I Think Stealth Was Being Considered for WE for a Long Time. . .

[Kestrel_Trebor]

Check out the first Barnett video, where the WE is announced. He specifically says they "sneak up" on people. That leads me to think they were thinking of adding it to the class for a while. . .

[Rowhin]

Link pls? I can't recall what vid you are talking about. Witch Elf was announced at GC 2007 in Leipzig, Germany. Back then, all we got to know about her ingame was:

Witch Elf
Archtype: Melee DPS
- Self buff elixirs
- Debuff poisons

Core Mechanic: Frenzy
- Positional attacks
- Builds Frenzy points
- Frenzy points gate finishers

[Xurré]

I think people are pretty much ignoring everything Paul says these days (with the possible exception of comic value) since his information is time and again proving to be unreliable in the extreme.

As for that, I think everyone originally thought they were trying to sell Witch Elves as 'rogues' to people looking for a rogue while never really believing that they'd ever really do something so incredibly ill-suiting. Heck, there was absolutely zero talk of Witch Elves stealthing until it started leaking from beta because it was just such an incredibly absurd idea that it was beyond all consideration.


- Xurré

[Kestrel_Trebor]

http://war.curse.com/videos/details/676/

It's at 1:14, but start watching at like 1:10 so you don't miss it. Or just start at the beginning, it's only like a 2 min video.

[Hoodwink]

I would bet that the feedback from beta testers was that the witch elf was too dull to play and maybe had a problem killing ranged attackers.

Maybe I'm wrong though. I don't see how stealth really solves either of those problems.

Personally I was really hyped when I saw the first videos of witch elves and read their lore. But after reading their actual abilities... they were pretty much just a carbon copy of every rogue type class except they didn't stealth.

[Kharlene]

::sigh:: And another repeated issue that could be posted within one of the numerous threads that already go over WEs and Stealth...

Look... no one takes Paul Barnett seriously when he's giving one of rantings of hilarity during the podcasts, because at the time he doesn't even know what he's talking about. For the longest time Mythic had been boasting about how there is no stealth in WAR, then a couple months after the WE and WH enter beta testing, not right when they enter beta - or before, during the concept stage, but a couple months after they enter beta suddenly they begin testing stealth with the WE and WH. Then look back at all of the odd and even nonsensical changes they have made during course of this game (even the ones that fit and make sense), then it becomes quite clear that their decision making on pretty much everything, including stealth, has been utterly haphazard. Hell, even when they threw in Keeps and Sieges it was a sudden development due to outcry within beta-testing, and not something they originally had planned for the game. The way this whole stealth debacle has come about has been so ill-conceived and planned, I highly doubt it was some kind of conspiracy they planned from the beginning. :rolleyes:

[Dolash]

I think people are pretty much ignoring everything Paul says these days (with the possible exception of comic value) since his information is time and again proving to be unreliable in the extreme.

As for that, I think everyone originally thought they were trying to sell Witch Elves as 'rogues' to people looking for a rogue while never really believing that they'd ever really do something so incredibly ill-suiting. Heck, there was absolutely zero talk of Witch Elves stealthing until it started leaking from beta because it was just such an incredibly absurd idea that it was beyond all consideration.


- Xurré

Speak for yourself, extremist. Just because you ignore Paul because things change over the course of a year or two of development doesn't mean the community at large does.

[Feigro]

I think he's fantastic, but I don't think it's an extremist point of view to consider what he says not really worth it's weight in factual info. He's there for hype. Somehow a camera got pointed at him one day, and fans ate it up. So they started having him talk about everything.

It's why 90% of the time whenever they do a presentation, there's pretty much two presentations going on. Paul being paul, and then Jeff explaining what he means. Or Jeff explaining things, and then Paul spit-polishing it off with some hyperbole.

