Black Orc Stereotype? [Archive]

Archetype

07-25-2006, 10:05 PM

Personally, I think he does and will fille the role of Heavy tank in PvE combat, that being said normally (but not all the times) heavy tanks tend to be a bit weaker then their light tank countparts. Atleast as far as PvP goes, altho I think mythic is doing some good here making the class as they put it , not exact words but as a way to summerize it "Hard to get away from" and "deadly once they build up their attack". I think this will be a very important step to making the Black Orc Viable in PvP.
I have played a 50Hero on Daoc (Hib/Merlin) and a 60 Warrior in Daoc (Horde/Detheroc) a mid 40's Warrior in FFXI (forget server... didn't much care for that game.) I do enjoy my tanks, almost as much as I enjoy the class of druid 50 (daoc) 60 (wow) and even Diablo, and because I have not seen anything, lore or otherwise pointing to druids in Warhammer it looks like this is a definate possibility I will be taking up in WAR. I do so hope Mythic implements them right.

Dont make me a god, just make me a mean orc.

Ralzar

07-26-2006, 03:47 AM

What I like about the way they're going with this is that they have a heavy tank that is also a damage dealer. You can't just go into melee with him and expect to wear him down. He'll rip you apart with his combos.
Instead you have to engage and break off again. Basically making skirting attacks and not gettting stuck in.
So the tank has the potential to do heavy damage, but you can avoid it if you know what you're doing. This makes the tank not feel like some "holy-trinity"-like meatshield gimp, while at the same time not being overpowered. The melee-DPS classes (like the Berserker/Battler) is probably not as restricted in their damage output, being able to do good DPS right away instead of building up to it.

Edit: CoV has a good example of this in Brutes versus Scrappers. Brutes are the villain melee damage while Scrappers are the hero melee damage. A brute has much lower base damage than a scrapper, but has the potential to do more damage. Brutes have slightly more survivability as well. If the scrapper just goes straight in and starts wailing on the brute, the brutes fury will build until his damage goes through the roof and he'll splat the scrapper. However, if the scrapper goes in, fights a bit then runs away for a bit (until the brutes fury goes down) then attacks again. The Brute is stuck at his crappy base damage while the scrapper is at his full potential the whole time.

miber

07-26-2006, 07:23 AM

What I like about the way they're going with this is that they have a heavy tank that is also a damage dealer. You can't just go into melee with him and expect to wear him down. He'll rip you apart with his combos.
Instead you have to engage and break off again. Basically making skirting attacks and not gettting stuck in.
So the tank has the potential to do heavy damage, but you can avoid it if you know what you're doing. This makes the tank not feel like some "holy-trinity"-like meatshield gimp, while at the same time not being overpowered. The melee-DPS classes (like the Berserker/Battler) is probably not as restricted in their damage output, being able to do good DPS right away instead of building up to it.I agree. Also, I'm thinking the differences between Black Orcs and Berserkers may be that Black Orcs focus on a single target, while Berserkers may have some AE attacks (akin to DAoC Savages). Just got that impression since they seemed to specifically mention the Black Orcs fighting one enemy at a time ("Combat for a Black Orc revolves around engaging and defeating enemies one at a time," and "his greatest strength lies in his ability to disable his primary opponent").

The role in PvE seems obvious (to soak up damage), but the role in PvP is usually something a tank lacks. With the Black Orc most likely being able to deal some nasty damage and some nasty effects, I don't think he'll have that problem.

LiquidShaDow

07-26-2006, 07:31 AM

Based on the description from GW's miniatures site, they're to me an elite troop of higher caliber orcs. Somewhat like Uruk Hais from LOTR. Bigger, smarter and tougher than the regular orcs which makes up with strength and heavy armor for anything else they lack with agility.

Arathan

07-30-2006, 06:16 AM

(To reiterate my post from the "Ironbreaker vs Black Orc" thread http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4641 )

As I see the Black Orc, the way he "tanks" in pvp is by either taking down a single target or preventing him from fighting anything except the black orc himself. (This could be accomplished by various knockdowns, snare attacks, attack debuffs, defense debuffs etc).

For example, A hammerer rushes past the black orc in order to go for the shaman on his team.
The black orc sticks to the hammerer, first hamstringing him to keep him from catching up with the shaman who moves away a bit to give the black orc some room to work.

The hammerer can now either engage the black orc (objective accomplished for the black orc who now has to focus on taking down the, not noticeably injured, hammerer. This should, bar interferance, make for a very close and exciting fight) or he can choose to keep going for his squishy target.

If this latter thing happens, the black orc simply follows up his hamstring attack with a shield smash, disorienting the hammerer and further slowing him. This attack opens up for a shoulder smash, knocking the dwarf down and opening up for a "Kick'em while 'e's down!", ignoring the hammerer's active defenses (parry/dodge etc) and debuffing his damage output.

If the hammerer realises at this point that he simply won't catch up with the shaman and instead faces the black orc, the black orc is going to be facing a noticeably injured, slightly disoriented and DPS-debuffed hammerer, leading to a fight leaning _heavily_ in the black orc's favour.

In this way, the Black Orc will accomplish his "tanking" in pvp by making an enemy unable to do anything other than fighting the Black Orc. And also by making enemies careful about charging in, leaving the initiative to the orcs (which is where they like it of course!)

To summarise some of my thoughts on the Black Orc: I see him as having high defense, wielding a large shield (although he uses it offensively as much as, if not more than, defensively) as well as the heaviest armour on the orc side. I also see the black orc as having medium to high dps (climbing as defense debuffs are applied to his enemy and if he manages to use his "chain" abilities correctly and the enemy fails to counter them), the main reason the berserker would count as melee DPS for the orcs and the black orc being "demoted" to tank is simply because the berserker would have a much more _reliable_ high damage output while the Black Orc's DPS relies more on chaining correct abilities and stacking debuffing abilities on the enemy.

nurgleman

07-30-2006, 12:47 PM

Wez' a god far figting an' killin stuntiez! blac orcz bez a better den anie norma orc! WAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!!

Zimjin

07-31-2006, 08:48 PM

What I'd like to see:

The Black Orc's "snare" type attacks are easily parried/dodged/blocked if you're facing him.

If you're not facing him, those attacks have a 100% chance of landing, regardless of your defenses.

I also like the idea of the Black Orc relying on combos. A 1-2-3 combo where attack 1 does minimal damage, attack 2 does moderate and attack 3 does heavy damage. These attacks must be done in order with minimal delays between each attack. If the target moves away, the combo must be started over and DPS will not be that good.

So if you ignore the Black Orc, he will snare you and kill you.

If you turn and fight him, you can become unsnared and then attempt to break his combos by skirting in and out of range. As long as you don't put your back to him, he won't be able to snare you again and you can have an even fight or an advantage against him, depending on how well you break his combos.

Of course, if two Black Orcs are on you, you're dead, moreso than 2 of any other class. You might be able to escape from 2 shaman, but with 2 Black Orcs, one will always be getting behind you and applying a snare/disorient/stun/knockdown and they'll both be able to chain all their combos on you.

Ruinx

08-02-2006, 01:30 PM

Zimjin - I tend to agree with the role you suggest.

However, I would hope that it's not a matter of attacks having a "low chance" to land from the front, I'd like to see the snare-type effects and the like simply be positional attacks, and thus not applyable from the front. There should be styles usable from the front, but I'd prefer to see damage or defence oriented styles there rather than stuns/snares.

This would achieve the same objective you suggest, forcing people to turn and fight with the Black Orc, whilst avoiding the annoyance and untrustworthiness of effects that have "low chance" to land.

