Shedding the last layers of WoW skin. Things ill be glad to get rid of.

[Pogo]

As you all know alot of us played WoW, and in the end were fundamentally disappointed in the game due to what we all came there for, WAR. Unending death and pvp with distinguished effect on the world so geting ready for war, i've just been thinking about things (especially in the forums) i'll be glad to never see again.

1. The race and class combo,

Things that bugged me about the damn indentical classes per race and faction,

You essentially didnt care where you played but which sets of cooldowns and passive abilitys you wanted. Each race had little to no sense of invididuality.

Geting ridiculed on the forums as worthless because you didnt pick the "most optimal" race for your particular playstyle.

Geting told to reroll due to race, and for god sakes, "go gnome or go home". *I hated and still do, hate gnomes.

2. Night elfs, especially hunters, Over rolled much?

3. World PvP objectives being taken by one person, or even worse being completely ignored because the lack of incentive to do so.

4. Scheduled raid instances, buh bye.

5. Being glorified and rewarded for fighting your own faciton (arena)

6. Towns that promote the two enemey factions to be in one place at a time without conflict....

7. Flying carebear mounts that allowed people to choose when they wanted to fight and be idly safe whenever, where ever.

8. Auction houses.... ugh.

9. Chuck norris jokes.

10. Frontflips (see number 2).

11. Hopefully, stealth.

12. Enchanting please, nothing worse then geting a new piece of loot and having to get it rechanted..... or paying out the for the mats or use of mats from another person.

13. Serious pvp only being taken place in instances.

14. Twinks they ruined that bracket of pvp by puting you up against nearly impossible odds and basically showed you everything that is important or fun doing in the game will boil down to being max level. Until then, they will screw with you every step of the way.

15. Elitists pricks on their alts complaining about "Barrens chat" because they already did quests multiple times and know the answer, before someone else, but not actually helping them, instead hearing that person asking for help consecutive times, and then comlaining about "newbs".

16. Ridiculously long flight paths and other downtimes, heres your 20 minute downtime from winterspring to sithilus, go make a sandwhich, , take a shower, and you'll still have another 5-10 minutes of waiting.

17. No more cross realm Bgs.

18. (hopefully) No more old content being compltely destroyed, minimialized by one expansion.

Post other things you'll be glad to be rid of from wow, I guess this turned into a screw wow im glad to be soon playing a superior game that fits my playstyle thread haha.

[Necrotoxin]

16. Ridiculously long flight paths and other downtimes, heres your 20 minute downtime from winterspring to sithilus, go make a sandwhich, , take a shower, and you'll still have another 5-10 minutes of waiting.


QFT

LMAO! That was a ridiculously long flight.

[maxxblood]

Post other things you'll be glad to be rid of from wow, I guess this turned into a screw wow im glad to be soon playing a superior game that fits my playstyle thread haha.

Please for the love of god don't start a flam post about WoW... This is not the place for this.

[Pogo]

oh well why not, i played that damn game for 3 years expecting something great for my playstyle only being appeased until I realized, the game will never be what you want it to be, not even close, world of raid craft.

[ika]

Well I think ur gonna have to cope with point 8 and 17 in this game aswell Pogo !

[Rorance]

I agree with most all of em, just a couple I don't understand, mainly...

I think there are AH in WAR, there should be.

Enchanting things I will assume are in WAR, just not called enchanting.

That's about it really, although I remember hearing some where a looong while ago that they are/were thinking about making scenarios cross realm, but I think that was ditched in favour of NPC's fighting for your faction to balance it out.

16. Ridiculously long flight paths and other downtimes, heres your 20 minute downtime from winterspring to sithilus, go make a sandwhich, , take a shower, and you'll still have another 5-10 minutes of waiting.

Bahahahaha... Man, if I could do all the in 10-15 mins... :D... I would have to like, make a sandwich in the shower with one hand, that would be hard and unrewarding. :D

[Cremo]

If by AH's you mean the fact that there is one big lag infested area to do all your shopping, then yes that seems to be taken care of. Otherwise there are auctioneers.

[TheOverlord]

Urm... there are Auction Houses in WAR too you know... and I'll bet you there'd be Chuck Norris jokes shoehorned into WAR eventually, and though it won't be called the Barrens Chat, it's definitely exist.

I absolutely detest and have reached beyond seething hatred for Gnomes though, so that I'll agree on.

[Chosen]

How about grinding?

Perpetual, endless, eternal, non-stop, never-ending grinding for materials, quest items, rare drops, boss drops, honor points, badges and what ever else you should ever need... I can't even BEGIN to imagine how much time I've wasted on pointless grinding - only for everything I've accomplished to be outdated in a second when new patches, expansions etc has come out... "Oh well, here we go again"

/Rant off

[Pogo]

How about grinding?

Perpetual, endless, eternal, non-stop, never-ending grinding for materials, quest items, rare drops, boss drops, honor points, badges and what ever else you should ever need... I can't even BEGIN to imagine how much time I've wasted on pointless grinding - only for everything I've accomplished to be outdated in a second when new patches, expansions etc has come out... "Oh well, here we go again"

/Rant off


Wow, i cant believe I missed that, very true, especially things like daily quests, and reptuations, E.G. wow im exhalted in hydroxian waterlord woot, oh wait a patch, they have better items? and at what? lower faction levels? Son of a fing ! another grind to stay competitive, jesus.....

[maxxblood]

oh well why not, i played that damn game for 3 years expecting something great for my playstyle only being appeased until I realized, the game will never be what you want it to be, not even close, world of raid craft.

Gratz... Just saying that people have had there post locked for Flaming WoW. And I believe its the forum rules BTW. Just to give you a heads up.

[CaptainAwesome]

You cannot escape the past, there will be wow kids in WAR, luckily though these wow kids will try AoC so they may change their views thus lessening the wow epidemic. In summary there will be remnants of wow in WAR and it may take years before it disappears
.


My 2 Awesomes

[ManiaCCC]

In summary there will be remnants of wow in WAR and it may take years before it disappears


What a nightmare :-?

[Kirmm]

What a nightmare :-?

I know... :cry:

I've always said that there should be some kind of an IQ test before installing an MMORPG to ensure that dumb kids won't play and ruin the game.

[miber]

I wouldn't be surprised if about half of those things made their way into WAR. If not directly, then as a WAR-equivalent (i.e. obviously there won't be NE Hunters, but there may still be a class that's overplayed).

Oh, and grinding? If you don't think there'll be plenty of that in WAR, you're sadly mistaken. It's a staple of MMORPGs.

[Browncoat-WHA]

Please for the love of god don't start a flam post about WoW... This is not the place for this.

This thread is ok as long as it doesn't get into mindless bashing about WoW, since there's really not much good it does and it'll inevitably lead to a flamefest between people who hate it and peopel who still like some of the things people are glad to be rid of.

Listing things you'll be glad not to have is fine. Just keep it free of nonsense.

[Volkmar]

1. .... is still there!

Yes, a Chosen is different from a Blazing Sun knight from a Swordmaster, but how long do you think it is gonna take for the powerleveller hardcore guys to min maxxing race/class? "You are a Swordmaster? they are no proper tanks! Blazing sun is the ONLY way"

2. well, now you got High elves Shadow hunters and Dark Elves witches.

3. well, they still give some sort of bonuses and we have no idea if they can get taken by just one guy or not. There seems to be more incentive on them though

4. WAR has raid instances, they are called City Boss fights. (and maybe some others).

6. They are neutral cities. You know? Neutral? Like Switzerland during second world war? You think a german soldier in switzerland for an holiday go around killing yankees left and right and the local police does nothing?

8. Each tavern of each city will have Auctioneers. do they work same as WoW? dunno, but they are there.

9. ... were started in the Internet and took to WoW just because it is popular. If WAR becomes popular, expect the XXXXX jokes to come around there as well.

12. Supposingly, weapon crafting might consist of upgrading existing weapons with a series of pieces to make them special, so.... quite similar. Of course, just a supposition here.

14. It is too early to see if there cannot be twinks in WAR also

15. those will be in WAR as well, what makes you think that all WAR players will be saints?

16. we have no idea how long the long distance transports take. DAoC had super long ride routes that make Flying paths in WoW looks like a flash.

17. DAoC has common frontier regions for several servers, what makes you think they will not do the same in case population is not stellar?