Having said that, I personally think Stealth was inevitable due to my percieved understanding of how the class was going to function after seeing a video that came out of the event where the With Elf was announced. They pretty much summed up a rogue/stealther class, with combo points, and openers (being the biggest flag, for stealth, imo) and the "dipping in and out of combat" style of gameplay.

It's of zero surprise to me personally that stealth found it's way into the game, and specifically, to Witch Elves.

[Dukha]

Paul is great, love his presentations. But if I want actual facts then listening to mr Barnett is my second choice ;)
Then again, "actual facts" about a game that still is in beta is a relative term....

[Kestrel_Trebor]

::sigh:: And another repeated issue that could be posted within one of the numerous threads that already go over WEs and Stealth...

Look... no one takes Paul Barnett seriously when he's giving one of rantings of hilarity during the podcasts, because at the time he doesn't even know what he's talking about. For the longest time Mythic had been boasting about how there is no stealth in WAR, then a couple months after the WE and WH enter beta testing, not right when they enter beta - or before, during the concept stage, but a couple months after they enter beta suddenly they begin testing stealth with the WE and WH. Then look back at all of the odd and even nonsensical changes they have made during course of this game (even the ones that fit and make sense), then it becomes quite clear that their decision making on pretty much everything, including stealth, has been utterly haphazard. Hell, even when they threw in Keeps and Sieges it was a sudden development due to outcry within beta-testing, and not something they originally had planned for the game. The way this whole stealth debacle has come about has been so ill-conceived and planned, I highly doubt it was some kind of conspiracy they planned from the beginning. :rolleyes:

In response, a couple of things:

1) I don't think it's productive or constructive to have every thought that fits with a very broad topic in a single thread. When threads get to 10+ pages, things are basically getting lost and are hard to follow. This particular comment hadn't been in any of the threads that I saw, and although it's on the topic of stealth, it doesn't fit within any of the open threads -- it's a distinct thought.

2) Just because changes are made during game development doesn't mean they're haphazard -- even when those changes are a big departure from how the game was up to the time the change was made. I think the development cycle and changes being made to the game, that we (non-beta) testers have heard about, are for the better and are well thought-out, even if some of them take the game in different directions. You might ask why there was not more of an emphasis on open field RvR and siege initially -- since I think many people loved those aspects of DAOC so much, it's somewhat of an oversight to not have had them there to being with. But they're not haphazard changes, I think.


Also, in response generally to how I think some people are construing the post:

I was not trying to say that Paul is or is not to be believed. I'm also not trying to say there was a "conspiracy." I just thought it was curious that the class was called "stealthy" from the get-go. That personally makes me think that the discussions about stealth were ongoing when the class was announced, even though stealth was not being tested when the class first made its way into beta. I know there are other explanations for his choice of words, but now that stealth is being tested, with the benefit of hindsight, I'm betting stealth was in discussion from the beginning.

[abr4]

I think people are pretty much ignoring everything Paul says these days (with the possible exception of comic value) since his information is time and again proving to be unreliable in the extreme.

This is exactly how one should approach anything said by Paul Barnett.
Said day for him in the gaming business, although a glorious one for him in the comedic business.

Maybe consider a career change Paul? =)

[Zunjin]

Still think he was only talking about assassins which are still quite a big part of the de lore even if they didnt make it into this game as a actual playable class.

Edit: Ops, that was from another video :p

[Tirath]

They use Potions they use Lotions :D made me giggle some

[Kharlene]

In response, a couple of things:

1) I don't think it's productive or constructive to have every thought that fits with a very broad topic in a single thread. When threads get to 10+ pages, things are basically getting lost and are hard to follow. This particular comment hadn't been in any of the threads that I saw, and although it's on the topic of stealth, it doesn't fit within any of the open threads -- it's a distinct thought.

2) Just because changes are made during game development doesn't mean they're haphazard -- even when those changes are a big departure from how the game was up to the time the change was made. I think the development cycle and changes being made to the game, that we (non-beta) testers have heard about, are for the better and are well thought-out, even if some of them take the game in different directions. You might ask why there was not more of an emphasis on open field RvR and siege initially -- since I think many people loved those aspects of DAOC so much, it's somewhat of an oversight to not have had them there to being with. But they're not haphazard changes, I think.


