth, no ambushing, no griefing. Something along those lines.

Utter win.

I totally was gonna post that, but you did it first.

[Lobster Mooch]

I would agree in saying they reached for stealth far too soon as a solution to the MDPS problem.

Just some ideas for witch elves:

A stance or skill which allows them to have a large dodge bonus against ranged attacks when not in combat (IE no other player/creature is targeted). You can be targeted by others but until you hit that attack button it shouldn't count as in combat for this purpose.

A higher dodge skill in general, or a feel no pain type of ability to negate damage over a short period.

Various potions which can aid in things like, dodging, magic resists, damage absorbtion what have you.

They should also have a higher magic resist in general, nothing too powerful but it should be there.

There is also another way, stay behind a tank until in closing distance for the collision detection blocking LOS protection plus the buffs. You know, how you use witch elves in the TT, you don't march them in the open, you use meat shields to protect them then unleash them, they don't sneak around like shades do.

[baso]

Utter win.

I totally was gonna post that, but you did it first.

That linky by Xurré is just pure pawnage. This thread should just be closed with the link from her. I just went "omg" when I saw that vid for the first time. Now I understand why ppl are pissed.

06:31
There will be no assassin class. No stealth fighthing. Positional fighting yes. Ability to be invisible, hide and grief people to death, no. One of Marks global rules.

Could this be interpreted in any other way :D

There is no more to add to the stealth discussion and interpret Mythics words.. nothing more... Xurré just nailed this one with the linky. Anyone trying to interpret this in any other way is just kidding themselves and is in denial.

1. I love stealth and was really excited and happy to find out stealth for witch elf, referred to as WAR-rogue amongst my friends.

2. I feel for Xurré and the others that thinks stealth sucks and specially for witch elf. That link just nailed it.

[Pangscar]

linky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMRSLP6tKc)

Paul says pretty much exactly that. No assassins, no stealth, no ambushing, no griefing. Something along those lines.

And that's been quoted so often now that I'm surprised you haven't seen it.

- Xurré

Pretty interesting that here you take Pauls word verbatim, and other times you dismiss him as "oh its just Paul he says lots of crazy stuff" Pretty convenient way of making arguments imo.

[baso]

Pretty interesting that here you take Pauls word verbatim, and other times you dismiss him as "oh its just Paul he says lots of crazy stuff" Pretty convenient way of making arguments imo.

But u have to admit, if you look at the vid from the 06.31 he sounds pretty convincing :D

Whatever Xurré or anyone else has said anything about Paul. Just looking at that vid from 06.31 hearing those words I've quoted you just go "/facepalm":D... mistake Mythic.. mistake. He shouldnt have said it so convincingly like it was the final decision. That is how it sounded, specially when he adds "one of Marks global rules" ...LOL

But everyone is entitled to mistakes, this one I am glad they did.

[Pangscar]

But see those words still stand as accurate. Lets dissect those bolded words for the vid shall we?



No assassin class? -check
No stealth fighting? -check, its a closing mechanic you cant fight or attack while stealthed. This isn't a class defining skill, its simply a way to get closer to your enemy.
Positional fighting? -Don't know yet, can assume so judging by the vids we have seen thus far
Ability to be invisible, hide and grief people to death, no? -From what we have seen so far this is also correct. You can not do any abilities will in stealth. Its only a closing mechanic. It also appears to be more of a camouflage type thing more then complete invisibility. Its also very limited duration as it uses your AP.

and also technically its NOT in game yet. Its being tested. For all we know there 10 other mechanics being tested.

[Alota]

Well, Pangscar, just after 5 minutes he also said "No stealthing at ALL". And Stealth Fighting really means 'closing up to someone with stealth and then attack' and not 'staying invisible while fighting'. I've never seen a class which keeps on fighting in stealth. Attacks ALWAYS break stealth.

[Pangscar]

Well, Pangscar, just after 5 minutes he also said "No stealthing at ALL". And Stealth Fighting really means 'closing up to someone with stealth and then attack' and not 'staying invisible while fighting'. I've never seen a class which keeps on fighting in stealth. Attacks ALWAYS break stealth.


