Why GOBLINshaman, and no Ork :(

[Musax]

So people, discuss why there arent Orcshamans anymore :(
I was looking forward to playing one, and now it looks like ill have to go with the little Goblin, and every Orc is going to treat me like :P

At least thats whats orks are supposed to do with goblins *G*

[Drace]

From what I've heard, there aren't going to be any Orc shamans, but Icould easily be wrong.

But at the sametime, there is concept art, wallpapers and screenshots with orc Shamans, so it might still be in the air.

[Karigaut]

From what I've heard, there aren't going to be any Orc shamans, but Icould easily be wrong.

But at the sametime, there is concept art, wallpapers and screenshots with orc Shamans, so it might still be in the air.

These screenshots are old, and the developers have said that they will NOT (at this point at least) have OrK shamans, only goblin shamans.

[Musax]

yeah, thats my last information *G*

and the reason why i made this whinehtread :P

I want to find fellow orcshaman fanboys, who will start an uproar so loud mythic cant ignore it :P

well i guess ill have to be satisfied just to find some fellowers to share the pain :)

[Y'vess]

They had to chose goblin or Orc for the shaman class.....given Orcs are better known for their survivability and melee ferocity it would seem a better option to give the more cunning and more frail goblins the caster ability

[Rawr]

it only seems right that goblins will be the caster class because of their small size and cunning minds.. although there is still a lot of time before the release. they might put ork shamans in but i doubt it.

[miber]

I'm a big fan of the idea adding of Orc Shamans and Goblin Berserkers. Both Goblins and Orcs are known to have Shamans, and both have melee/ranged fighters.

Also, a mere two careers per race seems too low. A 3/1 1/3 split sounds much nicer, and still gives each race a unique career that the other couldn't possibly fit (Black Orcs are way to strong and powerful for Goblins - and they're, well, Orcs - and Goblins seem to deal with Squigs much more than Orcs, and an Orc would be too large to be swallowed whole by one).

[Y'vess]

There are 4 classes per race, greenskins counts as a race for this purpose since they all start in the same location and they will face off against dwarfs with 4 classes. Mythic could have simply chosen goblins OR Orcs exclusively but they didn't.

If you start adding extra classes to goblins and Orcs then why not add extra classes to Dwarfs or Empire....or High Elves or Dark elves....if we are gonna do that why can't we add all the patron classes to chaos.....if we can do that why arn't Skaven and Woodelves in why no Bretonians.....why arn't they making the game twice as big why why why?

Time/Balance

[checkthis5000]

I'm a big fan of the idea adding of Orc Shamans and Goblin Berserkers. Both Goblins and Orcs are known to have Shamans, and both have melee/ranged fighters.

Also, a mere two careers per race seems too low. A 3/1 1/3 split sounds much nicer, and still gives each race a unique career that the other couldn't possibly fit (Black Orcs are way to strong and powerful for Goblins - and they're, well, Orcs - and Goblins seem to deal with Squigs much more than Orcs, and an Orc would be too large to be swallowed whole by one).

I agree with this. I've always thought they should have 2 common and 2 unique. Black Orc and Goblin Squig herder being the uniqe and the Berserker and Shaman being the common. I just think it would make the army more flexible and not force people to play a goblin if they wanted an orc or vice versa.

EDIT: To Y'vess: If they made the shaman and berserker able to be played by both goblin and orc I dont think that would be adding classes, it would still be 4 classes for the orc and goblin army. There would just be a little more flexibility.

[Y'vess]

EDIT: To Y'vess: If they made the shaman and berserker able to be played by both goblin and orc I dont think that would be adding classes, it would still be 4 classes for the orc and goblin army. There would just be a little more flexibility.

I doubt goblins and greenskins have the same stats therfore making a class available to different races would be unbalancing it.

[Hyrus]

Orcs could take a few more hits, goblins could cast a few more bolts. I don't see an imbalance.

A Highlander in Daoc could be a scout just as well as a Saracen. Problem there was that Dexterity and Constitution were not equally balanced statistics in terms of measuring how much they effected a fight.

[Ralzar]

I doubt goblins and greenskins have the same stats therfore making a class available to different races would be unbalancing it.


Stats will probably be based on class, not race. Since the greenksin army is the only place where this problem would ever matter.

[Timanous]

No matter you will all die one way or another :evil:

[Grork BoneChompa]

To add on to Y'vess' Time and stuff they also would have nothin to sell expansion packs or updates or what ever ya know. They would use up all there money makin ideas too fast.