It would also prevent the wastage of Action Points and Morale when you try to trigger an attack from the back/side, but lag ensures the target is facing you, which could potentially be extremely annoying from the back-side.

The highest-damage chains should most certainly be back positionals, I'd argue, too, as whilst you might be able to ignore a snare (especially if you've snared your target), it's harder to ignore significant and continuing damage.

I'd also object to "breaking his combos" by skirting in and out of range. That's basically lag-exploitation, and would be frustrating and stupid-seeming from the BO perspective. I'd rather see the BO with limited damage frontal combos (good, not great damage), and combos which could be screwed up by disorienting/stunning etc. the BO than by laggy dancing around.

sisonpyh

08-03-2006, 07:28 PM

Well, the newsletter hinted at Black Orcs being able to use 'Great Choppahs'. Shields are for . Stunties will feel the wratch of my DPS stick, thank you very much.

With that said, I just hope the class doesn't get pigeon holed into a meatshield with minimal DPS. Hopefully we will be able to build a DPS version of Black Orc.

Hyrus

08-09-2006, 10:37 PM

The black orc (and ironbreaker, for that matter) are the coolest (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Greenskins/Careers/images/BlackOrc02.jpg) looking characters wielding a shield that i've seen in a game. I've never felt excited to play a shield wielding class with this clear cut exception.

Defense is always underdogged in pvp, so i'd imagine that they'd find various ways to make holding on to a shield not mean that you're damage is that far scaled down compared to other weapons.

Vitorio

08-10-2006, 02:17 AM

Yeah, ive always been a fan of the Sword + Board, but most the time u are useless in PVP. Only time ive been viable was as a Paladin (smiter) in Diablo II and that wasnt a MMORPG, hopefully WAR will allow me to enjoy that style of fighting again.

Ken

08-20-2006, 09:10 AM

I can't imagine a Black Orc any other way now that I've seen them with those killer shields...I'd imagine that with all their disorient abilities (that they've already mentioned) they would have some sort of Shield Bash that would require a shield wielded. Effective enough to where they'd WANT to wear it.

Also, I read in an interview somewhere or a presentation I don't remember which...but they're basically going to give Black Orcs something that would create a REASON to focus attacks on them. And have them actually tank in PvP.

One of their ideas is some kind of damage reduction aura (this is just an idea floating around with them, they may not actually go with it) that would make other members of the group slightly harder to kill. So they would need to focus damage on the Black Orc if they wanted to be strategic about it.

But as for Black Orcs on their own. If it stays 1v1 the black orc sounds like he'll have so much utility, he'll do fine with "Sword + Board" ;)

Because after all. He's a damage taker, not so much a damage dealer.
I'd play that. :)

sm|te

08-20-2006, 09:18 AM

Ken

08-20-2006, 10:17 AM

but what if in pvp he took off the shield and pulled out a 2hander.

Did they say this or something?... I don't know. That just sounds like WoW too much to me, and I'm expecting Warhammer to be a "different" MMO. Like it's really awesome when I look at it, but there's a lot of things about it that I'm just not used to.

And plus. Dwarf vs Orc in trailer. Orc is wearing a shield. And he's kicking .

I'm sure Black Orcs would be able to just wield a 2hander...because I think their goals and direction is they don't want to limit the player, but they're going to make reasons for players to do certain things. That sounds like their strategy anyway from what I've read about them.

Like if you really want to compare it to WoW, I would say I would compare a Black Orc to a Arms/Protection Warrior. And Berserkers are Fury Warriors.

For non-WoW players. Arms is a talent tree that focuses on improving some of your weapons, creating skills like Bleed effects on critical hits. And protection makes you more tank-like.

Fury Warriors are usually dps warriors in raids. (Arms is also a good dps tree, but Fury creates more rage [Rage is like the "mana" of warriors. You gain more from fighting and then spend it to use skills. {A lot like Morale in Warhammer}].)

Edit: If you want to be an Orc with a 2hander or something in PvP, just play a berserker.

notit

08-20-2006, 11:04 AM

Good point Ken, that last sentence rings so true.

Ken

08-20-2006, 11:07 AM

Yea and don't get me wrong I don't want to come off all -ish. (If it's okay to say that, I don't know.)

But yea...I was roaming around Dwarf Army Discussion and read in Hammerers thread that they can ONLY wield 1h and 2h HAMMERS. As that makes sense lore-wise, that feels kind of lame because it limits the class.

Because I do agree with you in one aspect, smite. If I play a Black Orc, and I feel like wearing a 2hander. I should be able to. (Assuming you have to wear a shield as a Black Orc). I don't want to feel like I'm limited. I want to feel like I have the choice to wear that shield, because it makes me awesome. But I can wear a 2hander JUST BECAUSE.

And it goes the other way, too...if I want to PvP and wear a shield. It should be a PART OF MY CLASS (career) to do it. And pull it off. And be effective. Especially since this game is PvP based.

Bhazrak

08-20-2006, 08:47 PM

I expect they'll be able to use anything they feel like.... 2-handers, shield, dual wield.... they're zoggin' orcs, they'll use whatever is at hand, and what they like, so I doubt any will be limited to certain weapon sets.

I have no fear on this subject... they won't force black orcs into using only a certain weapon type, or combination. Plus, it all coincides with the lore perfectly.

Hyrus

08-20-2006, 09:00 PM

If you're defending or taking hits, wear a shield.
If you're being constantly ignored, pull out a 2 hander and get some attention.

I call it adapting to circumstance. I'd hope and suspect that having a shield won't mean that you're gimped with damage. I'd expect there to be tradeoffs that make you powerful with a shield, just as without. However, defense has almost always been gimp in any PVP game, so i'd expect defensive statistics throughout the game to be weighed less against offensive or controling aspects. That way there's still a lot of reason to truck damage, but no dwarfed (no pun) reasons to use a shield.

Now speaking of, will dwarven hammerers be only able to wield hammers? Off topic, but just a thought on the subject.

If you want to dual wield or go with your fists, play a Beserker. If you want to boast a shield and more control, go Black Orc. Of course, there's so much assumed speculation in such statements that it'd be totally inane to go by either with our lack of details on the classes, so... bleh :^p

Ken

08-20-2006, 10:23 PM

Yea. Exactly.

See, I don't want them to limit weapons, like I said, but they're most likely going to create reasons for a Black Orc to wield a shield over a 2hander. Like I said.

Also. They mentioned making reasons to NOT ignore the Black Orcs or Ironbreakers. Like Ironbreakers will have grudge...where when they're not being attacked, they do more damage. When they are being attacked, they deal normal damage. (I don't know, the way they've been talking about it in the Ironbreaker discussions, it sounds like it'll be fair.)

Also about the Hammerers. See it seems to me that most of what Mythic is doing is making things that make sense lore-wise...like Goblins can't be big tanking guys (whereas, for example, WoW's gnomes can be warriors.) And it kind of follows the same pattern of them saying Hammerers can only wield hammers. But then again, I haven't read the Dwarf Army Discussion in depth, so if you want more info you should check it out yourself. They mentioned something about the elite classes being able to go on with axes.

Personally a smart move would let them wear whatever, but make REASONS to use hammers. Like their skills require hammers, or using hammers do more damage. But axes have faster attack. Something like that...

Back on topic: If you read some of my above posts, the way they make this defensive role sound, from what I've read. He's not exactly gimped. I mean. He can take a lot of hits. Black Orcs will have dazing attacks. Stuns. Whatever. UTILITY is the key word. He can take a lot of hits. He can stun you so you don't do as much damage. He'll just overall outlast you.

