Disappointment [Archive] - Warhammer Forums

Trennet

05-29-2008, 03:45 AM

The 2 reasons I'm disappointed with the crafting system:

1. PvP Potting

As only 1 of 2 crafting proffesions, Potions will likely play a huge part in WAR PvP, reducing the advantage of skill and gear (by how much is sheer speculation at this point). The video does suggest that buffing potions will persist through death (MJ said that if were going to RvR for 2hrs then you would make 2hr duration consumables.) Imagine if 50% of WoW players were alchemists and elixirs lasted through death (like flasks).

Maybe it's just me, but I hate losing a fight solely based on who uses more potions -- a mechanic that promotes gold buying/selling. Moreover, with Potion use likely being required for balanced combat, something of the "just log on and RvR" dynamic is lost: either you spend a lot of time/money preparing (i.e. grinding) or you go without consumables and are at a disadvantage.

Personally, I hate consumable use in PvP other than something like WoW's bandaging (cancelled by any dmg). Shame WAR isn't just eliminating all consumable use -- now that would be a revolutionary step in PvP.

2. Lack of Crafting

While I praise the creativity of WARs gathering professions, a mere 2 crafting professions is woefully lacking: when 50% of the playerbase has eah crafting professiom, individuality goes out the window.

I do, however, recognize that the 2 crafting professions were chosen well: both will likely maintain scaling throughout the game since are independent of gear. (In comparison, armor crafting tends to suffer from usually falling behind in power of other attainable gear or occasionally being too powerful and requisite for certain classes). But even cosmetic professions -- ones that provide little-to-no boost in power but sought-after augmentations to appearance -- are something that could help add a tad of variety to WARs crafting.

Damnien

05-29-2008, 04:19 AM

must say that i am very excited about the crafting. i like that i don't have to acquire a expensive or hard to get recipe aswell as the option to experiment. of course there are going to be a page on the internet e.g. like thottbot or wowhead that will inlist the different combinations for different potions/talismans but one can always choose not to look at it - i know i won't :p

about potions i understand your point. however you have to remember that talisman crafters will also have static buffs. i also like if they last trough death and for a long time - that means i don't have but 10 of each. and if there then would be a cap on how many potions you can have active i think it will be ok. as you can see all gathering professions are pretty easy. one should come across a few dead bodies while they play. seed/spore drop rate i don't know about but considering how available the other resources are i think that we will be ok. therefore i really don't think you have to grind to be able to log on and go straight for RvR. you should always have a potion or two in you bag.

i hope that in time - either before release or after - there will be more crafting professions aswell. but what is in already really really rocks.

and great VotM by Mark :cool:

Tegatana

05-29-2008, 04:45 AM

BIG Disappointment here, too.

Looks like 2 Tradeskills und 4 Types of gathering resources ist all the game goes life with.
Thats a huge letdown for every crafter.

If they don't come up with much more, the time and manpower used to create this was better spend on something to bring the game really forward!

Skyldig

05-29-2008, 04:52 AM

I will agree with you on one of your points: The lack of craftingskills.

For the whole PvP potting i'm not that worried. Potions will most likely be rather weak, just as gear will not have the same amount of influence of gameplay as in say WoW.
Anyway, the huge amount of apothecarys (spelling?!?) in the game will drive the prices on potions down, so you'll probably be able to buy them for just a bit over ingredience prices. Also, with 50% of the server population, chances are that you have a friend, guildmate or groupmember that can craft potions for you for free + ingrediences.

The lack of craftingskills worry me. I hope that this is somewhat an early stage of the craftingsystem, and that you'll be able to specialize in some way to enhance differentiation like we saw with the Mastery Paths.
Lets say you have a system of 40 ranks (you get one point pr. rank you are in the game, so 40 at levelcap):
You throw 24 point into statboost-potions, 10 points into healing-potions and 6 points into Gadget-potions (immunity-potions, actionpoint-potions and stuff like that).
Each point in a specialization will enhance the effect of the potions you make that falls under that specialization category. It would make for some very nice customization opportunities, and it would be easy to implement.

Gunter

05-29-2008, 06:08 AM

IN the vid he said this was all ....for now. I will bet 1 to 2 more craft skills.

anund

05-29-2008, 06:18 AM

It was stated that they were only the crafts that are announced for now.....just for now, dont worry so much.

About consumables in PvP, I have to agree that pots suck in pvp and I hate to lose because I'm not as rich as my opponent.
But then, Mythic wants to avoid "grinding" style crafts and so I doubt players will be expected to stock up (grind) on pots before PvP. Besides if WoW is anything to go by, if someone, for example; has a fight where they win because they potted up all the glory of that fight is gone anyway.

Damnien

05-29-2008, 06:22 AM

also remember that we still don't know the depths of the craftings skills. in most games it is often about healing/mana potions and then a few buffs. perhaps there is loads of potions to make(who are also good enough to be woth the hassle) creating more diversity. considering that there for now only are two crafting skills they must have seen a lot of love :)

but agree that i few more crafting skills would be awesome. but i am still very excited :cool:

Gunter

05-29-2008, 06:22 AM

Lupal

05-29-2008, 06:33 AM

Personally, I like the lack of crafting and think it fits in with the WAR world. I would rather be fighting, constantly, in open field and scenarios instead of being forced to farm cash and gather materials so I can be competitive to the full degree in RVR.

A lot of players take crafting very seriously, and really enjoy it, however, so I would hate to alienate those players. By that indication you will need the potions, so you will still be "forced" to a degree to remain competitive. I just don't want it to eat out a couple hours of my gaming every week. As long as money and materials drop a plenty, and the market remains fair and competitive, it won't hold back those too much who don't care for crafting.

Rhianni

05-29-2008, 07:26 AM

1: Why cant both sides use potions? Wouldnt that put things back on an even balance? I think you are mistaken that only alchemists used potions and elixirs in WoW. They arent exactly soulbound. Also, 1 gold cost potions arent the driving force for gold farmers come on now.

2: I agree with your second point. I would like to have a few more but mythic has been pretty spot on with almost everything else game developement wise so I'll wait to see what the "for now" clause of the 2 classes means.

vanza001

05-29-2008, 08:02 AM

I am a tad bit disappointed but I don't think its going to be creating any issues and it might just work out. If there are only two tradeskills available everyone will be one or the other right? Kinda, but not everyone will be equal. There will be a large variation between all these people on the amount of time spent doing this. Because not everyone knows the perfect combinations or has put the time into create large quantities, there will be a market. I'm hoping that gathering stuff will play the biggest roles. Crafting is good and all but you aren't going to craft unless you have the resources. Alot of crafters with the same two skills, but with different gathering skills means they will have to work together to get the resources to build the good things. The entrepreneurs will invest loads of cash getting a wide selection and quantities of resources and make more and better potions which he can sell because not many other Apothecary's have that amount of resources. Economically (in game) it might just work. I'd love to see 1 more trade skill though, for sure. Maybe Races should have a craft they can optionally select rather than the global skills. Dwarves can be Brewers (where you can drink and share brews with different effects), Elves can both have the same one which might be Magical in some way (using magical gathering), I dunno I'm no lore junkie but it sounds good.

Tpip

05-29-2008, 08:17 AM

I am really dissapointed =/

First things first, butchery and scavanging should be one skill. Butchery on its own will be a grind-(even though grinding is supposed to be something avoided), because it has to be non sentient beings... aka non players. So if anyone were to focus on butchery, they would have to go away from the WAR of the game and grind their meat. Unless of course they have lots of zoo's in captial city raids?

2nd, no recipes... well there are recipes- just not written down on ingame items that need to be learnt, theres no real way to avoid it, but the system they have, although interesting, will eventualy be a matter of "ok so i cant find the recipe i want in game, ill go to a FAQ instead. There are still level requirements, and tbh id rather not be able to make a potion becuase I dont know the recipe than to randomly have a you are not high enough to mix this potion..."wtf? ahh the spoon will not mooooovee!"

Cultivation seems ok (though are the "plant pots" in your bag or in the real world?) as does magical salvaging (lol disenchanting =p ). Alchemy looks good too, however talismans skill is essentialy the same, providing temporary buffs, just more effort goes into making them, I honestly think that there need to be permenant talisman buffs for them to be worthwwhile, even if it means its essentialy enchanting/socketing or whatever.

There also needs to be another crafting skill, it seems odd that there are only two, which essentialy do the same thing.

Ideas for other crafting skills? Scroll maker-there are many magic scrolls in Warhammer, where you use magical essence on scrolls to make one off spells (ala Morrowind) these spells can be aggresive or healing/buffing, and only aheva level requirement.

Then there are possible deviations from teh regualr "first aid" skills and armour enhancement skills.

Either way I am dissapointed at what is essentially a lacklustre crafting system.

