Do dwarfs use bows?

[LiquidShaDow]

I'm refering to just bows, not crossbows. I understand that there are some difficulties involved because of their stature and shorter arms, so traditionally, it's not a dwarf-y weapon. But historically(and in fantasy), there are bows of various lengths and short bows seem to be within a length that is useable by dwarfs.

Also, there are some fantasy games that implement strength based bonuses for customised bows that are crafted for a heavier pull of the string that is generally not useable by most normal people. Could dwarfs be using something like heavy hitting short ranged shortbows?

Is such an option possible based on the TT or RP game?

[Karthos]

No they don't. Only crossbows. Though there may be older models with short bows, I doubt it.

[Bolg]

Mayhaps they did once in the past. but due to the dichtomy of the enterprising nature of dwarfs coupled with their strong adherence to tradition has led to their extensive use and development of crossbows.

Crossbows evolved from normal bows which you would have to have knowledge and familiarity with to retain the same principles and purpose of bows as standard templates for ranged weaponry and in the development of crossbows and even rifles and firearms.

So if the question is whether or not dwarfs use normal bows now? the answer is most definitely a NO. Fore the average dwarf has evolved from his ancestors of the past to innovate a more efficient ranged killing machine of the original but still pays homage to his ancestors enough to use said crossbows for their intended purpose despite the obvious innovation of firearms now prevalent in the WHF setting.

But if the question is DID they ever use a bow? Then I believe that theoretically, YES they may have used the bow at some point in their history. Though this is no where mentioned in the records of their people.

[Garthilk]

I think there is a very limited number of weapons that Dwarfs will use. Axes, Hammers, and perhaps explosives. Did I miss any?

[LiquidShaDow]

I would that their arsenal includes the bulk of the heavy headed bludgeoning arms like flails, maces and morning stars. Also to include rifles and pistols which the engineers use. I wonder will the game actually place a lot of restrictions for weapons. Taking this thread for example, would I be prevented from using a sword as a dwarf if I felt like it or a bow, by the virtue of the game mechanics, or will I be given options to wage war as I please?


Fore the average dwarf has evolved from his ancestors of the past to innovate a more efficient ranged killing machine of the original but still pays homage to his ancestors enough to use said crossbows for their intended purpose despite the obvious innovation of firearms now prevalent in the WHF setting.
I think efficient range killing machine, perhaps, not the best rationale for not using bows. A crossbow takes considerable loading time, especially the heavy onces that has some mechanical winch parts which require winding to pull the string back. In which a bow user would have fired off more than a couple more shots.

So in terms of a short range combat, a bow user would be able to shoot off a few arrows as opposed to a crossbow user who would proabably fire off a bolt before switching to a melee for the close in. Makes sense?

[Kazgut]

Garth has it pretty much covered here: Axes, Hammers, Explosives and maybe a crossbow or something, defiantly loads of guns for the engineers aswell.

[Snorri]

I think there is a very limited number of weapons that Dwarfs will use. Axes, Hammers, and perhaps explosives. Did I miss any?

No...no... I think you covered all of them... :D

Dwarfs tend to use, axes, hammers, bigger axes, bigger hammers, guns, explosives, bigger explosives, crossbows, even bigger axes and even bigger hammers.
Oh yes and gigantic explosives.

:)

[The_Pilgrim]

A Bow? This is heresy! O.O A dwarf would prefer to fight a black orc with his own bar hands even if he had the chance to slay this very orc from range with a , punny, bow made of elven wood.

[Bloosquig]

No...no... I think you covered all of them... :D

Dwarfs tend to use, axes, hammers, bigger axes, bigger hammers, guns, explosives, bigger explosives, crossbows, even bigger axes and even bigger hammers.
Oh yes and gigantic explosives.