Also, in response generally to how I think some people are construing the post:

I was not trying to say that Paul is or is not to be believed. I'm also not trying to say there was a "conspiracy." I just thought it was curious that the class was called "stealthy" from the get-go. That personally makes me think that the discussions about stealth were ongoing when the class was announced, even though stealth was not being tested when the class first made its way into beta. I know there are other explanations for his choice of words, but now that stealth is being tested, with the benefit of hindsight, I'm betting stealth was in discussion from the beginning.

Actually, this topic - this exact subject in fact is brought every single time within every thread dealing with WE/WH stealth, you in fact participated one such thread in this very forum, and like all the others before and after it touched upon the very things you are speaking of now: http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34135&page=7 Starting with the bit with Zoatibix toward the bottom of that page. It wasn't the only time this subject has been brought up, and I'm too lazy right now to look up others where it rehashed the same thing over and over again. But, like I tell others, whom... usually never take me up on the offer... I will pull them up and start linking them if you really need the proof, I don't have any problems doing so. It's a tired subject, right now there's another starting on the main page of the DE forums. :rolleyes: And it too, will likely degenerate in the same tired arguments time and time again never leading anywhere. As for Paul, he doesn't often think when he speaks, wildly entertaining, but not the most informative, also part of the stereotype for Dark Elves in every IP, not just Warhammer's is that they are "crafty", "evil", and "stealthy" and can be spun in any assortment of ways for every DE class regardless of IP. Ugh... I think I'm personally just burnt out on this subject in general... it's been rehashed so many damn times in pretty much each forum... literally, too...

[bigbakaboon]

I'm actually pretty sure stealth wasn't considered in the early life of Warhammer.

A bird in the bush told me that mythic was originally was wanting to use Assassins for their MDPS career, but since they didn't want to use stealth, opted to go with the other iconic MDPS career, the witch elf.

But like everyone said stealth was something that came up during beta testing. Some say it was because WE and WH had trouble closing the gap between themselves and multiple RDPS, so stealth was implicated.

WE warbands in the Table top had a move silently skill, but i don't think it operated as stealth, i could be wrong though.

I believe though that stealth in game isn't permanent and drains AP as you use it.

[Zoatibix]

I agree with Kharlene: we've discussed this to death.

Stealthing WEs will/won't make it to retail based purely on the feedback they get from Beta.

Lore based arguments will be ignored by Mythic.

[abr4]

Lore based arguments will be ignored by Mythic.

And this is likely the sad truth.

[Soulein]

Do you guys even know how long their "stealth ability lasts"?

[abr4]

Doesn't matter.

[Thrakkesh]

Do you guys even know how long their "stealth ability lasts"?

Presumeably long enough to be worth using. Which means it will continue being a dumb mechanic shoe-horned onto a class with a back-story that makes it seem ridiclious, and indeed was chosen precisely because they didn't want a stealth based assassin class which is what it is now.

[Zoatibix]

Do you guys even know how long their "stealth ability lasts"?

Yes. And I'd love to be able to comment further on the matter but the NDA prevents me from doing so.

[Bloggerx]

2.) Why not a tabletop port? by randalx (659791)
When I first heard of Warhammer Online I had a slight hope that the designers were going to create an online version of the table top game, something akin to what Wizards of the Coast did with Magic The Gathering Online. That doesn't seem to be the case. Just the same, judging by the people I've talked to, this game would be of great interest to current and former battlegamers. I'd like to know, besides the Warhammer universe, why should this game appeal to a Warhammer battlegamer?