But also, I haven't said anything about it yet, but you CAN'T FORGET about all the spikes they have. Read the description for Black Orc on the main site...the look is "He has spikes. EVERYWHERE!"

Think of how that'll work. Some kind of thorn damage? Like you hit him, you take some damage? Who knows. But you can't forget about that.

You get hurt when you hit him. But if you don't kill him first in group PvP, the group will be hard to take down.

That's the impression I get of Black Orcs in PvP.

Maybe we should bug a Mythic developer to post in here and confirm/deny some of this. I hate making long posts, but I feel like I have to defend Black Orcs and say they won't be gimped just because they're a defense role. I see Warhammer standing out from most MMO's because of its uniqueness, and some similarity.

Think outside the box here, people. (This ain't gonna be WoW)

Ruinx

08-22-2006, 10:34 AM

I feel like I have to defend Black Orcs and say they won't be gimped just because they're a defense role.

They're not "a defense role", though, that's just your interpretation of them. It's very clear from their description that they're highly offensive. That they can take damage, that they make it a good idea for the enemy to focus damage on them does not make them "a defense role".

They clearly "won't be gimped", and only the insistence that they are in "a defense role" would make anyone ever think that. Heck, just look at DAoC, are Warriors "gimped" because they're "in a defense role"? No, they're not. So even that falls apart.

The point about Black Orcs is that you can't afford to ignore them, as they pose too significant a threat to people who try to bypass them. The exact nature of this threat is unclear, but it seems from the description that they do high DPS to targets ignoring them (presumably with side/back positionals and the like), and also inflict status effects on those who ignore them (disorientate, for example). That's an offensive role. You might as well call a DAoC Berserker "defensive" because people are trying to kill him to stop him killing the enemy healer whilst he's Charging.

Ken

08-22-2006, 02:47 PM

I can see lots of future debates between you and me Ruinx. Hell, if I didn't know any better I'd say you were out to get me! :P

I do say they're a defense role, because they're wearing a big shield. They are more on the offensive side...versus Ironbreakers. But not versus just a flat-out offensive class.

But I want to ask you this. Are you saying they're offensive for the sake of an arguement? or because you're saying they might as well be called Berserkers? And get rid of the whole idea of Black Orcs itself? I really don't think you're thinking in that extreme. But telling me they're not a defensive role just seems like you're looking for something to do. I.E. a fight. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just telling you how you came off.

See that's just the thing, though. You're right that they are more offensive than your average defensive classes. But I would classify them as a defensive role before I would offensive.

Edit: Also about that quote you quoted. I was saying they WON'T be gimped. I was defending Black Orcs vs people's stereotyping.

The stereotype is this: Defense roles = gimped.
I was defending Black Orcs. Saying I don't see it being the case.

notit

08-22-2006, 02:47 PM

I don't think it's fair or fitting to assume that DAOC and WAR will be the same. This isn't DAOC:2. This is WAR!

It's kind of like expecting Coke to make another soda and expecting it to be JUST LIKE coke.

Ruinx

08-23-2006, 06:09 AM

The stereotype is this: Defense roles = gimped.
I was defending Black Orcs. Saying I don't see it being the case.

I'm saying Black Orcs are offensive because they are offensive/aggressive. They are proactive, not reactive. For something to be truly defensive, it needs to be necessarily largely reactive, and it's clear that the Black Orc abilities are not reactive.

Having a shield does not make you "defensive", especially if you hit people with it frequently, I think that's the most ludicrous idea I've come across for a while. It makes you survivable, sure, but not "defensive" UNLESS you are specifically choosing to wear a shield instead of have more DPS (which I don't believe they are doing).

Purely defensive roles in PvP RPGs *are* gimped. All good character classes feature a mix of proactive and reactive abilities and roles. If you largely have reactive ones, your ability to influence the battle is extremely limited.

Example: DAoC Wardens before recent changes.

DAoC Wardens were a class I loved in PvE, and that I loved the style and "lore" of. They created a pulsing anti-melee barrier, buffed the group in a variety of ways, could give speed, and a shield, sword, and bow, as well as powerful heals. Sounds great, huh?

Only, the problem in RvR was that their abilities were almost entirely reactive/defensive. Their sword styles did little damage and had little effect. The bow was even worse. Their buffs and the pulsing "bubble" were great but purely defensive/reactive. Their heals were obviously also an entirely reactive ability. If they saw something going wrong, new enemies coming in, or whatever, they could do almost nothing about, because they were purely defensive/reactive.

After the changes, they gave them shield-styles which, despite your claims that shields are "defensive" made them a far more powerful and offensive class, actually allowing them to significantly influence combat (shield styles allowed you to proactively stun people, previously Wardens only had purely reactive stun styles).

Similarly, if an Armsman chose to spec 50 Shield/50 Slashing/28 Parry (let's not even think about 50 Shield/50 Parry) and ignore Polearms or 2H weapons, he was vastly less useful than an Armsman who had a "hybrid" spec and could switch between DPSing and defending himself/others.

This is why people think "defensive" is gimped, because being purely defensive and survivable in a way that protects only yourself IS gimped!

This is the genius of the design of the Black Orc class. It is not a pure "defensive" class. It's an offensive class with good defenses that's offensive is of such a nature that it's a good idea to attack it despite it's defenses. It's not a reactive class. Good defenses don't make you "defensive", reactive/defense-only abilities do. Yes, it's possible to use proactive abilities to defend, and that's exactly why many Black Orcs will do. It's also possible to use them to attack (unlike purely reactive abilities). Ironbreakers are clearly a defensive class, as their main ability, Grudges, is deeply reactive. This makes them, I think, a rather riskier proposition than Black Orcs, and I suspect when WAR is released, Ironbreakers may be very different to how they are now (moreso than other revealed classes).

Now, we can argue that reactive and defensive are different things, but that's a waste of time, really, because they're synonymous in most gamers' minds. That's probably a bad thing, but proactive classes are almost always more fun for intelligent people to play than purely reactive ones. This is why my wife, who loved playing a Healer in DAoC RvR, where most of what she did was actually proactive CC, gradually came to loathe playing a Priest in WoW, where all she could do "proactively" in raids was throw the odd shield or Renew on people, and she had to act almost entirely reactively (and worse, reactively with slow, clumsy, heals, but that's a whole other thread).

PS - People often think I'm looking for a fight or out to get them. It's the curse of being an offensive . Woe is me. I'm not, though, I just see things that I don't believe are correct and seek to correct them. Often somewhat rudely ;)

Retit - No-one is saying that.

Ken

08-23-2006, 08:13 AM

I was thinking more along the lines of a defensive role as someone who could stand there and take a while to kill them purely because they can take the hits. But the fact that, in the words you used, he is indeed more proactive than reactive I'd say we already agreed on.

And.

Once more.

I was just defending Black Orcs in the aspect of them not being gimped.

As people have said in earlier posts. Or worried about.

P.S. WoW sucks. :D

notit

08-23-2006, 09:37 AM

Yeah, you're right. No one is right out saying "Hey, man, this is going to be like Daoc."

But you are comparing a lot of things to DAOC. So, I thought you were going to assume a lot of this game being like DAOC, and more of an upgrade.

and it's notit, not retit. :cool: :p

Ruinx

08-23-2006, 09:58 AM

But you are comparing a lot of things to DAOC. So, I thought you were going to assume a lot of this game being like DAOC, and more of an upgrade.