Shifte

05-29-2008, 08:30 AM

I like that you can mix anything, to make random stuff, so well done on that. I dislike the lack of other professions, as a few more would have been nice.

Credit to them for making Crafting less boring. It's definitely 80% the same as other games, but it isn't something I would say it easily changed. So well done on the spin you put on it MJ. Although if you can perhaps rename Magic Salvegry to Disenchanting.. :P

Stiltzkin

05-29-2008, 08:30 AM

He said they will go more in depth in these systems and discuss new systems in the future. Don't worry I'm sure there are more things coming. They've already stated they want a crafting system that upgrades siege weapons and it wasn't discussed in the video so we know at least one more is coming.

Also I'm sure if you make a potion too high level for you it will just fail as they described (vial explodes). I think non recipe based system is GREAT! You can customize what you want from your potion. I'm sure each ingredient adds an effect and you put all the effects together for the potions overall effect. Also the mention of random effects happening to potions is a great idea. It's cool that while making 10 healing potions one of them might randomly have a higher number or maybe a chain healing effect whatever they decide. I never started a crafting skill in an MMO before. I'm actually looking forward to crafting in WAR and I have never had interest in crafting before.

8igdave

05-29-2008, 08:49 AM

I would ahve liked some more skills as well but at teh end of the day theese two would still be the two id be leveling most. But you cant/ you have to choose one? Rediculas. Not happy with teh fact im forced to go into one skill which may not even be the best. Lets face it, there is going to be one which tops out to be the best money maker and we wont know till we have spent alot of time putting xp into them. Pritty annoyed tbh.

And whats with the whole non recipy thing? So when i make a potion there are certain potions i can make using certain ingreedients... sounds like a recipy. So i can add differnt ingreediants to change the potion, sounds like more recipies. So i can "design" my own potions ooo yeah because they obiously arnt pre-scripterd RECIPIES. How dumb. Perhaps im missing the point but they are trying to in effect trick peopel that what they are doing is some how differnt?

Stiltzkin

05-29-2008, 09:03 AM

And whats with the whole non recipy thing? So when i make a potion there are certain potions i can make using certain ingreedients... sounds like a recipy. So i can add differnt ingreediants to change the potion, sounds like more recipies. So i can "design" my own potions ooo yeah because they obiously arnt pre-scripterd RECIPIES. How dumb. Perhaps im missing the point but they are trying to in effect trick peopel that what they are doing is some how differnt?
They are not pre-scripted. The ingredients have effects and when you mix ingredients you add up the effects. You should try out the alchemy skill in Morrowind it's pretty similar. They tried to keep this from being too exploitable by adding in the stability factor. In some other games you have to have specific items to make one kind of potion. 3 roots of cacti to make a + 5 strength potion that lasts for 5 minutes. In this system You choose a main ingredient to decide what kind of potion it is. A root of cacti makes it a strength potion. Then you add in any other ingredients you want to affect the specifics. maybe increase duration beyond 5 minutes or increase the buff above +5 strength. Do you now see the difference?

Damnien

05-29-2008, 09:04 AM

Soapbar

05-29-2008, 09:12 AM

Eh, I really don't see a huge advantage at making your own potions. From an interview with Gamespy and Mark Jacobs (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/warhammer-online/876916p1.html), it seems that they want to make potions, lotions, and other such things that will be made with apothecary will be perishable, thus will be tedious and costly to have a large advantage over others in RvR.

"Let's say you are going into battle, and you want the biggest, nastiest explosive potion you can make. So what you can do is you can play around with the ingredients and make a potion that may only last 30 minutes but does double damage. On the other hand, let's say you're going out for a night of PvE and you might want to make that same kind of potion but you're going to out for four or five hours. You play around with the ingredients and you make a potion that's a little less powerful but it'll last an entire night." (Mark Jacob)

With the amount of time it takes to grow certain plants, being monitored if there is unusual activity in trying to "farm" plants, the mixing of PvE and RvR to gather items for the really good potions, and the time limit on when to use the potions seems to be a balanced way to prevent stockpiling of highly useful potions in most situations.

As for the talisman skill, this seems to be a nice little way to buff up certian pieces of armor that can have a talisman put in place. There seems that they want to make some sort of limited slot system on various pieces of armor that would provide such buffs. Since you can choose from one of the two creation skills, I would think that it would be somewhat easy to find someone that can craft this for you, and would not to much of an overall advantage over those that chose apothecary.

Then again, with that in mind, apothecaries would have a slight advantage over talisman creators with the mindset of the approach of distribution of items and knowledge of a time limit of use of a potion. Perhaps if talismans had some of week consumable enchantment on them that can be placed and recharged by talisman creators, I could see a little bit of an offset to the distribution idea. Or maybe the potion could be preserved if you mail the item or put it up on the Auction House until it gets into a player bag. Guess we will just have to wait and see what they have planned.

Tpip

05-29-2008, 09:16 AM

They are not pre-scripted. The ingredients have effects and when you mix ingredients you add up the effects. You should try out the alchemy skill in Morrowind it's pretty similar. They tried to keep this from being too exploitable by adding in the stability factor. In some other games you have to have specific items to make one kind of potion. 3 roots of cacti to make a + 5 strength potion that lasts for 5 minutes. In this system You choose a main ingredient to decide what kind of potion it is. A root of cacti makes it a strength potion. Then you add in any other ingredients you want to affect the specifics. maybe increase duration beyond 5 minutes or increase the buff above +5 strength. Do you now see the difference?

Ahh but if you went to say gamefaqs for morrowind, there would be pages and pages of alchemy recipes. They have removed recipes from WAR in terms of them being items, but that is essentially it, i guarantee that eventally people will be going to faqs to get their recipes now, instead of just scrolling through a window in game.

and from what ive heard from public showings of the game, talismans are temporary buffs, not permanent

8igdave

05-29-2008, 09:16 AM

They are not pre-scripted. The ingredients have effects and when you mix ingredients you add up the effects. You should try out the alchemy skill in Morrowind it's pretty similar. They tried to keep this from being too exploitable by adding in the stability factor. In some other games you have to have specific items to make one kind of potion. 3 roots of cacti to make a + 5 strength potion that lasts for 5 minutes. In this system You choose a main ingredient to decide what kind of potion it is. A root of cacti makes it a strength potion. Then you add in any other ingredients you want to affect the specifics. maybe increase duration beyond 5 minutes or increase the buff above +5 strength. Do you now see the difference?

Ive played both obilivion and morrow wind. Its still scripted its just got more variation. There is no difference between "recipy potions" where some last longer then others but less strong. And "makign your own" where they do the exact same thing. Can you not see this not some unlimited choice thing and just a way of hiding recipies. My first impressino was, how dumb do they think i am. But evidently some peopel actually beleive it.

Stiltzkin

05-29-2008, 09:25 AM

What do you want? The ability to make up stats and effects program them into the game and invent your own potions that way? All things have to be scripted into the programming in order to exist in the game so it shouldn't be a surprise. It merely has more versatility and customization options than recipe based systems. When they say recipe based system they're talking about a system where if you want a strength potion there is only 1 type of strength potion and you need the same exact components to make it. Sure in WAR's system you need a specific item to determine the type of potion it is but the supplementary items customize the potency, duration, etc. Sure some people will go with a generic recommendation from a website but you are not limited to that option and can choose to do something else whereas in recipe based systems you only have 1 option.

8igdave

05-29-2008, 09:28 AM

The point is there is no difference, there will be only a few which will be made as tehy will eb considered the best. They are just trying to play it out to be something it isn't.

anund

05-29-2008, 09:36 AM

Also I'm sure if you make a potion too high level for you it will just fail as they described (vial explodes). I think non recipe based system is GREAT! You can customize what you want from your potion. I'm sure each ingredient adds an effect and you put all the effects together for the potions overall effect. Also the mention of random effects happening to potions is a great idea. It's cool that while making 10 healing potions one of them might randomly have a higher number or maybe a chain healing effect whatever they decide. I never started a crafting skill in an MMO before. I'm actually looking forward to crafting in WAR and I have never had interest in crafting before.The same system is in "the elder scrolls" games (oblivion, morrowind etc) for alchemy, it was definitely enjoyable. If the gathering skills in War are as easy (similarly based) as gathering plants herbs and meat in the elder scrolls as well then the non recipe based crafting system in War should be a big hit.

anund

05-29-2008, 09:43 AM

They are not pre-scripted. The ingredients have effects and when you mix ingredients you add up the effects. You should try out the alchemy skill in Morrowind it's pretty similar. They tried to keep this from being too exploitable by adding in the stability factor. In some other games you have to have specific items to make one kind of potion. 3 roots of cacti to make a + 5 strength potion that lasts for 5 minutes. In this system You choose a main ingredient to decide what kind of potion it is. A root of cacti makes it a strength potion. Then you add in any other ingredients you want to affect the specifics. maybe increase duration beyond 5 minutes or increase the buff above +5 strength. Do you now see the difference?
So I just read this post after quoting you. I wasted all that time posting and you were way ahead of me.....

