Crafting ROCKS

[vanza001]

We've had so many crafting sucks topics I feel compelled to express my absolute joy with this system. It makes so much sense that many familiar with crafting from other games are having a tough time wrapping their head around it so here it goes.

1 of each type of skill, crafting and gathering, per player is GREAT. This produces a community of trading among players and means no one characters is self sufficient.

Only 2 crafting skills total. This I was a tad disappointed with but it makes sense for this game. This game is not about crafting. Its about RvR. Not every player should feel compelled to craft. If you don't like either of these two skills, don't craft, just gather. Hell don't do any if you don't want to. The beauty of this system is that you don't have to craft (or put too much time into it) at all to benefit from the system. There will be an economy around the production of these items and you will be able to purchase them.

If you think about it one of the gathering skill is much like a crafting skill in that you produce rather than gather (growing plants).

I love that you can experiment with your creations. Yes there are recipes, but not in that you must have the recipe and all the components. If I don't put the time into it that a pro does I won't have great items, but I will still create them with whatever I have or can find. If I want to be a pro, and I'm sure there will be many, I can find the best combination keep a good stock of them and produce many and probably sell many at a profit.

I was kinda, like you, disappointed with only two skills, but I've thought about it and whether or not we get a 3rd, this system ROCKS and makes great sense for this already awesome game.

[Stiltzkin]

I agree. I don't think we will only have 2 crafting skills at launch tho, in the video he said "for now" and also I think he mentioned discussing others in later podcasts. If there is only 2 at release I won't be upset but they've been adamant about a crafting concept based around upgrading siege weapons. I think it makes perfect sense and I hope to see it get implemented. I like the idea that if i don't want to pay for mats or grind them out I can choose to use what I already have and get a weaker item. This is my favorite benefit over a recipe based system.

[Gunter]

I think there will at least be a modify siege craft.

[Saint Rising]

Like others, I highly doubt there will only be two crafting professions at launch. I expect that they'll make atleast two more, but hey, we'll still be playing the game. Like an above poster said, the game is about RvR, not crafting. :P

[Esraymuk]

This crafting system sucks pretty hard tbh. How exactly does this system prevent "making stuff for levels"? I'm still going to be making X amount of "Low level talisman Y" in order to get to a higher level, and to progress from there I will be making "X amount of talisman Z" to level up, etc, until I reach the level where I can make useful talismans.

Now, I don't really mind making useless crap to level, but I really don't see the excitement of making a few talismans and potions - it's all supporting stuff, if you see what I mean. Theres no MEAT to it, it's not possible to make some really useful stuff, e.g. powerful weapons. It can't be that difficult to make a system whereby some of hte really really powerful weapons can only be crafted, using ingredients dropped from powerful mobs, e.g. the king.

The only thing innovative about this system is the lack of thought and effort put into it. It seems like an aside rather than a real part of the game. All the "you're a soldier not a craftsman so you shouldn't be able to make armour/weapons" is such BS, and it's essentially just an excuse to not make a proper crafting system.

[Unstoppable]

I personally really like the crafting system and can't wait to start playing the game. :p

[vanza001]

This crafting system sucks pretty hard tbh. How exactly does this system prevent "making stuff for levels"? I'm still going to be making X amount of "Low level talisman Y" in order to get to a higher level, and to progress from there I will be making "X amount of talisman Z" to level up, etc, until I reach the level where I can make useful talismans.

Now, I don't really mind making useless crap to level, but I really don't see the excitement of making a few talismans and potions - it's all supporting stuff, if you see what I mean. Theres no MEAT to it, it's not possible to make some really useful stuff, e.g. powerful weapons. It can't be that difficult to make a system whereby some of hte really really powerful weapons can only be crafted, using ingredients dropped from powerful mobs, e.g. the king.

The only thing innovative about this system is the lack of thought and effort put into it. It seems like an aside rather than a real part of the game. All the "you're a soldier not a craftsman so you shouldn't be able to make armour/weapons" is such BS, and it's essentially just an excuse to not make a proper crafting system.

Either you make all armor and weapons mundane and require some element of crafting or you make crafting worthless when you try to make items to compete with items droped/earned through RvR. In order to make items on par with stuff earned through RvR you'd have to make it much more difficult to craft anything of value and thus making the system a grind and NOT FUN. Trust me, its better, go play UO or Eve or Pirates of the Burning Sea if you want a completely crafting driven economy. WAR is for RvR and PvE as we've seen in EQ and yes WoW. This crafting suits this game PERFECTLY.

[Esraymuk]

Either you make all armor and weapons mundane and require some element of crafting or you make crafting worthless when you try to make items to compete with items droped/earned through RvR. In order to make items on par with stuff earned through RvR you'd have to make it much more difficult to craft anything of value and thus making the system a grind and NOT FUN. Trust me, its better, go play UO or Eve or Pirates of the Burning Sea if you want a completely crafting driven economy. WAR is for RvR and PvE as we've seen in EQ and yes WoW. This crafting suits this game PERFECTLY.

This crafting is almost NON-EXISTANT:S, how can it suit the game? I'm not interested in a crafting driven economy, but cmon, this system is as shallow as hell.

As for the "grind", it'll exist just as much in this system. You're basically grinding to get mats to make stuff, i don't see how it is any different.

In fact, you should probably read my post, since I addressed the armour/weapon issue, along with the "grind issue".

[Robbie11r1]

Once again I have been fooled by a thread's title. I was inent on crafting different types of rocks and ores. Pet rocks anyone?

[Pballs]

This crafting system sucks pretty hard tbh. How exactly does this system prevent "making stuff for levels"? I'm still going to be making X amount of "Low level talisman Y" in order to get to a higher level, and to progress from there I will be making "X amount of talisman Z" to level up, etc, until I reach the level where I can make useful talismans.

Now, I don't really mind making useless crap to level, but I really don't see the excitement of making a few talismans and potions - it's all supporting stuff, if you see what I mean. Theres no MEAT to it, it's not possible to make some really useful stuff, e.g. powerful weapons. It can't be that difficult to make a system whereby some of hte really really powerful weapons can only be crafted, using ingredients dropped from powerful mobs, e.g. the king.

The only thing innovative about this system is the lack of thought and effort put into it. It seems like an aside rather than a real part of the game. All the "you're a soldier not a craftsman so you shouldn't be able to make armour/weapons" is such BS, and it's essentially just an excuse to not make a proper crafting system.

First of all, the way you create better items is by finding better materials, not by increasing skill,crafting wise. And being able to make the most powerful weapons/armor in the game would make crafting not feel like crafting, but a grind. Plus talismans and potions give you an edge in battle without being op. For all we know, the potions and talismans could be really powerful.

[Rhianni]

I spent way to much time and money on dyes in DAOC. The whole cultivating a seed, picking dirt, picking how to take care of it and then you make an item that is then used to make the final potion. Sounds like its going to be more interesting then buy 50 flowers of the Ah. buy 50 empty bottles. create 50 potions.

Esraymuk: The system is shallow? I think the system is brilliant.
There has almost always been the problem of crafting vs drop equipment. If crafting si better than why bother going into dungeons? If dungeons are better, which is the far more common of the two, then you have people crafting just for the sake of crafting.

"The only thing innovative about this system is the lack of thought and effort put into it."
Like the system or hate the system is one thing but you are flat out wrong that they havent put any thought or effort into this system.

[Esraymuk]

There has almost always been the problem of crafting vs drop equipment. If crafting si better than why bother going into dungeons? If dungeons are better, which is the far more common of the two, then you have people crafting just for the sake of crafting.

Please read my original post! I have commented on this issue and an easy way to resolve it.

Like the system or hate the system is one thing but you are flat out wrong that they havent put any thought or effort into this system.

I apologise for my oversight. They have put very LITTLE thought or effort into this system, which is evident by the fact that theres absolutely nothing unique about this system, or "new". It's not even "evolution", it's "devolution"; even WoW with it's relatively shallow crafting system is more interesting than this; at least you can make some interesting and crucial stuff - i.e. crafting is a CRUCIAL part of the game - you NEED it to succeed.

[Pballs]

I think this new crafting system is going to greatly help the player economy, crafting materials won't really inflate since everyone is pretty much going to need the same general materials for every craft.

[Odiamh]

I'm liking the idea of this style of crafting system. Do I want more actual crafting careers? Yes they would be nice, but if they are not in launch I wont be to upset.

I am really enjoying the idea of experimentation. It feels more natural then picking up a recipe and being told what to do over and over again. While there will be some sort of grinding for materials it will be from mobs that your already killing so why not do something with the useless corpse.

I'm looking forward to being an apothecary and cultivator myself.

Seeds for the Seed God!

[Rhianni]

Crafting is a crucial... sorry.... CRUCIAL part of WoW and you NEED it to succeed? I admit thats certainly an interesting opinion I had never heard before and fully disagree with.

I read your part about drops from a monster being used in crafting. That does help cover up with things but that still places crafted items at the top tier. Mythic is trying to devalue the economy and not make money so important. That would place a heavy emphasis back on crafting. It reminds me of EQ2 and the gouging alchemists gave every other crafter because you had to go to them for what you needed.

[vanza001]

It isn't grinding because you create useful stuff when you create stuff, not trash. Though you still need to create stuff to level up... did you want it given to you? You guys and your loose definitions.

I say you would need crafting in this game if everyone could have all skills because in end game RvR without it you'd be gimped. You don't need anything in WoW but the next item to grind towards, LOL.

[Pballs]

I say you would need crafting in this game if everyone could have all skills because in end game RvR without it you'd be gimped. You don't need anything in WoW but the next item to grind towards, LOL.

Yeah, in endgame high level potions and talismans could mean victory or defeat, but that's just speculation.

[Argo]

A reason I'm liking WAR better than WoW is, while items do help, the PvP and RvR will be mostly based upon skill of the player. Items will not play an indefinite part of the whole game like WoW because everyone will be able to have a chance at getting the best gear at, quite presumably, their own pace. The best gear is mixed up from both PvP and PvE. (Link below tells that gear won't play a major factor.)

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38002


(http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38002)So that being said, I'm sure crafting will be awesome and also help the player, though not to the point where they're gods on the battlefield. You don't need it to succeed because the game is relying on your own skills and not some one-button-win trinket.

[Ununseptium]

I also LOVE the crafting system just showing me support for its awsomeness theres realy nothing else to say about it that hasnt already been said.

[Eske Kjaer]

Esravmuk is an idiot. Sorry dude but you've got things way wrong.

It's not a grind because you aren't just making things you don't need. Well, Tallisman making might be, since only certain things can use tallisamans, but apothecary isn't a grind at all. You make a potion, you level up your crafting skill, then you use that potion to help you kill people. It'll be a necessary skill if you want to compete with the best.

[ManiaCCC]

Esravmuk is an idiot. Sorry dude but you've got things way wrong.



While I agree he cleary didn't understand concept of war crafting at all, I don't think offending him was really needed.

[Ironklak Splattadorf]

It reminds me of EQ2 and the gouging alchemists gave every other crafter because you had to go to them for what you needed.

Its too bad that class interdependancy didnt last...mainly because I played an alchemist and it was fun trading tempers, washes, resins and inks for X amount of non-pristines for my store and a pristine for my collection of other crafters wares. Tell you the truth I dont know how other crafters made money, but then again I didnt really care bout their money. As far as crafting goes Eq2 is one the few systems that truely ROCKS....
Much like Esravmuk I was also expecting something on par with the better crafting systems like EQ2 and Eve especially with words like revolutionary/evolutionary thrown into the description of WAR's crafting.

So if WoW is really your only exposure to crafting in MMo's then you wont understand what point Esravmuk is trying to make when he says WaR's crafting system is de-evolutionary. It really is a step backwards in comparison to some of the better systems that have been out there for half a decade and longer.

[checkthis5000]

I agree. I don't think we will only have 2 crafting skills at launch tho, in the video he said "for now" and also I think he mentioned discussing others in later podcasts. If there is only 2 at release I won't be upset but they've been adamant about a crafting concept based around upgrading siege weapons. I think it makes perfect sense and I hope to see it get implemented. I like the idea that if i don't want to pay for mats or grind them out I can choose to use what I already have and get a weaker item. This is my favorite benefit over a recipe based system.

This makes me think. Since this podcast was grouped as 2 crafting, 4 gathering. I'm wondering if they add another 2 crafting, if they'll add another 4 gathering, and group them that way?

Would be interesting, and would definitely solve all crafting woes.

[Gloovish]

Esraymuk (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/member.php?u=6257) I can see where you're coming from. You seem to want crafting to be very hardcore. Other games allow you to craft powerful items and to prevent mass production they put in barriers such as requiring a large time investment. On the other hand WAR's crafting looks like it will be more casual. WAR's crafting is based on experimentation instead of outgrinding everyone on the server to be the server's master crafter. I know it's not what you expected Esraymuk but I think this system fits WAR quite well.

It can't be that difficult to make a system whereby some of hte really really powerful weapons can only be crafted, using ingredients dropped from powerful mobs, e.g. the king.
That would just add an unnecessary hassle. You'll need to find a crafter to transform your drops into gear instead of getting gear right away.

[Odiamh]

As a side note. I have read that greenskins (unoffically) reproduce through spores of some sort. Anyone else support the growing of greenskins lol. Or perhaps some special spores that might only drop of greenskin players.


Ah here is the link to the wiki...its under reproduction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcs_&_Goblins


Anyway just ideas I thought of on the way home this evening.

[Archive]

I apologise for my oversight. They have put very LITTLE thought or effort into this system, which is evident by the fact that theres absolutely nothing unique about this system, or "new". It's not even "evolution", it's "devolution"; even WoW with it's relatively shallow crafting system is more interesting than this; at least you can make some interesting and crucial stuff - i.e. crafting is a CRUCIAL part of the game - you NEED it to succeed.

That's exactly the point. I hate to be crass and say this isn't Warhammer: Age of Crafting, but well, it's not. The revolutionary thing about this crafting system isnt the fact that it is "relatively shallow" it's that it is incredibly shallow, but still remarkably fun.

Crafting isn't the focus of the game, war is. If that strikes you as just a feeble excuse to not make crafting a required task, then I just don't know what to tell you. Personally, I like the idea of having crafting being a fun aside, something to do because it's fun to experiment, rather than a task forced upon me just to level the playing field.

This crafting system gets a thumbs up from me.

[BadHat]

I was going to post but Archive just said exactly what I wanted to.

+1 :p

[Esraymuk]

Esravmuk is an idiot. Sorry dude but you've got things way wrong.

It's not a grind because you aren't just making things you don't need. Well, Tallisman making might be, since only certain things can use tallisamans, but apothecary isn't a grind at all. You make a potion, you level up your crafting skill, then you use that potion to help you kill people. It'll be a necessary skill if you want to compete with the best.

It IS a grind. THINK before you post. What do you think you're going to do with the large batch of potions that are too low level for you? Lets say you take up whatever the potion making craft is called. You level from 10-20 in the game, not stopping to develop your craft. Now, that's a situation almost all players will likely be in at some point - outleveling their crafting profession. You now stop and catch up, by grinding for or otherwise acquiring large batches of low level ingredients to make some low level potions, which by your level are almost useless. Do you think these potions are going to help you much? Most people will probably just vendorise them.

WAR's crafting is based on experimentation instead of outgrinding everyone on the server to be the server's master crafter. I know it's not what you expected Esraymuk but I think this system fits WAR quite well.

It won't be based on experimentation. It'll be based on the experimentation of a hardcore few, who'll then write up the potion "recipes" online, and then everyone will go refer to them. Someone will probably even calculate the percentage chance of an "uber potion" being made when one combines certain ingredients, as MBJ explains in the recent podcast. And then, after that, it'll basically become a grind as much as any other crafting system in order to get materials, but with an end result that lacks any "oomph" whatsoever.

Crafting isn't the focus of the game, war is. If that strikes you as just a feeble excuse to not make crafting a required task, then I just don't know what to tell you.

WAR is "about" being an MMORPG as much as it is being about "war". World of Warcraft is about war...craft, I guess. Everquest is about ...questing I guess. But that isn't an excuse to disregard the other aspects of a game that makes it interesting. If WoW was just about fighting other players and monsters, with all the extra rubbish, such as griffon rides, crafting, etc taken out, it would be very shallow and boring. Such will be the case with WAR if they continue to strip out stuff using contrived reasons.


Can you people not see past the fascade that is the description of this crafting system? It's not a grind - yes it IS!, for the reasons I have explained in my original post in this thread. It's not a recipe based system - yes it IS again! Read this post again if you can't see why. And to top all of that, the system itself is much MUCH worse than most systems that have come before it, and despite that they're calling it revolutionary. It is, in fact, devolutionary.

[Rear_Assault]

Crafting ROCKS

Why would anyone want to craft rocks? It's not like you can wear them as armour or drink them like potions :rolleyes:

[Hellmaaf]

Crafting isn't the focus of the game, war is. If that strikes you as just a feeble excuse to not make crafting a required task, then I just don't know what to tell you. Personally, I like the idea of having crafting being a fun aside, something to do because it's fun to experiment, rather than a task forced upon me just to level the playing field.

Archive, in an ideal and exciting replication, war should be a multi-faceted endeavor. Those uninformed multitude who believe it is simply about bashing, zapping or shooting the nearest enemy and hoping fewer of your own side die than the other is significantly deluded. A diverse, complex and subtle system underlies every war, this is best reflected in game by integrating a significant number of other features necessary for success. These features are important and cannot be rightly considered "on the side," if they could be considered as such they would be of little worth.

[Rhianni]

It IS a grind. THINK before you post. What do you think you're going to do with the large batch of potions that are too low level for you? Lets say you take up whatever the potion making craft is called. You level from 10-20 in the game, not stopping to develop your craft. Now, that's a situation almost all players will likely be in at some point - outleveling their crafting profession. You now stop and catch up, by grinding for or otherwise acquiring large batches of low level ingredients to make some low level potions, which by your level are almost useless. Do you think these potions are going to help you much? Most people will probably just vendorise them.
There is no way there can be a system that everything crafted by a person can be fully useable and useful. If anything less than that is a grind than your definition is way to high.



It won't be based on experimentation. It'll be based on the experimentation of a hardcore few, who'll then write up the potion "recipes" online, and then everyone will go refer to them. Someone will probably even calculate the percentage chance of an "uber potion" being made when one combines certain ingredients, as MBJ explains in the recent podcast. And then, after that, it'll basically become a grind as much as any other crafting system in order to get materials, but with an end result that lacks any "oomph" whatsoever. If you want to skip the experimentation, research what others have done, then cry that there is no experimentation thats on you not the system. Players have to take some responsibility for what they want out of fun. If a person wants to experiment they can. If they dont want to they can go hit websites and get the answers.
We get it though. You dont like the system thats fine. Judging from the posts in this and other threads it appears to be supported by a majority of the community.

Its a grind to get the materials? Oh come on. Do you want the materials to drop out of an atm in the city for you? Yeah you might have to go out and get the items. From your definitions going and killing anything for exp is a grind.

[Esraymuk]

What, so you call making 50 level 5 potions when you're level 40 "not a grind" and "usable"? Your definitions appear to be way off.

As for experimentation - sure, they'll be a few people such as you who'll have fun from messing around, but most people will just look up the recipies - the system may succeed for the few, such as you, but will fail for the masses. Nobody serious about PvP is going to waste their time experimenting, however fun it might be, when their peers have been looking up the combinations for the "uber potions" that give them an edge.

[Archive]

Archive, in an ideal and exciting replication, war should be a multi-faceted endeavor. Those uninformed multitude who believe it is simply about bashing, zapping or shooting the nearest enemy and hoping fewer of your own side die than the other is significantly deluded. A diverse, complex and subtle system underlies every war, this is best reflected in game by integrating a significant number of other features necessary for success. These features are important and cannot be rightly considered "on the side," if they could be considered as such they would be of little worth.

Oh I agree with you, war is an lot more complex than simply killing the other guy. Successful wars are based on logistics, planning, technology, training, and morale far more than on kill counts. In WWII Soviet Russia had more military casualties than any two other combined nations in the war, and yet, they still managed to be on the winning side. More than that, in less than a generation they became one of the worlds' two superpowers, dispite their losses. Obviously, kill counts don't mean much in the real world, let alone in a game world where death is cheap.

Now you could make the arguement that crafting better gear being a way to introduce technology into the game, and in a sense it is. After all, people will be spending time off the battlefield experimenting and trying to develop the right tool for the job. Esraymuk predicts that this will result in just a few potions being made, based on developed recipes, but I disagree. I think a huge variaty of potions will be made, for a several reasons.

Firstly, the perfect tool for the job is largly dependent on the job being done. Sure, a potion that increases hp is always useful, but if you are going to go into a pve dungeon where you know almost all the enemies do fire damage, why not make a potion that increases elemental resists instead? And if you know you'll be down there for only a little while, give it a short duration and bump up its power instead. My point is that custom made tools will be more effective than pre-designed ones.

Secondly, even if a player does decide to make a player-made recipe, he might not have all the parts he needs to make the recipe exactly the way he's suppose to, but he could always make a change or two to make something similar, that uses cheaper, more plentiful parts, thereby avoiding the rush for the "super recipe".

Thirdly, people are going to have extra mats that aren't required for any of the player-made recipes, so what are they going to do with them? Mix them together and use them anyway is what, no reason to let the mats go to waste.

Eventually, every possible combination will be made, codified, and stuck online of course, but that's hardly anything new. After all, the same thing is going to happen to every quest, location, tome unlock, and scrap of gear as well. But just because it's there doesn't mean that every player will use those resources to play the game, which brings me to my fourth and final point. Even after every combination is known, people will still experiment, because they want to find out for themselves, because learning is fun, and that's more important than having the best of everything.

[vanza001]

What, so you call making 50 level 5 potions when you're level 40 "not a grind" and "usable"? Your definitions appear to be way off.

As for experimentation - sure, they'll be a few people such as you who'll have fun from messing around, but most people will just look up the recipes - the system may succeed for the few, such as you, but will fail for the masses. Nobody serious about PvP is going to waste their time experimenting, however fun it might be, when their peers have been looking up the combinations for the "uber potions" that give them an edge.

If you're making level 5 potions at 40, thats on YOU, and they are still useful because you can sell them to level 5 players! OMG relying other people in an online game! BLASPHEMY. Comon dude... calm down for a second and think about this game as a whole.

Not all players are hardcore. Not everyone is 'serious about pvp.' Because of this fact and other small details there will be a healthy economy of crafting resources and end products and THAT is revolutionary. And all those hardcore people can do exactly what you said, treat it just like a recipe based grind to make the best stuff. That is what they WANT. This way there are some hardcore crafters to supply the realm with those goods only they could create after all that time and effort. Economy is what makes or breaks a crafting system. I don't even know what you could want from a crafting system. You seem to be arguing that it is everything they say its not, a grind, not fun, recipe based, etc. etc. You are not seeing that in fact it is everything they say it is.

[Esraymuk]

If you're making level 5 potions at 40, thats on YOU, and they are still useful because you can sell them to level 5 players! OMG relying other people in an online game! BLASPHEMY. Comon dude... calm down for a second and think about this game as a whole.

Not all players are hardcore. Not everyone is 'serious about pvp.' Because of this fact and other small details there will be a healthy economy of crafting resources and end products and THAT is revolutionary. And all those hardcore people can do exactly what you said, treat it just like a recipe based grind to make the best stuff. That is what they WANT. This way there are some hardcore crafters to supply the realm with those goods only they could create after all that time and effort. Economy is what makes or breaks a crafting system. I don't even know what you could want from a crafting system. You seem to be arguing that it is everything they say its not, a grind, not fun, recipe based, etc. etc. You are not seeing that in fact it is everything they say it is.

Have you never played an MMORPG? WHen exactly does one sell level 5 potions to level 5s? Nobody bothers to buy them at level 5 due ot lack of cash/lack of need/not being near an AH or a seller, and nobody sells them at level 40 because the profit, if any, is so miniscule that it's not worth the effort, and thus he vendorises them.

A simple crafting system = a simple economy. You have deduced, correctly, that I am arguing that it's nothing like they say it is. It is as much a grind as any other crafting system - that i don't mind too much - it IS recipe based, if you bother to think for a second and look past the fact theres no "official recipes", and it isn't fun either, since it's so simplistic that it'll get boring after a while.

And while we're at it, what exactly is your argument? You seem to be saying "omg it's evolutionary and brillaint" without anything backing it up. It's no better, and I'm arguing worse, than most crafting systems out there.