:)


Hmm I think you missed the even bigger and gigantic crossbows Snorri. ;)

[LiquidShaDow]

A Bow? This is heresy! O.O A dwarf would prefer to fight a black orc with his own bar hands even if he had the chance to slay this very orc from range with a , punny, bow made of elven wood.Well, not all bows are elven. ;)

[Gartagueul]

Hmm I think you missed the even bigger and gigantic crossbows Snorri. ;)
Name for that is Balista :)

[Bolg]

I think efficient range killing machine, perhaps, not the best rationale for not using bows. A crossbow takes considerable loading time, especially the heavy onces that has some mechanical winch parts which require winding to pull the string back. In which a bow user would have fired off more than a couple more shots.

So in terms of a short range combat, a bow user would be able to shoot off a few arrows as opposed to a crossbow user who would proabably fire off a bolt before switching to a melee for the close in. Makes sense?

I think in answer to your question, yes Mythic will allow you to use bows and swords and wage war as you please. There is certainly precedent for it in the fluffs and there really isn't any good reason not to allow it in WAR.

OTOH with regards to the question of whether or not the crossbow is more effective, in GW sensibilities I think they allowed the dwarfs to use crossbows simply because it was more dwarfish and it kinda flew in the face of conventional wisdom not to use it at the same time. Kinda like a question of drawing enough inspiration from Tolkien. Bows are for elfy woodsy type people, while dwarfs dont use bows because they dont trust anything without a goodly amount of iron in it. It's not dwarfy enough. I guess it was as simple as that.

There are certainly many precedents for dwarfs to use crossbows. Maybe the elves made it and influenced the wide spread use of it and the dwarfs not wanting to seem like complete copycats decided to make their own version of bows (crossbows).

Maybe they decided to innovate a bow that they can rely upon with common dwarfishness. A bow might be considered flimsy to a dwarf because its made of simple wood, twine and animal hide. Flilmsy and flighty like an elf, not enduring and stoic like a dwarf. Certainly bows are easily made compared to crossbows, but the corssbows are more long-lasting due in part to metal mechanical parts. Besides the dwarfs are not known for their woodwork which they believe is a trade that their hated rivals the elves are more known for. Wood is hard to come by in the mountainuos regions of the dwarfs homelands. So something a little more practical and enduring is what they would prefer to a bow that might not last as long.

And in terms of efficiency. The bow is certainly more efficient at delivering a larger payload at an even greater distance (i.e. longbows, which the dwarfs cannot use for obvious reasons). But in terms of killing power, the crossbow makes a more solid impact, able to penetrate armor better than ordinary bows, hence more deadly. A bow needs accuracy to be effective, while a crossbow need not be accurate, and to a practical dwarf something that gets the job done faster is worth more in their book. So it's more a question of quantity over quality, in a sense.

Historically, the crossbow was a more efficient ranged weapon taught to peasant soldiers, because all you needed to do was point, fire, crank the string back, reload and fire with little skill invovled. Using Bows needed much more practice (accuracy, skill and natural perfect eyesight), maintainance(keeping the string dry, the bow oiled and wrapped in animal hides to prevent it from warping in cold wet weather), not to mention it was nigh impossible to hide and carry effectively compared to a crossbow. Anyone who has used a bow knows that it's easier said than done.

Besides in the world of the dwarfs where tunnel warfare is their meat and drink, the accuracy needed to field bows and the distance afforded by such weapons are made pointless in the close confines and dark spaces of the dwarfs homes. Only with the superior vision of elves would one even consider using a bow in a dwarfs tunnels.

Besides the dwarf are slow but resolute. They are not mobile and agile like the elves who can continue to lay a field of supressive fire on a foe for many leagues apart and maintain that distance. The dwarfs being slow would prefer that their enemies come face to face to them, and while their enemy comes close enough they will use whatever is necessary to kill their foes in a very dwarfish manner. Practicality over finnesse, power over accuracy, these are the hallmarks of the dwarf way of war I think.

So in conclusion, will a dwarf use a bow? If it would save his life, he would, but under normal circumstances, he'd prefer something more reliable, that he's sure won't break under his or her stout muscular fingers.

[LiquidShaDow]

Very good points you brought up there Bolg. While I on one hand agree with you the points you have presented and feel likewise in spirit, I also do hope that there is no restrictive mechanism in the game to force players to do so. :mrgreen:

Your summary line to it all
It's not dwarfy enough. I guess it was as simple as that
Straight to the point.