Was referring to having abilities which can only be performed while stealthed, which as it looks is not the way it will work in WAR(if it makes it to live). Stealth fighting means you sneak up to someone do your stealth attacks, stealth again do some more attacks rinse, repeat, not simply getting close to your enemy. But yeah its all context. If the stealth in WAR is like the stealth in WoW then yeah it'll be crap and shouldn't be in the game, but unlike most posters in this thread I have faith in Mythic that they will only do it if it makes sense and works in the game.

[Xurré]

Pretty interesting that here you take Pauls word verbatim, and other times you dismiss him as "oh its just Paul he says lots of crazy stuff" Pretty convenient way of making arguments imo.
Not really, considering that this was before I started dismissing his words. In fact, that video is one of the main reason why I started dismissing him.

Besides, it wasn't just Paul saying it, Mark Jacobs too reinforced that Paul was telling the truth by confirming how he indeed doesn't like stealth in PvP (going so far even as to say that limited stealth was just as bad because it'd just upset the people who like stealth).


- Xurré

[Dukha]

...unlike most posters in this thread I have faith in Mythic that they will only do it if it makes sense and works in the game.
Well, "making sense" and "working in the game" are two different things the way I see it. It probably will work in game allthough I will continue to believe that it will be used to grief people. If its hard to use and limited then the only difference will be that not everyone will be able to use it like that, wich of course is a good thing. It even make some sort of sense gameplay wise if you look at the archetypes. Different closing mechanics for different types of melee DPS classes, paired across factions. But there it stops, after that, no it makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

Regarding the whole faith issue, I do have faith that Mythic will make a well balanced game and that whatever abilites we get will be usable and effective. I also have faith that the game will, by and large, make sense as a conversion from the original IP. Where I lack in faith is mostly this part of it, as it seems more a sellout to attract the rogue players than anything else. My faith in Mythic is in fact so great that I am absolutely convinced that they can make the Witch Elf (and also the Witch Hunter, lets not forget that guy) very viable without ever touching stealth. Whatever issue they have in getting close to targets is most certainly not so severe that Mythic cant overcome them and also do this while keeping the melee DPS classes different from each other.

[willisverynice]

you also have to realize that anyone who is going to spend lots of time following people and waiting for them to get low health is not going to progress very far in the game... or at least not very quickly.

how good a stealth class is at ganking is more dependent on what mythic gives to the other classes as escape mechanisms, stuns, slows, runs, etc. also stealth alone will not allow a player to beat you and it doesnt seem as if WE will have any sort of crazy wow ambush skill that can wtf pwn half your hp bar.

im not a witch elf prospective (in fact im playing a disciple so witch elves will be a very annoying enemy especially with stealth) im just sick of everyone thinking stealth is so horribly unfair by nature. i played wow for 3 years and i never though stealth was unfair or op, almost every class has someway to get away from it. there were those couple months where rogues had that wtf stun lock and you couldnt move if they did it right........ that sucked

dont remember who was complaining about stealth in a field and about witch elves being non magical but doing something magical like stealth................ the realism of stealthing 6 feet in front of somebody in a field... unrealistic as it is, you have to remember.... your playing a video game with equally unrealistic orcs, elves, and magic. another non magic based classe that does something unrealistic is the marauder, plus, all elves are meant to be magically inclined.

mechanics > keeping to lore > realism

[Thrakkesh]

you also have to realize that anyone who is going to spend lots of time following people and waiting for them to get low health is not going to progress very far in the game... or at least not very quickly.

how good a stealth class is at ganking is more dependent on what mythic gives to the other classes as escape mechanisms, stuns, slows, runs, etc. also stealth alone will not allow a player to beat you and it doesnt seem as if WE will have any sort of crazy wow ambush skill that can wtf pwn half your hp bar.

im not a witch elf prospective (in fact im playing a disciple so witch elves will be a very annoying enemy especially with stealth) im just sick of everyone thinking stealth is so horribly unfair by nature. i played wow for 3 years and i never though stealth was unfair or op, almost every class has someway to get away from it. there were those couple months where rogues had that wtf stun lock and you couldnt move if they did it right........ that sucked

dont remember who was complaining about stealth in a field and about witch elves being non magical but doing something magical like stealth................ the realism of stealthing 6 feet in front of somebody in a field... unrealistic as it is, you have to remember.... your playing a video game with equally unrealistic orcs, elves, and magic. another non magic based classe that does something unrealistic is the marauder, plus, all elves are meant to be magically inclined.

mechanics > keeping to lore > realism

Where to start...? First, WoW isn't the only game around nor is it the only game with stealth, and it's dealt with balance problems for day 1. Rogues in that game have been see-sawed desperately to balance them, and it's not the only game. I always hear great stories about DAoC assassins one-shotting drinkers out of stealth without even breaking it, and there are a few other games where this mechanic failed. The ability to pick & choose battles is so fundamentally powerful that it makes the rest of difficult, and many veteran MMO players don't want to deal with it, done and done.

