Siyx's Complete In-Depth Ironbreaker Discussion [Archive]

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Siyx

08-11-2008, 12:49 AM

Siyx's Complete In-Depth Ironbreaker Discussion
Version 1.5 (08/19/08 – BETA Build 3.3)
Written and compiled by: Siyx

: Disclaimer :
Warning – opinions may be involved.
Table of Contents

From the desk of Siyx: A note on 'Tanking' in Warhammer Online
The Ironbreaker's Role(s) in WAR
Popular Mechanics for Ironbreakers
a) Grudges
b) You and your Oath Friend
c) Mastery Discussion
d) Tactics and Morales
e) Character Stats
Ironbreaker VS. The Sword Master
Questions and Answers
Comprehensive Spell Index

1. A note on 'Tanking' in Warhammer Online (RvR)

Before I get started on the rest of this, I feel this is an area I need to address since the biggest question or concern I've received is regarding the viability of the timeless “Tank” Archetype in a game focused largely around Player VS. Player encounters. First of all, we can thank World of Warcraft and EverQuest for the negative stereotype surrounding the word 'tank' when we are talking about on-line games in this day and age. Both aforementioned games have put a very large emphasis on PvE (Player VS. Environment, commonly known as raiding) and designed their tanking classes to be very PvE oriented as well (pretty much exclusively).

Thankfully Warhammer Online: The Age of Reckoning (WAR) breaks this trend and, by association, the widely accepted opinion that “Tanks” are only useful in PvE. To truly enjoy and succeed at playing an Ironbreaker (or any of the other three “Tank” careers in WAR) you have to break away from that very narrow-minded way of thinking, of course, this is very easy to do since the developers over at an exceptional job with the 'tanking' mechanics in Warhammer, many of which will be discussed in the remainder of this article. Tanks are very viable in PvP (Player VS. Player) although you won't be “tanking” in a traditional sense. I'll explain more as we go along.

2. The Ironbreaker's Role(s) in WAR

This is a pretty hot topic at the moment. I've done a great deal of theory-crafting and debating on this subject and the conclusion I've come to is that Ironbreaker's have one “main role” or focus, and several “sub-roles” falling under that, mostly dependent on Mastery choices and play-style.

The main focus, or role, of the Ironbreaker is to be a TANK! - Yes. You are playing a TANK archetype. You are playing the IRONBREAKER (reference Warhammer lore, Ironbreakers being very tough defensively). Your number one priority, no matter how you choose to play or spend your Mastery Points is to protect your team. You are there to control your opponents via snares, roots and knock backs, and mitigate incoming damage for yourself and of course your allies. Now you can carry out this role a couple of ways.

Sub-Role #1: Playing Offensively – So you've decided that lopping some heads with your shiny two-handed axe is the right way to protect your team? Perfect. This line will probably pop up again since I believe it holds very true for Ironbreaker's (and WAR tanks in general) “the best defense is a strong offense”. If you're pressuring opposing healers or casters to the point where they cannot do what they need to be doing, or controlling enemy melee off your healer or Battlefield Objective (BO), in a round-a-bout way are very defensive maneuvers, if you force the opposing side into a position where they have to be babysitting you, thats ideal. All the arguments against playing a Vengeance Ironbreaker have mostly been based around not being able to “tank”. This is completely false, while chances are you won't be babysitting a healer or caster in this role, you will have other MDPS fighting at your side, most of which can't take a lot of hits. When I've played this angle I found myself usually picking a Witch Hunter or White Lion as my Oath Friend as they seem to be high priority targets (at least the ones I play with, keep in mind who is getting attacked will be based on what everyone is doing at any given point in time) so you will get Grudge from the hits they take and so you can easily toss them a little extra on demand avoidance through Guarded Attack and Vengeful Strike. In addition, when the defense isn't needed and an opportunity for some melee burst arises, Ancestor's Fury (60 Strength and 10% Critical Hit Chance for you and your Oath Friend) provides some powerful melee synergy. So to sum up the main focuses of playing a Vengeance / Offensive / two-handed Ironbreaker...

> Keep your melee line alive. Rotate Oath Friend to focus targets and use Guarded Attack / Vengeful Strike with Guard to severely cut down the damage they are taking.
> Pressure opposing healers and casters, if you can force your opponents melee line to have to back off to peel you off their healers, they aren't on offense anymore.
> Use control as much as you can!
> When the opportunity opens up, use some of those nifty “big numbers” abilities and drop a melee assist train on some unlucky sucker. Be sure to employ Ancestor's Fury to maximize the melee synergy.

Sub-Role #2: Playing Defensively – Just as playing Vengeance with a Great Weapon is very viable and holds value on the battlefield, as is playing running around with the trusty old sword and board. While most of the Ironbreaker remains pretty baseline across all three Mastery trees, going from Vengeance to Stone/Brotherhood you are basically trading offensive pressure capabilities for increased survivability and the ability to mitigate and absorb damage for your group. One thing we need to realize here, is that WAR is not a solo game at the best of times, this is about PvP as a team, and more importantly actually working for and with your team. The BEST way to benefit your fellow players, is to stop them from taking damage, and keep your enemies in check for them. The thought that as a sword and shield Ironbreaker you will be sitting in the back next to your healer doing nothing until someone rolls up, this is totally wrong. No matter how you decide you're going to play the Ironbreaker, you should ALWAYS be right up in the action, you are the front line! Often you can prevent your squishies from taking damage by simply using collision detection to block them. This does take some practice and side-stepping skill but once you get good at it, you can keep someone from moving anywhere for sometimes ridiculous (relative term) amounts of time. This is also a good strategy if you're trying to build Grudge but everyone seems to be ignoring you, I couldn't count all the times someone who was trying to ignore me just started attacking me out of sheer frustration of being blocked for so long.