Steve Marvin, Senior Design: Why didn't we do a straight port? Well, as Paul (Paul Barnett, our Design Manager) likes to say, it's kind of like Batman. Batman comes in a multitude of flavors, from big screen to books, cartoons to games, action figures to a million other successful (and unsuccessful) incarnations. Each modifies the base concept to suit the market in which it will be operating, so as to appeal to the current fans, but just as important, to create new fans in a medium in which there were few or none previously. With luck, the new aspect will be a big success, and those new fans will go looking for the other flavors. We really like the folks at Games Workshop (they've been fantastic to work with), and we love the Warhammer universe, and so we hope our game can help expand interest in both.

But we work in the MMO medium. More specifically, MMORPG's. That means that a dominant characteristic of the tabletop experience has already been set aside: the impersonal aspect. Tabletop Warhammer is about the control of lots of individuals at a time by a single person. MMORPG's are about lots of individuals controlling one character at a time.

A better comparison would probably be to compare us to the Warhammer Fantasy Role Playing Game. There you do carry an individual through the Warhammer universe, acquiring power, wealth and experience. The unit types found on the tabletop are recreated in WFRP careers where possible, and new but IP-consistent careers are created to fill out the expectations of a robust FRP game. Of course, WFRP doesn't let you play the "bad guys", and we do.

But even that comparison breaks down, since we aren't a paper and dice game any more than we are a miniatures game. The fact is that we have taken everything that we liked best about the IP, combined it with what we like best about MMO's, and created something we think plays to the strengths of the IP, the genre, and our own strengths as a developer, especially player versus player (PvP) combat and its larger counterpart, Realm versus Realm (RvR). At its heart, RvR online play is the obvious and perfect way to recreate Warhammer as an MMORPG. War on a grand scale, carried out on the personal level.

And coming full circle, that's what the Warhammer tabletop player will enjoy about WAR. We have been working with the folks at GW not so much to make an MMO based on Warhammer, as to translate the core concepts of Warhammer into an MMO. Not as the trappings of it, but the essence of it. Certainly we have Ironbreakers and Squigs and Warrior Priests and Bright Wizards and runes and banners and choppas and Dwarfs and Orcs and Dark Elves and the Empire and Karaz-a-Karak and thousands of other things lifted directly from the source material. But that's the easy bit. We want fans of Warhammer to recognize the kinds of choices we've made as Warhammer choices. Epic, heroic conflict. The same principles of number and mood. The sense of endless struggle against (or for!) the encroaching darkness. Perhaps most of all, the humor and the sense of fun. When you get into WAR, you will recognize it as Warhammer. We're working very hard to get that right, and we hope you'll enjoy it as much as we do.

I like the fact how it is stated the WAR has to apply to new fans like my self. I plan on playing the game because it looks fun do care about the WE backstory nope, do i know anything about the WE other than the info given to me by Mystic Nope. Do I care that theres stealth again nope. As long as the stealth is implmented well and the mechanics work. WAR looks fun as hell and did from day one.

[Thrakkesh]

I like the fact how it is stated the WAR has to apply to new fans like my self. I plan on playing the game because it looks fun do care about the WE backstory nope, do i know anything about the WE other than the info given to me by Mystic Nope. Do I care that theres stealth again nope. As long as the stealth is implmented well and the mechanics work. WAR looks fun as hell and did from day one.


Wow, that's nice.

Did they have to 'appeal to new gamers' without annoying the majority who have a great affection for the Warhammer Franchise? no.

Is there any reason at all to do this when there are perfectly viable alternatives that they've dismissed because they didn't want a stealther? No.

Is this being shoe-horned onto the Witch Elf for any other reason other than they changed their minds this late in the game and are too lazy to trot out the idea they had back before they modeled it? No.

I like you how you copy and paste something said months ago and set up a straw man argument though. Like lore is the only thing people are annoyed with. Like people aren't annoyed becasue we were told "No stealth in WAR it's too hard to balance" only to find out that the people who TOLD us it causes balancing problems are putting it in the game. Like there's not a bunch of people who are sick of it from previous MMOs, which, by the way, it has never, EVER managed to achieve complete balance. No, we're all just mad because it's against past story-driven lore.