The rest of your argument is just strawman. Note that a great deal of these arguments are thus 1). Stealth is a crappy and lazy mechanic and 2). There are better Dark Elf classes that could have been suited to this than Witch Elf. In fact, they choose Witch Elf to avoid that cliche, and now they're shoe-horning it back in. I don't think anyone will try to argue realism that hard in a game where people sling fireballs, but you threw that out there to make most of us look silly and frankly I'm a bit irked by it.

Finally, your last point, which is ludicrous, assumes that there is no other way to fix the game. There should be. Other games have dealt with it. We don't want this solution in our game. There are other ways to satisfy game mechanics, that would not even be a bit more lore-centric but better as a game.

[Dukha]

Thank you Thrakkesh, I would have answered myself but lacked the patience...

EDIT: By the way, willisverynice did you say you will be playing a Disciple? And that Witch Elfs will be annoying enemies? You do realize that Witch Elfs are at YOUR side right?

[willisverynice]

Where to start...? First, WoW isn't the only game around nor is it the only game with stealth, and it's dealt with balance problems for day 1. Rogues in that game have been see-sawed desperately to balance them, and it's not the only game. I always hear great stories about DAoC assassins one-shotting drinkers out of stealth without even breaking it, and there are a few other games where this mechanic failed. The ability to pick & choose battles is so fundamentally powerful that it makes the rest of difficult, and many veteran MMO players don't want to deal with it, done and done.

The rest of your argument is just strawman. Note that a great deal of these arguments are thus 1). Stealth is a crappy and lazy mechanic and 2). There are better Dark Elf classes that could have been suited to this than Witch Elf. In fact, they choose Witch Elf to avoid that cliche, and now they're shoe-horning it back in. I don't think anyone will try to argue realism that hard in a game where people sling fireballs, but you threw that out there to make most of us look silly and frankly I'm a bit irked by it.

Finally, your last point, which is ludicrous, assumes that there is no other way to fix the game. There should be. Other games have dealt with it. We don't want this solution in our game. There are other ways to satisfy game mechanics, that would not even be a bit more lore-centric but better as a game.

i was simply responding to the people complaining about stealth in wow as that is the game i have played most extensively, i did not mean to imply that wow was the ruler of all mmos, or the only mmo with stealth mechanic. it just seemed to me that the wow rogue was the stealth class people hated the most.... i guess im wrong on that.

though rogues were a unbalanced class from day one..... so was everything else at one point or another, mages were op at launch too. at one point spriests could beat every class in the game 1v1 and many combinations of 2v1. warlocks were certainly op for a while. every class is gonna get unbalanced sometimes, and as you said there are many ways of balancing a game other than removing (or adding) stealth. what im trying to say is that having a stealth mechanic in its own is trivial.... its how the mechanic is used andto what degree the class depends on it that will dictate its overpoweredness.

somebody did, in this thread, complain about the realism of stealthing in a field 6 feet in front of you. i was not trying to straw man by saying everyone thinks that, i am just responding to that person. the post was on a different page and i didnt want to go back again after reading 16 pages. sorry if i irked people, that honestly wasnt my intention.

i never said stealth was a necessary mechanic to make the game balanced. i do enjoy it as a mechanic and personally think it should be tied it.

what i did say is that stealth CAN work, and theres no reason in my mind, if it works, that it should be left out of the game, though your right that it is a bs way to buff a class with dps problems.

"The rest of your argument is just strawman. Note that a great deal of these arguments are thus 1). Stealth is a crappy and lazy mechanic and 2). There are better Dark Elf classes that could have been suited to this than Witch Elf."