18. It is way too early for this to be true. DAoC expansions did the same, killed old content for the new, so did EQ, EQ2 etc etc. I guess it come with a level-based game.

Point of the post? WoW is not Da Evil and thinking all will be solved by WAR is silly.

[Are'el]

Just some things that you won't be shedding when WAR comes:
2. Night elfs, especially hunters, Over rolled much?
Elves (High and Dark) will be rolled quite a bit. Expect to see uncounted hordes of Shadow Warriors (all named Legolas).
4. Scheduled raid instances, buh bye.
Maybe not raid instances, but hardcore guilds will still keep strict schedules. Just replace raids, with Keeps.
8. Auction houses.... ugh.
We'll still have them in WAR. They might not be actual auctions, though, and you just set your price.
9. Chuck norris jokes.
Dude, it's the internet.
11. Hopefully, stealth.
Stealth is looking very plausible at this point. Fortunately, there's been speculation that it will cost AP to be in stealth, so you couldn't do it forever. Plus, the WE and WH won't have super-CC, and combat is being tweaked so 2-shotting someone is nearly impossible. This isn't WoW Rogue stealth.
12. Enchanting please, nothing worse then geting a new piece of loot and having to get it rechanted..... or paying out the for the mats or use of mats from another person.
It seems very likely at this point that there will be crafting professions based on improving existing gear. Hopefully, it won't be as broken as Enchanting was.
15. Elitists pricks on their alts complaining about "Barrens chat" because they already did quests multiple times and know the answer, before someone else, but not actually helping them, instead hearing that person asking for help consecutive times, and then comlaining about "newbs"
Dude, it's the internet.
16. Ridiculously long flight paths and other downtimes, heres your 20 minute downtime from winterspring to sithilus
Well, probably not that bad, but some fast travel options will probably take some time. Since the focus in on world RvR, it just wouldn't do if reenforcements could get to any part of the game in too short an ammount of time. It would ruin the whole concept of locational tactics.
17. No more cross realm Bgs.
Being considered, but sort of as a last resort. Everyone raised hell when they suggested it, so I doubt they'll have cross-realm initially. They'll wait to see if queues take too long, then "maybe" introduce it. And if they do, I'll never enter a Scenario again.

----------------------------------
What I'll be glad not to have is, PvE gear being necessary for PvP. AND, said gear not being a massive jump in superiority between two levels. MC gear (T1) was the end of casual PvP in WoW. Someone sporting the 5-man instance gear set, was no match at all against they Raid people. It was something like a 50-100% spike in effectiveness! Fortunately, it seems likely that gear in WAR will not being making such leaps in power from one set to the next.

[mongoose]

I wouldn't be surprised if about half of those things made their way into WAR. If not directly, then as a WAR-equivalent (i.e. obviously there won't be NE Hunters, but there may still be a class that's overplayed).

Oh, and grinding? If you don't think there'll be plenty of that in WAR, you're sadly mistaken. It's a staple of MMORPGs.

Yeah, just about everything in MMOs is a grind of one sort or another. So this is an inescapable fact. The trick is in making the grind not feel like one. :cool:

[ZeppelinJ0]

It's in my opinion that WAR will do a lot of things to make WoW players come to this game... A lot of what you mentioned most likely will be or already is in WAR, as I'm sure Mythic has realized that WoW players are getting burnt out and are hoping to be the migrating factor away from WoW.

Don't get me wrong WoW wasn't bad, but I just really don't want to play the same game again, so I can only hope that a lot of the similarities(and copies) are purely cosmetic.

[Bakebehe]

For someone to write that many words complaining about a game, and then telling us you played it for 3 years..I guess I won't be missing the great community spirit of the WoW forums, it seems to have made its way to WAR.

Here's the one thing I'll be glad to get rid of. If Paul was telling me the truth.

The requirement to spend at least 20 hours a week in dungeons to keep up with the cutting edge.

[Tea TIme With Death]

Gl in WAR and most other MMos with #'s
2
4
8
9(it is everywhere along with U LIEK MUDKIPZ?!, u cant avoid it DEAL)
11
12 (there is no weapon/armor crafting and trade skills are all "enhancing items")
15 (they in every game DEAL)
17


You will sadly dissappointed my friend.

[Amagoi]

You forgot constant ganking and camping my good fellow. ;)

[Wild]

Unfortunately it seems stealth will be in game and it threatens to destroy balance and bring WoW rogues back!I guess Mythic thought that stealth will be a good way to lure even more players.If they keep continuing like this not holding on their words and brining WoW elements into game in order to make a profit every thing on your list and more might make it into WAR game at the end.Which would be one huge disappointment considering Mythic has some of its own original ideas who are getting slowly kicked out of game(example character appearance changing through levels, no stealth,ect...) in favour of the one which will make game successful in sales like Blizzard .

If this actually happens they might lose more customers over period of time because of failing to deliver something new,original and creative.For now game look promising but stealth is big minus to me especially after Paul said there will be no chance of it making into game(one of many fake promises?)Considering i played stealth classes,fought against them i know how they can screw balance,but now there is nothing else to do apart waiting hoping beta testers will make them reconsider and remove it once for all from the game or at least balance it in some way to fit the game even though i think that is hardly possible unless it is working in some way that restrict movement while under it but then it wouldn't be called stealth at first place.

So Pogo better wait till Warhammer actually releases and then make your list :wink: I hope it won't be in in need of shortening that only two lines from your thread are left...

[Bakebehe]

Stealth was never unbalanced. 1v1 balancing was never their intention. Why has this not gotten through to people yet.

[Are'el]

Oh for the last time, "stealth =/= Rogues." Rogues in WoW were overpowered, yes. But that was a combination of several advantages, not just stealth.

--Unmatched Melee DPS
--Unbelievable first strike damage
--One of the best CC spells in the game
--Disappearing in battle

The Witch Hunter and Witch Elf are not unqique in their MDPS capability (4 other classes are equal to them). The stealth they're talking about gives positional advantage, not "omfg 1-shotted!" CC is minimal in WAR, and it's doubtful that the MDPS have much in the way of stuns (probably snares, instead, which means you can fight back). And once you're exposed and engaged in combat, you probably won't be able to fade back into stealth.

Not to mention the speculation that stealth will probably eat away at your AP while activated.

[Farore]

How about: 'standing around in a town doing bugger all, for the sake of playing the game, because you don't have enough energy to farm and/or have simply lost interest in the game and are remaining for the benefit of friends'

WAR will be new and shiny, with fresh RvR to keep people entertained, when (if) this starts to happen, something fundamentally wrong has happened in the games evolution. (that or you're just playing the thing too damn much).

[Kayella]

Enchanting is tops. I made so much gold from it - enough to buy exalted rep and all 4 cross-faction mounts, and epic flying mounts for 4 different characters - all before the daily quest nonsense. And when there was a new armour set for people to get, big time profits again :)

One of the things I really disliked in wow was the cross-realm BGs. Before that was implemented, there was actual rivalry between horde and alliance and between the handful of organised pvp teams.

WoW itself isn't a bad game, in fact it does what it's supposed to do very well. I think the people most upset with wow now are the people who are looking for a pvp game.

[Rivers]

WoW itself isn't a bad game, in fact it does what it's supposed to do very well. I think the people most upset with wow now are the people who have burnt themselves out and blame the game for it.
Fixed.

Ten characters.

[Ruinx]

Fixed.

Ten characters.

Kinda, but the reality is more complex than that. People often quit WoW before burnout, or play only for a short time before certain features irritate them into stopping. It does account for a lot of particularly passionate WoW-haters, though. This thread is more about the intellectual dislike of specific features of WoW, instead of the passionate, illogical hatred of burnout, so I doubt people here are examples of that.

Personally things from WoW that I REALLY won't miss:

"Raiders should get everything everyone else gets, for free, without extra time or effort"

There seems to be a firm belief amongst WoW's designers, that basically everyone who doesn't raid, whether because they're on a limited time budget, just hate raiding, or for really any other reason, is an inferior being. They understand that the vast majority of their players don't do raids on any regular basis (as far as we can infer from even the statistics Blizzard themselves provide), and are willing to "throw them a bone", but it's clear from recent changes that every bone given to non-raiders must be given to raiders as well, only, instead of having to work for it, they will be given it as a "side-bonus" of their raiding.

