Mods should be restrained to cosmetics no gameplay interference.

[Pogo]

The thing with mods is, they always go too far. Lets take a couple wow examples, they have an open UI script or whatever allows them to be written so freely without restriction.

Dispeling, they had mods where you pressed one button and dispeled any debuff possible, you dont have to target, you dont even have to be aware that there is a debuff, because it tells you, in a scrolling combat text form. It went even as far where you can prioritze what you dispel, which is because its supposed to be random. granted this priotiziation didnt last long before Blizzards team broke it, but the idea that it was allowed to slip through at all baffles me.

CTRAID: It would tell you exactly when and what to do, or atleast give you a giant notice hey this guys gonna blow up, run to the center. Yea some of it was communication efficiency but still imho it should be up to each individual player not the computer telling them what to do.

Cooldown timers: It automatically reminded you when your CD was up which could make the difference in a fight, while there was a good chance without the mod they were not going to use it nearly as quickly.

Equip macros, this allowed warriors to throw on particular pieces of armor/weapons (the ones that could be switched) so they could use abilitys that require them at instant speed, oh look hes casting, the last .3 seconds boom one button spell reflect, ha no time for you to cancel the spell...

Macros were convient which most i dont mind, you know a chain sequence (use these abiiltys in order rinse and repeat) or using a 1 button to encompass two spells of same speed etc etc arent that bad, especially almost neccesary in that game for all the crappy situational skills you got. (look at the priest and shaman classes).

They really need to restrict how much you can do with macros, and mods should be restrained to ui cosmectic effects,

You want a nicer looking bar or put in a different area, sure go for it. Mods that record our damage output of various abilitys like recount sure, thats harmless, but mods and macros that trivialize your classes difficulty or lower your need for awarness need to be broken. Stop dumming down the challenge of the game with needless scripting.



The thinga bout mods is, they allow players to take things for granted not to be aware of there surrondings. They use macros and mods to "lower their time responses" which in all aspects improves their performance, sorry no mods in this game, imho let WAR put out which mods they feel is right for their game. Mods help trivialize pve content, and give unfair small advantages that add up in A RvR/PvP enviroment.

/rant off.

[Feigro]

Dispeling, they had mods where you pressed one button and dispeled any debuff possible, you dont have to target, you dont even have to be aware that there is a debuff, because it tells you, in a scrolling combat text form. It went even as far where you can prioritze what you dispel, which is because its supposed to be random. granted this priotiziation didnt last long before Blizzards team broke it, but the idea that it was allowed to slip through at all baffles me.

Everything you just described, short of the priority, can be done without a mod anyway.

But I do see where you're coming from. It makes it possible to give people an advantage in game due to a skill set that is entirely independant of the game itself. That'd be like... since I'm good at wood-carving... I'm able to craft my desk in such a way that gives me an advantage in WAR. (in this case, wood-carving substitutes for being good at modding).

Arguably, that's not really fair.

[Pogo]

I edited and added more content so please dont devalue his post i just posted too early before noticing the 1 example. thanks.

[Emoire]

Dispeling, they had mods where you pressed one button and dispeled any debuff possible...
This funtionality was removed from WoW before TBC was released. "Decursive" mods simply became lists of people you needed to decurse or highlighted the frame of the player that was cursed.

CTRAID: It would tell you exactly when and what to do, or atleast give you a giant notice hey this guys gonna blow up, run to the center. Yea some of it was communication efficiency but still imho it should be up to each individual player not the computer telling them what to do.
Consider CTRAID is crap now and the major addons are BigWigs or DBM, I'll assume you haven't been playing for a while. If that's the case, you should also be aware that Blizzard is considering implementing their own "boss mod" like this. Nothing is official yet, but it is something being discussed. When organizing 25+ people on a boss fight, this type of mod is a god-send considering MOST players can't pay attention enough to actually do anything other than a tank-and-spank fight in WoW.

Cooldown timers: It automatically reminded you when your CD was up which could make the difference in a fight...
Your icon also flashes, letting you know the cooldown is up. You also see a graphic on it, showing you about how long you have left on it. It's really no different.

Equip macros, this allowed warriors to throw on particular pieces of armor/weapons ...
This only works with weapons (has only ever worked with weapons), which has very limited uses.

Macros were convient which most i dont mind, you know a chain sequence (use these abiiltys in order rinse and repeat) or using a 1 button to encompass two spells of same speed etc etc arent that bad, especially almost neccesary in that game for all the crappy situational skills you got. (look at the priest and shaman classes).
There're very few successful castsequence macros you can create. Even if you do, chaining your skills manually is always superior.


You want a nicer looking bar or put in a different area, sure go for it. Mods that record our damage output of various abilitys like recount sure, thats harmless, but mods and macros that trivialize your classes difficulty or lower your need for awarness need to be broken. Stop dumming down the challenge of the game with needless scripting.
If you're sticking with the Blizzard analogy here, then you should know that they take all of these types of mods/macros into account when designing a boss encounter so that nothing does trivialize it. They also ensure that an encounter can be done "virgin." If you really have an issue with these mods, try a fight like Illidan, Kael'thas, Archimonde or any Sunwell Plateau encounter and tell me that there is any mod (or combination of mods) that trivialize it. I'm thankful for mods like these that allow a large group to coordinate successfully. There're always people that never learn to stay out of the fire... no matter what color it is.

Also to note, there is no mod that really tells you what to do, only what abilities/phases are incoming (and in a lot of encounters, the timers between abilities is random, so that is also limited).

[Emoire]

The thinga bout mods is, they allow players to take things for granted not to be aware of there surrondings.

If you're still talking about WoW there, you should realize that the statement quoted is incorrect. It is imperative that people are aware of their surroundings and how they need to act. If they don't know WTF to do, your raid is dead.

[Sykishi]

I 100% agree with the OP, No crutch mods should be aloud. Only the cosmetic ones if any at all.

I think mods are like drugs to people in mmos. First they get a cosmetic one, that makes something look different(The Gateway mod) then they see that theres one that helps them do something else faster, and so on and so fourth untill the game is on ez-mode and your having mods conrtol just about everything in the game. Then when you tell them the nneed to stop useign mods they blurt out "Raids are impossilbe without them" and other trash, and then they DIE.

you can quote me on that, up to the dieing part. Im not sure if they die, but its in there as a just in case.

[Utakata]

I agree with the OP. If we don't stop crutch mods now, eventually you'll just be able to load up your game with a "Lost Vale" mod enabled, and it automatically sets up your group with other players using the mod, collects you, and fights your way to Lost Vale and completes it for you. You can leave your computer after you enable the Lost Vale mod, as it does the rest of the work for you.

Video games will end up like stocks. You just invest and walk away.

Humanity is much too focused on efficiency nowadays that we're losing sight of the most important aspects of competition and cooperation.

[Teki]

/signed.

:D

[Loekii]

I agree.

NO CRUCH MODS!

[Murloc]

Well, i have to disagree. Im myself playing totally thought different macros ja addon, especially in PVP (WoW). i dont defend some overpowered "one-button-so-it-all" addons like decursive which were mentioned at above. However I see no problem if people creates differnet ways to control their characters.

[Feigro]

I edited and added more content so please dont devalue his post i just posted too early before noticing the 1 example. thanks.

I didn't devalue it, especially not "too early". I can't account for the edits you make after the fact of me reading your post. As far as I knew, it was complete. so I dealt with the information you chose to present to those who would read it. Just because I happened to debunk your initial claim (possibly causing you to cite more examples) doesn't mean I devalued it.

Now, had the edited version been the initial post, and I chose to say only what I said, then sure. But as far as I knew, you were done saying what you wanted to say. You can't expect people to wait for you to edit your posts and complete your argument. When you hit the post button, you're throwing it out for commentary in whatever version it's in.

This doesn't change the fact that I agree with your premise in the first place. Though still maintain that the intial claim presented (and only one at the time) was doable without mods. Making it a poor example to make your point on.

[Gunter]

Well, i have to disagree. Im myself playing totally thought different macros ja addon, especially in PVP (WoW). i dont defend some overpowered "one-button-so-it-all" addons like decursive which were mentioned at above. However I see no problem if people creates differnet ways to control their characters.

Wha do you mean by other ways to control your characters. Do you mean mods that will, when attaced automatically reply with a spell/ability? Or do you man get a different tyope of notification of something that you already get. Like a sound if you are hit. I ask this to get details for a good discussion.

[Keiser]

Those addons are/were required in WoW because the game was designed to need them effectively.

Yes a 40/25 man group in max level raid dungeons of good players doesn't need them, cutting edge players are the first to figure new raid bosses out, and hence they're effectively the ones writing the tools. You can't expect a group of 25-40 people that are casual and frankly terrible at PC games to do the same as a hardcore group that plays for 12 hours a day.

Personally when I was in a mixed guild with some good players and some bad players, it sucks to have the progression of the guild dependent on the 5 people that sometimes don't pay attention and waste 2 hours of everyone's time.

Now if an encounter/style of gameplay does NOT require a few people to mindlessly cast a cleanse spell throughout a large raid group for a solid 15 minutes straight, then there is no need for addons such as Decursive.

Heavily scripted and boring encounters with very specific step 1 through 10 to defeat said boss are the cause for automating gameplay.

I'm still waiting on "smart" PvE encounters that actually use a tiny bit of AI to attempt to beat you instead of "every 45 seconds cast uber death wave of flaming agonyness that everyone just runs behind a wall to avoid" and "every 12.67 seconds smash 7th person on aggro list with cone shaped point blank aoe cleave effect that also knocks down and stuns for 2 seconds and reduces healing by 30% and also makes a curse that if not cleansed kills everyone in 30 feet after 6 seconds if they have no mana left and recently ate an apple pie".

The only real addons of any use in PvP are ones that tell you the types of enemies around you (class/specialization), the health/power levels of them, and what spells/actions they are taking.
Modifications that present information are good and I plan on using many of them. I like to know *everything* that happens around me, but I expect to see very few that try to automate gameplay or make annoying PvE encounters less so.

[Loekii]

Those addons are/were required in WoW because the game was designed to need them effectively.

No offense or insult intended, but I would only believe that if I saw Blizzard say as much.

Without that official acknowledgment, I see it as opinion, much like the opinions that Shadow Priests cannot heal, and other WoW 'facts' that have been disproven.

The way I see it, people tend to fall back on the 'it is required' comment, and dismiss peoples' examples of why it is not required, to avoid recognizing their own short comings or areas for improvement in their own skill.

In other words, it might be required for you and your friends, but not requires for other people.

Again, I am not trying to insult, nor be 'better than thou' -- I might not be able to do it with out the mods either, but I recognize it as my own short comings, rather than saying it is impossible by design without extra-mods.

[Dyst]

Mods enhance gameplay experience, it does not ruin it (for anyone), it makes the game better in the long run.

Tools that give you unfair advantages, such as boosting your stats, are and should not be allowed.

I suggest you guys try fooling around with interface enhancement, it is fun. :p

[elmir]

No offense or insult intended, but I would only believe that if I saw Blizzard say as much.

Without that official acknowledgment, I see it as opinion, much like the opinions that Shadow Priests cannot heal, and other WoW 'facts' that have been disproven.

The way I see it, people tend to fall back on the 'it is required' comment, and dismiss peoples' examples of why it is not required, to avoid recognizing their own short comings or areas for improvement in their own skill.

In other words, it might be required for you and your friends, but not requires for other people.

Again, I am not trying to insult, nor be 'better than thou' -- I might not be able to do it with out the mods either, but I recognize it as my own short comings, rather than saying it is impossible by design without extra-mods.



Actually, there was a very clear answer from blizzard regarding mods. I could look that one up, but the blizz devs stated clearly that they design new encounters specificly with all the possibilities that addons give in mind.

And for those that may not have played WoW for some time now, stating that all the WoW encounters would be trivial:

Taken from www.worldofraids.com (http://www.worldofraids.com):

No, I think we assume that those who are working on the extreme endgame PvE content are going to be doing anything they can in order to help increase their chances for success. By both embracing the UI mod community and their addons, as well as assuming that players are going to be using them to great effect versus our encounters, we have to design encounters that assume their use or the encounter is trivialized by those on vent, those with a countdown, those with a threat meter, etc. Once a lot of the guess work is removed with mods we have to raise the complexity beyond what a mod can purely assist with. I think at this point we're forced to assume everyone is using mods to great effect versus our design complexity, which in turn forces everyone to use those mods. It's probably somewhat debatable what mods are required and where, but it's certain that we have to take them into account, lest the game be trivialized.

UI Mods have become an integral part of the game for many players, and we've been extremely pleased with the amount of customization and information they're able to provide. We're continually working to assess and implement new UI features, many of which have come straight from the community, to help ensure that the default UI is as full featured as possible while remaining uncluttered, clean, attractive, and easily approached.

offical blue post on their official forums: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5640666467&postId=56401791872&sid=1#6

I remember having read it somewhere, just to look it up again.:)

I wonder how mods will work out in WAR though. Seems they can have a certain overall effect that makes the developers do thing they may not have foreseen themselves...

[Utakata]

Actually, there was a very clear answer from blizzard regarding mods. I could look that one up, but the blizz devs stated clearly that they design new encounters specificly with all the possibilities that addons give in mind.

And for those that may not have played WoW for some time now, stating that all the WoW encounters would be trivial:

Taken from www.worldofraids.com (http://www.worldofraids.com):

No, I think we assume that those who are working on the extreme endgame PvE content are going to be doing anything they can in order to help increase their chances for success. By both embracing the UI mod community and their addons, as well as assuming that players are going to be using them to great effect versus our encounters, we have to design encounters that assume their use or the encounter is trivialized by those on vent, those with a countdown, those with a threat meter, etc. Once a lot of the guess work is removed with mods we have to raise the complexity beyond what a mod can purely assist with. I think at this point we're forced to assume everyone is using mods to great effect versus our design complexity, which in turn forces everyone to use those mods. It's probably somewhat debatable what mods are required and where, but it's certain that we have to take them into account, lest the game be trivialized.

UI Mods have become an integral part of the game for many players, and we've been extremely pleased with the amount of customization and information they're able to provide. We're continually working to assess and implement new UI features, many of which have come straight from the community, to help ensure that the default UI is as full featured as possible while remaining uncluttered, clean, attractive, and easily approached.

offical blue post on their official forums: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5640666467&postId=56401791872&sid=1#6

I remember having read it somewhere, just to look it up again.:)

I wonder how mods will work out in WAR though. Seems they can have a certain overall effect that makes the developers do thing they may not have foreseen themselves...

Terrible terrible outlook on the way games work. No wonder WoW raiding is such a piece of crap. I really really hope Mythic doesn't follow this mindset...

Thank god this is a PvP game so if the mods overcome the world of PvE I'll just stop doing it.

[Pangscar]

Terrible terrible outlook on the way games work. No wonder WoW raiding is such a piece of crap. I really really hope Mythic doesn't follow this mindset...

Thank god this is a PvP game so if the mods overcome the world of PvE I'll just stop doing it.

heh it all makes sense now:p. If that truly is your opinion on the state of WoWs raiding then your not really qualified to make judgments on mods used during them are you? Millions and millions of subscribers later says WoW raiding must be doing something right.

[Gunter]

heh it all makes sense now:p. If that truly is your opinion on the state of WoWs raiding then your not really qualified to make judgments on mods used during them are you? Millions and millions of subscribers later says WoW raiding must be doing something right.


So now everyone playes wow to raid? I bet not even 10% have ever run through Illidan...hell or even Nax. Raiding is not WoWs strong point...casual play is.

I can comment on WoW raiding since I did it for about 3 year. I hated the state of it when I quit. Burning Crusade killed it.

[Utakata]

heh it all makes sense now:p. If that truly is your opinion on the state of WoWs raiding then your not really qualified to make judgments on mods used during them are you? Millions and millions of subscribers later says WoW raiding must be doing something right.

I agree with Gunter. Do you think millions of those subscribers are in hardcore guilds doing raiding? I'm going to throw out a rough estimate that there are about 2,000 people per server who ever run Illidan or whatever other hard raids there are. That's a really generous estimation. And WoW has how many servers? Maybe around 300~? That's about 600,000/10,000,000 players who raid. You can't even prove that all those who do it enjoy it.

And you seem to completely disregard how many people QUIT because of raiding. There are an absolute TON of people who stop playing WoW once they reach raid content. Doing something right? I'm going to have to say no.

Some people enjoy it sure, but you can't say "WoW is successful because of its raiding", that's just plain stupid.

[Pangscar]

I agree with Gunter. Do you think millions of those subscribers are in hardcore guilds doing raiding? I'm going to throw out a rough estimate that there are about 2,000 people per server who ever run Illidan or whatever other hard raids there are. That's a really generous estimation. And WoW has how many servers? Maybe around 300~? That's about 600,000/10,000,000 players who raid. You can't even prove that all those who do it enjoy it.

And you seem to completely disregard how many people QUIT because of raiding. There are an absolute TON of people who stop playing WoW once they reach raid content. Doing something right? I'm going to have to say no.

Some people enjoy it sure, but you can't say "WoW is successful because of its raiding", that's just plain stupid.


Well they sure as hell ain't playing WoW for the thrilling PvP content.:rolleyes: You don't need to be in a hardcore guild to raid or to have success in raiding, thats simply a fallacy used by those who need to support their week arguments against raiding. Go take a quick look at this site www.wowjutsu.com. Its basically a listing of raid progress by server and by guild. If you still think its a small number of guilds who will see high end raids then your either blind or lying to yourself to justify your opinions. People leave the game for all kinds of reasons, if you leave because of raiding then you weren't really into raiding or the game itself for that matter anyway.

[Utakata]

Well they sure as hell ain't playing WoW for the thrilling PvP content.:rolleyes: You don't need to be in a hardcore guild to raid or to have success in raiding, thats simply a fallacy used by those who need to support their week arguments against raiding. Go take a quick look at this site www.wowjutsu.com (http://www.wowjutsu.com). Its basically a listing of raid progress by server and by guild. If you still think its a small number of guilds who will see high end raids then your either blind or lying to yourself to justify your opinions. People leave the game for all kinds of reasons, if you leave because of raiding then you weren't really into raiding or the game itself for that matter anyway.

I played WoW for a long time. Pre-BC I never raided, I only played BGs. It was fun as hell. I never touched raids and I could own basically anyone. Then they decided to say "Let's make PvP gear moot, and even the HWL gear suddenly has 0 match against tier gear."

So then they basically forced raiding to progress, and to actually live in PvP, which is ridiculous.

So I said that to say this: I WAS into the game itself. Then they ruined it with raiding. Hence why I am here waiting for Warhammer. The PvP content looks amazing but I still enjoyed the PvE content of WoW. Just not the gimmicky super bogus endgame raids that were necessary. The regular instances were awesome, and I'd rather see fights like that instead of what they are doing with the endgame raids. Obviously things like the king encounter have to be harder than a regular dungeon or instance, but there's more than one way to handle boss fights, and it doesn't always have to be "everyone in every 3rd 15 degree sector within 40m of the boss will be instant killed every 23.4 seconds after the boss's second tentacle from the left moves upward for .5 seconds"

[Gunter]

Well they sure as hell ain't playing WoW for the thrilling PvP content.:rolleyes: You don't need to be in a hardcore guild to raid or to have success in raiding, thats simply a fallacy used by those who need to support their week arguments against raiding. Go take a quick look at this site www.wowjutsu.com (http://www.wowjutsu.com). Its basically a listing of raid progress by server and by guild. If you still think its a small number of guilds who will see high end raids then your either blind or lying to yourself to justify your opinions. People leave the game for all kinds of reasons, if you leave because of raiding then you weren't really into raiding or the game itself for that matter anyway.

One of the reasons thee are no more keying for instnces is because noone went to them. I still hold to no more than 10% have ever run BT. Before BC Blizzard talked about how only 20-30% of the players have played in MC. Let alone BWL. Thats raid game and that raid game was alot better than what it was post BC. Vael was a great encounter, so was Chromaggus. Never needed a meter there.
I bet ALOT of the guilds on Wowjutsu do not exist or are not raiding any more....the game is over 3years old and people have left or moved on to other guilds. My guild is still there and only myself, wife and a few friends that have not logged in in 6-8 months.

Hell. I played ALOT till BC. I even have Thunder Fury. I was a hardcore player.

Most people in WoW do not raid...most do not PvP. most play arround on thier quests and have some fun...well at least the US crowd.

[Bakebehe]

This entire thread is full of people who know virtually nothing about the mods and the macro's uses from WoW, and thus construct strawmen arguments against the application of the mods/macros.

Anything that automates your character is a step too far. But everything else, is purely cosmetic. That means unless the mod actually moves you, or fires off a spell or ability, it's ok. It hasn't automated anything.

Talking about mods in raiding, then pvp, then for non-raid pve, complaining about macro's and mods that are available to the first google search or ask in trade chat.

[Utakata]

This entire thread is full of people who know virtually nothing about the mods and the macro's uses from WoW, and thus construct strawmen arguments against the application of the mods/macros.

Anything that automates your character is a step too far. But everything else, is purely cosmetic. That means unless the mod actually moves you, or fires off a spell or ability, it's ok. It hasn't automated anything.

Talking about mods in raiding, then pvp, then for non-raid pve, complaining about macro's and mods that are available to the first google search or ask in trade chat.

We use the term "automated" loosely. For instance in the void reaver fight, you have the mod that displays to everyone exactly where the aoe is going to occur, and to me that's "automated". It tells people exactly what to do and when, and that's not fun in my opinion.

Same with threat meters, it tells you exactly when to stop casting as a DPS, it's ridiculous.

It might not "automate" your character, but in my eyes, it might as well be.

[Pangscar]

We use the term "automated" loosely. For instance in the void reaver fight, you have the mod that displays to everyone exactly where the aoe is going to occur, and to me that's "automated". It tells people exactly what to do and when, and that's not fun in my opinion.

Same with threat meters, it tells you exactly when to stop casting as a DPS, it's ridiculous.

It might not "automate" your character, but in my eyes, it might as well be.

hmm actually you already know where the aoe is going to come w/o the mod. The ability shoots a sphere at the player and it will explode where you are currently standing, thats how the ability works. What the boss mod does is warn those around you, thats it. Exaggerate more please.

[Lupal]

hmm actually you already know where the aoe is going to come w/o the mod. The ability shoots a sphere at the player and it will explode where you are currently standing, thats how the ability works. What the boss mod does is warn those around you, thats it. Exaggerate more please.

It puts a mark over your head, and automatically types out for you "ORB ON ME! RUN AWAY". Any mod that chats for you, has gone to far.

The hilarious part about it is since VR has been broken (that mod no longer works) the majority of guilds are skipping him now, because he is too "difficult".

WoW has balanced its PVE content around user created mods. They have seen what the community has done with mods, and realized it has trivialized some of the content so they balance encounters assuming all players have those mods.

If an encounter needs a mod to be doable by the majority of the gaming population, then build the damn thing into the core program, to count on on third party to provide it.

(Blizzard is actually doing this, they are building their own built in threat meter for WOTLK, as their PVE content is near impossible without it.)

[Vertinox]

The sign there is a need add-ons for the UI mean the game itself is lacking at best or just broken at worst.

Personally, I think buff/debuff/twisting is generally a sign of min/maxing which is nothing more than the road to twitch based powergaming at an extreme.

I think buffs should be purely strategic in importance and not needed on a tactical mouse twitch FSP like game.

If players feel like they need a 3rd hand in order to play competitively then the game is broken...

[Stiltzkin]

I liked coordinates. as far as mods go I think that was the best. I played in some arenas with a mod called Proximo. This was over the top, too much and imbalanced gameplay. If you at any point hover your mouse over an opposing player it told you his class and kept track of his HP in a little box. The reason it imbalanced the game was... for the remainder of the arena all you had to do was click his name in your box and you targeted him. He could be across the arena behind a pillar and you could target him with your little box. :mad:
Ridiculous. These types of mods should be avoided. If you have to get rid of all mods to avoid this one... just put coords in the game yourself from launch and I don't mind haha.

