An archmage runs into a shaman

[Deshiva]

neverending battle commences? I mean they both have nukes and heals, both improve their spells the same way. I can see a fight like this lasting a very long time without outside influences. Does the archmage have anything that tips the scales? or the shaman? Would be interesting to hear some speculation from my fellow kin.

[pzykozis]

neverending battle commences? I mean they both have nukes and heals, both improve their spells the same way. I can see a fight like this lasting a very long time without outside influences. Does the archmage have anything that tips the scales? or the shaman? Would be interesting to hear some speculation from my fellow kin.

Player skill...? level difference... gear difference. I dunno.. there's lots of variables outside of the career vs career.

[Balatronan]

Same way shadow priests duel on WoW, rock, paper, scissor.

Seriously though, its who messes up first in th duel or even who's tactics are better.

[Kaeldor]

Player skill...? level difference... gear difference. I dunno.. there's lots of variables outside of the career vs career.

What he said, also it oculd be that a certain specc is better than others against casters etc. In WAR morale plays a big role, so if one is comming "pumped" just out of a big battle, the other one might just get blown oto pieces.

[Keiser]

It'll come down to who uses their morale abilities more intelligently. Morale abilities are like aces up your sleeve with strategic uses. Use the wrong one or use one at the wrong time and when your opponent uses theirs you're dust.

[serratemplar]

Keep in mind that the "mechanic" between Shaman and Archmage is the same, insofar as "cast heals, get dmg high magic; cast dmg spells, get heals high magic". That doesn't mean that our spell sets will be mirrors of one another. In fact, they may be quite different in many respects.

[Baconbitz]

I think it would come down to who has a better mastery over balancing their waaagh/high magic. 4 damage then a heavy hitting heal. rotate.

[Aysop]

Supposing that the players are equally matched, whoever makes the most catastrophic mistakes will lose.

[Deshiva]

Aight thanks for the replies, prolly should ask this again once the open beta is out to hear more interesting answers

[Nightz]

Whichever one has more silences will probably win. IMO

[Howley]

as above... the use of silence and the spell that doesnt allow u to be set back for 5-10s with 60s CD (pretty much baseline MoC) and ofc the usage of the insta cast negate spell... if either one doesnt have it on their qbar then they might pay for it!

[serratemplar]

In general when fighting another caster, this is what I do (when playing a healer)

Knowing your opponent (and how many interrupts he/she has) as a class is vital. I use my instant cast spells almost exclusively (so I can't be interrupted) until they have blown their interrupt(s). I might try to bait them into wasting it, which I do by starting a lengthy cast then stopping it almost immediately after (sometimes if their connection is wanting, they will see you start casting but not see you stop casting in time to ...well, you bait them and they blow an interrupt on nothing). If their interrupt needs to hit a mid-cast ability to be effective, nice. If it can still silence you, that's annoying, but better to get them to blow that early when I'm covered in HoTs and can run around until it wears off.

Also, in WoW I was not opposed to mind-controlling the target and hopping them off of tall objects, or of using fear to kite them around. Use crowd-control abilities (even AoE ones), annoying debuffs, and blow potions early to start their cooldowns. You never know how long the duel will go, and whether they will get back-up anytime soon.

Use the terrain to your advantage as well: Line of Sight in particular is a very effective tactic, as it both shields you from hits and tends to aggrevate an opponent (the angrier they are, the less effective they can play). On that note, keep your cool. Best way to do that is not allow yourself to get worked up, and also to engage in PVP as often as possible so you get used to it.

[seirios]

from the little i know about WAR-lore, archmages are also staff masters. and in fact, they are much better casters than all others, but it is an mmo and balance > all.

[Dostum]

If the balance is right then it will be a very fun epic fight. One of the kind of fights I will be looking forward to having the most.

[bagwi]

It's RvR Realm vs. Realm which means there will be large scale confrontations very very few 1v1 fights.

[justsomeguy]

A high elf archmage losing to a goblin shaman? Was he asleep? I mean, balance is one thing, but that just sounds absurd.