[Markio]

The fact of the matter is a Goblin Shaman is weaker than an Orc Shaman. If both were included there would be no incentive to play as a Goblin Shaman unless they put a lot of work into balancing it... but that wouldn't work. Everyone knows a Goblin Shaman is weaker than an Orc Shaman, therefore balancing them would be breaking the IP. Anyway, I think it works okay, you get to play as a Goblin Shaman where the big bad Orc Shamans will most likely be important NPCs.

[miber]

The fact of the matter is a Goblin Shaman is weaker than an Orc Shaman. If both were included there would be no incentive to play as a Goblin Shaman unless they put a lot of work into balancing it...You could just have it so that the Orc has slightly more HP and does slightly more melee damage, while the Goblin is slightly better at casting and slightly better at dodging attacks. I doubt the two are going to be drastically different - or much more different than a DAoC Troll Shaman and a DAoC Kobold Shaman (and people certainly played both of them).

[Ken]

Or to simplify it even further.

Goblins are more pew pew.
Orcs are more WAAGH!

[notit]

I think 'dem gobbos look more for da part.

[Grork BoneChompa]

We need goblin shamans cause if there were none then we would have no goobos to abuse at a whim! :twisted:

[suncrafter]

Orcs could take a few more hits, goblins could cast a few more bolts. I don't see an imbalance.


Well said! I don't see what the big deal is either.

[Ruinx]

They had to chose goblin or Orc for the shaman class.

No, that's false. They could have chosen both. No-one had a gun to their heads, and the lore in fact supports both. They CHOSE to have Goblin Shamans only for various reasons, including, I'm sure, the fact that having only one race be Shamans means it'll be a lot easier on the ol' art department.

To say "had" to though is simply a lie, whether you agree with the choice or not.

Miber - Well precisely. Paul implied that they are kind of "wrapping up" the Greenskins to some extent, soon, though, so I sadly doubt it will change.

[Vanhel]

Or to simplify it even further.

Goblins are more pew pew.
Orcs are more WAAGH!

Most definitely. :D

[Y'vess]

No, that's false. They could have chosen both. No-one had a gun to their heads, and the lore in fact supports both. They CHOSE to have Goblin Shamans only for various reasons, including, I'm sure, the fact that having only one race be Shamans means it'll be a lot easier on the ol' art department.

To say "had" to though is simply a lie, whether you agree with the choice or not.

What a ridiculous argument.... you just agreed with me and told me I was wrong in the same paragraph they had to chose 4 playable classes if you include Orc Shaman aswell as Goblin Shaman thats 5 playable classes you can't just copy and paste the goblin shaman code onto an orc model and say Job done theres a big difference between doing that for genders and doing it for races therfore they had to make a choice give the shaman to the goblins or give the shaman to the orcs and come up with another class for the goblins. Thats exactly what they did and thats exactly what I said.

[Kaikai]

They had to chose goblin or Orc for the shaman class.....given Orcs are better known for their survivability and melee ferocity it would seem a better option to give the more cunning and more frail goblins the caster ability

ork shamans exist in the wargame,

i dont think they 'had' to choose one or the other.

greenskins have two races in them, gobbo and orc, while other groups such as chaos, human and the rest i bet have male and female.

i think spesfic sex based classes, while a couple make sence, shouldent be the rule.
i cant think of many successfull games that force your class choice into your sex choice as well.
most of the ones i see as asian based and rather poor quality.

black orks makesence, but two goblin spesfic classes? no i dont like that,
i plan to play goblins anyway, but i would rather see a bunch of orcs acting as shamans too.

[Kaikai]

What a ridiculous argument.... you just agreed with me and told me I was wrong in the same paragraph they had to chose 4 playable classes if you include Orc Shaman aswell as Goblin Shaman thats 5 playable classes you can't just copy and paste the goblin shaman code onto an orc model and say Job done theres a big difference between doing that for genders and doing it for races therfore they had to make a choice give the shaman to the goblins or give the shaman to the orcs and come up with another class for the goblins. Thats exactly what they did and thats exactly what I said.


uhhm sorry to double post but..
your thinking too rigidly, 'Change' the class name to Shaman, and let the player choose if he wants to be orc or goblin, just like a player would choose what sex they play

[Kazgut]

Agreed, Orc shamans are a shame for not being in, I would have played one if they were as I just love orc shamans. I don't see imbalance between races and genders I mean they are still the same race, they just have 2 races so what? I mean with this line of thinking we would have 2 dwarf classes for males and 2 for women it just doesn't make sense. Sure Black Orcs wouldn't make sense as a goblin class (duh) same goes for squig herders, but Berserkers (or whatever lame name they are being called now) work for both you just need to make orcs get more out of the melee part of berserkers while goblins get more out of the ranging part of berserkers).