[Bolg]

Very good points you brought up there Bolg. While I on one hand agree with you the points you have presented and feel likewise in spirit, I also do hope that there is no restrictive mechanism in the game to force players to do so. :mrgreen:


I agree. I wanna be a Slayer with a Two handed Sword.

Or double Warhammers!

Who's also good with a crossbow..... :wink:

YEEEEAAAALLLLGH!!! :mrgreen:

[Wulfhelm der Rote]

Hmm...Wasnt there a mention about weaopns/armor being race-specific? Because if thats the case I see a good chance for those unfitting weapons not to be included.
Maybe youll just get a crossbow with the same stats instead of a bow as a quest reward for example..

[Bolg]

Hmm...Wasnt there a mention about weaopns/armor being race-specific? Because if thats the case I see a good chance for those unfitting weapons not to be included.
Maybe youll just get a crossbow with the same stats instead of a bow as a quest reward for example..

That could work. Although crossbows and bows are virtually general in terms of usage non-race specific that almost anyone anywhere in the WH universe has fielded crossbows in one point, shape or form. Human armies of the Empire, Brettonia and Chaos (despite their obvious lack of missle units) Skaven, Dwarfs, MAybe even High Elves,(but never Wood Elves I think). So we may be seeing more people in game, not just Empire and High Elf players, use bows and/or crossbows.

[Grimr]

I think there is a very limited number of weapons that Dwarfs will use. Axes, Hammers, and perhaps explosives. Did I miss any?

Short swords, daggers, but the ones you stated are most common. I do see clearly that besides a aze and shield a extra sword on your side is handy...

[Warfield]

I would imagine that Dwarf ancestors, after meeting the high elves, did use short bows for a while until crossbows were invented. Bows would be one of those "old-fashioned" things that did in fact need an upgrade (improving on Elven technology...)

Of course, you now have guns. Some Longbeards would argue that crossbows did not need an upgrade and that the black-powder firearms simply pollute the fresh mountain air. That is the real debate now, not whether or not Dwarves use bows. Bows are so "four centuries ago"...

[Wulfhelm der Rote]

Since the Dwarfs first came to the Worlds Edge Mountains the crossbow has ever been their ranged weapon of choice. It will easily outrange the puny bows of the Goblins and is powerful enough to drop even a Black Orc in his tracks. In more recent times, devotees of the handgun have grown in numbers to the extent that the crossbow is no longer entirely the dominant weapon. The crossbow will never disappear entirely though. The Quarrellers that remain are a stubborn bunch, preferring to trust their own estimates of range and wind than rely on a new-fangled sight. If nothing else, many of them begrudge the cost of powder when a bit of elbow grease will propel a quarrel as far as a bullet.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/dwarfs/miniature-gallery/5/

:)

[Snorri]

Dwarfs use crossbows, as far as I have always been aware.
As time went on, most switched to guns.

Short bows may or may not have been used. Dwarfs obviously couldnt use long bows and short bows are not nearly as powerful, and the dwrafs hands are not exactly small and elegant for firing smal bows. I would not be supprised if they never touched the things. But instead invented things to counter it.

[Callebaut]

Dwarves are a very technologically savvy race.

Bows are too simple for them. If they are FORCED to be out of the melee, they will be using as high tech stuff as they can. They hate the elves, why would they emulate them?

Calle

[LiquidShaDow]

Dwarves are a very technologically savvy race.

Bows are too simple for them. If they are FORCED to be out of the melee, they will be using as high tech stuff as they can. They hate the elves, why would they emulate them?

Calle
I agree with them being technologically savvy. However, I don't feel so with regards to how they feel regarding simplicity. Axes and hammers are very simple weapons. Their origins are pre-historic in the real world.

[Callebaut]

They're immersed in tradition though. I guess that's the dwarves' other passion, technology + the past. So, you have a bunch of traditional warriors. Then you have the ones who aren't on the front lines. Axes and Hammers aren't all that practical back there. So then you go high tech.

