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Heresy488
06-01-2008, 02:36 AM
First, start with the gathering professions.
The game starts with every character being a level 1 noob who is threatened by angry dogs, and this is true in every MMO you go. But in WAR, the character needs to use every wit about them to simply survive. Any desire to craft magical items or brew a potion are completely secondary to that simple goal of survival. This puts every player in the frame of mind of a hunter. The world is dangerous. There are things out there that are out to get them, it's called RvR. Even those players who's characters are part of a regular army, like Humans or High Elves or Dark Elves or Chaos, every soldier knows the value of proper scavenging.


Every character should begin the game knowing how to scavenge and this means looting. This means cutting pieces off of animals, using furs for warmth, bits for decorations, and meats for sustenance. It means getting wounded and learning which herbs tend to wounds and which are poison, race specific of course. It means taking weapons and armor off the dead to enhance your own offense and defense. It means learning how to enhance your own weapons and armor. It also means spinning salvaged cloth into thread to make clothing, flags, rope, nets, bows, etc. Salvaged leather, metal, lumber, and more can be used to make other materials, like armor, weapons, etc. But the characters start with looting.


See, if we start the game with the premise that even basic survival is a challenge, the characters in the game can take much more proactive movements towards survival, and this means the players can go out of their way to care about their character, to want to protect him, and most importantly, to want to kill their characters enemies for ever daring to threaten their guy's faction. The more the player is challenged to feel, the more the player will desire to see their character win.


Second, staving off the wolves.
Those are the angry dogs I was talking about. Now, as I introduced in the first section, crafting professions are what the characters do with all that they've looted. Before I go further, I must make two demands, the first that characters must begin the game with maxed possible inventory. This is a must. Second, every gathering/crafting profession must be accessible to the character, none of this “1 gathering and 1 crafting” profession nonsense. These two must happen.


Now, once your character is able to stand on his own two feet, then he can have the luxury of putting some thought into the crafting professions. Apothecary and Talisman Making are two ideas proposed. Apothecary is natural; it is rich in lore and societies demand pharmacists. Apothecaries are players who have taken their given, if small, knowledge of plants (which ones give a boon to their race and which ones are poison to their race) to a greater degree and learned to experiment with chemical cocktails. The creation concept of a primary ingredient and three bonus flavors is intriguing.


I recommend that Apothecary creations are centered more on character utility instead of flat numeric effects. For example, a potion should heal based off a percentage and not a number value so that this potion is just as useful to a low level character as it is a max level character. Mark Jacobs says that grinding is a problem and I agree with him. I just don't want to see a max level character who initially skipped the professions component of the game the first time through, decided to go back, and found himself grinding through the skill ranks because none of the entry-level items had any utility for him.


Talisman Making seems to be what I was talking about in terms of a character learning how to enhance their own weapons and armor, except TM seems to focus on magical items exclusively. I recommend that magic take a smaller role in items in the game. A well-constructed, thick ax of iron doesn't need any fancy fireworks to cleave an Orc's skull any better. Dwarven elders were killing Orcs just fine before they discovered magic and even after it's discovery most Dwarves find they're Dwarfy enough to not need it, so really, magic must not be that necessary to the goal of Orc-slaying. The concept of TM, salvaging special or rare components from loot and using those components to enhance the character's gear, is a fine idea. What I'm saying is that the system need not concern exclusively magical items. It might also help stave off meta-gamers if some extremely viable gear was not magical.


If Mythic is intent on not having a direct creation profession for weapons and armor, I understand. I am however disappointed at the many numerous options that would be available to characters, cut short, because of an anxiety towards improperly implementing the system. Nevertheless, a general-item creation system must be added. Items such as what I was discussing before: clothing, flags, rope, nets, food, trophies, trinkets, etc. There needs to be a system for players to create these items and receive benefits from them (even if it just means a better-looking cape than the other Chaos Chosen next to me).


Lastly, direct points to the podcast.
Cultivating is a terrible idea and must go. Again, I understand why Mythic would create a system where the responsibility of reagent-farming is placed on cooldowns and timers, completely dependent on the playing being online and playing the game for hours without end, but Cultivating, even if its a step towards innovation, is a step in the wrong direction.. The first problem is I do not see my Chaos Chosen tending a garden. I don't see it, I don't want to see it. The idea is just stupidly . If all the player needs is a system to acquire materials for the Apothecary profession, then use the conventional system and either learn to tolerate farmers or make the more desirable Apothecary craftable item reagents not able to be traded.