Its not so hard to balance, sure art department would have to make more clothes etc, but I don't think this should be a reason for them to not make orc shamans and goblin berserker/ironclaw/faceplanter.

[Thorval]

Orcs are too stupid to be shamans. They are purely brutish oafs that wield melee weapons.

[CrusherDestroyer]

Orcs are too stupid to be shamans. They are purely brutish oafs that wield melee weapons.

Wrong, try again.

[Kaikai]

Orcs are too stupid to be shamans. They are purely brutish oafs that wield melee weapons.

as crusher said, thats a missconception, if they ahv the cunning and smarts to lead armies and pull off alot of nasty tactics, then some of them are capible of pulling off magic.
especialy warrgh magic which is supposed to be just all about mob mentality manifest as huge explosions of magic

[sm|te]

Orcs are too stupid to be shamans. They are purely brutish oafs that wield melee weapons.

Yeah this isn't WoW

[Chryso]

Whatever they do, i ll play a gobelin shaman.
Small and nasty, just my opposite :) (can't say cunning since i am :) )

Best regards,
Chryso

[Ishamal]

Orcs are too stupid to be shamans. They are purely brutish oafs that wield melee weapons.

look at the TT game, one of the Orc/Gob special chars is an Orcish shaman...

[Fingoniel]

I guess it's down to the "must look like what you are" - in daoc you get lurikeen heroes... they're still short dudes but when they hit you it _hurts_... doesn't fit with the short dude thing.

Orc shamans look very different to goblin shamans (there's the whole size issue) and given they're fairly different stat/abilitywise in the tabletop game they'd also have to be different in WAR. Big shaman dude shouldn't be doing the same stuff as little shaman dude.

Just making an orc shaman a goblin shaman with a bit more strength and a bit less casting wouldn't be enough and any changes beyond that would mean it's another class in effect, and it's 4 classes per race for release.

[Ken]

I guess it's down to the "must look like what you are" - in daoc you get lurikeen heroes... they're still short dudes but when they hit you it _hurts_... doesn't fit with the short dude thing.

Orc shamans look very different to goblin shamans (there's the whole size issue) and given they're fairly different stat/abilitywise in the tabletop game they'd also have to be different in WAR. Big shaman dude shouldn't be doing the same stuff as little shaman dude.

Just making an orc shaman a goblin shaman with a bit more strength and a bit less casting wouldn't be enough and any changes beyond that would mean it's another class in effect, and it's 4 classes per race for release.

But fing! Why can't Mythic just let us do whatever we want?!?!?! WHAT IS THEIR PROBLEM ZOMG WHY CAN'T THEY LET ME DO WHAT I WANT WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY!!!!!!

Jokes aside. I would like it if they could. Like I've said before. But I understand if they won't.
So for everyone who's still whining...

Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it! :D

Because on release. You'll be a little disheartened if your mind was set on Orc Shaman or Goblin Ironclaw/Berserker/Battler/Whatever, but I'm SURE you'll get over it in time.

I was set on playing Goblin Battler :( So it's not like I wasn't in the same boat. I just had the ability to leave the boat. If they put it back in, I'll be BACK IN ZE BOAT!

[dwarfadin]

yeah, thats my last information *G*

and the reason why i made this whinehtread :P

I want to find fellow orcshaman fanboys, who will start an uproar so loud mythic cant ignore it :P

well i guess ill have to be satisfied just to find some fellowers to share the pain :)

hehe yes i share the pain fellow orc shaman ill be glad to help

[Kaikai]

But fing! Why can't Mythic just let us do whatever we want?!?!?! WHAT IS THEIR PROBLEM ZOMG WHY CAN'T THEY LET ME DO WHAT I WANT WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY!!!!!!

Jokes aside. I would like it if they could. Like I've said before. But I understand if they won't.
So for everyone who's still whining...

Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it! :D

Because on release. You'll be a little disheartened if your mind was set on Orc Shaman or Goblin Ironclaw/Berserker/Battler/Whatever, but I'm SURE you'll get over it in time.

I was set on playing Goblin Battler :( So it's not like I wasn't in the same boat. I just had the ability to leave the boat. If they put it back in, I'll be BACK IN ZE BOAT!

mythic don't know what people want unless people express their opinions.
you may be happy with the direction of War, however it goes, some people might feel differently.
i don't think that really entitles you to try and quash other peoples opinions because they dont agree with your current stance on the topic.
were free to keep saying that were not too happy with no gobbo berserkers and orc shamans, trying to tell us to get over it isnt really the thing to do.
you can allways ignore us, after all.

Just making an orc shaman a goblin shaman with a bit more strength and a bit less casting wouldn't be enough and any changes beyond that would mean it's another class in effect, and it's 4 classes per race for release.

it might not make EVERYONE happy, but it would make alot more people happy to be honist.
i dont think its nessicary AT ALL to change the stats of the shaman class for an orc or shaman.
i mean when people see a mage, they expect them to be weaker than a warrior.
you play humans, a human warrior is allways stronger than a mage, why can a human get away with that image and orcs cant?
i think orcs can be shamans too and they dont need the class changing.

some very hardcore people might object, but they would rather have orc and shamans than just gobbos, even if they work exactly the same way.

theres no need to make the orcshaman an 'extra' class, people will accept that because its a mage, that its weaker than a warrior.
it works that way in EVERY other mmorpg, what makes you think it should be differnt for this one spesfic race in this upcoming mmorpg.

plus, you dont know how well a shamn can do in melee, for all you know, they might eb more melee based than catsers in other games.

[Trolls]

Waaargh say yes to Orc Shaman... (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/screenshots/full/may_05_09.jpg) the model looks evil.

[j42]

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/conceptArt/full/CA_aug2006_03.jpg
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/conceptArt/full/CA_aug2006_02.jpg

is that shaman armor aswell or?

cheerio

[Bolg]

I will say this again...I dont believe that we will only have Orc shamans, since the devs mentioned that only one class of either orcs or gobbos will not be accessible to either race. If they changed it so that we will only have two different starting classes for both orcs and gobbos, then someone, Miber preferably, please correct me.

We've already seen the Gobbo Shaman and the Gobbo Squig Herder.

We've heard that Orcs can't be Squig Herder's and can't be Shamans, so unless one or the other isn't true I'd like to believe that we will be able to see Orc shamans in the game, because there is definitely proof in the fluff/lore to support the existence of a class of Orc shamans rather than squig herders.

Plus it would be pretty lame IMNSHO that orcs and gobbos can only choose two starting classes instead of the three mentioned earlier.

That is all.

[Dysfinn]

Y'vess said it at the beginning of this thread.. but...

Orcs and goblins are practically two races, so giving them both shamans and squigherders would be unbalanced since they are considered one race together (4 classes) but if you guys want it your way, the Greenskin faction would have 6 classes. Then every other faction would have to get 2 extra classes, and so on.

So, therefore, it's easier to give every Faction 4 classes.

[Archon]

I dont believe there are orc shamans on the TT game, so they shouldnt be in here, I am fine with goblins being shamans.

[Bolg]

I dont believe there are orc shamans on the TT game, so they shouldnt be in here, I am fine with goblins being shamans.

I'm sorry but, Games-Workshop begs to differ as evidenced here...


http://uk.games-workshop.com/orcsandgoblins/miniature-gallery/4/

Edit: http://uk.games-workshop.com/orcsandgoblins/miniature%2Dgallery/1/

[Bolg]

Orcs and goblins are practically two races, so giving them both shamans and squigherders would be unbalanced since they are considered one race together (4 classes) but if you guys want it your way, the Greenskin faction would have 6 classes. Then every other faction would have to get 2 extra classes, and so on.

I dont think so, indeed greenskins will have you choose between Orcs or Goblins instead of male or female toon, but that is more a question of fluff rather than game mechanics. And male or female of those other factions can choose to be one of four starting classes. The Greenskins for fluff/lore continuity's sake chose to have Orcs and Goblins to choose from, because of fluff saying they don't have any females. And its entirely possible to have Orc Shamans as well as goblin shamans according to the fluff. Squig Herder's I'm under the impression were always a goblin undertaking and nothing an Orc would concern himself with according to fluff. Same goes for the Black Orcs being exclusively Orc.

