Dwarf Holds

[Cookster5]

How many Dwarf Holds actually remain? I've always wondered, as the Dwarfs are meant to be a dying race, slowly falling to the Greenskins, how many Holds are still held by Dwarfs?

[Snorri]

Probablly about six or seven : ) maybe even five.
Ok I completly made that up :p

Has anyone got an accurate answer? Would like to know also... I only know of four.

[dutch_gamer]

The Dwarf holds still remaining are: Karak Norn, Karak Hirn, Karak Izor, Barak Varr, Zhufbar, Karak Kadrin, Karaz-a-Karak and Karak Azul. So that makes 8 holds still remaining. I actually hope that the Dwarfs won't keep on losing hold after hold. And I hope that they some day will regain some of their fallen holds and that they won't completely die out some day.

[LiquidShaDow]

I apologise for riding on this thread to ask my question....:mrgreen:....do dwarfs normally trap their strongholds? I'm thinking mechanical stone based traps like falling blocks to seal in invaders, crossbow rigged to tripwires and stuff.

[sm|te]

Will there be holds in WAR?

[Bloodstorm]

I apologise for riding on this thread to ask my question....:mrgreen:....do dwarfs normally trap their strongholds? I'm thinking mechanical stone based traps like falling blocks to seal in invaders, crossbow rigged to tripwires and stuff.

I dunno, it seems to be very sneaky and not particularly Dwarfish, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were some form of traps within their halls, though it would get annoying having to remember which chambers hold which traps and keeping certain places off-limits. A dwarf's hold is his own damn hold, afterall! It takes more than traps to stop the tide of Green anyway. It takes axes. ;)

[Bloodstorm]

Will there be holds in WAR?

Probably, though alot of them will be occupied by Orcs (It seems that Karak Eight Peaks will be the Greenskin capital).

[sm|te]

Probably, though alot of them will be occupied by Orcs (It seems that Karak Eight Peaks will be the Greenskin capital).

Hmm, I doubt people playing on RP servers will let that last very long eh?

[Timanous]

Dwarfs better destroy the greenskins!

[Snorri]

I dunno about traps, but their holds do contain many secret passages, some which lead to large, yet concealed, emergency halls and exits. The halls and entrances to the secret passages are usually invisible to the naked eye and are protected with powerful rune magic. The dwarfs are experts with stonework, a human could live their whole life and never find all the crooks and crannies that lead to yet more rooms in the hold.

These halls are usually used as shelter against an attack, sacred areas, places to protect the women and children, or their last line of retreat.

[Bigvinuy]

I apologise for riding on this thread to ask my question....:mrgreen:....do dwarfs normally trap their strongholds? I'm thinking mechanical stone based traps like falling blocks to seal in invaders, crossbow rigged to tripwires and stuff.

Dwarven Engineer holds have been known to be riddled with traps, and this makes perfect sense, seeing as how engineers lack the same dwavish honor that their brothers hold in high esteem. i wouldn't count on any being in the game though

Hmm, I doubt people playing on RP servers will let that last very long eh?

Actually Karak Eight Peaks is one of the most famous stolen holds in Warhammer so it would make sense for the greenskins to hang about there. RPers won't mind (and maybe even embrace it)

[Grimr]

Hmm, I doubt people playing on RP servers will let that last very long eh?

Well, who does not wish to claim grudges and retake Karak Eight Peak?

Baruk a Khazad!

[LiquidShaDow]

Well, I'm asking about traps in strongholds because I've read of it in other fantasy settings about them. Dwarfs being master of stonework and all, have the engineering skills to build mechanisms to trap or hinder foes that manage to venture into their halls, so traps to me sounds like a reasonable medium of defense. I would expect that the other dwarfs that dwell in the location to be aware of such defense traps or at least can avoid them with ease whereas an unsuspecting intruder will easily trigger them since they're probably hidden in the stonework and all.

Am I making sense?

[Timanous]

I think holds will exist.

[Deathstroke]

I'm almost certain there are more than 8 dwarf holds still left, there are still various minor holds, outdoor forts and the large dwarf population that lives and works in The Empire.

That said, Dwarfs are not above laying traps and using sneaky tactics. Their honour does not transfer over to their mortal enemies the Greenskins, Skaven, Chaos, etc...

[dutch_gamer]

I'm almost certain there are more than 8 dwarf holds still left, there are still various minor holds, outdoor forts and the large dwarf population that lives and works in The Empire.

That said, Dwarfs are not above laying traps and using sneaky tactics. Their honour does not transfer over to their mortal enemies the Greenskins, Skaven, Chaos, etc...

This might be true. But the holds I wrote down are the ones showing in my Dwarf Army book as still being owned by the Dwarfs.

[Bigvinuy]

for the sake of freedom when it comes to playing the TT game, i would expect that there are smaller dwarf holds out there, which lack the major popularity of the ones named on the other page. It lets players make their own throng of dwarves making a name for themselves

[dutch_gamer]

Yes, in the TT game there are more than just those holds out there. I have once seen a map with I believe were towns and well lots of Dwarfen monuments..