[Archive]

And while we're at it, what exactly is your argument? You seem to be saying "omg it's evolutionary and brillaint" without anything backing it up. It's no better, and I'm arguing worse, than most crafting systems out there.

I can't speak for Vanza, but my arguement is

1) the crafting system is based on experimentation

2) experimentation is fun

3) grinding is defined as any repetitive, boring task in an MMO

4) boring and fun are opposites

Therefore the crafting system is not a grind.

[logicalmayhem]

It IS a grind. THINK before you post. What do you think you're going to do with the large batch of potions that are too low level for you? Lets say you take up whatever the potion making craft is called. You level from 10-20 in the game, not stopping to develop your craft. Now, that's a situation almost all players will likely be in at some point - outleveling their crafting profession. You now stop and catch up, by grinding for or otherwise acquiring large batches of low level ingredients to make some low level potions, which by your level are almost useless. Do you think these potions are going to help you much? Most people will probably just vendorise them.



It won't be based on experimentation. It'll be based on the experimentation of a hardcore few, who'll then write up the potion "recipes" online, and then everyone will go refer to them. Someone will probably even calculate the percentage chance of an "uber potion" being made when one combines certain ingredients, as MBJ explains in the recent podcast. And then, after that, it'll basically become a grind as much as any other crafting system in order to get materials, but with an end result that lacks any "oomph" whatsoever.



WAR is "about" being an MMORPG as much as it is being about "war". World of Warcraft is about war...craft, I guess. Everquest is about ...questing I guess. But that isn't an excuse to disregard the other aspects of a game that makes it interesting. If WoW was just about fighting other players and monsters, with all the extra rubbish, such as griffon rides, crafting, etc taken out, it would be very shallow and boring. Such will be the case with WAR if they continue to strip out stuff using contrived reasons.


Can you people not see past the fascade that is the description of this crafting system? It's not a grind - yes it IS!, for the reasons I have explained in my original post in this thread. It's not a recipe based system - yes it IS again! Read this post again if you can't see why. And to top all of that, the system itself is much MUCH worse than most systems that have come before it, and despite that they're calling it revolutionary. It is, in fact, devolutionary.

I do see your point to a certain extent, really what they are attempting to do is make an economy where you cant buy your gear you have to earn it. by doing this they reduce if not eliminate gold farmers. also you will need ither a shard from disenchanted armor or plants grown from seeds to make anything in the game 2 things you cant grind as such.

armor - if your grinding armor you get it fastest adding 2 the war effort doing PQ's and so forth. so any gold farmers will have to be actual players who can co-operate in a team

Plants - from the sounds of it even if you had an endless amount of seeds you wouldn't be able to just sit there all day growing stuff you would have to do it periodically so therefor making another barrier to farmers.

IMO i actually like the crafting system its simple and kinda fun. and it seems to be totally designed around crushing gold farmers and keeping the economy balanced around money players will gain through just playing the game.

[Esraymuk]

I can't speak for Vanza, but my arguement is

1) the crafting system is based on experimentation

2) experimentation is fun

3) grinding is defined as any repetitive, boring task in an MMO

4) boring and fun are opposites

Therefore the crafting system is not a grind.

People will only experiment if they have to. Yes, they may find it fun, that fun factor sort of drops when you see all your peers owning with their potions that they made using recipes off a wiki site. Players will be forced to not experiment simply because other people are not, and they're getting a major advantage by not experimenting but by using a site to get recipes. This system thus fails.

[logicalmayhem]

What, so you call making 50 level 5 potions when you're level 40 "not a grind" and "usable"? Your definitions appear to be way off.

As for experimentation - sure, they'll be a few people such as you who'll have fun from messing around, but most people will just look up the recipies - the system may succeed for the few, such as you, but will fail for the masses. Nobody serious about PvP is going to waste their time experimenting, however fun it might be, when their peers have been looking up the combinations for the "uber potions" that give them an edge.

if you wait till lvl 40 to skill up your profeshions of corse it will be a grind that just obvious.
if you wait till lvl 40 to start it means you will be buying all your ingredients and wont have any proper gathering ones by then anyway. anything is a grind if you want it to be.

IMO the crafting is advanced simplicity

like when you disenchant stuff you get to chose what aspect of the thing u want in the shard which i think is cool.

and say you want a str potion there is just not a lvl 5 lvl 20 lvl 40 potions (like there would be if it was recopy based) you have free reign to make them do what you want.

if you want a short strong 1 grab that if you want a weak long one then get that.

you can also make stuff that may not work when u want it depending on how good a stabaliser you add.

i do agree that online there will be "the best potions" guide and how 2 make them but till 40 its gonna be more of a make what ever u need for the situation and therefor not be grinding (as much as some other systems)

[logicalmayhem]

People will only experiment if they have to. Yes, they may find it fun, that fun factor sort of drops when you see all your peers owning with their potions that they made using recipes off a wiki site. Players will be forced to not experiment simply because other people are not, and they're getting a major advantage by not experimenting but by using a site to get recipes. This system thus fails.

i do agree there will be general "best potions" but you can still play with duration : affect ratios so you get more freedome than is other systems

[logicalmayhem]

Why would anyone want to craft rocks? It's not like you can wear them as armour or drink them like potions :rolleyes:


LOL is all i can say 2 this 1 (i laughed how about you)

EDIT: im off 2 bed t bad i got no replys lol ill check back tomorow

ps AUS SERVERS ARE GONNA BE AWSOME!!!!! (L) Mythic lol

[Rhianni]

What, so you call making 50 level 5 potions when you're level 40 "not a grind" and "usable"? Your definitions appear to be way off.


There are things called friends and guildies that some people have. They are not tied to the same level as the crafter and sometimes are of differing level. My definition of grind (and one that Mythic has stated is in agreement with) is that crafting grinding is making things that makes no useable item. A lvl 40 making a lvl 5 potion that a lvl 5 would want would be rather useful to them.

[vanza001]

People will only experiment if they have to. Yes, they may find it fun, that fun factor sort of drops when you see all your peers owning with their potions that they made using recipes off a wiki site. Players will be forced to not experiment simply because other people are not, and they're getting a major advantage by not experimenting but by using a site to get recipes. This system thus fails.

Players will experiment because they wont have all the right ingredients all the time. You say its not gonna be fun, but WHAT THE HELL, you haven't played it at all. You are taking all the insecurities you have from that other games crafting system and with your limited knowledge of delicate in game economies and certainly of this particular game which obviously NEITHER of us has played. You are not even disappointed with the system missing something (I understand people wanting more variety or to be able to create weapons and armor) you are in denial about the true nature of this system. You do not understand and that is all I can say.

Sorry you don't agree. I think one day you'll see that it works just fine. You can play the system just like you imagine everyone will. Look up the recipies, it won't affect me. Grind all day for all the best ingredients, I might just buy them or your crafted items. The point is I DONT HAVE TO DO IT LIKE THAT!

[Archive]

People will only experiment if they have to. Yes, they may find it fun, that fun factor sort of drops when you see all your peers owning with their potions that they made using recipes off a wiki site. Players will be forced to not experiment simply because other people are not, and they're getting a major advantage by not experimenting but by using a site to get recipes. This system thus fails.

No, you will only experiment if you have to, I gave a variety of reasons why other people will experiment, none of which you have addressed. I know you're the Guildmaster of a hardcore guild, so this may be a bit difficult for you to empathize with, but being the very, very best isn't the main goal of most players, and most are willing to be slightly less powerful for a lot less hassle.

I think the reason you don't particularly like the crafting system Esraymuk, is because it is not particularly well suited to your interests. Its shallowness leaves very little room for marked achievement, and the breath offers nothing if it is not used. This craft system doesn't offer much in the way of experimentation for you or your guild because hardcore guilds are notoriously against freeform experimentation. Your guild will probably dictate what masteries each class should use, and which tactics each person will learn, possibly which classes can even be in the guild. Sure, some members of Eva Vix will playtest various builds, but once the "right build" is discovered, everyone will likely be expected to fall in line and use only that one. And the same will happen with the crafters of your guild when it comes to making supplies for your guild. Such is the nature of hardcore guilds; there isn't much room for casual activities. And that is why you and most of the members of your guild won't experiment.

So is the problem with the crafting system, or is the problem that the crafting system and your guild system are largely incompatible?

[logicalmayhem]

No, you will only experiment if you have to, I gave a variety of reasons why other people will experiment, none of which you have addressed. I know you're the Guildmaster of a hardcore guild, so this may be a bit difficult for you to empathize with, but being the very, very best isn't the main goal of most players, and most are willing to be slightly less powerful for a lot less hassle.

I think the reason you don't particularly like the crafting system Esraymuk, is because it is not particularly well suited to your interests. Its shallowness leaves very little room for marked achievement, and the breath offers nothing if it is not used. This craft system doesn't offer much in the way of experimentation for you or your guild because hardcore guilds are notoriously against freeform experimentation. Your guild will probably dictate what masteries each class should use, and which tactics each person will learn, possibly which classes can even be in the guild. Sure, some members of Eva Vix will playtest various builds, but once the "right build" is discovered, everyone will likely be expected to fall in line and use only that one. And the same will happen with the crafters of your guild when it comes to making supplies for your guild. Such is the nature of hardcore guilds; there isn't much room for casual activities. And that is why you and most of the members of your guild won't experiment.

So is the problem with the crafting system, or is the problem that the crafting system and your guild system are largely incompatible?


I do see your argument here you made some good points

[logicalmayhem]

Players will experiment because they wont have all the right ingredients all the time. You say its not gonna be fun, but WHAT THE HELL, you haven't played it at all. You are taking all the insecurities you have from that other games crafting system and with your limited knowledge of delicate in game economies and certainly of this particular game which obviously NEITHER of us has played. You are not even disappointed with the system missing something (I understand people wanting more variety or to be able to create weapons and armor) you are in denial about the true nature of this system. You do not understand and that is all I can say.

Sorry you don't agree. I think one day you'll see that it works just fine. You can play the system just like you imagine everyone will. Look up the recipies, it won't affect me. Grind all day for all the best ingredients, I might just buy them or your crafted items. The point is I DONT HAVE TO DO IT LIKE THAT!


nicely sumed up in your last line "I DONT HAVE TO DO IT LIKE THAT!" it gives the choice to the players and they can make it as fun or as boring as they want

[Esraymuk]

There are things called friends and guildies that some people have. They are not tied to the same level as the crafter and sometimes are of differing level. My definition of grind (and one that Mythic has stated is in agreement with) is that crafting grinding is making things that makes no useable item. A lvl 40 making a lvl 5 potion that a lvl 5 would want would be rather useful to them.

Thats such a contrived example. Nobody bothers ending level 5 potions to level 5 guild members, because by the time it gets there said guild member is probably level 10 already. Low level trash items arn't worth the effort of passing around, even for casual players, simply because it takes effort to send/trade it, and won't be much use.

Your definition of grind is simply wrong. By your definition, WoW's crafting system requires no grind, nor does any others. SInce, after all, you can still "use" level 5 potions, you can still "use" level 10 armour.

You say its not gonna be fun, but WHAT THE HELL, you haven't played it at all. You are taking all the insecurities you have from that other games crafting system and with your limited knowledge of delicate in game economies and certainly of this particular game which obviously NEITHER of us has played.

My supposedly "Limited" knowledge of ingame economies and apparent "insecurities", even if it were true, would have nothing to do with this. I have no idea how you brought the ingame economy into this. While it is related to crafting, it's not actually got anything to do with the arguments presented and discussed at the moment. I suggest you actually read my posts and the responses before posting some inane and very uninformed commentry. For example, you state I have not played the game. The fact that I'm in beta, as stated in my profile in the left hand side, counters that. (Note I'm not speaking of this system from beta experience, though it may or may not be influenced by it).

You are not even disappointed with the system missing something (I understand people wanting more variety or to be able to create weapons and armor) you are in denial about the true nature of this system.

What? You've posted a statement then countered it with your next sentance, and somehow I'm in denial about the nature of this system, DESPITE the fact that you yourself have stated that you have not played this system.

Your post is riddiled with incorrect statements and contradictions. I really have no clue what you're on about.



Such is the nature of hardcore guilds; there isn't much room for casual activities. And that is why you and most of the members of your guild won't experiment.

This isn't about my guild. I'm talking from the perspective of someone who plays a game for fun. I was one of those long before I was part of any hardcore organisation. Average unwashed mass member Joe bloggs still wants to win. He may not have the skill, time, dedication, etc to do so all the time, or become the best, but he still wants to win. Nobody plays a game to lose; nobody does anything to lose. They want to win, they want to gain something.

This system relies on people purposely overcoming that instinct to win, in order to "have fun" experimenting. Very few people can be bothered to do that. Experimentation requires both effort, time and the will to forgo a quick boost to your stats for the supposed fun of messing around with ingredients and destroying your containers until you get to where you could have got to ages ago by checking on the net. As a result, most people will just go and check on the net. Not all, but MOST. As a result, the system fails quite miserably, and just turns into a standard recipe system.

I can guarentee you that 1 month after release some pro will have applied 20 statistical analysis tests and a drawn up a few graphs, then posted a massive list of potions. He then will post - if you want +1 hour to this potions duration, or +10% to it's power, add X ingredient. Everyone will then refer to it and that'll be the end of that til the next patch.

Tell me, are you actually going to just stand by and continue experimenting instead of just looking it up while everyone on the enemy team and everyone on your team has some uber buff potion which you want? Joe bloggs certainly won't.

In addition, theres the frustration as well. "OMG FFS THATS THE TENTH F****** CONTAINER I BROKE CBA WITH THIS EXPERIMENTATION GIF ME LINK PLZ". Even the most ardent experimenter will eventually just get pissed off and not bother with it any longer, and just go and look it up.

I gave a variety of reasons why other people will experiment, none of which you have addressed.

Please restate them; I believe I have addressed all outstanding reasons why people might experiment, and apologise if I missed any.

[vanza001]

lol. I'm done with you dude. Economy is the ENTIRE ARGUMENT. You say its a grind, not fun, recipe based, etc, etc. If you would of actually thought about what I was saying instead of picking up your same point over and over again you might understand (though I'm starting to doubt it).

The system doesn't lock you into the playstyle you say will happen. Quite the opposite. If you don't want to put in the time and effort to have the uber recipies and collect all the perfect ingredients you won't have to. You will be able to create things of all levels of power even approaching uber recipies without consuling a single website. You will be able to use these things or sell them.

The point of the system, like many others in WAR, is so that all range of playstyles will enjoy it. Put in 1 hour or 300 and you'll still get to mix and match what you have and create something you can use. This game is striving to be very casual friendly if you haven't noticed and I for one think this crafting system does just that. Everyone gets to play, though the hardcore people will obviously get to grind and grind and make uber stuff. Everyone wins! Stop your in.

You are looking at it from 1 perspective YOURS. Since you fail to open your mind to any other perspective and continue to imagine everyone plays the game just like you (news flash: THEY DONT) I'm no longer going to comment on this.

[Rhianni]

Thats such a contrived example. Nobody bothers ending level 5 potions to level 5 guild members, because by the time it gets there said guild member is probably level 10 already. Low level trash items arn't worth the effort of passing around, even for casual players, simply because it takes effort to send/trade it, and won't be much use.

Your definition of grind is simply wrong. By your definition, WoW's crafting system requires no grind, nor does any others. SInce, after all, you can still "use" level 5 potions, you can still "use" level 10 armour.



If you were to make a lvl 5 potion while leveling up your crafting skill and had a lvl 5 friend or guildie and wouldnt give it to them yet complain that you are making useless items thats on you not a broken system. How exactly can it be a contrived example when its a direct response to your example of a lvl 40 making a worthless lvl 5 item? I would say that wow's system is a grind. There are times that you have to make items that give no bonuses and no game mechanic use to progress. A lvl 5 potion has definate uses for a lvl 5. Just because you would choose not to do it doesnt mean it wouldnt be worth it. Drop it in an ingame mailbox how much effort does that take?
All your replies in this thread consist of "I dont like your answer so your are wrong". There is a difference in agreeing and disagreeing with someones likes and dislikes and quite another to say they are wrong. I'll jump back in if you start contributing something worthwhile instead of "You're wrong because I am right" posts.

[Esraymuk]

lol. I'm done with you dude. Economy is the ENTIRE ARGUMENT. You say its a grind, not fun, recipe based, etc, etc. If you would of actually thought about what I was saying instead of picking up your same point over and over again you might understand (though I'm starting to doubt it).

The system doesn't lock you into the playstyle you say will happen. Quite the opposite. If you don't want to put in the time and effort to have the uber recipies and collect all the perfect ingredients you won't have to. You will be able to create things of all levels of power even approaching uber recipies without consuling a single website. You will be able to use these things or sell them.

The point of the system, like many others in WAR, is so that all range of playstyles will enjoy it. Put in 1 hour or 300 and you'll still get to mix and match what you have and create something you can use. This game is striving to be very casual friendly if you haven't noticed and I for one think this crafting system does just that. Everyone gets to play, though the hardcore people will obviously get to grind and grind and make uber stuff. Everyone wins! Stop your in.

You are looking at it from 1 perspective YOURS. Since you fail to open your mind to any other perspective and continue to imagine everyone plays the game just like you (news flash: THEY DONT) I'm no longer going to comment on this.

Why don't you enlighten me as to how this particular discussion on the crafting system has any relevance to the economy whatsoever.

You will be able to create things of all levels of power even approaching uber recipies without consuling a single website.

If you dont refer to a website, and spend time experimenting, possibly. I.E IF YOU PUT TIME IN, IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION, AGAIN, TO WHAT YOU JUST POSTED.

You will be able to use these things or sell them.


You will be able to use them yes, but whos going to buy a gimped potion for an acceptable price? "My potion gives me +10 strength, 10 gold please". "My potion gives you +8 strength, 10 gold please. Buyer says "LOL I'll give you 1gold for that, not good enough sorry i'm looking for batches of +10 strength pots". "

It's just the nature of MMORPGs, it's nigh on impossible to find buyers who'll pay a decent amoutn for substandard products.

You are looking at it from 1 perspective YOURS. Since you fail to open your mind to any other perspective and continue to imagine everyone plays the game just like you (news flash: THEY DONT) I'm no longer going to comment on this.

I'm trying to look at it from the perspective of your average noob who will play this game. If I was looking at it from my perspective, then i'd be suggesting that they have a system whereby getting to top level crafting takes weeks and weeks of real time, but you don't see me doing that do you? I'm just trying to say, this system sucks for the average noob playing the game - becuase it's so generic and boring, and it's "revolutionary new features" are more or less counteracted by MMORPG reality.

[Esraymuk]

I would say that wow's system is a grind. There are times that you have to make items that give no bonuses and no game mechanic use to progress. A lvl 5 potion has definate uses for a lvl 5. Just because you would choose not to do it doesnt mean it wouldnt be worth it. Drop it in an ingame mailbox how much effort does that take?

WoW's system means you make batches of low level trash potions as well, while leveling up. How is it more of a grind than WAR's will be, when you could have simply sent those level 1 healing potions to your low level guild members?

That is why your definition of grind is wrong - not because of my viewpoint, but because of your own; if your definition of grind applied then WoW's system would no longer be a grind according to you, a point which you have just said to the contrary yourself.



**Incidentally, can you guys please respond to ALL of my points that I put forward, not just one or two. You don't see me selectively skipping points that you make that I feel uncomfortable responding to; it's rather disrespectful.

[Gloovish]

Esraymuk, you seem to be saying that people will figure out the best way to min max the system and everyone will be going to websites and combining the best ingredients.

That will only happen if there is such a thing as a 'best ingredient' and 'best potion'. To avoid this Mythic should make all ingredients have approximately the same value proportional to the effort or cost it took to acquire them. Let me explain that mouthful.

Suppose you are making a health potion(+ health points) and you can add only one of these ingredients:
-Adding 'x' increases the amount of health increased.
-Adding 'y' increases the duration of the effect.
-Adding 'z' increases the amount of potions produced.

Which if 'better'? If Mythic do their job right none will be strictly 'better'. Instead the choice will depend on which activity you're engaged in, your playstyle and personal preference, ingredients you have available, fluctuation of prices on the AH etc. There is no 'better'. They are all good for someone in some situations(assuming Mythic doesn't screw up the implementation of the concept).

Remember that people will be constantly generating ingredients semi-randomly as a byproduct of playing the game. Even if the ingredients and effects are not 100% balanced, the AH should take care of it through supply and demand. More popular ingredients will go up in price and less popular ones will go down until their cost is what they are worth. So for example if you consider 'x' to be better than 'y' you might reconsider if you see 'x' being overpriced and 'y' being sold for a bargain in the AH.

Anyways that's the way I see it and I could be wrong but in that case it would be a failure of implementation and not the concept IMHO.

[Rhianni]

WoW's system means you make batches of low level trash potions as well, while leveling up. How is it more of a grind than WAR's will be, when you could have simply sent those level 1 healing potions to your low level guild members?

That is why your definition of grind is wrong - not because of my viewpoint, but because of your own; if your definition of grind applied then WoW's system would no longer be a grind according to you, a point which you have just said to the contrary yourself.



**Incidentally, can you guys please respond to ALL of my points that I put forward, not just one or two. You don't see me selectively skipping points that you make that I feel uncomfortable responding to; it's rather disrespectful.

Nothing contradictory. Speaking of selectively skipping points you didnt even read what you quoted
I would say that wow's system is a grind. There are times that you have to make items that give no bonuses and no game mechanic use to progress. A lvl 5 potion has definate uses for a lvl 5. Just because you would choose not to do it doesnt mean it wouldnt be worth it. Drop it in an ingame mailbox how much effort does that take?
Making an item that gives no bonuses and no game mechanic = grind.
lvl 5 potion. it does SOMETHING = no grind. I even stated that 'there are times' as in not all the time. As in not the entire process.

You have no room to be taking the high horse and calling others disrespectful as if to say you have been a gentleman. Both of us have been disrespectful in the other's view.
People dont respond to everything a person says. Personally I only comment on things that I feel warrant a comment.

I'm willing to start over per say. What point would you like me to respond to?

[Esraymuk]

I would say that wow's system is a grind.

You stated this.

There are times that you have to make items that give no bonuses and no game mechanic use to progress

And the above quote is your reason for why it is a grind.


My point was that WAR's system is going to be exactly the same in terms of having to make low level stuff in order to level. It is thus no less a "grind" than WoW.

You have no room to be taking the high horse and calling others disrespectful as if to say you have been a gentleman. Both of us have been disrespectful in the other's view.

I've not insulted anyone in this thread, unlike some. In addition, I have actually responded to peoples' points, unlike most people here again who just pick and choose, misinterpret, then put forward some completely irrelevent point. Granted, I have disagreed with your opinion and you with mine, but i've never actually insulted the person behindit.

I can guarentee you that 1 month after release some pro will have applied 20 statistical analysis tests and a drawn up a few graphs, then posted a massive list of potions. He then will post - if you want +1 hour to this potions duration, or +10% to it's power, add X ingredient. Everyone will then refer to it and that'll be the end of that til the next patch.

Tell me, are you actually going to just stand by and continue experimenting instead of just looking it up while everyone on the enemy team and everyone on your team has some uber buff potion which you want? Joe bloggs certainly won't.

In addition, theres the frustration as well. "OMG FFS THATS THE TENTH F****** CONTAINER I BROKE CBA WITH THIS EXPERIMENTATION GIF ME LINK PLZ". Even the most ardent experimenter will eventually just get pissed off and not bother with it any longer, and just go and look it up.

I'd appreciate it if someone could respond with a coutner argument to that point. (not you in particular, but directed at everyone, I believe you only touched on the experimentation subject in this thread. The point above is that the system fails since most people won't experiment, and as such it is reduced to what is essentially a standard recipe system which they try so ardently to avoid. In addition, theres been 2 major posts by me on this page. i would appreciate it if people could comment on all the points in those, rather than just nitpicking.

instead of picking up your same point over and over again you might understand (though I'm starting to doubt it).

I keep reiterating my points since none of you seem to understand it and I'm endevouring to explain it better. I'm assuming it's my explanation that is at fault rather than your ability to read/respond. Either that, or you're choosing not responding to it.