So, therefore, it's easier to give every Faction 4 classes.

So why not? Black Orc = Orcs only Squig Herder = Goblins only
Ironclaw/Berserker = Orcs and Gobbos
Shamans = Orcs and Gobbos

That's 3 classes for Orcs and Gobbos respectively and 4 for the whole faction. I don't see why this can't be viable?

[Trolls]

in the TT there are Orc shaman; 1 (http://www.hillcity-comics.com/role_play/gw/gw8541h.htm), 2 (http://www.hillcity-comics.com/role_play/gw/whf8542f.htm)

Orcs and goblins are practically two races, so giving them both shamans and squigherders would be unbalanced since they are considered one race together (4 classes) but if you guys want it your way, the Greenskin faction would have 6 classes. Then every other faction would have to get 2 extra classes, and so on.

Even if you saw the greenskins as 2 seperate races there is still only 4 classes maximum no matter how you look at it..

The more choices Greenskins have the more diverse the greenskin population, anyone arguing against Orc shaman and Goblin berserkers doesnt really know what they're talking about and why they're even arguing about it.. Unless there is some solid coding reason why at this stage it's not possible then there's no reason not to change it ..

The Greenskins are a different race to any other mmog races in that they comprise of sub-races.. This is bound to wierd people out a bit but really other than goblins, orcs dont get anything the other races won't have. but i really dont see why greenskins should be punished for having goblins.. :P

What if it was decided that dorf females can only be runepriests and engineers? or Elf females not being allowed to be tanks..

too many restrictions like this and ppl will feel pigeon holed and unhappy imo...

[Dysfinn]

Even if you saw the greenskins as 2 seperate races there is still only 4 classes maximum no matter how you look at it..

But that's what I said.

The more choices Greenskins have the more diverse the greenskin population

Oh. Yes, that'd be great and all, but you'd have to give every other race 2 extra classes to balance it out.

The Greenskins are a different race to any other mmog races in that they comprise of sub-races.. This is bound to wierd people out a bit but really other than goblins, orcs dont get anything the other races won't have. but i really dont see why greenskins should be punished for having goblins.. :P

They aren't being punished, you're getting 4 classes overall with two races in one faction, the Greenskins.

What if it was decided that dorf females can only be runepriests and engineers? or Elf females not being allowed to be tanks..

And again, stop using this silly metaphor that goblins and orcs are genders so that means you feel like you are being "pigeon holed", as you put it.

too many restrictions like this and ppl will feel pigeon holed and unhappy imo...
A small minority, yes, but will that make Mythic crash and burn? Not really. So it isn't a major decision on their list of to-do's. It looks like the Goblin and Orc career choices are currently set in stone, unless new information is revealed in the newsletter.

[Trolls]

Anyone arguing against Orc shaman and Goblin berserkers doesnt really know what they're talking about and why they're even arguing about it.. Unless there is some solid coding reason why at this stage it's not possible then there's no reason not to change it ..

you forgot part of it ;P

[Hyrus]

Let me ask you something. I know that I always play male characters. There isn't a thing you can do to get me to play a female character by choice, ever. Some people aren't this way, and that's fine. But I know there are dudes out there who only play dude characters, and it would seem respectable to come to the conclusion that there are women gamers out there who want to play avatars in which they can peronify with. Are those women gamers going to be playing Greenskins? I'm not saying no women would play them, i'm just asking are those who are rather set on playing as their own gender going to be playing male-only races whom exhibite the radical extremes of male stereotypes?

Are the "dark" or "evil" races in games always popular, or less popular?

Let me throw another one out there. Let's say that there are ONLY male dwarfs. Run with me on this one. Let's say that, in the design process, the developers feel it is unfair that there are only male dwarfs and feel like they need some sort of alternative to make the race feel more actractive to a broader range of gamers. So they add in, dun du duuun - mechanical dwarfs. Mechanical dwarfs are just like normal male dwarfs but with bolts and sparks firing out of them constantly. There. Now the dwarfs are going to be a more attractive race overall and are going to attract more gamers.

But. Dwarfs can only play as Ironbreakers and Runepriests. Mechanical dwarfs can only be Hammerers and Engineers. WHAT!?!?!? (I can hear the cries of thousands.) "I want to play my dwarf SLAYER (hammerer)! WTF?" Aren't dwarf slayers (hammerers) part of the lore? Aren't orc shamen part of the lore, too?

