The Mini Map

[gtgoskate]

This is sort of a RvR and UI statement

But in SWG when you are doing open world pvp you saw the enemy as a red dot on the mini map were ever you went. making it impossible to use any kind of cover or go anywere to hide unless you had a special to remove you from the map like Commandos and Spy do.

I would hate to see all the nice pretty rocks i could ambush people from in RvR be put to waist in the game because the enemy could see me as a red dot on the radar. But whats you imput do you agree or Disagree

[pewpewarrows]

This is sort of a RvR and UI statement

But in SWG when you are doing open world pvp you saw the enemy as a red dot on the mini map were ever you went. making it impossible to use any kind of cover or go anywere to hide unless you had a special to remove you from the map like Commandos and Spy do.

I would hate to see all the nice pretty rocks i could ambush people from in RvR be put to waist in the game because the enemy could see me as a red dot on the radar. But whats you imput do you agree or Disagree

Oh lord please tell me no one at Mythic is even considering this. This would absolutely be a make-or-break decision for me deciding to invest my time to do hardcore RvR or not. Unless it is extremely lore specific or situational (read: Hunter tracking in WoW), we shouldn't stand for it.

Luckily for us though, I can't find a single screenshot or video where anything other than your teammates are visible on the minimap...

[gtgoskate]

Pray to god it stays that way

[Gunter]

Oh lord please tell me no one at Mythic is even considering this. This would absolutely be a make-or-break decision for me deciding to invest my time to do hardcore RvR or not. Unless it is extremely lore specific or situational (read: Hunter tracking in WoW), we shouldn't stand for it.

Luckily for us though, I can't find a single screenshot or video where anything other than your teammates are visible on the minimap...

As far as i can tell no enemy on minimap. But you still have red tag over your head. Can still sneak arround terrain though.

[Dread_Knight]

Now, i'm hoping I have like misheard or misinterpreted this, but i'm pretty sure they didn't want 'ambushes' in the game, they wanted it to be solid RvR, something to do with the project manager's (his name escapes me) wishes. Which is pretty lame if you ask me, would hurt World PvP

Let's hope this doesnt make the cut :)

Make me happy. Tell me i'm wrong!!

[orzu]

I can't even see that being an issue, what with the idea of large scale battles... Are 20+ people going to be hiding behind the rock?

[Loekii]

I dislike 'game' mechanics that used to create 'fake' ambushes.

If I can see you running from bush to bush, then the game certainly should not let you 'ambush' me.

Nor, should you be able to sneak up on me, in a suit of armor, running across an open field.

I hope they tie a lot of thing to LOS. If LOS is not broken, then you are a visible as if you had a red shiney bill board over your head -- which you do.

If you break LOS, you should become 'invisible' (no targeting, no name display, etc).

[Loekii]

I can't even see that being an issue, what with the idea of large scale battles... Are 20+ people going to be hiding behind the rock?

Maybe.

Or those 20 players could be hidden from LOS by cliff faces, walls, tunnels, etc.

If you run into a ravine, the enemy players outside your LOS, hiding above, should not be 'displayed'.

[gtgoskate]

I can't even see that being an issue, what with the idea of large scale battles... Are 20+ people going to be hiding behind the rock?

No,But if those 20 people are to be killed and your the last one on the run you cant hide if your a red dot on the mini map

[Nerissa]

If you run into a ravine, the enemy players outside your LOS, hiding above, should not be 'displayed'.


The characters (billboard included), will be rendered. Hell, look up how an aimbot in FPS games works, it's the same damn principle. If something is within your draw distance, it gets rendered wether or not you can 'see' it.

The best they can do is make it so that you can't /target someone who is out of Line of Sight.

(The reason things get rendered even if they are out of player Line of Sight is to prevent loading lag when the out of sight thing moves into line of sight. Essentially, it is to create more fluid gameplay by making the object exist even if you're not looking at it.)

[Loekii]

No the best thing is to turn off the Names and targeting, when LOS is broken or blocked.

Just as the block the toon graphic, they can block the Red Name graphic.

It will look pretty stupid and poor to see player names running around behind the wall of the Keep.

[Nerissa]

It will look pretty stupid and poor to see player names running around behind the wall of the Keep.

You couldn't see player names through terrain in WoW, so I doubt that would be a problem. Just saying that they are already rendered despite being out of LoS.

EDIT: This included terrain features that did not break LoS due to the way LoS was coded in WoW, like mild hills.

[orzu]

Just as the block the toon graphic, they can block the Red Name graphic.

It will look pretty stupid and poor to see player names running around behind the wall of the Keep.

This is just how it worked in WoW >_> I doubt it will be different.

[EToaster]

I dislike 'game' mechanics that used to create 'fake' ambushes.

If I can see you running from bush to bush, then the game certainly should not let you 'ambush' me.

Nor, should you be able to sneak up on me, in a suit of armor, running across an open field.