To anyone who says "if it messes up the game for you don't use it," that is stupid. If it's there I have to use it or I am just giving my opponent an unfair advantage. I shouldn't have to play against it.

[Loekii]

It puts a mark over your head, and automatically types out for you "ORB ON ME! RUN AWAY". Any mod that chats for you, has gone to far.

The hilarious part about it is since VR has been broken (that mod no longer works) the majority of guilds are skipping him now, because he is too "difficult".

Well said and good example of what we are talking about.

You pointed out how it is basically 'playing' for you -- AUTOMATED Chat and AUTOMATED Marker.

You then point out an example of how people become dependent upon such crutches (mods) -- Boss Mob is now considered 'too difficult' without the mod.

Again, good example. It was constructive, provided examples, and did not personally attack posters.

[Loekii]

I liked coordinates. as far as mods go I think that was the best. I played in some arenas with a mod called Proximo. This was over the top, too much and imbalanced gameplay. If you at any point hover your mouse over an opposing player it told you his class and kept track of his HP in a little box. The reason it imbalanced the game was... for the remainder of the arena all you had to do was click his name in your box and you targeted him. He could be across the arena behind a pillar and you could target him with your little box. :mad:
Ridiculous. These types of mods should be avoided. If you have to get rid of all mods to avoid this one... just put coords in the game yourself from launch and I don't mind haha.



Well I don't think this will happen in WAR, as I think LOS is required for Targeting. If you cannot see the enemy toon, you cannot target them, even by typing their name, etc.

[GidFP]

I have never played enough WoW to experience the mods available or what they do. My only experience of Mods is in DAoC. When these conversations first started poping up, I was very confused. I could not see why people are against mods. After talking with some people from WoW (my guild has a WoW branch, I just hated the game) I now understand. DAoC had it right, let people mod the UI to look cleaner, give a few tools (like healers helper). I cannot stand the idea that a mod should give me information on what a mob is going to do, or what my response should be. Reacting to situations is why I play any game. The fact that the Blizzard Devs stated that they are making new encounters based on people using mods is not a valid argument for mods IMHO. All that quote shows is that people have taken the tools provided for them behond what the devs wanted. I would not say they are condoning it, they are dealing with a problem as best they can.

Anyway just my opinion.

[Llamazerker]

I just want my itemrack for warhammer. thats the hybrids dream mod in terms of ease of adapting play styles, and offered a fierce advantage to the skilled player in pvp.

the mod almost by itself made druids and paladins true hybrids who could stop on a dime, and change their style of play.

[Kintanu]

All I have to say is, EA-Mythic has stated time and time again. That the only UI customizing allowed would be the Look of it, and not the Function of it. I.E. no mods that effect the game in any way.

Witch is a good thing considering every PvE instance is 6 man and only the Kings/Emperors are 24 man zones. So what would the need be if 6 people can not pay attention?

[Pangscar]

All I have to say is, EA-Mythic has stated time and time again. That the only UI customizing allowed would be the Look of it, and not the Function of it. I.E. no mods that effect the game in any way.

umm no they have not. They have said there will be mods in WAR but they have not gone into detail about what kinds. If they have stated that time and time again then you shouldn't have any problems providing the sources, I'll await the links.

[Bakebehe]

Well said and good example of what we are talking about.

You pointed out how it is basically 'playing' for you -- AUTOMATED Chat and AUTOMATED Marker.

You then point out an example of how people become dependent upon such crutches (mods) -- Boss Mob is now considered 'too difficult' without the mod.

Again, good example. It was constructive, provided examples, and did not personally attack posters.


Considering the mod doesn't make you move, make others move, doesn't cast a spell, doesn't cause others to cast a spell it still doesn't fall under the definition of automated.

And his example of how people jut don't do VR anymore? Stats please, not anecdotal evidence. Most people probably don't do VR anymore simply because you know, its a boss with terrible loot and so far behind in the raid cycle it's not worth going to the instance its in.

All I have to say is, EA-Mythic has stated time and time again. That the only UI customizing allowed would be the Look of it, and not the Function of it. I.E. no mods that effect the game in any way.



Uh yea cosmetics affect the game, they change the effect each interface has on it. Please state exactly what you mean and not change it a sentence later. Also provide link please.

Well I don't think this will happen in WAR, as I think LOS is required for Targeting. If you cannot see the enemy toon, you cannot target them, even by typing their name, etc.

There's no /target playername? Confirmation on LoS only targeting please, link, somewhere?

I have never played enough WoW to experience the mods available or what they do. My only experience of Mods is in DAoC. When these conversations first started poping up, I was very confused. I could not see why people are against mods. After talking with some people from WoW (my guild has a WoW branch, I just hated the game) I now understand. DAoC had it right, let people mod the UI to look cleaner, give a few tools (like healers helper). I cannot stand the idea that a mod should give me information on what a mob is going to do, or what my response should be. Reacting to situations is why I play any game. The fact that the Blizzard Devs stated that they are making new encounters based on people using mods is not a valid argument for mods IMHO. All that quote shows is that people have taken the tools provided for them behond what the devs wanted. I would not say they are condoning it, they are dealing with a problem as best they can.

Anyway just my opinion.

Yea, most people tend to stick to the games they've played when they give opinions. Blizzard used to have to design raids around mods because Decursive was so powerful pre-BC. But they disabled it. Now the only mod they really need to base it around is Omen, a threat meter that tracks threat as accurately as possible. Blizzard balances around that by making a @#%ton of threat wipes, threat reductions, agro changing abilities - in short, they still add challenge to the game. In fact, making more interesting than if they had to make everyone guess where they were and thus limit the number of abilities a boss had.

Edit; game -> mod

[Kintanu]

Uh yea cosmetics affect the game, they change the effect each interface has on it. Please state exactly what you mean and not change it a sentence later. Also provide link please.Link (http://warhammervault.ign.com/View.php?view=Columns.Detail&id=154)

Further Clarification. Mod = Modification. A Modification is when you change and/or add functionality to a game/program/etc. So no Mods.

Cosmetic is when you Change the Layout/Look/Put all similar stuff in a new window/etc. This does not change any functions of the game, nor does it add any. It just changes the way you view it or access it.

*Edit* OK, i just realized that some people will say that anything that changes the original is considered a Modification. That is true, but when i hear the word mod i think of my definition. Changing the cosmetics i consider Customization. I think of it like Strategy and FPS games. When there is a mod, it changes the style of play. i.e. CS:Source Zombie mod, Hide and seek mod, Starcraft RPG mod, etc. So, I hope that helps clarify what i mean.

[Loekii]

Thanks for the Link, Kintanu:Keen's Korner - UI Mods By Keen (02-11-2008)

I'm very vocal about my dislike for UI mods. During the dev chat back on January 28th Josh Drescher revealed that the Warhammer Online UI will be customizable in terms of appearance, utility, and be completely familiar to experienced modders who know about LUA and all that other technical mumbo jumbo that makes up these mods. I decided to go to the source and ask Josh for clarification. I was happy to receive a response.

Keen: “UI mods for not only appearance but utility… Why Josh? Why?”

Josh: “There really ISN’T anything we can say that WON’T trigger panic from someone. There’s nothing functionally that you can add via a mod that isn’t available in the standard, out of the box UI.“

It is nice to hear something to the effect that we will not be seeing players hacking up the UI to the point that will allow them to create *new* abilities/Functions in the UI.

It basically sounds like Mythic will allow for some extensive reskining (leafy & woods graphic borders and skins), but the functionality will remain consistant with the default UI (ie no Decursives, Meters, auto-markers, etc, not in the UI by default).

If the default out of the box UI, does not have a program to scan the chat window, then it sounds like you will be prevented from adding in that functionality, to then create other functionality. In other words, you cannot use 'data' that exists in the UI, that cannot be retrieved by the standard UI alone.

[Pangscar]

“There really ISN’T anything we can say that WON’T trigger panic from someone. There’s nothing functionally that you can add via a mod that isn’t available in the standard, out of the box UI.“

Hate to burst your bubbles guys but that is exactly how they work in WoW. Mods can't and don't do anything thats not already available in game. Thanks for proving my point with that link.

[Kintanu]

Hate to burst your bubbles guys but that is exactly how they work in WoW. Mods can't and don't do anything thats not already available in game. Thanks for proving my point with that link.
Your welcome. It is true that decursive and the others are just the result of clever LUA programming.
On that note, I do concede that I could be WRONG (I say could because as you read the quotes/links you will see that it remains to be seen) about the depth of Customization/Mods.

Source 1 (http://www.war-rvr.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=53&topic=1578.80)) this was done back in April of 2007. The original interview was done in Italian so this is a translation. WARit interviewed Luis of GOA(he does customer support). We do know that the UI Mod code will be LUA. So this quote basically shows how they feel and what direction they want to go with Mods.
WARit: Will keyboard shortcuts be in the game, and most of all, will there also be shortcuts to activate morale-driven abilities?
GOA: Yes, obviously all required shortcuts will be there, including those for “morale” abilities.
WARit: About UI? Will players be able to customize it?
GOA: Yes – pointing at the whole UI with the mouse - this UI is locked at the moment and is not the final one. In release every single object will be movable on the screen at will. Moreover, UI customization by the user is in the plans.
WARit: What language will be used for customization? XML as in DAoC or LUA as in "other games"?
GOA: At the moment we don’t know what language will be used for UI customization at launch.
WARit: Why haven’t you decided yet what language will be used for UI customization?
GOA: For us it is very important to understand which is the best way to avoid creating solutions that jeopardize the correct usage of character skills in the game. We don’t want to create situations where the character does all by itself just by pressing a key.Source 2 (http://www.only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8363&sid=ac5a5201f7ede79d4ac789748a10e739)) With that said, this next quote shows what you can do. Interviewer was Curse and Interviewee was Lance Robertson (Producer). This was posted back in January of 2007.
Q: What kind of features/support is planned for interface modification or addons?
A: We are aiming for the game interface to be very modifiable. The actual method we have chosen for WAR is to have LUA addons. Extracting ingame information like item stats, character profiles, quest information and similiar will be possible.Source 3 (http://war.curse.com/videos/details/523/)) This is a video from back in August of 2007. Interviewers would be the heads of the Community Sites and Interviewee would be Jeff Hickman. The only tidbit that is relevant to this thread happens at the last 40 seconds of the video. This is the part where my stipulation of being wrong comes it.

Well, thats about it folks. You can speculate from here on out, but until more information is released, this is all we know. Thanks to those who corrected me, otherwise you would not have gotten more quotes. ;)

P.S. that includes you Pangscar

[Bakebehe]

Sounds just like WoW. Here's to NaturCastBar, recap, SCT and Grid. May you be developed quickly in your WAR form.

[Lupal]

Considering the mod doesn't make you move, make others move, doesn't cast a spell, doesn't cause others to cast a spell it still doesn't fall under the definition of automated.

And his example of how people jut don't do VR anymore? Stats please, not anecdotal evidence. Most people probably don't do VR anymore simply because you know, its a boss with terrible loot and so far behind in the raid cycle it's not worth going to the instance its in.


Typing for you is still a form of automation. Putting a big symbol over your head, so you don't have to perform the keystrokes, is still a form of automation. Anything that takes the need for control out of human hands to do a gaming function - that would normally require input from a keyboard/mouse -is automation.

If you bothered to read the WoW boards (please don't, mind you, if you haven't already started, don't torture yourself! ;)) there was a massive outcry when it happened. I am not going to poll each user for you. That isn't necessary.

Yea, most people tend to stick to the games they've played when they give opinions.

How many people tend to stick to that? Is it really "most", or just "some", or "none"?Stats please! not anecdotal evidence! (sorry, couldn't help myself. Goose and Gander and all that stuff. All meant in good fun. :D)

[Bakebehe]

Typing for you is still a form of automation. Putting a big symbol over your head, so you don't have to perform the keystrokes, is still a form of automation. Anything that takes the need for control out of human hands to do a gaming function - that would normally require input from a keyboard/mouse -is automation.

If you bothered to read the WoW boards (please don't, mind you, if you haven't already started, don't torture yourself! ;)) there was a massive outcry when it happened. I am not going to poll each user for you. That isn't necessary.

I guess the breaking of that kind of thing was necessary. Fair enough. Does that mean macros are broken too? Macros that contain speech?


How many people tend to stick to that? Is it really "most", or just "some", or "none"?Stats please! not anecdotal evidence! (sorry, couldn't help myself. Goose and Gander and all that stuff. All meant in good fun. :D)

You caught me fair and square. Shouldn't have made that claim. I should know by now that people will comment on anything no matter what they know, or don't know.

[Nerissa]

I agree with the OP. If we don't stop crutch mods now, eventually you'll just be able to load up your game with a "Lost Vale" mod enabled, and it automatically sets up your group with other players using the mod, collects you, and fights your way to Lost Vale and completes it for you. You can leave your computer after you enable the Lost Vale mod, as it does the rest of the work for you.

Video games will end up like stocks. You just invest and walk away.

Humanity is much too focused on efficiency nowadays that we're losing sight of the most important aspects of competition and cooperation.

There is still a difference between a mod, even one that provides an information overload, and a bot.


What you are describing is a bot, a very advanced one, one that in all probability doesn't exist and will likely not exist for quite some time. (Most bots you see running around are just farmbots. It's low impact activity that doesn't stress out the scripting too much)




If you bothered to read the WoW boards (please don't, mind you, if you haven't already started, don't torture yourself! ;)) there was a massive outcry when it happened. I am not going to poll each user for you. That isn't necessary.




Fun fact about Void Reaver. Sometimes, you get orbs that don't appear on screen until they've already exploded. So in essence... the mod helped mitigate the glitchy encounter.



Even funnier, instead of unglitch the encounter, Blizzard put in hooks for the mod makers to once again tell people who is being targeted. Hello quick and expedient route.

[Lupal]

I guess the breaking of that kind of thing was necessary. Fair enough. Does that mean macros are broken too? Macros that contain speech?


Nope. You still have to press a button or a hotkey to start a macro. The Mod did it for you. Hence, automation.


You caught me fair and square. Shouldn't have made that claim. I should know by now that people will comment on anything no matter what they know, or don't know.

You should know by now that different people playing the same game have different experiences, and just because they don't mirror yours their discussion shouldn't be ignored. Being tolerant of other people's opinions and looking at debate from all sides will open up new ideas and permit meaningful discussion.

I was really just making an absurd (admittedly) comment to show that anyone can ask for stats for anything, especially if they are trying to disprove someone who disagrees with them. If these boards required proper citation for every claim, it would be rediculous. I passed on an experience I realized when the encounter changed, both personal and reading boards - which was that people stop doing VR because the mod was broken.

I could have further strengthened my argument by explaining that my casual raiding guild is ranked 10th in progression on our server, and that we still have gear needs from VR. I could further explain, that the 4 guilds around us in the rankings, that we are familiar/friendly with, also expressed that they stopped doing VR because the encounter without the mod "broke" it. Now, on my server alone, 50 guilds behind us all have at least one VR kill. Since they are ranked behind us in progression, it is safe to assume that all of them still have needs from VR. As the higher progressed guilds found the encounter without the mod difficult, it only makes sense to think some of those 50 guilds behind us (who have less gear and practice on difficult encounters) would have even more of an issue with VR.

So on one server, albeit a small sample size, using a level of reasonable expectation that sample size would in some shape or form carry over to other servers made my statement a fair and strong one. Much as your statement about "most" people (which I actually agreed with - my stat call was for illustration purposes only) was a reasonable expectation.

The reason why it was hard, is that the mod fundamentally changed the encounter. If there was never a mod to do VR, maybe everyone would have practiced actually watching the orbs, instead of having the mod do the work for them. It became a crutch, and afterwards guilds either didn't have the patience to "relearn" the encounter, or were just too lazy.

Anyway, Blizz fixed it so the mod works again. It is common opinion that VR is a joke of an encounter, and mostly because of the mod making it easy for you, as evidenced of the newfound issues with the encounter when the mod "broke". (General progression, you do VR after you can kill Gruul, skipping all of SSC, Mag, and the first 2 bosses in the Eye).

[Lupal]

Fun fact about Void Reaver. Sometimes, you get orbs that don't appear on screen until they've already exploded. So in essence... the mod helped mitigate the glitchy encounter.

Even funnier, instead of unglitch the encounter, Blizzard put in hooks for the mod makers to once again tell people who is being targeted. Hello quick and expedient route.

Lazy programming, for sure. Instead of fixing code rely on a third party mod to fix your multi billion dollar revenue generator. Band aid fixes are bad long term.

In general, I want to be very clear I am not against game information being available to players, only that the game information be equally available to ALL players as part of the base package. For fun, let's look at how WAR RVR would play out with current WoW mods.

===========================================
An open RVR scenario, 3 dwarves run into a sorc.

Sorceress starts casting "uber AOE of pure death" targetting the ironbreaker.

The Ironbreaker's mod puts a mark over his head, indicating that a big AOE spell is incoming, and the mod types in "AOE ON ME! RUN AWAY" and plays an audible warning to his group members. The mod tells him it is a shadow based spell so he drinks a shadow resist pot right away.

Other group members check their range finder, and it shows two of them are too close to the Ironbreaker and will get hit by the AOE damage, so the move 5 yards to the left so the AOE won't hit them.

The Runepriest's mod, tells him that damage is incoming to the ironbreaker by color coding the players info box. It also calculates an average of how much damage the Ironbreaker will take from the spell, by alpha changing a portion of the Ironbreakers health box. He sees that the IB has approximately 3000 units of damage incoming, and starts to cast the appropriate heal spell to counterbalance the damage, before it even hits.

The Sorceress finishes her AOE cast, which only hits the IB, with reduced damage from the resist pot, and doesnt hit anyone else as they were warned by their mods to move away from the IB. The damage is healed .5 seconds later by the runepriest who had already cast the appropriate heal spell.

Meanwhile, the dwarves mods flash that the Sorc has blown all of her escape cooldowns, is out of Action Points, and is low on Morale, so they go in for the easy kill. After killing the sorc, enemy boxes appear in the left hand corner of their screen showing enemies have entered the area, and lists their name, class, spec, level, and renown points.

==========================================

Those are all mods that currently work in Wow. And that doesn't sound as much fun to me as having to figure out those things on my own in the battlefield. In essence, the player ends up playing his/her UI, not the game. Pay attention to the UI only, who cares what is going on in the actual game!

Again, to be perfectly clear, if that is the way WAR is going to play out, then so be it. My point is, if all of those features are built into the game (not by a third party) then it is fair and the way it is. If third party mods are a necessity to compete on that same level, then the mods are bad for the game.

[Pogo]

I didn't devalue it, especially not "too early". I can't account for the edits you make after the fact of me reading your post. As far as I knew, it was complete. so I dealt with the information you chose to present to those who would read it. Just because I happened to debunk your initial claim (possibly causing you to cite more examples) doesn't mean I devalued it.

Now, had the edited version been the initial post, and I chose to say only what I said, then sure. But as far as I knew, you were done saying what you wanted to say. You can't expect people to wait for you to edit your posts and complete your argument. When you hit the post button, you're throwing it out for commentary in whatever version it's in.

This doesn't change the fact that I agree with your premise in the first place. Though still maintain that the intial claim presented (and only one at the time) was doable without mods. Making it a poor example to make your point on.


lol nah man i was looking out for ya, i dont take offensive to waht you said even if i left out the other examples :)

[Nerissa]

Well Lupal, that mod could be possible (and I imagine you could build it in WoW, but no one apparently has seen or felt a need for it), but it relies on one key hook.


It has to know what the Sorceress is casting in order to say "OMG AOE!". (And pre-highlight damage) Without that, the most it could do is highlight whoever is being targeted by an enemy.


Which would make it more like Grid, which will highlight whoever is being targeted (NOT who is taking damage. Only people actively being targeted), track incoming heals (which is useful to not waste your time topping someone off when they're gonna get topped off before your heal goes off), track debuffs which the default UI already does for you. And that's about it.


I would have to say that in a game with a goodly amount of AoE and large battle chaos, the highlighting targets feature would be very overestimated. It's more useful in things like 8v8 (where it would track the assist train), than in a large chaotic brawl.

[Loekii]

I would say Grid definitely is something that should be nixed in WAR. Telling you that someone is going to be healed by someone else???.

[Lupal]

Well Lupal, that mod could be possible (and I imagine you could build it in WoW, but no one apparently has seen or felt a need for it), but it relies on one key hook.


The examples I used above are all mods that I currently use, or have used, in the past. It isn't one single mod, but yeah, those are the possibilities. They all currently exist in WoW (separate from one another) but I just mashed them together to make the point, that mods can go to far. I did take PVE mods and PVP mods in the above example.

I completely agree with you though - in big battles no one will have time to react to mods - in small skirmishes they can definitely tip the tide of the battle - IF one side doesn't have access to it. Hence, if it is needed in game, build it in default UI, don't let a mod give an advantage, just better looks/layouts =)

It has to know what the Sorceress is casting in order to say "OMG AOE!". (And pre-highlight damage) Without that, the most it could do is highlight whoever is being targeted by an enemy.

I already know what spell is being cast, and how long is left on the cast timer, with the mods in WoW. It is already done =)

[Nerissa]

I already know what spell is being cast, and how long is left on the cast timer, with the mods in WoW. It is already done =)


But will that information be made available to the player in such a way that a mod can access it, in WAR?


Thus my point. The chief weakness of that function is that it relies on some sort of hook, be it a line in the combat log or an actual API call, to tell you what is being cast. If it doesn't have that information, it cannot display that information AND any information derived from it.

[Nerissa]

I would say Grid definitely is something that should be nixed in WAR. Telling you that someone is going to be healed by someone else???.

That function also has its weaknesses... but its hooks cannot be broken without consequences. (You would have to make the player unable to know what his allies are casting, and unable to /assist.)


As a function, it can be extremely useful or extremely useless, this is target dependant AND content dependant. It is not nearly as useful in PvP content as you can never be sure that a heal is going to actually reach the recipient, while in PvE content its usefulness is mainly for healing people that are taking intermittent damage from environmental factors/unavoidable damage from boss, so you aren't treading all over each other's toes trying to get people topped off.

It sounds more useful than it is. But, it is a nice helpful feature that helps make healing group PvE content a little less stressful for the healers by letting them know that yes, there is healing going out in that direction so you can focus your attention elsewhere.


So in summary, not as useful in PvP as you would think, and nice in PvE.

[Bakebehe]

I would say Grid definitely is something that should be nixed in WAR. Telling you that someone is going to be healed by someone else???.

Repeat this when looking at a mod.

Does it automate any action for you? Y/N.

Y - break mod.
N- move on.

[Bakebehe]

You should know by now that different people playing the same game have different experiences, and just because they don't mirror yours their discussion shouldn't be ignored. Being tolerant of other people's opinions and looking at debate from all sides will open up new ideas and permit meaningful discussion.



Considering he was talking about WoW when he admittedly hadn't played it I think you badly misunderstood my post.

[Molnu]

Repeat this when looking at a mod.

Does it automate any action for you? Y/N.

Y - break mod.
N- move on.

Most definitely.

It TELLS you what to do.

There's nothing farther from automation IMO. And I'm not going to argue semantics here. My definition of automation is something making a decision for you. In this case, grid is obviously a crutch for the player, to show that your efficiency is about to be less than perfect.

This is exactly what I don't like about mods. Again, this argument is most likely similar to multiboxing arguments or other arguments like that, either side is going to think they're right and never going to budge.

My opinion is that in a case that a mod would influence your decision to do something you wouldn't have normally done, that mod should be broken.