Stiltzkin

05-29-2008, 09:45 AM

The point is there is no difference, there will be only a few which will be made as tehy will eb considered the best. They are just trying to play it out to be something it isn't.

did you actually watch the video all the way through? they gave a great example that directly counters your sentiment. For instance, you know you will be PvPing for two hours so you make a pot that will last a short duration but has more bang. If at a later time you feel like going to do some PvE for six hours you would make a pot with a longer duration but slightly less bang. Plus, there are many different skill sets and gaming styles so i doubt there will be "only a few which will be made as they will be considered best." It seems like you are, for some reason, dead set on complaining without even taking time to consider that it IS different than a system in which you are only give a few options for how to use your skill. Experiment a little, don't let other players tell you what is "best."

8igdave

05-29-2008, 09:49 AM

did you actually watch the video all the way through? they gave a great example that directly counters your sentiment. For instance, you know you will be PvPing for two hours so you make a pot that will last a short duration but has more bang. If at a later time you feel like going to do some PvE for six hours you would make a pot with a longer duration but slightly less bang. Plus, there are many different skill sets and gaming styles so i doubt there will be "only a few which will be made as they will be considered best." It seems like you are, for some reason, dead set on complaining without even taking time to consider that it IS different than a system in which you are only give a few options for how to use your skill. Experiment a little, don't let other players tell you what is "best."

yes i did and they say that but its likely there will onyl be a few variations which are worth the cash.

Beleive what you want but tehy are hypig it up for somethign that it is not and somerthing that will not happen.

I did like the potions in oblivion and morrowind. But that just supports what im saying, there were only ever a few potions you made because they were the best. There was no reason to mix and match and make the potions worse for their intended job.

On a side note the poisons had a really nice variety in oblivion with burden things like that etc. Would be nice if that was in war. But id imagin its very costly to poison your blades constantly for little effect in RVR when your dieing so oftern probably.

Stiltzkin

05-29-2008, 09:51 AM

If you have harvested some items and don't want to spend the cash on the "optimal" items the ability to use what you have instead is already > recipe based systems.

Tpip

05-29-2008, 09:51 AM

The point is there is no difference, there will be only a few which will be made as tehy will eb considered the best. They are just trying to play it out to be something it isn't.

exactly =) there is indeed alot of customisation but there will be many potions that are "creative dead ends" that are simply there to give the illusuion of versatility. Only a select few varients will ver be used.

But like stiltzkin said, its always going to be scripted.

My issue is the fact that there currently sems to be no in game library of what is what, and automaticaly selects the correct ingredients for making, by choosing a specific potion you want (granted I dont mind having to make/ discover the potion a certain amount of times (or even once) before you can do this.

Meaning that if i were to create a certain amount and a variety of potions for a city raid, i would have to go to an external site, read through teh list to find the potions i need, and then calcualte the ingredients i need, attain them, and then manualy place them into the pots for making.

Ideally once i'd discovered a recipe, it would be recorded down (ToK?) and then placed into a library for quick reference and perhaps havea n option so that i can instead of selectign ingredients to make the potion, i can select the potion which then prepairs the mixing bowl with the correct reagents to make it (aka like WoW system).

make sence?

8igdave

05-29-2008, 09:53 AM

Yeah it will probalby be a whole TOK section on potions etc.

Btw i added more into my orginal post dunno if you lot saw it as neither quoted the extra.

Also i know it will always be scripted its impossibel for it not to be im not stupid. It was the point im making that it will always be scripted and tehre will always only be a certain amount of thinsg you can do and out of that even fewer that are worth doing. They are trying to claim its got all theese ulimited differnt thinsg to do ooo can mix and match. IT wont happen tehy are dressing it up for something it is not taht is what im saying.

Stiltzkin

05-29-2008, 09:57 AM

My issue is the fact that there currently sems to be no in game library of what is what, and automaticaly selects the correct ingredients for making, by choosing a specific potion you want (granted I dont mind having to make/ discover the potion a certain amount of times (or even once) before you can do this.

You answered your own problem with ToK. I bet it even keeps track of previous potion recipes when you switch crafting professions. I assume you will have to look it up in ToK and mix the potion yourself. It probably won't be automated.

vanza001

05-29-2008, 09:57 AM

yes i did and they say that but its likely there will onyl be a few variations which are worth the cash.

Beleive what you want but tehy are hypig it up for somethign that it is not and somerthing that will not happen.

I did like the potions in oblivion and morrowind. But that just supports what im saying, there were only ever a few potions you made because they were the best. There was no reason to mix and match and make the potions worse for their intended job.

On a side note the poisons had a really nice variety in oblivion with burden things like that etc. Would be nice if that was in war. But id imagin its very costly to poison your blades constantly for little effect in RVR when your dieing so oftern probably.

You aren't paying attention to the details. Everything was done for a reason. You can only have 1 of each for a reason (economy). You can mix and match things for a reason. The reason is that even if you don't have all the to make the particular super awesome bad potion, you can still make something. But the person with all the time and dedication could have a quite successful career selling super bad awesome potions. See how the littlest detail changes the entire personality of crafting within a game? Instead of it being something you do for yourself and you have to work at it by collecting high level rare recipes, you can do it for yourself or pay someone else to give you something they have done. Supply and demand. There was hardly any supply in WoW, recipes were rare and the resources expensive for anything decent. There was a demand but there were other ways to supply it (other than crafting). In WAR the demand is constant, perishable items. Or one use enchantments(talismans) but the supply is not. You don't always have the best ingredients or even know what the best ingredients are. The best ingredients are different for each class.

I'm disappointed also. In the variety of crafting skills. EVERYTHING else makes perfect sense... hell even only have two crafting skills makes sense because balance is the key and I can't think of any other major crafting skills that would become even close to as useful in RvR as well as PvE across the board as these two.

anund

05-29-2008, 09:58 AM

Also i know it will always be scripted its impossibel for it not to be im not stupid. It was the point im making that it will always be scripted and tehre will always only be a certain amount of thinsg you can do and out of that even fewer that are worth doing. They are trying to claim its got all theese ulimited differnt thinsg to do ooo can mix and match. IT wont happen tehy are dressing it up for something it is not taht is what im saying.
Yet it's a ploy that will work on alot of players. Including myself, it's nice not to have the hassle of collecting recipes. Getting the items and levelling the skill itself is usually bad enough.

8igdave

05-29-2008, 10:00 AM

Because youll be able to collect the stuff off things you kill relativly easy id say supply wont be to harsh. Alot of people probably wont bother with potions and just sell what they pick up i would ahve thought?

Skaejek

05-29-2008, 10:01 AM

First of all, it is important to look at what Mythic have done, and not what they haven't (yet). Crafting can always be expanded; it is the fundamental mechanics that are more important at this stage.

I think the system has real promise. There is definitely an effort to encourage creativity and fun. So, you cannot say Mythic have their priorities wrong. Implementation-wise, I believe that it is far too early to make assumptions (such as pots will ruin RvR). We don't know enough; for example, how Mythic will prevent the creation of cookie-cutter potion 'recipes' being posted on the Internet.

As for the gathering professions, there are positive and debatable points. Cultivating looks very interesting and creative, and so does Magical Salvaging (taking certain properties from items). However, Butchering and Scavenging do look a little lacking (based on what we know so far). As Mbj said, "they are two sides of the same coin", but that is the point; they are essentially the same coin. However, I'm sure these areas will be expanded upon in good time.

If we can say one thing, it is this: this is a real step forward. If you'd prefer a recipe-based, grind-based system, you know where to go. It's also important to bear in mind that crafting is not the core of this game. It is more of a mini game that feeds into the core. So, don't expect the most extensive and revolutionary system ever made, but so far, in my opinion, this system certainly beats current competition that refers to crafting in it's title.

anund

05-29-2008, 10:04 AM

Some items may be still very difficult to attain.
In WoW it is in most cases more efficient to just sell any boe recipes that are found than to actually learn them and try to make profit by selling goods/services from the recipe. War may likely be the same, but in any case we currently know probably one tenth of what is really going on inside the thoughts of Mythic, so, like it matters.

Tiger OTG

05-29-2008, 10:05 AM

This is a big disappointment....... :sad:

Tonzin

05-29-2008, 10:18 AM

I guess I will drive those who are complaining about lack of trade skills to think about this: When you say lack of trade skills you are probably talking about some kind of armor or weapon crafting correct? Simply put, the creative dev team has made it quite clear that RvR and PvE mixed gear will be the very best gear in the game for your tier...so why would you ever want to craft inferior armor? That being said I doubt they would add an armor/weapon crafting system in just to please people and throw the entire concept of RvR loot off.