The clearest recent examples:

A) All raid dungeons now drop fairly large amounts of Badges of Justice. So if you can clear Kara, here you go, 20 bonus Badges for that, even though they've not y'know, increased the difficulty or anything. If you don't want to do Kara, well, now you know how dumb you were for doing all those Heroics (which, in practice, often require more time/effort than Kara). If you clear other raids, you get more. All without an extra effort.

I've seen no logical justification for this, just a "who cares!", and it's clear that the only possible reason for instituiting it was to reduce the amount of effort raiders had to make to get Badge gear for their off-spec sets and so on.

B) T4/5 tokens can be handed in for S1/2 gear (presumably S2/3 gear after Season 4 starts, but we'll see). So those tokens that were going to waste? Now you can save yourself literally weeks of BG grinding. Look at those dumb-bum PvPers, slaving away! Hahaha! If only they knew how raiders are better people than PvPers, thus more deserving, and should be granted free epics, even though you PvPers were told you had to "earn" yours.

Note, that, OF COURSE, you cannot buy T4/5 gear for honor. No that would reward people who aren't raiders, and we simply couldn't have that now, could we?

/rolleyes. Really, really, really glad that PvE and PvP gear aren't separated in WAR, and that you can get good gear from both activities.

Arenas are the best form of PvP!

Oh I know, let's make it so PvPers "pvp" in a totally controlled environment and have to fight members of their own faction (even though this goes against our game's basic concept) and there's no objectives beyond killing the opponents and we'll make this the most important and rewarding form of PvP! Let's also ignore all the blatantly obvious exploits, even when people tell us about them in detail months before we launch the system, then act all surprised and horrified when they materialize. Also we'll make it so it's a "rich get richer" system that's hard to get into on the ground floor! Genius!

I mean whaaa? How much, exactly, do you have to hate side-based PvP and the entire concept of "Horde Vs Alliance" (HvA as the WoW manual puts it) to think that this is a good idea? With Season 4, not only will Arena continue to be the only place to get top-notch PvP gear (instead of, y'know, actual PvP/HvA), but items earned with HONOR, which can only be had in ACTUAL PvP, not Arenas, will require Arena rating requirements. The mind boggles. Not only were PvPers already at a disadvantage to Arena types in that Arena points gear was off-limits, but now their OWN gear (i.e. belt, bracers, boots) is being taken away from them!

Every sign points of WoW's lead PvP designer (who, predictably, exploits the Arena system mercilessly with his War/Druid 2v2 team) continuing to force all of WoW's major PvP rewards/gear to come from the Arenas, not from actual side-based PvP (which really flies in the face of the idea of WARcraft).

So, really, really not going to miss that. It always particularly sickened me to have to kill my realm-mates when there was supposedly a low-intensity war going on.

No sense of being part of a "realm" whatsoever.

One would expect a game based on Warcraft: Orcs vs Humans (amongst other things) to have a pretty strong sense of "realm pride" or "side pride". Yet, because of WoW's peculiar PvE and PvP design, there was none. Guilds were always better off screwing other guilds, where possible, rather than working together, PvE "progression" was for the longest time, the only way to get good gear, and ideally it was kept "in-guild", particularly with the limited number of people allowed, and the nature of WoW's slow-resetting instances. So at the endgame, most strife was between people on the same side. At least in DAoC most strife was cross-faction ("omg u cheap mids aj'd us when we were rolling those albs" said the Hib groupleader on the VNboards)

Are'el says that "hardcore guilds will have keep schedules". This is clearly impossible, because the other side can destroy an "schedule" you try to keep, either by the defending the keep, taking yours, forcing you out of the zone entirely in T4, and so on. Further, even if a "hardcore, exclusionary" guild attacks a keep, you can simply tag a long, whether they like it or not. Further, as keep rewards work on a PQ basis, they can't exclude you from that, either. If your group did as good a job as any of theirs, then you're just as likely to get the loot, whether that makes them weep or cheer.

This is entirely different to WoW. If keeps were in WoW, you can bet that the raid-group who "tagged" the keep lord would get all the loot, even if they were ineffectual, and that people who interfered could probably be reported as "griefers". That's how all the outdoor bosses work in WoW.

Even scheduling "king raids" will be impossible, because you can't just decide, as one guild, to "take down a city". You need an effort from multiple guilds together, along with dozens or hundreds of random people on your side. This WILL encourage realm pride, side solidarity, and so on.

Cross-realm BGs/scenarios could damage said pride somewhat, but they won't destroy it outright, not when there's real world PvP to be had.

[Sykishi]

why do people hate on 9. so much? im ot going to lie i love chuck norris jokes, alot of them are stupid but some of them are hilarious.

[Rivers]

There seems to be a firm belief amongst WoW's designers, that basically everyone who doesn't raid, whether because they're on a limited time budget, just hate raiding, or for really any other reason, is an inferior being. They understand that the vast majority of their players don't do raids on any regular basis (as far as we can infer from even the statistics Blizzard themselves provide), and are willing to "throw them a bone", but it's clear from recent changes that every bone given to non-raiders must be given to raiders as well, only, instead of having to work for it, they will be given it as a "side-bonus" of their raiding.

A) All raid dungeons now drop fairly large amounts of Badges of Justice. So if you can clear Kara, here you go, 20 bonus Badges for that, even though they've not y'know, increased the difficulty or anything. If you don't want to do Kara, well, now you know how dumb you were for doing all those Heroics (which, in practice, often require more time/effort than Kara). If you clear other raids, you get more. All without an extra effort.

I've seen no logical justification for this, just a "who cares!", and it's clear that the only possible reason for instituiting it was to reduce the amount of effort raiders had to make to get Badge gear for their off-spec sets and so on.

B) T4/5 tokens can be handed in for S1/2 gear (presumably S2/3 gear after Season 4 starts, but we'll see). So those tokens that were going to waste? Now you can save yourself literally weeks of BG grinding. Look at those dumb-bum PvPers, slaving away! Hahaha! If only they knew how raiders are better people than PvPers, thus more deserving, and should be granted free epics, even though you PvPers were told you had to "earn" yours.

Note, that, OF COURSE, you cannot buy T4/5 gear for honor. No that would reward people who aren't raiders, and we simply couldn't have that now, could we?

/rolleyes. Really, really, really glad that PvE and PvP gear aren't separated in WAR, and that you can get good gear from both activities.
You've got to be kidding me. Do you know the sheet amount of people skipping raiding in WoW and going straight for the welfare epics? Yes, raiders do get stuff thrown at them, but this is an attempt on Blizzard's part to make bothering with 9/24 other people somewhat worth it.

Heroics may be, in theory, harder than Kara or Gruul's, but incompetency is rampant in WoW; rarely will you find 24 individuals who don't slack in the least.

I don't like raiding either (it doesn't stand up the intrigue and tactics of PvP), but no, PvPers are not getting screwed over. Things are actually quite better than they were pre-TBC. Do you recall the days of needing to have BWL-and-higher gear in order to PvP? Things are pretty awesome right now in terms of getting rewards in PvP.

Oh I know, let's make it so PvPers "pvp" in a totally controlled environment and have to fight members of their own faction (even though this goes against our game's basic concept) and there's no objectives beyond killing the opponents and we'll make this the most important and rewarding form of PvP! Let's also ignore all the blatantly obvious exploits, even when people tell us about them in detail months before we launch the system, then act all surprised and horrified when they materialize. Also we'll make it so it's a "rich get richer" system that's hard to get into on the ground floor! Genius!

I mean whaaa? How much, exactly, do you have to hate side-based PvP and the entire concept of "Horde Vs Alliance" (HvA as the WoW manual puts it) to think that this is a good idea? With Season 4, not only will Arena continue to be the only place to get top-notch PvP gear (instead of, y'know, actual PvP/HvA), but items earned with HONOR, which can only be had in ACTUAL PvP, not Arenas, will require Arena rating requirements. The mind boggles. Not only were PvPers already at a disadvantage to Arena types in that Arena points gear was off-limits, but now their OWN gear (i.e. belt, bracers, boots) is being taken away from them!