Go back to what I said about the different plants affecting every race differently. There will be five races in the game: Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, and Goblins. Because there will not be one weed or fungi equally desirable to all five of them at the same time under my system, at the very least (assuming racial population balance) farmers will be split five ways as to what to farm. This would be an innovative and practical solution to a common problem (farmers) without drastically modifying a non-broken gathering system.

Archerion
06-01-2008, 02:55 AM
Every character should begin the game knowing how to scavenge and this means looting. This means cutting pieces off of animals, using furs for warmth, bits for decorations, and meats for sustenance. It means getting wounded and learning which herbs tend to wounds and which are poison, race specific of course. It means taking weapons and armor off the dead to enhance your own offense and defense. It means learning how to enhance your own weapons and armor. It also means spinning salvaged cloth into thread to make clothing, flags, rope, nets, bows, etc. Salvaged leather, metal, lumber, and more can be used to make other materials, like armor, weapons, etc. But the characters start with looting.

I think it could work with you being able to reach level...say 3 in it, but to go past that you have to actually learn the skill.


Those are the angry dogs I was talking about. Now, as I introduced in the first section, crafting professions are what the characters do with all that they've looted. Before I go further, I must make two demands, the first that characters must begin the game with maxed possible inventory. This is a must. Second, every gathering/crafting profession must be accessible to the character, none of this “1 gathering and 1 crafting” profession nonsense. These two must happen.

Theres no "must" there, and begin with maxxed inventory? what? I don't see what you mean...


I recommend that Apothecary creations are centered more on character utility instead of flat numeric effects. For example, a potion should heal based off a percentage and not a number value so that this potion is just as useful to a low level character as it is a max level character. Mark Jacobs says that grinding is a problem and I agree with him. I just don't want to see a max level character who initially skipped the professions component of the game the first time through, decided to go back, and found himself grinding through the skill ranks because none of the entry-level items had any utility for him.

I see how you don't like grinding, but if you make potions which heal %, don't you think that would get...imbalanced? As the potions would be cheaper and easier to make, but would have the same effect on everyone would just be stupid. like 1 potion which requires level 1 and heals 25% and the cost is 3(instead of ingredients i added a value), but a high level potion which heals 50% could cost 9, so it would be easier to just go kill some low level monsters and make 2 25% potions, it would ruin it.


Talisman Making seems to be what I was talking about in terms of a character learning how to enhance their own weapons and armor, except TM seems to focus on magical items exclusively. I recommend that magic take a smaller role in items in the game. A well-constructed, thick ax of iron doesn't need any fancy fireworks to cleave an Orc's skull any better. Dwarven elders were killing Orcs just fine before they discovered magic and even after it's discovery most Dwarves find they're Dwarfy enough to not need it, so really, magic must not be that necessary to the goal of Orc-slaying. The concept of TM, salvaging special or rare components from loot and using those components to enhance the character's gear, is a fine idea. What I'm saying is that the system need not concern exclusively magical items. It might also help stave off meta-gamers if some extremely viable gear was not magical.
Uhm...didn't understand :confused:.


If Mythic is intent on not having a direct creation profession for weapons and armor, I understand. I am however disappointed at the many numerous options that would be available to characters, cut short, because of an anxiety towards improperly implementing the system. Nevertheless, a general-item creation system must be added. Items such as what I was discussing before: clothing, flags, rope, nets, food, trophies, trinkets, etc. There needs to be a system for players to create these items and receive benefits from them (even if it just means a better-looking cape than the other Chaos Chosen next to me).

I wouldn't mind that, but its just that this game is about war, fighting, PvP.
Making trophies i wouldn't mind, flags i don't see the point, except for using them to show your guild.
Clothing is good for the RPers out there.
The other stuff i don't know.



Cultivating is a terrible idea and must go. Again, I understand why Mythic would create a system where the responsibility of reagent-farming is placed on cooldowns and timers, completely dependent on the playing being online and playing the game for hours without end, but Cultivating, even if its a step towards innovation, is a step in the wrong direction.. The first problem is I do not see my Chaos Chosen tending a garden. I don't see it, I don't want to see it. The idea is just stupidly . If all the player needs is a system to acquire materials for the Apothecary profession, then use the conventional system and either learn to tolerate farmers or make the more desirable Apothecary craftable item reagents not able to be traded.

If its that important for you to stay in-character, choose butchering and go buy the reagents instead.
I have played a game with growing plants before and it worked well, they last for what, 30 hours? Plant them, run out do a quest, do some PvP then harvest. Or go AFK, go read a book, eat food, or whatever you mortals do.

stiltskin
06-01-2008, 03:38 AM
I wondered about the bag space bit , since no-one is making bags in the game , I do hope they give us a decent bag space to start with .
Look at other games , you level your char , and decide to make an alt . What's the first thing you do ? Send your alt a load of bags because your initial experience tells you lack of bag space is the biggest drag.