-this part i am confused about........ even if i did say stealth is crappy and lazy (which im pretty sure i didnt make that or the 2nd argument)..... that wouldnt be a strawman argument... maybe your saying that im strawmanning by putting those arguments in other peoples mouths? still though, those are certainly the two most argued points in the thread

EDIT: By the way, willisverynice did you say you will be playing a Disciple? And that Witch Elfs will be annoying enemies? You do realize that Witch Elfs are at YOUR side right?

lol my bad, i couldn't remember what the mirror class on order is going to be, is it witch hunter? anyway it will have stealth and otherwise be very similar to fighting a witch elf whatever class it is

edit: found it on pg 14 bout halfway down

I personally always thought a stealth based on something more tangible would be fine, but the version of stealth MMO's tend to use (standing 6 feet in front of me in an open field with no cover, and yet this class that lacks any magic whatsoever is somehow invisible..) has always just annoying, rather than thrilling.

[Thrakkesh]

The people against stealth are arguing that it's a lazy mechanic and causes balancing problems. They were not your points. Your strawman arguments are the 'realism thing'. It is literally a strawman argument. It is not the main point by anyone (that comment you dug up is one of the many points she posted there and here you are, continoually hammering away it. So far you haven't bothered to refute much else). You also imply that that's the main sticking point of most people when it isn't. I don't agree with Noli's point there much at all and I doubt Noli herself feels all that strongly about it, and probably wouldn't have even said it the other problems were absent.

Now back to the main point. "All classes were unbalanced in WoW at some point"... well, yes, while that may be true, but in the case ofthe Rogue--that problem. If you go back so far as "World of Roguecraft" which demonstrated how a gearless Rogue could 100-0 shutdown another class through prodigious use of re-stealths and cooldowns (as well as picking generally favorable conditions) you'll see the extreme edge of overpowered. This was later toned down, and Rogues were watered down. The class has never really achieved a semblance of true balance--they are not in the overpowered stage again, now that they're given an equivalent to intercept and prep is viable--again. Short of Warlocks, they're the most jerked-around class in the game and continue to provide a headache to balance. They are a shining example of why stealth-based-classes are generally a bad idea.

And this is not unique to Blizzard, mind you, I'm not picking on them here. The DAoC Assassin largely suffered from many of the same problems. and regardless of an AP-sucking ability that prevents them from camping for minutes on end, the ability to catch a person at the most inopportune moment, and indeed choose when to attack will be a constant headache, and there are better mechanics to achieve the purported goal (to get them in melee).

[willisverynice]

my main point is not the whole thing about realism, ill repeat my argument again so that you maybe will read it this time. it is that stealth alone does not ruin a class or a game, its how the stealth ability can be used and to what degree the class depends on it. although they have tried to balance rogues for 3 years theres one thing they never tried. that is to make it so rogues do not depend on their stealth ability (although stealth is pretty much the point of the rogue). some of the best damaging rogue abilities require stealth, ie ambush and cheap shot. a rogue starting from stealth had a much better chance than a rogue not starting in stealth, many fights are won or lost based on whether the rogue gets his opener in.

in war this does not seem to be the case. the only abilities a witch elf can use from stealth are debuffing abilities; no stuns and no damage. you cant even use a regular non stealth ability from stealth. i heard a rumor they are considering even putting a timer on it so you cant use any skills for 3 seconds after you unstealth (probably not true imo, but maybe).

im fairly sure when blizzard thought up the rogue class they started him off with the stealth ability. furthermore they decided to have the class completely revolve around that ability. i dont know about the assassin but it sounds like it is very similar.

on the other hand mythic started off not wanting stealth because they know it can ruin a game. they later decided to put it in and not as a class defining skill (though many people are looking at it that way).

as silly as this sounds, there is a good point that in shadowmeld in wow was not overpowered at all (obviously). the point being that stealth in itself, as an ability that makes you unable to be seen, is not overpowered, its what you can do in stealth that determines its effectiveness (sorry if im sounding like a broken record). there is no question in my mind that stealth in war will be not be a problem for anyone and may even be considered a joke once it releases. no beta testers are complaining about it either.

as for my straw man argument..... that was just a note i was adding at the end, hence why its at the bottom of the post. if you think my main argument for having stealth in war is that "mages can fireball so rogues should stealth" then your only reading what you think you can best argue with. in retrospect i wish i hadnt commented on it cause it obviously gave everyone a chance to ignore my valid points and concentrate on the retarded one that has nothing to do with mechanics or the game at all.