Again, going with the double healing example, I personally believe this is an unfair advantage in PvP. Part of the fun of war is the randomness and the accidents that occur. Healing the same person twice and ruining efficiency? That's totally your fault and part of the muck-ups of war that causes a side to win/lose. I don't want a side to win/lose purely based on stats (which is what crutch mods favor - a gear-centric WoW system where everyone knows what to do at all time, it just depends who's more geared out and/or has the best mods).

So thus we have my opinion, and my side of the argument. I'm sure many people in this thread would agree with me, while many would disagree, like Pangscar or you, Bakebahe.

Oh and Pangscar,

“There really ISN’T anything we can say that WON’T trigger panic from someone. There’s nothing functionally that you can add via a mod that isn’t available in the standard, out of the box UI.“Hate to burst your bubbles guys but that is exactly how they work in WoW. Mods can't and don't do anything thats not already available in game. Thanks for proving my point with that link.

There's quite a difference between UI and game. Hate to burst your bubble but WoW's basic UI does not have this functionality.

[Lupal]

Considering he was talking about WoW when he admittedly hadn't played it I think you badly misunderstood my post.

I most certainly did then B, I thought you were talking about me =) My apologies.

[wtnind]

Oh lordy lord, where to begin. Frankly 'why is there another mods thread?' is a good place, whats wrong with the other 10?

To sum up the other threads, developers have limited time, open source developers have nigh unlimited time. Developers can easily break addons they feel go too far with very little time investment either in policing or API changing.

More information = better gameplay, Less information = more roleplay.

90% of mods are just taking stuff that is displayed obscurely (debuffs landing in the combat log etc) and making it clear and prioritising which ones are brought to your attention. Another big pile are things you could record on a piece of paper (where resource nodes/ monsters are).

Addons are about improving the interface, if you want to play a game with a crap interface because it makes you feel special when you finally master it then play an xbox or unplug the keyboard and mouse click everything.

[Arcantir]

It depends heavily on what the mod is doing.

However, generally, my opinion is that it should not change the gaming experience such that you -have- to have said mod in order to play comeptativly.

[Wiliestrogue]

Well I don't think this will happen in WAR, as I think LOS is required for Targeting. If you cannot see the enemy toon, you cannot target them, even by typing their name, etc.

LOS was supposed to be required in WoW from what I remember but I could still use ICU (WoW hunter mod) to target dots on my minimap when in Arenas. It gave us a huge PvP advantage knowing what we were fighting and being able to target right of the bat. Basically, I felt like we were cheating, even though the mod was allowed.

Before somebody asks, "Then why did you use it?". C'mon...if you didn't use addons, macros and mods in Arena or PvP you sucked, and if you didn't have them for raids you weren't invited. Ridiculous.

Seriously, why should I have to DL player made crap to be able to run raids or compete in PvP. It makes absolulely no sense. If Blizzard took the time to make a decent, playable game we wouldn't have needed those cheats. Yes, they are cheats.

Mods and addons suck. Period.

The most I ever want to see in WAR is the ability to customize the location of my hotbars and I want Mythic to implemement it. NO player made addons or mods allowed....ever.

/rant off

[Nerissa]

Most definitely.

It TELLS you what to do.




Right. It tells me all of the little variables I have to be aware of besides the fact that yes, someone else is tossing a heal in that direction. It tells me that a Cave In won't land on that person's head. Clearly, this simple function that tells you the simple fact that a heal is headed out in that direction (and only that) can clearly predict what other damage the subject might take.



/sarcasm

If anything, YOU people, who keep saying this, are the ones that would play like a pack of idiots when given these mods. All Grid does is give you INFORMATION. It is your job as the player to act on this information as you see fit.


Note my sarcastic comment, because that applies HEAVILY in PvP.

[Wiliestrogue]

Right. It tells me all of the little variables I have to be aware of besides the fact that yes, someone else is tossing a heal in that direction. It tells me that a Cave In won't land on that person's head. Clearly, this simple function that tells you the simple fact that a heal is headed out in that direction (and only that) can clearly predict what other damage the subject might take.



/sarcasm

If anything, YOU people, who keep saying this, are the ones that would play like a pack of idiots when given these mods. All Grid does is give you INFORMATION. It is your job as the player to act on this information as you see fit.


Note my sarcastic comment, because that applies HEAVILY in PvP.

Information is power. One player having more information than another through the use of Mods is an advantage. If the game wasn't originally designed to provide you with the information...you shouldn't have it. It's called cheating.

Think of it like taking an open-book test where nobody else but you has the book.

[GidFP]

Considering he was talking about WoW when he admittedly hadn't played it I think you badly misunderstood my post.

Sorry this is from a few pages back, but I dont get on these boards as often as I like. I did not say I have never played WoW. I said I had not played it much, as I thought it was a crappy game. I also stated that a large portion of my guild plays WoW and actively raid and use mods(roughly 100 members). In fact they now require all members to have certain mods to join a raid. It is from them that I got information about WoW mods, and this information helped me form my opinion.

I do know what I am talking about, just because I did not play WoW for more than 6 months does not mean I am clueless...

Ok you can all return to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[Nerissa]

Information is power. One player having more information than another through the use of Mods is an advantage. If the game wasn't originally designed to provide you with the information...you shouldn't have it. It's called cheating.

Think of it like taking an open-book test where nobody else but you has the book.

*sigh*

I give up. I guess people here would be content to ride the train of 'devoloper intent' straight into a brick wall, in a mine cart filled to the brim with explosives.

[Pangscar]

Information is power. One player having more information than another through the use of Mods is an advantage. If the game wasn't originally designed to provide you with the information...you shouldn't have it. It's called cheating.

Think of it like taking an open-book test where nobody else but you has the book.

The information is available to everyone, hence no disadvantage. Mods only give you the same information available to everyone and puts it in a style or interface to suit your own playstyle. If you don't know what mods are or do then you probably should not be commenting on them.

[GidFP]

The information is available to everyone, hence no disadvantage. Mods only give you the same information available to everyone and puts it in a style or interface to suit your own playstyle. If you don't know what mods are or do then you probably should not be commenting on them.

The issue is not that mods are available to everyone. The problem I have, and I think most people here have, is that to be on even footing with other players we need to download third party apps. This problem becomes worse over time, as new mods are made, but not everyone has it yet. This game is designed around conflict with other players, and as such should equal for all users. There are plenty of players who do not use mods, such as casual players just looking for some fun. A mod should never be consider required for any reason.

[Pogo]

all mods should be made by the game developers giving people the ability to reveal obscure information to themselves directly and easily gives them an unfair advantage.

E.X. if you dont see some enemy healing your target behind you, you shouldnt have a mod that pulls up the combat text and goes omg someones healing your target! you should have to see it to know.

E.X. You shouldn't know that someone is attacking another person without seeing it your self etc etc.

Imho to solve all these problems the game developers should make any and all modifications to the game. Open source is just a lazy way of not regulating your game.

[Loekii]

The information is available to everyone, hence no disadvantage. Mods only give you the same information available to everyone and puts it in a style or interface to suit your own playstyle. If you don't know what mods are or do then you probably should not be commenting on them.

And on the same note, if you do not understand the differences between that is *available* to everyone, and a Mod that puts it into much easier method of displaying that information, then you you should not be commenting on whether or not mods affect a game.

There are significant differences, that you are dismissing.

Again, going back to card counting. Counting in your head is VERY different than having a computer keep track for you. Not acknowledging such a difference is flawed.

[Molnu]

I agree with Loekii.

Part of the hectic nature of war is trying to keep track of the tons of things going on. This is actually accurately displayed in a combat window, but the second you have little arrows and colors on your screen to indicate what's happening in the chat log, it's as if you're an American in D-Day and all the weapons strewn on the ground are highlighted for easy access and all the Germans have giant floating arrows above them. And if someone is aiming at you some magic text appears in front of your eyes like "TAKE COVER". Oh and if your ally is guarding your back and he dies, instead of having to check if he's dead you instead get giant text like "BEHIND YOU".

Yeah, that's a realistic war alright.

I don't deny that it's helpful, but our side is basically arguing that it's too helpful. Your side doesn't seem to care about the morality behind it, only that it helps you play more efficiently. That's fine, it's an opinion. Mythic will have the final say in what mods are allowed, and from what I've read and interpreted, there will be no mods like Grid.

If I'm wrong so be it. I'll grumble a bit and start using Grid, or I won't use it and still own you anyway :D

[Bakebehe]

Most definitely.

It TELLS you what to do.

There's nothing farther from automation IMO. And I'm not going to argue semantics here. My definition of automation is something making a decision for you. In this case, grid is obviously a crutch for the player, to show that your efficiency is about to be less than perfect.

This is exactly what I don't like about mods. Again, this argument is most likely similar to multiboxing arguments or other arguments like that, either side is going to think they're right and never going to budge.

My opinion is that in a case that a mod would influence your decision to do something you wouldn't have normally done, that mod should be broken.

Again, going with the double healing example, I personally believe this is an unfair advantage in PvP. Part of the fun of war is the randomness and the accidents that occur. Healing the same person twice and ruining efficiency? That's totally your fault and part of the muck-ups of war that causes a side to win/lose. I don't want a side to win/lose purely based on stats (which is what crutch mods favor - a gear-centric WoW system where everyone knows what to do at all time, it just depends who's more geared out and/or has the best mods).

So thus we have my opinion, and my side of the argument. I'm sure many people in this thread would agree with me, while many would disagree, like Pangscar or you, Bakebahe.

Oh and Pangscar,



There's quite a difference between UI and game. Hate to burst your bubble but WoW's basic UI does not have this functionality. Hate to burst your bubble, but anything that cannot be displayed by the stock ui can't be done in mods. If you wanted you could select each member of the raid with ctrl-tab very quickly, see who they were targeting, scroll through your combat log and see the spell they were casting. Grid only collates the information and updates it in an easier to use format.

No one makes the decision for you but yourself. Just because the game says this is how much is incoming, with regards to Grid, doesn't mean you have to follow it. It does not automate. Thanks for bringing up a pvp argument I never made and making it into a strawman.

Precise meanings are necessary as well. You once again attack the person behind the argument rather than the argument itself, implying both that I'm a lesser player and someone who's quibbling over the minor details.

Also, I don't really give a damn whether more people on these boards agree with you or not. There's a reason we don't have a majority dictatorship in any civilised western countries.

The issue is not that mods are available to everyone. The problem I have, and I think most people here have, is that to be on even footing with other players we need to download third party apps. This problem becomes worse over time, as new mods are made, but not everyone has it yet. This game is designed around conflict with other players, and as such should equal for all users. There are plenty of players who do not use mods, such as casual players just looking for some fun. A mod should never be consider required for any reason.

Info is still available to everyone. Repeat that mantra to yourself. If casual players don't care about winning and losing all the time and are out for this 'your definition of a good time' then why care what other people are using?

Do you really want things to be equal to all users? Then everyone has the same gear, same level, same abilities. There. There's your equal. And lets limit the number of movements they can make a minute. Sound ridiculous? Yep, just as ridiculous as restricting players who want to do better.

And on the same note, if you do not understand the differences between that is *available* to everyone, and a Mod that puts it into much easier method of displaying that information, then you you should not be commenting on whether or not mods affect a game.

There are significant differences, that you are dismissing.

Again, going back to card counting. Counting in your head is VERY different than having a computer keep track for you. Not acknowledging such a difference is flawed.


So we've moved on from the 'automating actions for player' to 'it presents information too neatly'

Of course it does. If you ever change your ui however, you can't call out anyone. Move a button to a more advantageous position? Oh no, you've just made it easier than someone who has to move their mouse across the screen. Play with both your combat and chat log open? Too bad, can't do that, you've made it easier to keep track of info than the poor sods who keep their logs in tabs.

-snip-


And so it begins, the 'realistic' argument.
Also if you are going to beat me anyway, why complain?

[Retina]

So let's attack the argument:

Grid only collates the information and updates it in an easier to use format.
There's that word "easier" again. To make your point, you state that the information is already in an easy format. Why is easy not good enough?

Do you really want things to be equal to all users? Then everyone has the same gear, same level, same abilities. There. There's your equal. And lets limit the number of movements they can make a minute. Sound ridiculous? Yep, just as ridiculous as restricting players who want to do better.
I LOVE this argument.

Yes, everyone will be equal. Everyone will be the same level (40). Everyone will have the same gear (best for their class). Everyone will have the same abilities (since they've spec'd the flavour of the week). To the number of movements you can make in a minute, well, everyone is limited as there's a global cooldown plus the cooldowns on all your abilities so that limitation already exists in all these games.

So you want to do better. Good. Anyone can do that by simply using their brain. You don't need the crutch of mods.

[Bakebehe]

So let's attack the argument:


There's that word "easier" again. To make your point, you state that the information is already in an easy format. Why is easy not good enough?


I LOVE this argument.

Yes, everyone will be equal. Everyone will be the same level (40). Everyone will have the same gear (best for their class). Everyone will have the same abilities (since they've spec'd the flavour of the week). To the number of movements you can make in a minute, well, everyone is limited as there's a global cooldown plus the cooldowns on all your abilities so that limitation already exists in all these games.

So you want to do better. Good. Anyone can do that by simply using their brain. You don't need the crutch of mods.

To make my point? Why not? Why shouldn't something be made easier? Why not improve? You know, that's how humanity got to where it is today?

Uh, as to your second point...what?

You made up a scenario that won't exist and use that as justification for banning mods?
Also crutch. It does not mean what you think it means.

[Sykishi]

Why cant mods have to be approved by Mythic before they are aloud in-game?
If mods have to go thru a screening process then we don't need to argue about it because the devs will show there approval/disproval for the mods.

Also, i love how steamed some people are getting when theirs a call to take away there crutches. A good hoax to start could be something like"Blizz says no more mods, ever. Mod using will be a bannable offense." just to see how many people call for a jihad on blizz lol.

[Aes]

Why cant mods have to be approved by Mythic before they are aloud in-game?
If mods have to go thru a screening process then we don't need to argue about it because the devs will show there approval/disproval for the mods.

A screening process is unrealistic, with the number of mods that will be produced, Mythic couldn't possibly screen them anywhere near as fast as they are made. Not to mention they would have to rescreen each mod as they were updated.

[Sykishi]

To make my point? Why not? Why shouldn't something be made easier? Why not improve? You know, that's how humanity got to where it is today?

You say that like were some prosperous utopia lol, have you ever watched the news or read a newspaper in the last 100 years? All "easier" is doing to the world is making us fatter,slower and less intelligent.

[Sykishi]

A screening process is unrealistic, with the number of mods that will be produced, Mythic couldn't possibly screen them anywhere near as fast as they are made. Not to mention they would have to rescreen each mod as they were updated.
all them ore reason to do away with them all together, i really don't understand why people just cant be happy with what the devs want us to use.

[Bhaal]

LOL bots are the only thing I hate.

You guys hate the information the mod gives you then don't use them. It doesn't make the game trivial at all it just tells you when things are going to happen if you not paying attention then your going to die with or without the mod. These are games they are made to be fun not so anoying that you have to quit because you now have a second job. Thats why I quit wow it because to be good at any thing you had to raid atleast three times a week. If we didn't have the mods it would bit 7 times a week because the stupid people would suck more and make it less fun for everyone else. I enjoyed raiding when I had the time. If you ubber leet then don't use the mod. If your the casual guy that doesnt have time to memorize the boss that you have never run, you don't mess it you for everyone else by commiting suicide.

You ubber leet professional gamers out there who think the crappy mods make it easy for everyone are full of it. They make the game fun because GAMES ARE FOR FUN. They how ever are not jobs because I already have one of those and jobs suck.

[Aes]

all them ore reason to do away with them all together, i really don't understand why people just cant be happy with what the devs want us to use.

Because the mod community has always been able to outdo the dev team in terms of usable UI's. So much so, that devs take the work of the mod community to make their default UI's bearable. Even if devs could compete with the mod community in terms of quality they couldn't possibly handle the workload of making all the different variety to satisfy everyone like the mod community does. In the end the benefits of modding outweigh the costs.

[elmir]

Information is power. One player having more information than another through the use of Mods is an advantage. If the game wasn't originally designed to provide you with the information...you shouldn't have it. It's called cheating.

Think of it like taking an open-book test where nobody else but you has the book.

Actually, most info can be found in a combat log, which is also the thing most of those mods get their info from to process them into something more refined like a timer/meter/whatnot.

As for the last part, that made me giggle, as people who like mods can just as easily go: "think of it like an open-book test where you were too stupid to actually buy the book, and then go complaining others scored better..." ;)

Not saying you're stupid, just pointing out that the analogy wasn't quite waterproof. :p

[Molnu]

Hate to burst your bubble, but anything that cannot be displayed by the stock ui can't be done in mods. If you wanted you could select each member of the raid with ctrl-tab very quickly, see who they were targeting, scroll through your combat log and see the spell they were casting. Grid only collates the information and updates it in an easier to use format.

I'm just saying I don't agree with this, that's all. This argument is going nowhere. You don't agree with me, I don't agree with you. I UNDERSTAND your point of view perfectly: I just don't agree.

You once again attack the person behind the argument rather than the argument itself, implying both that I'm a lesser player and someone who's quibbling over the minor details.

I did not attack you in any way. I simply said you disagree with me. I never once said anything about the person behind the argument outside of that.

[Lupal]

These are games they are made to be fun not so anoying that you have to quit because you now have a second job. Thats why I quit wow it because to be good at any thing you had to raid atleast three times a week. If we didn't have the mods it would bit 7 times a week because the stupid people would suck more and make it less fun for everyone else.

You ubber leet professional gamers out there who think the crappy mods make it easy for everyone are full of it. They make the game fun because GAMES ARE FOR FUN. They how ever are not jobs because I already have one of those and jobs suck.

Bhaal, you made one of the best examples yet. Maybe by accident =)

Your dislike of WoW without mods, only shows that those mods should have been built into the game in the first place. WoW balanced their game around the mods available, and made the game EXTREMELY difficult for the majority of the playerbase who weren't using them. If you don't use mods in todays WoW, you can't enjoy the experience the same way. (Save for that top 1% of the players who figure out all the encounters before the mods are done. Hats off to those players!).

If Mods are allowwed to run rampant like in WoW, WAR will be tuned like WoW, where you can't enjoy the game without it - because of the vast disparity of UI functionality. It is lazy programming on Blizz's part. They have let the mod community shape the difficulty of their game.

Because I want to enjoy the game, and not get roflpwned by a player whose only advantage over me is LeetModPack2.0, I will download and use mods that are necessary to compete in this game. They may be numerous, they may be few, none of us know. I use a ton of mods in WoW, because without them, I am letting my guildmates down as I can't play the game as effectively as needed in Black Temple. Mods are required in WoW. I don't want them required in WAR, but if they are I will live with it and spend the extra hour a week (when I could be having fun, doing RVR, etc) updating the mods, searching the web for the best/required ones, etc.

On a side note, one thing I haven't covered in this thread is how much I do respect the people who write those mods. They really are amazing programmers and do incredible work - and I wish more MMO companies would hire those fricken people to build things into the default UI!

[GidFP]

Here's the deal. Mods are a good thing, for the most part. I don't know that I have stated that before, as I know that my last 2 posts have been defensive instead of informative. I have no problem with making currently available information easier to see. This is a good thing. The mods that I have a problem with, and hope will not be available in WAR, are mods for the lazy. What I mean by this is, if the combat log already tells me that something is happening (IE a boss is using a certain attack) and the mod just makes it more prominent, this is good. If the mod takes the next step and has a macro scripted that whenever it outputs that warning it will also send a message in chat, this is going too far. If you cannot make the decision for yourself to type a short message to your group, or tell people in vent, then you are lazy. If the mod automatically selects the best target for a spell you are casting, to "make you more efficient", then you are either too lazy to look at the situation around you or too stupid to make the decision about who to cast on. This last example is the most important to me. As this is a RvR game I would like to feel confident that I am playing against people, that is the whole point of the game. If I wanted to play against a program, I would. I would go play WoW or some other PvE game. I do not want a fair fight in that we are all the same exact toon, I want to know that I am playing against a human not a human and a program at the same time. I cannot understand why some people have such a strong desire to see any and all mods in this game. Let the mod community make a better interface, just take away the ability to script macros into them. This is a contest of who is the better player, not the better programmers.

Edit: sorry about the wall of text, it is 6 am here and my brain is not turned on yet. As you can tell this is mostly ranting.

[Molnu]

Here's the deal. Mods are a good thing, for the most part. I don't know that I have stated that before, as I know that my last 2 posts have been defensive instead of informative. I have no problem with making currently available information easier to see. This is a good thing. The mods that I have a problem with, and hope will not be available in WAR, are mods for the lazy. What I mean by this is, if the combat log already tells me that something is happening (IE a boss is using a certain attack) and the mod just makes it more prominent, this is good. If the mod takes the next step and has a macro scripted that whenever it outputs that warning it will also send a message in chat, this is going too far. If you cannot make the decision for yourself to type a short message to your group, or tell people in vent, then you are lazy. If the mod automatically selects the best target for a spell you are casting, to "make you more efficient", then you are either too lazy to look at the situation around you or too stupid to make the decision about who to cast on. This last example is the most important to me. As this is a RvR game I would like to feel confident that I am playing against people, that is the whole point of the game. If I wanted to play against a program, I would. I would go play WoW or some other PvE game. I do not want a fair fight in that we are all the same exact toon, I want to know that I am playing against a human not a human and a program at the same time. I cannot understand why some people have such a strong desire to see any and all mods in this game. Let the mod community make a better interface, just take away the ability to script macros into them. This is a contest of who is the better player, not the better programmers.

Edit: sorry about the wall of text, it is 6 am here and my brain is not turned on yet. As you can tell this is mostly ranting.

I agree!

Things like grid just baffle my mind. It BLATANTLY gives the advantage to people who use it, and seeing how Mythic is trying their best to keep everything good in-game (guild UI anyone? In-game calendar to prevent people from having to go to some website... sound familiar?) and fair for everyone, especially the casuals who don't even know what a mod is, and also looking at DAoC and how they did their mods - I have faith in what they do and do not allow.

[Gromzog]

Personally I love mods, they make a game very easy to perfectly fine tune to how a player wants to play the game. There should be some limitations however. Such as the threat meters from Warcraft where you could see which position you were in the threat queue on a monster was just such a cheat. Also things like automatically dispelling debuffs without the user having to really do anything I class as cheaty. I just hope mods like this will never make it into this game, even if that restriction is a block on certain types of LUA code by Mythic.

[Bakebehe]

You say that like were some prosperous utopia lol, have you ever watched the news or read a newspaper in the last 100 years? All "easier" is doing to the world is making us fatter,slower and less intelligent.

...lol, what. This post just blows my mind. We're going forward but going backward? Oh dear god.

I'm just saying I don't agree with this, that's all. This argument is going nowhere. You don't agree with me, I don't agree with you. I UNDERSTAND your point of view perfectly: I just don't agree. You're right, theres no need for any further discussion on the topic, except when new developments are revealed. People are too at odds with what exactly is 'cheating'

Personally I love mods, they make a game very easy to perfectly fine tune to how a player wants to play the game. There should be some limitations however. Such as the threat meters from Warcraft where you could see which position you were in the threat queue on a monster was just such a cheat. Also things like automatically dispelling debuffs without the user having to really do anything I class as cheaty. I just hope mods like this will never make it into this game, even if that restriction is a block on certain types of LUA code by Mythic.


And this is why this thread will go nowhere. We saw this kind of post 3 pages ago, and now some people are going to have to start all over again.

[Gromzog]

And this is why this thread will go nowhere. We saw this kind of post 3 pages ago, and now some people are going to have to start all over again.How so? I gave my opinion, even if it was several pages into the thread. I'm not going to not give my opinion just because it's late into the thread. By "going nowhere" I assume you mean getting everyone to agree on one thing, which is never going to happen. I'm not bothered if people don't agree with me, or need another few pages to argue about it.

[Molnu]

By going nowhere we mean that we shouldn't try to convince the other side of the opinion that we're right. We should just state our opinions and move on, which is exactly what Gromzog did, and that's fine.