Archerion
06-01-2008, 03:40 AM
I think i read somewhere in this forum that we start with like...40 bag slots, and you can add bags to our mount or something like that.

stiltskin
06-01-2008, 05:12 AM
I think i read somewhere in this forum that we start with like...40 bag slots, and you can add bags to our mount or something like that.

Sounds good to me :D

Molnu
06-01-2008, 07:26 AM
Every character should begin the game knowing how to scavenge and this means looting. This means cutting pieces off of animals, using furs for warmth, bits for decorations, and meats for sustenance. It means getting wounded and learning which herbs tend to wounds and which are poison, race specific of course. It means taking weapons and armor off the dead to enhance your own offense and defense. It means learning how to enhance your own weapons and armor. It also means spinning salvaged cloth into thread to make clothing, flags, rope, nets, bows, etc. Salvaged leather, metal, lumber, and more can be used to make other materials, like armor, weapons, etc. But the characters start with looting.

Sounds like you want to design your own game. There's tweaking a system and there's completely scrapping it. You can't please every player in the game. If you don't like the crafting, don't do it. Different games do crafting differently and it's a design choice at it's core. The game isn't going to change for you.

Second, every gathering/crafting profession must be accessible to the character, none of this “1 gathering and 1 crafting” profession nonsense.

On second thought, don't ever become a game designer. Do you know what this would do to the economy at all? It would force you to be a farm bot, use like 20 gathering skills after every mob, and totally destroy any economy the game would ever have. The whole purpose of only having 1 skill is the MMO in MMORPG - you have to work and trade and barter with other players. None of this hero nonsense.

I recommend that Apothecary creations are centered more on character utility instead of flat numeric effects. For example, a potion should heal based off a percentage and not a number value so that this potion is just as useful to a low level character as it is a max level character.

That's stupid. So either low-level players can make the best potions in the game, or only high level players can, and would result in severe twinking. Think enchanting on WoW, +50 stamina to boots, oh let's put it on a level 1 item! -_-

Not going to happen.

I just don't want to see a max level character who initially skipped the professions component of the game the first time through, decided to go back, and found himself grinding through the skill ranks because none of the entry-level items had any utility for him.

Did you even watch the podcast? The crafting is material based. If you have the materials, you can make the potion. You don't have to grind any low-level items that are useless, that's exactly what he's avoiding! And exactly what he talked about!

I recommend that magic take a smaller role in items in the game. A well-constructed, thick ax of iron doesn't need any fancy fireworks to cleave an Orc's skull any better. Dwarven elders were killing Orcs just fine before they discovered magic and even after it's discovery most Dwarves find they're Dwarfy enough to not need it, so really, magic must not be that necessary to the goal of Orc-slaying.

Magical items are items with stats and bonuses. Green/blue/purple items. If you haven't played WoW or LOTRO or basically any other recent game, the only other thing I can think of is the Diablo series. Everyone has played those. Think rares, uniques, or magic items in that game. You need a magical property to make a talisman which is ALL ABOUT magical properties. I mean honestly, you're not going to take a hunk of metal, and strap it to your armor and get a bonus. The idea is that you make these necklaces or charms on your armor that give magical effects. How are you supposed to make that from an item with no magical effects?

Cultivating is a terrible idea and must go. Again, I understand why Mythic would create a system where the responsibility of reagent-farming is placed on cooldowns and timers, completely dependent on the playing being online and playing the game for hours without end, but Cultivating, even if its a step towards innovation, is a step in the wrong direction.. The first problem is I do not see my Chaos Chosen tending a garden. I don't see it, I don't want to see it. The idea is just stupidly .

You just lost all merit your post once had. Did you just throw your brain away for this paragraph? "I don't like football, so we have to destroy every football stadium and disband every football team in the world". Honestly. Get over your opinions and just don't do it. I happen to think cultivating is a great idea, and so do many others.

Archerion
06-01-2008, 07:32 AM
Uhm...you got SERVED!

Arganot
08-10-2008, 05:59 PM
*The Blorc listening to your rant cleaves you in half and picks some gold that fell out of your pockets "cuz itz shinze," but leaves your small gem encrusted silver daggers "cuz punzie weaponz is not fa orcz."*

You speak of a soldier that is versed in every manner of self-reliance know to man. How did he learn it. As you said you start as a lvl 1 scrub noob that just popped forth from the ground in case of the orc. No one has showed you that the dagger our orc friend left has money value past its use as a weapon. In a state of unrelenting war I'm sure the education of the orc in the ways of 'making rope' is high on the priority list be cause he will need it somewhere in the 4 mins of life the orc will have before he steps on a stuntie's landmine. You are in fact talking about a 'Univeral Soldier complex.' The perfect soldier, not the green guy that can't string a sentence without lossing his train of thought and needing to smash somthing.