According to some people's arguments here, the mechanical dwarf counts a second race. Because they are not biological counterparts to eachother in a real life perspective, that the mechanical and normal dwarfs are uniquely different dimensions. And yet, the goblin and orc races, from the lore perspective, aren't *that* far off biologically speaking, and are said to simply evolve (somehow) through one to the other upon creation.

The way I see it, orcs should have 4 classes and goblins should have 4 classes, just like male dwarfs should have 4 classes and female dwarfs should have 4 classes. If there were only orcs, the race would be "gimp" and short on broad appeal. EVEN with goblins, the race is still short on broad appeal due to its one-sex nature. If female gamers really are on the rise, i'd see this as a concern.

But, one characteristic that is consistant with all the races is individuality. Obviously, when we look at the table top game, greenskins can compose either entirely orc or goblin armies. It's a popular aspect to the game. And here, we have orcs and goblins, a very strange race, as one in the same. I can understand where the "seperate races" argument begins. To make the race unique and to give each a personal class (Black Orc to Orcs; Squig Herders to Goblins) makes sense. It's not entirely a bad idea, either, that other races have only one sex that can be one particular class, with the inverse with the other sex and another class. I certainly hope it's not something included for EVERY single race in a realm, but if it happens once over here and once over there, I just see it as adding unique flavor to the match up. I don't see it as giving an extra class to the greenskins anymore then it is giving an extra class to dwarfs because female dwarfs can play as a heavy tank class too.

Orcs and goblins are practically two races, so giving them both shamans and squigherders would be unbalanced since they are considered one race together (4 classes) but if you guys want it your way, the Greenskin faction would have 6 classes. Then every other faction would have to get 2 extra classes, and so on.

So, therefore, it's easier to give every Faction 4 classes.

Why are they practically two races? Because one's shorter and scrawny and the other is tall and muscular? Because in the lore they are the same species? Black Orc, Beserker, Shaman, Squig herder. I must not be able to count, because I just counted 4 classes just like every other race. The difference is that the Greenskin army would be terribly gimp by cosmetic appeal if there were only male orcs as a race while every other race got a female counterpart. Restricting an Orc to two races and a Goblin to two races means that if I decide I like playing Orcs over Goblins, I have two options instead of the typical 4. If I like Orcs, I have two classes. Period. If I like Goblins, i'm in the same boat. If Orcs were male Empire and Goblins were Female Empire, the very same situation would pop up, especially if I was set on playing a specific gender.

And for the record, I absolutely abhor the pretty pink, fuzzy word, fluff. Cease and desist! :D

[Dysfinn]

Anyone arguing against Orc shaman and Goblin berserkers doesnt really know what they're talking about and why they're even arguing about it.. Unless there is some solid coding reason why at this stage it's not possible then there's no reason not to change it ..

you forgot part of it ;P
Because I didn't disagree with that part of the post?

In response to Hyrus' post, I don't know what to say, mainly cause you've repeated what everyone else has said :|

[mrpetey]

Where's the goblin melee class?

[kushinagi]

Squig Herders will be allowed to use Spears.

about the topic, less QQ more WAAAGH!

[Kazgut]

I wanted to play orc shaman myself, but tough I suppose Black Orc for me, I can hurt people in the face rather then heal them.

Just to make Kushi happy WAAAGH!!!

[Uglek]

While the option to play a orc shaman would have been fun, and could still happen, I doubt this issue will cause too many waves.

[Kaikai]

Let me ask you something. I know that I always play male characters. There isn't a thing you can do to get me to play a female character by choice, ever. Some people aren't this way, and that's fine. But I know there are dudes out there who only play dude characters, and it would seem respectable to come to the conclusion that there are women gamers out there who want to play avatars in which they can peronify with. Are those women gamers going to be playing Greenskins? I'm not saying no women would play them, i'm just asking are those who are rather set on playing as their own gender going to be playing male-only races whom exhibite the radical extremes of male stereotypes?

Are the "dark" or "evil" races in games always popular, or less popular?

Let me throw another one out there. Let's say that there are ONLY male dwarfs. Run with me on this one. Let's say that, in the design process, the developers feel it is unfair that there are only male dwarfs and feel like they need some sort of alternative to make the race feel more actractive to a broader range of gamers. So they add in, dun du duuun - mechanical dwarfs. Mechanical dwarfs are just like normal male dwarfs but with bolts and sparks firing out of them constantly. There. Now the dwarfs are going to be a more attractive race overall and are going to attract more gamers.