Speaking of which, if you look at most MMOs the crafts that survive, work on a day to day basis, and keep the economy going are NOT the armor/weapon crafts. That's right ladies and gentlemen the buffing crafts are the ones that continue to be used day in and day out. Take a look at WoW, Black Smithing, Leather Working, Tailoring are all used for personal use 99% of the time and not very often at that. You CONSTANTLY see people spamming trade about enchanting, potions, and jewel crafting. So WAR simply cut out the extra fat and kept what they know will be used day in and day out.

I guess the main point of this is that although there are only 2 crafts they are probably the best 2 choices possible. Both will be highly used EVERY day by a large amount of people. In my opinion there isn't really a need to add in fluff crafts just because people want to have loads of options. If they manage to find another way to make a craft that will be used daily by a large number of people then good for them, otherwise I'd rather they didn't tamper with it and mess up what they have.

Tonzin

05-29-2008, 10:23 AM

As for the gathering professions, there are positive and debatable points. Cultivating looks very interesting and creative, and so does Magical Salvaging (taking certain properties from items). However, Butchering and Scavenging do look a little lacking (based on what we know so far). As Mbj said, "they are two sides of the same coin", but that is the point; they are essentially the same coin. However, I'm sure these areas will be expanded upon in good time.

I completely agree that they pretty much are the same, but the difference I see is as follows: Those who want to be more aligned toward PvE content will take up Butchering as they will not be interacting with as many humanoid creatures. Those who are more RvR (or PvP) aligned will more then likely choose Scavenging since they won't come across as many not humanoid type creatures.

Ideally they are exactly the same but each is geared toward a different play style and I think that is the effect they were going for.

vanza001

05-29-2008, 10:25 AM

If you have harvested some items and don't want to spend the cash on the "optimal" items the ability to use what you have instead is already > recipe based systems.

QFT

.....................

Tpip

05-29-2008, 10:26 AM

hmm well i think the recipe thing has been discussed enough now =p (hehe i really did answer my own question).

But butchery, does anyone else see my point about that?

to rephrase the point for those who cba to read the previous pages (lol) its basicaly that its the only collection skill that requires you to not pvp.

What I usualy do is look at the professions in relation to end game i.e city raiding.
If you look at the other collection skills, each can be done whilst raiding the city.. but butchery, how will Mythic ensure there is ample variety and numbers of things to butcher in the likes of a city raid? the majority of things being killed are going to be sentient beings.

The two need to be combined IMO and quicksharp!

8igdave

05-29-2008, 10:33 AM

Im glad of the direction against armour and weapons crafting i think thts good. But i dunno i just want somethnig else to keep me busy. But what else is there really?

luckyjny

05-29-2008, 10:40 AM

What I usualy do is look at the professions in relation to end game i.e city raiding.
If you look at the other collection skills, each can be done whilst raiding the city.. but butchery, how will Mythic ensure there is ample variety and numbers of things to butcher in the likes of a city raid? the majority of things being killed are going to be sentient beings.

The two need to be combined IMO and quicksharp!
Taken from the PvP vs PvE interview:
''Will there be monsters in PvP to act as obstacles?

Jeff: Yes. Although we like to keep PvP focused on players fighting each other, we do mix things up. Generally, they're not monsters. Usually, you'll find NPC guards and keep lords inside castles and keeps that will help allied players defend it. But there are also monsters inside capital cities. So, you might invade a capital city, kill off the entire populace, then take on the monsters that lurk underneath the city.''

I was hoping for something more too, never played a game with crafting before and think they could expand on this a bit and give us some decent time sinks.

Skaejek

05-29-2008, 10:41 AM

I completely agree that they pretty much are the same, but the difference I see is as follows: Those who want to be more aligned toward PvE content will take up Butchering as they will not be interacting with as many humanoid creatures. Those who are more RvR (or PvP) aligned will more then likely choose Scavenging since they won't come across as many not humanoid type creatures.

Ideally they are exactly the same but each is geared toward a different play style and I think that is the effect they were going for.

Good point. I suppose the PvEers need to be thrown a bone every so often :p

I do hope that they are made a little more dynamic than simply collecting items from dead creatures though. Perhaps if something could be done with these items before they are passed onto the crafting professions, to enhance them (adding spices to meat, for example). It would make things a little more interesting.

Stiltzkin

05-29-2008, 10:42 AM

If you are a butcher you could just focus on Squig Herders and White Lions when you RvR ;)
Seriously though, I bet meat and bones will be useful items and will make butchers a lot of money. If butchers are non existent I'm sure guilds will have people doing it just to round them out and that spills over into the rest of the economy.

On another note regarding the fact that there will only be a few potions made in the end because they are the best:

Players will be able to decide through experimentation which potions are the best instead of a skill trainer telling you what is the best. Isn't that already an improvement?

Nevostion

05-29-2008, 11:08 AM

Ironklak Splattadorf

05-29-2008, 11:19 AM

This is a big disappointment....... :sad:

So far it looks like I am going to have to agree with Tiger on this...

From what I saw on the French video and this new one Ive put together a picture of what I think WAR crafting is like. And while M.Jacobs said he wanted to create an innovative crafting system it seems he's succeeded in only creating an innovative gathering system. I could be wrong but it seems the crafting itself goes back to the decade old move item 1-4 from backpack then put in "combine" box and clicky button see what happens. While it is nice to stray away from gathering random resource "nodes" it seems far from innovative to go back to EQ1 crafting with the cool new gathering system.

And to clarify, are the two crafting professions the ONLY two? Or just the two they are showing us for the moment? Im praying that there's more...

Gunter

05-29-2008, 11:21 AM

So far it looks like I am going to have to agree with Tiger on this...

From what I saw on the French video and this new one Ive put together a picture of what I think WAR crafting is like. And while M.Jacobs said he wanted to create an innovative crafting system it seems he's succeeded in only creating an innovative gathering system. I could be wrong but it seems the crafting itself goes back to the decade old move item 1-4 from backpack then put in "combine" box and clicky button see what happens. While it is nice to stray away from gathering random resource "nodes" it seems far from innovative to go back to EQ1 crafting with the cool new gathering system.

And to clarify, are the two crafting professions the ONLY two? Or just the two they are showing us for the moment? Im praying that there's more...

Trhe idea is to have a flexable system. This does tht. I can make a +str pot with a 30 min timer or one with a 1 hour timer. Matters on the items I use. Thats a good thing. Its very customizable as explained.

As to mor ecrafting skills he said in the vid these are what we have for now.

Stiltzkin

05-29-2008, 11:26 AM

Karimi

05-29-2008, 12:20 PM

Its a better craft system , but still overdone and boring. It fits it with what the game wants to achieve, but as a person that is interested in the economics of war as well, I'm disappointed.

Stiltzkin

05-29-2008, 12:23 PM

^ doesn't like crafting ;)

Rotgut_Eadsmasha

05-29-2008, 12:24 PM

Its a better craft system , but still overdone and boring.

How the hell do you know? Have you tried it yet? Just like how the hell do those people that whine "Only 2!? Waaaah!". How the hell do those people know that there's only two crafting skills!? Oh wait they don't! Just because you see two in the podcast dosen't there are only 2! Espcally when MBJ says "These skills... These skills, FOR NOW."As in THERE ARE PROBABLY MORE SKILLS ON THE WAY!

But go ahead... keep jumping to your conclusions. :rolleyes:

Karimi

05-29-2008, 12:27 PM

^ doesn't like crafting ;)

Oops, I added some more stuff before I saw yours. I'll repeat it anyway.

Basically I see war as being more than just straight up fighting , its heavily entrenched in the economic underpinnings that allow it to happen. For me I wanted to see that partially expressed in the craft system : a system which would encourage war and getting out there, but through better crafting. The system in place is that of small enhancements to the player, and while thats fine and fun for WAR its not what I was hoping for, and its not original. Its not going to un-fun, it just won't be a joy to do.

Karimi

05-29-2008, 12:31 PM

How the hell do you know? Have you tried it yet? Just like how the hell do those people that whine "Only 2!? Waaaah!". How the hell do those people know that there's only two crafting skills!? Oh wait they don't! Just because you see two in the podcast dosen't there are only 2! Espcally when MBJ says "These skills... These skills, FOR NOW."As in THERE ARE PROBABLY MORE SKILLS ON THE WAY!

But go ahead... keep jumping to your conclusions. :rolleyes:

I have.

Now maybe there are more, and I hope to God there are then great. Maybe what I'm looking for might be in those extra professions (in that case they will be saving the best for last). I did not say it sucked , I said it was better (better than WoWs), it just wasn't to the WAR calibre yet.

If they tell us more than I will change my opinion, I'm not a prophet of doom, I've preordered the collector's edition so I'm not going about preaching failure and hoping for it.