Every sign points of WoW's lead PvP designer (who, predictably, exploits the Arena system mercilessly with his War/Druid 2v2 team) continuing to force all of WoW's major PvP rewards/gear to come from the Arenas, not from actual side-based PvP (which really flies in the face of the idea of WARcraft).

So, really, really not going to miss that. It always particularly sickened me to have to kill my realm-mates when there was supposedly a low-intensity war going on.
Let me say this loud and clear: WoW was never a "realm game." Got it? Good. Did you play WC3? At the end, the races were, in fact, allied. So no, there isn't a built-in hatred in any of the races (unlike Warhammer's shallow Nazi races).

When I first took notice of WoW, the main selling point appeared to be "delving into the world of Azeroth," and other fluff. PvP was barely mentioned on the box. There is no war going on between Horde and Alliance. Sure, they may be fighting over Warsong Gulch, Arathi Basin, and Alterac Valley, but those constitute mainly as skirmishes.

People use Warcraft's name as a reason to hate on arenas ("olololo it's no WARcraft ne moar lulz"), but the name "Warcraft" was only used for the sake of having a hint of familiarity for gamers.

Say you want huge, epic warfare between two or more sides. In this case, WoW is not your game. WoW appeals more to casuals (who often like doing things at their own pace and don't like immediate, spontaneous events) and those who like basic, sport-like PvP (every competitive sport on Earth is "enclosed").

I don't see how a Warrior/Druid 2v2 team is exploiting; rather, it is using how the game works to the best of your advantage. That's min-maxing and it happens in every single game. This happens in DotA and in everything that is competitive. I'm sorry, but squeezing every advantage you can is not exploiting; rather, it is playing to win (which it appears many scrubs don't wish to do). Every class in WoW has at least one class they pair well with in 2v2s so no class is ever obsolete.

In short, you were obviously playing the wrong game if you thought WoW was an RvR game.

One would expect a game based on Warcraft: Orcs vs Humans (amongst other things) to have a pretty strong sense of "realm pride" or "side pride". Yet, because of WoW's peculiar PvE and PvP design, there was none. Guilds were always better off screwing other guilds, where possible, rather than working together, PvE "progression" was for the longest time, the only way to get good gear, and ideally it was kept "in-guild", particularly with the limited number of people allowed, and the nature of WoW's slow-resetting instances. So at the endgame, most strife was between people on the same side. At least in DAoC most strife was cross-faction ("omg u cheap mids aj'd us when we were rolling those albs" said the Hib groupleader on the VNboards)

Are'el says that "hardcore guilds will have keep schedules". This is clearly impossible, because the other side can destroy an "schedule" you try to keep, either by the defending the keep, taking yours, forcing you out of the zone entirely in T4, and so on. Further, even if a "hardcore, exclusionary" guild attacks a keep, you can simply tag a long, whether they like it or not. Further, as keep rewards work on a PQ basis, they can't exclude you from that, either. If your group did as good a job as any of theirs, then you're just as likely to get the loot, whether that makes them weep or cheer.

This is entirely different to WoW. If keeps were in WoW, you can bet that the raid-group who "tagged" the keep lord would get all the loot, even if they were ineffectual, and that people who interfered could probably be reported as "griefers". That's how all the outdoor bosses work in WoW.

Even scheduling "king raids" will be impossible, because you can't just decide, as one guild, to "take down a city". You need an effort from multiple guilds together, along with dozens or hundreds of random people on your side. This WILL encourage realm pride, side solidarity, and so on.

Cross-realm BGs/scenarios could damage said pride somewhat, but they won't destroy it outright, not when there's real world PvP to be had.

Warcraft 3 is mostly what WoW is based on, and if you played through WC3's campaign, you would have seen that faction-based warfare is much less of a concern. Instead, it's about all the mortal races banding together against a much larger and universal threat (the Burning Legion).

I think I'll rephrase the tired WoW Haters Alliance saying for my own purposes: WoW is not DAoC. WoW has always been focused on the individual or the individual's group of friends. Whether this is bad or not depends on the individual's view. But don't bloody say that WoW fails because it's not RvR; that's like saying that Japanese food is disgusting because it isn't Italian food.

I don't play WoW seriously (key word: seriously) anymore because I want more out of the MMOG genre (and to a lesser extent, because the focus is less for me). I don't throw a hissy-fit and try to get the developers to change the game for me. "It's not you, it's me." WoW is amazing game of its type; to ignorantly hate on it is like listening to jazz music and complaining how it should be more like rock music.

[Reeve]

You forgot the awesome paper/rock/scissors match ups. I loved fighting warlocks on my mage...oh wait. It sounds like the variety they offer within a single class will help neutralize that.

[Rivers]

You forgot the awesome paper/rock/scissors match ups. I loved fighting warlocks on my mage...oh wait. It sounds like the variety they offer within a single class will help neutralize that.
If you thought WoW had rock-paper-scissors class systems, why are you on a forum for WAR? The WAR dev team has actually gone ahead and blankly stated that certain class types have clear-cut advantages over certain class types.

WoW actually keeps the rock-paper-scissors to a minimum. Yes, certain classes may have certain exceptionally strong abilities, but gone are the days of the "I WIN" button. A match between equally-geared combatants each with optimum talent specs can usually be decided by individual skill.

[Reeve]

WoW actually keeps the rock-paper-scissors to a minimum. Yes, certain classes may have certain exceptionally strong abilities, but gone are the days of the "I WIN" button.
Paper/rock/scissors in WoW was horrible. I'm fine with certain classes having a distinct advantage over another as they've stated. Honestly, all I'm looking for is ...
A match between equally-geared combatants each with optimum talent specs can usually be decided by individual skill.

[Rivers]

Paper/rock/scissors in WoW was horrible. I'm fine with certain classes having a distinct advantage over another as they've stated.
This combination of sentences makes no sense. You don't like rock-paper-scissors, but you do like rock-paper-scissors, but you want matches to be decided by individual skill. It helps one's argument if they can decide on what they're arguing for.

Have you played WoW recently? I'd say things are quite balanced, much more so than many other multi-player games (it's not perfect by any means, but it's at a stable level). If you have played WoW recently, why don't you go into detail as to why rock-paper-scissors was so prevalent in WoW instead of throwing it out like it's an obvious fact?

[Reeve]

This combination of sentences makes no sense. You don't like rock-paper-scissors, but you do like rock-paper-scissors, but you want matches to be decided by individual skill. It helps one's argument if they can decide on what they're arguing for.

Have you played WoW recently? I'd say things are quite balanced, much more so than many other multi-player games (it's not perfect by any means, but it's at a stable level). If you have played WoW recently, why don't you go into detail as to why rock-paper-scissors was so prevalent in WoW instead of throwing it out like it's an obvious fact?
Having a distinct advantage over another != "IWIN". You're putting words into my mouth. An advantage is something that can be overcome, paper/rock/scissors is not.

No, I haven't played WoW in a while. What really got me was how OP locks and priest were against mages, how OP rogues were against locks, how OP mages were against warriors. I'm not saying class-defining abilities in WAR won't resemble those matchups. I'm just hoping the inner-class variety is enough to shift the X > Y to a more balanced fight.

[Rivers]

You're putting words into my mouth.
That I was. My apologies.

No, I haven't played WoW in a while. What really got me was how OP locks and priest were against mages, how OP rogues were against locks, how OP mages were against warriors. I'm not saying class-defining abilities in WAR won't resemble those matchups. I'm just hoping the inner-class variety is enough to shift the X > Y to a more balanced fight.
Currently in WoW, classes do not have "I WIN" buttons. A good Lock can take out a Rogue, a good Mage can take out a Lock, and so on. In addition, large increases in Stamina and the addition of Resilience both help make fights longer.

[miber]

Let me say this loud and clear: WoW was never a "realm game." Got it? Good. Did you play WC3? At the end, the races were, in fact, allied. So no, there isn't a built-in hatred in any of the races (unlike Warhammer's shallow Nazi races).I had a big response written up to this, but I didn't want to end up derailing the thread to much.

Basically, though, I think you're wrong about that. The alliance (not to be confused with "the Alliance") at the end of WC3 was with the Lordaeron human refugees, not the Stormwind humans. Also, the tenuous pact between the horde and the Lordaeron humans had faded in the years between WC3 and WoW. Lastly, the WoW Night Elves aren't exactly the same as they were back then, either (losing their immortality, new world tree, new Arch Druid). There's definitely some racial hatred in Warcraft, although I'd agree that tends not to be as absolute as in Warhammer (neutral cities, people with varying levels of racial tolerance, etc).