But. Dwarfs can only play as Ironbreakers and Runepriests. Mechanical dwarfs can only be Hammerers and Engineers. WHAT!?!?!? (I can hear the cries of thousands.) "I want to play my dwarf SLAYER (hammerer)! WTF?" Aren't dwarf slayers (hammerers) part of the lore? Aren't orc shamen part of the lore, too?

According to some people's arguments here, the mechanical dwarf counts a second race. Because they are not biological counterparts to eachother in a real life perspective, that the mechanical and normal dwarfs are uniquely different dimensions. And yet, the goblin and orc races, from the lore perspective, aren't *that* far off biologically speaking, and are said to simply evolve (somehow) through one to the other upon creation.

The way I see it, orcs should have 4 classes and goblins should have 4 classes, just like male dwarfs should have 4 classes and female dwarfs should have 4 classes. If there were only orcs, the race would be "gimp" and short on broad appeal. EVEN with goblins, the race is still short on broad appeal due to its one-sex nature. If female gamers really are on the rise, i'd see this as a concern.

But, one characteristic that is consistant with all the races is individuality. Obviously, when we look at the table top game, greenskins can compose either entirely orc or goblin armies. It's a popular aspect to the game. And here, we have orcs and goblins, a very strange race, as one in the same. I can understand where the "seperate races" argument begins. To make the race unique and to give each a personal class (Black Orc to Orcs; Squig Herders to Goblins) makes sense. It's not entirely a bad idea, either, that other races have only one sex that can be one particular class, with the inverse with the other sex and another class. I certainly hope it's not something included for EVERY single race in a realm, but if it happens once over here and once over there, I just see it as adding unique flavor to the match up. I don't see it as giving an extra class to the greenskins anymore then it is giving an extra class to dwarfs because female dwarfs can play as a heavy tank class too.



Why are they practically two races? Because one's shorter and scrawny and the other is tall and muscular? Because in the lore they are the same species? Black Orc, Beserker, Shaman, Squig herder. I must not be able to count, because I just counted 4 classes just like every other race. The difference is that the Greenskin army would be terribly gimp by cosmetic appeal if there were only male orcs as a race while every other race got a female counterpart. Restricting an Orc to two races and a Goblin to two races means that if I decide I like playing Orcs over Goblins, I have two options instead of the typical 4. If I like Orcs, I have two classes. Period. If I like Goblins, i'm in the same boat. If Orcs were male Empire and Goblins were Female Empire, the very same situation would pop up, especially if I was set on playing a specific gender.

And for the record, I absolutely abhor the pretty pink, fuzzy word, fluff. Cease and desist! :D

thats pretty much exactly the way i see it too.
goblin and orc are basicly just what other races get when they pick male or female, thus there really should be at least one class for greenskins that can be both orc and goblin

[kushinagi]

Trivia: the first (and only times) I've EVER heard the term "fluff" used to describe lore is for Warhammer. It was used to emphasize how little it added to the actual game. Something useful is solid. Something just added for flavor or decor is "fluff."

Also, no no no, Orcs and Goblins are NOTHING LIKE male/female versions of one another. Unless you want to suggest that females are the weaker, sneakier, decietful, backstabbing gender, then... I'll leave that blank.

[ConverseSC]

Trivia: the first (and only times) I've EVER heard the term "fluff" used to describe lore is for Warhammer. It was used to emphasize how little it added to the actual game. Something useful is solid. Something just added for flavor or decor is "fluff."

I've always seen it used as an interchangeable word for "lore" in general. Then again, my experience is admitedely quite limited.

[Julius]

I don't see what the big deal is either way.
While I could not in any way, shape or form picture myself a Goblin Berserker, I can see what Orc shamans are. And I understand that many people think they are missing from the game.

But why complain? Just because Mythic didn't want an Orc shaman for whatever reason (balance, unfair choices for other races) you have to go whine on an internetforum because you wanna play an Orc shaman? The lore they have read obviously didn't convince them to go for orc shamans, so you think that YOU saying they should is gonna make any difference?
You're arguments are clearly not good enough, so why bother to post them? Why repeat 16 times in a thread that we need orc shamans?
I think Mythic's choices are wonderfull. I don't need an Orc shaman. Orcs are mainly for fighting, and goblins for the cunning stuff. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but there are always exceptions.