[Pogo]

Here's the deal. Mods are a good thing, for the most part. I don't know that I have stated that before, as I know that my last 2 posts have been defensive instead of informative. I have no problem with making currently available information easier to see. This is a good thing. The mods that I have a problem with, and hope will not be available in WAR, are mods for the lazy. What I mean by this is, if the combat log already tells me that something is happening (IE a boss is using a certain attack) and the mod just makes it more prominent, this is good. If the mod takes the next step and has a macro scripted that whenever it outputs that warning it will also send a message in chat, this is going too far. If you cannot make the decision for yourself to type a short message to your group, or tell people in vent, then you are lazy. If the mod automatically selects the best target for a spell you are casting, to "make you more efficient", then you are either too lazy to look at the situation around you or too stupid to make the decision about who to cast on. This last example is the most important to me. As this is a RvR game I would like to feel confident that I am playing against people, that is the whole point of the game. If I wanted to play against a program, I would. I would go play WoW or some other PvE game. I do not want a fair fight in that we are all the same exact toon, I want to know that I am playing against a human not a human and a program at the same time. I cannot understand why some people have such a strong desire to see any and all mods in this game. Let the mod community make a better interface, just take away the ability to script macros into them. This is a contest of who is the better player, not the better programmers.

Edit: sorry about the wall of text, it is 6 am here and my brain is not turned on yet. As you can tell this is mostly ranting.

This basically will sum it up for me for my final post on this thread, i agree and relate with this opinion the most, the game wont crash because some programmers dont get to write their own mods, for once we'll get a game that has a basic universal foundation without third party add ons to decide how well you play a game. That is all.

/my thread

[c_vadnais]

While I dont necessarily hate mods, i'd rather not have them. I use mods to an extent, but they're only cosmetic or have some function that doesn't pertain to gameplay (ex. Flag RSP in WoW for RP, or X-perl unit frames). In my own opinion mods can take away the skill in a game, things like mods that show big red letters on your screen telling you when to hit certain buttons take all the thinking out of it. Its an MMORPG, it requires thinking and teamwork, if you wanna just click a button mindlessly for hours on end go play a FPS.

On that note, you also have to keep in mind new players, not many people are going to wanna join WAR, only to be told they have to download X amount of mods if they wanna do something other than die a lot. Hell it even annoys me for people to think that certain mods are absolutely necessary for the success of a player, which is only true if the devs design the game that way *cough*WoW*cough*

[Molnu]

Its an MMORPG, it requires thinking and teamwork, if you wanna just click a button mindlessly for hours on end go play a FPS.

I agree with your thinking, but I think an FPS requires more thinking and teamwork than you think. Not games with fast-paced deathmatches, but team games in leagues/clan matches.

[Wiliestrogue]

Actually, most info can be found in a combat log, which is also the thing most of those mods get their info from to process them into something more refined like a timer/meter/whatnot.

As for the last part, that made me giggle, as people who like mods can just as easily go: "think of it like an open-book test where you were too stupid to actually buy the book, and then go complaining others scored better..." ;)

Not saying you're stupid, just pointing out that the analogy wasn't quite waterproof. :p

Waterproof enough. Perhaps some people can't afford the book (alot of mods are system hogs), or don't want to give out their personal information to obtain the book (keyloggers), or don't want to have to purchase the book every fricken time there's a revision (game updates that break mods), or...I'll stop there. Apparently your trying to break the analogy was pretty stupid. Not that I'm calling you stupid. ;)

You're right about the combat log. Most of the information that mods use is obtained using the combat log. Sooooo....why do we need mods? Oh...to make the game easier. Maybe people who are insisting on mods just aren't good enough players. In that case, I just feel sorry for you. Perhaps a few reading courses?

There is absolutely NO reason to put the community through the headache that is Mods and addons. If you can't deal with an even playing field where skill is the only advantage I can name a few other games you might enjoy. Don't ruin WAR. :mad:

[Nerissa]

Waterproof enough. Perhaps some people can't afford the book (alot of mods are system hogs), or don't want to give out their personal information to obtain the book (keyloggers), or don't want to have to purchase the book every fricken time there's a revision (game updates that break mods),

1. System hogs? Maybe in the beginning when the coding is unoptimized. I'm running about.... say 60 unique mods in WoW at the moment, and I've never had a single problem with it. I'm not on some super machine either. (Unique mods meaning I don't count modules of the same mod)

2. There are reputable sites to download from. And by god, if you're dumb enough to try to 'install' a mod that is using an executable, you deserve whatever nasty trojan you're about to slam onto your system. LUA mods don't need to be installed using an executable install program. You simply put the files into the directory specified, load up the game, and tell it which mods to load.

Which puts the only risk of keylogger on the sites themselves. Tell me... why would a place like Curse want the bad reputation that would come with the site itself being infested with keyloggers?

3. Only legitimate concern of the bunch, but if you use mods, you've already agreed to this.


Some of the smallest coding changes can really mess with mods.

[Saracen]

I agree, most of these things have no place in a PvP centered game---but they were necessary evils in WoW. Going into high end raid dungeons without CTRAID was like trying to do the same thing without ventrilo or TS.

[c_vadnais]

I agree with your thinking, but I think an FPS requires more thinking and teamwork than you think. Not games with fast-paced deathmatches, but team games in leagues/clan matches.

Well im not saying they're all simple, but, it requires much more thought to play an RPG where you have to go " should I use X ability or Y, because X has its benefit to the group but I may die, or should I use Y ability to make sure I live and sacrifice the groups safety?:confused:" (example of course) whereas with FPS's you're going "should I shoot X character in the face, or Y character.:twisted:" :-P

[Molnu]

Well im not saying they're all simple, but, it requires much more thought to play an RPG where you have to go " should I use X ability or Y, because X has its benefit to the group but I may die, or should I use Y ability to make sure I live and sacrifice the groups safety?:confused:" (example of course) whereas with FPS's you're going "should I shoot X character in the face, or Y character.:twisted:" :-P

Just saying, there's points where you have to strategize which paths to take, whether to push or not, whether to spray if you get flashed or just hunch in a corner, whether to throw a nade and when, etc. etc.

But that's derailing the thread. Just saying there's more to it than "run and gun"

[checkthis5000]

A few months ago I would have agreed with the OP on this subject, but after checking out a lot of the legal mods that are just displaying information in a different way, I think they're awesome, and they allow the player to display things and play the game how they see fit.

For me a lot of the mods have so much information that it hurts my gameplay, so I have to find ones that are subtle, and only display things that are helpful to me.

Since all of these things are displayed anyway, just in a not-so-obvious way, I don't consider this cheating or gaining an advantage over other players. Especially since all of the mods are free.

[Mo0rbid]

A vast majority debating modifications doesn't even have a basic understanding of scripting or programming. if you "restrict" mods to only cosmetic ones I guess that you mean only changing .tga files for example. But if you want to create a very dynamic mod that's still only cosmetic but allows for great deal of customization (Pitbull for example) you have to allow the same mods that "plays the game for you" (i'm yet to find these)

[airtonix]

Have to say many of the anti-mod people here are fairly ignorant.

What they may be thinking of is something called wowglider.

And there is basically nothing that can stop it. It's not a mod...it is a third party program.

but I digress, being a healer I loved using such mods as :
clique, oUF, oUF_incomingHeals, bongos, bagnon, auctioneer, tomtom, postal just to name the tops ones

I really loved using clique to assign spells to various ctrl/alt/shift & mouse button combos, ie prayer of mending ctrl + right mouse button, circle of healing ctrl+shift +left mouse button. i then use these combos on the unitframe of the player(s) I need to cast on.

Also love the tradeskill mods, the bag mods the chat mods the map and quest mods...

more mods ..love em. without em the game feels like facism. and i do not wish to pay subscription fees to feel like I am in 1945 nazi germany.

[Molnu]

more mods ..love em. without em the game feels like facism. and i do not wish to pay subscription fees to feel like I am in 1945 nazi germany.

So all games before WoW came out and most games after WoW came out were fascist? You realize almost no MMO's have ever had a mod system.

[Kaelten]

I just had this conversation the other night, and I disagree with the OP about not allowing mods.

I love the mods in warcraft, they strike a delicate balance between enhanced functionality and skinning.

I understand the camp that doesn't want mods to imbalance the game and I whole heartily agree. However if you limit yourself to pure aesthetic changes you're talking about pure texture swapping. I much prefer wow's system where I can have my bags sorted, make sure I don't get ripped off at the ah, and know what effect a item will have on my health in a glance.

The issue here is that to maintain this level of balance it puts a lot of pressure on the developers. They're the only ones who can maintain it, its just human nature (especially in large enough groups) to push the envelope. The easy way out is to not allow them at all, but I just feel that'd be a shame. For me personally wow wouldn't have been half the game its been without them. I'd never have gotten past 6 months but instead I've stuck around since beta.

Just my two cents.


Kaelten

[Whiskeyjack]

I just had this conversation the other night, and I disagree with the OP about not allowing mods.

I love the mods in warcraft, they strike a delicate balance between enhanced functionality and skinning.

I understand the camp that doesn't want mods to imbalance the game and I whole heartily agree. However if you limit yourself to pure aesthetic changes you're talking about pure texture swapping. I much prefer wow's system where I can have my bags sorted, make sure I don't get ripped off at the ah, and know what effect a item will have on my health in a glance.

The issue here is that to maintain this level of balance it puts a lot of pressure on the developers. They're the only ones who can maintain it, its just human nature (especially in large enough groups) to push the envelope. The easy way out is to not allow them at all, but I just feel that'd be a shame. For me personally wow wouldn't have been half the game its been without them. I'd never have gotten past 6 months but instead I've stuck around since beta.

Just my two cents.


Kaelten

ima just quote this man for posterity cause i couldnt poissibly have said it better gold star for you good sir

before wow i was way against wow but playing wow for so long made me appreciate the efforts these guys put in these mods .To limit to texture swapping limits the game's evolution just look at wow most is not all the ui improvement were originally mods

[Bakebehe]

Kaelten

Much thanks for your work on Ace. This is one guy who knows what he's talking about.

[Molnu]

I perfectly agree with mods like the Auction House tracker thing (totally forgot the name... it's been 2 years), and visual mods like organizing your bags or whatever.

I don't want threat meters or other gameplay-changing mods is all. That's my stance on it and I'm not budging. A mod that, without it, would cause you to make a different choice in battle, is a no-no.

[Kaelten]

I perfectly agree with mods like the Auction House tracker thing (totally forgot the name... it's been 2 years), and visual mods like organizing your bags or whatever.

I don't want threat meters or other gameplay-changing mods is all. That's my stance on it and I'm not budging. A mod that, without it, would cause you to make a different choice in battle, is a no-no.

The issue with that idea, that I see anyway, is that even showing an organized bag can make me choose differently in cobmat, as if I can find the damnable potion, I'll be more likely to use it! Or even something as simple as a party list that gets sorted by least health. Hell, if I just was reminded of how much something costs compared to a cheaper option it may make a difference. (Yes I'm being hyper technical to some extent, but I'm just wanting to encourage you to be a little more openminded :))

Threat meters are, given, a little more extreme, but they've shown to blizzard that perhaps adding in a more simplified version of them is a good idea. But i'd imagine that there version would be a more singular instance of whether or not you're about to pull agro.

For me personally I just wish that guilds wouldn't be so adamant about requiring there members to do something with regards to mods. However, it honestly doesn't effect me, nor my enjoyment of the game when someone chooses to use a mod. I'm not sure I see why it'd effect yours either, at least past a basic philisophical level.

[Molnu]

I feel like I am forced to use certain mods when I really hate clutter on my screen.

I like having almost nothing on my screen, and just enjoying the visuals and fighting people.

When you introduce mods that help with a fight, such as visual mods that put things on your screen to bring your attention to things, mods that show some numbers and tell you when to stop or keep DPSing, mods that show what other players are doing (another player healing your same target), and other things I could go on and on, then you basically force me to use those mods to stay at the same advantage level in regards to information handling. No matter what you say, mods will always give an advantage in a fight scenario, and especially in PvP. If mods are available, I have to and will use them. Thing is, it takes away from some of the joy and relaxation and makes it more competitive, and attention-demanding. With all those things going on on my screen I can't sit back and hit a few macros and make some decisions for myself based on where the fight is going, I have to keep track of a ton of windows and numbers and visual alerts which requires a lot more attention, adrenaline, and muscle stress, especially on my eyes. Not saying I'm incapable of doing it, or it literally stresses me out or anything, just saying it requires a lot more effort to keep up with a bunch of mods and I'd rather not. Thing is, if they are allowed, I am forced to. Thus, I would rather the game be modless, even if that means taking out the lesser evils that I would be happy to use, such as auctioneer.

That is my stance on it.

[pewpewarrows]

I perfectly agree with mods like the Auction House tracker thing (totally forgot the name... it's been 2 years), and visual mods like organizing your bags or whatever.

I don't want threat meters or other gameplay-changing mods is all. That's my stance on it and I'm not budging. A mod that, without it, would cause you to make a different choice in battle, is a no-no.

Every mod, then, is a no-no in your book. Take one of the simplest (and most-used) mod category: action bars. If you have the ability to add new action bars to your screen, you can see what spells are on cooldown better than other people. If you can move the buttons to the center of your screen, or change their size, you can always know the moment a cooldown is finished, as opposed to those using the default interface who might have to "page" through different bars looking for the cooldown.

The fact remains, however, that it is entirely open. There are no elite group of users who have some special access to the UI more than you. Everyone can develop or use a mod. They are part of the game themself. Not using them, and complaining that you were defeated because someone else was using one, is akin to you not using keybindings while the other person did. Keybindings, like mods, are a part of the game. Choosing not to use them is not an arguement for their removal.

[Molnu]

Every mod, then, is a no-no in your book. Take one of the simplest (and most-used) mod category: action bars. If you have the ability to add new action bars to your screen, you can see what spells are on cooldown better than other people. If you can move the buttons to the center of your screen, or change their size, you can always know the moment a cooldown is finished, as opposed to those using the default interface who might have to "page" through different bars looking for the cooldown.

The fact remains, however, that it is entirely open. There are no elite group of users who have some special access to the UI more than you. Everyone can develop or use a mod. They are part of the game themself. Not using them, and complaining that you were defeated because someone else was using one, is akin to you not using keybindings while the other person did. Keybindings, like mods, are a part of the game. Choosing not to use them is not an arguement for their removal.

Read the post above this before you go on about me not wanting to use them.

[r3dm4n]

I, for one, enjoy the customization and change in game play that comes with a variety of mods.

WAR should limit the extent of the addons to keep them from being "required" but at the same time allow for creative freedom and nifty features.

[Llamazerker]

I perfectly agree with mods like the Auction House tracker thing (totally forgot the name... it's been 2 years), and visual mods like organizing your bags or whatever.

I don't want threat meters or other gameplay-changing mods is all. That's my stance on it and I'm not budging. A mod that, without it, would cause you to make a different choice in battle, is a no-no.

why??

if you dont like the idea of a dps meter, threat meter dont use them. no ones forcing you. for those of us who like to take the game to that level we should be able too. i dont like vent, infact i dislike everything about it. i refuse to buy a mic. if mythic decided all the sudden to prevent a vent chat, or make it a bannable offense i would be horrified.

just becuse you, or someone else doesnt like something and in theory you could be put in a position of using one, or being measured by one doesnt mean everyone should be forced to conform to a more dull style of game play.

i'm sorry if i came off a little troll like, but its hard not to be when i see something that looks like someone deny others a freedom in the name of preserving one of there own. lobbying the forums for changes can have as powerfull effect in mmos.

[pewpewarrows]

Read the post above this before you go on about me not wanting to use them.

Fine. If you don't want any mods for fear of them giving even the slightest advantage, then you advocate Mythic not allowing you to use any voice-communication software alongside the game (such as Ventrilo or Teamspeak). No keyboards or mice should be allowed other than the default. There should be no customization options to the in-game interface either, such as the ability to move an actionbar. Skinning would allow you to remove some of the graphics off of the interface, which would allow you to see more of the game field than other people, so that's out the window. While you're at it, lock everyone in to the same resolution. It's not fair if one person can play widescreen and see what enemy spells are being cast in more detail, right? Right?...

Modern day MMOs let you mod the interface. I'm sorry, but that's the bottom line. Everyone is on equal footing, and you're never forced to use them.

[Molnu]

Llama and pewpew, I suggest you go back and actually read this thread instead of the first and last post. Earlier in the thread I argued why I think threat meters and certain mods like Grid are a bad idea. I don't want to repeat myself, so actually read the thread and understand my (and several others') point of view before you go over-exaggerating.

[logicalmayhem]

IMO ide say mods that play your class for you are a bad idear.

that said i think cool down timers and somthing that gives you a message when you can dispell something are fine as well as damage meters and other statistical tools.

IMO all coordinated actions should be done through a macro system that mythic have controll over.

a good example of a macro you realy "NEED" is a petattack/debuff macro for pet classes
eg in wow it was pet attack and hunters mark what ever im targeting coz otherwise you dont have enough keys for all your skills.

what im against in macro that plays your class for you eg spam macros.

say you make a macro that casts some attack/situational attacks so if you happen to block or parry or what ever and an ability becomes avalable. and you dont activly have to think "now i need to cast that" you jsut press the button and it dose it for you

in short anything your character dose without you thinking "i wanna do this now" is a mistake and should be removed. but if you are just making macros to get the most of your keyboard realistate (eg a macro that dose 1 thing targeting a friend and 1 targeting an enamie) is cool with me.

realy spending the time thinking "how can i make my keyboard moor effishent" is some of what you would call "skill" in an mmo. like for me the 1st thing i do before i play is remap all my keys so my mouse buttons and keyboard shortcuts so i can press what i want without thinking this dosnt give me "an unfair advantage" just means i have spent the time to think "how can i play smarter"

/end rant

[Harachel]

World of Warcraft had game flawing issues with mods, to the point where they were actually building content around what mods were available to players. Thus making those mods required to participate in max level activities.

I would agree that mods that just out of the box automate things for players is wrong. However, unlike a few people in this thread that have defined automation as anything that would otherwise change your actions in certain situations, I would only define it as automatic reactive functions. Which means that mods like Grid, NECB, Omen, Combat Alerts, and Proximo, should be allowed. Simply because they do not automate, they inform. The only way that they influence the actions you make in the game is how you interpret the information given to you.

As long as Mythic does not take the path of Blizzard in dealing with mods effect on gameplay, I don't think we have to worry about over powered mods leaving a bad taste in our mouths.

[logicalmayhem]

LOL bots are the only thing I hate.

You guys hate the information the mod gives you then don't use them. It doesn't make the game trivial at all it just tells you when things are going to happen if you not paying attention then your going to die with or without the mod. These are games they are made to be fun not so anoying that you have to quit because you now have a second job. Thats why I quit wow it because to be good at any thing you had to raid atleast three times a week. If we didn't have the mods it would bit 7 times a week because the stupid people would suck more and make it less fun for everyone else. I enjoyed raiding when I had the time. If you ubber leet then don't use the mod. If your the casual guy that doesnt have time to memorize the boss that you have never run, you don't mess it you for everyone else by commiting suicide.

You ubber leet professional gamers out there who think the crappy mods make it easy for everyone are full of it. They make the game fun because GAMES ARE FOR FUN. They how ever are not jobs because I already have one of those and jobs suck.

this was a problem with wow they designed the game around these mods.

i didnt mind the mods that tell you what to do as long as they dont do it for you.

like on w warrior you got a message that says "over power now" when it became avalable and thats cool just not if it casts your skills for you

[Bait]

No offense or insult intended, but I would only believe that if I saw Blizzard say as much.

Without that official acknowledgment, I see it as opinion, much like the opinions that Shadow Priests cannot heal, and other WoW 'facts' that have been disproven.

The way I see it, people tend to fall back on the 'it is required' comment, and dismiss peoples' examples of why it is not required, to avoid recognizing their own short comings or areas for improvement in their own skill.

In other words, it might be required for you and your friends, but not requires for other people.

Again, I am not trying to insult, nor be 'better than thou' -- I might not be able to do it with out the mods either, but I recognize it as my own short comings, rather than saying it is impossible by design without extra-mods.



They did actually state during one of the developer interviews that encounters were designed around the fact that the players have the ability to create custom MoDs. There are some fights that would be next to impossible without some mod that kept timers on abilities. A single player cannot play their class and monitor a boss' 3-4 spell cooldowns while dealing with positioning requirements of the fights.

Some fights require such fast reaction time that, without mods, people would die before they were healed. Example: Illidan, Shadow Parasites in P1/P3... the person that gets them needs to be healed or they will die in about 4-5 seconds. Dark Barrage in P2, can kill a person in 3 seconds or less. So without an add-on that watches for the debuff it would be much, much harder.

Threat meters are practically required for aggro sensitive fights (Voidwalker, Bloodboil, RoS). You cannot 'guess' your level of threat vs the tanks when there are a bunch of random mechanics that randomly low the tank's threat and increase your own (Knockaway, Seeth)

Also, it would be silly for Blizzard to design encounters as if their custom UI didn't exist... to do so would require them to make the fights trivial. The ability for players to create 'bossmods' for encounters allows Blizzard to make incredibly complex encounters that would be next to impossible to defeat without addons.

[pewpewarrows]

Llama and pewpew, I suggest you go back and actually read this thread instead of the first and last post. Earlier in the thread I argued why I think threat meters and certain mods like Grid are a bad idea. I don't want to repeat myself, so actually read the thread and understand my (and several others') point of view before you go over-exaggerating.

I just exhaustively read through the entire thread. My points still stand. Modding the UI is a part of the game itself, just like everything else. If you choose not to keybind (and included feature), don't complain that you were beat by someone using them. If you choose not to use the API or addon capabilites (and included feature), don't complain that you were beat by someone using them. If youre against addons, then you're against skinning, ventrilo, teamspeak, and any user interface options at all. If Mythic allows it through the API, then so be it. Adapt and survive.

As for the point of whether the game should have the functionality to begin with, that's a different ball game. I believe that Mythic should take a cautionary approach. It's much easier to begin with a very restrictive API and gradually introduce new functionality, than it is to give everyone an open sandbox then slowly take away features. Yes, I think some of the mods in WoW take it a little too far.

[Molnu]

You can't really tell me what I'm against and what I'm not. I think vent is something that's replaceable, ie. if you got your guild together in one place and just talked, there's a way to communicate verbally without needing a separate program. Things like bag modifications do not affect gameplay. Even with default bags as long as you take 2 seconds to organize your bags you won't be fumbling around for your potions. Several other mods as well, which I don't feel like going into depth about, don't do anything to modify gameplay. Things like threatmeters and grid bring things to the attention of the player that they normally would not have seen. There's something clearly different between mods like auctioneer that keep track of item prices, and something that brings out the underlying mathematics of a game that were hidden for a reason. MMORPGs, in my opinion, are about covering the math behind the game, and enjoying it for the visuals and imagining what it's like to actually be that person, not the person behind it manipulating the numbers. It's my own sort of 'immersion breaking' and once again, don't play the 'don't complain' card. I clearly said I will use them if they are available but I don't want them available. I prefer FFXI combat / grouping / raids over WoW combat / grouping / raids to put it in a different perspective.

[Yonan]

The thing with mods is, they always go too far.
Subjective. I think Blizzard got it pretty much perfect when they disabled the automation but still allowed the customised presentation of information and playstyle.

Decursive... granted this priotiziation didnt last long before Blizzards team broke it, but the idea that it was allowed to slip through at all baffles me.If this philosophy was taken to everything, we'd never have any development. Cars didn't have seatbelts to begin with - should we not have designed cars? Planes didn't have black boxes to help track problems etc. I do agree decursive was a little much as it was, but it was removed and the MMO community learned a lesson from it - automation (in that context) is bad.