[luy22]

What would be odd, is if the holds are completely taken by Greenskins, and the Dwarfs are forced to be a seafaring race... :P

[Deathstroke]

What would be odd, is if the holds are completely taken by Greenskins, and the Dwarfs are forced to be a seafaring race... :P

Funny you should mention that...

Barak Varr is the only sea side Dwarf hold, complete with it's own ironclad navy, not like the feeble wooden ships of the other races.

[Bolg]

I guess the ones mentioned before could stand for dwaf hold too. However you might want to specify what kind of dwarf hold are you refering to since. The ones that the were mentioned to be still held by the dwarfs are not your simple dwarf holds, but actually dwarfish cities where the Lords and Kings of Large Clans and minor noble families claim vassalage to.

Dwarfs are very communal and very stubborn as well. Though greenskins and Ogre's and Skaven plague their homelands I'm certain there are some little mentioned dwarf holds out there that continue (out of sheer stuborness) to be small satellites to the larger dwarf holds that were mentioned.

So despite the fact that the Dwarf race as a whole may be dwindling out. I believe they may not be all as lost as the books would have you think.

[Snorri]

NORSE DWARFS
Dwarfs entered the mountains of Norsca so long ago that over the centuries they evolved a culture and language slightly different from that of the dwarfs who lived further south. In many ways they resemble the mannish folk of the Norsca in their expressions, arts and temperament... or perhaps it is the Norse who have been influenced by the dwarfs.

There are several great and strong Norse Dwarf strongholds in the mountains of Norsca, including Kraka Drak, the renowned Dragon Hold. Here the dwarfs mine for iron and precious metals, and prospect along the coastline for amber.


There you go, proof there are more than just the eight you mentioned :cool:

I also recall lots of small dwraf settlements near their fallen holds/inside their fallen holds as Bolg mentioned.

[dutch_gamer]

I saw the thing about Kraka Drak today. It is mentioned in the map but with an arrow in book 6.5. Although I do wonder how much that hold is actually a part of the Dwarfen realm. I would expect that there is hardly any communication between the Norse Dwarfs and the Khazukan (Dwarfs).

Dwarfen holds (the Karaks) are the big cities, the cities that have been carved out inside mountains. Anything else is basically a town (I believe they are called Khazid) or a fortress (Kazad). You can find Dwarfs that live inside fortified guildhouses in areas such as Bretonnia, Tilea and the Empire.

I think we should decide what holds we want mentioned. Especially since the Norsca Dwarfs have a different culture and language than the Dwarfs we get to play. And also since the thread is about holds, we should decide if it is only the Karaks that can be considered holds. When including Khazids and Kazads it will become a very big list.

Edit(10th edit by now):

I have found a map that seems to show Karaks that aren't being mentioned in the 6th and the 6.5 edition. So I truly wonder which version it is based on. The Karaks are between Tilia and the Border Princes (the Vault/Apucinni mountains) and are called: Karak Kaferkammaz, Karak Grom, Karak Eksfilaz. And other Karaks in the Black Mountains that are not being mentioned in last two versions of the Dwarf army book: Karak Gantuk and Karak Angazhar. And yet another Karak south of Karak Norn called Karak Ziflin.

I would think that the Karaks between Tilea/Border Princes still belong to the Dwarfs since they don't often seem to face Grobi, unless they have faced some Skaven. But I do really wonder if the two extra Karaks in the Black Mountains are still in the hands of the Dwarfs, since it is very near to the Black Fire Pass. And the books just don't mention those Karaks any longer.

So recap of the Karaks so far: Barak Varr, Karak Grom, Karak Eksfilaz, Karak Kaferkammaz, Karak Ziflin, Karak Norn, Karak Hirn, Karak Gantuk, Karak Angazhar, Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Azul, Zhufbar, Karak Kadrin and the Norsca Dwarf hold of Kraka Drak. So that is 13 holds owned by Khazukan and 14 overal with all Dwarfs (including the Norsca Dwarfs). And in the game this can be one more, since there the Dwarfs own Ekrund. And Ekrund is shown as a Karak in the Dwarf Army book 6 (not owned by the Dwarfs in that version).

[Deathstroke]

Also of interest is the lost Dwarf hold of Karak Zorn located at the far end of the world's edge mountains in the Southlands.

[dutch_gamer]

Also of interest is the lost Dwarf hold of Karak Zorn located at the far end of the world's edge mountains in the Southlands.

Yes, but I thought the OP started with asking what holds remain? Otherwise I could have mentioned a ton more Karaks than just Karak Zorn. :p

[Lordhelsby]

As for traps, in the dwarf book (the sixth edition) it mentions that Karaz-a-Karak has dragon heads carved into the sides of the valley, and that molten metal (or it might be lava) can be poored out of them. I wouldn't be suprised if dwarf holds had several levels of defence within the structure.