Sorry for the name error. I'm not using DAoC because I think WAR will be exactly like DAoC or an upgrade, I'm using DAoC as a "frame of reference" (I think that's the best term), or perhaps a metaphor for WAR. Obviously we don't have enough details on WAR to think in purely WAR terms, so we need points of comparison. DAoC is the only other RvR game in the world, and also by Mythic, and thus using it for comparison seems fairly valid to me at least. I know WAR won't be similar, though, be assured of that. WoW is also frequently talked about because it's another point of comparison/reference, but we don't expect it to be like that, either, I hope.

Given that DAoC's RvR and WoW's HvA play somewhat similarly, as do other side-based PvP games (such as Guild Wars), I think certain concepts, styles of play and particularly tactics are likely to translate fairly directly into WAR.

Belatucadros

08-24-2006, 07:31 AM

Sorry for the name error. I'm not using DAoC because I think WAR will be exactly like DAoC or an upgrade, I'm using DAoC as a "frame of reference" (I think that's the best term), or perhaps a metaphor for WAR. Obviously we don't have enough details on WAR to think in purely WAR terms, so we need points of comparison. DAoC is the only other RvR game in the world, and also by Mythic, and thus using it for comparison seems fairly valid to me at least. I know WAR won't be similar, though, be assured of that. WoW is also frequently talked about because it's another point of comparison/reference, but we don't expect it to be like that, either, I hope.

Given that DAoC's RvR and WoW's HvA play somewhat similarly, as do other side-based PvP games (such as Guild Wars), I think certain concepts, styles of play and particularly tactics are likely to translate fairly directly into WAR.

I see a lot of people getting defensive whenever anything WAR is compared to another MMO, but as you said, we have no other frame of reference. When NDA is dropped or more info is released and we know what actual gameplay is like, when we're able to move from speculation to discussion - THAT is when it'll "stop"

I put that in quotes because it won't really - it'll just happen less.

It's how you explain something about one game to someone who played another - you explain it to them on their terms.

IN daoc terms, I think the black orc is going to be a utlity fighter. A cross between, for instance, a champion and a 1.85 berserker. Able to snare/immobilize for the train, and also debuffing targets. They can BUILD dps, but I don't see them being "high" dps, even at their top.

Utility is often far greater than damage, so those of you who are about to, don't take that as a slight. I'd rather see them soaked in utility and unable to kill a kitten. Not to say they won't do decent damage, but I don't expect it to be tops.

Ruinx

08-24-2006, 09:36 AM

Utility is often far greater than damage, so those of you who are about to, don't take that as a slight. I'd rather see them soaked in utility and unable to kill a kitten. Not to say they won't do decent damage, but I don't expect it to be tops.

Tops is pretty subjective. If you mean that they won't be the very most damaging class in the whole of the game, I'm sure you're correct.

Utility makes damage more effective, though, and "decent damage" is pretty vague term. I mean, when you say damage do you mean "burst damage", "sustained DPS", "situational DPS", "big numbers" or what? I expect Black Orcs will have some pretty scary situational damage (that's what it sounds like to me), and I expect that if Ironclaws are all about dual-wielding fist-weapons (like Savages and Maulers), that Black Orcs will have better "big numbers" than them, especially if they use 2Hs from time to time (and SOME kind of Orc does, we see it in the videos).

If their utility allows them to keep opponents off-balance, snared, disorientated, staggered and so on, that they have somewhat lower "sustained DPS" will be more or less mitigated, and they'll be killing kittens left right and center.

I do think, though, to be clear, that if you, Elf Mage McDanceswithfaeries, get charged by a Black Orc and are thinking "Ooooh that tickles!" rather than " I need to get away from/kill/cc this guy!", then yes, we have a serious problem. So there are *limits* to the trading damage for utility when we're talking about Black Orcs. They have to do enough straight-up damage to be true to their origins.

Belatucadros

08-24-2006, 09:55 AM

Tops is pretty subjective. If you mean that they won't be the very most damaging class in the whole of the game, I'm sure you're correct.

Utility makes damage more effective, though, and "decent damage" is pretty vague term. I mean, when you say damage do you mean "burst damage", "sustained DPS", "situational DPS", "big numbers" or what? I expect Black Orcs will have some pretty scary situational damage (that's what it sounds like to me), and I expect that if Ironclaws are all about dual-wielding fist-weapons (like Savages and Maulers), that Black Orcs will have better "big numbers" than them, especially if they use 2Hs from time to time (and SOME kind of Orc does, we see it in the videos).

If their utility allows them to keep opponents off-balance, snared, disorientated, staggered and so on, that they have somewhat lower "sustained DPS" will be more or less mitigated, and they'll be killing kittens left right and center.

I do think, though, to be clear, that if you, Elf Mage McDanceswithfaeries, get charged by a Black Orc and are thinking "Ooooh that tickles!" rather than " I need to get away from/kill/cc this guy!", then yes, we have a serious problem. So there are *limits* to the trading damage for utility when we're talking about Black Orcs. They have to do enough straight-up damage to be true to their origins.

As far as base DPS, I see them as being on par with the ironbreaker and relying on their utility(wether that be a disorient, stun, damage boost), and being able to take bit less of a beating than an ironbreaker(because of said utility)

Hausser

08-28-2006, 01:36 PM

Wez' a god far figting an' killin stuntiez! blac orcz bez a better den anie norma orc! WAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!!

I would have to agree 100% with that statement. The Black Orc is the biggest baddest Orc. He is both a leader and a killing machine. A leader that leads from the front lines smashing and bashing.

High Damage, High Armor, but slow in movement.

As far as the weapons discussion. The "common" armament of the Black Orc would be a one hander and a shield. HE CAN use a two hander or even dual weild, but at a much lower weapon efficiency and weapon damage.

Cifer

08-30-2006, 09:27 AM

I'd also see the black orc as a tank that bullies others into attacking him (the aforementioned snare on targets not facing him) and then develops a relatively good 1on1 combat style.

Ken

08-30-2006, 04:23 PM

"hehe. you stupid ugly stuntie."
"you ugly too"
"and you a smelly one"
"uuggh! you smelliest! did your stupid smelly mama not teach you smell good??"

That kind of bullying? I'd play it! :)

I think the more I hear about this collision detection stuff, and the way the Black Orcs and Ironbreakers are being set up. I may have to be a Black Orc :)

Krushchev

09-04-2006, 07:13 PM

for everyone who doesnt play the table top and doesnt know much about the fluff surounding greenskins and black orcs in particular (this gets really long quick so heres a short version)

Dwarves love gold, gold is good. Dwarves get to greedy and mine really really deep for gold they see something really really bad and become tainted by chaos. they run away from good dwarves and form their own empire in teh badlands they take orcs and goblins as slaves and work them to death. they start to need of stronger slaves and start research on a stronger orc they find the results promising and make the first black orc. the black orcs become strong in mind as well as in strength and plan a rebellion the chaos dwarves quell this rebellion after many tips from goblins... the black orcs become enraged with the goblins and try to run away and most escpae into the the worlds edge muontains and so on and so forth.

As the fluff kinda implies these guys are badasses with a will to survive they might not be able to get good damage straight off the bat but maybe 1-2 debuffs or some hits from you and theyll be tearing you limb from limb.

Moonbane

09-06-2006, 06:42 AM

For those who do play the TT game, when was the last time you actually saw a black orc minature wearing a shield?
...thats right they either dual wield or have two handed weapons, also they are the most powerfull orcs alive and should get good damage straight off the bat, rather than the 1-2 debuffs later, hell they should tear their enemies limp from limp regardless.
As much as i despise the "tank" class in any game no mather what kind of extra damage they are given, i know that they are nessecary, but i dont see the black orc as the ample answer in this case, as normal orcs are more likely to wear shields in the first place.
Switch it around and make the black orc the greenskin dps class, that would make more sence as they are bigger, stronger, better fighters and have better equipment.

just my thoughts on this.