The way I see this angle being played to maximum potential is to be a big enough pain in the to the point where your opponents will feel the need to kill you just to get you out of their hair, and in the process ignoring others. This can be accomplished through good use of snares, stuns and knock backs. I have been able to keep melee opponents off my healers with a great degree of success, eventually your targeted melee will get tired of being kited around while you're harassing him and decide that it would be better to attack you than run around like a chicken with his head cut off, not being able to do anything offensively. Either way they are DPSing you, who can take an amazing amount of hits with the shield on, or trying (and failing) to chase down a high priority target with you controlling them the entire time, they are basically useless to any offensive your enemies are trying to mount in both situations, exactly the situation you want. The last point I want to raise is the use of Hold The Line! (HTL – 45% dodge personally, 15% to allies behind you, 12 second duration ), to me this reads like a clutch ability for the times where an ally is in desperate need of that little extra defense but there is no time for a peel, or you are sitting on cool-downs. With it you can give all of your allies behind you an extra 15% dodge passively simply by standing there and channeling the ability and can provide some very clutch avoidance for those last second heals to land, use it wisely (can also be able to provide the same clutch defense for yourself if you have no other options. So to sum up the defensive roll...

> Be a pain, harass! Keeping your opposing players under control is a top priority.
> Watch for focus fires. Use Guard / Oath Friend (Vengeful Strike / Guarded Attack) as much as you can, reducing incoming damage makes healing much easier.
> Learn how to peel effectively. By this I mean timing your control abilities with your allies escape mechanisms to ensure he gets away, and you are back in a position to continue the control if needed.
> Hold The Line! Use it wisely, very, very potent ability when used to clutch situations.
> Don't forget collision detection is in this game for a reason, practice your side-stepping to stay directly in front of someone, and block like crazy!

*Note: Most of the preceding “roles” segment is mostly opinion (of myself / other BETA testers) and things I've tried out and seen done. It is in no way the “be-all-end-all” list of ways to play or definitive. In addition, most strategies, and situations described were performed with an organized group.

Siyx

08-11-2008, 12:50 AM

3. Popular Mechanics for Ironbreakers

A) Grudges – The driving mechanic behind the Ironbreaker career is of course the Grudge system. Some have compared this to the inverse of World of Warcraft's Warrior mechanic; Rage, and while the two systems have a few very limited similarities, the two are as different as night and day. Lets look at a few core points of the Grudge system.

> Grudge caps out at 100 (you can not build your Grudge past this point, you must wait for it to fade or spend some).
> You gain 5 Grudge every time an enemy attacks you and 10 Grudge every time your Oath Friend is attacked. Additionally if you have the Career Tactic “Rising Anger” slotted you will gain 5 Grudge every time YOU attack an enemy. This Tactic seems to an internal lockout of roughly one second, so using a faster weapon will not see any real added benefits over a slower one.
> The Grudges you have built up will begin to fade after being out of combat for thirty seconds.
> A handful of offensive (Vengeance) abilities grow stronger with Grudge, by this I mean certain abilities gain added bonuses based on how much Grudge you have when casting the ability; the more Grudge, the better the bonuses. However most Vengeance abilities that improve with Grudge do not cost Grudge to execute. Here is an example:Rune-Etched Axe
You whirl your Axe around, dealing X damage to all enemies within X feet.
At 25 Grudges: Ignores 25% of the victims armor.
At 50 Grudges: Ignores 50% of the victims armor.
At 75 Grudges: Ignores 75% of the victims armor.
At 100 Grudges: Ignores 100% of the victims armor.> Most defensive (Stone) abilities cost Grudge to use, and contrary to the offensive abilities these abilities do not gain any strength based on how much Grudge you have built up.

So just to recap on the offensive / defensive aspect of using Grudge, your offensive capabilities is augmented by saving and building your Grudges, while your ability to perform and execute defensive skills is based on spending Grudge.

B) You and your Oath Friend – The presence of the Oath Friend ability within the Ironbreaker career path tells me one thing, Ironbreakers were meant to group! This ability is much to useful to pass up, for any situation, so while soloing is perfectly viable I suggest taking advantage of this incredibly potent option. I'm sure at least one person out there is asking themselves “What exactly is Oath Friend and why should I be excited about it?” Heres how the ability reads directly from the game:Oath Friend
No Cost / Instant Cast / 160 ft Range
*Only usable on group mates
You select a single groupmate to be your sworn Oath Friend. Each time they are attacked you gain 10 Grudges, and some of your abilities will affect them as well. As far as abilities that benefit your Oath Friend go, there are a ton of them. Everything from DPS buffs, to defensive bonuses, to healing, you can do a lot for your Oath Friend, just as he can do a lot for you. As far as picking and switching your Oath Friend goes, I find this to be very situational.

If you're job is to protect specific healers or soft casters, selecting them for your Oath Friend is a great idea as the defensive abilities you are using to peel your opponents off that person will be buffing them at the same time. Alternatively, if you are filling an MDPS roll, your Oath Friend should almost solely be another MDPS for Ancestor's Fury (covered in the 'Roles' section). You are able to switch your Oath Friend whenever you need to (save the 15 second ability cool-down) and can do it when moving if needed as long as your target is within range.

C) Mastery / Path Discussion – The easiest way to describe the Masteries or Paths of WAR would be to just call them “Talent Trees” (WoW reference), however the workings of the Mastery “ladders” as I am going to call them are significantly different. While putting points into a Mastery Ladder gives you additional abilities, tactics or morales (will touch on these two a bit later) much like WoW talents give you passive buffs to your spells or class, putting Mastery points into a specific Ladder buffs the effectiveness of all abilities from that path. Two quick points on all Mastery Ladders and Mastery Points:

> Every Mastery Ladder in WAR has 15 “rungs”. One point allows you to climb one rung of that ladder. Certain rungs on the ladder posses abilities, tactics or morales that you have the option of applying an additional Mastery Point to gain that particular ability. It is possible to spend 22 Mastery Points in any one Ladder, therefore gaining every possible benefit from that Ladder.
> At Rank 40 (maximum rank currently supported by the game) you will have accumulated 25 Mastery Points to spend. You begin to accumulate these points at Rank 11.
> Each career in WAR has three Mastery Paths (much like each class in WoW had three specific talent trees) and obviously the Ironbreaker is no exception. As an IB you have access to the following three paths:

Path of Vengeance – “A mastery focused on offense.” This ladder buffs your damaging abilities and compliments the offensive-defense role I described earlier. There isn't much more to say about this ladder than what has already been said or described, you will have a respectable damage output, with the increased ability to offensively pressure the other team into a defensive position. Also allows for a high amount of melee synergy during assist trains.