[Salka Valka]

A high elf archmage losing to a goblin shaman? Was he asleep? I mean, balance is one thing, but that just sounds absurd.

I agree. an archmage loosing to a goblin would totally destroy my sense of immersion.

[GWARAndy]

A high elf archmage losing to a goblin shaman? Was he asleep? I mean, balance is one thing, but that just sounds absurd.


Not really, considering that that Goblin shaman blew a giant hole in a mountain. Goblin shaman are freaky strong and feared :p

[Faltina]

Until we get a for-sure listing of what each class can really do, it's all conjecture at this point.

My instinct however is leaning towards the Archmage IF he/she is decent at kiting and is specced to fight that way.

[Azerael Daemon]

For me it's about specs.

Utility/Annoyance spec > Damage spec < Healing spec > Utility spec

If you understand what i am trying to convey.

[Ares]

Dont forget the crit/luck factor

[Faltina]

What's interesting is in some of the videos I've seen of the Archmage I've seen them parry in Melee...

I'm 100% sure their magic is their "main" method of combat, but that makes me wonder what exactly they can do in melee (if anything besides parrying).

[Enelysios]

What's interesting is in some of the videos I've seen of the Archmage I've seen them parry in Melee...

I'm 100% sure their magic is their "main" method of combat, but that makes me wonder what exactly they can do in melee (if anything besides parrying).

My understanding is that everyone can parry, its just that those with better melee stats parry better. i am sure we can attack in melee, but i would bet its probably better to stay away. They are giving us CC for a reason.

[Faltina]

My understanding is that everyone can parry, its just that those with better melee stats parry better. i am sure we can attack in melee, but i would bet its probably better to stay away. They are giving us CC for a reason.

Just how much CC... and what the reset-timers are FOR that CC... of course is the question. :)

[Kallah]

For me it's about specs.

Utility/Annoyance spec > Damage spec < Healing spec > Utility spec

If you understand what i am trying to convey.


Ehh so Healing spec is unbeatable and dmg spec cant win anyone?

[Tantaeluth]

The entire world will be torn asunder. Tidal waves and volcanic eruptions would occur worldwide and cities on the other side of the world will be destroyed in catastrophic earthquakes.

In all seriousness though, if they're equally geared and skilled, whoever has better anti-caster tactics in place or certain morale abilities will likely emerge the victor.

[Exacerberus]

An archmage runs into a shaman
neverending battle commences? I mean they both have nukes and heals, both improve their spells the same way. I can see a fight like this lasting a very long time without outside influences. Does the archmage have anything that tips the scales? or the shaman? Would be interesting to hear some speculation from my fellow kin.No offense but... useless question.
The one which CCs first or better wins.
Yet, just a slight advantage for the Shammy, because of this:
Get'n Smarter (http://warhammerinfo.com/db/index.php?req=s&val=Get%27n%20Smarter) - "Enhanced by Path of Da Green": Steals a very large amount of Intelligence from your target for 10 seconds. 15 AP 100 ft Instant Cast 10s CD

[FenixStryk]

Yet, just a slight advantage for the Shammy, because of this:
Get'n Smarter (http://warhammerinfo.com/db/index.php?req=s&val=Get%27n%20Smarter) - "Enhanced by Path of Da Green": Steals a very large amount of Intelligence from your target for 10 seconds. 15 AP 100 ft Instant Cast 10s CDWouldn't the Archmage be able to Cleansing Light the debuff off himself?

Anyway, it's 50/50. it'd be like asking if a Swordmaster fought a Black orc, who would win. They're almost exactly the same class.

[DeaExMachina]

I'd put my money on the Archmage for two reasons.

First off the Archmage specializes in insta cast HoTs and other instant low heals.

Second is that the Archmage powers up his abilities the opposite way the Shamen does. His dmg spells increase his dmg spells and his healing increases his healing and I think mechanically that favors the utility of the Archmage.

[Dastion]

I'd put my money on the Archmage for two reasons.