-----

But, anyway, all of that aside - I agree with most of what you said, and I'm glad you responded to Ruinx so I didn't have to. :p The gear situation now, is so much better than it used to be it's not even funny. Back in the pre-BC days you literally had to raid for competitive gear. Now a days, you can 5-man for good gear, and PvP for gear that's very good for PvP. It may not be perfect, but they've definitely made things better, rather than worse.

[Rivers]

Basically, though, I think you're wrong about that. The alliance (not to be confused with "the Alliance") at the end of WC3 was with the Lordaeron human refugees, not the Stormwind humans. Also, the tenuous pact between the horde and the Lordaeron humans had faded in the years between WC3 and WoW. Lastly, the WoW Night Elves aren't exactly the same as they were back then, either (losing their immortality, new world tree, new Arch Druid). There's definitely some racial hatred in Warcraft, although I'd agree that tends not to be as absolute as in Warhammer (neutral cities, people with varying levels of racial tolerance, etc).
Good points there; much appreciated.

That aside, however, Blizzard never talked about WoW like it was going have a Horde vs. Alliance focus; that is my main point.

[Doscoheed]

All of this. I was looking back at the WoW Website the other day, reading up a bit on the forums, and for once, I didn't feel compelled to re-supscribe. The reason listed above were the reasons why. When I see what kind of game I CAN play, even if I can't play it at this time, why settle for less?

Game Over, WoW.

[Saracen]

Yeah yeah, hack hack, bash bash, WoW was horrible, we know.....


Seriously folks, let it go! There are dozens of threads on these boards whose purpose was originally, or descended into, bashing WoW.

Yeah. It has serious problems, but you want to know the cause of them all? The player base. Most everyone, probably including some who read these boards, and definitely a great many future WAR players were part of the problem. That game, from release, could have gone PvP had the player base desired it. They didn't overall, and in my opinion that made the game less then optimal. BUT, it was still a hell of a game, the scenery was great, the quests were immersing, and it had an overall fantastic and epic feeling throughout. To this day, I have taken no greater pleasure in any game, then I did when I PvP'ed in Ashenvale and Hillsbrad at release, or then when I quested in Winterspring, or then when my raid progressed through MC for the first time. These things were all fun, and while Blizzard hasn't improved much of anything since release, it still is, and always will be, a great game.

[Kimmurial]

WoW is a great game if you dont reach lvl 70 or PvP...

I just HATED the fact that when you reach max lvl, your either stuck farming BGs/Arenas for honor/marks to get the best non raid gear or you actually raid which always felt more like a job to me than anything, especially on my 70 holy pally !

With the free PvP gear, everyone looks the same and everyone has the same spec

For my last days of gameplay all i did was flying around with my netherdrake, then i realised that i should definetly quit this game, and i did 2 months ago and im not going back... If im forced to grind, ill grind Public quests and RvR battles :D

I remember back in the days when you got an epic item you actually had a hard-on and it was really special !!!

-Kim

[Rivers]

I actually haven't responsed to the original post yet! I'll do that now.

Intro: The only people who played WoW expecting a war-based game were those who (a) didn't play Warcraft 3, but played WC1&2 or (b) saw the word "war" in the title and paid no attention to the advertising and progress of WoW up to release. Again, nothing should have led one to believe WoW would be a heavy Horde vs. Alliance game.

1. The lower amounts of classes allowed Blizzard to make very distinct classes instead of ones that feel like carbon-copies of each other.

Each race is very distinct; that is, in a visual sense.

If you seriously felt pressured or ridiculed for choosing the wrong race, you need to understand: the Internet is a hate machine.

2. This doesn't even count as a valid complaint. You're going to see the same thing with High Elf Shadow Warriors in WAR.

3. Yeah, this currently a problem, but Blizzard has acknowledged this and is attempting something different in WotLK (Lake Wintergrasp).

4. Scheduled raids were a result of the player-base in order to get optimal progression and no, they did not arise in WoW, they are a relic of EverQuest. Last I checked, WAR is going to have raids too, and even if there weren't any raids, people will always be scheduling times for most people to be on to play together.

5. Again, WoW has not been touted as a faction versus faction game. The arena is not warfare, if you didn't realize by now; no, it counts more as a sport. You know how American football teams fight amongst themselves? Yeah, it's like that.

6. These areas are either lore-filled zones for the purpose of portraying a looming threat greater than the opposite faction (Shattrath) or merchant towns that don't actually brutally enforce anti-PvP rules.

7. Yes, this is something that has disappointed me, but remember, there's no incentive for World PvP in WoW so even if flying mounts weren't in, you still wouldn't be doing too much fighting.

8. Auction houses are pretty much MMOG staples now and you should expect to see them in WAR.

9. Welcome to the Internet! I hope you realize that immaturity and hate is the law.

10. That's an artwork beef and is something that does not constitute as a valid complaint. Warcraft is one of the most cartoon-ey and fleshed-out fantasy worlds I've ever seen; it possesses quite a bit of style. If you were expecting a serious fantasy world, Warcraft was not for you.

11. We've already seen Witch Hunters possessing a slight variant on stealth. And now-a-days, stealth is only a true advantage in World PvP (which only happens while leveling up on a PvP server). There are plenty counters to it now.

12. Supply and demand, my friend. Enchanting is probably the greatest show of real-world economics in WoW (since gear doesn't ever fully deteriorate). Don't like having to deal with other people? Well, if that is the case, I'm not sure why you were playing an MMO in the first place.

13. I suppose you have a beef with games like Counter-Strike, Starcraft, Chess, Go, Hockey, etc., then? WoW has never been focused on mass warfare as I've stated before in this thread. While WoW will never be taken seriously as a sport due to luck-based elements (such as critical hits, dodge, parry, etc), that's what its PvP focus is right now.

14. Yeah, twinks aren't fun.

15. Again: it's the Internet. Hate is the national language.

16. Is this a complaint with the size of the world? Would you rather force players to drag themselves to their destination, or would you rather is be like Oblivion, with the ability to teleport everywhere?

17. Cross-realm BGs were a response to aggravating wait times, a valid reason for implementing such a system.

18. This has happened with every single MMOG to date. While it's a shame WoW couldn't avoid the trend, by no means is Blizzard to be singled out for this.


Summary: you have a couple of valid complaints, but every single other complaint seems to be due to your fantastic (and unrealistic) expectations letting you down.

WoW is a great game if you dont reach lvl 70 or PvP...

I just HATED the fact that when you reach max lvl, your either stuck farming BGs/Arenas for honor/marks to get the best non raid gear or you actually raid which always felt more like a job to me than anything, especially on my 70 holy pally !
Tell me: what did you think would happen once you hit 70? What were you doing up until the level cap that you couldn't do at the level cap? The only thing one can't do at the level cap is level. Maybe you've seen it all, done it all; you can't expect much more from Blizzard since they're dedicated to delivering completely solid content on a completely fluid schedule.

With the free PvP gear, everyone looks the same and everyone has the same spec
Nah, not everyone has the same spec (there are a few optimal ones, but no "one-size-fits-all" builds). The welfare epics just further prove the sports-like feel that Blizzard is attempting to achieve with their PvP.

For my last days of gameplay all i did was flying around with my netherdrake, then i realised that i should definetly quit this game, and i did 2 months ago and im not going back... If im forced to grind, ill grind Public quests and RvR battles :D
What if the Public Quests and the keep sieging gets repetitious? Will you complain about "the grind" and how terrible end-game is then? You see, until an MMO developer can find some way to have content created on the fly or by players, there's always going to be that end-game stagnancy. WoW is not be singled out on this.

I remember back in the days when you got an epic item you actually had a hard-on and it was really special !!!
That's because everyone was busy leveling and those who had hit 60 were the first ones there. This will happen with WAR and will only last until a significant number has hit the level cap. This is logic: the mystery goes away once you know everything.

[Kimmurial]

Tell me: what did you think would happen once you hit 70? What were you doing up until the level cap that you couldn't do at the level cap? The only thing one can't do at the level cap is level. Maybe you've seen it all, done it all; you can't expect much more from Blizzard since they're dedicated to delivering completely solid content on a completely fluid schedule.