Unstoppable

05-29-2008, 12:48 PM

I am excited about the crafting system. Can't wait to try it out. Also I'm sure there will be limits so potions won't be overpowered. Just like there are limits to stop gold farmers by tweaking the lands.

Nolife

05-29-2008, 01:18 PM

I love the crafting system. Discussions about "QQ people will just read the "best" combinations from the net QQ" are so hilarious it hurts. Well of course people will try to find the best combinations on the net, its how things work. But let me ask you one thing. Do you think that successful pharmaceutical firms make money by making their secret recipe known to public? At least in my case I wont be giving out information if I manage to produce super uber potion. It would hurt my income as much as it would make my enemies more capable and i wouldnt want either. I am also quite sure that guilds will keep their discoveries in potion department a secret.

And the system is totally different then recipe based system because you are not limited. E.G. In recipe based system you can have thousands of materials to craft "potion of super unlimited strength", but if you dont have the recipe you are screwed. In this system materials dictate what you can make.

With that out of the system I really hope they implement more then just two crafting professions.

Nurgling

05-29-2008, 02:00 PM

I dunno. It seems obvious to me that this is not a solo crafters dream. It seems set-up for guilds to capitalize on. The randomness, 'non-recipe' seems moot to me.

Look at it seriously:
1) long term, money is moot.
2) people will do whatever they can to min/max.
3) pot durations are moot in light of (2). Guilds, who will have organized gatherers, will be cranking out stacks of max effect pots. Why ever use a 6-hour pot when three 2-hour pots are better? Because you don't have the mats? Pleaseeee.

I just see this system just leaving behind the casual person who enjoys crafting the most in MMOs. But, on the flip side, it sure seems well built for a guild/group oriented rvr game.

Kudos for leaving out smithing though. A lot of arguments saved there.

DarknessGuard

05-29-2008, 03:17 PM

Im sorta looking forward to mixing and matching ingrediants to find what they make. If they dont have some sort of recording device, I plan on buying a notebook to write down what I use and the results of said mixture.

Im EXCITED, personally Im kinda hoping that there is no in-game recorder of your results and what you used and stuff, I really want to write it down. I know a lot of people who would disagree with me, but...:rolleyes:

seirios

05-29-2008, 03:39 PM

agree with op in both matters

Robbie11r1

05-29-2008, 03:44 PM

cooldown on potions?

pitty

05-29-2008, 04:12 PM

The upgrading of seige weapons will probably fall under talisman crafting.

Meh im not too impressed with the crafting system, i for one enjoy node spotting - A MMO without nodes seems pretty sad.

Gemini

05-29-2008, 04:13 PM

The upgrading of seige weapons will probably fall under talisman crafting.

Meh im not too impressed with the crafting system, i for one enjoy node spotting - A MMO without nodes seems pretty sad.

Seriously? I am so glad there won't be material nodes to farm.

Nerissa

05-29-2008, 04:17 PM

Perishable items don't really give me a good feeling. Call me crazy, but I like knowing that if I don't use X item that it won't disappear on me should Crazy Happen and I have to vanish from the game for a week.

pitty

05-29-2008, 04:17 PM

Seriously? I am so glad there won't be material nodes to farm.

And why is that ? Don't you like the lottery type system where something rare could drop from a node? It's all about the Vegas systems as Paul would say.

Rotgut_Eadsmasha

05-29-2008, 04:25 PM

Gemini

05-29-2008, 04:30 PM

And why is that ? Don't you like the lottery type system where something rare could drop from a node? It's all about the Vegas systems as Paul would say.

I'd rather get a lottery-type system of things I can kill than from a random arbitrary node.

pitty

05-29-2008, 04:31 PM

So how the hell does going out looking for nodes fit into this game? It's doesn't. So it's not in.

The last thing I want to see is half the damn server running around looking for nodes to hump in the hope of getting some crap while the damn city is burning to the ground.

Oh and carrying around potplants does ?

Hmm i thought dwarves and orcs were very industrialised, i must be mistaken

ManiaCCC

05-29-2008, 04:37 PM

How can't people see that there will be more crafing skills is really beyond me.. I think internet really lacks of common sense....

Rotgut_Eadsmasha

05-29-2008, 04:45 PM

Oh and carrying around potplants does ?

Hmm i thought dwarves and orcs were very industrialised, i must be mistaken

Carrying a potted plant in your backpack doesn't mean you can't fight in a siege. Humping a node in the middle of nowhere does.

Dwarves are cause most of them lock stay in their holds and rarely come out of them. Orcs make things out of mud, wood and poo.

I think internet really lack of common sense....

True... so true.

DarknessGuard

05-29-2008, 04:48 PM

Orcs make things out of mud, wood and poo.

They also steal

Ununseptium

05-29-2008, 04:50 PM

I fookin LOVE the crafting system to all of you "people" that are complaining about the lack of them arms and armour crafting is dumb because either there is no use for what you make or if its even good enough to use theres NO skill in just making it you should have to fight for it, and then things like engineering are just a waste THIS IS WAR AND IN WAR THERES NO TIME TO MAKE A ROBOTIC SQUIRREL!!!

Vallen

05-29-2008, 05:51 PM

ManiaCCC

05-29-2008, 06:22 PM

The thing thats gets me is Mythic stated that its War, your not going to picking flowers or making swords, you going to be out kill stuff......yet I can grow plants and fiddle around with stupid jewelery(talismans)

Another person who can't understand few basic facts..

You are not spending hours in city to rise your crafting skill - check (you can do it everywhere, anytime, even on battlefield)

You are not moving around nodes to gather some material, everything you have from killing stuff (and even while you are skilling your cultivation you can kill stuff :P ) - check

Everything what you are doing is benefical for "war" (combat) - check

Tonzin

05-30-2008, 12:03 AM

I seriously can't see how someone could pick skavenging or butchering + one of the crafting skills. If MS is the most important skill for talisman making and cultivating the most important skill for apothecary, why would someone take scavenging or butchering? You could maybe make much money when you have high butchering lvl but at lower levels you need more items from people with cultivation/salvaging thus making your crafting leveling lot of harder.

Just so I don't get rammed in the bum again by the administration for stating what Mythic has openly declared, I am going to say this is purely speculation and I do not have hard evidence of anything and this is more of a hunch based on what HAS been released thus far about crafting.

So far cultivating will be a large provider for those who do Apothecary crafting. It was also noted that there are a lot of materials that come from Scavenging that aid in Apothecary. Since magical salvaging is going to be the large provider for the Talisman Making craft, and here is where my presumptions and speculations kick in, I am going to bet that the butchering profession will provide a lot of materials for the Talisman Making craft.

Do I have any hard evidence of this? Nope, but from the video it did show talismans that were bone scarabs and teeth. Butchering provides meats, skins and bones and I bet those will probably be some of the things needed to create the talismans that look to be created of bones.

Any thoughts on my conclusions?

Hericus

05-30-2008, 12:43 AM

Just so I don't get rammed in the bum again by the administration for stating what Mythic has openly declared, I am going to say this is purely speculation and I do not have hard evidence of anything and this is more of a hunch based on what HAS been released thus far about crafting.

So far cultivating will be a large provider for those who do Apothecary crafting. It was also noted that there are a lot of materials that come from Scavenging that aid in Apothecary. Since magical salvaging is going to be the large provider for the Talisman Making craft, and here is where my presumptions and speculations kick in, I am going to bet that the butchering profession will provide a lot of materials for the Talisman Making craft.

Do I have any hard evidence of this? Nope, but from the video it did show talismans that were bone scarabs and teeth. Butchering provides meats, skins and bones and I bet those will probably be some of the things needed to create the talismans that look to be created of bones.

Any thoughts on my conclusions?

I agree. Although I think every gathering skill will be necessary for any crafting skill at some point. Bone powder for potions, eyes of bats etc. And of course it's normal to have some primary gathering skill fro you profession.

Maybe we won't see another crafting skill before release but I'm sure that salvaging and butchering will be good money makers for people that only want to play PvP or PvE. Also if there's no one with butchering the prices of meat will go up and someone will make a fat load of cash on it. It will come in balance in a time.

Vallen

05-30-2008, 12:47 AM

Another person who can't understand few basic facts..

You are not spending hours in city to rise your crafting skill - check (you can do it everywhere, anytime, even on battlefield)

You are not moving around nodes to gather some material, everything you have from killing stuff (and even while you are skilling your cultivation you can kill stuff :P ) - check

Everything what you are doing is benefical for "war" (combat) - check

I never said nodes and sitting in the city was good or bad. Nodes are bad cause everyone knows where they are and the respawn time so its just a race to see who gets there first. Camping in the city is obviously lame.

My point was the weeds/fungus/spores and the jewelry arn't as "war" related as a sword or armour. And the fact that talismans(so far at least) are only for "some armour and weapons. Only rare and powerful items can have a talisman attached to them" kinda limits there use. Unless you can buy those rare and powerful items from a merchant.