First off the Archmage specializes in insta cast HoTs and other instant low heals.

Second is that the Archmage powers up his abilities the opposite way the Shamen does. His dmg spells increase his dmg spells and his healing increases his healing and I think mechanically that favors the utility of the Archmage.

Err, where exactly are you getting this information? I can't say anything about the current state of the mechanic, but it worked very similarly to the Shamans as reported in the newsletter, class description (okay that's kinda vague), and reports from gamesdays.

Not to imply it's different now, in fact, i'm probably just being mean and making you wonder. :D

[Feralas]

Second is that the Archmage powers up his abilities the opposite way the Shamen does. His dmg spells increase his dmg spells and his healing increases his healing and I think mechanically that favors the utility of the Archmage.

Although it may not work the same way anymore, the mechanic of WAAGH! increased on doing damage only, and made heals cast much faster. I would assume that the Archmage mechanic works the same way or the opposite way (healing makes damage spells faster). That's from talking to people who played Shaman at gameday.

[wellsy]

Although it may not work the same way anymore, the mechanic of WAAGH! increased on doing damage only, and made heals cast much faster. I would assume that the Archmage mechanic works the same way or the opposite way (healing makes damage spells faster). That's from talking to people who played Shaman at gameday.

Actually, it goes both ways for both classes. Healing spells build up WAAAGH! or High Magic for damage spells, and vice versa. It's a simple mechanic of balance.

[Izule]

From what I hear an Archmage will cast their damaging spells and build up "High Magic" This reduces the cost to cast their spells and after they build up enough they'll be able to cast some spells for free as far as the shamans WAAGH!! Goes I have no idea I havent been following Destruction as closely.

[GWARAndy]

From what I hear an Archmage will cast their damaging spells and build up "High Magic" This reduces the cost to cast their spells and after they build up enough they'll be able to cast some spells for free as far as the shamans WAAGH!! Goes I have no idea I havent been following Destruction as closely.


Shaman speed up their spells with WAAGH.

So, I guess it all comes down to which is better. Casting faster or casting more. Plus, as noted before, that intelligence hit that the archmage will take from the shaman may or may not be a factor.

Personally I think the one who is able to cast the fastest will be set.

I think a lot of people see a goblin shaman and think "weak." Weak because of their size, I can't really see any other reason to think this. Well, picture a goblin shaman as the centerpeice for a large group of invading orcs. Able to blast anybody out of the way who is a threat and protect his orcy minions :p Well, I would run for the Hills if they were real, they are able to control the physically stronger Orcs (at times) for a reason. They are freaky powerful.

[DeaExMachina]

I'm not paying attention to Gameday or anything I'm talking about what the Gamespy crew said during there blog last week as they were playing the CB. One of them rolled a lvl 31 Archmage and had this to say about the class' mechanics.

There are two aspects to High Magic -- Force and Tranquility. You build up Force with damaging spells and Tranquility with heals. High magic "points" improve your spells by reducing their casting time by 20% per point and by improving the damage of instants by 5% per point. You get better heals by healing and better damage spells by attacking with them. It's the converse of the Gork and Mork system that the Greenskin shamans use.

Casting faster is more in the Archmages favor as well because the archmage specializes in a lot of low strength insta casts. I don't know if the Shaman has the same number but with the manner in which High Magic works I'd put this in the Archmages favor as he just insta casts spells which get stronger quickly.

[TiiinyGecko]

Same way shadow priests duel on WoW, rock, paper, scissor.

Seriously though, its who messes up first in th duel or even who's tactics are better.

This is a bit off topic, but I had a level 70 horde druid on Wow, and had to duel Paladins and enemy druids from time to time. Those fights could go on for WEEKS.

[Deshiva]

I'm not paying attention to Gameday or anything I'm talking about what the Gamespy crew said during there blog last week as they were playing the CB. One of them rolled a lvl 31 Archmage and had this to say about the class' mechanics.