I hope they tie a lot of thing to LOS. If LOS is not broken, then you are a visible as if you had a red shiney bill board over your head -- which you do.

If you break LOS, you should become 'invisible' (no targeting, no name display, etc).


Well, if you can actually see them in the bush, then it wouldn't be much of an ambush, but if you just mean they're in your line of sight, but you're not facing them, then that's different. As for sneaking up on you in a suit of armor... well, battlefields are noisy places. =)

[oakae]

Agreed. It's the same reason I don't want opposing players to have blaring red names above them. You should be able to take advantage of the environment like hiding in a bush or behind a tree

[wtnind]

The characters (billboard included), will be rendered.

No they won't, look up "hidden surface removal". The game engine knows where they are thats not the same as them being rendered.

Hell, look up how an aimbot in FPS games works, it's the same damn principle. If something is within your draw distance, it gets rendered wether or not you can 'see' it.

Aimbots are illegal and will get your account banned, all you can do in a fps is kick people from your server but in an mmo any kind of hacks will get you booted (expect to see crap like punkbuster policing your pc). Even an aimbot doesn't let you see through walls, it just calculates based on the gamestate what changes to the cursor you have to make to point at people.

Graphics Rendering is completely divorced from the gamestate and game logic. Textures are only rendered if the camera can see them.

If you the user can't see somone on your screen it means they weren't rendered on it.

[Wolfenight]

From podcasts and lots of youtube footage I've come to the conclusion:

I don't think there will be ambushes in the game in the sense of stealth or invisibility.

I do think you'll be able to ambush people who aren't paying attention enough to watch their back while you walk up behind them.

Which means I don't think there will be a radar but I do think you'll be able to hide behind solid objects.

[wtnind]

apparently they are testing out stealth, in an AP draining fashion (no perma stealth like in Waiting on Warhammer)

[zorgix]

oops boted that i am for seeing people on map , but i didnt mean to, i think it would ruin RvR :/ abit

[Gunter]

apparently they are testing out stealth, in an AP draining fashion (no perma stealth like in Waiting on Warhammer)

It costs ap and it it has a max timer. You also cannot attack from stealth. Coming out of stealth activates the universal cooldown. I believe its at 1.5 seconds.

[Loekii]

It costs ap and it it has a max timer. You also cannot attack from stealth. Coming out of stealth activates the universal cooldown. I believe its at 1.5 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-_WU46h-wg

Here is an example at 1:30ish.

It looks like the player attempts one or two actions that 'cannot be performed while stealthed', and then 'Attaches' with the top middle/middle-right action, which takes him out of stealth.

[Edrahil Celeborn]

As far as i can tell no enemy on minimap. But you still have red tag over your head. Can still sneak arround terrain though.

they have to remove this ... :S

[Ransem]

They don't have to remove the red names, if you want to be sneaky and hide behind things hide behind large rocks. Plus, if you play a game that has an almost omniscient angle to the camera, (third person, seeing whats behind and infront of you) it's hard not to spot that little stuntie hiding behind the rock as you approach it (depending on the camera angle). I'm not saying it's a dumb idea, but it never seems to work in other MMO's.

[Seeria]

Please... please tell me you CANNOT see enemies on the map/mini-map !!!! Has anything official been said about this? Where?

[Garthilk]

The be all, end all issue. Is if you pass the location information onto the client. Even for a small area like the minimap, you essentially have to pass the entire zones information, allowing hackers to create zone wide minimaps, that show player movement. This isn't going to happen for good reason.

[december]

ninja fw gy, always pro

if there werent ninja'ing then you wouldnt need to protect your flank, meaning, the entire fight would be just 2 straight lines vs each other (remember what happened at Stirling in Braveheart and how flanking was pro then?)

[PhailQuail]

The be all, end all issue. Is if you pass the location information onto the client. Even for a small area like the minimap, you essentially have to pass the entire zones information, allowing hackers to create zone wide minimaps, that show player movement. This isn't going to happen for good reason.

No, the server can choose and modify the information sent to the client, a common practise is to only send info about the players immediate surroundings, aswell as less-frequently updating things like off-minimap allies.

[Sturmer]

We should be able to hide behind trees and rocks.

Even targeting should not be possible to targets that are NOT in LOS.
Not to mention ranged attacks.

[Nirotu]

I just realized this, but back in DAoC, we didn't have maps or radars or minimaps. We had to memorize using our compass and trusty cardboard map that came with each game (unless you got DAoC Atlas. I was too cheap then.). Ahh i miss those days.

Anyway, that being said, I hope it's similar to DAoC with no radar. I mean, I understand having maps and mini maps, it can get frustrating finding out how to get somewhere, but ambushes are a big part of war in general and sometimes even turns the tide of the battle.

[Koax]

Paul said in a video on youtube (go find it, I CBF) that there wont be ambushing of from being tree and rocks and crap.