I guess that's what I mean. I'm not that great of putting my mind on paper/screens.

Calle

[GreyWarlord]

Good points Bolg, but what makes you think that crossbows belong in the quantity category intead of quality? Let's compare: it takes time and craftsmanship to produce a decent crossbow, while a bow is a supple stick with sinew or intestine as a string. Many will increase the complexity of a bow with additional layers of material, producing laminated, backed, composite, and compound bows, but it it still a crude thing. Crossbows are something you can count on. They may take a while to make, but you can be sure the bolt goes where you send it. I think the dwarfs are very quality oriented, it's why they take such care as craftsmen. Can you really think that bows have any strength other than mass production?

[GreyWarlord]

Dwarfs obviously couldnt use long bows and short bows are not nearly as powerful, and the dwrafs hands are not exactly small and elegant for firing smal bows.

The Turks invented a compound bow several hundred years ago 2.5 feet across when strung that could match a Welsh longbow for range and accuracy. The Turks also could use it from horseback, making it the most effective bow until modern synthetic upstarts.

[Bolg]

Good points Bolg, but what makes you think that crossbows belong in the quantity category intead of quality? Let's compare: it takes time and craftsmanship to produce a decent crossbow, while a bow is a supple stick with sinew or intestine as a string. Many will increase the complexity of a bow with additional layers of material, producing laminated, backed, composite, and compound bows, but it it still a crude thing. Crossbows are something you can count on. They may take a while to make, but you can be sure the bolt goes where you send it. I think the dwarfs are very quality oriented, it's why they take such care as craftsmen. Can you really think that bows have any strength other than mass production?

I dont believe I said that crossbows=quantity. I posted corssbows = quality. As evidenced in my post here...

Maybe they decided to innovate a bow that they can rely upon with common dwarfishness. A bow might be considered flimsy to a dwarf because its made of simple wood, twine and animal hide. Flilmsy and flighty like an elf, not enduring and stoic like a dwarf. Certainly bows are easily made compared to crossbows, but the corssbows are more long-lasting due in part to metal mechanical parts. Besides the dwarfs are not known for their woodwork which they believe is a trade that their hated rivals the elves are more known for. Wood is hard to come by in the mountainuos regions of the dwarfs homelands. So something a little more practical and enduring is what they would prefer to a bow that might not last as long.

This...

And in terms of efficiency. The bow is certainly more efficient at delivering a larger payload at an even greater distance (i.e. longbows, which the dwarfs cannot use for obvious reasons). But in terms of killing power, the crossbow makes a more solid impact, able to penetrate armor better than ordinary bows, hence more deadly. A bow needs accuracy to be effective, while a crossbow need not be accurate, and to a practical dwarf something that gets the job done faster is worth more in their book. So it's more a question of quantity over quality, in a sense.

was a response I made to a discussion and a question that I had with a poster above me who asked this question...

I think efficient range killing machine, perhaps, not the best rationale for not using bows. A crossbow takes considerable loading time, especially the heavy onces that has some mechanical winch parts which require winding to pull the string back. In which a bow user would have fired off more than a couple more shots.

So in terms of a short range combat, a bow user would be able to shoot off a few arrows as opposed to a crossbow user who would proabably fire off a bolt before switching to a melee for the close in. Makes sense?

Who seemed to favor bows in an terms of efficiency of payload rather than efficiency of killing power and durability of crossbows.

Did that clarify things a bit?

[GreyWarlord]

Yeah, I understand you now.

[Grimsgaze]

Ye want a ranged weapon?
What's wrong with hacking a gobbi's head off and throwing it at his fellow snotbuckets?

Besides, why use a twig and some twine when ye can stuff a big metal tube full of boom-boom powder, drop in a ball of lead and set fire to it?

Sharp sticks out, metal balls in!

"Typical humans. All the sturdy prescious metals in the world and they make things out of sand!" he said, discarding the glass and picking up his own battered metal tankard.
- Gruggin "Twobeards" Grimsgaze, passing comment to his fellows in the home of rich Altdorf merchant Eric Von Casteline.