[Rhianni]

I can guarentee you that 1 month after release some pro will have applied 20 statistical analysis tests and a drawn up a few graphs, then posted a massive list of potions. He then will post - if you want +1 hour to this potions duration, or +10% to it's power, add X ingredient. Everyone will then refer to it and that'll be the end of that til the next patch.
Tell me, are you actually going to just stand by and continue experimenting instead of just looking it up while everyone on the enemy team and everyone on your team has some uber buff potion which you want? Joe bloggs certainly won't.
In addition, theres the frustration as well. "OMG FFS THATS THE TENTH F****** CONTAINER I BROKE CBA WITH THIS EXPERIMENTATION GIF ME LINK PLZ". Even the most ardent experimenter will eventually just get pissed off and not bother with it any longer, and just go and look it up.

I'd appreciate it if someone could respond with a coutner argument to that point. (not you in particular, but directed at everyone, I believe you only touched on the experimentation subject in this thread. The point above is that the system fails since most people won't experiment, and as such it is reduced to what is essentially a standard recipe system which they try so ardently to avoid. In addition, theres been 2 major posts by me on this page. i would appreciate it if people could comment on all the points in those, rather than just nitpicking.


Fair enough. I'll address this point that has been ignored and selectively passed over.

Post #31....
If you want to skip the experimentation, research what others have done, then cry that there is no experimentation thats on you not the system. Players have to take some responsibility for what they want out of fun. If a person wants to experiment they can. If they dont want to they can go hit websites and get the answers.
I agree with that guy. The system doesnt fail the player does.

Not everyone goes out and buys a guide to a game. Not everyone gives up and goes to find the answer. Some people play a game for the discovery factor. They play differently than you would play it, as many others have pointed out in this thread several times.
I fully agree with you that there will be websites out there with tons of number crunched data telling what the best way to do things are.
Player A can skip everything and go straight to the website for answers. They are happy.
Player B can try to expirement then when they are frustrated they will go to websties. They are happy.
Player C can try to experiment and never go check websites but keep at it.They are happy.
I like this system because it allows all crafting experimentation levels to get what they want out of the system, even those that play the game differently than me.

I dont think even the most ardent experimentor will get pissed and give up. If people did that than how did the first person who put the information up on the website do it in the first place?
EDIT: For that fact this is taking the assumption that it will be so hard that even the most ardent experimentor will fail 10 times in a row. We could try waiting to see how hard it is before saying everyone will give up.

[checkthis5000]

People will only experiment if they have to. Yes, they may find it fun, that fun factor sort of drops when you see all your peers owning with their potions that they made using recipes off a wiki site. Players will be forced to not experiment simply because other people are not, and they're getting a major advantage by not experimenting but by using a site to get recipes. This system thus fails.

I think you're making very sweeping generalizations here. I know lots and lots of people that don't rely on other people's work in MMOs. Whether it be finding a quest or crafting or the best spec. I myself am one of those people.

I plan on experimenting as much as possible, and if I see someone with an awesome potion I'll ask him "how did you make that?"

Having a wiki site doesn't "force" players to do anything. It give them the option to be lazy. Not everyone takes that route.

Your point that the system fails is based on your opinion, and not on facts at all. Thus, your reasoning fails.

[nazzazzan]

you do know that you get to choose your crafting at lvl 10 right. So youll be making lvl 5 stuff at lvl 10 so it will be useful.

[vanza001]

My point was that WAR's system is going to be exactly the same in terms of having to make low level stuff in order to level. It is thus no less a "grind" than WoW.

Ideally you would be making low level stuff to level when you were actually low level yourself. How is this grinding? You don't have to kill countless things for a recipe drop. (benefit 1) You would probably be interested in using anything you make if you are as interested in crafting as leveling or RvR. Even if you weren't you can 'donate' these to the war effort and it goes towards your Realms victory points (this is conjecture, but they've said crafting, PvE, prior control, etc. will all contribute of course not very much, but the point is that it contributes) This system has almost nothing in common with WoW system unless you individually are bent on total domination of the skill and perfect efficiency which is YOUR prerogative.

**Incidentally, can you guys please respond to ALL of my points that I put forward, not just one or two. You don't see me selectively skipping points that you make that I feel uncomfortable responding to; it's rather disrespectful.

Not all your points are actually even valid to what we are trying to convey to you. I get your man points. Its grinding, its boring, its recipes... its a step backwards. I've tried to explain how much it isn't grinding... I've tried to explain how its not recipes since you don't have to go find an in game item representing it. You can just whip it up and see if it works. You can go look online if you'd like. No recipes. And boring is in the eye of the beholder. I think if you treat it like a grind it'll be a grind. If you look up all the recipes and kill kill kill to harvest the ingredients and make it into that then you probably will find it boring and just as bad as WoW. Thats you buddy, not everyone. So there I've commented on all your points, for the third or fourth time. Now, what do you have to say about my points?

[logicalmayhem]

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[logicalmayhem]

Ideally you would be making low level stuff to level when you were actually low level yourself. How is this grinding? You don't have to kill countless things for a recipe drop. (benefit 1) You would probably be interested in using anything you make if you are as interested in crafting as leveling or RvR. Even if you weren't you can 'donate' these to the war effort and it goes towards your Realms victory points (this is conjecture, but they've said crafting, PvE, prior control, etc. will all contribute of course not very much, but the point is that it contributes) This system has almost nothing in common with WoW system unless you individually are bent on total domination of the skill and perfect efficiency which is YOUR prerogative.



Not all your points are actually even valid to what we are trying to convey to you. I get your man points. Its grinding, its boring, its recipes... its a step backwards. I've tried to explain how much it isn't grinding... I've tried to explain how its not recipes since you don't have to go find an in game item representing it. You can just whip it up and see if it works. You can go look online if you'd like. No recipes. And boring is in the eye of the beholder. I think if you treat it like a grind it'll be a grind. If you look up all the recipes and kill kill kill to harvest the ingredients and make it into that then you probably will find it boring and just as bad as WoW. Thats you buddy, not everyone. So there I've commented on all your points, for the third or fourth time. Now, what do you have to say about my points?

nice post i couldn't agree more.

its not recapy coz all u need is the ingredents and the knowlage not a bit of paper you find in game that says "you can now craft x potion"

its not "as much of a grind as other games" and i say that coz 2 some extent it will be a grind but they are trying to make it so you can lvl up your skills with what ever u have lying around, they may even reward diversity so you cant just make 1 potion you have to make lots of different kinds to gain skill.

it gives the player the choice like my self i will probably have a look on line at potion making guides just coz i like to be well informed dosnt mean i wont be testing what happens and why
+ ill be playing from release there will be no decent guide for a few months if anything ill be one of the people who helps create it XD

[Kintanu]

I'm surprised that no one has clarified this with all those posts.

Recipe base system is not an experimental system with a guide.

In a Recipe system you are forced to aquire said recipe book to learn said recipe. Then you are required to aquire said ingrediants to craft said recipe to level up. Plus you will have to Hunt down said rare recipes. Rinse and Repeat for each designated level brackets. (This system is used in EQ2, WoW, EVE {in EVE its basically limited to SP and where you have access to racial space and 0.0}, and others i have not mentioned)

Experimental system is you acquire said ingredients and combine them freely. As long as you have a Main ingredient, you can supply the other sub-ingredients as you wish. You are not forced to make only 1-10 items to skill up. You are not forced to find XYZ ingredients to make those items to skill up. You are not forced to hunt down those rare recipes to complete your crafting profession because you will have access to the entire database. The only limiting factor is your skill level and your access to said items if you do not have the gathering to supplement it. This system requires you to socialize with your realm mates.

This system removes the idea that a crafting profession is a main archetype. What i mean is when you created your character you chose a class. Then when you hit level 10 you chose a profession (lets assume you did). With this system, you do not need to decide if you will play your class or play your profession. You can do both at the same time. You can craft anywhere and not at a specific station ala WoW, EQ2, EVE, etc. If your bags are full of seeds, plant them and continue with your quests/RvR. When they are ready, use them. No need to hearth/call/dock to craft. Crafting on the go is evolutionary in MMOs.

A guide is not a recipe in MMO terms. Its like a Cook Book. A Cook Book lits the ingredients and its results, but the reader of said book can add to it or substitute ingredients and make it their own. When someone creats a guide for Apothecary, you will not have to follow it. It will not be a recipe and force you to use it to skill up.
... the system fails since most people won't experiment, and as such it is reduced to what is essentially a standard recipe system which they try so ardently to avoid.
I believe i have addressed this quote. Just to clarify and over emphasize my point I will leave you with this example: You are Joe Shmoe who just landed on N. American soil in 1000 AD. You know that there is another ocean on the other side. How do you get there? The recipe system presented a road and said you MUST stay on it or you cannot go forward. WAR's system gives you a walking stick, shovel, and a machete and says "the Ocean is that way". It is now your choice on how fast you want to get there and witch way you want to get there. In the end with both systems you work to get there. WAR just took you off the same old path that everyone else uses and lets YOU decide how to get there. Weather or not you decide to higher a Guide for the quickest way to get there does not mean it will be the most used way. Nor does it mean that EA-Mythic has been deceitful or failed in their promise to give you a better way to get there.

I'm trying to look at it from the perspective of your average noob who will play this game. If I was looking at it from my perspective, then i'd be suggesting that they have a system whereby getting to top level crafting takes weeks and weeks of real time, but you don't see me doing that do you? I'm just trying to say, this system sucks for the average noob playing the game - becuase it's so generic and boring, and it's "revolutionary new features" are more or less counteracted by MMORPG reality.
PLEASE just speak for yourself. If some noob , as you put it, has a problem with it, they have access to these forums as well and they can state their opinions as well. By you appointing yourself as the voice of the "noob", you are causing more frustration then constructive criticism.

[nakocmb]

Agree with Esraymuk, nothing revolutionary here. Besides, if potions and talismans is all I can craft - it is regress even compared to you-know-what. Having recipe of upgraded (+effect, +duration) version of same potion is now called "Potion Design"? XD

If you really want to get rid of recipes - remove connection between mats and result of their mixing, but nothing points that devs are going to do this. So the only innovation in WAR is that you can't learn recipes through ingame items or NPCs. This means you can waste some money/time/mats on experiments or you can use internet/ask friends/etc, but results will be same. I don't think this system is bad, but IMHO it's not a very good idea to spent time "inventing the bicycle", when you have problems with lack of content and less than half a year till release.

[logicalmayhem]

I'm surprised that no one has clarified this with all those posts.

Recipe base system is not an experimental system with a guide.

In a Recipe system you are forced to aquire said recipe book to learn said recipe. Then you are required to aquire said ingrediants to craft said recipe to level up. Plus you will have to Hunt down said rare recipes. Rinse and Repeat for each designated level brackets. (This system is used in EQ2, WoW, EVE {in EVE its basically limited to SP and where you have access to racial space and 0.0}, and others i have not mentioned)

Experimental system is you acquire said ingredients and combine them freely. As long as you have a Main ingredient, you can supply the other sub-ingredients as you wish. You are not forced to make only 1-10 items to skill up. You are not forced to find XYZ ingredients to make those items to skill up. You are not forced to hunt down those rare recipes to complete your crafting profession because you will have access to the entire database. The only limiting factor is your skill level and your access to said items if you do not have the gathering to supplement it. This system requires you to socialize with your realm mates.

This system removes the idea that a crafting profession is a main archetype. What i mean is when you created your character you chose a class. Then when you hit level 10 you chose a profession (lets assume you did). With this system, you do not need to decide if you will play your class or play your profession. You can do both at the same time. You can craft anywhere and not at a specific station ala WoW, EQ2, EVE, etc. If your bags are full of seeds, plant them and continue with your quests/RvR. When they are ready, use them. No need to hearth/call/dock to craft. Crafting on the go is evolutionary in MMOs.

A guide is not a recipe in MMO terms. Its like a Cook Book. A Cook Book lits the ingredients and its results, but the reader of said book can add to it or substitute ingredients and make it their own. When someone creats a guide for Apothecary, you will not have to follow it. It will not be a recipe and force you to use it to skill up.

I believe i have addressed this quote. Just to clarify and over emphasize my point I will leave you with this example: You are Joe Shmoe who just landed on N. American soil in 1000 AD. You know that there is another ocean on the other side. How do you get there? The recipe system presented a road and said you MUST stay on it or you cannot go forward. WAR's system gives you a walking stick, shovel, and a machete and says "the Ocean is that way". It is now your choice on how fast you want to get there and witch way you want to get there. In the end with both systems you work to get there. WAR just took you off the same old path that everyone else uses and lets YOU decide how to get there. Weather or not you decide to higher a Guide for the quickest way to get there does not mean it will be the most used way. Nor does it mean that EA-Mythic has been deceitful or failed in their promise to give you a better way to get there.


PLEASE just speak for yourself. If some noob , as you put it, has a problem with it, they have access to these forums as well and they can state their opinions as well. By you appointing yourself as the voice of the "noob", you are causing more frustration then constructive criticism.

verry nice post i like your road analergy

[Gloovish]

This whole debate reminds me of the console debates. The old crafting system is like the PS3 or Xbox 360 and Mythic's system is like the Wii. Think about it. Nintendo didn't pour raw horsepower into their system like the other consoles and instead went into a completely different direction. The wii is arguably a backward system if you measure it using the established trend(in the gaming community) of more horsepower = better. Before release I heard comments like "The Wii is a joke." and "This will be the last console Nintendo ever makes." To this day some people believe that the wii isn't worthy of being called a 'true' console.

I can totally understand why some people find Mythic's approach frustrating. They were expecting a 'revolutionary' system and to them 'revolutionary' means more bells and whistles, more complexity, more 'meat' in the system. In the same way that the more filters a pixel can pass through in a console the better it is. Right? Maybe. Depends on your perspective.

In conclusion, Mythics system is a wii; it is simple, elegant and fun(unless you are too hardcore for it).

[Nerissa]

What, so you call making 50 level 5 potions when you're level 40 "not a grind" and "usable"? Your definitions appear to be way off.

When it came to potions in WoW, I think my issue was my CRAFT outleveling ME.


If the same level of material avialability is found in WAR, I won't worry too much. Blacksmiths were in much more danger of outleveling their craft due to the obscene amount of metal it took to get one single bloody skill point...


When an alchemist can combine two different flowers and a bottle to get a skill point. And flowers are EVERYWHERE.


(Hell, I could probably pay my lowbie druid's alchemy skill up with the mats I gather on the warlock that I'm leveling. That's how bloody easy the skill is to level compared to Smithing/Engi/LW)

Anywho Es, it really all depends on the availability of materials. If materials are easy to find, and you don't need a lot of mats to make stuff, people will be able to keep pace easily, and some may even brush the edges of what is allowed (I doubt you will be able to max your profession out to the highest limit at lvl 10) while not doing anything more than simply playing the game.

On the other hand, if they are hard to find and it takes a lot of materials to make a something, then most people will not keep pace.


I think it would be wise to adopt a "wait and see" approach before trying to make this sort of argument.

[Kintanu]

Agree with Esraymuk, nothing revolutionary here. Besides, if potions and talismans is all I can craft - it is regress even compared to you-know-what. Having recipe of upgraded (+effect, +duration) version of same potion is now called "Potion Design"? XD

If you really want to get rid of recipes - remove connection between mats and result of their mixing, but nothing points that devs are going to do this. So the only innovation in WAR is that you can't learn recipes through ingame items or NPCs. This means you can waste some money/time/mats on experiments or you can use internet/ask friends/etc, but results will be same. I don't think this system is bad, but IMHO it's not a very good idea to spent time "inventing the bicycle", when you have problems with lack of content and less than half a year till release.

First of all MBJ said " this may be subject to change". None of this is FINAL. Some form of a Cook Book must exist. There has to be a limit of what items can be used for crafting, and what can be crafted. Do not forget that this is just a GAME. There are limits. Real life has no limit and anything can be used, down from the basic atom to the most complex thing ever built, they are all ingredients.

So calling it limited is correct, but calling it Failed because it is limited is incorrect. Reward must be ascertained through work in some form or another. The difference is does it feel like work. Is it fun?

I understand your views. You want an MMO to come up with a different crafting system that does not rely on get x items and make y result. The only problem with that theory is that is what crafting is. No matter how you rename, change the look, or what ever. Chefs use vegetables, meats, herbs, etc. to craft food. (apply that principal to every single item you interact with) Everything is crafted. You cannot escape the formula of get x ingredients and put the them together and get y result. Mix Copper and Tin and you will get Bronze. Mix it in varying amounts and get different properties of bronze. Maybe more brittle, Stronger, different color variants.

You call it Regress when in fact, they are changing the MMOs to be more true to life. You can take that Main ingredient and make it more stable/change some of its properties with other additives.

You call it regress, devolution, backwards. etc. When in fact, there is no such thing as evolving crafting. As stated above crafting is everywhere, it is what makes everything. The only difference is How do you Implement it to be more Fun. Other MMOs have put you on a railroad and said do it this way. WAR gives you a compass and says do it your way. Either way you both get to the end. But how was your experience?

[Kintanu]

This whole debate reminds me of the console debates. The old crafting system is like the PS3 or Xbox 360 and Mythic's system is like the Wii. Think about it. Nintendo didn't pour raw horsepower into their system like the other consoles and instead went into a completely different direction. The wii is arguably a backward system if you measure it using the established trend(in the gaming community) of more horsepower = better. Before release I heard comments like "The Wii is a joke." and "This will be the last console Nintendo ever makes." To this day some people believe that the wii isn't worthy of being called a 'true' console.

I can totally understand why some people find Mythic's approach frustrating. They were expecting a 'revolutionary' system and to them 'revolutionary' means more bells and whistles, more complexity, more 'meat' in the system. In the same way that the more filters a pixel can pass through in a console the better it is. Right? Maybe. Depends on your perspective.

In conclusion, Mythics system is a wii; it is simple, elegant and fun(unless you are too hardcore for it).
Stated it better then me... can we think together?

[nakocmb]

First of all MBJ said " this may be subject to change". None of this is FINAL. Some form of a Cook Book must exist. There has to be a limit of what items can be used for crafting, and what can be crafted. Do not forget that this is just a GAME. There are limits. Real life has no limit and anything can be used, down from the basic atom to the most complex thing ever built, they are all ingredients.
I know that nothing in MMORPGs is final, they develop with every patch, so MBJ doesn't even have to mention that. I also know that absolute random in craft is imposible (and would be really stupid anyway). So my only point here is MBJ no need to tell me there is no recipes when its obvious that craft in WAR is still recipe-based.

You call it Regress when in fact, they are changing the MMOs to be more true to life. You can take that Main ingredient and make it more stable/change some of its properties with other additives.

You call it regress, devolution, backwards. etc. When in fact, there is no such thing as evolving crafting. As stated above crafting is everywhere, it is what makes everything. The only difference is How do you Implement it to be more Fun. Other MMOs have put you on a railroad and said do it this way. WAR gives you a compass and says do it your way. Either way you both get to the end. But how was your experience?You see, for me crafting system is 2 things - what we craft and how we craft. It's nice to see that devs are trying to do something new with "How" part, and many ppl find their ideas fun. But at the same time "What" has no innovations, and (more importantly) lack of content (only 2 professions - wtf?). So we have "+" in "how" part and big fat "-" in "what". Overall, it looks like some regress to me. Ofc they may add 1-2 profs in happy distant future, but I doubt my first char will have other options than making pots or armor patches.

[Fumblehammer]

As an avid crafter (anal retentive with OCD), I have somewhat overcome my initial disappointment with the POD cast. Very little of what I like in a crafting system was present, but I see lots of possibilities for expansion.

With only two crafting lines, I foresee no player-driven economy at all. Everyone is either going to have both or have multiples in their guild. There is not going to be a market for anything you can make when everyone can make it. Likewise, there is not going to be a market for any ingredients that drop or are salvaged because either you will need them or someone in your guild will.

And before you flame, yes I realize the intent of this game is to get everyone out there fighting instead of standing at a forge or workbench. However, if you want to put out a game that offers total immersion and fun for all, this system (at least at launch) is going to leave out a large population group.

The possibilities of expansion I eluded to earlier are:

Items already listed as being recoverable (skin, bone) could easily be transferrable to a leathercrafter or weaponsmith
The game mechanics for magical salvaging could easily be adapted for salvaging other components such as metal, cloth, or wood and again you end up with ingredients for other crafting lines
Hopefully, the initial system as presented is not where they intend to finish. While I agree there is some innovation in the system as proposed, for now put my vote down for the really shallow category.

[Esraymuk]

Player A can skip everything and go straight to the website for answers. They are happy.
Player B can try to expirement then when they are frustrated they will go to websties. They are happy.
Player C can try to experiment and never go check websites but keep at it.They are happy.
I like this system because it allows all crafting experimentation levels to get what they want out of the system, even those that play the game differently than me.

The problem with this argument is that the majority of the population consists if players B, with a few player As who are min-maxers, and a few player Cs who like experimentation. The system fails because it allows the players to fail. If somebody can do something the easy way, 99/100 times they will take that route; that is human nature and quite understandable. As such, this system is bypassed by the fact that most people WON'T experiment, even when given the option to do so. It turns it into a de facto recipe system for most of the population who play the game, even if it was not intended to be. As such I conclude they havn't thought through the system properly.

[quote]Ideally you would be making low level stuff to level when you were actually low level yourself. How is this grinding? You don't have to kill countless things for a recipe drop.

Thats the ideal, but doesn't always happen, especially one year into retail when most peopel are level 40 and want to change a profession. You still have to kill countless lowl level things for the recipe materials in order to level up despite not getting XP from them, or grind money to buy them, etc. It is thus no less a grind, whether that is a good thing or bad thing is not relevant.

I've tried to explain how its not recipes since you don't have to go find an in game item representing it.

Please refer to the first paragraph of this post to read my argument as to why it is a de facto recipe system.

If you look up all the recipes and kill kill kill to harvest the ingredients and make it into that then you probably will find it boring and just as bad as WoW. Thats you buddy, not everyone.

This isn't just me. The system fails the player, since it gives them an option to get around it. Why don't people do World PvP objectives in WoW? Because it gives much much lower honour points than battlegrounds. Sure, you hvae a few who persists because it's "fun", but most people don't bother despite the fact they have a "choice". In the same way, players here have a "choice", but it is as much a "choice" as the choice between World PvP and instanced PvP in WoW.

I dont think even the most ardent experimentor will get pissed and give up. If people did that than how did the first person who put the information up on the website do it in the first place?

I concede that point. You're correct.

I believe i have addressed this quote. Just to clarify and over emphasize my point I will leave you with this example: You are Joe Shmoe who just landed on N. American soil in 1000 AD. You know that there is another ocean on the other side. How do you get there? The recipe system presented a road and said you MUST stay on it or you cannot go forward. WAR's system gives you a walking stick, shovel, and a machete and says "the Ocean is that way". It is now your choice on how fast you want to get there and witch way you want to get there. In the end with both systems you work to get there. WAR just took you off the same old path that everyone else uses and lets YOU decide how to get there. Weather or not you decide to higher a Guide for the quickest way to get there does not mean it will be the most used way. Nor does it mean that EA-Mythic has been deceitful or failed in their promise to give you a better way to get there.

Again, de facto recipe system. Read above for full argument.

PLEASE just speak for yourself. If some noob , as you put it, has a problem with it, they have access to these forums as well and they can state their opinions as well. By you appointing yourself as the voice of the "noob", you are causing more frustration then constructive criticism.

I'm trying to look at it from a general, average person, pespective here, since that will be the majority of WAR players. I suggest others start doing the same.

[Rhianni]

This whole debate reminds me of the console debates. The old crafting system is like the PS3 or Xbox 360 and Mythic's system is like the Wii. Think about it. Nintendo didn't pour raw horsepower into their system like the other consoles and instead went into a completely different direction. The wii is arguably a backward system if you measure it using the established trend(in the gaming community) of more horsepower = better. Before release I heard comments like "The Wii is a joke." and "This will be the last console Nintendo ever makes." To this day some people believe that the wii isn't worthy of being called a 'true' console.

I can totally understand why some people find Mythic's approach frustrating. They were expecting a 'revolutionary' system and to them 'revolutionary' means more bells and whistles, more complexity, more 'meat' in the system. In the same way that the more filters a pixel can pass through in a console the better it is. Right? Maybe. Depends on your perspective.

In conclusion, Mythics system is a wii; it is simple, elegant and fun(unless you are too hardcore for it).

Well said. I agree.