Nah, not everyone has the same spec (there are a few optimal ones, but no "one-size-fits-all" builds). The welfare epics just further prove the sports-like feel that Blizzard is attempting to achieve with their PvP.


What if the Public Quests and the keep sieging gets repetitious? Will you complain about "the grind" and how terrible end-game is then? You see, until an MMO developer can find some way to have content created on the fly or by players, there's always going to be that end-game stagnancy. WoW is not be singled out on this.


That's because everyone was busy leveling and those who had hit 60 were the first ones there. This will happen with WAR and will only last until a significant number has hit the level cap. This is logic: the mystery goes away once you know everything.

PvP is not tedious, its what it represents in WoW, an easy way to gear, you get nothing else out of it... WAR with the PvE/PvP mix, it wont be the same, people will actually work togheter and get to know each other while getting personal and group rewards (realm pride)

I really had some amazing times in WoW... but BC and the changes it made to PvP and PvE (90% of instances in Outland suck) pushed me away

-Kim

[Wild]

Stealth was never unbalanced. 1v1 balancing was never their intention. Why has this not gotten through to people yet.

You mean "Stealth was never balanced at first place"? That would sound right,but who's intention do you speak of?If you talk about WoW then you can clearly see they are doing everything to balance game and thats why numerous classes over time got nerfed and toned down to try make balance as much as they can.If you talk about Mythic they also said something like "to have a balanced game you need a 1v1 to be balanced at first place"and Mythic is trying to do that.Can't find exact quite but they know in order to have a good game,good PvP you need it to be balanced and not rock/paper/scissors and hopefully they will succeed in doing that .

Oh for the last time, "stealth =/= Rogues." Rogues in WoW were overpowered, yes. But that was a combination of several advantages, not just stealth.

--Unmatched Melee DPS
--Unbelievable first strike damage
--One of the best CC spells in the game
--Disappearing in battle

The Witch Hunter and Witch Elf are not unqique in their MDPS capability (4 other classes are equal to them). The stealth they're talking about gives positional advantage, not "omfg 1-shotted!" CC is minimal in WAR, and it's doubtful that the MDPS have much in the way of stuns (probably snares, instead, which means you can fight back). And once you're exposed and engaged in combat, you probably won't be able to fade back into stealth.

Not to mention the speculation that stealth will probably eat away at your AP while activated.

I am not talking just about WoW rogues i am talking about every type of stealth skill that i confronted in multiply MMO's.I was Infiltrator in Daoc and stealth was big advantage over classes who didn't have one there too.About other advantages you list i can tell you what advantage i see stealth doing in WAR which were annoying players through many MMO games.Considering positional attacks it is already said that it is one of Witch Elves core mechanic.As an answer to everything you said i have this video http://warhammervault.ign.com/View.php?view=Movies.Detail&id=100 in which you can see

A)Witch Elves have opener like rogues in WoW called Ferocious assault who can be used before you go into combat
B)They have Elixir of Insane power which when used together with opener i named above will go in list of "Unbelievable first strike damage"as you wrote above

(i am talking about WE mostly because more info is known about them)*

You will be able to fade back in stealth just if you use some thinking in doing CC(and they will have it for sure even if its minimal duration)like stun,sprint(which will all MDPS have as i can see so far)wait to get out of combat and disappear.About eating away your Action points:i didn't saw that in Witch Hunter "stealth video",it's matter of how much AP will it use considering AP regen is fast and it may be so little that you will be in a position to be able to never leave stealth or it may be much so that stealth will brake fast but i doubt second option will be in.
About this points you listed:

"Unmatched Melee DPS"-It is said the more weaker armor you have the more dps you do and considering WE and WH are that type they will be also the best Melee DPS and will be unmatched at that.The difference in damage between them and another MDPS i don't know how big will it be but still they will be probably best for pure DPS.

--"Unbelievable first strike damage"they probably won't have that but will have some positional attack that can be done only at start of battle and behind enemy's back which will make it usable from stealth primarily i don't know how strong will it be but for sure it won't be weak(check video above to see opener they have now)

--"One of the best CC spells in the game"They won't have much CC spells as rogues you list as example do but they will for sure have them i don't know how much strong will they be but they will be there.

--"Disappearing in battle"I don't know will it work in WAR but lets assume you can't stealth in combat like in other game.They will still have options to disappear in order to escape when outnumbered or so using skills i mentioned above like "Agile Escape"and sprint that they said all melee class will have.So when you are in trouble just use Agile Escape then sprint you are out of combat and "PUUF!"you are no more and nobody can see you,catch you,hurt you etc etc.....

Things that stealth make strong and unfair to no stealth classes are not all under damage situations there is also:

1)Being able to spy on your enemy's them not seeing you until you call help to overpower them and thus they have no chance to kill you before they see you when its too late.
2)Situation where you are only class!in game that can decide when to attack when you are in close proximity of target giving you option to wait and attack when target is weakest,alone,low on health,or distracted fighting someone else.
3)Being able to magically disappear after you see odds are against you and when enemy is chasing you
4)Sneaking and capturing enemy position behind enemy defense which would be impossible if you don't have stealth.
5)Fooling opponent to come into fight thinking odds are either on his side or are at least even.Example:One Swordmaster attacks one Chosen and then suddenly poof two Witch Elves suddenly appear which is making odds terribly worse for you while making them terribly unfair advantage of said Witch Elves classes.
6)Destroying rule Mythic said they will have in game"What you see,what you get"{something like that :) } which makes enemy in unfair position,wondering should he attack,are there stealth classes there,is it okay for me to sit and regain my health,making him threatened by things he can't see and giving him false feel of security on some places just when some stealth classes jumps in and finish him.Having stealth in game would also require to make anti-stealth abilities like as an example WoW did but that still didn't help them to make stealth much less powerfull though it helped other classes to have some way to defend against it even when it didn't work best when needed and when you get surprised.

This are just some reasons why stealth shouldn't be in game and why i hope Mythic will reconsider and reverse their decision thus keeping to their words which they spoke when making announcement for game saying that is one of things which makes them different then others.I can always go back to some other MMO and play stealth having fun,hearing how people around me complain on it but Mythic has only one chance to do it right and to make game truly different then others and not go with the flow to put stealth in game just cause all other games in their genre have it.


Currently in WoW, classes do not have "I WIN" buttons. A good Lock can take out a Rogue, a good Mage can take out a Lock, and so on. In addition, large increases in Stamina and the addition of Resilience both help make fights longer.

That is true and it will be same in WAR even though they announced arch types of every classes things like this help game balance more then WoW ever did and we might have perfectly balanced game ahead of us,even more if they remove stealth for reasons i stated above.
"Warhammer Vault: How much do positional attacks make in the damage of a melee DPS? In a face-to-face fight, would a Tank do similar damage compared to a DPS (perhaps in slow, massive hits rather than fast, multiple hits?), but the DPS would do more damage?

Melee DPS careers do significantly more damage face to face than Tanks do. This is because they have significantly less HP & Armor. As such, for a fight to be even between a tank and a Melee DPS career, the Melee DPS has to do more damage per hit to overcome the significant armor mitigation of that damage and the Tank's Increased HP. The lighter the armor the MDPS Career has, the higher its damage output. Which leads into the next question: if tanks do low damage how do we keep tank on tank fights from taking 3 years? Simple: Armor penetration. Based on your weaponskill, all of your attacks penetrate a certain percentage of your target's armor. While this has less effect on targets with lighter armor, it has a significant effect on targets with high armor. Tanks as a whole have very high weaponskill, so instead of dealing large amounts of damage with +DMG bonus from strength they can ignore more of their opponent's armor instead.

This helps keep the heavy defense tanks balanced vs lighter armored careers since the damage bonus from armor penetration is not nearly as good vs Med or Light armors."

You can see that they said how they want to balance game and make it even on different classes which is what WoW didn't think of before realizing game and then when they saw error in their ways they tried to fix it with tons of patches but even if they make it more balanced they never succeed 100 % in it.Mythic won't do that either but it will be closer in it then WoW.

[Darkcyde]

14. Twinks they ruined that bracket of pvp by puting you up against nearly impossible odds and basically showed you everything that is important or fun doing in the game will boil down to being max level. Until then, they will screw with you every step of the way.