Belatucadros

09-06-2006, 06:50 AM

if we based this too closely on the TT lore...wouldn't the chaos just steamroll everyone else?
heh.

I think the utility fighter thing is great, and I can't wait to see what they are doing with it

Ken

09-06-2006, 11:30 AM

As much as i despise the "tank" class in any game no mather what kind of extra damage they are given

Hehe what if they weren't given extra damage? What if they were given collision detection and combo moves? :P

I didn't enjoy playing a Warrior in WoW. But I'm pumped about Black Orcs in WAR.

Moonbane

09-06-2006, 01:36 PM

If the tank then becomes a real warrior and not a living shield then yes i will look forward to it aswell.

ConverseSC

09-07-2006, 10:04 AM

Black Orcs aren't created the same way as they are in the TT.

Read the class descriptions at the official site.

Kaikai

09-07-2006, 01:53 PM

the way i see it, the black orc isnt the usual style of tank, most tanks have medium to low dps and high defence.

i see the black orc as a medium defence high damage class, he tanks by making sure hes in the face of the enemy and the biggest threat possible.

the way the taunt skill works is pure genius

Krushchev

09-07-2006, 02:17 PM

Black Orcs aren't created the same way as they are in the TT.

Read the class descriptions at the official site.

Thanks but they still follow the same base as black orcs origins cuz the uprising wasnt straight away it took some 300 years when grimgor ironhide finally realized what was happening and hatched a plan to kill the chaos dwarfs and escape and they werent originally black like i said in my previous post it was a short version of the 2 page origin. They grow into color which is a symbol of who is in charge along with the larger the body and more muscular they are.

sisonpyh

09-15-2006, 01:06 AM

Because after all. He's a damage taker, not so much a damage dealer.
I'd play that. :)

You're pretty much wrong. But whatever.

Because Grimgor's and his boyz were just tanks and weilded shields! Not.

I just hope being able to build a DPS version of a Black Orc is feasible. Great, they can be effective using a shield but everybody doesn't want their class to be pigeon holed into that role

The whole mentality of an Orc is destruction and killing. Andz u killz betta with a really big choppa. This is fact.

As far as the weapons discussion. The "common" armament of the Black Orc would be a one hander and a shield. HE CAN use a two hander or even dual weild, but at a much lower weapon efficiency and weapon damage.

Bzzzzzzz, WRONG. Why do people spout misinformation?

Exhibit A: http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/orcs/catalog/black_orcs.htm

DO YOU SEE A SHIELD IN THAT PICTURE? No, you don't. But the Black Orc do have access to better armor. They should be a tank doing with good armor (not as much as Dwarves) but still do massive damage and 2handers or dual wielding is prefered.

Ken

09-15-2006, 02:40 AM

Yay and in come rolling the elitists!

As someone said in another thread, don't expect it to be EXACTLY LIKE Warhammer. Granted GW is checking off everything that goes into WAR, but I'm sure they're leaving Mythic some leeway (sp?) to meet the standard MMO needs.

Yea Black Orcs will be better damage dealers than Ironbreakers, but if you're telling me they won't be the damage takers of Greenskins, well...then what's the difference between a Berserker/Ironclaw and a Black Orc?

A choice to use a bow? A bunch of small damage attacks?, I.E. the idea of using elbow and headbutts and various combo moves (which logically won't do 209798173 damage).

I guess I should have explained it better, since I forgot how many elitists lurk these forums. But of the other Greenskin careers, Black Orc is described as the highest damage taker, with dirty tricky moves, stuns and disorients, and more utility.

But yes. Da biggest choppa do da biggest hurt. And I'm sure they won't leave Black Orcs out of that idea, but they have YET to describe them as the biggest damage dealers of the greenskin careers in this game called Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning.

Belatucadros

09-15-2006, 07:27 AM

yeah, BO looks to be the greenskin heavy tank. just because he's not as heavy as the ironbreaker doesn't mean a thing, as far as balance within greenskins is concerned

Axxar

09-15-2006, 08:12 AM

I think Black Orcs will have the ability to hit hard. They are after all really big and have large choppas. However they might not have the quickest attack speed and the really huge numbers will probably not come that often. Their DPS is going to be lower than the Ironjaws, otherwise there'd be no balance - but it doesn't mean they can't rival or even beat the numbers of any single swing the Ironjaw produces. That said, the Black Orc looks like a really appealing and fun class. I can't wait to hear more about it, and it does seem to be focused around using shields according to the description and images (but who knows for sure?). There's some ideas for shield usage in this thread (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5825) as well.

BuckFlashback

09-16-2006, 12:04 AM

I don't think anyone else mentioned this, so I'm gonna. In the new Orc Armybook that'll be released pretty soon Black Orcs will get a really cool rule called "Armed to da teef", which states they get to choose whether they will use 2 hand weapons or great weapons in each combat. That right there sounds like a pretty good reason they should be an offensive class, but then again Black Orcs are the only orcs that get access to heavy armor and they always have access to shields. I know the official models don't show them with shields, but half of the reason for the TT is painting and converting your own models. So deciding on classes based on what you see on the GW online store is a bad idea.

I really think that Black Orcs could of gone either way as DPS or Tank and their current incarnation is acceptable. Since Black Orcs wear tougher and heavier armor than all other orcs why shouldn't they be the tanks (If you're gonna name a whole friggin' class after them)?

kaukus

09-17-2006, 09:27 PM

k bottem line is that black orcs+dwalf= dead dwalf
the black orcs ar going to be godly:D

Push

10-16-2006, 01:42 AM

guess can be a tank or a offensive light tank without shield. all to your playstyle!

Lakvar

10-17-2006, 10:02 AM

I perused over the thread but not commenting on what y'all said, let me describe my Black Orc.

Obviously, a heavy armored tanker and a brawler, I'd like to see player choices tilt him in either one or the other direction.
As a tanker, we could see heavy use of shield bashing and some slowing "stay here and fight" me abilities.
As a brawler, come the more interesting effects - giving up some of that defence and ability to soak, he takes on a hand-out debuffs role and quickly too. I'd love him to see, as he works up his frenzy, to be able to go about quickly from target to target and being able to keep 2 or more severely crippled and otherwise gimped. A black orc brawler, if not stopped, will make fools of the enemy's players and open a lot of work for the debuffers / priests.

~Lakvar, on how good it is to make others feel Weak!

Aweraw

10-24-2006, 05:55 AM

snaring a target focing it to fight you and a debuffed state sounds so much like grapple to me. THE FUN....

Belatucadros

10-24-2006, 01:43 PM

snaring a target focing it to fight you and a debuffed state sounds so much like grapple to me. THE FUN....

how is a snare or debuff ANYTHING like grapple? If we're discussing DAOC, that is.

Radika1

11-20-2006, 03:52 PM

:cool: I would like to see the Black orc as one who is dangerous to face close up for allmost every class, but got problems when ranged gets him.

I mean.. when he first get you stunned and snared he will get hard to defeat. So he will have a bonus versus all melee classes but a weakness against ranged.

Kraus

11-20-2006, 04:52 PM

The aim isnt for melee classes to trump ranged and ranged to trump melee, but eveyone be on a more equal basis. Everyone has there advantages.