With this new and unique crafting system making swords and armour could of been fun and useful. The two crafting ones are already stated to have the ability for something truly unique and great to be made, so why not a new and unique dagger? As for balancing, well I don't mind if my stuff is subpar its usually easier to make subpar items then it is to raid and hope you get to roll on the good stuff that drops.

And notice I didn't say anything bad about Apoc(BOOZE!.....I hope), Scavenging/butcher(meh) or Magical Salvaging(niftyl little twist on an old game, probably be the one skill I take)

Stiltzkin

05-30-2008, 01:02 AM

My point was the weeds/fungus/spores and the jewelry arn't as "war" related as a sword or armour. And the fact that talismans(so far at least) are only for "some armour and weapons. Only rare and powerful items can have a talisman attached to them" kinda limits there use.
I bet they mean rare and powerful items like green compared to gray/white in World of Warcraft. I doubt only blue/purple equivalent items will get these. and if that IS what they mean I agree that it will be very limited.

impulsebooks

05-30-2008, 01:43 AM

Perhaps im missing the point but they are trying to in effect trick peopel that what they are doing is some how differnt?

Yes you are missing the point. Tey have tried to make te crafting different in that you don't need to be an epic raider or very very lucky in your drops to get that rare recipe. Now your ability to craft an item is in your own hands. Its within your power to experiment (ie, exploration is back) and find the combinations (hidden system recipes) to create the best things.

Basically, they have taken your ability to gain the best recipes away from the game and put it firmly in your own hands. That's how I see it.

There was nothing more frustrating than having no chance of ever getting that epic recipe, and having to pay like stupid 1000g for it on AH. Now I can hide in an out of the way inn and perfect my crafting, so that when I find it I have a potion that lasts 10mins and explodes wth the force of 10megatons!! Muhhahahahah!!

Arklinear

05-30-2008, 01:54 AM

Tonzin

05-30-2008, 02:00 AM

I bet they mean rare and powerful items like green compared to gray/white in World of Warcraft. I doubt only blue/purple equivalent items will get these. and if that IS what they mean I agree that it will be very limited.

Unless the gear you get for your RvR tier is of rare quality where as questing in general will provide things like the common greens. I don't know this for certain and could be talking out of my butt but I'd assume they have thought of the limited use of having no "rare/powerful" except at the higher levels.

8igdave

05-30-2008, 03:21 AM

How the hell do you know? Have you tried it yet? Just like how the hell do those people that whine "Only 2!? Waaaah!". How the hell do those people know that there's only two crafting skills!? Oh wait they don't! Just because you see two in the podcast dosen't there are only 2! Espcally when MBJ says "These skills... These skills, FOR NOW."As in THERE ARE PROBABLY MORE SKILLS ON THE WAY!

But go ahead... keep jumping to your conclusions. :rolleyes:

Unlikely there will be more. These are it sorry. Perhaps in an expansion. Id like to see random things like bakery and fishing lmao. Why cant i cook a cake :)

Id like to own a farm which i can havest loads of crops from as well. In morrowind there was a mod to actually have slave farms where you hire slaves and guards to protect from others etc. Not sure if it ever got ported to oblivion.

ManiaCCC

05-30-2008, 05:53 AM

I never said nodes and sitting in the city was good or bad. Nodes are bad cause everyone knows where they are and the respawn time so its just a race to see who gets there first. Camping in the city is obviously lame.

My point was the weeds/fungus/spores and the jewelry arn't as "war" related as a sword or armour. And the fact that talismans(so far at least) are only for "some armour and weapons. Only rare and powerful items can have a talisman attached to them" kinda limits there use. Unless you can buy those rare and powerful items from a merchant.

With this new and unique crafting system making swords and armour could of been fun and useful. The two crafting ones are already stated to have the ability for something truly unique and great to be made, so why not a new and unique dagger? As for balancing, well I don't mind if my stuff is subpar its usually easier to make subpar items then it is to raid and hope you get to roll on the good stuff that drops.

And notice I didn't say anything bad about Apoc(BOOZE!.....I hope), Scavenging/butcher(meh) or Magical Salvaging(niftyl little twist on an old game, probably be the one skill I take)

I understand your point but probably you didin't understand their point.. Why not Armor and Weapon crafting..

First..there is no way how to balance crafted gear and gear from bosses, RvR, renown etc.. If they would made crafted weapons and armor as good as other sets, than it would be unfair for non-crafters.. putting effort to get a gear and farm some materials and than make very powerfull gear.. If they would makecrafted gear worse than gear which can be obtained with normal progression, noone would do it. really not a good way.. I am happy they understoot it.

Second, your know how armor and weapon crafting look like in WoW for example.. 99% is trahs. 0.5% is usefull and 0.5% just BoP.. so weapon and armor crafteers would be making usless things just to level up and be able make something usefull for them and maybe sell few in AH..and than what? Nothing.. this system si grindy and not even effective for economy.

Now Imagine their system.. temporary buffs, consumable items, upgrades for weapons and armor (and I am sure we will see more)... this is paradise for crafters and great wave how make good economic flow. These items will be nedeed.. all the time.. so all crafters still will have work, can earn money, than spend to make even better items.. potions, weapon/armor upgrades etc.. this will be IMO great circle between crafters and playres which will use their items. IT will be very healthy for economy. .. no more trash making.

I understand that weapon / armor crafting may look interesting with this system.. but IMO.. there is no way how make this usefull, no grindy and balanced with other gear. But weapon/armor upgrades is great way how to involve players into weapon/armor crafting and it sill me balanced,usefull and not grindy..

Rhianni

05-30-2008, 06:42 AM

I really wanted something like Siegecrafting, or Woodworking in daoc. I would of liked to have been able to upgrade Siege gear or use wood to repair/upgrade keep doors so they last longer (waiting on help to arrive to defend).

I think they might still have this. They have mentioned that crafters can increase siege engines. Plus they said that this is just a list for now. Seeing as they have to stretch out info for several more months to keep the masses happy I think there is a good chance at what you are wanting :)

Vortex

05-30-2008, 07:29 AM

Meh im not too impressed with the crafting system, i for one enjoy node spotting - A MMO without nodes seems pretty sad.

Where's the problem...just think of it as mobile to semi-mobile nodes that hit you back. ;)

Trennet

05-30-2008, 03:20 PM

More on potions.

Potions will almost definitely persist through death. Evidence:

"Let's say you are going into battle, and you want the biggest, nastiest explosive potion you can make. So what you can do is you can play around with the ingredients and make a potion that may only last 30 minutes but does double damage. On the other hand, let's say you're going out for a night of PvE and you might want to make that same kind of potion but you're going to out for four or five hours. You play around with the ingredients and you make a potion that's a little less powerful but it'll last an entire night." (Mark Jacob)

Potions lasting through death + PvP game (including money earned from PvP) = consumable use becomes virtually required for serious players (like it is in WoW for raiders). Post TBC WoW, BGs are an uncompetitive joke of a grind and you can't use consumables in Arena so PvPers rarely use consumables. But pre-TBC, during the height of the rank system, using consumables was important (e.g. Free Action pots) and only tempered by the inability to earn cash during the rank grind. With money coming from PvP and WAR being all about competetive PvP, I fear that potions are going to be an annoying grind that hinders the "log in and fight" dynamic -- who wants to "log in and fight" when it means being severely handicapped?

Also note that MJs above example is a potion that lasts 30min and does +100% dmg. That is insane and I hope to god he was exaggerating immensely otherwise RvR becomes a consumables/money competition. Hell, even +10% dmg is HUGE and would be required for serious RvR. Note that in WoW, a top dmg consumable for a caster -- a Flask of Supreme Power -- buffs, for instance, the dmg of an Elemental shaman's Lightning Bolt (core nuke) by less than 4%.

Potion Costs:

Others have mentioned that, with 50% of the playerbase Apothecary, potions will be cheap. This is not true. Potion supply hinges on the number of crafters AND the supply of components. Imagine if, in WoW, half of all players were Alchemists yet there was the same supply of herbs that there is now; prices would go up due to the demand for components. Apothecary is one of 2 crafting professions, yet there are a variety of gathering professions. If component supply is not high -- and evenly so -- among all the gathering professions, then you can expect potions will not be cheap.

Potion Diversity:

The greater the potion diversity, the greater the risk of component imbalance -- particularly with so many different gathering professions providing the components for potions. A melee-buffing potion can easily end up costing significantly more than a magic-buffing one simply because the components for the latter end up being more abundant. We've seen this issue in WoW since release. It's a very tricky thing to implement correctly and, imho, is not worth the effort in a non-raiding focused game.