But I'll bite. I say this. The foundation of a good RPG is a good story, damn it. It's a cohesive world, with threads and sub-threads, with something to define it. It's part of the formula, and you screw with the formula and you take away what makes it unique and you water it down and you make it less than it was. And it doesn't have to be that way, and anyone who insists that its the only way is lazy. Period. For god's sakes, there's a legacy of Dark Elves called Assassins who are revered for being stealthy silent killers.

This is not sacrificing lore on the altar of good gameplay, this is sacraficing good gameplay on the altar of the release date.

[Anthro]

Although i am new with the Warhammer universe and so its lore, I do think that stealth in a mmo is in fact an asset to the overall experience. I used to play a rogue in WoW, and although i hated the rogues stun mechanics, i was in fact adored by the way the stealth mechanics worked.
The "not knowing" what might happen when you explore the worlds of Warhammer online makes pvp allot more interesting imo.

[Bloggerx]

oh im not stewing anything up i think its funny that people care that theirs stealth in the game and not worrying how balanced its going to play just because in WoW rogues were over powered does not being its going to be over powered in WAR and thats what annoys me, people thinking this game is like WoW, does anybody remeber anyother stealth class being good or overly powerful in any other mmo. I can wait for some moron to pick a WE or WH and play for a month and relize there not played the way they though. this game is not WoW and not played like it so whats the point in getting ur painties in bunch if they added stealth who cares. Grow up and get over it

[Thrakkesh]

oh im not stewing anything up i think its funny that people care that theirs stealth in the game and not worrying how balanced its going to play just because in WoW rogues were over powered does not being its going to be over powered in WAR and thats what annoys me, people thinking this game is like WoW, does anybody remeber anyother stealth class being good or overly powerful in any other mmo. I can wait for some moron to pick a WE or WH and play for a month and relize there not played the way they though. this game is not WoW and not played like it so whats the point in getting ur painties in bunch if they added stealth who cares. Grow up and get over it

Yes, because WoW is the only MMO that's tried to do stealth.

Oh, hi, DAoC Assassin that can deal massive amounts of damage from stealth and doesn't break stealth as long as it one-shots its target! (And I don't feel like dragging it up, but the 'stealth' mechanic has been in a LOT OF MMO's, and it's always been extremely, EXTREMELY hard to balance.'

As for that last bit, we are in a discussion forum. That means we get to discuss things. At the end of the day this doesn't weigh on me one bit but if you ask my opinion I'd say "It sucks and it's dumb." At the end of the day I got better things to worry about but that's not really what we talk about here now is it? So maybe you're the one with your panties in a bunch, because you're annoyed with people who think it's a dumb idea and shouldn't be in the game to begin with and they should just let Mythic do it anyway even though there's no real indicitation that it's going to end up any better this time than it did with any other MMO that put stealth in, and was such a balancing problem that Mythic itself originally didn't even WANT IT IN.

[Anthro]

Yes, because WoW is the only MMO that's tried to do stealth.

Oh, hi, DAoC Assassin that can deal massive amounts of damage from stealth and doesn't break stealth as long as it one-shots its target! (And I don't feel like dragging it up, but the 'stealth' mechanic has been in a LOT OF MMO's, and it's always been extremely, EXTREMELY hard to balance.'


Its funny that you guys say that WoW's rogue was overpowered. Maybe the first weeks during the leveling process, but at end game content WoW's rogue has never been overpowered. The fact that this game mainly focusses on pvp makes balancing stealth a whole lot easier. Remember that blizzard had to balance rogues mainly for pve but also for pvp. Add the fact that the main pvp mechanics for rogues are stuns, while pve content is mostly stun immune.
So balancing stealth in pvp shouldn't be harder then any other character mechanic.