[Stiltzkin]

When the GM of Mythic said he didn't want a recipe based system I don't think he meant a system in which the ingredients have nothing to do with the outcome. He meant he wanted the players to mix ingredients to find the best system instead of having the programmers only give them 1 option. In that sense he succeeded and this is not a recipe based system.

If you want a computer you can either buy one or build one. Recipe based system only offers off the shelf computers. WAR makes you build a computer. You choose your own graphics card, CPU etc. Yes you are both getting computers. Yes you will ask advice on what pieces are the best. In the end there is a big difference though.

Edit: also i agree agree the crafting is an "add-on" to the game. I think they've been very clear about that. They wanted to be known for RvR first and foremost and just decided they wanted to do something a little different from the average with their crafting system.

going with my building a computer analogy: You can use all the best items and make the most awesomest computer in the world and there will be guides for how to do that... If you don't want to spend the money (time) you can choose to use a serviceable CPU instead of the top of the line items. That is what makes it a non recipe based system.

[vanza001]

The problem with this argument is that the majority of the population consists if players B, with a few player As who are min-maxers, and a few player Cs who like experimentation. The system fails because it allows the players to fail. If somebody can do something the easy way, 99/100 times they will take that route; that is human nature and quite understandable. As such, this system is bypassed by the fact that most people WON'T experiment, even when given the option to do so. It turns it into a de facto recipe system for most of the population who play the game, even if it was not intended to be. As such I conclude they havn't thought through the system properly.Aha, here is where your argument fails. Like I've pointed out before you cannot assume at all what 'most players' are going to do. By your definition if players can put together any objects at all and create something then it is a recipe based system as long as anytime you put those objects together it results in the same item. That is absurd. That is ALL CRAFTING. If you put x y and z together and always create i you are going to define it as recipie based. Not only does your logic fail that all players will play mostly the same way it fails in that you define all crafting unless its just random when you click create, as recipes which is just plain false.



Thats the ideal, but doesn't always happen, especially one year into retail when most peopel are level 40 and want to change a profession. You still have to kill countless lowl level things for the recipe materials in order to level up despite not getting XP from them, or grind money to buy them, etc. It is thus no less a grind, whether that is a good thing or bad thing is not relevant.

Ok, i will concede that it will be a grind if you fail to begin your tradeskill until you are level 40, but do you concede that there is at least plenty of room with this system for a player to not need to grind at all. If they are truly interested in crafting they will start as soon as they can and it will not be a grind. It will be another level of gameplay for their level. I say it is not grinding because not every player will see it as a grind. It all depends on their situation and how they approach the system. Again you seem to be viewing things from 1 perspective and ignoring all other ways to approach the system. There is room to play it and never think of it as a grind. I have already conceded though that it is possible for some people to have to grind if they ignore crafting until much later. I think thats how it should be don't you? If someone does crafting and lets RvR slide for a bit it'll never be a grind to them but they'll have lower Renown. Decent trade. If you focus on RvR and never craft until you're 40 and figure what the hell, then its gonna be a grind cause you, personally CHOOSE to wait so long. Your choice not the system. The system doesn't fail precisely because it offers a choice.


This isn't just me. The system fails the player, since it gives them an option to get around it. Why don't people do World PvP objectives in WoW? Because it gives much much lower honour points than battlegrounds. Sure, you have a few who persists because it's "fun", but most people don't bother despite the fact they have a "choice". In the same way, players here have a "choice", but it is as much a "choice" as the choice between World PvP and instanced PvP in WoW.

That's different. They are grinding honor both ways. WoW is one big grind please leave your WoW sterotypes at the door. This is not WoW. People here have a choice of how to play the system with their time. This is not a means to another end here. Some people enjoy crafting just for itself. These items are not essential to RvR, even at end level. I think that choice is precisely why this system is so great.


I'm trying to look at it from a general, average person, pespective here, since that will be the majority of WAR players. I suggest others start doing the same.

You are looking at it from the perspective of an Average WoW player. Someone who plays that game is in a defacto grind all the time anyway. WAR will not be as similar to WoW as you think in how its players interact together. Different games effect how people will interact and approach the world and its citizens. I think your perspective on this issue is very narrow. The playstyles you believe to predominate are in fact a fairly small hardcore part of the population. I've played many many many MMOs. WoW, UO, EQ, AC, Neocron, SWQ, Eve, etc, etc. I've met many many different types of players. I can see where you're coming from, though. Every WoW player does act much like you say. That is that game. That is not how everyone will play. WoW rewards that kind of playstyle so it predominates. It will not predominate in WAR.

[Getout]

I love that fact we will not be making our own armor and wepons. That will save alot of headache.

The crafting in this game is not going to be a must in this game. if they keep it as it you will not feel left out if you do not have your crafting maxed out soon after you level.

The one thing I am worried about is it seem you will need to depend on other to craft items. Also who exactly will they get rid of the grind? Will crafting have it own exp and if I wait till a higher level will I get an exp bonus to level up faster?

[Esraymuk]

That's different. They are grinding honor both ways. WoW is one big grind please leave your WoW sterotypes at the door. This is not WoW.

Hows it any different? It's the same principles. "this is not wow" is such a cop-out counter argument to any examples based on WoW.

That is absurd. That is ALL CRAFTING.

Yes exactly, that is all crafting more or less. This crafting system is as recipe based as any other, it's no different.

Ok, i will concede that it will be a grind if you fail to begin your tradeskill until you are level 40, but do you concede that there is at least plenty of room with this system for a player to not need to grind at all.

There is room, yes, but in the same way there is room in WoW's supposedly "grind heavy" crafting system to "not grind" by your definition as well. Again, this system has no less grind than something like WoW's.

You are looking at it from the perspective of an Average WoW player.

Exactly, and the average WoW player is the sort of person who will likely play WAR. Like it or not WAR is basically a revamp of the same systems WoW uses, and inevitably attracts the same type of people. WoW has opened the gate to a whole new batch of MMORPGers and WAR will capitalise on that.

[Nerissa]

ent.



There is room, yes, but in the same way there is room in WoW's supposedly "grind heavy" crafting system to "not grind" by your definition as well. Again, this system has no less grind than something like WoW's.



It dumps the endless grind for specific recipes that only drop off of specific mobs in specific zones that only Alchemists can see the recipe drops off of and they bind to you so you can't buy them off the AH either...

It dumps the world drop recipes that always seem to be sold by price gouging asshats.


It has less grind by virtue of not making you acquire a recipe in order to make anything. Will it have a skill rank grind?

Of course. I don't think you could dump the concept and have what remains be called "crafting". And I bet if you had to dump skill ranks the first thing that what you could make would be tied to is level.

Furthermore, if they do not do something dumb like make powerful profession-only items, "switching" professions is a moot point since there would be no pressure to switch. No Drums to chase after. No Stunherald. Nothing. There would be nothing that would penalize you for not having Y profession, so you could simply have an alt with Y profession, so unless you are so opposed to alts that you don't roll one... (Most players have an alt. a lot have more than one alt)

The ubergatherer syndrome is gotten around by the specific nature of the profession limits. One gathering, one crafting. There is no benefit to not taking a crafting profession on an alt since you can't grab more than one gathering prof, so you might as well take the craft.

[Kintanu]

Exactly, and the average WoW player is the sort of person who will likely play WAR. Like it or not WAR is basically a revamp of the same systems WoW uses, and inevitably attracts the same type of people. WoW has opened the gate to a whole new batch of MMORPGers and WAR will capitalise on that.
Finally we see the truth behind you. Your problem is not with WAR, WoW, EQ1/2, But with all MMOs. With your perspective, Everything in the world is a recipe based system. You will NEVER be satisfied with any system anywhere with that view.
You are viewing WAR through WoW colored glasses. That is why no matter how people try and explain or convince you otherwise, you still have those glasses on and refuse to remove them.

When EA mythic promised to create a recipe less system, they meant the past systems incorporated by other games even before WoW that forced you to learn a recipe in order to make an item. If you did not know how to make it, then you could not make it. If you want to admit it or not, they have kept their promise. You do not have to find the recipe to create the item, but simply gather the materials and make them. That is what they set out to do, and they have delivered on that promise.

Your argument of having a crafting system with no recipes is illogical. Think of an inventer who just invented a new item and gets a patent on it. Now everyone know how to make the new item since it is on file at the patent office. if anyone wanted to make the same thing he/she can look it up. Now are you trying to tell me that thats a bad thing? that, that is counter productive?

Or better yet, lets look at Legos. In the past MMO's they give you a bag of Legos and an instruction booklet. They told you that in order to increase your skill and create the more complex structures that you have to make XX items 25 times. Then you get a new book and you create the next items 25 More times.

What WAR has done is gave you the Legos and say build what you want. If you try for the hardest thing first you will most likely fail because you have not developed your skills high enough yet. What WAR did was give you the freedom to build what ever you wish with those Pieces. Now if someone decides to Write a book on all the different combinations of what you can build with those said pieces, then that is fine. The point is is that WAR does not Force you to use the book and only the book. War lets you Create the book.

[Esraymuk]

Your argument of having a crafting system with no recipes is illogical. Think of an inventer who just invented a new item and gets a patent on it. Now everyone know how to make the new item since it is on file at the patent office. if anyone wanted to make the same thing he/she can look it up. Now are you trying to tell me that thats a bad thing? that, that is counter productive?


My argument isn't for a crafting system without recipes, it's the argument that the Mythic team is BSing about a "Non-recipe" system, where it essentially is a de facto one.

You are viewing WAR through WoW colored glasses. That is why no matter how people try and explain or convince you otherwise, you still have those glasses on and refuse to remove them.

I'm trying to think from the perspective of an average WoW player, yes, but that isn't a bad thing -since a lot of WAR players will have played WoW before. WAR is just a PvP version of WoW, no matter how much they go on about uniqueness. Many concepts are based or ripped straight off WoW, along with some additional new ones. This isn't a bad thing, as it will help attract the MMORPG market who've mostly all played WoW, and as such it is necessary to discuss this game in relation to games that the majority of it's eventual players will have played.

[Coreleckan]

Personally I think the system is pretty nice, has the ability to appeal to everyone and gives a bit of a different experience from the WoW one for example. I remember finally seeing the damn Spell Power recipe drop in MC after about 80+ or so runs, and at that time i was on my alt since my main char was well beyond Nefarian. Some random bloke who quit the game a week later got it, didn't make me all that happy.

So taking the needed recipe drops away is a big plus in my book.

I really don't understand why they seem to stress the point that it ain't a grind, if salvaging and butchering ain't grinding I really don't know what is. Ofc you kill the mobs as you lvl and do quests but that doesn't remove the fact that at some point you will be maxlvl. IMO most people don't go running out in the wilderness to kill mobs when their a bit bored so its always gonna be a grind element.

Other than that it feels pretty thin with just trinkets and potions. Might just be me being used to WoW and it might turn out that having crafting as just a minor complimentory part of the game ends up being good. But atm I wouldn't mind more.

[vanza001]

My argument isn't for a crafting system without recipes, it's the argument that the Mythic team is BSing about a "Non-recipe" system, where it essentially is a de facto one.

The devil is in the details, bro. You can't see the subtle differences which will make this crafting system play and feel much different than WoWs. Those subtle differences are detailed quite thoroughly in my other responses. Good day.

[Nerissa]

Le sigh. I guess you peeps just want to go at it. I'll leave your little private war to yeselves then.

[Gloovish]

It's a wii! It's not a ps3 or xbox 360. It's a wii.

[Warbear]

This crafting system sucks pretty hard tbh. How exactly does this system prevent "making stuff for levels"? I'm still going to be making X amount of "Low level talisman Y" in order to get to a higher level, and to progress from there I will be making "X amount of talisman Z" to level up, etc, until I reach the level where I can make useful talismans.

Now, I don't really mind making useless crap to level, but I really don't see the excitement of making a few talismans and potions - it's all supporting stuff, if you see what I mean. Theres no MEAT to it, it's not possible to make some really useful stuff, e.g. powerful weapons. It can't be that difficult to make a system whereby some of hte really really powerful weapons can only be crafted, using ingredients dropped from powerful mobs, e.g. the king.

The only thing innovative about this system is the lack of thought and effort put into it. It seems like an aside rather than a real part of the game. All the "you're a soldier not a craftsman so you shouldn't be able to make armour/weapons" is such BS, and it's essentially just an excuse to not make a proper crafting system.


Because for 50% of the time, you'll be making consumables... Meaning you need to make several of them to last you a while. Make them as you're leveling and you'll out grow and raise your crafting at the same time. If you're rank 40, and want to start a new crafting prof... then yes, you'll be grinding your way to the top.
Can't have it all man. To say it sucks is your opinion, and you're entitled to it... but have a valid reason.

Nothing pleases everyone. But if you get the majority, you're on to something. Personally, I like the concept, with a little skepticism on the cultivation. I'm a bit iffy with the soil, watering, and plant feeding part. But I don't know enough about it to really say if I will like it or not.



I really don't understand why they seem to stress the point that it ain't a grind, if salvaging and butchering ain't grinding I really don't know what is. Ofc you kill the mobs as you lvl and do quests but that doesn't remove the fact that at some point you will be maxlvl. IMO most people don't go running out in the wilderness to kill mobs when their a bit bored so its always gonna be a grind element.


It's a harvesting process, much like looting a corpse, only you gain a skill point. Is it that much of a problem that you gain a skill point for looting the corpse for useable items, thus labeling it a 'grind'?

And PLEASE for the love of all that is WAR... can we not always have WoW in a WAR topic?

[Xterminate]

However you twist it, 2 crafting professions is not enough. "But they will give more when it launch!!!" Yes, perhaps, but I highly doubt they will add the number of professions required to make it interesting (at least an additional 4 crafting ones).

Overall, the system appears to be poorly thought through.


It's a harvesting process, much like looting a corpse, only you gain a skill point. Is it that much of a problem that you gain a skill point for looting the corpse for useable items, thus labeling it a 'grind'?


The definition or 'grind' is to do something repeatedly. Yes, gathering professions are likely a grind, sorry. It is called 'grinding' for a reason (when you kill mobs all night to get item X or cash).

[Coreleckan]

It's a harvesting process, much like looting a corpse, only you gain a skill point. Is it that much of a problem that you gain a skill point for looting the corpse for useable items, thus labeling it a 'grind'?

And PLEASE for the love of all that is WAR... can we not always have WoW in a WAR topic?Well, for the first bit it all comes down to how you define a grind. I see grind as something repetative, i may think its quite fun at times and not mind doing it, but in my eyes its still a grind.

As for the mentioning of WoW, well, as far as i've seen the games are pretty similar in some ways so its just logical they get compared alot. Don't see what the fuss is about really.

[stiltskin]

[quote=Esraymuk;868987]My argument isn't for a crafting system without recipes, it's the argument that the Mythic team is BSing about a "Non-recipe" system, where it essentially is a de facto one.

You hit the nail on the head there . Every combination possible in game must be on a Mythic spreadsheet somewhere . Sure, we experiment and 'discover' a new recipe which adds to out ToK , but the name and combo will already be there and decided well before the game comes out.

As for the grind thing , I'm sure anyone could call anything a grind in principle . The basic idea I assume from the description made by Mark jacobs is that there won't be 'leveling up' in crafting per se.
I mix A , B, C and D and 'discover' it makes E - adds to ToK
I mix B , C , D and F and discover it makes G - adds to ToK, and so on

As I level up my char to next zone , I find newer stuff to use and experiment with. The more I experiment , the more recipes I add . Yes, Im repeatedly experimenting , so you could call it a grind , but I could make 'E' as many times as I wanted but it dosen't add to my 'level' as it only counts the first time I discovered it.
What you say about level 5 potions is a good point also , but in the same way you experiment on the ah , if something isn't wanted or theres too many, you make something else and use your mats on something else. Supply and demand.
I agree with you on the spoiler site ie wiki's etc though , as thats what they are , and a lot of people will do just that . If you avoid them , the game will be more interesting and have more longevity. But, the nature of the beast says a good proportion will always be looking for any 'I win' aspect they can find with as little effort as they can.
To reference back to wow , before they changed the honour system , most were clammering to get into a raiding guild to get their epics to 'pwn' in the bg . Once they changed it to welfare epics , raiding took a back seat to most apart from the very dedicated pve'ers. Least effort for easiest reward .
2 crafting professions does appear a bit shallow, I agree . But , based on what they plan the game to be , I think they have little choice without making the war effort a back seat to lots of people crafting or standing around a main city chatting and dueling all the time.
Nothing is perfect, and WAR will be far from it for everyone .

[Stiltzkin]

One item decides WHAT KIND of potion it is... cultivating gives you main ingredients. The other 3 (he hinted some containers have more than 3) slots are for materials that supplement the potion. Yes you will only be able to make as many different kinds of potions as they have main ingredients but the ability to choose how you supplement them is what makes it non recipe based. In a recipe based system it has a set duration and a set value requiring specific items to make it. In this system you get the options of using the limited items you have available to you and thus the duration and potency fluctuates depending on your situation.

I think you guys added in some high and lofty goals to his "I didn't want a recipe based system," comment. All he meant is what I just said and they accomplished it. It is not a de-facto recipe based SYSTEM. The system is more open then a recipe based one. There will be players that only want the best possible potions but people will be able to decide for themselves what those are. (long lasting, high potency, etc.)


As far as the wikis go:
I foresee charts declaring what the effects of supplementary items are. I don't think it will tell you what to use. You can follow their chart and see the item that gives the largest boost in the effect you desire and go find them. That's what I predict happening.

[jim1398]

My argument isn't for a crafting system without recipes, it's the argument that the Mythic team is BSing about a "Non-recipe" system, where it essentially is a de facto one.


You are misinterpreting what they mean by 'non-recipe'.

There always has to be some recipe, that's just the way games work. It has to be coded into the game that if you take item A and add item B, you get item C (as an example), there is simply no other way to do it. So in that sense, yes, there are recipes. However the point is, when they say 'it's a non-recipe' system, they mean you can mix items in any way you want, rather than having to follow strict recipes. If you have item A and item B, you can go ahead and mix them together, you don't need to have the recipe in order to do it.

So while they haven't created an absolutely recipe free system (since that is impossible), you can create items without following a recipe given to you by the game, you can just mix a bunch of items together and see what you get. That's where the 'non-recipe' part comes into it.

[Archerion]

I still dont see what this have to do with crafting rocks though.

[Stiltzkin]

If I throw in a bunch of different rocks and mixed them with water and sand then let it dry... Is it a recipe based system or not considering I got to choose which rocks to mix with the water and sand?


Yes I just mentioned how to craft sedimentary rocks.

[Nerissa]

However you twist it, 2 crafting professions is not enough.



It's perfect for a system that is focused on augmenting your character rather than making gear. I mean, can you come up with another profession that revolves around augmenting your character that doesn't step on the toes of Apothecary or Talisman making?


Even if you manage to come up with one... can you come up with FOUR?

[Warhammer Tarthir]

Well i hate the crafting grind..and im loving this new type of crafting mythic has come up with.....it wont be a grind at all i think it will probaly be fun!

[Aeron Dyl]

I'm going to go back a little here...

So far we know:
(1) that we can mix and match ingredients to make different items.
(2) this is a non-recipe based system as stated by the Devs.
(3) there is 2 crafting skills and 4 gathering.
(4) if what your trying to make becomes "unstable" it breaks the container and you retrieve your materials.

All of these things (excluding the limited crafting choice at the moment) are great ideas to throw a new twist on crafting. This is my opinion and yours can differ.

What people seem to be forgetting here that there is multiple careers and multiple career styles (talents) for those careers. So, when someone wants to make a potion, lets say intelligence, maybe a disciple may want to throw in a little initiative stat in the mix to prevent cast time reduction. But maybe a shaman, since he is ranged and doesn't have to worry about being beat on all the time, wants just a pure intelligence flask. This crafting system lets different careers and different play styles form the items they need and form what suits them.

There wont BE any "super" recipes mixes of ingredients because each potion maker will make his potions the way he plays. This allows for experimentation to find the best mix of ingredients for that person, eliminating most of the negative posters arguments here. Another point I would like to bring up is that if your potion blows up in your face, you retain the ingredients, you just loose the container, which will probably be a dime a dozen from a merchant.

The "grind" exists in every crafting system, that cant be helped, but this system has just a tad less than the others. Which is a good thing right? If your just trying to level up you crafting skill, and you don't care what the potion ends up as, you can just throw in every thing into a pot and mix it up. You don't need to follow a recipe to level up, it will be easy to level from a new profession to a level 40 rank profession. The items you need to gather comes from killing monsters, you will level your gathering skill as much as you kill monsters, if you like to PvE you will have a lot of extra crafting items just laying around.
If you try to level a new crafting skill when you respect you have to go kill low level monsters, which you can one shot? Come on it wont be that hard to re-level, but yes, it's still a grind.

In my opinion this is a very fine crafting system.

[peedei]

This crafting system sucks pretty hard tbh. How exactly does this system prevent "making stuff for levels"? I'm still going to be making X amount of "Low level talisman Y" in order to get to a higher level, and to progress from there I will be making "X amount of talisman Z" to level up, etc, until I reach the level where I can make useful talismans.

I think your only restricted by your own level i.e. your tier, if your level 20 you can only use reagents level 20 and below - I'm not sure but I think he implied that at least at one point.

But in fairness it's not out anyway, remember not to complain about things that don't exist, it is indeed a waste of time.

If your just trying to level up you crafting skill, and you don't care what the potion ends up as, you can just throw in every thing into a pot and mix it up. You don't need to follow a recipe to level up, it will be easy to level from a new profession to a level 40 rank profession.

Thats a very good point, if you just want to level up the proffesion, just chuck in whatever you got, you don't have to hunt around for that bear paw despite the fact every time you kill a bear it should have 4 paws to butcher from its limbs but game mechanic drop rates dont recognize this. None of this endless farming for specific mats IF! you just want to level it up and imo that is just what we needed all along.

Edit: Very nicely put, to the below poster

[Sarevok]

I am realy liking this system actually.

Apendex.
A. Comparisons.
- 1. Morrowind.
- 2. FF7.
- 3. Might and Magic.
- 4. Legend of Skull Keep.
- 5. Imperium Galactica 2: Aliances.
- 6. WoW.
B. Personal thoughts on WAR crafting
- 1 Economy for craftables
- 2 Economy for matts
- 3 Usefullness of craftables
- 4 what I would like to see changed

I know people hate comparisons to WoW, so I will compare it to other video games I've played as well.

First off Morrowind.

This system sounds a lot like that system, you go around and collect things, you can make anything you want, but sometimes things you make don't work out very well. You add different things in your calcinater (or whatever it was called) and you could make potions.

FF7.

More then the combat, story, or characters I liked materia in that game. I had a base effect (say Lightning) it had different ranks (1 2 3) and I could then modify it. I could put an "all" so it hit everything, or I could put an "effect" and then it either made my weapon do more damage or it made me take less lightning damage. Hades effect on armor for example made me imune to status ailments. In WAR, it looks like you can do something similar, you have you base thing, and then you can choose which effects you want more of. Perhaps I am going to pvp for awhile and just want a ton of pots without growing alot. Maybe I'm going to go out adventuring and just want long lasting pots. Maybe I want one super healing pot and 12 regeneration pots... Experementing will be very fun.

Might and Magic.

It was a pretty straightfoward game. I could make potions in it as one of the abilities. at rank 0 I could make yellow, red, and blue potions. At rank 1-3 I could make purple, orange, and green potions. Then it started to get realy complex, up to the point where you could make black potions that combined a white and several other potions to create a permenent stat increase of huge porportions. It was fun to mix all of those, even if I did know which ones to mix. It was fun just mixing them, put me more into the game then say WoW, where I set it to "15" "create" "afk"

Legend of Skull Keep.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/197187/47932
Check out the spells section at .4 down there. Sure, there were some guides out there somewhere, but overall the system required you to experiment as well, making the best spells you could, but at the same time, letting you choose which is the best spells. Did you cast max rank stuff all the time and deplete your mana or did you use weaker spells set at weaker ranks to cast a whole bunch of times? Or did you just use deffensive spells and just used warriors to attack with?

In WAR, even though there will be guides telling you what you can make, you will still need to experiment to decide what works best for YOU, at what TIMES, while doing WHAT. The system is very flexable sounding.

Imperium Galactica 2: Aliances.

One of my favorite space rts'. You had to balance research with production in that game like many others. But there were alot of things to research. So many in fact, that in the end your best ship couldn't have more then half of your inventions.