Path of Stone – “A mastery focused around defense and protection.” The Ladder focused on reducing incoming damage not only to yourself, but certainly your Oath Friend and your group as well. This will certainly be the Ladder of choice for PvE tanks as the added damage reduction from this Ladder is pretty intense, particularly through Block and Parry. I've debated Stone's RvR / PvP usefulness many, many times and still stand by my belief that the heavy defense Ironbreaker will be one of our strongest PvP paths. Right from the get-go all Ironbreakers have a number of controlling abilities (stuns, snares, roots and knock backs) and these are the bread and butter of playing a tanking career in RvR. You “Control Tank” the enemy players by peeling them off whomever you are watching, and you can certainly give your opponents offensive line a difficult time with well timed use of Morales like Strength in Numbers during a melee rush. Bottom line is while you won't be DPSing in RvR (or PvE) mastering Stone, you will still be a control machine with a power pack of on demand defensive options.

Path of Brotherhood – “A mastery path focused on supporting and bolstering you and your allies.” The purpose of this Ladder needs no explanation as both the name and quoted description tell you everything you need to know. While I don't see Brotherhood being a primary Ladder, it contains many high points that compliment both Vengeance and Stone.

*Note: Most of the preceding “Mastery Discussion” segment is mostly opinion (of myself / other BETA testers) and things I've tried out and seen done. It is in no way the “be-all-end-all” list of ways to play or definitive.

D) Tactics and Morales – I know this aspect of the game is not specific to the Ironbreaker career choice, but it seems to be a POI for people I've talked to so I decided I would do a quick section outlining what exactly these two mechanics are all about.

Tactics – Tactics are passive buffs you gain access to through ranking up, both in traditional experience, and renown points. There are three types of Tactics, Career, Renown, and Tome. Career Tactics are specific to your career (Ironbreaker or whatever you are playing) and will enhance your general abilities. Renown Tactics will benefit you in RvR and, of course Tome Tactics will cover the PvE side of things. You can have a total of 6 Tactics slotted (active) at once, which are made up of 4 Career Tactics, 1 Renown Tactic and 1 Tome Tactic. Unfortunately that formula is set in stone and you cannot trade one Career slot for lets say an additional Renown slot. You do have a number of Tactic Bars available to you, so you are certainly free to set up multiple combinations of Tactics for different situations and then switch between them. An example of a Career Tactic for Ironbreakers is:Rising Anger
1 Career Tactic Slot / Passive
Each time you hit an enemy you gain 5 Grudge. This effect will not trigger more than once per second. Morales – In addition to Grudge, and Action Points we have one last combat resource available to us. This final mechanic is called Morale. Morale is measured by a meter in the bottom right hand corner of the UI (User Interface) and builds as you fight in battle. The Morale meter has four ranks (25%, 50%, 75% and finally 100%) each rank having abilities of increasing power as you rise up the meter. As you progress through the game you will access Morale abilities (ranked 1-4) and you can place them in the Morale slots above the meter in the corresponding rank slot. Morale abilities require Morale built up to use, relative to their rank. Rank 1 Morale abilities require you to have at least 25% of the Morale meter full to execute, Rank 2 will need 50%, and so on up to Rank 4 requiring 100% of the Morale meter full to pull off. All Morale abilities regardless of rank will use all available Morale points when used. There are also three different types of Morale abilities (just like Tactics) and they are Career, Archetype and Racial. Career Morale abilities are only available to your specific career, “Archetype” Morales are shared across your career type, so for example all of the melee DPS classes can access a shared set of Morales. Similarity Racial Morales are shared within your race (Dwarves, High Elves, Greenskins, etc). An example of a Rank 1 Morale ability:Grapple Rank
1 Morale / Instant Cast / 5 ft Range
Both you and your target are held tightly in place for 10 seconds, and neither one of you can move. This effect cannot be dispelled or broken.E) Character Stats – Every MMO (or RPG for that matter) in the history of games has had a “Stat Point” system through which your playable character gains “Stats” (Vitality, Wounds, Strength, Agility, Dexterity, Intelligence, etc) and most often these “Stats” provided certain bonuses to your character (increased Block, Parry, Hit Points, Damage, Mana, Healing done, etc). Warhammer is of course no exception. In this section I will be running down what each “Stat” in WAR does, what benefits it provides and maybe even a little math!

Strength - Increases melee damage and reduces your opponents chance to block or parry attacks.
Ability Damage (+DPS) = ( Strength Value ) / ( 5.0 ) Auto-Attack Damage (+DPS) = ( Strength Value ) / ( 10.0 )

Ballistic Skill - Increases Ranged damage and reduces your opponents chance to block or evade attacks.
Ability Damage (+DPS) = ( Ballistic Skill ) / ( 5.0 ) Auto-Attack Damage (+DPS) = (Ballistic Skill ) / ( 10.0 )

Intelligence - Increases Magic damage and reduces your opponents chance to block or disrupt attacks.
Ability Damage (+DPS) = ( Intelligence Value ) / ( 5.0 )

Toughness - Reduces damage dealt to you by opponents.
Damage Reduction (-DPS) = ( Toughness ) / ( 5.0 )Damage Reduction Theoretical Example
At 182 Toughness our DR (Damage Reduction in DPS) is 36.4 DPS (182.0 / 5.0) taken away from our opponent (-DPS). For the purpose of this example we are just going to assume an opponent with 122.7 DPS.The DRx (Damage Reduction in %) is as follows:
( 36.4 DPS ) / ( 122.7 DPS ) * 100% = 29.7% Reduction Weapon Skill - Increases your chance to parry attacks and penetrate an opponents armor.
Armor Penetration (%) = ( Weapon Skill ) / ( 11.28 )

Initiative - Increases your chance to evade attacks, detect stealthed enemies, and lowers your chance to be critically hit.
Chance to be critically hit = (Level * 7.5 + 50) / Initiative * 0.1 * 100
Chance to evade = Initiative / (Level * 7.5 + 50) * .075 * 100

Willpower - Increases your chance to Disrupt attacks and increases healing dealt to allies.
Ability Healing (+DPS) = ( Willpower ) / ( 5.0 )

Wounds - Increases the amount of Health you have.
Increases Hit Points by = ( Wounds ) * ( 10.0 )
This leads us to the conclusion that 1 point of Wounds is equal to 10 Hit Points.