Moreover, potion diversity -- and thus component diversity -- tends to lead to monotonous griding: a specific class/spec will focus on, say, 2 potions and thus tend to have to repeatedly farm the same mobs for components. Boooring! E.g. a Choppa uses a melee-crit buffing potion that requires a seed from certain mobs to grow the required plant, thus the Choppa ends up monotonously farming the same seed-dropping mobs in the same zone, week after week after week. (Pre-TBC WoW had the dreaded Azhara zone that raiders scoured every day for 1.5 years for potion components -- not fun . . .)

Personally, I despise consumables and think that they are the worst grind in an MMO. And if you choose to ignore consumables, then you gimp yourself so they are expected among any serious guilds/groups.

Stiltzkin

05-30-2008, 10:57 PM

I like consumables... I get less bored with a game the more random variables that get thrown in. I understand your fear of a potion that doubles your damage but if you expect things to always be balanced and only relying on skill (not unfair advantages) I suggest you read about murder-ball scenarios and think practically about rank 4 morale abilities. I think in this game you will have moments when you feel OP and moments when you will feel underpowered. Just my guess but until they open beta I won't know.

I say let's give them the benefit of the doubt (till NDA lifts) on potion mats. Maybe the level of your salvaging/butchering will determine what items you get not what mobs you are doing it to. They seem to be concerned with not punishing people for trying to do something different. Like the fact that you can do whatever scenario you want instead of requiring you to do a specific one or all of them for that matter. No marks to turn in for PvP gear. I hope they do the same with every aspect of their game. They even give you 3 options on city sieges.

stiltskin

05-31-2008, 03:13 AM

I'm not discouraged , rather the opposite .

Potions are going to be fun to experiment with , and anyone can make them . Raw materials are going to be the main drive behind the AH economy , but simple economics will push more to be one type of gatherer is costs go up for certain materials.
Besides, since most item rewards are from quests , public quests , tome of knowledge etc , the 'quest for gold' prevalent in nearly every other mmo out there becomes almost irrelevant .

I see it more as a revelation that the main focus is on playing the game. Crafting has , for its main part been a detraction from a game , either total detraction as in EQ2 case , where you literally instance into the crafting area and can stay there indefinately with a character to pump out hundreds of vendor junk . Or , as in wow , a perfect gold farmer's dream ( you think its a coincidence 5 million chinese play ? , to do the boring stuff to sell to the 3 or 4 million western subscribers' ? )

The point is , the developers want us to play the game , get involved in the game , and most imprtant of all , to have fun doing so. Crafting in the past has been the equivalent of mowing the lawn , doing the washing up (insert any mundane chore here ) and be mindwashed into convincing you that its fun to do chores.
WAR is more like , we're going to have a BBQ party in the garden with lots of steak and beer , mow the lawn if you want to , but we dont mind if you do or not , we're going to have fun either way.

stiltskin

05-31-2008, 03:54 AM

I bet they mean rare and powerful items like green compared to gray/white in World of Warcraft. I doubt only blue/purple equivalent items will get these. and if that IS what they mean I agree that it will be very limited.

I think your analogy will be correct.
If you take the fact that to acquire the raw mats to make talismans involves the breaking down of 'green or better' items (similar to disenchanting) in the first place .
As a side note ( sorry to keep using wow references ) , as you rise in tier level from 1 to 4 , and assume that in tier 1 most items are grey/ white equivalent , tier2 you see your first greens, tier 3 a few 'blues' and only in tier 4 will you see purple stuff , then the Devs have put in place a natural reason to progress and discourage any idea of twinkage from the start , which can only be a good thing.

Stiltzkin

05-31-2008, 06:17 AM

I wouldn't worry about twinks. Killing players gives you XP.

Alaz

05-31-2008, 12:32 PM

The way I look at it, with talismins only being viable for good equipment most people will be Apothocary's or at least a heck of a lot will which will make potions more common. Now either they'll be so common and the price will stay low so that even without the profession you can keep up with their common usage in RvR -OR- the good ones will be expensive to make and only really clever to use in long bouts of pve where you don't expect to die for a long time.

I hope for the former really, sure it sucks if somebody wins a fight based solely on the fact he made his own potions but if they're that cheap/common then everything is still fair.

Zeikfried

05-31-2008, 02:10 PM

When I think about this system, I think it goes well with the game play. This game is about RvR and War. It's not about looking pretty with all your man made items that took you about 100+ hours to create.

When I refllect back to my previous MMO's, FFXi, UO, WoW. All but WoW provided me a great experience in crafting. However, when I reached my GM status in UO and 100+5 Woodworking +60 in all other crafts in FFXI, I realized I was well behind my friends when it came to the other aspects of the game. Such as PVP (UO), and raids in FFXI. Infact I never made it to level 75 status on my Taru for FFXI.

I would much rather have a system like this than the endless grind to crafting perfection. Simply because if there are people grinding their crafts that means they're not doing any RVR, combat, public quests, or raids in Warhammer. And that can hamper the game in those aspects.

"Hey Joe, Nina, Flynn, Josh, Bill! We're about to sack this keep, we need your help!"

"Sorry man, But I am busy crafting, only 10,000 more skill-ups to go."
"Me too."
"Me three."
"Don't ask I have to catch up with them."
"...."
- Z

Tonzin

06-01-2008, 01:03 AM

I would bet some in game money that there could potentially be some harmful affects tacked onto potions when you make something super strong, you know for game balance.

Just as an example to illustrate what I mean...lets say you can make a potion that increases your spell damage by 150 for 5 minutes, but as a downside to having such a powerful potion they reduce your armor by 200 or increase your cast time by 0.5 seconds. These are just assumptions I am making, but I would bet that since it is an experimental type craft there will be some negative effects to balance the reallllly good ones that everyone will want. After all, how many chemists can say they have nothing but good results when randomly mixing chemicals o.O

Zeldias

06-01-2008, 02:30 AM

I'm pretty excited about the crafting options. Looks like there's going to be some interdependence so that I won't just be able to go with cultivation and apothecary to make potions forever by myself. The experimentation is just going to be fantastic, because I love that mad scientist feeling I get when I think about playing with different items to produce a good effect.

To be honest, all they'd have to do at this point is promise some more crafting professions to come later and give me a mini-game experience like EQ2's crafting and I'd be in heaven. I hated EQ2, but I crafted and played the AH for hours, and that's something I never do. Al for the immense joy of using my skills to craft the best damn skills I could. It was a blast.

I don't think the potting up is going to give an incredibly dramatic edge. I'd bet that the ingredients that'll be most useful in PvP will also come with some drawback, while potions that give good buffs for increasing damage over time won't. So there'd be some combinations of potions that would be great for raids and PvE, but not so much for PvP, and conversely, there'd be combinations that'd work great for PvP (because they increase burst damage or something) but not so great in PvE since you generally want reliability over spike damage there.

I'm feeling optimistic! :)

Archerion

06-01-2008, 02:33 AM

I hope people don't write down recipes on some website so that every nub can run around making uber potions.

Zeikfried

06-01-2008, 08:58 AM

I hope people don't write down recipes on some website so that every nub can run around making uber potions.

Meh, you know it's going to happen so get ready for it.

- Z

Zeikfried

06-01-2008, 09:02 AM

killuall

06-02-2008, 05:40 AM

personally i like the crafting system mostly cuz i like da orcy way of doing fings, bash'em together till it works. Now i am dissapointed in only the talisman making (i can steal all my shiny bits from the stunties) and Apothercary.....potions just arent orcy. What i would realy love too see is a smithing profession, which would epitomise my character for me. Black orcs make all thier weaponry and armor and i most certainly want to rip chucnks of metal, and cool spiky bits of my slain opponents and make some personal nifty lookin axes or shields much like
http://http://store.miniwargaming.com/images/P/newimagethumb-01.gif (i espesially like the shield)

i most certainly to hope that smithing is added as a profession.

orcs iz best

logicalmayhem

06-03-2008, 05:25 AM

after thinking about this more a better solution is going to be much simpler

1 crafting 2 gathering.

so you can chose either crafting profession and its skill and then either scavenging or butchery.

then simply for expansions you just have 2 add professions in pairs so a Crafting and the gathering skill that matches it

usaly when anything is this simple and el agent it just makes sense

Rhianni

06-03-2008, 05:46 AM

From what they seem to be saying, I don't think they're going to make crafting as time consuming and deep as EQ. They don't want you to be sitting at the AH or a crafting hub to crafts long hours, or probably even working the AH. Otherwise if anyone could work the AH for gold or items, I am sure goldfarmers will be able to do the same and exploit it.

I can see the overall time being the same but it wont feel like it....
Cultivating a flower you do it in plots. Start it then go off and pve or rvr. You arent tied to staying in a location and crafting.
Plus you can bring the parts with you and when you have delays in RvR (defending a keep and waiting for them to break the door down, or waiting for other groups to catch up before attacking a location) you could craft out a few potions. This system is looking like it can fill in the time gaps nicely.