There are two aspects to High Magic -- Force and Tranquility. You build up Force with damaging spells and Tranquility with heals. High magic "points" improve your spells by reducing their casting time by 20% per point and by improving the damage of instants by 5% per point. You get better heals by healing and better damage spells by attacking with them. It's the converse of the Gork and Mork system that the Greenskin shamans use.

Casting faster is more in the Archmages favor as well because the archmage specializes in a lot of low strength insta casts. I don't know if the Shaman has the same number but with the manner in which High Magic works I'd put this in the Archmages favor as he just insta casts spells which get stronger quickly.

I think that isn't how the mechanic works for archmage, prolly some confusion from the writer. If not then I'd say it's a bad idea to reverse the mechanic. :-|

[Dastion]

So, according to Game Spy's description of the mechanic, an Archmage can sit there and keep casting heals until they all become instant and keep on doing so? Or he can cast nukes until they all become instant cast and just run around pew pewing people or sending off instant heals?

In another part of that journal the Magus character seems to think that by debuffing a Warrior Priest's intelligence she's going to hurt his ability to heal. When it's a well known fact that Willpower = Heals. It's even posted on this site by Garthlik.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/articles/showentry.php?e=3

I think it's simply a fact of new beta testers excited about playing the game and yet, not really familiar with it so they are making a few assumptions and mistakes. If there are other mistakes, I can't go into them since I have to base it off of already known knowledge (such as the AM's mechanic and what stats effect).

Take everything with a grain of salt kids. Do you really think they'd give a career that is supposed to have a mechanic to encourage mixing up dmg with healing a mechanic that benefits by only doing one of those things? :)

[DeaExMachina]

Yes Dastion I would like to see a class like that xD

I'm not sure whether the Gamespy crew was right or not but I do like the sound of a mechanic that is built like a Gatling gun. The base spells are weak but if you keep casting them you'll eventually get stronger and stronger as long as you don't stop casting them and it resets back to its original state. I think I'm going to write that down in my design notes for the project I'm working on. :3

[Dastion]

Yes Dastion I would like to see a class like that xD

I'm not sure whether the Gamespy crew was right or not but I do like the sound of a mechanic that is built like a Gatling gun. The base spells are weak but if you keep casting them you'll eventually get stronger and stronger as long as you don't stop casting them and it resets back to its original state. I think I'm going to write that down in my design notes for the project I'm working on. :3

That's the gist of the Bright Wizard/Sorc mechanic you just described :)

Even before getting into beta I argued against the idea that a healer would be given a mechanic that encouraged dealing damage. That a WP could use RF for melee attacks, or that an Archmage could build up his mechanic through destructive magics and use that mechanic to fire off even more destructive spells. Why? Because it is counter intuitive to the role of the archetype. Now, I'm not saying I was *right* in my pre-beta arguements, and I'm not saying I was wrong. I'm merely discussing the idea and how I believe things should be.

One of the worse things a game with such strictly defined roles can do is to make their healers have purely offensive options. If you've played WoW you might know what it's like to finally find a Priest for your party, just to be snobbily told, "I do NOT heal. Yes I could do it I suppose, but I specced damage for leveling and I don't feel like doing the role that so few are able to perform. I'd rather deal damage just like every other career is capable of." Whats worse is the fact that without extra sets of gear and potentially a respec, those players really aren't that great at healing. Luckily, from what we've heard, Mythic does not intend this. Rather, they intend to make healers capable of fighting back and even helping to negate the drawbacks usually associated with doing so. These drawbacks being depleting your magical resources so that you cannot heal when needed, and not having time to throw off a heal because you were too busy trying to play nuker.

Anyhow, in less than a weeks time there will really be no need for these sort of discussions. So, in the meantime, lets just be patient and avoid this pointless discussions :)

[Enelysios]

I dissagree. I think the best possible thing you can do is give support casters damage! WAR is not trying to force everyone into the same little pegs. The reason they gave the archmage and shaman this ability is so that they can do much more than heal. They are not a class that is supposed to just sit back and heal any more than they are supposed to not heal at all and only do damage. This isn't WoW and it doesn't have to work the exact same way.