Gorbad Ironclaw

11-25-2006, 08:41 PM

All the biggest baddest and meanest orc clans are led by Blackorcs! Grimgor for example kicked the living sh*t out of the Everchosen of Chaos and his elite warband so there is no reason why Blackorc HAVE to be a tanking class, from Warhammer lore Blackorcs really just run in and mangle what ever gets in their way! :D

Guido

11-27-2006, 03:35 PM

Yes but this is an MMO, and as such has to fulfil certain roles. Did you honestly expect a Choppa to be a tank? What in this Warhammer TT game lore that you are all so keen to bring into a different game would be better fitted to take damage than the orcs with the heaviest armor?

I expect moderate damage from Black Orcs, combined with high defense.

Sandman

11-27-2006, 05:04 PM

I just hope they can do some dmg, i got tired of rogue class i played past ... 6 years in different MMOs, now i want to be huge hp bag covered in full plate armor with 2h stick to beat ppl with.

Kraus

11-27-2006, 09:25 PM

Yes they will be able to do damage - like every other class, just dont expect them whipping out Choppa damage levels.

Sandman

11-28-2006, 07:30 AM

Im just affraid ranged classes will be able to nuke so hard that before we can catch them we will get owned, or will just kite till we die.

Lukio

11-28-2006, 08:12 AM

Except from just being a massive heavy-tank style character, possibly black orcs will also be able to positively influence initiative or morale for other allied players nearby - maybe just for the group they are in (thinking in DAoC terms of Hero + Warden type class).

Kraus

11-28-2006, 01:27 PM

Sandman - The idea they are going for is make is so melee cant eat ranged, and ranged cant eat melee. The kiting isnt that comprehensive.

Sandman

11-29-2006, 12:26 AM

i wanna see that perfect balance...

Ken

11-30-2006, 09:16 AM

Well let's be realistic. No one knows enough about it to say it isn't perfect.
No one knows enough about it to say it's unbalanced.

You can know all the abilities and what they do in the game, and you can't say it's imbalanced until you see the numbers that follow it.

Wait for beta, AT LEAST, before you start saying someone will be left behind in a fight.

I didn't jump on the "perfect" statement, because I understood what you meant...

Mythic isn't dumb...I seriously doubt they'd ever let something like that happen (leaving melee behind in a ranged fight). They had an MMO for 5 years, and it did pretty well. Friends who have played it (and many other MMO's) have said it holds the title of "best PvP game". Sounds like they know what they're doing.

I wish I could send a mass PM and tell everyone (and convince them) not to worry until we start seeing ridiculous imbalances in the numbers of beta. Mythic seems pretty level.
So far everything has been coming out alright as far as balance is concerned (imo, of course).

Sandman

12-01-2006, 01:39 AM

we will see, im just sick and tired of beeing kited

Gorblum

12-11-2006, 05:13 AM

I dont think people have to worry about damage too much for Black Orcs, I'm sure they will do relatively good damage. But having said that, they are going to be the ones soaking the most damage for the Greenskin army because they wear heavier armour. Still their more offensive because of their stunning moves and like they say " A good offense is a good defence " The stunning moves themselves works in both ways by stopping the enemy to return damage.

Therefore Black Orcs will be great for being a tank , even though they wont do as much damage as a Choppa class that goes in frenzy would but working together would be great, one stuns and other takes advantage to unleash his frenzy on that opponent. So the best of both worlds as a team. Also remember Black Orcs are like leaders of the greenskins so they may have some moves to help groups too.

Belatucadros

12-11-2006, 06:51 AM

we will see, im just sick and tired of beeing kited

With all the snares/knockdowns that is pretty unlikely, that's not counting colision detection and the fact that melee, magic AND sprinting all use the same bar of 'action points'

if a caster kites you until he runs out of end....he's also out of power.

MY concern, and it should be your concern too if you claim to be concerned, is how they are going to balance action point pools.

If they aren't even, I can see a caster kiting until I am out of AP but he's not. If tanks have more AP...I can see a caster being run down easily.

I'm wondering how ability costs are going to be balanced, really.

Malvos

12-11-2006, 10:43 AM

There seems to be alot of argueing over very pointless things, like most forums.

1. Black Orcs. Your a tank. Thats what you are.
http://www.war-rvr.net/images/rsgallery/original/war-rvr-gencon06-pic7.jpg
http://www.war-rvr.net/images/rsgallery/original/war-rvr-gencon06-pic14.jpg
http://www.war-rvr.net/images/rsgallery/original/war-rvr-gencon06-pic11.jpg

2. Black Orcs. Your a debuffer. Thats what you are.
http://www.war-rvr.net/images/rsgallery/original/war-rvr-gencon06-pic6.jpg
http://www.war-rvr.net/images/rsgallery/original/war-rvr-gencon06-pic4.jpg
http://www.war-rvr.net/images/rsgallery/original/war-rvr-gencon06-pic10.jpg

3. Black Orcs. Your a damage dealer. Thats what you are.
http://www.war-rvr.net/images/rsgallery/original/war-rvr-gencon06-pic15.jpg

4. Black Orcs. You can use Great Choppas.
http://www.war-rvr.net/images/rsgallery/original/war-rvr-gencon06-pic16.jpg

In case you don't follow, yet. Your a mean green machine. You can use tactics to be a better tank or a better dps. You can debuff what your fighting and people around you. However, your specialty will be the one person you turn your armored green head towards. You get armor debuffs, knockdowns, attack speed debuffs and snairs. Plus everything you crank out does damage! At the end of a combo of debuffs comes an even nicer higher damage move that if you use at the end of a string of builders DEBUFFS MORE!

You get one of the best designed Taunts I've seen in MMOs. Some games make them useless, some games like CoV/CoH force a player to attack you. Your taunt makes people actually have to pay attention to the game or they are effectively nullified. 50% less damage to a target is virtually crippling. This is how you single out which poor soul you want to pound into the ground. Sure they can ignore you if they want. However, they are going to be into a rude awaking as they try to feebly beat on another target while you and their target have your way with them.

If that taunt right there isn't a reason to roar, "WAAAAGH!" then I don't know what is. Stop worrying so much about what you can do as an individual. This isn't D.U.E.L. or S.O.L.O. this is W.A.R.

Stop trying to play DaoC in the warhammer world. Stop trying to play WoW in the warhammer world. This is W.A.R. baby.

Ripple

12-21-2006, 08:41 PM

In case you don't follow, yet. Your a mean green machine. You can use tactics to be a better tank or a better dps. You can debuff what your fighting and people around you. However, your specialty will be the one person you turn your armored green head towards. You get armor debuffs, knockdowns, attack speed debuffs and snairs. Plus everything you crank out does damage! At the end of a combo of debuffs comes an even nicer higher damage move that if you use at the end of a string of builders DEBUFFS MORE!

You get one of the best designed Taunts I've seen in MMOs. Some games make them useless, some games like CoV/CoH force a player to attack you. Your taunt makes people actually have to pay attention to the game or they are effectively nullified. 50% less damage to a target is virtually crippling. This is how you single out which poor soul you want to pound into the ground. Sure they can ignore you if they want. However, they are going to be into a rude awaking as they try to feebly beat on another target while you and their target have your way with them.

If that taunt right there isn't a reason to roar, "WAAAAGH!" then I don't know what is. Stop worrying so much about what you can do as an individual. This isn't D.U.E.L. or S.O.L.O. this is W.A.R.

Stop trying to play DaoC in the warhammer world. Stop trying to play WoW in the warhammer world. This is W.A.R. baby.
Nicely put my friend.