Whether or not Orc shamans fit with the lore is unimportant, the main concern for a developer is balance. And Orc shamans aren't good for balance, since they have to be tougher than their goblin counterparts.(Yeah, if we're gonna stick to the lore, we're gonna stick to the Lore.) Anyone choosing Goblin shamans over Orc shamans is an idiot if they do that.(Since Goblins don't have anything better than Orcs, theyre just cheaper.)
So while giving everybody more choices, they have to unbalance the game. And to counter that unbalance they have to do even more tweaking and we'll never see this game come out.

[pentabell]

yeah, on that note, pretty sure that the DE race will have male/female only classes, the witch and the assassin, respectively. so im pretty sure thats what everyone is arguing about here, that only one side of a race can pick one class, and without the DE race, it is solely orcs, but it will happen to the DE race aswell, so dont worry about it.

i say go for orc shamans, a meele class might be dificult to pull off having the same stats an orc as a goblin, such as choppa, a caster class with the same stats (orc and goblin) would be perfectly fine.

[Kraus]

They already stated that males would be sorcerers also for DE, so dont count on it :P

[Kaikai]

Also, no no no, Orcs and Goblins are NOTHING LIKE male/female versions of one another. Unless you want to suggest that females are the weaker, sneakier, decietful, backstabbing gender, then... I'll leave that blank.

lose wise yes, they are nothing alike.

game wise, orc and goblin replace gender choices for other races, and thus there should be at least one class that is both orc and gobbo.
having one would make alot of people very happy in my opinion, and thats basicly what games are about.

[Kraus]

Letting all classes choose between orc and goblin would make people happy still, but doesnt always make it a good idea.

[Trolls]

Well it's not like the sky is gonna fall without orc shaman, the game will still rock and Greenskins will still own all.. ;p

[Averardus]

It could be simply that the Greenskins are actually ONE faction, sort of ONE race really. Thats probly why they didnt let Goblin and Ork have a choice of all classes avaiable. They had to split it up between the 2.

At least that was my assumption :p

[Kermichil]

What a ridiculous argument.... you just agreed with me and told me I was wrong in the same paragraph they had to chose 4 playable classes if you include Orc Shaman aswell as Goblin Shaman thats 5 playable classes you can't just copy and paste the goblin shaman code onto an orc model and say Job done theres a big difference between doing that for genders and doing it for races therfore they had to make a choice give the shaman to the goblins or give the shaman to the orcs and come up with another class for the goblins. Thats exactly what they did and thats exactly what I said.


That would be like saying that a female Warrior Priest and a male Warrior Priest are two different classes. The best way to think of the greenskins (for this MMO) are as two sexes of the same that have 4 sex specific classes. Okay, so Orks and Gobo's may have different starting stats, but that won't make one of the two not played by the customer base.

[Goldbeard]

I would really have liked to see the choice of Orc or Goblin shaman, because if you think about it there are only 2 Orc classes. In tabletop I field mostly Orcs so it would have been nice to be able to stick to that if you dont like Goblins but what can we do.

[Y'vess]

That would be like saying that a female Warrior Priest and a male Warrior Priest are two different classes. The best way to think of the greenskins (for this MMO) are as two sexes of the same that have 4 sex specific classes. Okay, so Orks and Gobo's may have different starting stats, but that won't make one of the two not played by the customer base.

No it isn't, DON'T keep thinking goblins are the female sex for the orcs thats where your problem is comming from. Greenskins is two races starting in one zone there are no female equivalents and they only get 2 classes to chose from each and thats that.

Female human/Male human have the same stats and abilities so whatever class they share will not affect the desireability between them because they are effectively just a "skin"

Goblin/Orc will not have same stats because they are not just a skin they are physically different creations. Nobdoy wants a weaker goblin tank when they can have an orc tank that has more wounds and is physically stronger. Nobody wants a healing orc that isn't as smart and thus does less magical damage and healing. There is enough class/race prejudice in existing mmo's to prove this is the case.

In order to do what youre asking Mythic would effectively have to cross balance the abilities for all 4 classes for two seperate races for one starting zone, then they would have to cross balance all the equipment for both races and create models for all the equipment for all clases and both races. It would give them so much more work to do just for the "Greenskins" they would probably rather just create orcs so be thankfull they are including goblins aswell and that goblins get to have unique and important classes that the orcs need and vice versa.