CTRAID: It would tell you exactly when and what to do, or atleast give you a giant notice hey this guys gonna blow up, run to the center. Yea some of it was communication efficiency but still imho it should be up to each individual player not the computer telling them what to do.CTRAID merely customised informaiton display. Anyone who watched their combat log would see the queues, anyone who used an external timer (hello g15) could count between phases etc. It just made the play more enjoyable by letting players concentrate on the action rather than stare at their combat log. Staring at the combat log is not terribly interesting imo, concentrating on smashing a big dragon is much more interesting. All it boils down to is customisation of the way information is displayed.

Cooldown timers: It automatically reminded you when your CD was up which could make the difference in a fight, while there was a good chance without the mod they were not going to use it nearly as quickly.Again, customisation of information display. Its not giving you anymore information than you are already being given, its just presenting it in a different way. Yes, it can make it easier to see - thats great.

Equip macros, this allowed warriors to throw on particular pieces of armor/weapons (the ones that could be switched) so they could use abilitys that require them at instant speed, oh look hes casting, the last .3 seconds boom one button spell reflect, ha no time for you to cancel the spell...A GCD was added to weapon swaps, this is no longer an issue and not an issue when designed well. Another lesson learned for the MMO community, and one no different than any other balance issue, it being UI related is irrelevant.

They really need to restrict how much you can do with macros, and mods should be restrained to ui cosmectic effects,

You want a nicer looking bar or put in a different area, sure go for it. Mods that record our damage output of various abilitys like recount sure, thats harmless, but mods and macros that trivialize your classes difficulty or lower your need for awarness need to be broken. Stop dumming down the challenge of the game with needless scripting. "Lowering your neeed for awareness", in my experience with addons, they allow me to be *more* aware of whats going on, rahter than concentrating on seeing minor cues in the combat log. I agree - devs (like lotro and aoc) should stop dumbing down the games by removing the ability of addons to customise gameplay to suit individual players likes. Automation which DOES NOT exist in WoW addons, and shouldn't exist in WAR addons should not exist, that is about it.

The thinga bout mods is, they allow players to take things for granted not to be aware of there surrondings. They use macros and mods to "lower their time responses" which in all aspects improves their performance, sorry no mods in this game, imho let WAR put out which mods they feel is right for their game. Mods help trivialize pve content, and give unfair small advantages that add up in A RvR/PvP enviroment.Bollocks, addons allow players to be more aware of their surroundings, and to be more immersed int he gameplay rather than concentrating on the combat log which is boring. I'm all for using mods to improve performance times, it allows everyone to perform at their best and enjoy a much more intense game. Mods ALLOW devs to create harder content, ones that have content thats harder than just "stay under the tanks agro" which is all you can concentrate on doing if you don't know where your threat is.


The effect of addons (which everyone can use) on pvp is so far removed from the benefit of having a better computer (that not everyone can have) that its laughable that you'd try to stop people using them, rather than enforce set framerates and resolutions to ensure an even playing field. A good multibutton mouse allows you quicker access to actions by binding them to your mouse, wearing headphones and muting music lets you hear audio cues easier, these should all be encouraged for competetive gameplay to help everyone perform at their peak, addons are no different. At the end of the day addons are an optional way to improve your effectiveness, just as spending more money on a better computer is.

[Haxsys]

This funtionality was removed from WoW before TBC was released. "Decursive" mods simply became lists of people you needed to decurse or highlighted the frame of the player that was cursed.

Incorrect: As of right now, Decursive both the clickable frames, and the "live list"
are fully functional, and have been since TBC.
All you have to do is A.) click the lite B.) have the lites keybound

Thus: You really don't need to know who, specifically, is cursed / magic / poison
All you have to do is click what is lit up, or use the keybind for said position.

Without Decursive: You have to click, or type, keyslap, etc... more than once.
With Decursive: Click the nifty lit up square on the grid (placed where you want it)
One interaction, nothing else required.

With that mentioned, mods like this are what I believe the poster is referring to.
Correct me if I'm wrong, OP.

[Razog Gorripa]

Every mod, then, is a no-no in your book. Take one of the simplest (and most-used) mod category: action bars. If you have the ability to add new action bars to your screen, you can see what spells are on cooldown better than other people. If you can move the buttons to the center of your screen, or change their size, you can always know the moment a cooldown is finished, as opposed to those using the default interface who might have to "page" through different bars looking for the cooldown.

The fact remains, however, that it is entirely open. There are no elite group of users who have some special access to the UI more than you. Everyone can develop or use a mod. They are part of the game themself. Not using them, and complaining that you were defeated because someone else was using one, is akin to you not using keybindings while the other person did. Keybindings, like mods, are a part of the game. Choosing not to use them is not an arguement for their removal.

A player should never be told that to have a fair chance against another player they need to download 3rd party software even if it's .lua thats just stupid. That would be the same logic as someone (taking this as an extreme would never happen example) beating you because they hacked a game and then everyone telling well you can't beat them because you didn't get the hack so go get it. It's the same logic in a more extreme situation.

[Edit:] Thought off a better example to get my point across, Ok: Lets say your both in the exact same gear and have the exact same skill in this hypothetical situation however one person uses mods and the other of their own volition chooses not to believing they don't want the advantage it gives (This is in the case of threat meters) Now the person who uses the mods has an advantage over the person who does not. THIS.IS.NOT.FAIR, What I'm saying is a mod should never give an advantage in combat against someone who chooses not to utilize the modifications.

If you can guarantee me 100% that someone would NEVER be disadvantaged for choosing NOT to use these mods if we allowed mods other then U.I changing.

Then fine I am all for it but if you cannot guarantee that the mod will not give an advantage that the other player can gain without downloading the mod then the customisation of the basic U.I is as far as I believe it should go.

[wtnind]

As long as all your running is a script using what mythic exposes its fine, standalone applications that monitor stuff is bad though. WoW mods had it just about right.

[pewpewarrows]

A player should never be told that to have a fair chance against another player they need to download 3rd party software even if it's .lua thats just stupid. That would be the same logic as someone (taking this as an extreme would never happen example) beating you because they hacked a game and then everyone telling well you can't beat them because you didn't get the hack so go get it. It's the same logic in a more extreme situation.

[Edit:] Thought off a better example to get my point across, Ok: Lets say your both in the exact same gear and have the exact same skill in this hypothetical situation however one person uses mods and the other of their own volition chooses not to believing they don't want the advantage it gives (This is in the case of threat meters) Now the person who uses the mods has an advantage over the person who does not. THIS.IS.NOT.FAIR, What I'm saying is a mod should never give an advantage in combat against someone who chooses not to utilize the modifications.

If you can guarantee me 100% that someone would NEVER be disadvantaged for choosing NOT to use these mods if we allowed mods other then U.I changing.

Then fine I am all for it but if you cannot guarantee that the mod will not give an advantage that the other player can gain without downloading the mod then the customisation of the basic U.I is as far as I believe it should go.

And you cannot guarantee to me 100% that someone would NEVER be disadvantaged because they chose not to use any keybindings or chose to not make "aesthetic" changes to their UI. Even an aesthetic change as simple as being able to move your actionbar or buttons provides an enormous advantage to their default position. This allows you to see ability cooldowns better, as well as placing them at the center of your attention. Being able to move the unitframes, another aesthetic change, can also place them into your attention more, providing an advantage over someone who might not necessarily take notice to the very far corner of their screen. And of course keybindings make for an "unfair" game, because your reaction time is greatly lowered, a necessity in PvP.

Simply put, if you don't want addons because of the possibility of an unfair game, then you are also for the complete removal of keybindings, any UI customization or aesthetic changes whatsoever, and you would also support Mythic banning the use of anything more than a standard keyboard and three button mouse, in addition to banning the use of any voice communitcation software to run alongside the game. All of which are ridiculous notions.

You're never going to have a perfectly balanced playfield unless you lock every player in a room and can control every aspect of their game and environment. Mods and addons are a part of modern-day MMOs, just as much as tweaking the volume in-game or adjust a bound key here or there. If they are a part of the game, don't complain that you were beat because someone else was using them.

As for the point of whether the game _should_ have modding capability to begin with, it's a natural progression in the way massive multiplayer games are made. Players all want different things, and want to enjoy their own experience. Mods allow players to customize the game more to their playstyle, and thus have a more enjoyable time because of it. The end point of playing video games is to have fun. Let them eat cake.

[Razog Gorripa]

And you cannot guarantee to me 100% that someone would NEVER be disadvantaged because they chose not to use any keybindings or chose to not make "aesthetic" changes to their UI. Even an aesthetic change as simple as being able to move your actionbar or buttons provides an enormous advantage to their default position. This allows you to see ability cooldowns better, as well as placing them at the center of your attention. Being able to move the unitframes, another aesthetic change, can also place them into your attention more, providing an advantage over someone who might not necessarily take notice to the very far corner of their screen. And of course keybindings make for an "unfair" game, because your reaction time is greatly lowered, a necessity in PvP.

Simply put, if you don't want addons because of the possibility of an unfair game, then you are also for the complete removal of keybindings, any UI customization or aesthetic changes whatsoever, and you would also support Mythic banning the use of anything more than a standard keyboard and three button mouse, in addition to banning the use of any voice communitcation software to run alongside the game. All of which are ridiculous notions.

You're never going to have a perfectly balanced playfield unless you lock every player in a room and can control every aspect of their game and environment. Mods and addons are a part of modern-day MMOs, just as much as tweaking the volume in-game or adjust a bound key here or there. If they are a part of the game, don't complain that you were beat because someone else was using them.

As for the point of whether the game _should_ have modding capability to begin with, it's a natural progression in the way massive multiplayer games are made. Players all want different things, and want to enjoy their own experience. Mods allow players to customize the game more to their playstyle, and thus have a more enjoyable time because of it. The end point of playing video games is to have fun. Let them eat cake.

I'm talking in regard to Mods if mythic enabled key binding then that is not 3rd party software and anyone would have the option to do it without having to download 3rd party modifications which is what I'm complaining about. I hate the idea that someone is disadvantaged because they chose not to utilise 3rd party software or code etc,. And while I don't like the idea of ventrilo or teamspeak I can and do admit that it's a pretty standard piece of software and banning it would cause a very bad backlash from a majoritiy of the player base.

[CrUsHeR]

i think you played too much WoW.

WAR mods will only allow you to modify the UI to some extent, they will never allow a mod to play the game for you or reveal information that would give you an advantage.

[Pangscar]

I'm talking in regard to Mods if mythic enabled key binding then that is not 3rd party software and anyone would have the option to do it without having to download 3rd party modifications which is what I'm complaining about. I hate the idea that someone is disadvantaged because they chose not to utilise 3rd party software or code etc,. And while I don't like the idea of ventrilo or teamspeak I can and do admit that it's a pretty standard piece of software and banning it would cause a very bad backlash from a majoritiy of the player base.

Mods are not "3rd party" anything, they are not programs or software. Mods are made by players, for players. You use that term but I don't think you really understand what it means. There is no dis-advantage when mods are available to everyone. Mods do not play the game for you. Thinking otherwise is to be ignorant of the facts.

[CrUsHeR]

Mods are not "3rd party" anything, they are not programs or software. Mods are made by players, for players. You use that term but I don't think you really understand what it means. There is no dis-advantage when mods are available to everyone. Mods do not play the game for you. Thinking otherwise is to be ignorant of the facts.

you couldn't be any more wrong.

addons in WoW used to be an arms race like never before. before they nerfed the auto-targeting of addons, you just needed to spam 1 button after receiving an alert by an addon that someone in your raid was debuffed and you would cure it.
compared to
- looking at the UI to keep an eye out for debuffed players (which wasn't even possible without a raidframe addon to show all debuffed players)
- target the player
- choose the adequate cure spell and use it.

and still until today there's an endless list of addons that show you things and do things for you that weren't even possible without those addons.


what you are saying is "it's your own fault that you don't download those addons" and that is just wrong. i might go as far as comparing it to "nuclear weapons are available to everyone, your fault if your country gets invaded by the USA", but i won't.
WoW addons just went way too far, and i'm greatly looking forward to WAR where you can play the game out of the box just as good as everyone else without major disdvantages.

[Pangscar]

eh, this debate is endless and pointless. Use mods or don't use mods. Speak intelligently about them or don't, all choices we have.

Using outdated facts and anecdotes of how it USED to be in OTHER games is simply failed logic and a sign of a weak argument.

But fact remains WAR will have mods, the majority of players will want them and use them and they don't, can't play the game for you.

[CrUsHeR]

eh, this debate is endless and pointless. Use mods or don't use mods. Speak intelligently about them or don't, all choices we have.

Using outdated facts and anecdotes of how it USED to be in OTHER games is simply failed logic and a sign of a weak argument.

But fact remains WAR will have mods, the majority of players will want them and use them and they don't, can't play the game for you.

yes and if everyone would know these things, the thread would not have been opened in the first place.

/grats on owning yourself by questioning our intelligence.

[Retina]

Let's go point by point:
Mods are not "3rd party" anything,
If they are not written or provided by the developers (ie first party), then they are by definition "third party". Though Wikipedia is not always the best source for any info, this description of what third party software is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_software_component) is a very good one.
they are not programs or software.
They are written in Lua (http://www.lua.org/) in both WoW and WAR. Lua is a programming language and are in fact code. They are not "stand alone" software, but they are in fact software.
Mods are made by players, for players.
...and therefore "third party".

[Hibbert]

If WAR implemented every function currently available to WoW UI mods, what mod could give an unfair advantage? The two mods I see come up most often are threat meters/boss mods and enemy cast bars. Threat meters and boss mods do not play the game for you. I remember plenty of people pulling aggro with threat meters, or getting hit with boss attacks even with massive text telling them what to do to avoid it. Also I've known people in my old WoW guild that didn't run either of these mods. They were capable of doing good DPS without overaggroing, and knew what to do during boss fights.

Enemy cast bars are a bit trickier, but ultimately they don't really do anything players couldn't do on their own. Given a few days of practice, I'm sure someone could learn to pay enough attention to the combat log to watch for important spells to counter, and learn those spells' cast times. I suppose you could say that makes someone more "skilled" than someone that just uses a mod to acheive the same effect. I'd say it's more like somoene that refuses to use a calculator to figure simple trig values, and then complains about having to memorize the sin/cos/tan tables by rote.

Personally, I have faith that Mythic will give mods as much leeway as they want, and no more. They've seen what players can do with loopholes(I'll agree 100% that Decursive mods went too far). If they decide that threat meters or enemy cast bars go too far, it's a simple matter to limit the amount of information the combat log will provide.

[Razog Gorripa]

Mods are not &quot;3rd party&quot; anything, they are not programs or software. Mods are made by players, for players. You use that term but I don't think you really understand what it means. There is no dis-advantage when mods are available to everyone. Mods do not play the game for you. Thinking otherwise is to be ignorant of the facts.<br />
<br />

I use the term third party in the sense that it is not mythic nor this specific player I was using for the examples, Mods are something that mythic does not patch in them selves into the game and while players make it not all player's use it.

And there is a disadvantage because you are forcing people to download files that are not made by the company in this case mythic to stay competitive with others. That is not fair. It's like your fighting someone and you choose to use a gun and they use their fists because they feel honor bound to for some reason, would that be a fair fight? Somehow I doubt it would.

[Yonan]

And there is a disadvantage because you are forcing people to download files that are not made by the company in this case mythic to stay competitive with others. That is not fair. It's like your fighting someone and you choose to use a gun and they use their fists because they feel honor bound to for some reason, would that be a fair fight? Somehow I doubt it would.

The disadvantage is far smaller than that of running a nice high powered dual screen setup with vent, a 10 button mouse and a g15 compared to the minimum specs. Should we artificially limit everyone to the minimum specs to keep it even? Everyone has access to the addons , not everyone has access to the computer gear.

[Razog Gorripa]

The disadvantage is far smaller than that of running a nice high powered dual screen setup with vent, a 10 button mouse and a g15 compared to the minimum specs. Should we artificially limit everyone to the minimum specs to keep it even? Everyone has access to the addons , not everyone has access to the computer gear.

That is out of the control of the company and would be a suicidal move in a competitive market. All I've been trying to state is that a mod should never give such an advantage that someone without the mod is substantially disadvantaged.

The argument that they can download it to is a flawed one the logic behind would be the same as you accusing someone of having a modification to the game files that boosted their stats to ungodly levels, now if its a mod everyone could get it but no one would support it except a very small minority.


Admittedly this is taking the logic to the extreme but I'm trying to use the extreme example to emphasize my point.

[Yonan]

That is out of the control of the company and would be a suicidal move in a competitive market. All I've been trying to state is that a mod should never give such an advantage that someone without the mod is substantially disadvantaged.
Just as suicidal as a company in the MMO market not taking the best from previous MMOs when making a new one, which includes the level of customisation of the interface from WoW.

The argument that they can download it to is a flawed one the logic behind would be the same as you accusing someone of having a modification to the game files that boosted their stats to ungodly levels, now if its a mod everyone could get it but no one would support it except a very small minority.

Admittedly this is taking the logic to the extreme but I'm trying to use the extreme example to emphasize my point.
Its not an example, its an analogy and a very flawed one at that. An example is citing Decursive or KTM from WoW, or the bot programs from AC that so riled up the LotRO peeps.

[Razog Gorripa]

Just as suicidal as a company in the MMO market not taking the best from previous MMOs when making a new one, which includes the level of customisation of the interface from WoW.


Its not an example, its an analogy and a very flawed one at that. An example is citing Decursive or KTM from WoW, or the bot programs from AC that so riled up the LotRO peeps.

Ok Im gonna stop arguing since it is quite obvious I can't change your opinion nor you mine.

[Marr]

I am in complete agreement with the OP. Why can't people just leave things the way they are? If you don't enjoy the UI or whatever send feedback to the people who make it. That way if an improvement can be made everyone gets it, rather than the people who choose to download it. If it were my game I wouldn't allow any 3rd party stuff or mods.

On the same topic, say I made my own UI and it was really poorly made with large graphic files. Someone with a high end computer uses it and loves it, but someone else with a lower end computer uses it, loves it but it is too poorly made so it slows his whole computer down while playing. I wonder if that would cause him to "rubberband" and things during rvr... almost like latency? Anyone know?

[Yonan]

I am in complete agreement with the OP. Why can't people just leave things the way they are?
That philosophy would leave the human race wearing animal skins, living in caves and having a life expectancy of 30 years. Making things better is what we do. By the way, "the way things are" currently is to allow players to mod their ui (The WAR devs have stated this is so) - by your own logic, shouldn't you just leave it this way?

If you don't enjoy the UI or whatever send feedback to the people who make it. That way if an improvement can be made everyone gets it, rather than the people who choose to download it. If it were my game I wouldn't allow any 3rd party stuff or mods.
People have been screaming in lotro since release for fixes to the Auction system - devs hadn't improved it last I checked, leaving it far inferior to the interface provided for the AH in WoW thanks to Auctioneer. Blizzard lets players do the legwork and then implements the best ideas for everyone to use which I think is a great system. It saves Blizzard money, lets players indulge their creative side and help improve the game. Extra action bars, scrolling combat text and more were added to the default UI after players made addons to do it.

On the same topic, say I made my own UI and it was really poorly made with large graphic files. Someone with a high end computer uses it and loves it, but someone else with a lower end computer uses it, loves it but it is too poorly made so it slows his whole computer down while playing. I wonder if that would cause him to "rubberband" and things during rvr... almost like latency? Anyone know?
If it could do that, there would be other ways to do it and/or it would soon be fixed by Mythic. People unplugging their ethernet cable or compressing things in a couple rars could also simulate the effect - addons being able to do it is irrelevant.

[Utakata]

I just want to say that you guys keep arguing on the extremes - "no mods at all" or "all mods forever".

I think mods should be allowed but limited. I don't agree that aesthetic UI changes can "give an advantage" in general. I think each individual player may or may not find an advantage in having, for instance, skills near the middle of his/her screen to click. Personally, I would take my hotbars completely out because I hotkey everything and memorize it, I don't want to see crap on my screen at all - I take out as much as possible.

The point is, different people have different tastes and certain UIs can lend to an advantage or disadvantage to that particular player. A UI mod you call an "advantage" could just as easily make me utter crap at the game.

That said, I don't think aesthetic changes are really an advantage and should not be treated as such.

Mods like WoW's Grid, or (what used to be) Decursive, and also Threat Meters, are all mods I disagree with. I won't talk about why, because it has been discussed to death already earlier in this thread.

And I don't agree with your argument about "advancing" the gaming community with crutch mods like Grid (*a sprinkle of opinion*). Just as in real life, you can't always advance things without terrible side effects. Look at new forms of fuel in production such as soybean oil. Sure they can replace gas in a much safer and efficient way, but what about all the side effects? Could people afford it? What would happen to gas companies and our entire economy centered around them? What would happen to all the vehicles that currently run on gas? What would happen if you kept some of these vehicles and "weened" people onto more efficient and safe options? Gas stations would be shutting down left and right and it would be extremely inconvenient to fuel your car up if you couldn't afford state-of-the-art technology. What about people in rural areas who continue to rely on gas because the new technology hasn't reached them, and they go to a city and there are no gas stations?

I could go on, but really the point is, with advancement comes a lot of complications and you'd be naive to overlook them. Sure mods make for a more efficient game, and to some, more fun, but you can't discount everyone else's opinion on the basis of efficiency.

[Yonan]

I just want to say that you guys keep arguing on the extremes - "no mods at all" or "all mods forever"... I think mods should be allowed but limited.
That is the stance of most mod advocates too, very few are "all mods forever" (which would allow Decursive and in-game bots due to automation). The question is where to draw the line - stopping at automation as WoW has (and most mod advocates prefer), or further where you cut out as you'd prefer Grid and Threat Meters.

Hopefully Mythic analysed it rationally as they have every other aspect of the game. They will weigh up whether Grid gives healers an unfair advantage - or whether it simplifies the healing role allowing them to have more fun DPSing. Same with threat meters, does it trivialise boss encounters or does it virtually remove threat as a mechanic and force the dev to design more interesting encounters? LotRO and AoC do not allow such addons and their encounters are very lacklustre compared to WoWs.

I could go on, but really the point is, with advancement comes a lot of complications and you'd be naive to overlook them. Sure mods make for a more efficient game, and to some, more fun, but you can't discount everyone else's opinion on the basis of efficiency.
There are definitely potential complications and any company that implements a system without proper testing and maintenance to ensure it still meets their goals through its lifetime deserves the failure on its hands. WoW ran into such complications and to the majority of the playerbase overcame them.

[Phayde]

Well i agree with some of what you said some of it i dont. I personaly always hated castsequence players. castsequence wasn't a mod though, it was a macro command. So was spell reflecting and everyone had access to it no download required.

But things like itemrack were irreplaceable as a tank, unless you like sitting around for 5minutes while the tank equips one of his 5 sets.... Some mods that do things that are tedious faster, for example switching gear, i have no problem with. Or things like cartographer that marked mining points instead of to have a pen and papper map on your wall are nice.

[Khazic]

Play to win.
Don't exploit.

Where's that article....
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

[Nerissa]

Where's that article....
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

I hate that article, because that philosophy just doesn't stand up when the game in question is updateable.

[royale]

I'm just posting to say that I agree with Nerissa's PoV.

Something like Grid, I use that as a healer to keep track of how many hots people have on them, who needs Fortitude/buffs, how long of a duration they have remaining, who is being targeted, what level's people health is at, etc. I could get all that information in the same way with the default UI, but it would take up an incredible amount of screenspace and look like crap. So, that's why I love the addon.

Mods like Grid make the game more fun for me. Yeah, I could strain my eyes trying to decipher Blizzard's ugly as sin cluster**** raid UI all night long, and maybe that's the way the game is "meant" to be played in some of your poeple's views. But I'd rather install something like Grid so that I can consolidate all the information I need in one place and have some room left for actual game graphics.