You need to get your papers together and go to a non-MMORPG where you can be completely self-reliant and solo as you wish to without other ppl around to bother you during a net making sitdown.

This seem harsh? So is wipe your behind with Mythic's carefully thought out plan and and tossing it in lue of your own idea.

Arrandor
08-11-2008, 05:40 AM
I agree with the stiltskin if there are no crafting skills around making bags, which is fine with me, then we should get bags that are big enough for most needs. 40 slots may or may not be big enough depending on how many items we will typically pick up, especially if we will need to store quest/resource items, in which case 40 may not be enough.

I quite like the AoC method for storing quest/resource items, i.e. these items are automatically placed into separate quest/resource only bags.

Vevielle
08-11-2008, 10:53 AM
I appreciate the in-depth look at the crafting system but I can't say that I really agree with your perspective primarily on your first point; "starting off with looting"

There is a difference between looting and scavenging. Entirely different skills. Yes, every character does (and should) start off with the ability to loot items that creatures will drop at death. I disagree where they should also have the ability to scavenge or to butcher because these are skills that you would only acquire after time in the wilderness (thus only being available to characters who train in these professions)

The other concept I disagree strongly with is this idea of every character having every profession. There would be no reason to trade in an entirely self-sufficient world.

While I don't agree, I did enjoy the thought-out post and your perspective on crafting systems.

Therion
08-14-2008, 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heresy488 http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/images/WHA/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=870026#post870026)
I recommend that Apothecary creations are centered more on character utility instead of flat numeric effects. For example, a potion should heal based off a percentage and not a number value so that this potion is just as useful to a low level character as it is a max level character.

That's stupid. So either low-level players can make the best potions in the game, or only high level players can, and would result in severe twinking. Think enchanting on WoW, +50 stamina to boots, oh let's put it on a level 1 item! -_-


Not it isn't. And no, that's not true at all. Think, man. Think. It's a percentage-based system. You wouldn't be able to twink as in WoW exactly because it's a percentage-based system.

Certainly, if everyone of any level could use any potion, advanced potions (with different uses, they'd have to have different uses as low level recipes remain useful when they scale with character levels) could be used by low level characters.. but they'd be down-scaled to the characters' levels. And you know, there could always be level-requirements on potions if that's too overpowered.

And not having healing potion rank one to twelve but only one healing potion would make it the best, yes.. but only because theres only one recipe of each type needed. That doesn't mean you could have a heal over time potion, or a poison removing balm, etc., etc.

Raith
08-15-2008, 09:36 AM
I think the crafting system is looking pretty good so far. Sure, it's probably no perfect, but what system is? I'm just happy that they are designing it to get rid of the grind.

We'll really just have to wait till we can actually get to use it though before I pass final judgement.

Anyways, saying that cultivating is like "tending a garden" is pretty silly. It's a pot that grows a resource. Just because you make it sound silly and girly doesn't mean that's how it will look. Bad reason to throw cultivating under the bus.

sataricon
08-15-2008, 03:06 PM
Seriously i can't see any reason for any one here to go tell a player to go play something else...He made some suggestions which may be right or wrong but still he put forth a lot of effort into this so at least try to respect this.

Regarding the subject i agree with some of the OP's points like scavenge & how every one should learn it as a first craft skill.

But i disagree with him about giving a class all the craft skills..i understand it but i disagree.
With this the game will turn into a solo grind play .
Even in the top grind games with top crafting systems and i mean Lineage 2 this can't be done because with this you are killing the in game's economy which i hate to see it becouse it will turn this game to a dark dark thing that will be unplayable.

sgtcasey
08-16-2008, 10:27 AM
Something to keep in mind is that I doubt the crafting system and setup present on release day will be exactly the same a year from then. Things will be added and tweaked.

I just hope for variety and something better than the horrible "crafting" WoW has. Something like SWG pre-NGE had would be perfect. :)

jc2008
08-20-2008, 04:34 PM
. The first problem is I do not see my Chaos Chosen tending a garden. I don't see it, I don't want to see it. The idea is just stupidly ..


Well you can only have one gathering profession, so take something more manly for your Chosen, like butchering :P

Leave the flower growing to those male dark elfs ;)