QFMFT

I played WoW for a while, 2 70's and BT/MH Raiding experience, and I'll probably get flamed for this but I loved it. It got boring, but I did love it. You guys want pain? Play FFXI for 3 years. ; ;

WAR to me, from constant researching of the game and it's Lore background (Desk job FTW) seems to fit better for me in every aspect, and the dev's have said repeatedly that alot of things WoW did worked and they're learning from that, but improving the key factor we all yearned for in previous MMO experiences but no company ever wanted to perfect for us, PVP. EA/Mythic's idea's and designs so far have me intrigued, because from my point of view they're perfecting the MMO and have said repeatedly they're using the past as an example of both what TO do, and what NOT to do. I think it's gonna be awesome.

So yeah, yay WAR, screw WoW I guess. But come on, you guys who played don't remember it being fun at all? Be honest, Blizz scored on alot of points. I think they just lost sight after a while and have now strayed too far to round out their model.

[Bakebehe]

"Raiders should get everything everyone else gets, for free, without extra time or effort"

There seems to be a firm belief amongst WoW's designers, that basically everyone who doesn't raid, whether because they're on a limited time budget, just hate raiding, or for really any other reason, is an inferior being. They understand that the vast majority of their players don't do raids on any regular basis (as far as we can infer from even the statistics Blizzard themselves provide), and are willing to "throw them a bone", but it's clear from recent changes that every bone given to non-raiders must be given to raiders as well, only, instead of having to work for it, they will be given it as a "side-bonus" of their raiding.
People who put more time into the game get more. How is this not logical? And no, they don’t get it without extra effort. Raiders frequently spend hours upon hours in dungeons. How is that getting it for free?


The clearest recent examples:

A) All raid dungeons now drop fairly large amounts of Badges of Justice. So if you can clear Kara, here you go, 20 bonus Badges for that, even though they've not y'know, increased the difficulty or anything. If you don't want to do Kara, well, now you know how dumb you were for doing all those Heroics (which, in practice, often require more time/effort than Kara). If you clear other raids, you get more. All without an extra effort.


They do that for Kara because by now heroic dungeons have been run thousands of times by people. People have exhausted the progression they get from heroics simply because they’ve gotten most of what they can. Kara is only easier if you have an organized group. But organization also requires effort. So again, they still put in effort.

I've seen no logical justification for this, just a "who cares!", and it's clear that the only possible reason for instituting it was to reduce the amount of effort raiders had to make to get Badge gear for their off-spec sets and so on.
I’ve provided a logical explanation above. What makes you think that people who run heroics only won’t match up with another group and run the Kara now for badges to get gear for their own off-specs/main-spec.

B) T4/5 tokens can be handed in for S1/2 gear (presumably S2/3 gear after Season 4 starts, but we'll see). So those tokens that were going to waste? Now you can save yourself literally weeks of BG grinding. Look at those dumb-bum PvPers, slaving away! Hahaha! If only they knew how raiders are better people than PvPers, thus more deserving, and should be granted free epics, even though you PvPers were told you had to "earn" yours.


You realize that T4 and T5 tokens did take a lot of work. It’s not like BG gear is hard to get, it’s just a grind. Same with people going back to farm T4/T5 tokens for it now. Not hard, just a grind. They’re spending the same amount of time.

Note, that, OF COURSE, you cannot buy T4/5 gear for honor. No that would reward people who aren't raiders, and we simply couldn't have that now, could we?


You’re assuming they won’t put this in in the future. Bitter to Blizzard much?

/rolleyes. Really, really, really glad that PvE and PvP gear aren't separated in WAR, and that you can get good gear from both activities.
/rolleyes at your diatribe against WoW. I hope you posted this on WoW forums too.

Arenas are the best form of PvP!

Oh I know, let's make it so PvPers "pvp" in a totally controlled environment and have to fight members of their own faction (even though this goes against our game's basic concept) and there's no objectives beyond killing the opponents and we'll make this the most important and rewarding form of PvP! Let's also ignore all the blatantly obvious exploits, even when people tell us about them in detail months before we launch the system, then act all surprised and horrified when they materialize. Also we'll make it so it's a "rich get richer" system that's hard to get into on the ground floor! Genius!


Arena was their way of measuring the best, against the best. You can’t do that outside of a controlled environment. There are what, 2 exploits maybe? Since I last played in Dec? Are games not allowed to have bugs when released? As for the rich, get richer system? Where are you coming up with this. If I sat at 1600 even, in a mishmash 5v5, or 3v3, I could have full S1 by the end of the season, ready for S2. Same as everyone else who got it 3 weeks in. Same level playing field at the end of each season. If you couldn’t take advantage of that level playing field at the start of each season, there’s something wrong with you, not the game.

I mean whaaa? How much, exactly, do you have to hate side-based PvP and the entire concept of "Horde Vs Alliance" (HvA as the WoW manual puts it) to think that this is a good idea? With Season 4, not only will Arena continue to be the only place to get top-notch PvP gear (instead of, y'know, actual PvP/HvA), but items earned with HONOR, which can only be had in ACTUAL PvP, not Arenas, will require Arena rating requirements. The mind boggles. Not only were PvPers already at a disadvantage to Arena types in that Arena points gear was off-limits, but now their OWN gear (i.e. belt, bracers, boots) is being taken away from them!
You realize that WoW manual is over 3 years old? So sorry that you didn’t think the constant BG’s and open pvp in the game weren’t enough to fuel your fire. WoW is a little carebearish outside of arena understandably. But why shouldn’t the hardest pvp battle give the very best gear? The mind boggles. People in a mirrored environment with the sole objective of killing each other isn’t ACTUAL PVP?

Every sign points of WoW's lead PvP designer (who, predictably, exploits the Arena system mercilessly with his War/Druid 2v2 team) continuing to force all of WoW's major PvP rewards/gear to come from the Arenas, not from actual side-based PvP (which really flies in the face of the idea of WARcraft).
Jesus Christ conspiracy theory. Links, pics, or stfu please. Blizzard know 2v2 isn’t balanced, its very very gimmick based.

No sense of being part of a "realm" whatsoever.

One would expect a game based on Warcraft: Orcs vs Humans (amongst other things) to have a pretty strong sense of "realm pride" or "side pride". Yet, because of WoW's peculiar PvE and PvP design, there was none. Guilds were always better off screwing other guilds, where possible, rather than working together, PvE "progression" was for the longest time, the only way to get good gear, and ideally it was kept "in-guild", particularly with the limited number of people allowed, and the nature of WoW's slow-resetting instances. So at the endgame, most strife was between people on the same side. At least in DAoC most strife was cross-faction ("omg u cheap mids aj'd us when we were rolling those albs" said the Hib groupleader on the VNboards)
This is true. Didn’t bother me too much, I had fun competing amongst my own side. First guild to kill a raid boss. Although pre cross-realm BG’s, that fostered a sense of competition across the realm, that was enjoyable. I miss that.

Are'el says that "hardcore guilds will have keep schedules". This is clearly impossible, because the other side can destroy an "schedule" you try to keep, either by the defending the keep, taking yours, forcing you out of the zone entirely in T4, and so on. Further, even if a "hardcore, exclusionary" guild attacks a keep, you can simply tag a long, whether they like it or not. Further, as keep rewards work on a PQ basis, they can't exclude you from that, either. If your group did as good a job as any of theirs, then you're just as likely to get the loot, whether that makes them weep or cheer.

This is entirely different to WoW. If keeps were in WoW, you can bet that the raid-group who "tagged" the keep lord would get all the loot, even if they were ineffectual, and that people who interfered could probably be reported as "griefers". That's how all the outdoor bosses work in WoW.


You’re actually using a hypothetical example to put forward your idea of what might happen and how WoW would screw it up? The mind, as you said earlier, boggles.

Even scheduling "king raids" will be impossible, because you can't just decide, as one guild, to "take down a city". You need an effort from multiple guilds together, along with dozens or hundreds of random people on your side. This WILL encourage realm pride, side solidarity, and so on.

You’re actually using a hypothetical example to put forward your idea of what might happen and how WoW would screw it up? The mind, as you said earlier, boggles.