Which to choose from, 12 torpedos or 2 anti matter rays? An extra 200 shields or an extra Mezon gun? Did I use cloaking, Ecm, anit ecm, or stealth detection? Did I forgo that extra torpedo bay for the ability to carry 2 more mega tracked tanks?

Tons of choices, but I could desighn the ships however I wanted and make different kinds. I could have some that had a few huge guns that did a lot of damage but couldn't recharge that fast. Or I could have a heavily shielded ship that just used a bunch of weaker attacks but could carry more tanks (less chance of exploding because of the shields ya know?)

WAR sounds alot like that. Yes, there will be optimal things, but there will be specialized things as well. pots and trinkets that have a specific purpose. More then experimentation perhaps this system is customizable to the max.

And now I would like to talk about Joe-Joe. He's my 820ib Gorila living in my house. He's in the kitchen atm.

World of Warcraft.

In wow there is currently a disparity between all the crafts. Engineering has goggles that are on par with T5. BSing has some great weapons. Leatherworking has a feral druid set on par with T4 and drums.

But as cool as those are, how good are they as crafts, realy? Enchanting, Jewal crafting, and Alchemy are the only proffesions you can sell the end result of and not just the mats. They allow you to constantly be making more of your craft. Once I got to 375 tailoring I basically never made anything again other then bags for my alts and a leg enchant every once in a great while. Once I hit 375 engineering, all I ever did was make mana pot injectors once every couple weeks.

My enchanter sells enchants alot. Every hunter and druid wants the 35 agility. Every caster wants my spelldamage to weapon enchant. Every warrior wants mongoose.

My friends (alchemy and jewel crafting) make tons of pots everyday. They sell blue jewels all the time. These three crafts are different compared to LW BS Engineering and tailoring. These three crafts are vital to the in game econemy. The only thing that comes close is maybe bags.

So what are the purpose of these other 4? epic gear. In WAR, Gear is going to come from RVR or PVE. NOT crafting. This is making some of you upset, as you consider the only good proffesion to be the one that gives you gear. What Mythic is looking at is seeing what a proffesion should give you. What should a proffesion do in this game? They decided that giving gear was not the purpose of proffesions in WAR. Talismans and Apothocary are all about limited usages from the sounds of it. A continual, never ending, need to craft more and more things to keep up with you and your friends's consumptions of them. That is evolutionary. A game where you craft not for longterm upgrades but instead for consumables, requiring different gathering skills instead of just one.

On a side note (don't want to bash wow just comparing this to other games I've played with crafting) Leveling with your proffesions for the most part was stupid. I spent, on an alt, gold so that I could have max level blacksmithing for my level. I had an axe that had a level requirment of 13 I think it was. By the time I could use it, I had found a green shoval that was better. Crafting, except for the last teir of it or a few items every 75 levels or so, were useless. Utterly, and completely, unusable compared to random world drops and instances. WAR says they are trying to steer away from that. But in order to avoid one or the other, either gear rewards from rvr and dungeons would either have to be balanced with crafting. This would make less of a need to rvr or do dungeons. The developers decided that that was not what they wanted with their craffting system.

Now for what I think the crafting system will be like.

Economy.


Selling crafts.
Having only two proffesions might meen that there won't be that big of a demand for finished products... But then again, it might meen that since they are both (from the sounds of it) consumable creations it might be feasable that the toon you play alot might need the other proffesions wares real quick. Maybe you will need to buy a few energy pots real quick before you head out somewhere. It's hard to say on that part.

One thing's for sure though...

Selling mats.

Having each crafting proffesion require 2-3 gathering proffesions will make some form of trade not only practical, but necisary. And I don't think guildies are going to like you well enough to send you all thier stuff so that you can craft stuff when they could trade with someone else so that they could craft stuff. So I am very certain there will be a healthy amount of trading mats, which is something that I like in an mmo.

Usefullness of Crafts.

I don't know how effective consumables will be, but looking at vids of the pace of combat I think that tactical usages of pots and whatnot could be very powerfull. If you're a healer and you're fighting a tank and he's just doing a little more damage then you can heal through, then using a huge healing pot could be the difference between victory and a dirt nap. I don't know for sure though, I'm not in beta and beta isn't the release game.

What I would like to see changed.

What I would like to see changed is adding one more crafting ability and one more gathering ability for variety sake, which to me is the only problem I see with this system. Variety of crafting proffesions.

[Kintanu]

You beat me in post length, I concede Sarevok.

[stiltskin]

If you try to level a new crafting skill when you respect you have to go kill low level monsters, which you can one shot?

You can still one shot them when you turn into a chicken ? :D

[peedei]

You can still one shot them when you turn into a chicken ? :D

we have a winner!

[Stiltzkin]

Why would you be leveling your profession in an RvR zone? or an enemy PvE zone?

[logicalmayhem]

after thinking about this more a better solution is going to be much simpler

1 crafting 2 gathering.

so you can chose either crafting profession and its skill and then either scavenging or butchery.

then simply for expansions you just have 2 add professions in pairs so a Crafting and the gathering skill that matches it

usaly when anything is this simple and el agent it just makes sense

[Kintanu]

The thing is, They are limiting it so that gathering professions actually have a use. WoWs system made it so its basically one node per profession. you would not go hunting for rocks if your an alchemist. EQ2s system allowed anyone to gather anything, but you only had one profession. Since everyone could gather, you didn't need to bother socializing because you could do it yourself.

What WAR wants you to do is make it so what ever you do it matters. Thats been EA-Mythic's goal from the begging. Everything you do in PvE, RvR, PQs. All of it matters. So why would they suddenly shift off of that path for crafting? That is why its One Profession and One gathering. That is also why Each gathering is used by both profession. No gathering goes under used or has no use.

This also allows for more socialization. If you need butchering matts, then go talk to a butcher weather in guild/alliance or not. When I played WoW and EQ2 (in the begging before the first expansion) you could pretty much play the game solo and never have to interact with anyone. EA-Mythic does not want that to happen. They want to keep the MMO factor alive. Sony saw this problem and their solution was make all the mobs tougher so you would be forced to group up for pretty much everything. EA-Mythic does not want to take that route, so they designed it so not one person could be independent or self sustaining.

For example, look at the RvR combat. Its based on group combat and tactics. So they also incorporated that into crafting. Everyone can do damage... Everyone can basically do Apothecary/Talisman crafting, but not everyone can heal/Rdps/etc. so thats where gathering is isolated. To become the best at crafting, you WILL need other peoples help. Remember some of the best gathering items comes from PQs and RvR rewards. So if you have some help with some people, then you can combine the best and see what potion/talisman you can make.

Once people realize that EA-Mythic does not want anyone to be self sustaining, but to socialize and depend on your fellow realm mates and come together as a coalition, then maybe they can start to realize that this crafting system is not all that bad. All of this fits into EA-Mythic's overall theme.

[c_vadnais]

even WoW with it's relatively shallow crafting system is more interesting than this; at least you can make some interesting and crucial stuff - i.e. crafting is a CRUCIAL part of the game - you NEED it to succeed.

Now that's an exaggeration. I've played WoW since release and i've never NEEDED to have crafting to succeed...ever. The only crafting i've ever had was engineering with one character and it was only for catseye goggles. You in no way whatsoever NEED crafting.

I hated the boring grind of WoW involving you running mindlessly from one node to the next for hours only to turn around make 4 out of the 1,000,000 widgets you need to actually make the potion/armor/weapon/etc that was even SLIGHTLY useful. I for one like the system, sure it could turn out crappy, but im keeping my hopes up trusting Mythic to do their jobs.

[Esraymuk]

You need potions to succeed. You used to need BS items for fire res (if i remember correctly) in MC, etc.

[XPWaRRioR]

This crafting system sucks pretty hard tbh. How exactly does this system prevent "making stuff for levels"? I'm still going to be making X amount of "Low level talisman Y" in order to get to a higher level, and to progress from there I will be making "X amount of talisman Z" to level up, etc, until I reach the level where I can make useful talismans.

Now, I don't really mind making useless crap to level, but I really don't see the excitement of making a few talismans and potions - it's all supporting stuff, if you see what I mean. Theres no MEAT to it, it's not possible to make some really useful stuff, e.g. powerful weapons. It can't be that difficult to make a system whereby some of hte really really powerful weapons can only be crafted, using ingredients dropped from powerful mobs, e.g. the king.

The only thing innovative about this system is the lack of thought and effort put into it. It seems like an aside rather than a real part of the game. All the "you're a soldier not a craftsman so you shouldn't be able to make armour/weapons" is such BS, and it's essentially just an excuse to not make a proper crafting system.

You really have to understand that the crafting system of this game is really trying to benefit everyone in the war effort. The system does not aim to only benefit a single player's gold reserve.

And you really don't need a blacksmithing profession to make weapons. Heck, those can easily be implemented as quests, and that way, EVERYONE will be able to have access to it.

Anyway, for all you know, there really might just be a armour/weapon crafting by the time the game is released. Even if it doesn't, who knows maybe the next expansion? And even if it will never have a weapon and armour crafting profession, doesn't bother me at all. Why? Because this isn't Warhammer Online: Age of Industrialization.

ps: I really can't believe you said "The only thing innovative about this system is the lack of thought and effort put into it" when this is clearly something VERY NEW and DIFFERENT (at least to me in terms of MMO's) from the other 8742834623874623874 MMO's out there. I mean come on, no grinding? No recipe grinding? Is like a dream come true.

[Nerissa]

You need potions to succeed. You used to need BS items for fire res (if i remember correctly) in MC, etc.

Resist items were wallet checks, mostly for 1 or 2 encounters per dungeon.


Potions, I will give you that. That game is balanced around however many effects you can stack on the raid. (This became most apparent when the world first guilds encountered Loatheb) Mana regen is balanced around pot spam, or it used to be... seems to be a trend against having to use mana pots at the high end for some classes/specs.





Crafting in this game is Alchemy/Enchanting. No gear. Just augmenting characters. And if you remember ANYTHING from WoW, remember this.

There is always demand for an Enchanter's services.

[gluon123]

Originally Posted by Xterminate
However you twist it, 2 crafting professions is not enough.
It's perfect for a system that is focused on augmenting your character rather than making gear. I mean, can you come up with another profession that revolves around augmenting your character that doesn't step on the toes of Apothecary or Talisman making?


Even if you manage to come up with one... can you come up with FOUR?

This is the best post in this thread. Has any complainer stopped to think that maybe the developers do NOT want people making uber armour/weapons?

They probably want people to earn them through RvR. Would you craft armour/weapons if they are inferior than what you earn through RvR?

[Xterminate]

It's perfect for a system that is focused on augmenting your character rather than making gear. I mean, can you come up with another profession that revolves around augmenting your character that doesn't step on the toes of Apothecary or Talisman making?"Augmenting your character" is basically getting better gear. Talisman making is getting better gear from what I understand it (talismans in WAR -> trinkets in WoW?). There should be more crafting professions so you can get better gear; "augmenting your character".

They probably want people to earn them through RvR. Would you craft armour/weapons if they are inferior than what you earn through RvR?In WoW you got the Arena weapons, but still people used the craftable mace. You can mix in the crafting systems with the PvP rewards without any large difficulty. And WoWs crafting system is hardly something great, and they succeeded with it (although on a very, very small scale).

Rewards should be able to come from different aspects in the game - you should, may I say obviously, be able to get your upgrades from other sources than RvR. Leaving out crafting professions that grants this, and you quickly realize that left to do this is only PvE. Considering how small part of the game PvE will be, I think it's negligable.

And you really don't need a blacksmithing profession to make weapons. Heck, those can easily be implemented as quests, and that way, EVERYONE will be able to have access to it.I think you lost what the point of professions are. Following this mindset, remove all professions and get them in as quest rewards instead, so that everyone can get it.

Even if you manage to come up with one... can you come up with FOUR?I think that Mythic is probably afraid to "copy" from other MMOs, thus making a rather minimalistic crafting system. I think this will come around and bite them in the rear, as there are several very important reasons as to have several crafting professions. From where this is going in WAR, there is simply not much choice as to what professions you would get. Granted, quality over quantity, but missing out on crucial professions such as blacksmithing, you're just not going in the right direction, or you better have a pretty nice substitute in form of something new and innovative. I have yet to see Mythic present such an idea.

[Sarevok]

"Augmenting your character" is basically getting better gear. Talisman making is getting better gear from what I understand it (talismans in WAR -> trinkets in WoW?). There should be more crafting professions so you can get better gear; "augmenting your character".

In WoW you got the Arena weapons, but still people used the craftable mace. You can mix in the crafting systems with the PvP rewards without any large difficulty. And WoWs crafting system is hardly something great, and they succeeded with it (although on a very, very small scale).

Rewards should be able to come from different aspects in the game - you should, may I say obviously, be able to get your upgrades from other sources than RvR. Leaving out crafting professions that grants this, and you quickly realize that left to do this is only PvE. Considering how small part of the game PvE will be, I think it's negligable.

I think you lost what the point of professions are. Following this mindset, remove all professions and get them in as quest rewards instead, so that everyone can get it.

I think that Mythic is probably afraid to "copy" from other MMOs, thus making a rather minimalistic crafting system. I think this will come around and bite them in the rear, as there are several very important reasons as to have several crafting professions. From where this is going in WAR, there is simply not much choice as to what professions you would get. Granted, quality over quantity, but missing out on crucial professions such as blacksmithing, you're just not going in the right direction, or you better have a pretty nice substitute in form of something new and innovative. I have yet to see Mythic present such an idea.


Actually talismans are like enchants more then trinkets.

I disagree with needing armorsmithing and weaponsmithing though. Not just at the endgame part but it just directly conflicts with other parts of the game. You make it sound like a good thing that a warrior in wow could use a storm herald instead of S2 sword. I think it would have been better to make them get weapons like anyone else.

Like I touched on in my last post, WAR's direction with crafting is consumable, none ultimate crafting. You will always craft stuff. Every new piece of gear will need new talismans. Every day you play you will need new potions.

In this way you can leave the realy good gear that you don't upgrade from casually with RVR and PVE. After doing up a mage and lock, having spellstrike pants and helm, and 3 pieces of set epics, realy made the game more dull. It's far more satisfying to get your gear from a raid or from pvp then from killing a million water elementals.

And I agree, the biggest flaw isn't the proffesions they chose, but the lack of proffesions available. I would like to see (following in their decision of 2-3 gathering skills needed for one crafting) 1 more crafting and 1-2 more gathering abilities.

[gluon123]

"Augmenting your character" is basically getting better gear. Talisman making is getting better gear from what I understand it (talismans in WAR -> trinkets in WoW?). There should be more crafting professions so you can get better gear; "augmenting your character".

We can play around the words all day. He obviously meant "augmenting" as in enhancements to existing weapons/armor/stats by using consumables like talismans/potions, etc... not the character itself.


In WoW you got the Arena weapons, but still people used the craftable mace. You can mix in the crafting systems with the PvP rewards without any large difficulty. And WoWs crafting system is hardly something great, and they succeeded with it (although on a very, very small scale).

Rewards should be able to come from different aspects in the game - you should, may I say obviously, be able to get your upgrades from other sources than RvR. Leaving out crafting professions that grants this, and you quickly realize that left to do this is only PvE. Considering how small part of the game PvE will be, I think it's negligable.


Maybe they dont want weapon/armor rewards to come from differenct parts of the game. Maybe they only want RvR, which encompasses both PvP and PvE, to generate the rewards. It would be much better system than some L33T guild grinding out uber armor/weapons for their members using pooled resources.

[Esraymuk]

So essentially, a "good system" is one in which people who are organised and dedicated people have no advantage whatsoever? This is the sort of system WoW descended into, with every scrub and noob able to get welfare epics. It's quite a pathetic system, and provides no motivation whatsoever for one to play.

We can play around the words all day. He obviously meant "augmenting" as in enhancements to existing weapons/armor/stats by using consumables like talismans/potions, etc... not the character itself.

He obviously meant nothing; he said "augmenting characters". Presumably that applies to the character itself? :rolleyes:

[vanza001]

So essentially, a "good system" is one in which people who are organised and dedicated people have no advantage whatsoever? This is the sort of system WoW descended into, with every scrub and noob able to get welfare epics. It's quite a pathetic system, and provides no motivation whatsoever for one to play.



He obviously meant nothing; he said "augmenting characters". Presumably that applies to the character itself? :rolleyes:

LoL... I always feel like your main gripe with this system is that it isn't catered to the hardcore enough. That the grinding you think you'll have to do anyway won't be worth it. Get over it. This is trying as much as possible to not exclude anyone. Crafting, specifically, is for the softest of softcores. In the interviews and videos he mentions his friends wife who never played MMOs before but loves WAR crafting. They are not making this system for you to grind out and dominate people with. Go dominate on the field for your equipment.

[gluon123]

So essentially, a "good system" is one in which people who are organised and dedicated people have no advantage whatsoever? This is the sort of system WoW descended into, with every scrub and noob able to get welfare epics. It's quite a pathetic system, and provides no motivation whatsoever for one to play.

You are so far off with this remark that it is ridiculous. How exactly will WAR's crafting allow "every scrub and noob" to get epic weapons?

"Organized and dedicated" people CAN and WILL dominate the battlefield over the unorganized scrubs and noobs. They dont need unfair means of guild handouts. The motivation is present in earning the epics by contributing to the realm's progress... not by sitting on your arse putting together free resources pooled by your guildies.

He obviously meant nothing; he said "augmenting characters". Presumably that applies to the character itself? :rolleyes:

Yes, augmentation of the character through enhancement of existing weapons/armor... not through entirely new UB3R weapons/armor that you may not have earned through RvR. See the difference?

[SharderBlade]

Please read my original post! I have commented on this issue and an easy way to resolve it.



I apologise for my oversight. They have put very LITTLE thought or effort into this system, which is evident by the fact that theres absolutely nothing unique about this system, or "new". It's not even "evolution", it's "devolution"; even WoW with it's relatively shallow crafting system is more interesting than this; at least you can make some interesting and crucial stuff - i.e. crafting is a CRUCIAL part of the game - you NEED it to succeed.

Crafting shouldn't be crucial to the game.

It's devolution that it's actual crafting rather than a make recipe after recipe?

Mmmmmkay....

[Nerissa]

So essentially, a "good system" is one in which people who are organised and dedicated people have no advantage whatsoever? This is the sort of system WoW descended into, with every scrub and noob able to get welfare epics. It's quite a pathetic system, and provides no motivation whatsoever for one to play.


You ignore the fact that in order to retain a subscriber base, that subscriber base needs a carrot to work for that seems relatively attainable, and is not utterly useless like the HWL armor eventually became.

"Welfare Epics" happen because the power of your average end-game raider or PvPer in WoW increases by such a margin that new players DO need these stepping stones in order to have some form of a good time rather than being slaughtered in six seconds, which is what happens to anyone rolling around in no resil gear in battlegrounds.


Also, in the next expansion, the developers, largely due to the outcry from hardcore players like yeself, are not going to be jacking up item power like they did with this expansion.

This places the developers in a nasty as bind. Do they balance the intro content for these hardcore raiders? Do they balance it for the rest of the population?

Their solution is to get everyone into roughly similar gear so they aren't faced with such widely differing paradigms. So they can design intro content for the next expansion content that it will be somewhat challenging for the average player without being a complete snoozefest for everyone else.



Every time I read posts like this, I am greatly thankful that your average Joe Player will never be designing games, because you people really have no idea of how to run a business (Read: subscribers are more important than whining over-achievers), or design content that is meaningful to more than one group of players.

[Sarevok]

So essentially, a "good system" is one in which people who are organised and dedicated people have no advantage whatsoever? This is the sort of system WoW descended into, with every scrub and noob able to get welfare epics. It's quite a pathetic system, and provides no motivation whatsoever for one to play.



He obviously meant nothing; he said "augmenting characters". Presumably that applies to the character itself? :rolleyes:


Are you even trying anymore? This is turning into a trolling now. You've had some great points but this is getting ridiculous.

You are saying that CRAFTING is for organized, dedicated people to get an advantage, and not just a form of easy items like in just about any other game out on the market?

Got a hint for you. Crafting is an almost solo gear grind in most cases. A grind that gives you a few realy good items that you don't have to realy work for except for killing an apropriate number of bears and pigs. You work for it, get it, and then the proffesion is useless again untill the next xpac or major patch if you're lucky.

Obviously no one wanted to read my novel, but I think even if you had you are so set in hating this system that you will not see anything good about it at all, and see bad things about it no matter how ludicrous, that it wouldn't have even mattered.

[Esraymuk]

Maybe they dont want weapon/armor rewards to come from differenct parts of the game. Maybe they only want RvR, which encompasses both PvP and PvE, to generate the rewards. It would be much better system than some L33T guild grinding out uber armor/weapons for their members using pooled resources.

Here is the post I responded to gentlemen, in which the poster insists that people who bother to organise a pooled resource system shouldn't get any benefits whatsoever. This is frankly preposterous. Why should a group of people who actually organise something not get an advantage? Might as well remove the ability to group or form a raid, with this line of logic.

I'm not saying that crafting should be the be all and end all, I'm just saying that this system has been gimped to the point where crafting doesn't actually make much of a difference in-game.

You are saying that CRAFTING is for organized, dedicated people to get an advantage, and not just a form of easy items like in just about any other game out on the market?

Yes I am; something as major as crafting in a MMORPG should allow people to get ahead if they put in the effort.

You ignore the fact that in order to retain a subscriber base, that subscriber base needs a carrot to work for that seems relatively attainable, and is not utterly useless like the HWL armor eventually became.

Yes, you're right. Joe shmoe needs something to work towards that when he finally gets it, he feels a great sense of achievement. This is the basis of MMORPGs. In WoW, theres a very little sense of achievement from getting a shiny epic S3 item because half the server has it. In addition, there is no EFFORT necessary to get it, hence welfare epics. Don't tell me that 10 arenas a week (=1 hour max) is actually enough effort to be worth rewarding with one of the best armour/weapons in the game after a few weeks?

Crafting shouldn't be crucial to the game.

It's devolution that it's actual crafting rather than a make recipe after recipe?

Mmmmmkay....

No, its devolution in that it's far more simplistic than most of the crafting systems that have come before it.

How exactly will WAR's crafting allow "every scrub and noob" to get epic weapons?

It doesn't, I never said it did. Read my post and then the post I responded to slightly more carefully; you'll note that comment was related to a point that has little to do with crafting. It was to do with the desire of people to not give organised groups any sort of advantage.

[vanza001]

I'm not saying that crafting should be the be all and end all, I'm just saying that this system has been gimped to the point where crafting doesn't actually make much of a difference in-game.

Ding ding ding. You figured it out. Crafting isn't meant to make much of a difference in the game. It is something else for you to do if you like. It is a way to create stuff that will make you say 'oh thats pretty helpful' as opposed to 'man I need more of those potions before I go into battle or I'm boned.'

[gluon123]

Here is the post I responded to gentlemen, in which the poster insists that people who bother to organise a pooled resource system shouldn't get any benefits whatsoever. This is frankly preposterous.

(1) Why should a group of people who actually organise something not get an advantage?

(2)Might as well remove the ability to group or form a raid, with this line of logic.

There are two separate issues here. The first issue has nothing to do with the second. We are talking about organized groups not giving freebies to their buddies. You are the one who is coming up with the dumb conclusion in issue 2.

I love how you selectively posted only part of what I said. I had said this:

"Organized and dedicated" people CAN and WILL dominate the battlefield over the unorganized scrubs and noobs. They dont need unfair means of guild handouts. The motivation is present in earning the epics by contributing to the realm's progress...

But you chose to ignore that completely. And now you are making ridiculous statements. Not allowing people to get powerful freebies from their guildies is apparently supposed to be the same as not allowing organized fights. Sarevok is right... you are pretty much trolling now.

I'm not saying that crafting should be the be all and end all, I'm just saying that this system has been gimped to the point where crafting doesn't actually make much of a difference in-game.

If the system is so gimped then your guild will not be using it, right? Lets see how you do ingame without any benefits of this gimped system, ok?

Yes, you're right. Joe shmoe needs something to work towards that when he finally gets it, he feels a great sense of achievement. This is the basis of MMORPGs. In WoW, theres a very little sense of achievement from getting a shiny epic S3 item because half the server has it. In addition, there is no EFFORT necessary to get it, hence welfare epics. Don't tell me that 10 arenas a week (=1 hour max) is actually enough effort to be worth rewarding with one of the best armour/weapons in the game after a few weeks?