Perhaps the reason no one heals is because it is boring and fairly lazy. Other characters get all kinds of cool combo mechanics or they build up fury, or whatever, a "healer" just sits back and pumps up your life while you get all the glory, and if anyone messes up, they get the blame. On top of that, they cannot solo. Why is it a bad idea to move more towards hybrid support classes that can do a bit more when the team doesn't need any healing? Or can solo well?

Game mechanics can change, with more diverse and autonomous classes, its possible to get away without any dedicated support. I think that is where games in the future will be headed, and I hope we will soon see the end of Tank/mage/cleric forever. (although the 4th edition of DnD moves -into- these archtypes more than ever. One of many reasons I feel 4th ed is crap >.> )

EDIT: That said, I think the balance mechanic is worlds better than the "damage to do damage, heal to heal more" mechaic and hope it is a typo. Otherwise I will probably move on to bright wizard or DoK.

EDIT 2: this time its personal: If you have ever played city of heroes, perhaps you know what its like to play a forcefield defender (massive evasion buffs and a bit of control) only to be kicked from a team and snobishly told "sorry, we would ratgher have a healer" four times in a row.

[DeaExMachina]

If you think purely healing is a boring job you've obviously never played a healer. Its a really stressful job that requires a lot more attention then the front liners who just sit up there and flash hot keys at there targets without much concern because if they die, its the healers fault.

I played a Doc and by gods there has never been a more stressful class. I had to pay attention to all my parties HP as well as where they were on the battlefield because very often enough they would tend to move around and half the group would be one direction and half the group the other direction! Not to mention keeping track of buff timers, but that was easier in AO since buffs tended to be measured in minutes instead of seconds.

[Drayos]

WAR has AP for all classes so they won't go oom after awhile of nukeing and healing. Obviously going to rely on skill, gear, first shot, level and if one of them is afk.

[logicalmayhem]

lol so many variables its not funny

Masteries
Tacktics
Gear
Skill
list goes on

[Zerebral]

neverending battle commences? I mean they both have nukes and heals, both improve their spells the same way. I can see a fight like this lasting a very long time without outside influences. Does the archmage have anything that tips the scales? or the shaman? Would be interesting to hear some speculation from my fellow kin.

Only if both of them have focused on healing skills :) But I would'nt worry about it happening very often. In that case you just call for backup

[Bitterpill]

So, according to Game Spy's description of the mechanic, an Archmage can sit there and keep casting heals until they all become instant and keep on doing so? Or he can cast nukes until they all become instant cast and just run around pew pewing people or sending off instant heals?

In another part of that journal the Magus character seems to think that by debuffing a Warrior Priest's intelligence she's going to hurt his ability to heal. When it's a well known fact that Willpower = Heals. It's even posted on this site by Garthlik.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/articles/showentry.php?e=3

I think it's simply a fact of new beta testers excited about playing the game and yet, not really familiar with it so they are making a few assumptions and mistakes. If there are other mistakes, I can't go into them since I have to base it off of already known knowledge (such as the AM's mechanic and what stats effect).

Take everything with a grain of salt kids. Do you really think they'd give a career that is supposed to have a mechanic to encourage mixing up dmg with healing a mechanic that benefits by only doing one of those things? :)

Actually your wrong on the mechanic of the archmage. I cant go into yet.. NDA is still up

[Dastion]

Actually your wrong on the mechanic of the archmage. I cant go into yet.. NDA is still up

You should completely read what you quote :)

[Bitterpill]

Doh!

Sorry about that. :)

[Grax]

I thought this was common knowledge now...

The more damaging spells you cast the faster and more potent your healing becomes.


The more healing you do the faster and more potent your destructive spells become.

It's quite simple, this is what the Archmage AND the Shaman's mechanic is.

I can go into it because I saw it at Games Day Chicago. Played the archmage for 20 minutes. (not a whole lot of time I know, but still.. plenty enough to know what the mechanic is.)