Ashnari Doomsong

01-14-2007, 10:38 AM

Of course, it's Warhammer with a completely moronic storyline, but still. A nice point.

Krulltak

01-14-2007, 10:43 AM

Of course, it's Warhammer with a completely moronic storyline, but still. A nice point.

What? The storyline sounds just like a Warhammer one.......contant Warfare.

Ashnari Doomsong

01-14-2007, 11:50 AM

I am here referring to, for example, Finubar personally leading an expeditionary force, a fleet of Black Arks suddenly appearing out of nowhere, Malekith making amulets to give a snotty little goblin magical powers beyond what he, himself can command, said fleet of Black Arks making it past the vigilance of Arnhelm's sentries AND Ulthuan's fabled navy, Tzeentch suddenly fabricating the most horrifying plague ever, thus incidentially intruding on Nurgle's turf and Finubar not immediately returning to Ulthuan when he hears of a new invasion that's actually reached Lothern.

Shall I go on? That was all off the top of my head. I'm sure I can find more glaring holes.

Krulltak

01-15-2007, 08:59 AM

Who said Tzeentch made the plague;) ? You don't know the full story until you play the game.

Ashnari Doomsong

01-15-2007, 10:12 AM

Nah, but I can read what they've released already.

Harlequin

01-25-2007, 05:32 AM

To me a Black Ork is all about over-whelming strength and brutality. It's going to be interesting to see how they implement the two different melee styles - the brute force of an ork and the lethal speed of a witch elf. . .

From experience with previous games 'tank' type characters can sometimes be heavily overpowered in comparison to other classes so game balance will be interesting to watch!

Kinthral

01-25-2007, 10:06 AM

dylan_gp2010

02-16-2007, 09:20 AM

I think the black orc will be a tank very similar to WOW's warrior class. Plus, that's not necessarily a bad thing because WOW is a greart game, but I want WAR to be better so I hope they do some extra stuff with the Black Orc.

Daris

02-17-2007, 02:54 AM

you do understand the WoW warrior class is an archetype tank with no outstanding or unique abilities

Ken

02-17-2007, 01:18 PM

you do understand the WoW warrior class is an archetype tank with no outstanding or unique abilities

Haha I just couldn't think of a nice way of responding to his post... I'm so glad someone else did :(

But yea. I suppose you could say every class in Warhammer is similar to other classes in any other MMO (and WoW is another MMO).

However. If we're going to directly compare the two MMO's I'd say Warhammer's ______ is like WoW's _______ but with a twist. I have more to say about WoW in comparison to WAR, but as I learned from the movie Bambi long long ago when I was a young child... If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. I like to let my sword do the talking...so you guys will just have to wait almost a year til you can see my mean side.

I say with a twist because if you look at every career each one has a "specialty", and if you really think about the specialties we've seen so far... each one has been very unique from other MMO's I've seen/played. The only exception I've come across is the Bright Wizard. It's specialty is being able to do a lot of damage really quick, but is very weak. Not really new...but they can blow stuff up so hey who's complaining?

Daris

02-17-2007, 01:38 PM

Haha I just couldn't think of a nice way of responding to his post... I'm so glad someone else did :(

that bit confuses me..dunno might just be a lack of sleep :D. and yeah the bright wizard is a bit generic but hell you gotta love it when he explodes on death

Krulltak

02-17-2007, 03:16 PM

Gee, I don't know Ken the Choppa seems pretty unoriginal to me in terms of its gimmick, just your traditional berserker.

CrusherDestroyer

02-17-2007, 06:13 PM

"Black Orc Stereotype" made me giggle.

Krulltak

02-17-2007, 06:17 PM

"Black Orc Stereotype" made me giggle.

I See what you did there.

Ken

02-17-2007, 07:39 PM

Gee, I don't know Ken the Choppa seems pretty unoriginal to me in terms of its gimmick, just your traditional berserker.

Yea I guess I see your point there... but please understand the only MMO I've seriously played is WoW. The way the Choppa works is a lot better because the way morale affects them is how I think "rage" in WoW should have worked.

The more morale the Choppa gets it's implied he has more DPS. Whether that means higher attack speed, damage, or crit chance... The Choppa can spend that morale for deadly blows, or keep it for his angry melee.

I think it goes JUST OUTSIDE the boundaries of being generic.

But yea. Generic Bright Wizards... Blowing up? Yes, I think so. That's their twist.

Anyway, Daris. When he said WoW was a great game I was holding back a good flaming post... but I'm a little bitter towards WoW. I was hoping someone would post something else (to change the subject a little. Or open up a door to a subject change) in this sole, and good, thread in the Black Orc Discussion so I could post my love for Black Orcs and not be distracted by any hate towards WoW.

I know I got a little confusing with that last paragraph....but I think you got the gist.

Daris

02-18-2007, 02:06 AM

ah WoW yes...Satan in disguise hmmm I have something of intrest coming in a few days

Whillow

03-13-2007, 09:37 AM

i guess black orcs indeed are tanks. they'll act as a protective barrier and absorb huge amounts of damage to give the other team-mates the chance to do their job!

Instant_Karma

03-13-2007, 02:15 PM

PvE he's gonna wear the shield and soak up damage, but what if in pvp he took off the shield and pulled out a 2hander. I suppose PvP will all depend on how the black orcs skill tree or spec's are alligned.

While this does sound alot like WoW, and I know some have already mentioned that, one thing I would like to point out from the TT and under the current Orcs & Goblins Armybook is that the black orcs are designed around the idea of them being the toughest and nasty orcs in a tribe. They are no nonsense fighters, who beat and pummel anyone who gets in there way (including other orcs). The always have the best armor (for an orc) and also carry a wide variety of choppas, be they 1 handed, 2 handed etc (This is under a new rule for them called "Armed to da Teef"). It seems that allowing a black orc to either go 2-hander or choppa and shield is at least consistent with the fluff and rules for black orcs on the TT {no dual-wielding choppas though; that should be a speciality for the, well, Orc Choppa (They can't just call him a Big'Un?)}.

As for tanking etc, the idea of snares, stuns and positional attacks all sound appealing to myself (espeically if I could actually 'kick' a dwarf after I knocked him down). i'm not quite that versed in the dynamics of gameplay etc (least not as much as others) so i'll leave my opinion at that.

Gazlowe

03-13-2007, 07:42 PM

Cats

04-01-2007, 07:34 AM

people talk about taking out a two hander for pvp, but why can't a black orc use a shield for offensive attacks as well...perhaps reflecting arrows and spells. you can bash someone with a shield. it would be almost as if one were dual wielding. though, the offhand weapon would be a shield. much more resourceful imo. and with the ability to block other enemies from getting past you at choke points, it would seem viable to actually tank in pvp.

imagine a wall of black orcs in full plate in the way of a resource silo. some simple strafing and the other team is simply overdone. pvp isn't always about damage, i'm sure if that is your only goal, an Orc Choppa would be much more suited for your playstyle. though the Black Orc can hold it's own in damage, it is no one-trick pony (had to reference the site) for pvp strategy.

at least this is what i envision.

Black Hammer

04-01-2007, 12:41 PM

Not to mention that descriptions of Black Orc "Combat Chains" are more akin to a WoW Rogue than a WoW Warrior. So think of a Rogue/Tank for the best analogy.

Oasis

04-01-2007, 05:23 PM

Gemini

04-01-2007, 05:41 PM

I think it is very likely that black orcs will have plenty of shield-based skills, both offensive and defensive. I mean, think about what a black orc is. He is a tank through game mechanics, but its not like a black orc picks up a shield and thinks "Hmmm, I can defend my brothers in arms with this very well." He picks up a shield and goes "*grunt* 'dis has good spikey bits, it break stuntie's face real gud. Hrm, may'e even block their puny hamma'."