This rant has nothing to do with the crafting system proposed by WAR. By not allowing guilds to craft overpowered weapons/armor WAR developers want you to EARN them from RvR efforts. You sit on your arse on some city and craft epic weapons using resources donated by your buddies. This is your sense of achievement ??!!

I will ask you once again... who the heck said anything about people getting shiny epics with NO effort. If anyone it is YOU who wants freebies via your guildies.

It doesn't, I never said it did. Read my post and then the post I responded to slightly more carefully; you'll note that comment was related to a point that has little to do with crafting. It was to do with the desire of people to not give organised groups any sort of advantage.

Organized groups already have a advantage (like they should) in RvR. So your conclusion is illogical and irrelevant to the discussion.

[Esraymuk]

There are two separate issues here. The first issue has nothing to do with the second. We are talking about organized groups not giving freebies to their buddies. You are the one who is coming up with the dumb conclusion in issue 2.

Since when did I talk about freebies? Organised groups help each other and give each OTHER items. I certainly won't be handing out items to people unless they've actually helped me in some way. The conclusion is that it's quite illogical to remove the advantage gained from being organised from an important aspect of an MMORPG; it's like saying "Well, heres some free money because you're too lazy to get a job. Hey, don't complain rich guy, you've still got the advantage of having more money even if I'm selectively giving handouts". Just because the rich guy is rich, it does not make selectively giving out money any fairer.

"Organized and dedicated" people CAN and WILL dominate the battlefield over the unorganized scrubs and noobs. They dont need unfair means of guild handouts. The motivation is present in earning the epics by contributing to the realm's progress...

Organized groups already have a advantage (like they should) in RvR. So your conclusion is illogical and irrelevant to the discussion.

As above. In addition, I'm not asking for "handouts" here. I'm asking for the ability to work towards something tangible, not for it to be given out.

If the system is so gimped then your guild will not be using it, right? Lets see how you do ingame without any benefits of this gimped system, ok?

I make the best of what I have, even if it is gimped. Why on earth would one stop using it just because it is inferior, since one has no other choice.

This rant has nothing to do with the crafting system proposed by WAR. By not allowing guilds to craft overpowered weapons/armor WAR developers want you to EARN them from RvR efforts. You sit on your arse on some city and craft epic weapons using resources donated by your buddies. This is your sense of achievement ??!!

Again, I'm not asking anyone to "donate" or "give" anything. I'm all for a system where crafting materials are "earned" as well. I've suggested before that perhaps some high end stuff could be earned through RvR, etc. Crafting is just another layer that I was hoping for, which this system does not provide.

I will ask you once again... who the heck said anything about people getting shiny epics with NO effort. If anyone it is YOU who wants freebies via your guildies.

Thats what some in this thread wants. And I'm not interested in "freebies" from my guildies; I'm interested in cooperating to obtain benefit for everyone in my guild, which again, this system does not provide very well.



In addition, I'm not "trolling". I'm putting forward an argument and looking forward to a response; either respond well or don't respond. Don't resort to throwing around accusations.

[Sarevok]

The conclusion is that it's quite illogical to remove the advantage gained from being organised from an important aspect of an MMORPG;


So not being able to craft resist gear = welfare items? lol. Just... lol. Is that seriously what you are getting at?


Thats what some in this thread wants. And I'm not interested in "freebies" from my guildies; I'm interested in cooperating to obtain benefit for everyone in my guild, which again, this system does not provide very well.

Then make potions and get the best enchants.

Oh, that's not what you meen? You meant that you wanted "gear." Crafting DOES NOT EQUAL epic resist gear.

In addition, I'm not "trolling". I'm putting forward an argument

Your argument is that if it doesn't have crafting recipes that drop from the tougher raid encounters then the entire system sucks. You don't care about the interface for it, the making unique things argument, the flexability, the trading of resources, or anything else that makes this different.

Your argument is that it will not be another tool (amount many) for hardcore raiders to waffle stomp people.

and looking forward to a response; either respond well or don't respond.

Well then just stop responding. You are basically making a wish list and saying that anything that falls short of your vision of what a crafting system should be just plain out sucks.

Don't resort to throwing around accusations.

I should say the same for you. You are acusing Mythic of being cheap, being liars, and being poor designers because you don't get the crafting system of your dreams, ie, where once one of your guildies gets to the big raid instances you can have him craft the best gear in the game.




Oh, I'll even give you the benifet of a doubt. You're ignoring me but hey, I'll be fair.
How exactly does making gear indicate guilds have dedication and organization you are saying they have? Is the act of giving a bunch of mats to joe so that he can make your mc fire resist pants organization and dedication? The same could be said for getting realy good enchants and pots you know.

In fact, from my raid experience, pots and enchants were bigger for the most part then gear for guilds anyhow. Didn't meen that we were super hardcore organized and dedicated, it meant that we made pots and did enchants for each other.

You have ignored all my counter arguments, my anecdotes, and my examples. You are pushing your line over and over again. Even though you are probably just trolling now, I would like to hear *why* you think crafting gear and weapons are so important for being hardcore.

[gluon123]

The conclusion is that it's quite illogical to remove the advantage gained from being organised from an important aspect of an MMORPG;

Important aspect to you because you like the freebies. The rest of us are ready to earn our EPICs through RvR. Who wants the welfare epics now?

Also, earlier you had claimed that the current crafting system would give organized people NO ADVANTAGE WHATSOEVER. That furious back-pedaling is looking quite amusing.


So essentially, a "good system" is one in which people who are organised and dedicated people have no advantage whatsoever?



it's like saying "Well, heres some free money because you're too lazy to get a job. Hey, don't complain rich guy, you've still got the advantage of having more money even if I'm selectively giving handouts". Just because the rich guy is rich, it does not make selectively giving out money any fairer.

Another stupid statement. In the current system there is no free money to anyone. But your DEMANDs do have epic freebies for yourself.

I make the best of what I have, even if it is gimped. Why on earth would one stop using it just because it is inferior, since one has no other choice.

It is irrelevant that there are no alternatives. If it is as gimped as you suggested then you would be wasting your time and money crafting these potions/talismans. Is your guild in the habit of crafting useless things? Remember these are your words:

system has been gimped to the point where crafting doesn't actually make much of a difference in-game.

Hence these must be useful and you are again back-pedaling about your other exaggerations. Its ok... you made a stupid statement, we understand.

As above. In addition, I'm not asking for "handouts" here. I'm asking for the ability to work towards something tangible, not for it to be given out.

Thats what some in this thread wants. And I'm not interested in "freebies" from my guildies; I'm interested in cooperating to obtain benefit for everyone in my guild, which again, this system does not provide very well.

Euphemisms for "I want free resources from my guildies, so we can pool them all and get me freebies. God forbid... I would have to EARN these epics through contributing to our realm's fight."

In addition, I'm not "trolling". I'm putting forward an argument and looking forward to a response; either respond well or don't respond. Don't resort to throwing around accusations.

You started the name calling by saying the developers put little or no thoughts into the system.

You are trolling. The proof is there in your previous post. I clearly noted the biggest benefits of organized activity, yet you ignored those and made ridiculous statements about how those big benefits should be the next to go.

[Esraymuk]

Important to you because you like the freebies. The rest of us are ready to earn our EPICs through RvR. Who wants the welfare epics now?

I've already stated I'm not interested in freebies. In fact, I've already made my stance on welfare epics quite clear.

Another stupid statement. In the current system there is no free money to anyone. But your DEMANDs do have freebies for yourself.


*sigh*. It's a metaphor. A metaphor that actually has no relevance to the "giving out money" bit; I was commenting on the "fairness" of the system.

If it is gimped as you suggested then you would be wasting your time, money crafting these potions/talismans. Hence it must be useful and you are back-pedaling furiously about your exaggerations. Its ok... you made a stupid statement, we understand.

A 5 year old computer is still USEFUL, but it's gimped since it can't run the latest games. This crafting system will still be USEFUL, but not as useful as it might have been were it truely revolutionary and evolutionary. By the way, thats a metaphor, in case you missed it again.

Euphemisms for "I want free resources from my guildies, so we can pool them all and give each other freebies. God forbid... we would have to EARN these epics through contributing to our realm's fight."

This must be the 10th time now. I stated that a crafting system that takes some of it's best materials from RvR would be quite good; I'm as interested in "earning" my epics as much as anyone, otherwise there would be no point playing an MMORPG if things were handed out to you.

You started the name calling by saying the developers put little or no thoughts into the system.

Thats called criticism, not "name calling" :rolleyes:

You are trolling. The proof is there in your previous post. I clearly noted the biggest benefits of organized activity, yet you ignored those and made ridiculous statements about how those big benefits should be the next to go.

My comments about how they should be the "next to go" was a sarcastic exaggeration in order to emphasise my point. I would have thought that would be obvious to most, but evidently not.

I feel as though I'm trying to explain why water is wet here. If you don't understand the meaning of posts, kindly refrain from commenting because all you are doing is embarrassing yourself.



So not being able to craft resist gear = welfare items? lol. Just... lol. Is that seriously what you are getting at?

How did you come to this conclusion? I mentioned welfare epics to back up another point of mine i.e. removing advantages that the organised have, proposed by some poster, is not the way to go, and that removing the advantage to the organised in crafting - a major part of any MMO - is a big step towards that. Craftin resist gear has nothing to do with it.

Your argument is that if it doesn't have crafting recipes that drop from the tougher raid encounters then the entire system sucks. You don't care about the interface for it, the making unique things argument, the flexability, the trading of resources, or anything else that makes this different.

Incorrect. My argument is that the system is completely bland and not unique at all. Most MMOs do flexibility and trading, its not exactly something new. Nor is it evolutionary, or revolutionary, as stated by the developers.

I would like to hear *why* you think crafting gear and weapons are so important for being hardcore.

Ok, the reason I think this is a) MMORPGs are partly about the acquisition of new gear in order to better your character, and that is one of the main goals people will strive to achieve, and one of the major reasons people will continue to play the game after hitting level 40. b) Since crafting is a major part of any MMORPG, one should be able to achieve one of the major goals of the game by doing it, IN ADDITION to doing RvR. One should not be able to "get the best gear" by only doing one part of the game.

[gluon123]

I've already stated I'm not interested in freebies. In fact, I've already made my stance on welfare epics quite clear.

Yet you fight for a system that would allow freebies. Ironic.

*sigh*. It's a metaphor. A metaphor that actually has no relevance to the "giving out money" bit; I was commenting on the "fairness" of the system.

Your metaphors are ridiculous and have no relevance to the discussion. You can use metaphors if they make sense. Just using random metaphors doesnt help.

So essentially, a "good system" is one in which people who are organised and dedicated people have no advantage whatsoever?

The conclusion is that it's quite illogical to remove the advantage gained from being organised from an important aspect of an MMORPG;

See these two statements? They have completely different meaning. I would concede that you were exaggerating if you would not have ignored the advantage I listed. But it is obvious that you are changing tune since you ignored it.

A 5 year old computer is still USEFUL, but it's gimped since it can't run the latest games. This crafting system will still be USEFUL, but not as useful as it might have been were it truely revolutionary and evolutionary. By the way, thats a metaphor, in case you missed it again.

I will show you how your metaphors are meaningless. What is this 5 year old computer useful for? If we are talking about surfing the web and NOT playing latest games then surely the computer is useful. If the gimpiness relates to web surfing then DONT use it... plain and simple.

You cannot call the computer useless for surfing the web WHILE you are surfing the web. Just like how you cannot call the crafting useless WHILE planning to use it in-game.

I'm just saying that this system has been gimped to the point where crafting doesn't actually make much of a difference in-game.

Anyways your earlier statement was not a metaphor. You made an absolute statement about the system. There is no metaphor here, there is no comparison with any other system.

The fact that you are giving a metaphor now does not change your earlier statements.

This must be the 10th time now. I stated that a crafting system that takes some of it's best materials from RvR would be quite good; I'm as interested in "earning" my epics as much as anyone, otherwise there would be no point playing an MMORPG if things were handed out to you.

Earning raw materials through RvR is still not the same as earning entire sets of armors/weapons. If you are earning the materials through RvR yourself and then you are going to craft gear yourself... what is the point of your "organized crafting activity"?

Another point... sitting on your arse, crafting epic weapons in the safety of a city using your *earned* raw materials is probably not something the developers want. Grinding your crafting and obtaining epic weapons through the grind will NOT be as meaningful as getting them through RvR. You cannot torpedo the central theme of a game because you want crafting weapons/armor.

Thats called criticism, not "name calling" :rolleyes:

Calling your posts trolling is criticism too.

My comments about how they should be the "next to go" was a sarcastic exaggeration in order to emphasise my point. I would have thought that would be obvious to most, but evidently not.

See my point about stupid metaphors/exaggerations that have no relevance to the discussion.

I feel as though I'm trying to explain why water is wet here. If you don't understand the meaning of posts, kindly refrain from commenting because all you are doing is embarrassing yourself.

Maybe you should take a creative writing class or two before posting idiotic statements on the forums? They are the real embarassments.

[Nerissa]

Yes, you're right. Joe shmoe needs something to work towards that when he finally gets it, he feels a great sense of achievement. This is the basis of MMORPGs. In WoW, theres a very little sense of achievement from getting a shiny epic S3 item because half the server has it. In addition, there is no EFFORT necessary to get it, hence welfare epics. Don't tell me that 10 arenas a week (=1 hour max) is actually enough effort to be worth rewarding with one of the best armour/weapons in the game after a few weeks?



Assuming a 1500 rated 2's team, it would take 4 weeks of points save to get the gloves.


That's a month to get the cheapest piece. It would take around 5-6 weeks to get any other piece of armor, and about 2 months to get a single weapon.

To complete a suit from arenas maintaining a 1500 rating and only playing 2's would take close to half a year. Obviously, 5's would speed up the process, but are harder to get organized and rolling.


Ironically, after their initial ratings push, a high rated team need only play the same 10 games a week in order to keep their team flagged as active and reap the benefits. They would also complete their set much quicker than people floating around the 1500's.



But what I see in your posts is another argument for exclusivity. Exclusivity of gear, exclusivity of content, you want another badge to put on your shoulder and have a server go "oooooooh" over it. I've seen them countless times over on 'those' forums before they got modded to death.


I don't think gear will be as exclusive in this game as it has been in others. For christ's sake, you unlock gear sets with renown ranks, which anyone will be able to achieve over time. You can also PvE up gear, find it on RvR opponents, and completing the King Encounter will net you the best gear for your class.

This isn't an EQ-alike. There are no big-bads that are so hopelessly big-bad that only 1% of the population within the entire game will see and kill them. There are no badges for you to put on your shoulder that nobody else will be able to attain given time.


And that, I think, is what will make the game ultimately successful for most people. The carrot is completely attainable, and you can work at it. You aren't required to jump through raiding hoops, you aren't required to play Player vs Pillar, you simply get out there, and you play the damn game.

[gluon123]

I don't think gear will be as exclusive in this game as it has been in others. For christ's sake, you unlock gear sets with renown ranks, which anyone will be able to achieve over time. You can also PvE up gear, find it on RvR opponents, and completing the King Encounter will net you the best gear for your class.



Dont you know that these epics then become *WELFARE EPICS*.

What the heck? Everyone will earning gear through RvR which happens to be the central theme for the game. How dare they?!!

My chance to get UBER gears via freebies from my guildies is completely ruined.

[Fester Addams]

Firstly, WAR is designed to be a mainly RvR game, this will heavilly affect all the aspects of the game.

I also get the impression that it will be downplaying the effect of gear, not being in the beta I can not be sure about this but the impression I get is that character advancement and player skill, not character gear will be the decider who wins a fight.

Moreover it does not seem to be geared towards a player driven ecconomy, no player trade hubs, no player owned shops...

This all to me tells of a game that does not really need a deep and complex crafting system.

Now dont get me wrong, I am a longtime player of EvE, I today mainly play the market, I have invested heavilly in invention and production.
I enjoy the crafting and ecconomy aspects of MMO's however I have only ever seen a good one in EvE.

No!
An AH can never be an interesting market on its own if you have seen an interesting one.

In WAR they do not try to match the complexity of a market system like the one in EvE, it is not the focus of the game, most gear will be loot dropped by mobs or quest rewards thus a complex crafting system is not needed.

Actually I think they cover the basics, two crafting skills, one that boosts your gear and one that boosts you or hinders your oponent (I am here asuming that powders are to be used against foes).
There is no need to crate weapons, armours, slippers or anything similar, most of thise items would be useless so why have the skill?

As for grind... naturally there is going to be grind, especially if you try to be first to 40, skilling upp crafting skills will take time and then once you have reached 40 and people who have taken the time to savor the game start catching upp and you start noticing all them nice stuff they boost themselves with you will naturally want to level upp crafting too and it will be a grind.

For people like me however that will be taking the time to learn as I level it will never be a great discrepency between my player level and my crafting skill level and thus it will be no more grind than say having to do that public quest two more times to max out my RP's to get that top of the list item.

The gathering skills I find especially interesting, the podcast did not spell this out but I like that you have two "main ingredient" skills and two "buff" skills.

Obviously planting and disenchanting will provide the main ingredients for apothecary respectivelly talisman making.
It does not seem to me that you can get main ingredients by butchering and/or scavenging but on the other hand thise two seems to give the crafting "bonus" items but not the main ingredient items.

Simple, elegant, efficient and its seems like fun.

I look forward to starting out with scavenging/apothecary.

Why would anyone want to craft rocks? It's not like you can wear them as armour or drink them like potions :rolleyes:

Wut! not wanting to craft rocks?
They are great.
Who can be without a 'blessed rock of diversion'.
or a 'chilled rock of cooling my drink'.

[vanza001]

Wow, this is still going on? I gave up on this guy pages ago. Its not what he expected and / or wants. Reason will not work here. And to Ery, all I can say is *shrug* I don't see it; where you're coming from. I don't think this misses anything. You are looking for the WoW high end crafting experience from what I can decipher. Collect rare materials, train high in a skill (grind, like you expect this will be regardless of their claims) and make bad things at least as bad as can be from the rarity of the materials and skill.

Guilds will be able to access these items much easier. There's alittle bit more of a reason why you want this. I am trying to decipher from all of your different ideas and issues with WARs crafting system what you want and all I can come up with is how high end crafting works in WoW. You don't want WoW crafting of course... you want a revolutionary and evolutionary crafting system... ...that gives you the advantages and gameplay you saw in high end WoW crafting... I know you'll be all upset that I can imply this but lets me honest. The properties of the crafting system you want are all very available in WoW except for the revolutionary and evolutionary requirement, which you don't even know what that would be. Admit it... You want WoW crafting... If this system is anything its NOT WOW CRAFTING.

[Xterminate]

This discussion is pointless. Fanbois will be fanbois. (I am not necessarily referring to the points made towards my own posts)

(don't bother replying, I wont be checking this thread any more)

[Esraymuk]

One poster insists that I'm obsessed with freebies, can't understand metaphors, and is unable to distinguish the argument for one point from the argument for another (wtf you on about? Welfare epics hasn't got anything to do with the RvR bit), another poster seems to think that this game won't have "exclusive items". (By the time someone working slow and steady gets to the uber item, patches and expansions will render that item obselete). Another poster is sure that I want WoW crafting, despite the fact that I've already made it clear umpteen times that I would like what they advertised -a revolutionary, evolutionary system that builds on what came before it, e.g. WoW, SWG, EvE, etc.

I do believe I'm wasting my time here. There seems little point me continuing to respond to every point made, since the people in question don't actually seem to understand the counter arguments to their points, and just keep banging on about freebies and welfare epics and whatever other irrelevant crap that they can think of.

[gluon123]

Yeah, I guess we have had enough of people's retarded metaphors which they think are very clever and relevant to the discussion at hand.

No point in banging one's head against the wall.

[Sarevok]

LOL!

Gluon pretty much hit the nail on the head.

But don't worry Esray, I hear WoW has new sunmotes for you to collect. Sounds like that game is perfect for someone like you, nice pve core, super crafting, and pvp is a nice little side game to do. Enjoy!

[Esraymuk]

The metaphors were entirely relevant to the poiint under discussion; whether they're "clever" or not is entirely irrelevant. I use them to drive home my point; your cognitive capabilities, not I, can be blamed if you take them literally or continue to misunderstand them.

[Nerissa]

I do believe I'm wasting my time here. There seems little point me continuing to respond to every point made, since the people in question don't actually seem to understand the counter arguments to their points, and just keep banging on about freebies and welfare epics and whatever other irrelevant crap that they can think of.


Your argument, as it seems to be, is that it's "not required".



Like hell it won't. You'd be a fool to pass up any advantage you can get, even a temporary one. They would have to be marginalized to the point of uselessness in order for them to not have an impact.

What it does NOT have, are exclusive benefits. Everyone can access what can be created. Which seems to be your beef with the system, and I'll be flat honest, it sure as hell isn't one I nor I imagine many other posters here share.

What it ALSO does not have is the giant headache that is balancing gear acquisition from profession with that that comes from other parts of the game. Powerful "for crafters only" items are actually taking crafting a step AWAY from social, and making games where people take professions not to make stuff, use some and sell the rest, but to grind profession skill for that one uber-epic item at the end. I think it's a horrible trend for crafting in general, and I am glad that WAR does not seem to be going down that path.

Mythic has decided to not include professions that would easily be marginalized. They have chosen professions whose products will be used and reused time and again, rather than professions that make piles of junk in order to get to "the good stuff". Everything you make will be useful to someone, if you don't feel it's worth the effort to sell it, trade it, send it to an alt, that is YOUR problem.



And quite frankly, you were reasonable at first, after all, Morrowind-style alchemy isn't exactly a breakthrough. But then you simply started splitting hairs, and that is quite annoying.

[gluon123]

I highly doubt there is anything wrong with my cognitive abilities. Otherwise the folks over at a particular world renowned educational institution would have told me.

Somebody surely has too high regard for his own writing abilites though. Its not very surprising... many failed authors/artists blame the public for being too simple to understand their work. Its never their own fault... oh no :rolleyes:

[Esraymuk]

Your argument, as it seems to be, is that it's "not required".

Which seems to be your beef with the system, and I'll be flat honest, it sure as hell isn't one I nor I imagine many other posters here share.

My issue with the system is listed below for clarity and summary. You can agree with them, or not, but all the points have been pretty much debated by me and several other posters over and over again in this thread. It is up to you to decide who has the better argument, based mostly on your own preferences in playing MMORPGs.

1) It's simplistic and appears to be designed to appeal to morons who can't grasp anything more complicated. As such, it reduces the appeal to people who want a more complex, involved, and interesting system.

2) It is not revolutionary. Fair enough, WAR is not a revolutionary game, as MBJ has himself said many a time (I do believe). It does not, however, fit in with the "evolutionary" concept of WAR either. It is, due to it's sheer simplicity, a backward step. Devolutionary.

3) It will not give a person the level of benefit one expects from a crucial part of an MMORPG. While someone who wants to play the game to the "max" will obviously still perform crafting, the amount of gain from doing so is insufficient when compared to how crucial the crafting systems were to many other previous MMORPGs (not just WoW). Sidelining a crucial aspect of previous MMORPGs, which this game is supposedly an evolution of, does not make for a particularly well made game.



Otherwise the folks over at a particular world renowned educational institution would have told me.
Out of interest, what "world renowned educational institute" is this?


Somebody surely has too high regard for his own writing abilites though. Its not very surprising... many failed authors/artists blame the public for being too simple to understand their work. Its never their own fault... oh no
Not really. I expect the majority of people have no issues with understanding my "work" as you so term it. In fact, the only person whos had any issues with understanding them (the metaphors in my previous posts that gluon takes literally most of the time)is you. Thus the only person being "blamed" here is you, not everyone else.

[Sarevok]

My issue with the system is listed below for clarity and summary. You can agree with them, or not, but all the points have been pretty much debated by me and several other posters over and over again in this thread. It is up to you to decide who has the better argument, based mostly on your own preferences in playing MMORPGs.

1) It's simplistic and appears to be designed to appeal to morons who can't grasp anything more complicated. As such, it reduces the appeal to people who want a more complex, involved, and interesting system.

So now anyone who likes it is a moron? Your trolling is getting funny now. Also most people think it's a lot more interesting and involved then other games without stealing the show from the main focus of the game. It fits the style of war like an old glove.