WoW's interface customization and everything that's possible with it is one of the biggest reasons that the game has so many players. Everyone is able to customize the interface to to an extent that it fits their preference and playstyle, and other games would fare a lot better if they were capable of the same thing. It's just flat out more enjoyable to play the game when you have all those options.

If all WAR allows for is different window skins I think it'll be a huge mistake on their part.

[chocola]

Agree with the OP because:



Players(especially new ones) will be slacky and wont learn how to play and I really dont want a WOW game where you don't play but freakin WORK.

How can you call it playing when the game itself is ruining the whole concept; the reason why you should play the game.
"boss shoots giant fireball, move to the left"(why would i move? the fireball is coming straight towards me)
"you are being targeted"(my target turns towards me, why?:S i dont understand) "boss goes into frenzy mod"(Oh the boss is becoming bigger and turns red)
"you are exactly 3 metres and 5 centimeters from Peter"(oh darn i cant measure) "You are on Low HP"(FFS are you blind?)
"You are out of mana"(Uh i cant cast spells, but i can see through my mana bar! omg what is happening?)
"Shall I counterspell my opponent know or wait?"(hmm theres still 0.325 seconds to go before he finishes his spellcast, I can cast my fireblast first)
This kind of stuff shouldn't be allowed. Its just silly and makes the playerbase totally slacky and unmotivated to play seriously.
It just ruins the game, people that can't live without these mods, shouldn't play the game at all. FFS. MMOs are probably the most easy games out there. Paying attention to your opponents and environment is what makes these games so fun and keeps the action alive. Being told what to do is just weak and probably fits for a game like WOW(alot of people, dont care if they like it, babies should be able to play it too!). We dont want these players that dont even know how to play the game. Its too frustrated for other people to get stuck somewhere with people that have never really understood the game, because the mods are taking over the tasks they should have done by there own.
I'd like to repeat myself:
Its just silly and makes the playerbase totally slacky and unmotivated to play seriously.

[Lucretius]

Players(especially new ones) will be slacky and wont learn how to play and I really dont want a WOW game where you don't play but freakin WORK.

Wrong.
1) Mods do not teach players how to play.
2) Mods do not increase the amount of effort you put into a game, they decrease it. It's much less Work to play with a modded UI than it is with an unmodded one.

How can you call it playing when the game itself is ruining the whole concept; the reason why you should play the game. Blahblahblah pointless examples:

The reason there are different learning types for different people is because not everyone is comfortable with the same method of infomation input. A mod that transforms a mob turning red and swelling up into a Sound notification, or a text notification is not providing the player any real enhancement... it's just providing the same information he already has access to in a different form that he is more comfortable with. If the game didn't include the ability to transform information into different types it would handicap players whose learning types are not compatible or are less compatible.

Being told what to do is just weak and probably fits for a game like WOW

It's not telling you what to do, players already know what to do... mods just organise the information available so that they know when to do it and can more effectively do the right thing at the right time.

Everyone can see cast bars, you can see someone's hand glowing when they cast a spell... seeing a text notification is the exact same information as hearing a sound or seeing the spell visually just in a different format that some players are more comfortable with.

I'd like to repeat myself:
Its just silly and makes the playerbase totally slacky and unmotivated to play seriously.

If you're not comfortable with transforming the information the game gives you in a more organized and more efficient manner than perhaps it is you who is not playing seriously.

[Llamazerker]

i seriously hope mythic developers dont take the size of this thread as an indication that people are interested in more or less not having mods in warhammer.

i would be heart broken if i didnt get my dps meter, recap, itemrack, enemy cast bar, scrolling combat text and such.

[pewpewarrows]

i seriously hope mythic developers dont take the size of this thread as an indication that people are interested in more or less not having mods in warhammer.

i would be heart broken if i didnt get my dps meter, recap, itemrack, enemy cast bar, scrolling combat text and such.

I agree. The amount of fail in this thread from people who have no idea what they're talking about is hilarious.

[Utakata]

No way there should be an enemy cast bar SCREW THAT. I can deal with threat meters, maybe grid, but enemy cast bar needs to be doused with gasoline and lit on fire then put through a wood chopper.

[pewpewarrows]

No way there should be an enemy cast bar SCREW THAT. I can deal with threat meters, maybe grid, but enemy cast bar needs to be doused with gasoline and lit on fire then put through a wood chopper.

From the Public Events, we know that there is no default UI for an enemy cast bar, and that there is no combat log "Event" recorded for an enemy starting to cast a specific spell. By all indication, this will mean that Mythic will not place an event in their API to allow mod authors to tell whether an enemy is casting or not. That means that, with all the information we know right now, there will NOT be an Enemy Cast Bar in-game, mods or no mods.

(Please keep in mind that the above is subject to change based on what Mythic does and does not end up placing in their UI API.)

[Lucretius]

It doesn't matter, we're still getting the same information.
Spells will come in a variety of different animations, and playres will know what is what eventually. There is no difference in seeing the animation and seeing a line of text that says "++Player is casting X spell." It's just different forms of the same information.

[Whiskeyjack]

No way there should be an enemy cast bar SCREW THAT. I can deal with threat meters, maybe grid, but enemy cast bar needs to be doused with gasoline and lit on fire then put through a wood chopper.


last i checked blizzard and most of the player base found this mod to be crucial to a lot of things seeing as its in the game'sUI now

[pewpewarrows]

last i checked blizzard and most of the player base found this mod to be crucial to a lot of things seeing as its in the game'sUI now

There was a big discussion in either this thread or another over whether there should or shouldn't be an enemy cast bar.

I personally feel that the game would be much more fun and "realistic" without one.

[chocola]

Wrong.
1) Mods do not teach players how to play.
2) Mods do not increase the amount of effort you put into a game, they decrease it. It's much less Work to play with a modded UI than it is with an unmodded one.



The reason there are different learning types for different people is because not everyone is comfortable with the same method of infomation input. A mod that transforms a mob turning red and swelling up into a Sound notification, or a text notification is not providing the player any real enhancement... it's just providing the same information he already has access to in a different form that he is more comfortable with. If the game didn't include the ability to transform information into different types it would handicap players whose learning types are not compatible or are less compatible.



It's not telling you what to do, players already know what to do... mods just organise the information available so that they know when to do it and can more effectively do the right thing at the right time.

Everyone can see cast bars, you can see someone's hand glowing when they cast a spell... seeing a text notification is the exact same information as hearing a sound or seeing the spell visually just in a different format that some players are more comfortable with.



If you're not comfortable with transforming the information the game gives you in a more organized and more efficient manner than perhaps it is you who is not playing seriously.

Why would you watch to your opponent or environment when a big text and warning sounds shows you that you have to move or that you have to cast a certain spell, heck on my mage(WOW) I just spammed _1_ button without targeting any people to decurse my whole raid super fast, same for my resto druid. Try to convince someone that healing is fun, pressing 1 button without targeting for hours watching and waiting for the addons telling you whats happening every night and day for years.
Take for example Gruul's Lair, people have to be in a certain distance from each other to not be hit by a few attacks of Gruul. Theres an addon my guild used, for measuring the exact distance and it even showed what player was too near to you, so you even knew what people you'd had to talk to. I don't think the distance is shown in your combat log or you're the only one.
Heck I can even wait a little more time before I move while I can see how long his casting will take. Casting times are shown in your combat log? Not in mine. The amount of seconds left on cooldown shown in your combat log? Not in mine.

Do you like watching your addons? Do you like the bars to fill up? Do you like to wait for timers to run out? Thats basicly all you have to do with these nifty addons.
Or is it just that you want to succeed so badly and play more to kill bosses to get the best items ever on the server? If you find farming a fun thing to do, gl & hf.
I certainly won't be using these addons, but hey, if you like watching numbers, pop-up texts and flashing lights, i wont stop you.
I and many others, will be playing the game as its meant to be played.

[Utakata]

It doesn't matter, we're still getting the same information.
Spells will come in a variety of different animations, and playres will know what is what eventually. There is no difference in seeing the animation and seeing a line of text that says "++Player is casting X spell." It's just different forms of the same information.

Exactly. You should have to SEE THE ANIMATIONS not be told by some magic voice in your head that someone 50 feet away from you behind you in the bushes in casting a lightning bolt on you. Or however it works. Even if they're right in front of you and you're targeting them, part of the chaos of fighting in not knowing when the spell's going off. it takes half the fun away if you know when the enemy is casting and how long it's going to take at least in my opinion. I seriously, I can't even verbally explain how much of a game killer this would be for me. Sure you could tell me to not use it, every mod advocate says that crap, but if it gives an advantage why shouldn't I use it? Why should a mod give an advantage? I'm not going to get anywhere in this argument though. Either you agree with me or you don't. I seriously hope Mythic lays the hammer on these crappy mods. End of opinion.

last i checked blizzard and most of the player base found this mod to be crucial to a lot of things seeing as its in the game'sUI now

Blizzard doesn't make WAR. If it was crucial it would be in every game, FFXI, CoH, you name it. It's not crucial, not by a long shot. It's a crutch is what it is.

[pewpewarrows]

Why would you watch to your opponent or environment when a big text and warning sounds shows you that you have to move or that you have to cast a certain spell, heck on my mage(WOW) I just spammed _1_ button without targeting any people to decurse my whole raid super fast, same for my resto druid. Try to convince someone that healing is fun, pressing 1 button without targeting for hours watching and waiting for the addons telling you whats happening every night and day for years.
Take for example Gruul's Lair, people have to be in a certain distance from each other to not be hit by a few attacks of Gruul. Theres an addon my guild used, for measuring the exact distance and it even showed what player was too near to you, so you even knew what people you'd had to talk to. I don't think the distance is shown in your combat log or you're the only one.
Heck I can even wait a little more time before I move while I can see how long his casting will take. Casting times are shown in your combat log? Not in mine. The amount of seconds left on cooldown shown in your combat log? Not in mine.

Do you like watching your addons? Do you like the bars to fill up? Do you like to wait for timers to run out? Thats basicly all you have to do with these nifty addons.
Or is it just that you want to succeed so badly and play more to kill bosses to get the best items ever on the server? If you find farming a fun thing to do, gl & hf.
I certainly won't be using these addons, but hey, if you like watching numbers, pop-up texts and flashing lights, i wont stop you.
I and many others, will be playing the game as its meant to be played.

The healbotting and decursive mods were definitely out of line and were ruining the game, anyone can agree to that. However, that was years ago. We're talking about the present-day mod situation, where the API does not allow stuff like that to occur.

And yes, all casting time and cooldown information is available to you as a player. Not in the combat log, but it is available. However, given my above post that outlines that the combat log in WAR does not explicitly state "[name] begins casting [spell]", there is NO WAY to tell if the API doesn't have events for it. That right there eliminates every enemy cast bar and enemy cooldown mod, so that's off the table for discussion.

Using addons is not about us having some sort of fetish to watch bars fill up and down. The VAST majority of mod users want access to addons to clean-up their UI and allow them to play the game in a way that's more comfortable for them. You trivialize and demean everything that addons and mods have done for the gaming community by reducing it to watching "flashing lights." We're keeping the conversation civil, and we'd like the same in return.

As for your final point about the way the game is meant to be played, how on earth do you feel you're qualified to make that decision. No one can say how the game is meant to be played. And guess what? If you open the UI and allow addons, everyone can play the game in a way that's more enjoyable to them. The UI development team doesn't have to try and spend precious time and resources catering to everyone. Stop acting all high and mighty because you refuse to use addons.

[Utakata]

The argument here is this:

From the anti-mod community, namely myself, we feel mods give an advantage where they shouldn't. It's not about making the UI more convenient or appealing to the user, that's perfectly fine, but it seems a lot of mods actually give the player a physical advantage.

If it was all "preference" and such, you could theoretically pair two people together of the same skill class and gear, and have them go against eachother in a duel. The way we, or at least I, feel, is that even if one player is PERFECTLY satisfied with the default UI, and the other player uses mods to clean up and reorganize his UI, the battle should come out even. One player winning by casting a spell half a second earlier, or something of the type. Thing is that's not the case.

Take for example, enemy cast bars. I don't care if they're not in WAR, I want to talk about them.

Yes you can, in WoW, look at the combat log and see them start to cast the spell, you can then use the length of that cast to determine an "enemy cast bar" in your head. Thing is, with a vanilla UI it's impossible to know what spec the enemy is and how long that cast time is really going to be. With mods, you can determine all that and get an exact value as to when the spell goes off. I find that so incredibly unfair, I can't even put it into words. In fact, I'm so speechless at the fact that someone would actually think that's legit, that I'm just going to stop my post here.

My opinions stands. Argument going nowhere.

[pewpewarrows]

The argument here is this:

From the anti-mod community, namely myself, we feel mods give an advantage where they shouldn't. It's not about making the UI more convenient or appealing to the user, that's perfectly fine, but it seems a lot of mods actually give the player a physical advantage.

If it was all "preference" and such, you could theoretically pair two people together of the same skill class and gear, and have them go against eachother in a duel. The way we, or at least I, feel, is that even if one player is PERFECTLY satisfied with the default UI, and the other player uses mods to clean up and reorganize his UI, the battle should come out even. One player winning by casting a spell half a second earlier, or something of the type. Thing is that's not the case.

Take for example, enemy cast bars. I don't care if they're not in WAR, I want to talk about them.

Yes you can, in WoW, look at the combat log and see them start to cast the spell, you can then use the length of that cast to determine an "enemy cast bar" in your head. Thing is, with a vanilla UI it's impossible to know what spec the enemy is and how long that cast time is really going to be. With mods, you can determine all that and get an exact value as to when the spell goes off. I find that so incredibly unfair, I can't even put it into words. In fact, I'm so speechless at the fact that someone would actually think that's legit, that I'm just going to stop my post here.

My opinions stands. Argument going nowhere.

Yeah, except that Enemy Cast Bars are included in the DEFAULT BLIZZARD UI.
And since all indications point to WAR not even having this kind of capability, there's no point in dicussing it. That kind of UI extension won't be in the game, let's move past it.

As to the argument concerning game balance, it is impossible to perfectly regulate the game conditions to always come to an equal fight. If you don't want addons in-game because of the POSIBILITY that they might be unfair, then you also support the removal of any voice communication software like Ventrilo, and in restricting players to only using default keyboards and 3-button mice.

The anit-mod community talks about addons like they're some taboo software running alongside the game that gives you these magical benefits. Nothing could be further from the truth. The API is open to everyone. Every... Single... Player. Everyone has the ability to use it, and everyone is equal. There isn't some special subset of the playerbase that gets more powerful events and functions to use. Everyone is on identical even ground. If you choose not to use it, then it's equivalent to you choosing not to use keybindings, another INCLUDED aspect of the game that everyone is on equal footing. Might you be at a disadvantage by not using them? Maybe. But that's your choice.

[chocola]

The healbotting and decursive mods were definitely out of line and were ruining the game, anyone can agree to that. However, that was years ago. We're talking about the present-day mod situation, where the API does not allow stuff like that to occur.

And yes, all casting time and cooldown information is available to you as a player. Not in the combat log, but it is available. However, given my above post that outlines that the combat log in WAR does not explicitly state "[name] begins casting [spell]", there is NO WAY to tell if the API doesn't have events for it. That right there eliminates every enemy cast bar and enemy cooldown mod, so that's off the table for discussion.

Using addons is not about us having some sort of fetish to watch bars fill up and down. The VAST majority of mod users want access to addons to clean-up their UI and allow them to play the game in a way that's more comfortable for them. You trivialize and demean everything that addons and mods have done for the gaming community by reducing it to watching "flashing lights." We're keeping the conversation civil, and we'd like the same in return.

For this part, I think proven earlier in this topic, we just disagree 100%.
And the mod my guild used, isnt violating, it just takes a 'longer road' to do the same thing. My guild made it and got it approved for not being violating the rules. Even so, other addons were still vastly used by many other guilds on my server and none of these guilds got even a single warning.


As for your final point about the way the game is meant to be played, how on earth do you feel you're qualified to make that decision. No one can say how the game is meant to be played. And guess what? If you open the UI and allow addons, everyone can play the game in a way that's more enjoyable to them. The UI development team doesn't have to try and spend precious time and resources catering to everyone. Stop acting all high and mighty because you refuse to use addons.

There is a reason why Blizzard has been testing their new Raid Dungeons aside from no UI, but also with UI. As more dungeons were added, they weren't a challenge anymore, because simply players made their own UI and made the gameplay tons easier than it was at first. This forced Blizzard to increase the difficulty of their PvE content. Just try to play one of the high-end content without addons, that ain't possible anymore in today's raids because Blizzard adopted too much to the UI community.

[Utakata]

I'm sorry but, this may seem hypocritical, but it's how I feel.

I'm perfectly fine with vent.

I'm perfectly fine with mods like Auctioneer which help a player make good, non-combat choices.

I'm perfectly fine with mods that move parts of the UI like hotbars and HP bars to different locations.

I hate mods that turn the game into an efficiency-fest. I think FFXI combat was one of the most brilliant combat systems, because everyone had to be on the ball and watching peoples' skill effects and communicating. To pull off things like skill chains it took a lot of visual skill and well as communication. With mods it takes away visual skill, and communication. You obviously are fine with that, I am not. I prefer fights to go by visuals effects. If I had my way, there wouldn't be a combat log at all. People would have to learn what spells looked like, and learn their cast times intuitively. People would have to learn how to watch their party's healers, and communicate to make them more efficient as a group instead of relying on a mod. People would have to pay attention to the on-screen danger level of characters if they were healing, they'd have to notice that a teammate in a huge group of players probably needs more healing than someone fighting in a 1v1. People would have to rely on on-screen health bars, and not a huge list of player names and hp bars covering half your screen. People would have to judge by the way a class is playing what their spec is, not be told it. People would have to improve their communication skills and hand-eye coordination and not just their reading comprehension and programming skills.

I don't think vent is in any form an unfair advantage like these mods are. Vent encourages communication which is what I favor.

That said, there is no way I'm playing a different game. WAR looks so amazing in so many aspects, and the developers can't please everyone. If you have your way with crutch mods, whether you think they are a crutch or not, then it will be one thing that doesn't please me, but I will adapt to it anyway.

[Oathbreaker]

Utakata how can u be part of the anti-mod community and condone UI mods? ;)

I agree with you though. A person with mods should not get an unfair advantage over the normal UI. However that statement can be interpreted in so many ways.

I don't use many keybindings for example. My hands just don't fit well enough on a keyboard :D So in WoW I made sure that my UI had all the buttons grouped/sized in such a way that even a semi-mouseclicker like me could get in the top 30 of our arena battlegroup. So in a sense, my mods were giving me an unfair advantage over other (semi)mouseclickers.

Also I use a 30" monitor. Allowing me to put on alot more information on the screen then the average user. With simple UI mods I am therefore getting an unfair advantage over them.

People are different. Some people will keybind everything and be able to use it blindly. Some people are pure mouseclickers. Some people are a mix. Being a keybinder is also an unfair advantage over mouseclickers with standard UI's. Having a large screen with all the information windows positioned around the edges is actually a disadvantage to ppl like me. So if you boil it down it almost anything can be seen as an unfair advantage.

So yes, I agree that mods in wow were crossing the line. Spell detection, arena mods like proximo, . Mods like that wére giving you a real undisputable unfair edge.:cool:

[pewpewarrows]

For this part, I think proven earlier in this topic, we just disagree 100%.
And the mod my guild used, isnt violating, it just takes a 'longer road' to do the same thing. My guild made it and got it approved for not being violating the rules. Even so, other addons were still vastly used by many other guilds on my server and none of these guilds got even a single warning.



There is a reason why Blizzard has been testing their new Raid Dungeons aside from no UI, but also with UI. As more dungeons were added, they weren't a challenge anymore, because simply players made their own UI and made the gameplay tons easier than it was at first. This forced Blizzard to increase the difficulty of their PvE content. Just try to play one of the high-end content without addons, that ain't possible anymore in today's raids because Blizzard adopted too much to the UI community.

The mods that made PvE Raiding easier were not a fault of authors or the fault of the players "forced" to use them. The way Blizzard designed and structured raid boss encounters bred these kind of mods to make the fight manageable. And what has happened as a result of that? You can say what you want, but boss timers and meters are NOT available when a high-end guild gets their world first of new content, or the second kill, or many kills thereafter. If mods like Deadly Boss Mods were essential to raiding, noone would get that first kill. As for things like threat meters, they effectively eliminate threat concerns from the fight. Not having to worry about threat has alowed Blizzard to come up with some of the best Raid Bosses any MMO has ever seen. Carebear content, grinding, and farming aside, I'm sure everyone can agree that WoW's End-Game Bosses are some of the best in this genre of gaming. That level of thrill and adventure couldn't be replicated without threat meters being available to everyone. And because they are become so essential, Blizzard is coding it into their default UI. That's the beauty of addons: they allow the game itself to grow to much, much more than the designers originally intentioned.

[Utakata]

Me personally?

I think WoW raid encounters are crap.

Just my opinion.

I really like WoW's early instances and very early raid content, but everything past Onyxia really became ridiculously stupid in my opinion. You can't please everyone though.

[Llamazerker]

The argument here is this:

From the anti-mod community, namely myself, we feel mods give an advantage where they shouldn't. It's not about making the UI more convenient or appealing to the user, that's perfectly fine, but it seems a lot of mods actually give the player a physical advantage.

.

why shouldnt they? dps meters, recap, proc counters, enemy cast bars, threat meters are all very important to the enjoyment of the game for people who use them. they are statistical mods wich that give as much of a physical advantage as any information. its not doing the job for you, so why is it a bad thing?

what in wow gave a physical advantage? to my knowledge that was pretty much the stuff they didnt allow like purge spamming mods, auto debuffers, and reactionary do this is that occurs.

the only thing outside of those two that comes to mind is itemrack, and that is so important to the role of a hybrid that it would be criminal not to allow it.

[Utakata]

My argument stands.

I believe in a more intuitive system. I think that something that brings out information that's normally hard to read and really shouldn't be read during a battle but rather to reflect on a battle, is bad. That's just my opinion.

[pewpewarrows]

My argument stands.

I believe in a more intuitive system. I think that something that brings out information that's normally hard to read and really shouldn't be read during a battle but rather to reflect on a battle, is bad. That's just my opinion.

If they didn't want the information accessible during combat, they'd lock the combat log whenever you're marked as such, and would reject all events and API calls to it during combat.

[Utakata]

Hopefully they'll do that then.

Just my 2 cents.

[Nerissa]

Just to interrupt all the FUD going on.... what functions are allowed or not are the developer's decision, and theirs alone. Any function, any event or API call that is accessible is LEGAL for use until such a time as the API is modified to disallow that function, event, or API call.



This thread reads like a political campaign.

[Lucretius]

The crux of the anti-mod argument is still completely wrong though.
"Reorganizing the same information available to everyone gives players an advantage."
You're wrong.
Reorganizing the same information available to everyone does not give someone an advantage. If anything it allows those with different learning styles to have the information readily available in a form that is most convenient for them.

[Phayde]

This forced Blizzard to increase the difficulty of their PvE content. Just try to play one of the high-end content without addons, that ain't possible anymore in today's raids because Blizzard adopted too much to the UI community.

Thats not true, we killed illidan after patch day when no mods were working. It's not that hard everything a PvE mob does in WoW has a tell. All it takes to kill PvE mobs is time spent/experience, thats it.... Granted the fight is simplified with addons but i don't believe that helps your arguement. It's not impossible unless you were a clicker constantly watching bars. You don't need mods unless you don't know what you're doing for any WoW raid content.

Some mods were crutches, there was no reason for things like solarion alarm in WoW, if you coldn't see giant lightning bolts streaming out of your character your fail. Proximo definately crossed the line telling you people's spec's talk about trivializing some arena matches.

I don't really care either way, some mods are helpful though.