[Timanous]

Dwarfs use guns or crossbows

[Bolg]

Dwarfs use guns or crossbows

they use both.

[Ken]

they use both.

Yea dwarfs are so hardcore, they use bows and guns AT THE SAME TIME.

Dwarfs are the #1 race on Order I'd play.

[Ilairon]

I'd doubt that dwarfs would have much use for bows, aside from the crossbow, certainly in the current era; indeed the defining question for a dwarf now would be gun or crossbow, not bow or crossbow. That said, I think a dwarf would use a bow if it was his best option, and in the past I suppose short bows might have been their best option until the innovation of the crossbow.

Mind, repeater crossbows are still the best you silly stunties :rolleyes:

[Ruriktheoneeye]

As far as the histories are concerned i do not remember a mention if dwarves using bows. Before crossbows the majority probably used thrown axes or hammers. Now upon seeing elven technology (bow) an inventive dwarf probably took it to the next level and created the cross bow shorter range straighter flight. Realistically dwarves dont want to be at range for long anyway.


As far as models for the TT are concerned im fairly certain there were a few in the dark days of yore that had short bows. They were probably the guys trying to invent the crossbow and were snickered at by their clanmates.

[Rurik]

Not sure if it has been mentioned but, Thorin used a bow in The Hobbit - and he was an expert shot.

Also, recurve bows, like those used by the Mongols, are excellent for people of smaller stature - ideal for dwarves. I actually like the image of dwarves using bows.

PS - Snorri mentioned short bows not being as powerful as longbows - this really depends on the material of the bow. A recurve bow made of composite materials (horn, fibers, glue etc) has both excellent range and penetration - and is compact enough for a mounted archer to use.

"Asian bows, such as the Mongol bow and especially the Turkish bow had the longest range for ranged weapons until the invention of the modern breach-loading firearms in the early 20th Century[4]. Estimates for the Mongol bow give it a draw force lesser than the English longbow-Warbow (90-180 lbs / 41-81 kg and range of 250 yards / 225 m) of about 100 to 160 lbs (45 to 70 kg) and a range of 320 to 350 yards (290 to 320 m) or more.[5] A more contemporary review by Hildinger suggests that it was only accurate at up to 80 yards (75 m) when shot from horseback, but "shooting in arcade" (at 45 degrees) allowed for much greater ranges.[6]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_bow

[Warfield]

The latest Dwarf armies supplement book indicates that Dwarfs have preferred crossbows as their ranged weapon of choice ever since they first came to the World's Edge Mountains. The crossbows have better range than goblin (short?) bows and are powerful enough to drop a black orc in its tracks (presumably with a well-placed shot - I'd say throat if I were to guess...)

Still, this citation doesn't really eliminate the use of bows, but it would be a pretty daft Dwarf (and definately one in the minority) who would use a bow over a crossbow.

[Blitz]

Ah used a bow once...but not since Ah gave up playin' th' fiddle.

[Doom]

Any dwarf that uses a bow is an elf.I know some may have used it in the past but...no!

[versuvius]

hm i dunno...i designed a nice metal bow. solid handle and solid arms. the shaft (sntanard bows have a wood one) is 3 pieces. The metal arms are attached to the grip with very strong springs (which allows it to fire arrows) and..well thats it. but no elf would be able to even string it!

[sk8ingdom]

Whatever kills bad guys the best.

[versuvius]

organ gun!!

[Snorri]

Dwarf's use whatever they must in any given situation.
Dwarfs could very well use the following.


Manacles and Chains
Tankards
Broken Weapon Hafts
Their own hard-knuckled fists.
Rocks
Arrows as make-shift stabbing weapons
Shelving
Barrels
Easy-to-throw animals
Enemy limbs
Solid Plate Boots
Stonebread
Orc Skulls
Wagon Wheels
Tables
Well-bludgeoned enemies, usually goblins/skaven held at arms length.
Pots
Broken manling swords
Grating
Ore
Mine Carts
Torches
Hunks of debris
Logs
Nearby rotting carcasses
Tent Pegs
Climbing Pegs
Rope - strangling.
Shovels
Wooden Legs
Cannon Balls
Ramrods
Spare organ gun parts
Spears
Daggers
Their heads.
Their enemy's head.