2) It is not revolutionary. Fair enough, WAR is not a revolutionary game, as MBJ has himself said many a time (I do believe). It does not, however, fit in with the "evolutionary" concept of WAR either. It is, due to it's sheer simplicity, a backward step. Devolutionary.

It's not simple. Simple collecting one or two plants, hitting the creat button, and having your stuff. Here you have to do something to get something, picking out the seed, soil, water and nutrients for one gathering proffesion, picking and choosing the stats you want in another one to min/max.

And then there are no recipes. I know you think there will be but there won't be as far as mechanics are concerned. You might know what to do to make a realy good potion but you will actually have to do it. You can't go "create 25" "afk" to get stuff made. You have to manually manipulate each thing. And then there is customization.

Instead of one type of mana pot, there could be feasably 4-5 that people will be using a lot of. Depending on mats available, and what you want it to acomplish.

The only thing simple or backwards about it is that there are only two of them.


2) It will not give a person the level of benefit one expects from a crucial part of an MMORPG. While someone who wants to play the game to the "max" will obviously still perform crafting, the amount of gain from doing so is insufficient when compared to how crucial the crafting systems were to many other previous MMORPGs (not just WoW). Sidelining a crucial aspect of previous MMORPGs, which this game is supposedly an evolution of, does not make for a particularly well made game.


First off, RVR is the crucial part of *this* mmorpg. That said, it will be quite significant, as having pots and enchants while leveling is very good, and are amoungst the most important non-resist gear checks in end game.

How the hell do you think alchemy and enchanting are non factors? Those two proffesions are the most important all around out of a great many games I've played.

(also the number you are looking for here is 3, not 2.)



Not really. I expect the majority of people have no issues with understanding my "work" as you so term it. In fact, the only person whos had any issues with understanding them (the metaphors in my previous posts that gluon takes literally most of the time)is you. Thus the only person being "blamed" here is you, not everyone else.


We understand them. We just think they're stupid as hell.


Your list is all personal bias. But you're not saying that you dislike the system. You're not saying that you would like it to be more. You're arguing that anything that you dislike is wrong for everyone, or that if anyone likes it they're morons.

I don't like Grand Theft Auto. I'm not going to say that it's terrible and a stupid license because there's no orks in it, and that you can't make a video game without an ork ffs! No. I'll just say that I don't like the genre of it.

[Nerissa]

My issue with the system is listed below for clarity and summary. You can agree with them, or not, but all the points have been pretty much debated by me and several other posters over and over again in this thread. It is up to you to decide who has the better argument, based mostly on your own preferences in playing MMORPGs.

1) It's simplistic and appears to be designed to appeal to morons who can't grasp anything more complicated. As such, it reduces the appeal to people who want a more complex, involved, and interesting system.

Every crafting system save for Vanguard's has been simplistic. People like knowing that hey, you combine X and Y, you get Z. This basic truth is simply going to be at odds with any additional layers of conditional complexity you can come up with (since any layers of component complexity only serve to increase the potential number of combinations).

The very core assumption of crafting is simplistic. (X+Y=Z). Is it any wonder that most systems end up revolving around this point? It's what the player expects.

People who want a complex and involving system are simply at odds with the majority of people, who want a system that is easy to pick up and get into on the side.


2) It will not give a person the level of benefit one expects from a crucial part of an MMORPG. While someone who wants to play the game to the "max" will obviously still perform crafting, the amount of gain from doing so is insufficient when compared to how crucial the crafting systems were to many other previous MMORPGs (not just WoW). Sidelining a crucial aspect of previous MMORPGs, which this game is supposedly an evolution of, does not make for a particularly well made game.



It may make for a very well made game.

It may, indeed, make for a very fun game.

It might not. I do believe that they are trying to step away from the balance headache that crafted gear represents, and only time will tell if this experiment is successful.


I just wish people would give it a chance before they go badmouthing it. People have this annoying attachment to the "Make piles of junk just to get to the good stuff" crafting model even though that's a horrible way to go about it.

[Esraymuk]

It's not simple. Simple collecting one or two plants, hitting the creat button, and having your stuff. Here you have to do something to get something, picking out the seed, soil, water and nutrients for one gathering proffesion, picking and choosing the stats you want in another one to min/max.

Oh, so it's collecting 4 bits of materials and banging them together? That somehow makes it complex? I can also pretty assure you that there will most likely be a button for "repeat make".

You dont honestly think most people are going to waste their time making 7 slightly different potions every evening? People are just going to collect the mats for the type of potion they want and then obtain X amount of materials, and then just leave it for 2 minutes while it bangs out the potions.

So now anyone who likes it is a moron? Your trolling is getting funny now.

Even the people who like the system admit it's quite simplistic, it's quite like the "Wii" console. Thats somehow part of the appeal. You tell me whether people who like simple things are morons or not; IMO they are. If you don't think so, then that is your prerogative. I simply came to a logical conclusion.

We understand them. We just think they're stupid as hell.
That again is your prerogative. However, if you think my argument is somehow flawed then please do elaborate.


It may make for a very well made game.

It may, indeed, make for a very fun game.

It might not. I do believe that they are trying to step away from the balance headache that crafted gear represents, and only time will tell if this experiment is successful.

You're correct yes, it may well do, but I'm putting forward the reasons why I think it may not do.

People who want a complex and involving system are simply at odds with the majority of people, who want a system that is easy to pick up and get into on the side.

I respectfully disagree. If all people wanted was simplicity and the ability to simply "pick it up and play", then people would still be very happy on Tetris or pacman. No complexity there, just pure simple fun. However, after a short while people get bored and want something more complex. If games companies tried to flog you something as simple as tetris or pacman these days, nobody would buy it. In the same way, I believe that people won't buy into this crafting system if it turns out to be as simple as it is now.

[Vallen]

I think one of the bigger problems with many crafting systems is that to make some good, anything you have to gather mats from a area 10 levels above you for a weapon/armour that will only be good for 5 or so levels.

Hopefully this new crafting system isn't like that

[Nerissa]

In the same way, I believe that people won't buy into this crafting system if it turns out to be as simple as it is now.


And coming from my perspective, I think your perspective is a bit colored by your personal bias as a hardcore gamer. Being a bit of a gamer myself, I also have my biases, and am indeed willing to admit this statement as being one of them, but I believe that the system works for what it does and is not needlessly complex.



Really, what kind of complexity do you want out of your crafting system? I think we both are agreeing to disagree here, but I'm curious as to what you want to see. You say complexity... but what is complexity to you?




"Grab and go" mentality is still in. While most games are obviously more complex than Pac-Man, every well designed game is rather simple to play. The only thing that makes a game truly complex is the introduction of human opponents.

People see graphical complexity and they think "Woaaaah, this is so much more complex than [Insert Old Skool Game Here]", when in reality, very little has changed over the years. It's rather amusing really. The thing that has grown most is the capacity for storytelling. Gameplay remains remarkably similar.

[Kaeldor]

Esraymuke, I can't understand how you don't want to see the difference between a recipe based system and WAR's system. So let's go for an example. You are a Bright Wizard/Fire Mage and want a potion which gives you a lot of ummph for about an hour, because you want to do some scenarios, but don't have much time. You have the mats for making something with increases your fire damage.


Recipe based (WoW example): You have all the mats to do a a "greater fire power potion". But well you don't have the recipe for it. So instead of making some potions on the run while you wait until you pop into the scenario, you go and grind Dark Iron Taskmasters over at the Searing George, or go grinding money to buy the recipe. What you don't do is having fun in a Scenario. So after speding some time doing something you didn't want to do in the first place, you got your recipe *cheer*.

It reads: "Increases spell fire damage by up to 40 for 30 minutes". That's it. If you want to have it work for an hour, all you can do is make 2 of it (of course in WOW you'd need more because it looses it's effect when you die). No way to customize.

Non recipe based: I have the mats, so I can do a potion. I don't need a recipe. All I need to know is how to do one. And as you said yourself, if I don't know how to do it,
I can either experiment, ask guildies, check the internet. And even better, I can not only do a potion which "Increases spell fire damage by up to 40 for 30 minutes", but maybe one which increases fire power for 25 for one hour, or one that increases it for 60 for ten minutes. Of course it could be that I dont have the right mats for that at that time, and have to settle for something less than I want. But generally I can customize much more than with a recipe based system. That is why the cooking book analogy is good: It tells me to add 10 gramm of salt, but if I like salty stuff, I can add 20, and get exactly what I want.

That is also the reason why it won't be that easy to have "max effect" potions, because of different playstyles, the needs are different. Of course there'll still be some overall bst options, and best ways for specific needs, but that is a whole lot more variety than we have with recipes so far.

And personally it sounds much more exciting. And it'll be huge boon for the average player you seem to be so concerned with, because he can do most of the stuff on his own (or in a small group), and isn't bared from some recipes like in WOW.

For the grinding thing: One point is that I get the mats largely through something I love to do anyway: kill other people (or mobs if you like pve more). I don't have to run around and grind nodes for hours, just to be able to make those potions of shadow protection (the mats being in low levels zones I wouldn't even visit anymore), to be able to fight a certain boss.

[gluon123]

1) It's simplistic and appears to be designed to appeal to morons who can't grasp anything more complicated. As such, it reduces the appeal to people who want a more complex, involved, and interesting system.

The genius of the system is in its simplicity, in not allowing organizations get free gear through pooled resources, and in re-enforcing the central concept of the game i.e. RvR. It is not our problem that biased dumbasses dont want to understand it.

Complexity does not make any system awesome by default.

Out of interest, what "world renowned educational institute" is this?

Kellogg

Not really. I expect the majority of people have no issues with understanding my "work" as you so term it. In fact, the only person whos had any issues with understanding them (the metaphors in my previous posts that gluon takes literally most of the time)is you. Thus the only person being "blamed" here is you, not everyone else.

Your expectation is not on money. The others in this thread are not as blunt as I (the exception being Sarevok... maybe :cool:). Hence it is not necessary that others will call out your BS for what it is. Your "metaphors" and over-exaggerations are retarded and I recognize that.

[Sarevok]

Oh, so it's collecting 4 bits of materials and banging them together? That somehow makes it complex? I can also pretty assure you that there will most likely be a button for "repeat make".

First off, you're over simplifying choosing your 4 bits and making something. How much more complex do you want it to be? Do you want a mini game for it? It's more complex then wow which is about 24 times bigger then anything else on the market.

You are forgetting that everything is reletive. Is this complex? Compared to what? Other crafting systems? Yes. Programming character models? no. Making things in real life? No.

Crafting in other games has been a brain dead activity. You go "create 15" "afk" then go over to the trainer. In this game you actually have to decide what to create. You have to actually think first. Not alot, but like I just said, it's all reletive.

You dont honestly think most people are going to waste their time making 7 slightly different potions every evening? People are just going to collect the mats for the type of potion they want and then obtain X amount of materials, and then just leave it for 2 minutes while it bangs out the potions.

Every evening? No. But if I liked 7 different types of potions I would make them all.
But at least you are just beginning to understand the concept, here... you acidently typed something with understanding in it.


DIFFERENT POTIONS

There you have it. I have the option to decide which potions to make. I can make, in all actuality, different types of potions. As for using all my matts to make just one type of potion, I guess I could do that. Seems silly since most people that I know like some variety, but I guess if I had a ton of time to grow the best stuff and use the best reagents to make the best healing potion of my favorite kind...

However, I probably won't be doing that as that would require a huge amount of time and I don't like spending all of my time collecting stuff so that I can have a few hours of being super powerfull.


Even the people who like the system admit it's quite simplistic, it's quite like the "Wii" console. Thats somehow part of the appeal. You tell me whether people who like simple things are morons or not; IMO they are. If you don't think so, then that is your prerogative. I simply came to a logical conclusion.


That again is your prerogative. However, if you think my argument is somehow flawed then please do elaborate.

It's been regarded to as a wii because it doesn't have the sheer oomph that wow has, where you've had ultimate items that you crafted that replaced gear that you earned through pvp and pve. It instead had more interesting mechanics and a different take on the norm. Not because it's tailored for Morons.

Your argument is flawed, not with this stupidity out break here, but because you have been saying a lot of crap. You've said that you aren't being insulting, you are saying you are not trolling, you are saying that it won't benifet the hardcore players enough, you are saying that it will be completely useless, you are saying there will be no trading or interaction with others with this system, you are saying that it will be recipe based, you are saying that compared to other mmo's or crafting systems it is too simple....

Your argument is flawed because your argument is built on presumptions and exagerations. You presume that no one will want to make more then one type of potion, and will not experiment at all. You exagerate on how easy it is when there is obviously more complexity then in other games.



I respectfully disagree. If all people wanted was simplicity and the ability to simply "pick it up and play", then people would still be very happy on Tetris or pacman. No complexity there, just pure simple fun. However, after a short while people get bored and want something more complex. If games companies tried to flog you something as simple as tetris or pacman these days, nobody would buy it. In the same way, I believe that people won't buy into this crafting system if it turns out to be as simple as it is now.

Again with "it's too simple." Simple, comared to what system? Vanguards? Realy? Star Wars Galaxy? Honestly?

You say it's like pacman and tetris, then I say other crafting systems are like tic tac toe. And yes, the person selling pacman and tetris will be more successfull then the guy trying to sell a piece of paper and a pencil.

You've been saying "elaborate" and whatnot. I think I speak for a great many people when I say

NO U!


(ps Glue, I disagree with you on the complexity as well. Let's not confuse complexity and difficulty. It will be easier to craft the things that would normally have a .5% drop rate from a raid. But the system itself allows for more tasks and variation.)

[Kintanu]

Without quoting anyone from this thread, let me put some more clarifications for you all to dwell on. Source (http://www.massively.com/2008/06/02/massively-goes-to-war-insights-into-warhammers-crafting-system/)

Once they get into they game, they can start out and get their first few skill levels in a particular skill, at no risks, the guy in the store will just sell you as many of the skill level 1 stuff as you want. Then when you outlevel that, you're on your own, and you have to go find stuff. So particularly potent or rare seeds, find more PQ bosses, any particularly hard piece of content, as well as regular drops and Scavenging.

So to answer your fears of "there will be a database of recipes". You could say there will be an attempt to have a Complete Database, but if they would actually have one completed is up for debate. Considering in another interview, they also stated that you can get the best ingredients through RvR. A complete database seems like it would take many many months, if not, over a year to make and thats only if EA-Mythic does not introduce new ingredients. I fail to see how EA-Mythic will ever end the experimentation.

Imagine , if you will, how long it would take to get every single Cultivating Combination from a single seed that you can only attain from a High Level PQ. Not to mention how many combinations you can use that seed for in Apothecary. I bet that even EA-Mythic has put the rarest gathering items in the city raid PQs. Try getting all the combinations of those.

...apothecary is all about managing your stability, making sure your overall stuff is stable, and we give the players a little bar on the side. For Talisman-making, it's all about making this minor object of power as potent and powerful as they can possibly make it.

EA-Mythic has made Apothecary almost exactly like Chemistry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemistry). How this can be counterrevolutionary is beyond my comprehension. Every Chemist that comes across an unstable compound or element must make it stable somehow to put it to good use.

...wanted to focus on the things that are the most going to help players out in RvR. Viscerally. Like - drink a potion, and suddenly you become stronger on the battlefield. That's the kind of effect you want to have. One thing about talismans is I'm not sure if it's been mentioned - is while some of them last forever, some of them don't - and that enables us to put better abilities in them because we know they're not going to last.
Talisman making is kind of like enchanting, but its not going to be only useful with new armor. Having Talismans that break over time, now you have something thats going to be needed forever. Thats just for that profession. All of the gathering professions needed to make those awesome Talismans will always be in demand.

What is so evolutionary in WAR's crafting is not just how its done, but how its implemented. Nothing you choose will be useless. It will always be needed. You will not have to go out of your way to do it. You do it while you RvR.

I want to get in to RvR and kill people. So - developing the entire crafting system, which is based on Mark's design, we tried very hard to make sure that if you want to do crafting, it's not going to impact your ability to do RvR. It's not going to soak up time, you're not going to have to go to specific places and do it. If you want to do it, you can just do it. If you've got 10 seconds downtime? Make a potion, or start something growing, while you're waiting for the scenario timer to kick off so you can get in and start killing people. That's been a very important, conscious choice for us.

The idea that the more complicated the system, the more evolutionary it is, is simply bonkers to me. There have been successful games with limiting crafting to them. Take Guild Wars for example. Salvage an item and add it to another, Mix potions, add runes to your armor. Simple yet effective.

If you do not like the crafting in WAR then state so, but do not say its "sucks" or "they did not think it through" just because it does not fit into your beliefs. If that is your belief, then do not even take up a profession. No one is asking you to or telling you to.

[Stiltzkin]

I respectfully disagree. If all people wanted was simplicity and the ability to simply "pick it up and play", then people would still be very happy on Tetris or pacman. No complexity there, just pure simple fun. However, after a short while people get bored and want something more complex.

Plenty of people still love to play Tetris. It's one of the top selling cell phone games. How many people still play checkers, war (the card game), thumb war, paper rock scissors, etc.? Yes, they want something more complex AS WELL as those games. We get something complex in scenarios and keep sieges. We get something simple when we craft. Give us a good example of the level of complexity you wanted to find in crafting. Be reasonable it has to be able to be programmed into a computer.

[KingWrynn]

Esraymuk perhaps what I'm saying has already been said, since i have not read all of this thread (its gotten pretty long) but here is why i think you might be wrong about a few things:
You claim that the current system is going to be a grind that is just as boring as any other. My understanding of the crafting system is that a lot of the materials come directly off of creatures that you kill. You can run through a dungeon to get mats. You can go do a quest to get mats. You can go do pvp to get mats. You can go kill 1000 of the same mob if you feel like for mats. This gives people more options than previously to collect the mats they need to craft at their own pace. They can do so in a very casual way by pvping and questing and still get the mats they need, or they can grind endlessly as you HAVE TO DO in wow or other games for mats.

It sounds like WAR's system gives you options, and better options for that matter, so how is this devolution? With a system this flexible people will be able to treat crafting as a side, rather than a concern in its own right. When you're pvping and you run out of potions, head home, plant the seeds you picked up off of slain adversaries, harvest some shrooms and make some potions, and then head right back out into battle. There's no camping nodes waiting for a mat to spawn or for some chinese farmer to steal your node or train mobs on you. Theres no killing some uber-boss and getting a cool weapon only to have your friend get a better weapon crafted for him by leeroyjenkins69. Overall, I'm impressed by a system that tries to make crafting as simple and accessible as possible, instead of an endless grind. I know that you've already disagreed with this viewpoint, but i think ive put forth some good reasons why its not a bad concept at all. Its still debatable how it will actually play out, but the concept they have definately sounds like itll be cool if its implemented right.

And just to clarify. I don't think that sitting there crafting 100 "minor healing potions" so you can get skilled enough to make a "healing potion" is what people are concerned about when they talk about grinding. That can be a nuisance, but what people mean when they talk about grinding is going out and killing 1000 feral turkeys for turkey legs to level cooking (for example). Leveling the tradeskill is NOT a grind. Not in wow, not in this game. What IS a grind is collecting the mats to level that tradeskill, and that is what WAR is making simpler. By making all tradeskills center around combat you can just go about daily tasks (any of the examples i gave above, questing, pvping, random killing) and you get mats. Wow has some mobs that do this, but very very few. Unless im misunderstanding the system, what WAR is doing that is innovative is to do this with most if not all of the mats, so that you never (or very rarely) have to actually take time out of the other stuff you're doing (questing, pvping, killing) to go grind mats.

[Kaeldor]

Esraymuk perhaps what I'm saying has already been said, since i have not read all of this thread (its gotten pretty long) but here is why i think you might be wrong about a few things:
You claim that the current system is going to be a grind that is just as boring as any other. My understanding of the crafting system is that a lot of the materials come directly off of creatures that you kill. You can run through a dungeon to get mats. You can go do a quest to get mats. You can go do pvp to get mats. You can go kill 1000 of the same mob if you feel like for mats. This gives people more options than previously to collect the mats they need to craft at their own pace. They can do so in a very casual way by pvping and questing and still get the mats they need, or they can grind endlessly as you HAVE TO DO in wow or other games for mats.

It sounds like WAR's system gives you options, and better options for that matter, so how is this devolution? With a system this flexible people will be able to treat crafting as a side, rather than a concern in its own right. When you're pvping and you run out of potions, head home, plant the seeds you picked up off of slain adversaries, harvest some shrooms and make some potions, and then head right back out into battle. There's no camping nodes waiting for a mat to spawn or for some chinese farmer to steal your node or train mobs on you. Theres no killing some uber-boss and getting a cool weapon only to have your friend get a better weapon crafted for him by leeroyjenkins69. Overall, I'm impressed by a system that tries to make crafting as simple and accessible as possible, instead of an endless grind. I know that you've already disagreed with this viewpoint, but i think ive put forth some good reasons why its not a bad concept at all. Its still debatable how it will actually play out, but the concept they have definately sounds like itll be cool if its implemented right.

I agree with everything here, just want to add that you don't even have to head home.
You plant the seeds in containers that you carry around with you.

[Nerissa]

Try getting all the combinations of those.



You underestimate community efforts to spread information, and of course, the old standby of data-mining.


To think that combinations won't be available a few months post release is foolish and naive.

[Esraymuk]

Really, what kind of complexity do you want out of your crafting system? I think we both are agreeing to disagree here, but I'm curious as to what you want to see. You say complexity... but what is complexity to you?

Give us a good example of the level of complexity you wanted to find in crafting. Be reasonable it has to be able to be programmed into a computer.

Take EvE and SWG's crafting systems. That is the level of complexity I expect from a supposedly "evolutionary" MMORPG. I think I'm hardly being unreasonable to expect such a level of complexity.

I can't understand how you don't want to see the difference between a recipe based system and WAR's system.

But at least you are just beginning to understand the concept, here... you acidently typed something with understanding in it.

I understand the concept; I'm commenting on how through various reasons which I have explained several times before and will not waste my time explaining again (read through some of my previous posts), the system ESSENTIALLY loses the "non-recipie" or "experimental" edge that the developers tote (it becomes a de-facto system through how the majority of players will use it).

It's been regarded to as a wii because it doesn't have the sheer oomph that wow has, where you've had ultimate items that you crafted that replaced gear that you earned through pvp and pve. It instead had more interesting mechanics and a different take on the norm. Not because it's tailored for Morons.

Wii's appeal primarily to 8 year olds; go figure.

Your argument is flawed because your argument is built on presumptions and exagerations.

Exaggerations? No. Those were put foward to DRIVE HOME A POINT. My arguments are not "based" on them. Presumptions? Yes, very much so. I think you'll find that your arguments are pretty much based on presumptions as well. You assume that people will spend time experimenting with the system; you presume that every item in the system will be useful. It's a case of whos presumptions are more accurate. My presumptions are based on previous MMORPG experience. Yours appears to be based on sheer optimism.


You've been saying "elaborate" and whatnot. I think I speak for a great many people when I say

NO U!

? I've elaborated far more than some in this thread; I suggest you elaborate on how my metaphors and exxagerations are "stupid" as I asked you to do so, not skip around the point with childish retorts.

and in re-enforcing the central concept of the game i.e. RvR

A lack of a complex crafting system in no way "reinforces" the RvR aspect of a game. Stripping down a game to it's bare bones minus a complex RvR system does not "focus" it on RvR, it just lessens the quality of the game.

Kellogg

I'm going to assume you are refering to Kellogg College, Oxford, because there is no other "world renown educational institute" by that name. Incidentally bandying around supposedly "world renown" institutes does not back up your argument or counter mine in any way. Even more so when it doesn't turn out to be what you put it forward as.

[gluon123]

I've elaborated far more than some in this thread; I suggest you elaborate on how my metaphors and exxagerations are "stupid" as I asked you to do so, not skip around the point with childish retorts.

I have shown how your "metaphors" and exxagerations are idiotic. He cant help that you continue to think highly of them... *shrug*

A lack of a complex crafting system in no way "reinforces" the RvR aspect of a game. Stripping down a game to it's bare bones minus a complex RvR system does not "focus" it on RvR, it just lessens the quality of the game.

Thats just it. The lack or presence of a complex crafting system does not help or harm the game. Its the concept that matters. There are plenty of "complex" systems that are completely retarded. Hence my earlier statement... Complexity does not make any system awesome by default

The focus on RvR is re-enforced by not allowing freeloaders such as yourself get gear/resources from their guild buddies. Everyone earns it through RvR. You prove your exclusivity through fighting for your realm... not by sitting on your arse, grinding at some safe-haven.