[Thrakkesh]

Its funny that you guys say that WoW's rogue was overpowered. Maybe the first weeks during the leveling process, but at end game content WoW's rogue has never been overpowered. The fact that this game mainly focusses on pvp makes balancing stealth a whole lot easier. Remember that blizzard had to balance rogues mainly for pve but also for pvp. Add the fact that the main pvp mechanics for rogues are stuns, while pve content is mostly stun immune.
So balancing stealth in pvp shouldn't be harder then any other character mechanic.

Rogue issues have been see-saw in WoW mechanics at a very early age, from the days of "World of Roguecraft" to painful struggles to the present day. At times they have been immensely powerful--being able to solo an epic-geared class with no gear at all is essentially overpowered, no matter how you slice it. At times they have been complete jokes--the time leading up to TBC, and indeedis an example of this, as they were starting to slip in PVE and crippling bugs regarding stealth with the boosted defense of caster classes left them twisting in the wind, to the current Shadowstep changes which have again made Rogues the complete bane of all casters.

Note that Rogue 'balance' has very little to do with PVE, and yet Rogues have continued to struggle to find a niche there, always battling the comparitive lack of utility--the by and large reason for that is any deficicency in their PVE is because it will break their offense in PVP, which is largely shaped around the ability to pick and choose targets.

And as I've said, Rogues are not the only one.

If nothing else, Rogues are a shining example of what stealth does to a class in terms of balance.

[Bloggerx]

Okay well in FFXI i think theifs "youre rouge class" was done very well, the only thing it was good at was getting money other than that it was not overpowered if any thing it was underpowered.

[Thrakkesh]

Okay well in FFXI i think theifs "youre rouge class" was done very well, the only thing it was good at was getting money other than that it was not overpowered if any thing it was underpowered.

Considering I think FFXI was a horrible game, I'm afraid it doesn't hold any water with me.

[Kestrel_Trebor]

Oh, hi, DAoC Assassin that can deal massive amounts of damage from stealth and doesn't break stealth as long as it one-shots its target!

Just wanted to point out that this was changed a LOOOOONG time ago in DAOC. Pre-SI I think. When you attack you unstealth.

Stealth in DAOC was much more balanced than in WoW, IMO, because you couldn't re-stealth when you were too close to an enemy, there were more ways to unstealth opponents and to detect stealth, there was no "stun lock," etc.

[Kestrel_Trebor]

Actually, this topic - this exact subject in fact is brought every single time within every thread dealing with WE/WH stealth, you in fact participated one such thread in this very forum, and like all the others before and after it touched upon the very things you are speaking of now: http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34135&page=7 Starting with the bit with Zoatibix toward the bottom of that page. It wasn't the only time this subject has been brought up, and I'm too lazy right now to look up others where it rehashed the same thing over and over again. But, like I tell others, whom... usually never take me up on the offer... I will pull them up and start linking them if you really need the proof, I don't have any problems doing so. It's a tired subject, right now there's another starting on the main page of the DE forums. :rolleyes: And it too, will likely degenerate in the same tired arguments time and time again never leading anywhere. As for Paul, he doesn't often think when he speaks, wildly entertaining, but not the most informative, also part of the stereotype for Dark Elves in every IP, not just Warhammer's is that they are "crafty", "evil", and "stealthy" and can be spun in any assortment of ways for every DE class regardless of IP. Ugh... I think I'm personally just burnt out on this subject in general... it's been rehashed so many damn times in pretty much each forum... literally, too...

Didn't see it in that thread or elsewhere, which in itself probably demonstrates the problem with threads that stretch on for too many pages. Many people don't have the time to re-read pages and pages of a post when they arrive to a topic, they read the beginning page or so then post their reply and thoughts on a subject. So just because something might have been covered in the midst of a multiple page thread doesn't mean that others shouldn't be able to post their thoughts, even if there's overlap.

Some good points above, by the way, as alternative explanations for Paul's choice of words.

Bottom line is I can't wait for the game, open beta, etc. Woohoo!!!!!