So your probably asking what does all this mean to an Ironbreaker and which stats are the most important right about now, yeah? Well all of the various stats in WAR are designed in such a way that everyone gets use out of every stat to a certain extent. So to summarize, if I had to categorize these stats, Strength, Ballistic Skill, Weapon Skill, and Intelligence are centered around offensive views, Toughness, Initiative and Wounds are of course focused around defense and Willpower could fit into either grouping as healing can be looked at as either offensive or defensive, and chance to disrupt is on the fence as well, depending on how you want to look at the situation.

Siyx

08-11-2008, 12:51 AM

4. Ironbreaker VS. The Sword Master: Similarities and Differences

Since the removal of the Knight of the Blazing Sun, people set on playing Order in WAR now only have two options for tanking classes. The Ironbreaker (duhhh) and the High Elf Sword Master. The first thing we need to realize when comparing these two classes, is that while they both fall into the category of “Tank” they are played and worked quite differently.

It is blatantly obvious right from the start that the Ironbreaker class was designed with defense in mind (even looking back to Warhammer lore the Ironbreakers were “immovable objects”). The Sword Master, on the other hand is “a cross between a U.S Marine and a proto-Jedi” (quoted from Paul Barnett), and we see right from the name of the character SWORD Master that they will be a more offensive tank. This theory holds true, when looking at the Order tanks the Ironbreaker is the hardcore physical defensive tank, determined to hold his enemies back and protect himself and his allies. Then we have our Sword Master who is a swift and cunning warrior, using her perfected balance (see what I did there, balance is the main Sword Master mechanic!) to put herself in the perfect position to strike down her enemies with a powerful barrage of magical and debuffing attacks.

Now don't get the idea that the Sword Master has no defense, because they are after all part of the tank family. The Path of Vaul has a handful of defensive options focused around group protection (once again the main focus of a tank in RvR is to protect his/her allies) but I feel the real defensive strength of the Sword Master comes through her offense, remember that line “the best defense is a strong offense?”, yeah. Many of the Sword Master's abilities involve, to some degree, applying a debuff to her target. If you debuff an opposing DPS player to the point where they are temporarily useless, or at least severely disadvantaged, is that not a defensive move?

The other major point I thought I would bring attention to is the ability to mitigate magical damage (mostly through resistance Tactics). The Ironbreaker has two abilities to counter incoming spell damage but that is not nearly as potent as a ton of passive resistances. I can see the Sword Master being the Anti-Magic tank (especially since the Black Guard got cut), at least for Order.

So is the Sword Master better than the Ironbreaker? No. No one career is “better” than another, they all serve different purposes, and perform their own roles well. So lets sum quickly sum up what this little essay has covered...

> Sword Masters have an offensive-defense, while Ironbreakers live by the defensive-offense.
> Sword Masters have a greater ability to mitigate magical damage, while Ironbreakers take the cake for physical.
> In terms of damage-dealing capabilities, the Sword Master feels stronger.
> In terms of personal / group / ally defense, the Ironbreaker feels stronger.

That concludes my look at the Ironbreaker class, the last section will involve some Q/A for questions I've been asked that aren't specifically covered in this report. Thanks for reading.

5. Questions and Answers!

Q: In what situations have you found it useful to physically block opponents via collision detection?
A: The situation that has lead me to blocking someone most often is when I am being ignored by DPS pushing straight for a healer or ranged DPS. When I get in front of someone and prevent movement for a bit, it usually leads that person to turn and attack me out of frustration of being denied.

Q: How would you rank stats in order of importance for an Ironbreaker? And how much difference does gear actually make?
A: I covered the ranking of stats in my report, it really depends on what role you intend on filling. I have yet to even touch gear at all though so I could give a little insight there. I'm not going to lie to you and say that gear doesn't matter, this is after all an MMO and gear progression will add longevity to the game, however gear is not as game-breaking as it was in WoW (best example), having somewhat sub-par gear does not put you at a severe disadvantage.

Q:Is there any Destruction class you had particular difficulty in defeating? Not necessarily a counter, but the class you struggled the most against?
A: First thing to keep in mind here is that this game isn't balanced around 1v1s. So if I had to answer this question, healing / support classes are tough since they all have some degree of offensive capability as well as the ability to heal themselves. Opposing tanks can also be a handful if they choose to play the defensive card.

Q: Are there disadvantages to being an Ironbreaker from a PVP perspective? Specifically, do Dwarf Ironbreakers take up less 'real estate' in-game, thus making them less desirable for collision detection 'walls'?
A: I get this one a lot. Disadvantages for Ironbreakers in PvP? I guess that depends on who you ask. IN MY OPINION our biggest disadvantage in PvP is also our biggest advantage, sometimes you come across good players who are absolutely intent on denying you from gaining any Grudge by ignoring you all together, and target switching off of your Oath Friend faster than you can re-cast it. Sometimes this can lead to getting caught Grudge starved in a bad spot.

Q: Are we able to tank PVE encounters in Renown reward gear effectively?
A: All PvE I've participated in was easily tank-able in a mix involving mostly Renown rewards, yes. Not to say this will hold true forever, however.

Q: Is there a set 'threat' rotation of abilities that Ironbreakers use to maximize threat on a particular PVE encounter?
A: Grudging Blow is basically your bread and butter for tanking, threat-wise. For PvE tanking you should have the Menace (100% additional threat) slotted. Other than that I find myself weaving in Vengeful Strike and Guarded Attack in as my Action Points permit for the defensive bonuses they provide. Not to forget, Guard also halves the targets threat with you, so placing that on potential high-threat group members will help.

Q: We've heard about the taunt mechanic, just how effective is it? What is the multiplier there on the damage? Is it to the point where another player is going to say, "Well, , if I don't hit this guy, he's just going to wipe me out"?
A: Once again, the answer to this one might vary depending on who you ask. The modifier is 30% damage taken (your opponent) for 15 seconds or until he hits you three times. In my experiences, other tanks tend to ignore the Taunt effect and continue on what they were doing but softer classes have been more partial to dropping the debuff quickly.