[Rivers]

PvP is not tedious, its what it represents in WoW, an easy way to gear, you get nothing else out of it... WAR with the PvE/PvP mix, it wont be the same, people will actually work togheter and get to know each other while getting personal and group rewards (realm pride)
The way I see it, the reward in PvP game-play should be an increase in individual skill and group skill. I see gear disparities as obstacles in truly competitive gaming. Reward should be recognition and fear amongst peers and enemies; for MMOGs, maybe add some cosmetic rewards. This is one of the reasons WoW isn't exactly the game for me: the enormous gear advantage is still there, just much less so than before.

There is nothing in WoW that automatically makes it more tedious than other, non-MMOG PvP games except for perhaps a smaller map count (then again, Go and Chess only have 1 possible "map"). This goes back to my first point: people burn themselves out and blame the game for being "a grind" and "a borefest."

Guilds and arena/PvP teams work together and get to know each other. If you want/expect more than that, WoW isn't the game for you. WoW is not about "the greater good;" indeed, it is instead about the individual and what the individual wants to do.

I really had some amazing times in WoW... but BC and the changes it made to PvP and PvE (90% of instances in Outland suck) pushed me away
TBC made PvP a viable end-game alternative and made instances less about giving you a giant room with trash to fight (I actually really like Shattered Halls). I can't see how any of this could push someone away. To each his own, I suppose.

You can see that they said how they want to balance game and make it even on different classes which is what WoW didn't think of before realizing game and then when they saw error in their ways they tried to fix it with tons of patches but even if they make it more balanced they never succeed 100 % in it.Mythic won't do that either but it will be closer in it then WoW.
I'm a little confused by what you mean by this. Do you mean to say that Blizzard had no intention of balancing their classes? Or that Blizzard had no intention of balancing their classes for PvP? Either way, I see the exact same thing happening with WAR: several patches made shortly after release to fix key balance issues.

[Wild]

I'm a little confused by what you mean by this. Do you mean to say that Blizzard had no intention of balancing their classes? Or that Blizzard had no intention of balancing their classes for PvP? Either way, I see the exact same thing happening with WAR: several patches made shortly after release to fix key balance issues.

If you read what i posted below your quote you can see that WAR is already working on balancing classes over and over.About Blizzard i was in beta and Blizzard then wasn't aware of how famous their game will be and how will develop and also wasn't ready for so many people complaining.The game then was more PvE oriented and thats why at start there was no honor system,no ranks,no pvp instances no pvp badges(while Mythic knows this and already has RvR system at place)and when game released soon people start playing and soon TM/SS wars begin which people liked very much and then Blizzard really started caring more about PvP seeing that as great opportunity to make game more popular,earn more money,and add extra content.First they added honor system & ranks,then they made instance PvP and then when some players started complaining about something "owning them hard(unbalanced)"they started adding many patches to balance classes out and make them even.

For WAR Mythic already knows that balance is important and they already have PvP system in place,all made not like Blizzard who didn't have it at start.Thats why i expect balance in place when game comes with some patches to fix few abilities at starting months but that won't be as bad as Blizzard who is now forced to nerf/buff classes every month!Every patch brings PvP changes so when i look at game now(having not played WoW few months)i notice different classes being complained about ,spells changed drastically,new added so that i cant even recognize.As an example when i left druid were very low represented in any bracket nobody wanted them in team in arena,and 2 months later all i see is people screaming for them to be nerfed,them being most represented 2v2 3v3,Hunters suddenly getting MS of their own etc etc.Balance in WoW shifts every month so much that its ridiculous.

And if you read what i wrote at end of my post you will see Mythic already found an original way to balance MDPS vs Tanks.Only minus about balance i see now is stealth who is in beta testing and i hope it doesn't pass to original version.

[Rivers]

-snip-
I see your point. Mythic does have an advantage in terms of preparing a certain level of balance before launch.

EDIT: By the way, I did read your entire post. I was simply confused by your wording. Sorry for any confusion.

[Ruinx]

Bakabehe - You have missed the point of the thread.

This isn't the thread for arguing about "why Bakabehe liked WoW", it's for discussing things we won't miss from WoW. If you want to start a "WoW arguing" thread, please, go ahead, but I suspect it will get locked rapidly. I'm not going to get this thread locked by getting into an argument with you in it.

All the things I've noted are things I personally dislike about WoW. If you can't handle people disliking those things, and feel the need to "call me out" on it, send me a PM. A couple of your points are valid, and I'd be happy to respond, but not in this thread. I'd appreciate it if you edited your post, by removing your quotes and questions, too (just cut & paste it into the PM).

[Dunhill]

oh well why not, i played that damn game for 3 years expecting something great for my playstyle only being appeased until I realized, the game will never be what you want it to be, not even close, world of raid craft.

While granted this is not in general gameplay forums, this is still nothing more than a ing thread, and i hope it gets volcano'd soon.

You are naive if you think that WAR will be immune to half the crap that you claim plagues only WoW.

I give you examples:

2. Night elfs, especially hunters, Over rolled much?

Shadow warriors anyone?

3. World PvP objectives being taken by one person, or even worse being completely ignored because the lack of incentive to do so.

I love how you can see into the future and see that there will be nothing not fought over in the world so long down the road after the game is well over release.

4. Scheduled raid instances, buh bye.

Scheduled city raids. buh bye?

5. Being glorified and rewarded for fighting your own faciton (arena)

rewarded yes. glorified? I seriously believe that you are just extenuating things that are really not that bad to make them seem horrible to try and further validate your case. In reality it does not do so.

7. Flying carebear mounts that allowed people to choose when they wanted to fight and be idly safe whenever, where ever.

Watch, you will get onto the forums after release "i hate it how someone can mount up and leave combat and i cant chase them waaaaaaaaaaaa!"

8. Auction houses.... ugh.

This further proved your naivety.

9. Chuck norris jokes.

Right, because we all know that chuck norris jokes exist only in WoW and nowhere else on the internet or internet games.

10. Frontflips (see number 2).

wtf? This one doesnt even make sense. Again you are just picking at every single detail so it seems like there's a lot.

11. Hopefully, stealth.

Of all your stupid points on how you are such an awesome or hardcore pvper, this tells me you sucked at it.

12. Enchanting please, nothing worse then geting a new piece of loot and having to get it rechanted..... or paying out the for the mats or use of mats from another person.

*cough*crafting and tradeskills are in WAR too *cough*

13. Serious pvp only being taken place in instances.

Lemme see here... scenarios are instanced. And the city raids become instanced.

15. Elitists pricks on their alts complaining about "Barrens chat" because they already did quests multiple times and know the answer, before someone else, but not actually helping them, instead hearing that person asking for help consecutive times, and then comlaining about "newbs".

Wow. you are living in your own little bubble world arent you? I can guarantee you elitist jerks will exist in WAR. And people will still be called newbs.

16. Ridiculously long flight paths and other downtimes, heres your 20 minute downtime from winterspring to sithilus, go make a sandwhich, , take a shower, and you'll still have another 5-10 minutes of waiting.

There were faster ways of getting from winterspring to silithus, but either A) you were too narrow minded to figure it out, or B) you didnt want to and like to about it anyway.

18. (hopefully) No more old content being compltely destroyed, minimialized by one expansion.

This is rich. You start a thread on things you believe you will get rid of if you go to the grassier green and are still not sure whether it will actually be that way.

Long post short: Just shut up. You have no idea what you are talking about. I played the game too, and i know of WoW's various flaws. I too am excited about WAR, but im not creating a thread with the sole purpose of trolling the forums. Please spare us.

[Chosen of the Raven]

Warcraft did PvE extremely well. The PvP systems were never that great, and still aren't, as they're plagued with a multitude of balancing and exploitation problems. But the PvE content, despite being "easy mode" according to some people, was fun for most of the end game, especially in TBC with the more complex and scripted encounters. So kudos to Blizzard for doing a good job making PvE accessible to everyone, and kudos to Mythic for (hopefully) doing the same for PvP.

[Browncoat-WHA]

This is why you people can't have anything nice (at least when it comes to WoW threads).

So much for giving this thread a chance. It became exactly what I said it might be - a flamefest.

Here's a tip - if you don't like what the OP says, and you think it's a troll, please, please use report post. Don't make the mistake of flaming them or responding if you won't do it respectfully.

The Volcano yearns for threads like these.

*VOLCANOED with a fire-brewed beer*