[royale]

I and many others, will be playing the game as its meant to be played.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Blizzard's UI. It's not a coincidence that the game with the best user interface is the most popular. You can even draw comparisons to other programs, people don't like having to jump through the hoops of a cumbersome failure of a user interface.

No offense, but your statement is probably the most ignorant thing that someone could possibly say when defending their side of the UI argument. Common sense tells me that the designers meant for us to customize the UI, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with the entire framework to allow it.

[Utakata]

The crux of the anti-mod argument is still completely wrong though.
"Reorganizing the same information available to everyone gives players an advantage."
You're wrong.
Reorganizing the same information available to everyone does not give someone an advantage. If anything it allows those with different learning styles to have the information readily available in a form that is most convenient for them.

You can't really argue that.

Take enemy cast bars for instance.

There's NO WAY you could, with your eyes, watch all the things going on in the combat log, and pick out every spellcast and by memory add a little timer in your head for it and know when people's spells are going off. Enemy cast bars "simply reorganizes that information" but it gives a serious advantage. To me, the combat log should be what it is. Hectic and hard to read. That's what combat is, sometimes you fumble and don't notice someone's casting a spell, or don't notice your ally healer is about to drop a 6 second full heal on that target you're dropping a heal on as well. That's part of the strategy and skill involved in the game, in my opinion.

[Llamazerker]

the anti-mod community is a bit to hardcore for me to share their views. to complain about an enemy cast bar giving an advantage is so minimal it should not even be considered. understand that it is not ready information. it actually takes a split second to observe the cast bar, and make an intelligent decision about how to proceed. the same could be done from using some reasoning skill without your eyes leaving the target. an enemy cast bar i would consider to be more like training wheels. if you know the class your up against, and have a good mind for what the classes patterns are then you dont even need one.

in hind sight the notion of limiting mods leaves me feeling like the anti-mod groups underlying concern is that they will be forced to use such mods to feel competetive, or measured by them and therefore is lobbying not to have them.

this is not a fair idea if it is really where the argument stems from. many people like mods, many people feel they are fun, history has shown them to add significantly to the quality of a game, and the valuing of tactics. it would simply not be fair to remove something from the game wich people enjoy having for fear others may have to use it or be measured by it.

[Nerissa]

or don't notice your ally healer is about to drop a 6 second full heal on that target you're dropping a heal on as well. That's part of the strategy and skill involved in the game, in my opinion.


DM: So, you're fighting this group of goblins, there are about six of them and you guys went and charged into their little camp. Bob, what do you do?

Bob: I rush in and smack one of the goblins with my axe!

DM: Ok, great, now Phil, what do you do?

Phil: I cast Fireball at the goblins!

Bob: Wait, noooooooooooooo!




>>

[Utakata]

This is an mmo, fast paced real-time combat, not a pen and paper RPG.

[pewpewarrows]

You can't really argue that.

Take enemy cast bars for instance.

There's NO WAY you could, with your eyes, watch all the things going on in the combat log, and pick out every spellcast and by memory add a little timer in your head for it and know when people's spells are going off. Enemy cast bars "simply reorganizes that information" but it gives a serious advantage. To me, the combat log should be what it is. Hectic and hard to read. That's what combat is, sometimes you fumble and don't notice someone's casting a spell, or don't notice your ally healer is about to drop a 6 second full heal on that target you're dropping a heal on as well. That's part of the strategy and skill involved in the game, in my opinion.

Stop stop stop stop STOP bringing this argument back to enemy cast bars. They are included BY DEFAULT in World of Warcraft's user interface. They are NOT in Warhammer Online, and will NOT be available through a mod or addon.

End. Of. Discussion.

[Utakata]

Stop stop stop stop STOP bringing this argument back to enemy cast bars. They are included BY DEFAULT in World of Warcraft's user interface. They are NOT in Warhammer Online, and will NOT be available through a mod or addon.

End. Of. Discussion.

I don't care one bit. I'm giving an example. I don't care if they're in default WoW UI. I don't care if they're not in WAR. I don't care if the world exploded and all MMOs ceased to exist.

I. Am. Giving. An. Example.

[CrUsHeR]

some guys here don't really seem to have much of a clue about how far WoW addons went.

for example Nature Enemy Cast Bar (or whatever the exact name is) shows you timers for all dimishing returns of your and your team's effects, and with a simple addon like TinyTip you can hover your mouse over every enemy on your screen to see who they target, their hp/mana, buffs/debuffs. without ever having to change your target.

even small things like this give a HUGE advantage, don't even wanna start about proximo/pitbull etc. which clearly automatize a good part of all fighting interaction.

a player without those addons is about on even odds like flying a vietnam war airplane against a 21th century jet.

[pewpewarrows]

I don't care one bit. I'm giving an example. I don't care if they're in default WoW UI. I don't care if they're not in WAR. I don't care if the world exploded and all MMOs ceased to exist.

I. Am. Giving. An. Example.

And your example is completely flawed. You're talking completely hypothetical because there is not a single game out that supports your argument. If there ARE events in the combat log to signal an enemy cast, the game provides you an ECB BY DEFAULT. In games where the event is NOT in the log, there is no ECB, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to add it by addon. You just keep digging yourself a deeper grave, because bringing up ECB is doing nothing but hurt your argument and support addons. Are you really that resistent to hear any point but the exact same one you bring up over and over again, and each time we completely shoot down?

some guys here don't really seem to have much of a clue about how far WoW addons went.

for example Nature Enemy Cast Bar (or whatever the exact name is) shows you timers for all dimishing returns of your and your team's effects, and with a simple addon like TinyTip you can hover your mouse over every enemy on your screen to see who they target, their hp/mana, buffs/debuffs. without ever having to change your target.

even small things like this give a HUGE advantage, don't even wanna start about proximo/pitbull etc. which clearly automatize a good part of all fighting interaction.

a player without those addons is about on even odds like flying a vietnam war airplane against a 21th century jet.

And once again I make the point that the API is open to everyone that's playing the game. The person using those mods aren't some special elite group that have an advtange over you magically. They use an included feature of the game to its max ability. If you choose not to use the API to your advantage, tough luck. That's the equivalent of you not using keybindings and complaining that someone who was using keybindings has an advantage. The ability to bind keys and the ability to use the API are two INCLUDED features of the game. If you don't want to use a part of the game, that's your own choice. But asking that it get removed because you don't use it? That's ludicrous.

[Utakata]

And your example is completely flawed. You're talking completely hypothetical because there is not a single game out that supports your argument. If there ARE events in the combat log to signal an enemy cast, the game provides you an ECB BY DEFAULT. In games where the event is NOT in the log, there is no ECB, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to add it by addon. You just keep digging yourself a deeper grave, because bringing up ECB is doing nothing but hurt your argument and support addons. Are you really that resistent to hear any point but the exact same one you bring up over and over again, and each time we completely shoot down?


In my eyes, you're not shooting it down, and the point stands as a perfect argument for myself.

Obviously you don't agree with me. I'm done with this thread. It's like trying to convince a conservative to suddenly become liberal.

[pewpewarrows]

In my eyes, you're not shooting it down, and the point stands as a perfect argument for myself.

Obviously you don't agree with me. I'm done with this thread. It's like trying to convince a conservative to suddenly become liberal.

Fine, you still think your point stands. You have yet to prove anything though. Mods do nothing to enhance enemy casting bars. You have yet to show a single shred of evidence otherwise. If you don't want to try and defend your point, then you really need to take a nice hard look at why you believe it to begin with.

I don't know why you're abandoning this thread, unless you don't want to deal with the fact that you can't prove your point. It's okay to change your opinion on something. But being completely closed-minded and refusing to listen to anyone else is just silly.

[Utakata]

I'm done with this thread because you're blatantly ignoring the fact that mods give an advantage.

If they didn't, you would be clasping onto them for dear life as you are.

I played WoW vanilla for a long time, and then picked up mods. The difference in PvP ability skyrockets when you start using mods, hands down. I don't like that, not one bit.

And with that, I'm gone.

[pewpewarrows]

I'm done with this thread because you're blatantly ignoring the fact that mods give an advantage.

If they didn't, you would be clasping onto them for dear life as you are.

I played WoW vanilla for a long time, and then picked up mods. The difference in PvP ability skyrockets when you start using mods, hands down. I don't like that, not one bit.

And with that, I'm gone.

Ahh you're finally moving past ECB. Thank you. And I never said that mods don't give an advantage. They give as much of an advantage as someone using keybindings over someone not using them. If you refuse to use them because they _might_ give an advantage, that's fine. That's how you want to play. But asking that they be removed completely is like asking for the devs to remove keybindings because you don't want to use them. Keybindings and an open API are both features to the game. You can't cherrypick which ones you want them to keep or not unless you provide a real reason.

The fact remains though, that mods take information that's always available to the player, and reorganizes it in new or innovative way. There's no magical abilities that are mystically unlocked when you use an addon.

[CrUsHeR]

And once again I make the point that the API is open to everyone that's playing the game. The person using those mods aren't some special elite group that have an advtange over you magically. They use an included feature of the game

nice, now we're back to page 1 of the discussion. what a pointless post.

[pewpewarrows]

nice, now we're back to page 1 of the discussion. what a pointless post.

And I'll keep repeating it until someone offers a real counter-point.

[Utakata]

Okay, I'll bite.

It's not that I don't want to use them. I was perfectly fine with using them in WoW. But I just feel like they shouldn't be there and give that advantage.

I've said many times over different threads, I don't think mods should exist at all, HOWEVER, if they do exist and give an advantage, I'll use them. I'd just prefer that they weren't there.

You can bet your money if some neat mods come out that make me a lot better at PvP or PvE I'll be using them, I just don't think that's a good direction to go with a game and I'd much rather sit on my vanilla interface than spend a bunch of time downloading and organizing mods to make me good.

Keybinding and macros are something that's built into the vanilla UI, and obviously the way the developers meant the game to be played. Mods are created to do things the default UI can't, which is why I am against their creation, but not their use.

Hope you get my point.

[pewpewarrows]

Okay, I'll bite.

It's not that I don't want to use them. I was perfectly fine with using them in WoW. But I just feel like they shouldn't be there and give that advantage.

I've said many times over different threads, I don't think mods should exist at all, HOWEVER, if they do exist and give an advantage, I'll use them. I'd just prefer that they weren't there.

You can bet your money if some neat mods come out that make me a lot better at PvP or PvE I'll be using them, I just don't think that's a good direction to go with a game and I'd much rather sit on my vanilla interface than spend a bunch of time downloading and organizing mods to make me good.

Keybinding and macros are something that's built into the vanilla UI, and obviously the way the developers meant the game to be played. Mods are created to do things the default UI can't, which is why I am against their creation, but not their use.

Hope you get my point.

Yes, I understand this. However, I interpret the fact that they provide an open API to begin with as an invitation that says, "We know our UI doesn't offer everything, so we're letting you improve upon it. Enjoy!" I don't really see how else that could be interpreted. What other reason would they have for opening up their user interface API? If they meant the game to be played without mods, they wouldn't have the feature to mod the interface. How more clear can you get.

[Utakata]

Yeah they opened the API, but to what?

You still don't know.

For all you know, they may only allow aesthetic changes.

We don't know yet.

My argument is mainly to remove the functionality of certain aspects of the API but keep others, namely skin changes, moving the hotbars and skills around, probably an auctioneer-type mod as well. I'm just hoping they don't allow information extraction from the combat log.

If they do, well then I'll be using, maybe even making some mods out of it to give me an upperhand in PvP. I think that's a bit cheap but whatever to get an advantage I guess.

[pewpewarrows]

Yeah they opened the API, but to what?

You still don't know.

For all you know, they may only allow aesthetic changes.

We don't know yet.

My argument is mainly to remove the functionality of certain aspects of the API but keep others, namely skin changes, moving the hotbars and skills around, probably an auctioneer-type mod as well. I'm just hoping they don't allow information extraction from the combat log.

If they do, well then I'll be using, maybe even making some mods out of it to give me an upperhand in PvP. I think that's a bit cheap but whatever to get an advantage I guess.

Ahh ok, I see your point now. I agree that their API should be very conservative at first, and gradually allow features as they see fit later on if the need arises. It's always easier to add features than to take them away ;)

[CrUsHeR]

i "think" you can even move hotbars and UI frames without addons, not really sure though.

however one of the major statements some time ago was that there will be LUA addons in WAR, but addons won't be allowed to automatize actions or play the game for you in any way.

[Czechmate]

Here's my WoW mod experience for PvE, and why I will continue to use them. Try playing a Shadow Priest in a raid. Even with reduced threat talents and blessing of salvation on, if you want to justify your spot in that raid, you have to do respectable dps (over 1k). If you're pulling 1k-1.4K dps or even more as a shadow priest, you'll find most tanks have a hard time keeping aggro off of you. Enter the Mod. KTM (Omen) is a threat meter that takes information you don't normally see and puts it into an easy to read bar graph that says hey, you're doing too much slow down. You're arguement might be something like, "Hey, just don't do as much dps!" in which my response would be, if you lower your dps, you'll severely gimp your mana return to the group, which is the PRIMARY function of a shadow priest in WoW. Why would I bring a class that has to do lousy dps and minor mana regen to avoid aggro pulls when I can bring a dps class that can better manage threat and do more damage? In this case it shows how a mod can make or break a single class in a game.

As for RvR, everyone has access to the same mods so you can't say it adds an unfair advantage. That's like saying people who RvR in groups have an unfair advantage over a solo player because the solo player refuses to join a group. Unless of course someone writes their own mods and doesn't release them to the public, in which case, you still got beat in a game, by someone who's more dedicated to the game than you are. Deal with it.

[CrUsHeR]

As for RvR, everyone has access to the same mods so you can't say it adds an unfair advantage. That's like saying people who RvR in groups have an unfair advantage over a solo player because the solo player refuses to join a group.

no, because joining a group is the backbone of every MMO and comes right out-of-the-box. while researching addons and installing them isn't.

[Utakata]

KTM (Omen) is a threat meter that takes information you don't normally see and puts it into an easy to read bar graph that says hey, you're doing too much slow down. You're arguement might be something like...

...how did people manage before threat meters were developed? I found MUCH more enjoyment before threat meters were developed, and playing FFXI where there were no mods, than I did after I started using threat meters. Personally, I hate them and hope they never make their way into WAR.

If they do I'll grumble a bit and use them, and be told how much DPS to do, and have my gameplay automated... so lame.

[Czechmate]

no, because joining a group is the backbone of every MMO and comes right out-of-the-box. while researching addons and installing them isn't.

So what you're saying is, "I want to be on an even playing ground without having to put in as much effort"

That's all I got out of that.


Also, Utakata, what you call "automated gameplay" others call reaching their maximum potential, something a good number of people strive to do.

[Utakata]

Yeah I know it's reaching maximum potential... by being told what to do.

It takes away an entire dimension of gameplay. When you always know how much DPS to do... then you're just a cookie cutter. You just sit there and don't have to make any decisions for yourself. I think that's retarded.

Then you say "well don't use it" and I say "why shouldn't I if it gives me maximum efficiency?"

It's not the fact of not wanting to use it, it's the fact of not wanting ANYONE to use it.

It defines another level of skill involved in aggro management. And I like that.

[Czechmate]

No one threat meter is going to tell you how to play. It's not going to tell you when and where to use spells or what spells to use. And if the developers make a boss encounter where all you have to do is spam a certain spell or spell rotation over and over, then they aren't very good/creative at making a fight fun. Removing things like a threat meter from the game entirely would force the game to be dumbed down a bit too, that or make the rewards far exceed most anything else. No one is going to want to spend the time finding a large group of players smart enough to do capable damage without pulling aggro to kill a boss and hope everyone does their job right for a couple pieces of loot every so often. Seriously, why would I want to go through that aggrivation when I can get a few buddies and go RvR my brains out and have fun in the process?

[CrUsHeR]

"I want to be on an even playing ground without having to put in as much effort"

That's all I got out of that.

no... i want "skill" to be defined by putting in the maximum effort by me as much as everyone else, not removing 3/4 of the effort plus giving me an ultimate advantage.


you might want to re-read the rest of the thread (and all similar threads) because it would answer your questions / allegations.

[Czechmate]

no... i want "skill" to be defined by putting in the maximum effort by me as much as everyone else, not removing 3/4 of the effort plus giving me an ultimate advantage.


you might want to re-read the rest of the thread (and all similar threads) because it would answer your questions / allegations.

What kind of PvP/RvR are you talking about? As long as nothing is automated I'd like to know what kind of game breaking statistical mods let you dominate pvp/rvr without skill?

[CrUsHeR]

What kind of PvP/RvR are you talking about? As long as nothing is automated I'd like to know what kind of game breaking statistical mods let you dominate pvp/rvr without skill?

do you really expect an answer to that after all this discussion?

we're talking about what we want / don't want to see in WAR, noone knows how much exactly will be allowed for mods in the release version.

we're trying to do our best to state why highly sophisticated addons in general are bad, while you're running in circles about how it would be our own fault not to use every available, possibly overpowered addon.

[Czechmate]

Way to attempt to "be the better man" to continue dodging my statements. There's nothing wrong with mods that show stats, only mods that play the game for you.
Don't argue with people unless you're going to give valid information.

[Utakata]

It's not going to tell you when *clip* to use spells *clip*

Yes it does. It tells you "don't use the spell or you'll over aggro", and "use a spell because you have room to get more aggro".

And if the developers make a boss encounter where all you have to do is spam a certain spell or spell rotation over and over, then they aren't very good/creative at making a fight fun.

I can agree with that.

Removing things like a threat meter from the game entirely would force the game to be dumbed down a bit too

I don't necessarily agree with this. Personally I think the game is dumbed down WITH threat meters because you don't have to learn how to manage your aggro intuitively. Which I find extremely satisfying as a DPS class and it sets the good DPS apart from the bad DPS.

No one is going to want to spend the time finding a large group of players smart enough to do capable damage without pulling aggro to kill a boss and hope everyone does their job right

FFXI had no mods at all and the aggro management was the best part about the game, the only reason I really enjoyed being a DPS class at all. Getting parties that knew wtf they were doing was not hard because everyone was forced to get parties anyway and HAD to learn to work together. By the later half of levels, pretty much every random PUG (I didn't have a guild) was extremely efficient and knew how to manage their aggro and it was an absolute blast.

[CrUsHeR]

Way to attempt to "be the better man" to continue dodging my statements. There's nothing wrong with mods that show stats, only mods that play the game for you.
Don't argue with people unless you're going to give valid information.

the point is, that games like WoW allow addons that provide a tremendous amount of information, which is not accessible without using those addons.
not even to speak of addons that automate actions for you.

please get a clue before posting again.



(unless you want to waste everyone's time again with another "i-have-the-last-word-no-matter-what - post)

[Czechmate]

Utakata, once again I have to disagree with you on threat meters. I guess by your definition they do tell you what to do to a degree. But in order for them to tell you which ability to use based on your threat you have to 1.) know your character and all of his/her abilities and what kind of impact they have on threat in relation to the threat generation of the tank, and 2.) have a capable tank with reliable threat. To me it sounds like if you meet the criteria for number one you are already a capable and skilled player. As for the dumbing down bit, I'll answer it below in my response to CrUsHeR.

CrUsHeR- First and foremost, WoW is a PvE oriented game. I would openly label anyone who says otherwise a complete idiot. They can't balance the game for pvp as is, addons do nothing to "hurt" the pvp. Now as for PvE, WoW does allow alot of Addons that give out information that you can't obtain normally, such as my favorite example, THE THREAT METER! Now then, find me one guild in the WORLD that has killed Illidan, Kalecgos, or even Archemonde without using a single threat meter. I can assure you it won't happen. Why? Because Blizzard tunes these fights to require (for the most part) competant players to do large of mounts of damage in a set amount of time, and where an aggro pull could easily mean a wipe. And you might think, oh well, even if I pull aggro and die and the tank gets his aggro back then its just my loss. Until you realize that your death has caused a significant drop in dps thus making the boss fight that much harder for the rest of your group. The only way these players can push the potential of their dps without going over board is with a threat meter. Something Blizzard has yet to put in their own game. And even though I'm sick of WoW and can't wait for WAR, I, just as many before, must admit, they do an awesome job at PvE, and WAR would do well to copy, yes I said COPY, some of their ideas.

I've posted my valid information, now where's yours?

[Utakata]

Well if fights are built around threat meters it better be in the default UI.

[Czechmate]

EDIT: Misread your comment ^.^
But yeah, I figure it'd probably be easier (and smarter) to let players build the mods they need instead of the dev's trying to predict the features players want/need and making them for the players.

[Utakata]

But if they built their fights assuming players wouldn't use threat meters, then in my opinion threat meters shouldn't be a mod. It's obviously possible to win without it.

In WoW, Blizzard specifically stated that they designed their encounters with the mod community in mind. They said they knew people used threat meters, so they built fights assuming peopled used threat meters, so those who didn't were pretty much screwed. So it should be in the default UI...

[CrUsHeR]

But if they built their fights assuming players wouldn't use threat meters, then in my opinion threat meters shouldn't be a mod. It's obviously possible to win without it.

In WoW, Blizzard specifically stated that they designed their encounters with the mod community in mind. They said they knew people used threat meters, so they built fights assuming peopled used threat meters, so those who didn't were pretty much screwed. So it should be in the default UI...

which pretty much sums up the (failed) PvE side of the game.
now realize the PvP side of the game, which finally boiled down to top-rating arena pvp, and whoever had the best addons to show who is healing who, attacking, cc durations and diminishing returns, plus the shortcuts and macros provided by those addons to minimize player interaction, intelligence, and "skills".

in fact the range of addon functions contradicts the e-sports aim that blizzard wants to turn the game into.

[Drokk]

which pretty much sums up the (failed) PvE side of the game.
now realize the PvP side of the game, which finally boiled down to top-rating arena pvp, and whoever had the best addons to show who is healing who, attacking, cc durations and diminishing returns, plus the shortcuts and macros provided by those addons to minimize player interaction, intelligence, and "skills".

in fact the range of addon functions contradicts the e-sports aim that blizzard wants to turn the game into.Please don't mention real pvp and WoW's arena system in the same sentence (after this one). There is no relevance in that comparison.

[adair]

sorry to bring up a thread that look like it died a few days ago after along time of attivcty.

no one has said anything that made the moders and the non moders happy..

Im shocked that no on has came up the idea that you just take away the programly access to the combat log/combat events with out them most the mods that most of the think are unfair no longer can be programed.

the only good mod that this brakes that I can think of that are valid are the wiki info collecting mods.

this brakes theat meaters, decuse like, seeing people you can not see

stills alows ah mods, bag mods, map mods( ok so map mod can give you a bit of a heads up but not as game requred as other mods as in you must download it to play will) and rpg mods

true you can still make mods that do chains for you but they will have no contexts to triger them so the players will still need to know when you use them.

[Yonan]

The thing is Adair, everyone draws the line in a different place. Some want full functionality including automation (very few imo), some want virtually all bar automation (ie. WoWs system), others want various other things reoved such as grid, threat meters, combat log parsers etc, and others want purely graphicsal changes only.

Its basically personal preference as to what defines the line between enhancing gameplay and reducing it. Most people would agree automation reduces it. Some think grid trivialises healing, others think it makes it more efficient, allowing them to see more of the fight rather than health bars. Combat logs by the same token can be used to min/max more efficiently which some don't like, but some do. And so on ; )

You can't make everyone happy in the addon debate because its personal preference. Here's hoping Mythic chose my side and pretty much copies WoWs current system exactly : p

[Loekii]

The way I see it, this is a role playing game in spirit.

So mods should not increase functionality above and beyong say a Pen&Paper version of WAR.

In P&P games, you basically may not say 'I heal whom ever needs the most healing.' (unless the DM is overly coddling), nor may you say 'I remove what ever curse exists on what even member of my party.

If someone showed up to P&P with a computer and a calculator, I would show them the door. It ruins the game for he rest of the players.