Q: How fair are the contribution points, or are we going to be a little undervalued in that regard? Perhaps overvalued?
A: If you play hard (you actually have to participate!) throughout the entire PQ, you will be fine in terms of contribution points. I often place first in contribution points, and I don't really do anything special. Keep in mind, placing first in contribution points doesn't guarantee you loot, I've placed first then placed 5th on the roll for the chest.

Q: Since the Hammerer was cut, we've assumed the Mastery trees have changed to allow for a more offensive-style of game-play. How is that working out?
A: As I've said probably 784 times, the offensive-defense potential of the class (mostly focused around the Vengeance Mastery Ladder) is invaluable, when played correctly.

Q: Can the 'Oath Friend' be changed 'on the fly', or is there a cool-down associated with designating it?
A: 15 second cool-down, but other than that, you are free to change your Oath Friend whenever the situation calls for it.

Q: First, do you know the actual buff you get for storing up your grudge to 100% and keeping it there?
A: Well if there is a buff for holding 100 Grudge, then I've completely missed it. However, the Career Tactic “Sweet Revenge” will increase your Critical Hit Chance by 15% if you are over 50 Grudge.

Q: What are the three Ironbreaker Masteries?
A: If it isn't already obvious, Path of Vengeance, Path of Stone, and Path of Brotherhood.

Q: Are Ironbreakers flexible enough to spec into dps/support, and still be able to provide effective defense to the team?
A: Yes, covered above.

Q: Lets say I was the only tank class in my RvR team and used the spec mentioned above. Will I be just as effective as using a defense/support spec?
A: Having only one tank is going to hurt, period. The group I play with (out of about 15) rolls with four tanks minimum. If for whatever reason I was put in that position, my spec would depend on if the team was melee or ranged heavy. If melee heavy then you would be more useful playing the offensive angle trying your best to protect your fellow melee. Same deal with ranged heavy, only you will be pushing them into focusing you instead of your team by being really annoying, and then being able to take all the hits.

Siyx

08-11-2008, 12:53 AM

6. Comprehensive Spell Index

>> Abilities

Auto-Attack --- Damaging
Core Ability - No Cost - 10 ft Range - Instant Cast - No Cooldown
Attack with your melee or ranged weapon.

Away With Ye --- Damaging
Stone - No Cost - 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - 20 Second Cooldown - 45 Grudge
Attack with your melee or ranged weapon.

Axe Toss --- Damaging
Core Ability - No Cost - 5/65 ft Range - 1 Second Cast - No Cooldown
A basic throwing attack that inflicts damage. Has a chance to deal extra damage to a severely injured target if you are behind them.

Binding Grudge --- Damaging
Vengeance - 20 Action Points - 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - 5 Second Cooldown
Improves with Grudge
You chop at your enemies legs, causing them to take damage over 10 seconds and snaring them, reducing their run speed by 40%.
Damage over time increases with Grudge.

Challenge --- Debuff
Core Ability - 30 Action Points - No Range - Instant Cast - 30 Second Cooldown
You challenge all opponents in front of you, forcing monsters to attack you. While challenged your opponents will deal 30% less damage to everyone other than you. This effect will fade after 15 seconds, or after your opponent has hit you 3 times.

Deflect Oil --- Buff
Core Ability - No Cost - No Range - Instant Cast - 5 Minute Cooldown
Channeled 10% reduction in damage taken by oil siege engines. You will also protect two other group mates within 1 feet. Only one effect of this type may be active on a player at a time.

Flee --- Buff
Core Ability - No Cost - No Range - Instant Cast - 30 Second Cooldown
You run away from battle in a mad panic, increasing your run speed by 30 for 10 seconds. You immediately lose all of your action points, any career mechanic points, and your Morale will start to drop and you will not start to regain action points until 10 seconds has passed.

Grip of Stone --- Debuff
Core Ability - 30 Action Points - No Range - Instant Cast - 60 Second Cooldown
You shatter the ground for 30 feet around you, rooting up to four enemies in place for 5 seconds. There is a 50% chance of the root breaking with every hit.

Grudge Unleashed --- Buff
Core Ability - No Cost - No Range - Instant Cast - 20 Second Cooldown - 40 Grudge
You focus on your Grudges to ready yourself for action, restoring 75 action points.

Grudging Blow --- Damaging
Stone - 30 Action Points - 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - No Cooldown
A vicious attack that deals damage, and causes monsters to hate you much more than normal.

Guard --- Buff
Core Ability - No Cost - 150 ft Range- Instant Cast - No Cooldown
Only usable on other players
You defend one of your allies and try to take attacks meant for them. As long as you are within 30 feet of them, any damage that they suffer, and any hate that they cause will be split evenly between the two of you.

Guarded Attack --- Damaging
Brotherhood - 30 Action Points - 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - No Cooldown
You deal damage to your target and prepare for their attacks, increasing your armor for 15 seconds. Your Oath Friends armor will also be increased if they are within 40 feet.

Heavy Blow --- Damaging
Vengeance - 40 Action Points - 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - No Cooldown
You strike a crushing blow dealing damage. Applies a damage over time effect if your Grudge is currently > 25 < 100.

Hold The Line! --- Buff
Core Ability - 20 Action Points / Sec - No Range - Instant Cast - 60 Second Cooldown
Requires Shield
You focus your defenses against enemy fire, increasing your chances to dodge and disrupt by 45% for 12 seconds. You will also defend all enemies behind you, up to 40 feet away, increasing their chances to dodge and disrupt by 15% as long as they remain at your back. Allies may have this effect stacked on them up to three times. This effect will end if you break your concentration or run out of action points.

Inspiring Attack --- Damaging
Brotherhood - 40 Action Points - 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - 5 Second Cooldown
Improves with Grudge
A brutal attack that deals damage to your target and inspires you to push the attack, increasing strength for 10 seconds, will also affect your Oath Friend if they are within 40 feet.
Willpower also increases with Grudge.

Juggernaut --- Buff
Core Ability - 50 Action Points- No Range - Instant Cast - 60 Second Cooldown
You become filled with unstoppable power, removing all snaring, rooting, silencing and disarming effects.