Stiltzkin

06-03-2008, 08:32 AM

I hope people don't write down recipes on some website so that every nub can run around making uber potions.
Why? That's just mean. What do you have against teaching the ignorant? Their failures affect the whole realm so it's in your benefit to teach "nubs"

XPWaRRioR

06-03-2008, 11:26 AM

I really don't think that potion buffs persist through death. At least not all.

Because according to this article:

"What are we doing tonight?" "Well, we're just going to run a bunch of scenarios. We're going to be doing RvR." In RvR, you don't survive very long, it's just a fact of life. You die every five minutes. It's fun, but you die every five minutes! So, it would be pointless for me to use my ingredients that lengthen the effect. Every time I revive, I take another potion. So, instead I'm going to concentrate on adding extra potency in, or maybe, concentrate on adding ingredients that will make more potions. Conversely if I'm going to solo, if I'm going to try and get a couple of levels tonight, do a couple of quests, maybe join some other people in PQ. I'm not really expecting to die all that often - it's PvE! So, I might concentrate on my ingredients that super-lengthen the length of the effect. Instead of making intelligence by ten, for ten minutes, I might make intelligence for ten, for two hours. In which case, I only need to drink one, and I can save all my ingredients for when we go RvRing and make the short powerful ones."

from http://www.massively.com/2008/06/02/massively-goes-to-war-insights-into-warhammers-crafting-system-2/

it seems, that everytime you die, you pop a new pot. Which is why, in RvR, you use more powerful pots that lasts only for a short duration.

whereas for pve, you wouldn't want to die a lot, so you make pots that lasts for a longer time.

Anyway, about the less individuality thingy because of few professions options, I think the Tome of Knowledge, masteries, tactics, morale skills pretty much conpensates for it.

To be honest, I would much rather prefer a smaller option if it means lesser gold farmers, auction house monopolizers, and the annoying people who play the game just to get rich and spoil the economy and does nothing to contribute to the war effort. Just my two cents. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: Please, one gathering skill per player is MORE than enough. I will really hate it when I have to compete with a player for both scavenging and butchering resources. At the end of the day, these players with two gathering skills will be the rich ones while the ones who are really offering the services suffer.

logicalmayhem

06-03-2008, 09:56 PM

Edit: Please, one gathering skill per player is MORE than enough. I will really hate it when I have to compete with a player for both scavenging and butchering resources. At the end of the day, these players with two gathering skills will be the rich ones while the ones who are really offering the services suffer.

i think evry player should be able to craft properly (and by properly i mean dont have to buy most of your ingredents from ah just the few you dont have)

if you have looked at the craffting system
cultivation = potions (note 1)
salvaging = talismans (note 2)
butcher/ scavenger = $ to atempt to buy shards or herbs (which IMO is lame)

so 1 gathering 2 crafting means evryone can loot (at least half the mobs they fight) and evryone can craft

the other option is combing professions see note 1 or 2 into 1 profeshion and then let evryone ither scavenge or butcher

Miranger

06-05-2008, 03:05 PM

Have we forgotten were still 5 months away Millions of changes to the gameplay, graphics, mechanics, Crafting, Classes and desing.

So lets just wait and see 2 would be a huge mistake and they know that

Ciberclaw

06-12-2008, 12:56 PM

(...)
The video does suggest that buffing potions will persist through death (MJ said that if were going to RvR for 2hrs then you would make 2hr duration consumables.) Imagine if 50% of WoW players were alchemists and elixirs lasted through death (like flasks).
(...)

Wrong!

"What are we doing tonight?" "Well, we're just going to run a bunch of scenarios. We're going to be doing RvR." In RvR, you don't survive very long, it's just a fact of life. You die every five minutes. It's fun, but you die every five minutes! So, it would be pointless for me to use my ingredients that lengthen the effect. Every time I revive, I take another potion. So, instead I'm going to concentrate on adding extra potency in, or maybe, concentrate on adding ingredients that will make more potions. Conversely if I'm going to solo, if I'm going to try and get a couple of levels tonight, do a couple of quests, maybe join some other people in PQ. I'm not really expecting to die all that often - it's PvE! So, I might concentrate on my ingredients that super-lengthen the length of the effect. Instead of making intelligence by ten, for ten minutes, I might make intelligence for ten, for two hours. In which case, I only need to drink one, and I can save all my ingredients for when we go RvRing and make the short powerful ones."

From: http://www.massively.com/2008/06/02/massively-goes-to-war-insights-into-warhammers-crafting-system-2/

Bah i apologize for posting redundant information, XPWaRRioR (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/member.php?u=23289) already posted the link.

porcu12345

07-03-2008, 04:04 AM

1: Why cant both sides use potions? Wouldnt that put things back on an even balance? I think you are mistaken that only alchemists used potions and elixirs in WoW. They arent exactly soulbound. Also, 1 gold cost potions arent the driving force for gold farmers come on now.

Erm, what potions are you buying? LOL.
80 gold per flask on my old server.

Griever

07-03-2008, 04:35 AM

I don't know why so many people are : ( about it, comments from beta testers said they loved it.

Mel

07-03-2008, 09:43 AM

Wrong!

"What are we doing tonight?" "Well, we're just going to run a bunch of scenarios. We're going to be doing RvR." In RvR, you don't survive very long, it's just a fact of life. You die every five minutes. It's fun, but you die every five minutes! So, it would be pointless for me to use my ingredients that lengthen the effect. Every time I revive, I take another potion. So, instead I'm going to concentrate on adding extra potency in, or maybe, concentrate on adding ingredients that will make more potions. Conversely if I'm going to solo, if I'm going to try and get a couple of levels tonight, do a couple of quests, maybe join some other people in PQ. I'm not really expecting to die all that often - it's PvE! So, I might concentrate on my ingredients that super-lengthen the length of the effect. Instead of making intelligence by ten, for ten minutes, I might make intelligence for ten, for two hours. In which case, I only need to drink one, and I can save all my ingredients for when we go RvRing and make the short powerful ones."

From: http://www.massively.com/2008/06/02/massively-goes-to-war-insights-into-warhammers-crafting-system-2/

Bah i apologize for posting redundant information, XPWaRRioR (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/member.php?u=23289) already posted the link.

Id just like to point that if potions dont last through death, noone is gonna bother with them in heavy pvp. Thats exactly how Wow worked, and buff pots during pvp was a great way to drive you bankrupt, and insane... And they didnt make enough of a difference to really turn the tide anyway.

caelitus

07-03-2008, 09:49 AM

couldn't disagree more with the OP

1. Potions and consumables rule in PVP, they allow you to stay in the fight longer, and also give you more flexibility with your build. They add another layer to the game...

2. I think 2 types of crafting is perfect: consumables, and things to make your gear better. I hate crafting for the most part, unless it's something that I can use right away. I dislike having to craft useless widgets until I can make something useful.

Also we don't know if there are sub-categories within the 2 professions. All we can do at this point is speculate.

Phayde

07-03-2008, 10:11 AM

1) Well benefits of crafting are supposed to be by design not huge advantages. Making consuming optional in essence unless your a power gamer.

2) I'm not sure why everyone are disapointed by lack of crafting professions, very few games enjoy crafting, very very few. Most hate it... so whats the point of putting a ridiculously involved crafting system in a game? It's not going to mae anyone buy it who normaly wouldnt. Enough "not enough crafting for me" crafting profession threads imo.

Mylar

07-08-2008, 02:55 PM

Personally, I hate consumable use in PvP

Good thing this isn't a PvP game.

And if DAoC is any example of how an RvR game uses consumables, you are in for quite a shock.

Start with rams for breaking down doors, wood for repairing doors, trebs for causing AE damage, and Ballistae for dropping other siege gear. Then move on to costs for upgrading and maintaining a keep and guards. Ammo if you are a physical ranged class, and of course repairs (I think Mythic said no armor repairs in WAR).

Now toss in tidbits that they have already mentioned with WAR like capturable guild standards.

RvR uses consumables... Potions are not likely to be the consumable with the highest cost or largest impact on the flow of the battle.

Mel

07-08-2008, 03:03 PM

Good thing this isn't a PvP game.

And if DAoC is any example of how an RvR game uses consumables, you are in for quite a shock.

Start with rams for breaking down doors, wood for repairing doors, trebs for causing AE damage, and Ballistae for dropping other siege gear. Then move on to costs for upgrading and maintaining a keep and guards. Ammo if you are a physical ranged class, and of course repairs (I think Mythic said no armor repairs in WAR).

Now toss in tidbits that they have already mentioned with WAR like capturable guild standards.

RvR uses consumables... Potions are not likely to be the consumable with the highest cost or largest impact on the flow of the battle.

As I understand it, almost none of what you mentioned is in War. Doors arent repaired, ranged dont need ammo, but I think you do have to buy siege weapons to use. I dont think you spend anything on upgrading a keep, at least Ive heard no mention of it.