It is like showing up to a basket ball game with a ladder. :rolleyes:

[Yonan]

I *did* bring a laptop to pen and paper RPG - when rules needed clarification, you could use the search function on a pdf of the gamebook to find it much quicker, not to mention have dozens of supplementary rulebooks available, open at the same time if they are necessary. Used properly, a laptop can greatly speed up the flow of the game, allowing players to immerse themselves more in the game and be less concerned about rules (which like it or not are essential to gameplay).

Your ladder analogy is retarded (like most analogies).

[Warbear]

If you're still talking about WoW there, you should realize that the statement quoted is incorrect. It is imperative that people are aware of their surroundings and how they need to act. If they don't know WTF to do, your raid is dead.


You learn these surroundings. Not have them spoonfed to you because you downloaded some 500kb mod.

Using mods is walking a fine line. It's hard to say what 'should' and 'shouldn't' be allowed. The user can control what they use. But when the mods available start to question fair gameplay, a line needs to be drawn.

It's not a black and white situation. There's not a they're allowed, or they're not prediciment. They should be monitored closely, and removed when necessary.

The most I can do, is put faith in the modding community, and ask them to walk that line without breaking it.

What ever happened to pride in pioneering? Those groups or individuals that overcame a situation or encounter with only their skills and reactions to blame for their success? Throw a mod in the mix, that spoonfeeds the info to you, and in some terms, trivialising the encounter or situation to be heavier in your favor, and you lose a lot of that pride. Or so it would seem. Unfortunately, that is not the case... They start to get endorsed, promoted, and even required in some scenarios. People seem to forget that these encounters were implemented without these mods in mind. Doable, with a cooperative group, with the default tools given to them.

[Loekii]

I *did* bring a laptop to pen and paper RPG - when rules needed clarification, you could use the search function on a pdf of the gamebook to find it much quicker, not to mention have dozens of supplementary rulebooks available, open at the same time if they are necessary. Used properly, a laptop can greatly speed up the flow of the game, allowing players to immerse themselves more in the game and be less concerned about rules (which like it or not are essential to gameplay).

Your ladder analogy is retarded (like most analogies).

There is a significant difference between a PDF and a program that does the calculations for you. ;)

It is easy to call things 'retarded', when you don't think things through.

[lordbachus]

CT-raid and things where only possible because of how Blizzard programmed/scripted their bossencounters.... There was no random actions...


About UI mods in generall, I love them... it gives the people the flexibillity to set-up things as they like it... As about healing mods..i love click healing in raids...right click someones health bar and it cast heal spell 1 left click a health bar and it casts heal spell 2 and so on...But i dislike mods that make a calculation that allows you to automatically cast the right spell. Its the challenge of being a good healer to choose the right spell..


Cosmetic only mods will dumb the game down... its the flexibillity of WoW mods thats responsible for 50% of the game's success.

[Loekii]

About UI mods in generall, I love them... it gives the people the flexibillity to set-up things as they like it... As about healing mods..i love click healing in raids...right click someones health bar and it cast heal spell 1 left click a health bar and it casts heal spell 2 and so on...But i dislike mods that make a calculation that allows you to automatically cast the right spell. Its the challenge of being a good healer to choose the right spell..

Exactly.

In your example, you are still actively:


Selecting the Target
Selecting which spell to cast.

It is no different than if you are 'clicking' on the player and clicking on the hot bar, or clicking on the player and using a hotkey, or hot key targeting and hot key spell casting, etc.

It is merely a difference of how you are imputing your decisions (clicks, hotkey, etc).

However, when the computer is selecting either the target or the spell, that is too much. That is playing the game for you.

[Yonan]

There is a significant difference between a PDF and a program that does the calculations for you. ;)

*shrugs* you said taking a computer to a PnP game. If you're to argue that rolling dice yourself is more fun than rolling them on the PC, I'd agree. I'm decent with basic arithmetic though, a stoner (a good bloke btw) I played with wasn't and it might speed things up if he had a calculator around... been a while, can't remember if he did.

It is easy to call things 'retarded', when you don't think things through.
I thought through your ladder analogy and came to the conclusion (quite quickly) that it was retarded. It is retarded because using a ladder is against the rules in basketball. Addons are not against the rules in MMOs - they are implemented intentionally by the developers to, they hope, improve their game. A ladder would be more analogous to an external program such as the radar that plagued daoc which is agianst the rules and spirit of the game, giving users a huge advantage over others.

[Mo0rbid]

you can't make good aesthetical addons without proper coding

[Utakata]

I agree with Loekii.

As for the basketball analogy, it's not about breaking the rules persay, it's about trivializing the content of the game.

[Yonan]

As for the basketball analogy, it's not about breaking the rules persay, it's about trivializing the content of the game.
Which is why analogies in general are retarded, theyre usually misused. The situation is not similar due to large disparities in the situations being compared. I think the one in the analogy breaking the rules of the game and the one being discussed not breaking the rules is a rather large disparity, voiding the relevance of the analogy. Introduction of equipment into IRL games doesn't necessarily trivialise them - lacrosse, hockey, volley ball, car racing etc are games that require the equipment used in them, and are enjoyable games due to that equipment.

[wtnind]

"whoever looks the most injured I will heal" is a perfectly valid P&P instruction. If you play a medic then the it can be safely assumed your character has basic triaging skills and thus its not unreasonable to say that you are going to prioritise those likely to die without medical attention.

plus in tabletop you know how many wounds all your guys have and everything else that is announced (such as which units have standard bearers and what spells your opponent casts). I dont see why dumbing it down for the videogame should be allowed.

[Shadowhellz]

The only mods I really support are cosmetic mods.
Though a mod that explains each item isn't really bad either. So I know what gear I should be looking for when I do PQs, rather than having to google everything to see what's possible.
Alot more efficiant, without really having anything done for you (Well besides it saving you a trip to google)

[Nightbringer1]

Consider CTRAID is crap now and the major addons are BigWigs or DBM, I'll assume you haven't been playing for a while. If that's the case, you should also be aware that Blizzard is considering implementing their own "boss mod" like this. Nothing is official yet, but it is something being discussed. When organizing 25+ people on a boss fight, this type of mod is a god-send considering MOST players can't pay attention enough to actually do anything other than a tank-and-spank fight in WoW.



These people simply do not deserve the gear. Nor do they deserve to be in raiding guild.

I raid with 54 people, there is no mod telling us what is coming up next (that is the raid leaders job, and the resposibility of the raid force to know, understand, and be prepared for. )

I am used to 30 - 45 minute long fights, with 3 - 4 simultaneous dimensions, and a single missed emote or trigger = a wipe. We deal, we perserve, we win, we progress, and we stand united as a guild.

[Adalyn]

What do you define as cosmetics is what I would really like to know. I would see something like a Cast Timer or Enemy Cast Timer as cosmetics, they present information that the Interface already provides in an easier to view format. I'm not saying that I don't agree that some addons would be very obnoctious but that has never stopped the moding community before. Addons will always push the limitations of the API, theres no way around that. The only thing that can really be done is to react afterwards once an addon that does do something overpowered is released.

[Eno]

I'm a little on both sides.


Graphically altering the way you see the game provided information is great...
SWSTATS
MobInfo
Titan Panel

All of them simply give you a source to view statistics of things in a cleaner easier to find location.



Altering the mechanics needed to make an action are not ( Even though I'm guilty of this one right now )

Clique + Grid Is the only one I use that does this.


I use them now because they are available and spoil me and make the game easier for me. A good friend of mine is WAY better than I am at healing because he's never used a mod to do it.

A restrictive allowance to mods I think would be ok. Being allowed to fully customize the look of your UI is nice.

Being able to script
/swap gear
/cast xxx
/swap gear back
/bubble
/hearth

With a single click is not.

Obviously this is a very basic script but this ability to do so and alter the mechanics and speeds that things are setup for the cast ( Remember the old Trinket/Pom/Pyro Macro ? ) and lead to further abuse of the system.

[Eno]

Exactly.

In your example, you are still actively:


Selecting the Target
Selecting which spell to cast.

It is no different than if you are 'clicking' on the player and clicking on the hot bar, or clicking on the player and using a hotkey, or hot key targeting and hot key spell casting, etc.

It is merely a difference of how you are imputing your decisions (clicks, hotkey, etc).

However, when the computer is selecting either the target or the spell, that is too much. That is playing the game for you.

Some of these mods will ( Or used to ) Auto Downrank the spell based on the player health or your mana base.

And one of them would actually PICK the spell for you based on the amount of damage the player was taking ... It used to be called Castparty.


I think the point is that if you allow these scripts to change the mechanics ... most may be innocent but it also allows for people to constantly find ways to hack the game and bypass the mechanics in order to gain advantage.

Also Does Mythic really want to get into the scripting wars with the Community ? I can't imagine how many man hours have gone into trying to change code constantly to prevent XXX mod from being able to do XXX. Especially when there are constant intelligent mod writers always looking for new ways to cheat the mechanics.

[Yonan]

I use them now because they are available and spoil me and make the game easier for me. A good friend of mine is WAY better than I am at healing because he's never used a mod to do it.

Corelation does not imply causality - him not using addons has nothing to do with him being better than you at healing. Some people will be good, bad or somewhere in between regardless of whether or not they use addons to heal. Addons tend to improve the reaction time for healing, and improve the experience for the healer.

All I'll give you is that if your'e used to healing with clique + grid, you'll have a rough time readjusting to the more primitive default ui for healing. That is because clique + grid is better for most people to heal with. There is nothing inherrently more skillful about selecting someone in the default raid frames and then clicking a heal on your hotbar, than shift clicking on grid to do the same thing.

[Talous]

Be warned, my response to this may sound a bit angry, although first off, I'd just like to say, if we could all stop using the word "retarded". It's not being used correctly, and it offends me and other people I know, so yeah, thats that.

Now on to the subject of mods. Who cares? If I want a mod that does everything in the game for me, by all means I should be allowed to have a mod that plays the game for me. There's no use bickering about how mods should work. It's up to you how you play the game, don't worry about other people playing the game.

And to go on the subject of mods being a crutch, They aren't in any way shape or form. Anyone can use them, it's simply their choice to use them or not to. If you think mods are a huge crutch and think that it is too broken to fix, quit the game. If not, either play the game the way it is, or get the mods yourself and quit complaining.

[Destcaz]

Be warned, my response to this may sound a bit angry, although first off, I'd just like to say, if we could all stop using the word "retarded". It's not being used correctly, and it offends me and other people I know, so yeah, thats that.

Now on to the subject of mods. Who cares? If I want a mod that does everything in the game for me, by all means I should be allowed to have a mod that plays the game for me. There's no use bickering about how mods should work. It's up to you how you play the game, don't worry about other people playing the game.

And to go on the subject of mods being a crutch, They aren't in any way shape or form. Anyone can use them, it's simply their choice to use them or not to. If you think mods are a huge crutch and think that it is too broken to fix, quit the game. If not, either play the game the way it is, or get the mods yourself and quit complaining.
If I want to be able to do things that the game wasn't designed then by all means I should be allowed to have a program running that does that. There's no use bickering about how hacking should be prevented. It's up to you how you play the game, don't worry about other people playing the game.

And to go on the subject of hacks being a crutch, they aren't in anyway shape or form. Anyone can use them, it's simply their choice to use them or not. If you think hacks are a huge crutch and think that it is too broken to fix, quit the game. If not, either play the game the way it is, or get the hacks yourself and quit complaining.

Am I doing it right?

[Orock]

Be warned, my response to this may sound a bit angry, although first off, I'd just like to say, if we could all stop using the word "retarded". It's not being used correctly, and it offends me and other people I know, so yeah, thats that.

Now on to the subject of mods. Who cares? If I want a mod that does everything in the game for me, by all means I should be allowed to have a mod that plays the game for me. There's no use bickering about how mods should work. It's up to you how you play the game, don't worry about other people playing the game.

And to go on the subject of mods being a crutch, They aren't in any way shape or form. Anyone can use them, it's simply their choice to use them or not to. If you think mods are a huge crutch and think that it is too broken to fix, quit the game. If not, either play the game the way it is, or get the mods yourself and quit complaining.

I care, I dont want to have to download a mod to be on a competative plane with everyone. I dont want some guy who is lousy at the game but super effective with mod support to constantly beat me down as I try and figure out what I did wrong, when it was the computer beating me not him. I dont want some killer mod to pop up that totally dominates the other person through automated responses, only to earn the cheater what he wanted then have his mod deleted too late.

UI mods are fine, mods that give you an advantage over someone because you searched some obscure board for a hardly known but abusive mod that lets you counter everything they do on autopilot are not.

[Molnu]

Now on to the subject of mods. Who cares? If I want a mod that does everything in the game for me, by all means I should be allowed to have a mod that plays the game for me. There's no use bickering about how mods should work. It's up to you how you play the game, don't worry about other people playing the game.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

So people should be able to hack and increase their stats and one hit everything and everyone else should just ignore them at let them play how they want?

Same argument in my eyes.

[Sparklehorse]

Be warned, my response to this may sound a bit angry, although first off, I'd just like to say, if we could all stop using the word "retarded". It's not being used correctly, and it offends me and other people I know, so yeah, thats that.

Now on to the subject of mods. Who cares? If I want a mod that does everything in the game for me, by all means I should be allowed to have a mod that plays the game for me. There's no use bickering about how mods should work. It's up to you how you play the game, don't worry about other people playing the game.


You're joking right? None of us have the energy to try and convince you of the importance of a game being fair and level for all players across the board. That is way to in depth of a discussion to have at this point in an already lengthy thread. I must assume that this is a joke. I don't think anybody wants that level of modification in a massively multi-player game.

[CleanCup]

If I want to be able to do things that the game wasn't designed then by all means I should be allowed to have a program running that does that. There's no use bickering about how hacking should be prevented. It's up to you how you play the game, don't worry about other people playing the game.

And to go on the subject of hacks being a crutch, they aren't in anyway shape or form. Anyone can use them, it's simply their choice to use them or not. If you think hacks are a huge crutch and think that it is too broken to fix, quit the game. If not, either play the game the way it is, or get the hacks yourself and quit complaining.

Am I doing it right?

Yes, yes you are.

[Molnu]

If I want to be able to do things that the game wasn't designed then by all means I should be allowed to have a program running that does that. There's no use bickering about how hacking should be prevented. It's up to you how you play the game, don't worry about other people playing the game.

And to go on the subject of hacks being a crutch, they aren't in anyway shape or form. Anyone can use them, it's simply their choice to use them or not. If you think hacks are a huge crutch and think that it is too broken to fix, quit the game. If not, either play the game the way it is, or get the hacks yourself and quit complaining.

Am I doing it right?

Quite possibly the best satire on this subject I've seen, ever.

Well put.

[Drintar]

Had to hunt but this is some info from E3


- Certian "Hooks" (modding lingo) will not be allowed
- It is inevitable that some people will get around these hooks but they'll be taken care of.
- Nothing like WoW's "Click to cure this automatically" or "cast this based on that".
- "Nothing that automates gameplay at all" will be allowed.
- There will be basic macros allowed in-game.


It's in this thread http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45880

[Marshall777]

Be warned, my response to this may sound a bit angry, although first off, I'd just like to say, if we could all stop using the word "retarded". It's not being used correctly, and it offends me and other people I know, so yeah, thats that.

Now on to the subject of mods. Who cares? If I want a mod that does everything in the game for me, by all means I should be allowed to have a mod that plays the game for me. There's no use bickering about how mods should work. It's up to you how you play the game, don't worry about other people playing the game.

And to go on the subject of mods being a crutch, They aren't in any way shape or form. Anyone can use them, it's simply their choice to use them or not to. If you think mods are a huge crutch and think that it is too broken to fix, quit the game. If not, either play the game the way it is, or get the mods yourself and quit complaining.

I dont normally log in to reply to threads, but this has to be the most ridiculous comment i have seen!

Of course it matters that everyone is on a level playing field.

Would you like to play poker with people that knew the order in which the cards were going to be dealt?

The fact that this is an RvR based game designed to be fun above all else, where a substantial amount of game design has gone into the idea of bragging, (About having your statue made, or capturing rival guild banner scraps) then creating a level playing field where all players have an equal chance based on skill must be one of Mythic's highest priorities. Having a game where you are not competative because you are not gathering the latest mods and spending every hour grinding for the Uber Gear is not my idea of fun.

I know that i will be spending a lot of my free time playing WAR but i don't want to be at a Major disadvantage because i have less free time than somebody else. I am not saying players should not be rewarded for giving more time and commitment to the game than i am able to! Far from it in-fact, they should get better rewards that give them a slight edge, but i want to be able to jump into RVR at whatever time i get back from a hard day on the wards, and have some fun fighting at the front and feel i have a chance.:-D

Hope there are others out there that feel the same as i do and im not going to just get flamed to a crispy golden brown corpse.

-Edit ,

What i forgot to mention is that someone designing graphical changes to the UI (size, shape, color and arrangement of icons) i have no problem with, its just the automated gameplay aspects that really "grind my gears".

[Triknives]

First, ya mods that control your character, as in can run a BG for you etc.. are ridiculous. If you don't have time to play, then don't...Your bot shouldn't be allowed, and as stated tehy are not, so nuff said.

As far as raid mods, they really help, but they also really fail at the same time. If the user does not respond correctly, then he might as well of never had the mod, and yes it does happen. Wipes do happen even with mods. They are just a heads up, and people still fail.

Seeing someone elses cast bar, does not matter, its the same as reading their casting movement. You can also access that information by asking a person what their CD is. So, really, its just a nice thing to have...And since other players can have it too, its a fair ball game.

You guys are not looking at it as a 1 for 1. If i can get the mod, so can you. Cursegaming is available for everyone. I believe there are indeed mods that go too far, but auto text is not one of them, its not an action, and people still have to respond to that text. Poker analogies take it way too far. Simply becuase things are on a random set, for example, you say well if we all knew the cards coming that would ruin it. Well what WoW did was give them random timings, so you might have ur group set up in a formation to counter ONE move, however the next could be the killer, and that is exactly how it is. You get one move, and you have to work with it, and you have no idea whats next. In the later boss fights, mods dont matter, the only mod you use, is Threat Meter and CT Raid assist, all it does is help you target what the tank is attacking.

As far as pvp, no, im sorry, mods dont help. Doesnt matter if you know what move he is casting cus that move is in succession to another , his partners and you can only look at one persons skill bar at a time.

Not trying to insult, and sorry if its all been said, its a long thread now. Anyway have a good one.

[Triknives]

Also, the UI mod INGAME is basically BONGOS. So, mods dont ruin games, they improve them. and give ideas.

[Nerissa]

Why is this thread still open?




Mythic controls what modders can do through control of what API functions you can access. If THEY, not you, not the completely anti-mod luddites, not the more reasonable people who are somewhat concerned, deem something to be too much, THEY have the power to block off the function, rendering any and all mods that access the function worthless in that sector of their functionality.





This stupid thread has just been spinning around in circles for the past 8 pages now. Give it a rest people.

[Zypher]

First, ya mods that control your character, as in can run a BG for you etc.. are ridiculous. If you don't have time to play, then don't...Your bot shouldn't be allowed, and as stated they are not, so nuff said.

This needs clarification, that is not an Addon or mod that is what would be considered a 3rd party program that runs along side the game mimicking key combinations.

Currently, the game allows players to resize, scale, move, lock, and dock all GUI elements. This is purely cosmetic, and really doesn't present any advantage to anyone. Now, it has been stated by the devs that there will be no way to hook into protected functions. This means functions that aren't specifically designated by the devs for use in Macros and Addons won't be available at all.

[Mel]

Also, the UI mod INGAME is basically BONGOS.

What does that even mean? Im pretty sure I dont see any drums on the UI. You whippersnappers and your fancy talkin.

[Triknives]

haha, sorry about that, by BONGOs i ment, the add-on for WoW. Most appologies for that.

As far as my bot thing, a poster mentioned one basically, by saying if he wanted a add-on that ran his char, then he should be allowed, so thats all that was to.

And I agree the thread is moot atm, we should all just relax. Its really just trivial right now.

[Mo0rbid]

Be warned, my response to this may sound a bit angry, although first off, I'd just like to say, if we could all stop using the word "retarded". It's not being used correctly, and it offends me and other people I know, so yeah, thats that.

Now on to the subject of mods. Who cares? If I want a mod that does everything in the game for me, by all means I should be allowed to have a mod that plays the game for me. There's no use bickering about how mods should work. It's up to you how you play the game, don't worry about other people playing the game.

And to go on the subject of mods being a crutch, They aren't in any way shape or form. Anyone can use them, it's simply their choice to use them or not to. If you think mods are a huge crutch and think that it is too broken to fix, quit the game. If not, either play the game the way it is, or get the mods yourself and quit complaining.

sigh, there have been like 2 addons that "played" the game for anyone and they no longer works

[RisingChaos]

Mods that give any information, automation, or otherwise do anything other then GUI cusomization should be banable and not allowed.

[Yonan]

Mods that give any information, automation, or otherwise do anything other then GUI cusomization should be banable and not allowed.


All "arguments" should purely state opinion and have no rationale or examples behind them at all.

[Molnu]

All "arguments" should purely state opinion and have no rationale or examples behind them at all.

Do you really need to hear his rationale?

He'd just be bringing the argument back to page 1 for the 30th time.

[Mel]

haha, sorry about that, by BONGOs i ment, the add-on for WoW. Most appologies for that.

As far as my bot thing, a poster mentioned one basically, by saying if he wanted a add-on that ran his char, then he should be allowed, so thats all that was to.

And I agree the thread is moot atm, we should all just relax. Its really just trivial right now.

Ah, I always used x-perl (xpearl? xperl? x-pearl? however the hell it was spelled) and the thing I liked the best about it was I could move the components of the ui around and resize them. So I was excited when I saw the same thing in the default ui for War.

And Im not sure how anyone can argue for mods that provide automation. It should be vacuously obvious that they provide an uneven playing field and are just a tiny notch below true hacking.

[pewpewarrows]

Mods that give any information, automation, or otherwise do anything other then GUI cusomization should be banable and not allowed.



Why hello there MMO gamer from 2001. Welcome to modern MMOs. Please take the time to familiarize yourself with the current discussion before making such ridiculously ignorant statements.

[Rugaard]

If you have to have mods running to complete raids then i feel sorry for you, a friend of mine got 2 toons maxed out in the Arena and he doesnt use any mods at all. You dont need them to play they just become a crutch.

[Molnu]

If you have to have mods running to complete raids then i feel sorry for you, a friend of mine got 2 toons maxed out in the Arena and he doesnt use any mods at all. You dont need them to play they just become a crutch.

Truth. Eventually they become so much of a crutch that the developers have to design new encounters around the mods, and then they might as well have implemented them in the default UI in the first place (*cough* Blizzard)

[Yonan]

If you have to have mods running to complete raids then i feel sorry for you, a friend of mine got 2 toons maxed out in the Arena and he doesnt use any mods at all. You dont need them to play they just become a crutch.

No rationale given for why mods become a crutch, all you've proven is that you don't need mods to be successful. To which I'd agree wholeheartedly - mods are optional and improve the game experience for players who choose to use them without making them overpowered.

Truth. Eventually they become so much of a crutch that the developers have to design new encounters around the mods, and then they might as well have implemented them in the default UI in the first place (*cough* Blizzard)

Having threat based (ie. tank and spank) encounters become a thing of the past is great thing I agree. Mods forced Blizzard to make more entertaining encounters where threat wasn't as relevant as positioning, paying attention etc. AoC didn't learn from this and has the most uninspired fights you can imagine, very boring.

Do you really need to hear his rationale?

No, but it needed to be mentioned how irrelevant his opinion was without anything to back it up ; )

[Llamazerker]

they've already stated warhammer will have a very standard modability to it from e3. if standard could be considered wow like then i think this discussion is over. mods will not be restrained to cosmetics and will offer all of the goodies exept reactionary mods that do y when x occurs.