Kneecapper --- Damaging
Vengeance - 30 Action Points - 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - 5 Second Cooldown
Improves with Grudge
A painful strike to the enemies leg that deals damage.
Reduces the enemies chance to critical improves with Grudge.

Oath Friend --- Buff
Core Ability - No Cost - 160 ft Range - Instant Cast - 60 Second Cooldown
Only usable on group mates
You select a single group mate to be your sworn Oath Friend. Each time they are attacked you gain 10 Grudges and some of your abilities will effect them as well.

Punishing Blow --- Damaging
Brotherhood - 45 Action Points - 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - 20 Second Cooldown
You maim your target's legs, dealing damage and causing them to take damage for every half second they are in motion.

Rune-Etched Axe --- Damaging
Vengeance - 30 Action Points - 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - 30 Second Cooldown
Improves with Grudge
You whirl your axe around dealing damage to enemies within 0 feet.
Armor ignored improves with Grudge.

Shield of Reprisal --- Damaging
Stone - 40 Action Points - 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - 10 Second Cooldown
Requires Shield
Requires Block or Parry
A furious counterattack that deals damage to the target and grants you 30 Grudges.

Shield Sweep --- Damaging
Stone - No Cost - 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - 10 Second Cooldown- 30 Grudge
Requires Shield
You bring your shield around in a smashing hit, dealing damage to your target and up to two other enemies within 20 feet of them, you gain 10 Grudges for every additional enemy hit.

Stone Breaker --- Damaging
Vengeance - 30 Action Points- 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - 10 Second Cooldown
Improves with Grudge
Requires Great Weapon
A powerful attack that smashes through your opponents protections, dealing damage.
Armor reduced improves with Grudge.

Stubborn as Stone --- Buff
Brotherhood - No Cost - No Range - Instant Cast - No Cooldown
You set your mind to the task at hand and focus on what must be done, increasing your Corporeal resistance for 10 seconds, each time you are hit by magical damage while this effect is active, your auto-attack speed will be increased by 50% for 10 seconds. Also increases your Oath Friends resistance if they are within 40 feet.

Taunt --- Debuff
Core Ability - 20 Action Points - 65 ft Range - Instant Cast - 15 Second Cooldown
You enrage your opponent, interrupting any current building activities and forcing monsters to attack you. While taunted your opponent will take 30% more damage from your attacks. This effect will fade after 15 seconds, or after your opponent hits you 3 times.

Vengeful Strike --- Damaging
Stone - No Cost - 5 ft Range - Instant Cast - No Cooldown - 10 Grudge
You strike your enemy for damage and stubbornly push yourself to keep fighting, increasing your Toughness for 10 seconds. Your Oath Friend's Toughness will also be increased if they are within 40 feet.

Watch An' Learn --- Buff
Brotherhood - No Cost - No Range - Instant Cast - No Cooldown - 30 Grudge
Increases your Weapon Skill for 10 seconds, each time you hit an enemy your Oath Friend will gain 25 action points as long as they are within 40 feet.

>> Tactics

Ancestral Inheritance --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
Increases your armor by 511.

Dwarven Riposte --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
Whenever you parry you also build 30 Grudge. This effect will not occur more than once every three seconds.
Focused Offense --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
You deal 25% more damage, and all monsters will hate you 25% less than normal but you take 20% more damage any time you're hit.
Long-Held Grudge --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
All of your damaging attacks will cause additional hate based on Grudge.
At 25 Grudges: an additional 15 threat.
At 50 Grudges: an additional 20 threat.
At 75 Grudges: an additional 25 threat.
At 100 Grudges: an additional 30 threat.

Long Reach --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
Extends the range of Shield Sweep and Rune-Etched Axe by an additional 10 feet.

Menace --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
Monsters will hate you 100% more than normal on all attacks.

Relentless Training --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
Grudging Blow and Heavy Blow will cost 15 fewer action points.

Rising Anger --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
Each time you hit an enemy you gain 5 Grudge, this effect will not occur more than once per second.

Rugged --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
Increases your Toughness by 124

Seen It All Before --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
Snares last half duration against you and when you are critically hit by an enemy, the bonus damage that you suffer is reduced by 15%.

Seasoned Veteran --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
When you block an attack you will take 15% less damage for 5 seconds.

Stoutness of Stone --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
You recover from stuns and knock-downs 50% quicker. You will still gain immunity based on the original duration.

Stubbornness --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
Increases your Corporeal resistance by 195.

Sweet Revenge --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
Increases your chance to critically hit by 15% if you are above 50 Grudge.

Unstoppable Juggernaut --- 1 Career Slot
Passive
Juggernaut's cooldown reduced to 20 seconds.

>> Morales

Demolishing Strike --- Rank 1 Morale - Buff
Core Ability - Instant Cast - 5 ft Range - 60 Second Cooldown
A powerful melee attack that reduces armor deals damage over 15 seconds.

Distracting Bellow --- Rank 3 Morale - Buff
Core Ability - Instant Cast - 100 ft Range - 60 Second Cooldown
A loud shout that startles your target and all enemies within 30 feet of them reducing their damage for 10 seconds.

Grapple --- Rank 1 Morale - Buff
Core Ability - Instant Cast - 5 ft Range - 60 Second Cooldown
Both you and your target are held tightly in place for 10 seconds, and neither one of you can move. This effect cannot be dispelled or broken.

Gromril Plating --- Rank 3 Morale - Buff
Core Ability - Instant Cast - 5 ft Range - 60 Second Cooldown
Everyone in your group becomes protected by a bubble absorbing some damage for 20 seconds.

Immaculate Defense --- Rank 4 Morale - Buff
Core Ability - Instant Cast - No Range - 60 Second Cooldown
An impressive display of defense which reduces incoming damage for both you and all your group members within 65 feet of you for 10 seconds.

Raze --- Rank 2 Morale - Buff
Core Ability - Instant Cast - No Range - 60 Second Cooldown
Repeatedly attack all enemies in front of you, inflicting damage every second for 3 seconds, up to 65 feet away.