The reason being; although they prefer:
Guns, Crossbows, Axes, Hammers, and Mining Picks.

They won't hesitate to use a bow if it is the only weapon at hand - or if it is best suited for the situation. If a dwarf found a bow and came to the conclusion that he'd fell more of the invading greenskins if he made use of it - then he'd bloody use it.

Therefore it is likely that a dwarf has used some form of unconventional weaponry at some stage in their life. And it is likely that, although it is not generally a favored weapon of theirs, to have used bows in some orc-ridden pass or valley in the middle of nowhere.

Come to think of it, tankards probably are not too unconventional for dwarfs in bar-room brawls...

[versuvius]

you forgot burning ale! its not likley but i sure value myself over ale!

[Ruriktheoneeye]

! Beardling yed get clipped if ye burnt ale. If ye wracked yer brain and thats the only thing yer self can come up with go back to the drawin board!

[versuvius]

hey! iv seen the brandy being uses as a flame weapon! our ale is a hundered more times as volitile! we could harness this into the most feared power in the old world!!!!!!!

[Snorri]

Aye...
But what a waste of perfectly good ale!

[versuvius]

could we get the engineers guild to make some really good explosive beer...that tasted bad, i coudnt persuade emt o do anything after that workshop went utterly kablash with the students in

[Kulgur]

BAD TASTIN ALE? That's about as useful as an elf down a mine!

[versuvius]

correct! but it would encourage you to blow it up

[Urgloc_Lifebane]

hmm, burnin' ale... ye reckon we could drink it after we used it? afta all, nae sense lettin' it go ter waste, am ah right?

[versuvius]

no, on account of it being, errr, blown up

[Snorri]

BAD TASTIN ALE? That's about as useful as an elf down a mine!

Certainly made me chortle - have a tankard.

If we cannae drink it, what's the point?
Blowing up ale... ye really are insane Verv! ;)

[versuvius]

*blushes* well i was using my half brain :D

[Kulgur]

*gratefully accepts the tankard*

"Thank ye kindly"

*downs tankard*

"If ye're gonnae blow somethin' up ye've got black powder fer it! That's what it's FOR! Blowin' up good ale, I dunno, that's about smart as tryin ter dig a mine in water!"

[Scrub]

No...no... I think you covered all of them... :D

Dwarfs tend to use, axes, hammers, bigger axes, bigger hammers, guns, explosives, bigger explosives, crossbows, even bigger axes and even bigger hammers.
Oh yes and gigantic explosives.

:)
You forgot to mention humongous explosives.

Oh, and booze. Nothing gets the job done like a drunk dwarf with a lot of explosives in a drunken rage.

[Maxmus]

they just belong to blackpowder (handgun : Thunderers)
or some crossbow to choose.

[versuvius]

that has been established...read these things before yeh post!

[The Grudgebearer]

I dont use bows i use Axes and Hammers to get the job done

[Stephen]

I'm refering to just bows, not crossbows. I understand that there are some difficulties involved because of their stature and shorter arms, so traditionally, it's not a dwarf-y weapon. But historically(and in fantasy), there are bows of various lengths and short bows seem to be within a length that is useable by dwarfs.

Also, there are some fantasy games that implement strength based bonuses for customised bows that are crafted for a heavier pull of the string that is generally not useable by most normal people. Could dwarfs be using something like heavy hitting short ranged shortbows?

Is such an option possible based on the TT or RP game?

Bows and crossbows, heck, even rifles and other ranged contraptions are cowardly weapons!

Real warriors use axes and hammers!

[versuvius]

what did ye say about my blunderbus!

[Stephen]

I don't know about you comrade but killin' yer opponent from forty yards isn't my idea of bravery!

[versuvius]

well its either get used to having some technological aid or die. Your choice...bloody daft skruff

[Stephen]

You do have a point there, mate, even though I hate to admit it - we need those guns an' cannons.