edit: oh ya and im really hammering that argument on by saying in two posts that it has nothing to do with my argument and that it was an "lol look what this guy said" comment.

also i think my contention is not with you, i completely agree that stealth is not the way to fix anything for witch elves. a non stealth ability like shadowstep in wow or blink strike in dota would be great in my opinion. it would make it much more fun to play the class as well as give it better survivability (blink out of battle to a healer or caster like in dota) than stealth and it wouldnt have nearly the potential for overpoweredness.

my only contention is with people who think that stealth as a concept is overpowered when this is simply not true. although maybe no one is saying this either and im just hearing what i want to hear too. i just want to help everyone whos stressing about this out by pointing out that all signs point to stealth not being overpowered.

[Thrakkesh]

First off-- we do not know what the Witch Elf, is, in fact, capable of while stealthed. That information is currently not revealed and any info received is sketchy. I think implying that she will be incapable of dealing damage out of stealth--say, an ambush or debilitating effect, is foolish. I would also offer a friendly reminder that those currently testing can not talk about Stealth in relation to the Witch Elf in a meaningful way as they--and if you are a part of it, indeed you are--under an NDA.

As to other points, I find it ironic that you imply Shadowmeld is not overpowered when it was, in fact, the recepiant of several nerfs that lowered its effectiveness for certain classes, most notably the Hunter and Priest, and remains a powerful ability in some respects, as it allows, again, concealement of critical information regarding tatical choices in PVP. In laymen's terms--there is no way a player can suss out whether a person is alone or surrounded by a variety of classes, and even if they suspect it, they don't have a clear picture of the makeup It gives the stealthed player(s) a decided advantage, and some very nasty combinations--for instance, Shadowmeld-Aimed-shot-multi-shot combos of old, were enough to gib casters before they knew what happened back in the day.

I can not refute your argument about beta tester responses either way, because of NDA agreements. I would advise that if you have relevent information you wouldn't discuss it here, as you, or the members involved are under NDA. I would also point out that things can still change and so we can only discuss the mechanics implimentation, not the nitty gritty.

I'm glad that there is 'no question in your mind' that stealth will be fine in WAR. As of yet I have yet to see it done in a way that didn't drastically damage balance.

[willisverynice]

reread my post i edited the last part out and added a much more friendly note..... thats funny you read it in the two minutes it took me to change it, lol.

i forgot about old fashioned shadowmeld, i still would not consider it overpowered back then. it was overpowered compared to all other race skills which is why it had to be changed, but in order to exploit it the way it was you either had to get lucky or wait around for at least 5 minutes which is hardly going to help in pvp overall. though it was pretty annoying to have a hunter own me from it, i enjoyed the fact that they must have been waiting there a while just to get one kill, wasting more of their time than mine.

in order to have it do much in bgs you would need a team of many night elves (thus limiting your choices on classes and specific players) as well as have them sit at mine in ab (for example) stealthed and wait for people while not casting or doing anything helpful toward the rest of the battle for periods of time. i guess it would be pretty great to have 5 melded hunters at the flag and just aimed shot own some mage all at once. oh look at the mage hes gonna cap the flag all by himself!!! or not.

[Thrakkesh]

reread my post i edited the last part out and added a much more friendly note..... thats funny you read it in the two minutes it took me to change it, lol.

I'm a pretty fast reader actually. I have a habit of devouring novels within a few hours of buying them. I edited my post somewhat to reflect the changes. (Which aren't showing up on my browser but I'm going on good faith anyway).

[willisverynice]

i still contest that mind control is the best skill ever created in any game, i want zealots to have one so i can continue my legacy of sitting at lumber mill or on the EotS bridges throwing people off the edge to their doom.

[Morelius]

The majority of stealth class players are not griefers, but the majority of griefers play a stealth class.

Thats been my experience in mmorpgs. To make it more clear, the stealth class has always catered to bullies. I'm not saying that all stealth class players are griefers, but it always seems that most griefers pick the stealth class to play as it allows for some mighty fine griefing.

Now in a pvp game, everyone is trying to kill each other, but it seems the norm that the stealth class has always been about getting the easiest results, and the ability to grief for pleasure, without any chance of a fair fight. Its the whole "no one can attack me or kill me, I get to chose when I kill them". They also tend to have an inverse skill to success ratio, ie, the less skill a class requires, the more OP they are.