[Bolg]

With regards to the lethality of dwarfen traps, these can be breached and overwhelmed by the hordes of cunning hapless Goblins and numerous vile Skaven that constantly assail the dwarfish holds. The dwarfs traditions can be a huge detriment to them since if an army of goblins or skaven lay siege to a dwarf hold for any length of time, they will either overwhelm the defenders and their defenses and traps through sheer numbers and will or learn the techniques employed by the dwarfs in their defense that their foes learn to counter them before the not so flexible dwarfs are able to adapt to thier enemies strategies, eventually leaving them vulnerable to any enemy who can out think them. Their dwarf holds represent this philosophy. If you can find a flaw or the weak link in the seemingly flawless armor of a dwarfs defense, then you can exploit it and dwarfish nature will prevent them from reacting and preparing against your assault until too late.

This scenario can best exemplify what happened when Karak Eight Peaks fell in the game lore for WAR. The dwarfs did not expect and prepare for the eventuality that their defenses could be breached by greenskins thus were left vulnerable to a sacking and the city falling to their ancient nemeses.

A dwarf in War is slow, stoic, practical and inexorable. In the early stages he may be slow to react, but give him time to prepare and he may be nigh unstoppable in any field, due to his exacting and thorough nature. Dwarfs are superb strategists and innovators with Elves being the superior force physically and meta-physically and humans being the consummate tacticians with numbers and will to match more horde-like enemies.

[Cookster5]

With regards to the lethality of dwarfen traps, these can be breached and overwhelmed by the hordes of cunning hapless Goblins and numerous vile Skaven that constantly assail the dwarfish holds. The dwarfs traditions can be a huge detriment to them since if an army of goblins or skaven lay siege to a dwarf hold for any length of time, they will either overwhelm the defenders and their defenses and traps through sheer numbers and will or learn the techniques employed by the dwarfs in their defense that their foes learn to counter them before the not so flexible dwarfs are able to adapt to thier enemies strategies, eventually leaving them vulnerable to any enemy who can out think them. Their dwarf holds represent this philosophy. If you can find a flaw or the weak link in the seemingly flawless armor of a dwarfs defense, then you can exploit it and dwarfish nature will prevent them from reacting and preparing against your assault until too late.

This scenario can best exemplify what happened when Karak Eight Peaks fell in the game lore for WAR. The dwarfs did not expect and prepare for the eventuality that their defenses could be breached by greenskins thus were left vulnerable to a sacking and the city falling to their ancient nemeses.

A dwarf in War is slow, stoic, practical and inexorable. In the early stages he may be slow to react, but give him time to prepare and he may be nigh unstoppable in any field, due to his exacting and thorough nature. Dwarfs are superb strategists and innovators with Elves being the superior force physically and meta-physically and humans being the consummate tacticians with numbers and will to match more horde-like enemies.

Regarding Karak Eight Peaks, when that first fell, as mentioned in the Gotrek and Felix novels, didn't it fall due to Skaven/Greenskins tunnelling in from below? Seems the Dwarfs felt indestructible, but forgot about their weak underbelly.

Also, in the Gotrek and Felix books, although Karak Eight Peaks was swarming with Gobbos, some Dwarfs had a tentative hold on the gates, and were starting to venture into the Hold again. I assume that in Warhammer Online the Greenskins have fully conquered Karak Eight Peaks again....

[dutch_gamer]

Since this thread is about "locations" in Warhammer. I will just ask this question in this thread.

Does anyone have a clue where the Skull Pass is located? (Obviously because of the new starterset for Warhammer which will be released on the 9th of September. Although some people somehow already have in their possession)

[Snorri]

Regarding Karak Eight Peaks, when that first fell, as mentioned in the Gotrek and Felix novels, didn't it fall due to Skaven/Greenskins tunnelling in from below? Seems the Dwarfs felt indestructible, but forgot about their weak underbelly.
Indeed you are correct, Skaven tunneled in from below and attacked the dwrafs where they felt most secure - underground, which is one of the biggest reasons the great hold fell.

Bolg is also completly correct though ;) The greenskins attacked the walls of Karak Eight Peaks relentlessly, and, to the dwarf's utter disbelief, broke through the wall.
The combined devasting effects caused the loss of the dwarf's home... brutal I tells ye, brutal!

Also, in the Gotrek and Felix books, although Karak Eight Peaks was swarming with Gobbos, some Dwarfs had a tentative hold on the gates, and were starting to venture into the Hold again. I assume that in Warhammer Online the Greenskins have fully conquered Karak Eight Peaks again....

You are correct again, in the Gotrek and felix novels they speak to the dwarfs before desending into the gloom of Karak Eight Peaks. Whether such an outpost/gate guard will be present in W.a.R is unknown. Maybe they will exist as PvE mobs for the young orcs... maybe not. We'll have to wait and see.