Phoenix Guard should have been the tanks

[meleemadness]

I know they are the kings Body Guard (or guard the temple of Asur, something like that) but they are still more heavily armed. They had the option to use a shield in the table top game, I believe.

Swordmasters were more offensive in Warhammer. They had a high initiative and always struck first.

Anyway, I think the Phoenix guard would have looked better as they had nice cloaks.

[Ceandric]

I know they are the kings Body Guard (or guard the temple of Asur, something like that) but they are still more heavily armed. They had the option to use a shield in the table top game, I believe.

Swordmasters were more offensive in Warhammer. They had a high initiative and always struck first.

Anyway, I think the Phoenix guard would have looked better as they had nice cloaks.


oh, no... not this again ;)

Phoenix Guards wouldn't work at all as a playable class in an mmo since they absolutely cannot talk. They look cool I'd agree, but as I said... it isn't going to happen.

[Izule]

Yeah the Phoenix Guards look cool but the Swordmaster's fit the role of Anti Magic Tank perfectly, I think once people actually play the game they will more fully understand the role of the Swordmaster and how he does make a nice addition to the tanks of the game.

[meleemadness]

oh, no... not this again ;)

Phoenix Guards wouldn't work at all as a playable class in an mmo since they absolutely cannot talk. They look cool I'd agree, but as I said... it isn't going to happen.

lol...that's right, I forgot about that important piece. Hmm, they could have a game mechanic based on shouts!!! wait...

[Delolith]

lol...that's right, I forgot about that important piece. Hmm, they could have a game mechanic based on shouts!!! wait...

Phoenix Guard are not the King's Body Guards....those are White Lions. Phoenix Guard are guardians of the sacred Flame of Assuryan in his temple. They have no reason to leave the temple....they only leave the temple to participate in fights when they know that something important is happening....or when the Phoenix King himself is in the army (lorewise). Now add the fact that because they know everything that will happen, they are silenced, never to speak again or make any sound (that is why they cause fear) so how would you implement something like that in an MMO....well you cannot. And Phoenix Guard are not better armoured than Swordmasters because they have a shield...but they have a magical ward save of 4+ against any dmg...that is what makes them tanks.

Delolith

[Kaeldor]

Uhh that one again. This is one of the topics which you should be automatically prevent from creating by now.

And the short answer is: no

[Jinsei]

The Swordmaster was chosen because it was a better fit lore-wise and one thing that Mythic is trying to do with the elf classes is make them distinct. The Phoenix Guard is essentially a High Elf Black Guard who can't talk, which really takes away from the whole iconic approach they so enjoy. Same reason why Executioners weren't picked as the Dark Elf tanks, they infringe on the Swordmaster's shtick and would be incredibly hard to balance with killing blow. The SM and the (former /mourn) BG were the best tanks because they showcased each elf race in a different light without many retcons to existing lore or tabletop interpretations.

[Harlequin70]

Ahhhhhhhhh! Maybe someone else would like th brign up the Khorne/Khaine question again!


No Phoenix Guard would not make a good Tank.

1 They are a purley defensive regiment, rarely leaving Ulthuan
2 They don't speak
3 you'd hardly ever find one on his own
4 The Swordmaster is the Tank
5 The PG is the Asur version of the Black Guard, in weapon and fighting style, that didn't work why should the PG
6 They only have one fighting style which is teh Halberd, they are also very limited in options, they don't carry shields etc

[Chizakura]

I have to admit that I wondered about this some as well. I only have the most rudimentary knowledge of the TT and not much of the lore background, but from the fact that the TT models used 2h and had high initiative while only... T3(?)... SMs seemed to be a natural choice for mdps in concept to me.

I'd be very curious to know why Mythic decided to go with SMs as a tanking archetype.

[Ceandric]

I have to admit that I wondered about this some as well. I only have the most rudimentary knowledge of the TT and not much of the lore background, but from the fact that the TT models used 2h and had high initiative while only... T3(?)... SMs seemed to be a natural choice for mdps in concept to me.

I'd be very curious to know why Mythic decided to go with SMs as a tanking archetype.

Well, I'll try to give you a few pointers as to why SM's probably were the logical choice for Mythic.

1: They were only after elite regiments or better, making spearmen an impossible choice. (archmage is a lord character in the TT)

2: High agility and initiative suitable for an evasion tank. (They already had the Ironbreaker and KotBS in the roles of rock and buff tanks)

3: A possibility to include a magical element to their tanking since the SM's are trained in what is no doubt one of the most magical places in all of Ulthuan.

4: Swordmasters are also the eyes and ears of the White Tower of Hoeth and as such are trained to travel alone or in small groups.

5: They are easily masters in all facets of swordfighting, and although the greatsword is the traditional weapon, they're probably just as trained in fighting with the Longsword/shield combo.

6: And last but not least, there was really no true alternative. PG's are out on default, Dragonprinces don't really have any lore reason at all to build an evasion tank from, and what else is there..? Nothing.

Hope this clears up their likely reasoning somewhat :)

[Scoot78]

Anyone else find that following a game based on the warhammer series which is like 20 years old gets kind of annoying? I mean the part about having to be lore specific and not breaking it. Pheonix guard would be cool, but theres always annoying lore in the way. I know if it wasnt for GW they wouldnt even be making WAR, but why does it have to be so lore specific, who is gonna check or care? (besides GW)

[Chizakura]

Cool. Thank you for the insight, Ceandric. As a tangent, in your opinion, do you think swordmasters would have made for a decent mdps class? Let's ignore, for now, the fact that it would deprive Elves of a tank class. I'm just curious.