The stealth mechanic is designed to get them in close without taking ANY damage, or their target even knowing they are there, so they can time their attack for when their target is occupied. Given that all the ranged dps and ranged support classes mention that are vulnerable up close, doesn't this equal an auto-kill when you have no chance to even prepare for your melee dps enemy, or soften them up? Solve a problem with the Witch Elf in closing to ranged dps without dying, and provide auto kills against archmages, shadowwarriors, bright wizards and rune priests. Brilliant. Solving one class issue by creating 4 more is hardly the best solution.

Given how quickly Mythic are doing backflips on their earlier promotions of no stealth, they were not going to use the crappy mechanic that most players in mmorpgs agree is gimp, only to seemingly abandon their stance, I do not have a lot of trust that they can be the first ever to make stealth not be overpowered and a griefer-magnet.

Then of course there is the whole "drug-crazed, screaming, charge at the enemy, almost naked, pale white skin, big hair, berserker type class" clearly in Mythic's eyes being ideal to be "stealthy". I wonder if the chosen were considered for stealth, it has about as much warhammer lore, and common sense, behind it.

I'm kinda expecting them to announce that archmages use no magic, instead try to sumo-wrestle their enemies into submission, only to have people defend it by saying "lore doesn't matter, its their game, they can do what they want, its a game mechanic that was needed."

Oh, and we should stop calling it stealth. It is invisibility, pure and simple.

My faith in Mythic has taken a downward turn since they stealthed in stealth. They keep hush hush about it, having backflipped on one of their much flaunted features that made them better and unique and was very popular, not to mention the reversal of the lore behind a class, changing the most visible, loudest, most outta control class into a quiet class with invisibility, that hides from those who might attack, until it can strike safely and hope not to get noticed.

I honestly think that in their effort to attract rogue-fanbois and griefers, who have no appreciation for the warhammer universe or its lore, they are actually alienating ALOT more people than they realise, those who love the warhammer universe, and the majority of online players who know stealth is a crappy game mechanic. Sure, most of us will probably still play, I intend to, but if they continue with stealth, my respect for the company and game will be drastically reduced, meaning I will be a lot more likely to look elsewhere sooner rather than later, and view the rest of game in a more negative manner.

Besides, playing a sumo-wrestling archmage will grow boring after a while.

[Lobster Mooch]

Excellent point. If I want stealth I will play WoW. One of the big reasons I got into WAR was the no stealth approach, it meant a totally different game style, and I am a Warhammer fan, but TBH in the beginning I thought this would either be a WoW clone or a downright awful game as Warhammer computer games have a notorious history of being God Awful. But Mythic's approach made me love this game to be, and I have been following for over a year now, but the news that stealth is even being tested is disappointing. Sure we don't know the full story, they might be testing more than just stealth as a feature, but the fact that horrible piece of Witch Elf fluff appeared with them stealthing has left me very worried.

I could live with stealth being in the game, but I would be very dissapointed considering their stance on it before, but to give it to Witch Elves is terrible. I can't even imagine GW letting it happen, it's like taking Chaos and saying Khorne uses magic, or Brettonians use black powder weapons, Orcs have females and are really noble savages as is PC, High Elves getting Cold ones, A dark elf falling in love with anything not Dark Elf...the list goes on of possible things that are equally as terrible as giving WE stealth, Hell I don't think WH should have stealth either for that matter.

[zoa]

Witch Elves stealthing is not something I agree with, the reasons have been posted already by numerous people on the forums. Can't wait to play World of Dark Ages of Warblade and play Guild Beta soon. I'm bitter, sorry, lol.

Anyways, just adding my name to a list.

[Morelius]

I would actually like to see ONE gaming company show some originality regarding stealth, and make it so it takes skill. When I say stealth, I mean sneaking, trying to not be noticed, NOT invisibility. Instead of just cloning whats been done before because its easy and loved by skill-less griefers, be ground-breaking and make it involve some brain power and skill.

I was playing WoW with my gf just before, she was on a female night elf druid with green hair. By chance she was wearing leathers that were browns and greens. And she was actually very hard to see against the forest background (ashenvale). If it wasn't for her billboard name over her head, unless I was attentive or she got really close, I probably would have missed seeing her.