Rock Clutch --- Rank 1 Morale - Debuff
Core Ability - Instant Cast - 5 ft Range - 60 Second Cooldown
Deals damage to your target and roots them in place.

Shield Wall --- Rank 2 Morale - Buff
Core Ability - Instant Cast - No Range - 60 Second Cooldown
Increases your chance to block for 10 seconds.

Skin of Iron --- Rank 2 Morale - Buff
Core Ability - Instant Cast - No Range - 60 Second Cooldown
All damage you take is reduced by 100% for 10 seconds.

**Renown, Tome and Mastery spells will be added at a later date.

Squibbo

08-11-2008, 03:12 AM

Reserved space for when it's not 5:12 am and I can actually thing of some questions to ask.

r0n2

08-11-2008, 04:42 AM

Ok, so I'll start with a small question about PvE:
How much different is the killspeed of defence spec compared to a full offence specced Ironbreaker?

@Siyx: tnx in advance :)

Siyx

08-11-2008, 04:50 AM

Ok, so I'll start with a small question about PvE:
How much different is the killspeed of defence spec compared to a full offence specced Ironbreaker?

Short, non-NDA breaking answer is its not that much different. I'll get your question on my list and go into more specifics when I can.

logicalmayhem

08-11-2008, 05:21 AM

you should have made this thread when nda drooped is just gonna become a spam hole

Siyx

08-11-2008, 05:24 AM

you should have made this thread when nda drooped is just gonna become a spam hole

Point taken but thats partially my intention, I want to gather a healthy supply of questions offered by curious or prospective Ironbreaker players so when the NDA drops and I edit in my article I can have a nice Q/A section to accompany it.

Azerael Daemon

08-11-2008, 06:13 AM

Okay here goes....

1. Is the grudge mechanic only affected by teamates, or in RvR will it affected by all friendlies, or does it have a area range, or is it race limited to dwarves ect...?

2. Compared to the swordmaster, chosen and black orc, is the ironbreaker more effective at tanking, and how is this shown, i.e health values, armour values, more effective tauns ect.?

3. On the contary to the question above, does this mean that he possibly has less DPS potential or secondary effects?

4. What are the exact figures and facts of the grudge mechanic? I know the the more grudge built the "stronger" the ironbreaker becomes, but in what way? Does he gain more health and armour, or does his attacking speed and DPS increase?

5. Is there a limit to grudge or does it keep building?

6. Is grudge used in "grudge" attacks, or does it decrease at a fixed rate?

7. How much difference does an axe or a hammer make to your gameplay? Does the hammer have a slower attacking speed, but have more effects or higher damage? Does the axe have more rending effects, and more suited towards PvE gameplay?

8. Does armour affect attacking speed? So if you wear the heaviest, strongest armour around will it have a negative affect on your DPS, or will it not matter?

More to be posted later... Thanks for making this thread btw.

Festo

08-11-2008, 02:01 PM

you stole my avatar

change it!

:evil::evil::evil:

(spot reserved for commenting later)

Quecken

08-11-2008, 02:06 PM

...coming as soon as the NDA is lifted! :cool: I have 98% of the massive body currently typed up and ready to be posted however I am working on a Q/A list and would love a handful of questions from the Ironbreaker community to include so feel free to post your questions and chances are they will make the list.

Reserved space.

Ah. Splendid! A very good idea mate. Thank you!
As for now, I have no specific question. I have just been "insanely" interested in the IB since the frist day that the class was announced.
I'd just like to know if it is like the devs have described it. That it really can "do" PvP and RvR, and be effective.

Siyx

08-11-2008, 02:16 PM

Ah. Splendid! A very good idea mate. Thank you!
As for now, I have no specific question. I have just been "insanely" interested in the IB since the frist day that the class was announced.
I'd just like to know if it is like the devs have described it. That it really can "do" PvP and RvR, and be effective.

You'll probably shoot me for this answer but every career is perfectly viable in all aspects of the game. I've actually spent a lot of time addressing this topic in my article because the current stereotype of the 'MMO Tank' is PvE or bust basically.

DeaExMachina

08-11-2008, 02:29 PM

Siyx

08-11-2008, 02:54 PM

This one you can answer without breaking the NDA. I liked the idea of the Grudge mechanic in principle and asked my partner in crime to play an Ironbreaker alongside my Witch Hunter. Do opponents in RVR generally prefer to zerg the Ironbreaker first or do they actually take no account of his Grudge effects and still attack other players equally?

The answer to this question would change depending on who you asked, mostly because it depends on a few factors*; knowledge of the game, situation, and player ability. I can certainly see Ironbreakers being a high priority target for certain** assist trains as focusing and avoiding them both have merits. Its borderline impossible to say if players prefer to take certain action because what might be a preferred action in one situation might not be favorable in another.

In closing I will reference the law of MMORPG PvP combat: "That which has the most potential to die first, usually will."

*Will expand on this point when I can.

wjrasmussen

08-11-2008, 02:56 PM

...coming as soon as the NDA is lifted! :cool: I have 98% of the massive body currently typed up and ready to be posted however I am working on a Q/A list and would love a handful of questions from the Ironbreaker community to include so feel free to post your questions and chances are they will make the list.

Reserved space.
Putting your own name in a subject or title is automatic lose. If the guide is really great, word will spread on it's own.

Siyx

08-11-2008, 03:00 PM

Putting your own name in a subject or title is automatic lose. If the guide is really great, word will spread on it's own.

Basic human psychology, people want credit for their work otherwise we wouldn't have things like patents or copyrights. Either way you're entitled to your opinion but I'd appreciate if posts made in my thread are kept objective.

Thanks!

Edit: Also, this isn't really going to be a guide per-say, I won't be telling people how to play an Ironbreaker but will be providing a slew of information that people can take and analyze on their own.

Bûrri

08-11-2008, 04:08 PM

This's a really nice idea, Siyx, thank you for thinking of it and giving us a chance to ask questions in advance.

I'm not much of a one for statistics and all that stuff, but I am curious about how the Ironbreaker does in solo PVE situations.
I know he's pretty much MEANT to group up, and take advantage of the Grudge mechanics, but if he's alone, is he at a huge disadvantage ?

And i thought of another question...
as there's no hammerers now, we've assumed the mastery paths have changed to give a harder-hitting path, presumably with 2-hand weapons. How's that working out?