Smashin

04-03-2007, 04:53 AM

From what i've seen so far from posts and links it seems black orcs are the class for me, much like a warrior in defence stance in WoW except dishes alot more damage out and stuff :) can't wait to get my hands on one !!

- Smashin

NoneSuch

04-03-2007, 01:29 PM

How is it anything like the Warrior in defence mode in wow?.... I really can't see any connections whatsoever, it's far more like the rogue class.

Krulltak

04-03-2007, 01:45 PM

Yes...... it is a subtlety rogue without stealth, in plate armor, and uses high damage moves when he has his enemy right where he wants them.

NoneSuch

04-03-2007, 02:01 PM

Well I was thinking about the chain attack thing and how he builds up his attacks etc. But pretty much

Cats

04-04-2007, 05:42 AM

i would stray away from making analogies too closely threaded to other games. i'm sure whatever they are planning for our black orcs, it will be groundbreaking and original for what seems to be the tanking class for the greenskins

Charnel

04-10-2007, 12:11 PM

What would definitely make me want to roll a black orc right away is this: Tripping your opponents when they run next to you, and giving people weggies :eek:

kasuo

04-30-2007, 04:49 PM

They need to realize that most people know what roles are in MMO's. Clearly stating "Tankar" or "Melee DPS'er", or "Healer/DPS" will help people make the right decisions.
Giving descriptions that dont state clearly the intended role although nice and fluffy will lead eventually to one class demanding to do this or that as well as another.

Krulltak

04-30-2007, 04:51 PM

They need to realize that most people know what roles are in MMO's. Clearly stating Tankar" or "Melee DPS'er", or "Healer/DPS" will help people make
the right decisions.

No. WAR claseses will not be traditional. You will not have people pigeon-holes into role. Sure, a Heavy Tank class will stick to the tradition of melee combat and heavy armor, but he will not just sit around spamming taunt and such as in other MMOs. WAR is built for PVP.

kasuo

04-30-2007, 05:09 PM

No. WAR claseses will not be traditional. You will not have people pigeon-holes into role. Sure, a Heavy Tank class will stick to the tradition of melee combat and heavy armor, but he will not just sit around spamming taunt and such as in other MMOs. WAR is built for PVP.

What about the people that like to just tank, or just heal, or just DPS? Are the class descriptions going to be so vague that you roll a class to do a specific thing and be the best at it, only to have another class come along in 2 yrs and decide they want to do your job as well or better and demand buffs in that dept?

Krulltak

04-30-2007, 05:12 PM

What about the people that like to just tank, or just heal, or just DPS? Are the class descriptions going to be so vague that you roll a class to do a specific thing and be the best at it, only to have another class come along in 2 yrs and decide they want to do your job as well or better and demand buffs in that dept?

If you want to "just heal", this is not the game for you, as the classes who heal will be highly unneffective if they JUST heal, because they have other roles to fill.

The offensive melee classs will "just DPS" more or less.

And in a pvp game, "tanking" has never really worked out before, but Mythic is doing a marvelous job for WAr in designing tanks that work in pvp. They fit in with WARs idea of "Everyone will fight" while still protecting the fragile allies in the back.

StabbyMcGee

05-04-2007, 10:34 AM

Thinks back to the Paul interview... (And here's a *heal*, and a heal, and a heal...)

No. There won't be any strict healers in the game, and I'm frickin' happy about that.

jojomonkey

05-05-2007, 07:16 PM

I see the black orc as doing moderate damage through most of his attacks, and heavy damage with a special few. And seeing the ability "Now DAT's a Choppa" you know that they will be using "Great" (or 2H if you will) weapons at times. But at they same time, they will be able to absorb tremendous amounts of damage.

Now i think that anyone who plays a Black Orc expecting to throw on a Great weapon and instantly WTFPWN anyone they come across is just being selfish. They are wanting to do Massive damage AND have the most survivability, when as with classes such as the Choppa, you are making a decision to deal with low Survivability, but do crazy damage.

And one thing, dont rely to heavily on the TT Black Orc as your guide when you are deciding what to play. Go to the official site, and look at grab bag 13:

Q: One of the most important aspects of Warhammer Tabletop is the Champion, Banner Carrier and Musician trio. Will there be any equivalent to that in WAR? At the very minimum War-Banners?

A: As I've said before, you should try to avoid assuming that much of the gameplay style from the tabletop world is going to cross into the MMO. We are striving to keep the look, the mood, and the feel of the total Warhammer universe. Tabletop players should load up the game and say, man, this feels familiar, and this feels good. But the mechanics won't be the same, because we're designing everything for an MMO (and for a whole different set of expectations). But with that said, I've got some great tidbits from Adam AKA "Gersh," who is currently heading up the combat design team. Take it away, Gersh!

Now, i only bring that up because some people are just shrugging off intelligent arguments by saying 'NAH-UH YOU IDIOT!!!! LOOK AT THE TABLE TOP! DEE DEE DEE!'
Please dont confuse that with people drawing SOME references from the TT, just the special ones who cant make intelligent comments and resort to the aforementioned type of statements.

SwaY

05-15-2007, 01:19 AM

Why o why do people assume black orcs will have to use shields? i'm not saying this is a bad thing but it's the whole pigeon holing thing again, we've seen early beta/ late alpha with Blorcs using board and sword. THIS DOES NOT MEAN it's the only way, as somebody posted some links to skills earlier, I can honestly see blorcs from tactics being either highly defensive with a shield and highly snaring, or 2 hand wielding, better dps less snare more debuffs. As you can see from some of the tactics/ skills that have been shown, some are highly bias towards a board, while 'great choppas' or whatever it's called haults morale when using a two hander. I clearly think people are making too strong of an assumption this early on to understand how the class will truely play, I have no doubt in my mind every class in this game will be ground breaking, unlike anything we've ever seen before, I know people will compare to WoW day in day out, BUT what you have to remember is this is WAR a new title from EA Mythic who are good at this sorta thing! lets just see how it all turns out and leave the assumptions at the door. People who ASSume make an of themselves. :mrgreen:

badlad99

06-06-2007, 12:46 PM

I think the best attack for a black orc would be giving someone a wet willie I dunno maybe a demoralizer or maybe orc spit is so strong it dissolves your brain:shock:

Norick13

06-06-2007, 08:46 PM

The roll of the black orc seems to be pretty clear: Absorb dmg, protect his allies, and do some dmg/CC....Now, that being said I think that WAR is doing that in a completely new style; in terms of tanking.

Abilites that reduce dmg to allies in pvp, that knock allies out of the way and cause them to be detargeted, etc...This types of things I think will make them way, way, waaaay more than just the stereotypical "tanker" we are use to in MMOs.

Also, as long as they allow these "tanking" classes to switch to a 2 hander (if people are so inclined) and do some pretty decent dps that will also help. From the few abilities listed so far though, the whole mentality that a tank is only good in PvE is going to change drastically...ESPECIALLY if they include clipping. Then you can actually use formations of tanks to funnel people around into dps, along with other such strats.

I was contemplating rolling a Choppa or Hammerer, that is, until I saw the abilities listed for the black orc. I find chosen to be more of my style, but I am still seriously considering a black orc. To me, the abilities listed were a breath of fresh air, and I cannot wait to play a WAR "tanker" whether it be a Black Orc, Chosen, Ironbreaker, or Knight of the Blazing sun (I don't like elves ;) ).