My idea is allow ALL characters to remove their bright fluro gigantic billboard names above their heads for enemies to see. (Maybe combined with a movement speed slowing effect as you carefully step as quietly as you can). Now it means your enemies actually have to pay attention to their screen. I know that making the players pay attention is not something mmorpgs are famous for, but give it a go. Once you click on the character the name can appear, sorta representing the fact that you have noticed them, and are now aware of them.

The skill part comes in by wearing clothes that blend in more with your environment, and also utilising any terrain, hills, trees, bushes etc to get closer to your enemy, moving when they are looking away, flanking them etc etc. Yes it would involve some skill and effort, but effectively, if you decide to be sneaky, then no matter what your character, you can attempt it.

Noises are another part of being stealthy. Now its hard to represent this in a mmorpg, as there are spell noises, and music and what not. This I believe could be represented visually by transparency. For example, if a fully plated knight tried to avoid notice, they could try, but they would appear fully opaque. Whilst a witch elf, wearing little can walk softly, so they would receive some semi-transparency, not full invisibility, but say the same transparency a shaman ghost wolf form has. Other characters could have varying degrees of transparency depending on their gear.

The other alternative is to make it so a plate wearer's billboard name will become visible when within 25 yards, whilst a cloth wearer's name will only become visible at 10 yards.

Those are some ideas. Witch elves and witch hunters could get their "stealth" with more transparency than other classes (shadow warriors should also get it) or a longer lasting name hidden skill. What this would mean is that it truly is stealth, not lazy, lame, skill-less, broken game-mechanic of invisibility, Mythic wouldn't look to be liers, and whether it is successful or not would depend on the attentiveness of the enemy, and the approach and cover used by the one attempting to stealth. In effect, it involves player effort and skill, something never seen before in previous mmorpg's stealth.

[kink]

Just removing the name plate will not help you avoid detection. When there is a large war party running around there is almost always one "Tab Spammer" in the group searching for nearby, yet concealed, targets.

I really do not mind stealth being in the game. However to keep everyone happy it would be nice if the Witch Elf could be specialized to allow a more "in your face" style of play at the cost of some of the stealthy maneuvers. That way everyone can be satisfied.

These heated arguments are very pointless as most of us have no idea how exactly certain things will be implemented. It makes more sense for us to post how we think it could work once we know it is in the game. That way maybe a dev will see our ideas and make adjustments to bring it more into line with our expectations.

Everyone has to remember that the Warhammer IP and Lore is very important. However Mythic, EA and GamesWorkshop are all companies who want to make as much money as they can, so concessions will be made if they feel it is something needed to increase profits. Just hope they leave a way for you to play your playstyle as well.

Lots of people do like stealth as a mechanic. Its nice to be able to pick your fights, to be able to AFK whenever you want etc. On the other hand it can be a pain when you attack that lone Marauder and get jumped by the 9 Witch elves standing next to him in the middle of a flat grass plain.

Its never possible to make everyone happy all of the time. It is only possible to make some of the people happy all of the time. This game is not going to be perfect, no game ever will be. Once something is there, the best thing you can do is either state clearly, concisely and politely as to why it should be removed, or to offer suggestions as to how it could be altered so that the ability cannot be abused (in your opinion). Happy debating =)

[Dukha]

I really do not mind stealth being in the game. However to keep everyone happy it would be nice if the Witch Elf could be specialized to allow a more "in your face" style of play at the cost of some of the stealthy maneuvers. That way everyone can be satisfied.
You make good points, I wont debate either of em as I either agree fully or do not disagree enough to feel it being justified so to speak ;)

The quoted part is however worthy of special recognition. Despite some heavy lore reasons (that has been covered well enough in the past I think) if I can build my Witch Elf to not rely on a stealth mechanic for the purpouse of attaining melee range and still be just as viable as the Witch Elf sneaking trough the grass next to me then I'm happy. If that turns out to be the case I would probably cheer actually...

I would however view those sneaking Witches as weak and pathetic, unworthy of wearing the name maibd :evil:
But thats just the RP aspect of it mind you and as I'm really a pretty friendly guy that dont like hurting peoples feeling I would most likely seldom get a chance to express that hehe.