I'm going to assume you are refering to Kellogg College, Oxford, because there is no other "world renown educational institute" by that name. Incidentally bandying around supposedly "world renown" institutes does not back up your argument or counter mine in any way. Even more so when it doesn't turn out to be what you put it forward as.

Ha, ha, ha you are a freaking hoot... and I dont mean that in a good way. Here is proof that you are as clueless as your posts. Heck its OK not knowing about some colleges, but typing "Kellogg College" in google and using the first link as data is metaphorical to how you jump to conlusions about crafting. It shows that your presumptions are FUBAR... as usual.

You could have atleast said "I dont think there is another world renowned educational institute by that name". But NO, you make a stupid blanket statement like your posts on crafting.

I take it you have never even heard of Kellogg School of Management, Northwestern University. Go look at its reputation, acceptance rate, starting salary, and MBA rankings. Now that's exclusivity. They dont accept freeloaders there.

Attending good educational institutions does not help the topic of crafting. But it certainly proves that my cognitive abilities are better than your writing abilities.

[Sarevok]

Take EvE and SWG's crafting systems. That is the level of complexity I expect from a supposedly "evolutionary" MMORPG. I think I'm hardly being unreasonable to expect such a level of complexity.

Granted, those two systems were more vital to the game world. Granted. But unless I've mixed up something here, the main central focus in those games tended to be around them as well? I meen in SWG you could do nothing *but* craft if you wanted...

And EVE, the polar oposite of this system where everything is determined by the blue print, sounds like you are spending a very, very large chunk of your game time doing different jobs for the blue prints, then researching them, getting minerals, making the actual craft.... Very fun I'm sure, realy.

But how can you take these systems that demand so many hours of work to get anywhere, and say that it's reasonable for WAR to have it? Actually forget it. You are dead set in being miserable about the system (and from what I can see the game in general) Any crafting system short of being the game's central point is for morons? There's better games for you out there then.


I understand the concept; I'm commenting on how through various reasons which I have explained several times before and will not waste my time explaining again (read through some of my previous posts), the system ESSENTIALLY loses the "non-recipie" or "experimental" edge that the developers tote (it becomes a de-facto system through how the majority of players will use it).

I know that you didn't actually read any of my original post, but I did coment on this actually. Dungeon Master two, the Legend of Skullkeep. It had a crafting (spell/potions) system similar to this. I had each and every possible combonation written down. And you know what? It was still interesting and still allowed for using different spells in different ways and power levels.

There is more variety an- oh screw it. Even with reagents coming from different pqs, instances, pvp and solo pve, with having all these ways of making stuff, in your mind there would never be a true non-recipe system. Rest asured though, most of us can see the beauty of the system. I don't know why you can't see it, after all you're toting yourself to be the only intelligent person on the webz.



Wii's appeal primarily to 8 year olds; go figure.

Link? Last I heard it was the second most popular system on the market, you could knock me over with a stick if you're saying that there are that many 8 year olds.



Exaggerations? No. Those were put foward to DRIVE HOME A POINT. My arguments are not "based" on them. Presumptions? Yes, very much so. I think you'll find that your arguments are pretty much based on presumptions as well. You assume that people will spend time experimenting with the system; you presume that every item in the system will be useful. It's a case of whos presumptions are more accurate. My presumptions are based on previous MMORPG experience. Yours appears to be based on sheer optimism.

You're arguments are based on them. Because everything is "all or nothing." I assume that some people will spend time experimenting, not just on the making potions part, but experimenting what is most economical and what is best for their character. Not all people. But at least a good chunk.

I presume that most of the items I make will be usefull, since most potions and enchants are to some body, reletive to armor and weapons. Armor or weapons, there's a good chance that you will only have a few upgrades you will actually use if you do any sort of dungeons. Potions there is a good chance you will be using a lot of what you make.

And no, your's is based off of 2-3 games where crafting was the focus. Mine are based off of games where crafting took a seat to other ascpects of the game. War's focus isn't crafting. Which one of us has the best picture of where crafting should be in this game? Also it's not optimism. It's more of a "reletive to what other systems has to offer, it's good." sort of thing.



? I've elaborated far more than some in this thread; I suggest you elaborate on how my metaphors and exxagerations are "stupid" as I asked you to do so, not skip around the point with childish retorts.

You likened non-recipe based crafting without armor or weapons as wellfare and how that would make people with jobs upset.

And having other people craft stuff for you while others have to go out and earn stuff... I don't even know how to elaborate on what you wrote down. It's simply nonsense. What ever world you live in where getting stuff from other people from easy tasks=hard work and going out and doing difficult stuff=welfare is not the same world I, or the developers live in.



A lack of a complex crafting system in no way "reinforces" the RvR aspect of a game. Stripping down a game to it's bare bones minus a complex RvR system does not "focus" it on RvR, it just lessens the quality of the game.



I'm going to assume you are refering to Kellogg College, Oxford, because there is no other "world renown educational institute" by that name. Incidentally bandying around supposedly "world renown" institutes does not back up your argument or counter mine in any way. Even more so when it doesn't turn out to be what you put it forward as.[/quote]

[Esraymuk]

I take it you have never even heard of Kellogg School of Management, Northwestern University. Go look at its reputation, acceptance rate, starting salary, and MBA rankings. Now that's exclusivity. They dont accept freeloaders there.

Of course I've never even heard of it, and I intend to take an MBA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_business_school_rankings

Ranked 8-12th (depending on which ranker, and in which year) just in the USA alone, that my dear chap is not exclusivity, that is mediocrity.

I have shown how your "metaphors" and exxagerations are idiotic. He cant help that you continue to think highly of them... *shrug*

Where exactly?

Granted, those two systems were more vital to the game world. Granted. But unless I've mixed up something here, the main central focus in those games tended to be around them as well? I meen in SWG you could do nothing *but* craft if you wanted...

Hmm, I disagree. SWG was still about PvP, with crafting being a "Main component". EvE does not "focus" on crafting; rather its about corps duking it out, with crafting again being a main component.

But how can you take these systems that demand so many hours of work to get anywhere, and say that it's reasonable for WAR to have it?

Why isn't it reasonable? It's a system where there is always something to achieve. This system will be maxed out in 2 months with little effort, much like WoW's crafting system.

If you want to get something, you should have to actually spend some time and effort to get it, not just get it given out to you on a plate.

Link? Last I heard it was the second most popular system on the market, you could knock me over with a stick if you're saying that there are that many 8 year olds.

I can't dig out a link right now, but I could have sworn I read an article which had the democraphics of Wii players laid out on a pie chart. If anyone can find one of these to either prove or disprove my point, then that'd be great.

I assume that some people will spend time experimenting, not just on the making potions part, but experimenting what is most economical and what is best for their character. Not all people. But at least a good chunk.

Thats a big assumption. I assume differently from what I have seen of players in other MMORPGs.

your's is based off of 2-3 games where crafting was the focus.

Crafting isn't the "focus" in those games, but it played a big part. And look, they're pretty damn successful games.

[Stiltzkin]

You're saying you want this game to be more like SWG or EvE than like WoW. I would rather see the game be a hit and still fun. WoW makes a lot more money than both of these games combined possibly 10 times over. I think WoW shows what the common player wants more. :)

[KingWrynn]

Of course I've never even heard of it, and I intend to take an MBA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_business_school_rankings

Ranked 8-12th (depending on which ranker, and in which year) just in the USA alone, that my dear chap is not exclusivity, that is mediocrity.
This is just snobbery, who the heck cares?! (although his post saying i go to a good school therefore i know how to think and you dont was too)
Hmm, I disagree. SWG was still about PvP, with crafting being a "Main component". EvE does not "focus" on crafting; rather its about corps duking it out, with crafting again being a main component.
Crafting isn't the "focus" in those games, but it played a big part. And look, they're pretty damn successful games.
Can you really differentiate that? Isn't that kind of a stretch? Of course the main focus of the game wasn't crafting, but he is essentially saying the same thing as you, you're just arguing over words. He's saying that a system where a crafting system isnt a "main component" (he just used the term focus, they mean the exact same thing here though...) can be good, that a simple system like that can compliment a game without drawing too much attention away from the other things in the game.
Why isn't it reasonable? It's a system where there is always something to achieve. This system will be maxed out in 2 months with little effort, much like WoW's crafting system.

If you want to get something, you should have to actually spend some time and effort to get it, not just get it given out to you on a plate.
O we completely agree with the second part of that. Which is why crafting to get the items you need is stupid. You can just get your items made for you by someone who has a good recipe by going out and grinding mats off of easy to kill mobs instead of spending that time doing something fun like questing, instancing, or rvring. I know some people like crafting, but seriously, you can see that when it is too involved it draws attention away from other more exciting parts of the game right?
I can't dig out a link right now, but I could have sworn I read an article which had the democraphics of Wii players laid out on a pie chart. If anyone can find one of these to either prove or disprove my point, then that'd be great.
So...you're opinion isnt any more valid than his opinion that what you said isnt true? You dont have any more evidence to back it up. Also im pretty sure that ive heard the opposite. The wii has had more older/middle aged people getting into gaming since its gimmiky wiimote control system gives them something they can relate to better (simulated sports with the wiimote for example).

[gluon123]

Of course I've never even heard of it, and I intend to take an MBA.

You will do as "well" in an MBA as you did in this thread with your stupid presumptions and exaggerations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_business_school_rankings

Ranked 8-12th (depending on which ranker, and in which year) just in the USA alone, that my dear chap is not exclusivity, that is mediocrity.

Sure... in Esraymuk's Ga-Ga world. Ohhhh irony, someone who doesnt even have admission anywhere is being snobbish about a school ranked 3rd/4th by Business Week (http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/) and WSJ (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB112688234637942950.html?mod=2_1181_1)? Go and look in the local library about which are the leading MBA ranking book checked out by people. Do you even know where the local library is at?

You are clueless. And now apparently you cannot even read. The rankings are clearly given in link you posted by different reputed journals:

4 3 9 12 6 8 10 7

That reads as 8 - 12 to you?

Where exactly?

Go read my previous posts. Ooops I am presuming too much... since I forgot you cannot even read.

Why isn't it reasonable? It's a system where there is always something to achieve. This system will be maxed out in 2 months with little effort, much like WoW's crafting system.

If you want to get something, you should have to actually spend some time and effort to get it, not just get it given out to you on a plate.

You are the one who wants free resources and gear handed to you on a plate via your guildmates. The rest of us are ready to earn it through RvR.

Maxed out in what? Crafting or RvR? Which is the main focus of the game?? Dude if you love crafting over RvR so much why dont you go and stick your head in this (http://www.atitd.com/news/26apr06.shtml)? It will be hilarious if there are posts in those forums by Esraymuk arguing about how RvR is being trivialized.

[Essar]

In fairness, it is a school of management.










(kidding).

[Zeikfried]

This post is full of politics

:D

- Z

[gluon123]

God this thread has gotten out-of-hand. Its like banging your head against a wall.

Esraymuk, you are in beta. If you hate the system so much. Convince the developers that it sucks and it will be better your way. If it does become better by utilizing your way then I will be happy to play it.

I have had enough hating for the day. Over-and-out

[Kintanu]

You underestimate community efforts to spread information, and of course, the old standby of data-mining.


To think that combinations won't be available a few months post release is foolish and naive.

I think you forget how long it would take to sack a city. How often you could sack a city. Now multiply that with how many combinations you can add to your growing process for the seeds you would get in that end-game area. Not to mention the high end RvR ingredients. If you think its going to be all discovered within the first 6 months of play, then i think you are the one that is naive.

*Edit* I almost forgot that even if your the first realm to sack a city, I doubt you would have the proper gear to defeat the first few PQ bosses to get that gear and/or the best ingredients for Apothecary/Talisman.

[Esraymuk]

You are clueless. And now apparently you cannot even read. The rankings are clearly given in link you posted by different reputed journals:

4 3 9 12 6 8 10 7

That reads as 8 - 12 to you?

That reads as 3-4 to you? :rolleyes: We appear to be taking the same liberties here.

http://rankings.ft.com/global-mba-rankings

24th in the world, and 6-9th in the USA (lets discount the "outer boundries" of 3-4 and 8-12 to make it fair). That is neither exclusivity, nor "world renowned". In fact, it's pretty damn average. I'm sorry, but I'm not the one being snobbish when you insist on throwing around your non-existant academic weight to back up your points.

God this thread has gotten out-of-hand. Its like banging your head against a wall.

Well, at least we can agree on something.

If you think its going to be all discovered within the first 6 months of play, then i think you are the one that is naive.

I'd be surprised if the majority wern't discovered in open beta, and then the rest in 1-2 months. You underestimate the effort put into these things by certain people.

Go read my previous posts.

You've contionusly referred to my metaphors as stupid and irrelevant, but never explained why. EXPLAIN please.

You are the one who wants free resources and gear handed to you on a plate via your guildmates. The rest of us are ready to earn it through RvR.

Maxed out in what? Crafting or RvR? Which is the main focus of the game?? Dude if you love crafting over RvR so much why dont you go and stick your head in this? It will be hilarious if there are posts in those forums by Esraymuk arguing about how RvR is being trivialized.

*sigh*

I have no interest in free handouts. I've said this over and over, and despite this you keep using that as a point.

Maxed out in Crafting in 2 months. The main focus of the gmae is RvR but a major focus should also be crafting, which will be maxed out in about 2 months.

[Kintanu]

I'd be surprised if the majority wern't discovered in open beta, and then the rest in 1-2 months. You underestimate the effort put into these things by certain people.
No matter how much effort you put into a timed event, you cannot make it go faster. Try running as fast as you can and make the day shorter. You cannot make your RvR rank go any faster then you can kill, you cannot make the PQs go any faster then they are made to. You still forget that it will take time to get enough points to take a city, and you forget the other side will fight back.
Lets say you won the seed, it took you 3 weeks to get it. What will you use to grow it? As far as we know, the high level seeds may take much longer to grow then the lower tier ones. Then you must decide what potion or talisman to make. If you want to write it all down, thats fine, but to think it will only take about 2 months to do it is illogical and ignorant. Its simple math. No matter how much effort you put in your work day, you cannot make the day go by any faster.

[gluon123]

That reads as 3-4 to you? :rolleyes: We appear to be taking the same liberties here.

I am the one who posted those. You quoted them as 8 - 12 from the wikipedia article. I clearly said the 3 - 4 corresponds to Business Week and Wall Street Journal. You want me to quote myself from two posts ago?

http://rankings.ft.com/global-mba-rankings

24th in the world, and 6-9th in the USA (lets discount the "outer boundries" of 3-4 and 8-12 to make it fair). That is neither exclusivity, nor "world renowned". In fact, it's pretty damn average. I'm sorry, but I'm not the one being snobbish when you insist on throwing around your non-existant academic weight to back up your points.

I love how you chose from the lower set of FT rankings rather than the oft quoted Business Week and WSJ rankings. If you ever figure out your way to the library then look up which books are in more demand... ofcourse it might be a little difficult given you fail at reading from your own posted URLs.

Also, buddy boy you cannot be snobbish about it when you DO NOT EVEN have a frigging admission to any institution. You did happen to look at the Weighted Salary column as compared to other "higher" ranked schools didnt you? I mean I am so heartbroken that my school ranked 3 and 4 by BW and WSJ is not exclusive enough for someone with no admission anywhere.

*sigh*

I have no interest in free handouts. I've said this over and over, and despite this you keep using that as a point.

Your method leads to freeloading. Its a flaw in what you advocate. Hence I cannot discount your love for it.

Maxed out in Crafting in 2 months. The main focus of the gmae is RvR but a major focus should also be crafting, which will be maxed out in about 2 months.

The major focus bit is your personal crusade.... not the developers. As I said earlier you are in beta. You have the say in what should go into the game and welcome to try changing their minds about it.

[Nerissa]

My dear effing god Gluon. LET IT GO. You've worked yourself up into a frenzy over something the other poster doesn't even support.

[Nerissa]

Wii's appeal primarily to 8 year olds; go figure.

.

Metriod Prime 3: Corruption.



I would kill for more FPS games to be made for the console, because it is a PERFECT vehicle for the genre.



The system could have great games, if developers would take the plunge. The control system is unique and begs to be taken advantage of.



I find it amusing how all the hardcore gamers migrated to the PS3/360, eternally chasing the carrot that is UBARLEET GRAPHIXXXX. We're already entering an age of diminishing returns on graphical power, but god knows you'll never get half the hardcore technophiles to admit it.

[Sarevok]

At least the truth has finaly come out. He just wants EVE or SWG, a game where you had the option to *just* craft and played a huge, huge part of the game. The devs have said that RVR is going to be the main thing in this game.

He wants something that goes against the main point of the game, and anything short of that isn't good enough. And he will sit here and troll as much as he can, calling anyone and anything simplistic, moronic, or insignificant.

Take this whole personal attack to Glue, he said that he was a moron for not getting his over exagerated and off tilt comparisons. Glue said that he was in a good school, and doubted that he was a moron. He then has attacked the school, saying that if it isn't the top 3 in the world then it's mediocre.

That is the best comparison I could draw actually. If it isn't the best, it isn't worth anything. If you disagree you're a moron. Anything that I don't like is wrong.

He's a troll. And I'm done here.

[gluon123]

My dear effing god Gluon. LET IT GO. You've worked yourself up into a frenzy over something the other poster doesn't even support.

Nerissa you have to understand that he started the insults. The developers are "lazy", anyone who does not understand his irrelevant "metaphors" is an idiot with no cognitive abilities, anyone who does not share his "grand" vision of crafting is a moron. He can dish it just fine but apparently cannot accept it from others. I am not sure why I am supposed to be like Gandhi and take it all.

That is the best comparison I could draw actually. If it isn't the best, it isn't worth anything. If you disagree you're a moron. Anything that I don't like is wrong.

He's a troll. And I'm done here.

Second that thought. The funny thing is he hasnt even given any real life data to prove that he is *best* at everything he does. But the developers are definitely "lazy" and "put no thought into the crafting system" since he says so.

[Stiltzkin]

. I am not sure why I am supposed to be like Gandhi and take it all.
Because Gandhi's tactics are the best way of solving a conflict while integrating all related parties into a community. Gandhi was awesome.

[gluon123]

Because Gandhi's tactics are the best way of solving a conflict while integrating all related parties into a community. Gandhi was awesome.

That he was. But if Gandhi himself was to go on hunger strike for this crafting system then Esraymuk would let him wither away to nothing.

[Kintanu]

/emote
*Kintanu shakes hands with everyone*
/leave

[Fester Addams]

It has been said that the "best" potions will fast be discovered and then those few will be the only ones created...

Ok lets look at that.

Not taking into account extremely rare prime ingredients such as ones from high level public quest boss rewards or the like lets look at mundane "farmable" best potions.

Lets look at a healing potion.

So what is the best healing potion?

Naturally its a potion that heals ALOT but do you want one that dishes out all of it instantly or one that heals over a long time?

Now we have to look at who the potion is for.

A glass cannon will want a fast acting, short cooldown and medium healing potion, no point in using a potion that heals 10.000hp's if the char only has 3.000hp.

Fast acting as while he will, as a rule try to keep from being hit but when hit he takes alot of damage.

So the glass cannon wants to tradeoff maximising the actual HP healed for fast healing and short cooldown.

Now lets look at a tank. A tank will be taking a small amount of damage constantly over a long time, he will want a potion that matches this as well as possible, why wait untill your HP drops low leaving you vulnerable to a high instant damage burst, better to have a potion that gives a vast amount of HP dished out slowly over a long time, true he will want to have panic potions too but the prefered healing potion would be the slow and steady.

As the potion has such a long duration cooldown is not really an issue and as there is no need to heal fast he can put all his bonus ingredients into raising the amount of HP healed, the tank may only have a HP max of 10.000hp but there is no reason his potion could not heal 20k or evek 30k as he will constantly be taking damage alowing him to benefit from the full amount of HP.

And then there are the inbetweens, a DPS melee char will want a mid ranged potion that heals a good amount of HP over a duration, the amount per second must be alot higher than the tank's favored amount but far from as fast as the glass cannons potion.

so in short you may have one popular potion that heals 3.000 HP in 5 sec, one that heals 7.000HP in 20 sec and a third that heals 30.000HP in 5 min.
Each suiting a specific game style.


The fact that you do not have to go out and find the recipes for the three is to me a great bonus.

In addition I do not at all like spoiler sites such as throtbot and whatever else they are called, yes to some extent I use them still and I will in all probability look upp "recipes" for WAR once I play but I will do much experimenting myself just for the fun of it :)

[Esraymuk]

Nerissa you have to understand that he started the insults. The developers are "lazy", anyone who does not understand his irrelevant "metaphors" is an idiot with no cognitive abilities

I never insulted the developers; I said that their system was rubbish. You know, offering criticism on a system pre-release instead of going on about how you love every single aspect of it? Which do you think will help improve this game more? I do believe you started the personal insults with sarcastic remarks about how I was stupid, or some such.

Anyone who does not understand my metaphors have no cognitive abilities. That is true. However, whether you think them stupid or irrelevant is your perogative, and does not reflect on your cognitive capabilities. Unfortunately, you do not UNDERSTAND them in the frist place, from your posts. You keep trying to interpret them literally or simply incorrectly.

Take this whole personal attack to Glue, he said that he was a moron for not getting his over exagerated and off tilt comparisons. Glue said that he was in a good school, and doubted that he was a moron. He then has attacked the school, saying that if it isn't the top 3 in the world then it's mediocre.

I am attacking the fact that instead of coming up with an argument, all Gloun does is continously STATE my arguments are rubbish without actually backing his statements up. He then misinterprets my post, and then goes off on a tangent about freebies. This is subsequently "backed up" by irrelevant references to mediocre MBA schools that he's supposedly attended.

Second that thought. The funny thing is he hasnt even given any real life data to prove that he is *best* at everything he does. But the developers are definitely "lazy" and "put no thought into the crafting system" since he says so.

Observe another example of an irrelevant post whose arguments neither flow nor relate. How the hell does me providing "real life data" correlate with my arguments that very little thought has been put into the crafting system?

1) I have not stated I am the "best" at everything I do. I do not presume that much.
2) I offer actual arguments instead of simple statements.
3) I'd say very little thought was put into the crafting system, and I have backed that up with arguments - unlike you might I add, whose posts are the definition of "its right because I say so".


I put forward an argument; you respond with irrelevant crap about freebies.

I put forward another and deny that I'm interested in freebies, you put forward yet more crap about MBA schools.

I call BS on your irrelevant responses, and I'm now a troll.

This is patently ridiculous.

[vanza001]

I don't think you're a troll... you're just very very hard headed and damn set on thinking this system sucks because it is not what you expected. You wanted more. More revolutionary, more interesting. They went with less. Less is more in their opinion and thats all there really is to the argument. Both sides are technically correct. This is technically not a full on hardcore crafting system. Pirates of the Burning Sea or EvE or hell even UO had this kinda thing. WAR was never going for that and if you expected that then you only have yourself to blame for your disappointment. This is a crafting system that fits into the economy WAR has set up for itself. RvR and PvE equipment drops and crafting being for perishables only. I think it is a great idea and works very well together. This crafting, while not as deep and realistic as other games, fits perfectly into the world they are creating and the way they want you to play the game.

[Esraymuk]

I don't think you're a troll... you're just very very hard headed and damn set on thinking this system sucks because it is not what you expected. You wanted more. More revolutionary, more interesting. They went with less. Less is more in their opinion and thats all there really is to the argument. Both sides are technically correct. This is technically not a full on hardcore crafting system. Pirates of the Burning Sea or EvE or hell even UO had this kinda thing. WAR was never going for that and if you expected that then you only have yourself to blame for your disappointment. This is a crafting system that fits into the economy WAR has set up for itself. RvR and PvE equipment drops and crafting being for perishables only. I think it is a great idea and works very well together. This crafting, while not as deep and realistic as other games, fits perfectly into the world they are creating and the way they want you to play the game.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree and just leave it at that then. It was good fun having this discussion, those who contributed constructive.

[Nerissa]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree and just leave it at that then. It was good fun having this discussion, those who contributed constructive.

Really, I'm just slightly amazed the thread managed to stay open, or at the very least, not recieve a 'visit' from the mods.

[Esraymuk]

I'm not. It stayed civil, though we may well have tread the line a bit thinly.