[Tingol]

Anyone else find that following a game based on the warhammer series which is like 20 years old gets kind of annoying? I mean the part about having to be lore specific and not breaking it. Pheonix guard would be cool, but theres always annoying lore in the way. I know if it wasnt for GW they wouldnt even be making WAR, but why does it have to be so lore specific, who is gonna check or care? (besides GW)

What about thousands and thousands of fans of the lore? Why make a MMO based on an existing world and then not following it as strictly as possible?

[Ceandric]

Cool. Thank you for the insight, Ceandric. As a tangent, in your opinion, do you think swordmasters would have made for a decent mdps class? Let's ignore, for now, the fact that it would deprive Elves of a tank class. I'm just curious.

Hehe, np Cizakura. As for the Swordmasters as melee dps, ofcourse they'd make an absolutely awesome job for many of the same reasons I used earlier :)

Originally Posted by Scoot78 http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/images/WHA/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1058144#post1058144)
Anyone else find that following a game based on the warhammer series which is like 20 years old gets kind of annoying? I mean the part about having to be lore specific and not breaking it. Pheonix guard would be cool, but theres always annoying lore in the way. I know if it wasnt for GW they wouldnt even be making WAR, but why does it have to be so lore specific, who is gonna check or care? (besides GW)

Oooh, talk about waving the red flag...

When you try to create a game off a license like GW's then you do your damnedest to follow it as good as you can within the bounds of the platform you make it for. if you don't then you'll both probably loose support from both the fans of the license aswell as GW. GW might even withdraw their rights to create such a game due to what they'd call a breach of the terms of the contract.

[Rotgut_Eadsmasha]

Anyone else find that following a game based on the warhammer series which is like 20 years old gets kind of annoying? I mean the part about having to be lore specific and not breaking it. Pheonix guard would be cool, but theres always annoying lore in the way. I know if it wasnt for GW they wouldnt even be making WAR, but why does it have to be so lore specific, who is gonna check or care? (besides GW)

So you want Generic Fantasy MMO #3302570?

Why the hell should they even call it WARHAMMER if they just make up what ever crap they want!?

Do you complain about World War 2 games not having helicopters and Tomahawk cruise misslies? Cause it's been 60+ years but do they have to stick with all the history and lore of World War 2 when making a game based on the history and lore of World War 2? It's so annoying. Stupid lore and history. I hate books! :rolleyes:

[Javelin]

Anyone else find that following a game based on the warhammer series which is like 20 years old gets kind of annoying? I mean the part about having to be lore specific and not breaking it. Pheonix guard would be cool, but theres always annoying lore in the way. I know if it wasnt for GW they wouldnt even be making WAR, but why does it have to be so lore specific, who is gonna check or care? (besides GW)


I'm sorry, but that must be one of the most stupid things I have ever heard. If you don't want warhammer lore, don't play a warhammer game.

[Ashuran]

Cool. Thank you for the insight, Ceandric. As a tangent, in your opinion, do you think swordmasters would have made for a decent mdps class? Let's ignore, for now, the fact that it would deprive Elves of a tank class. I'm just curious.


I know you are not asking me this question, but I want to comment on this anyway.

By the PvP design of WAR, the mdps archtype is weak against the tank archtype. If the SM was a mdps, then he would be innately weak against the Black Orc and the Chosen. How would you feel as a SM if you were innately weak against Destruction melee classes and couldn't beat these classes in melee? I bet you would feel disappointed and frustrated that the Swordmaster is not so much a master of melee combat now, would you?

Right now, the SM as an anti-magic tank archtype has advantage over all destruction melee classes and a good chance in beating them, at least in 1v1, although this game was not designed for 1v1...

1: SM is a tank, and tanks are innately strong vs. mdps by PvP design of WAR.
2: SM is strong vs. Chosen and Black Orc because the SM can deal melee magic damage that bypasses these tanks' heavy armor, while these Destruction tanks can't deal damage that bypasses the SM's defense. The Black Guard would have been on the same level as the SM, but he is not coming out anytime soon.
3: SM is an anti-magic tank by design and he has good anti-magic combat abilities, which give him the advantage over melee/support magic type classes like the Zealot and the Disicple.

In addition, the SM's anti-magic abilities give them a decent chance vs. magic ranged classes, like the Sorceress, the Magus, and the Shaman, who would otherwise destroy other tanks with their magic.

The only true bane of the SM is the Squid Herder, who is the mobility physical ranged dps of the Destruction, and can kite the SM to death if played right.

So would you still like to the SM to be a mdps? Or would you like to have the SM stay as an anti-magic tank?

[Felfenix]

I don't see what's wrong with a class that prevents elf players from talking.

[Javelin]

I don't see what's wrong with a class that prevents elf players from talking.

Yeah, communication in MMOs is overrated;)

[ticho123]

Yeah, communication in MMOs is overrated;)

He was actually elf-bashing...

[Grax]

I'm sure they will be in the game as badass NPC's

Also, at the time of class implementation they would have been pretty much identical to the Black Guard in the most important aspects. Another haldberd wielding tank.