Thanks in advance.

Siyx

08-11-2008, 09:06 PM

Thanks for the interest and questions. Turns out most questions that have been asked so far have actually been covered in my article but it was actually a good check for me to go back through and edit a few sections to be more clear.

Hoping they drop the NDA soon, stay tuned.

TiraOfWar

08-11-2008, 11:19 PM

While I will be playing neither a tank nor Order side I would like to thank you for your effort and mention that I greatly look forward to reading what you have prepared.

1. In what situations have you found it useful to physically block opponents via collision detection?

2. How would you rank stats in order of importance for an Ironbreaker? And how much difference does gear actually make?

3. Is there any Destruction class you had particular difficulty in defeating? Not necessarily a counter, but the class you struggled the most against?

ToledoOhio

08-12-2008, 12:54 PM

Thanks for offering to do this. Here are my questions, and I'm sure a few of them are tainted by my experiences in WoW:

- What stats should we stack for a particular Mastery tree?

- Can the 'Oath Friend' be changed 'on the fly', or is there a cool-down associated with designating it?

- Coming from a WoW background, I am comfortable with terms such as 'MT' and 'Progression Content'. While I understand that WAR is RvR, there is a fair amount of PVE content. Will all PVE content be manageably tanked by all three Masteries, or will the Path of Stone be the no-brainer Mastery for people looking to tank the hardest-hitting PVE content?

- Are there disadvantages to being an Ironbreaker from a PVP perspective? Specifically, do Dwarf Ironbreakers take up less 'real estate' in-game, thus making them less desirable for collision detection 'walls'?

- Are we able to tank PVE encounters in Renown reward gear effectively?

- Is there a set 'threat' rotation of abilities that Ironbreakers use to maximize threat on a particular PVE encounter?

Blazyon

08-12-2008, 02:59 PM

I come from in a wow a very hardcore progression guild, where you either specced for raids or didn't raid. The fact of the matter is if you want to be at the front of progression, you have to min/max it.

That being said, if I wanted to MT for progression, would that gimp me in PvP compared to a pure pvp spec. And by gimp I mean make me in any way less effective as a whole, rather than simply having to learn to play a different way (fire mage vs frost mage in pvp are different play styles, each roughly equivalent in overall effectiveness).

Being forced to respec each time I want to pvp would be a serious turnoff.

BitWarrior

08-12-2008, 09:23 PM

Excellent idea, I'll be hitting this thread the second the NDA lifts. I hope you'll be able to include answers these questions:

1. We've heard about the taunt mechanic, just how effective is it? What is the multiplier there on the damage? Is it to the point where another player is going to say, "Well, , if I don't hit this guy, he's just going to wipe me out"?

2. Being that the Iron Breakers unique mechanic is grudge, is it more difficult for an Iron Breaker to tank in a PvE environment over his Destruction counterpart? Or are the AP abilities more than enough and the grudge bonuses don't really play much of a role in those situations?

3. In Warhammer lore, Iron Breakers are basically immovable objects. I'd love to be just a damage soaking fiend on the battlefield. If I spec fully into tanking, will I still be providing a strong enough role in RvR to warrant a space (by providing relevant buffs, etc), or is it best to do something more 50/50?

4. How fair are the contribution points, or are we going to be a little undervalued in that regard? Perhaps overvalued?

5. And most importantly, what are our available trophies?! :)

Thanks, mate!

Barab

08-12-2008, 10:08 PM

Hey Siyx whats your forum name on the beta forums ? I dont recognize the tag Siyx. Looks like I will be going IB over RP once release starts as well.

Siyx

08-13-2008, 01:08 AM

Hey Siyx whats your forum name on the beta forums ? I dont recognize the tag Siyx. Looks like I will be going IB over RP once release starts as well.

I never actually made a forum account, my schools ISP has it blocked for whatever reason. we have a petition to get a number of game related addresses opened up at the start of the new year though, hopefully that works out. Good to hear you will be playing an IB, need more people to think that way!

Excellent idea, I'll be hitting this thread the second the NDA lifts. In the meantime, I hope you'll be able to answer these questions:

1. We've heard about the taunt mechanic, just how effective is it? What is the multiplier there on the damage? Is it to the point where another player is going to say, "Well, , if I don't hit this guy, he's just going to wipe me out"?

2. Being that the Iron Breakers unique mechanic is grudge, is it more difficult for an Iron Breaker to tank in a PvE environment over his Destruction counterpart? Or are the AP abilities more than enough and the grudge bonuses don't really play much of a role in those situations?

3. In Warhammer lore, Iron Breakers are basically immovable objects. I'd love to be just a damage soaking fiend on the battlefield. If I spec fully into tanking, will I still be providing a strong enough role in RvR to warrant a space (by providing relevant buffs, etc), or is it best to do something more 50/50?

4. How fair are the contribution points, or are we going to be a little undervalued in that regard? Perhaps overvalued?

5. And most importantly, what are our available trophies?! :smile:

Thanks, mate!Unfortunately, pretty much everything you mentioned is protected at the moment. :(

lnquisitor

08-13-2008, 04:50 AM

Here are some questions for you.
First, do you know the actual buff you get for storing up your grudge to 100% and keeping it there?
Second, which have you found to be more effective, improoving heavy armor or increasing WS and toughness?

Siyx

08-13-2008, 05:03 AM

Paragonn

08-13-2008, 05:35 AM

I would like to know the difference between an ironbreaker that speccs more for dmg/offense versus an ironbreaker that specs more defensively (with a 1 hander).

I'm sure they're both effective in RvR however, i'm sure they fill very different roles...an inspection on these two roles would be awesome.

Quecken

08-13-2008, 05:42 AM

You'll probably shoot me for this answer but every career is perfectly viable in all aspects of the game. I've actually spent a lot of time addressing this topic in my article because the current stereotype of the 'MMO Tank' is PvE or bust basically.

Shoot you? No way.
Any information about the Ironbreaker I can get my hands on is more than welcome.

BitWarrior

08-13-2008, 08:15 AM

Unfortunately, pretty much everything you mentioned is protected at the moment. :(

...which is exactly why I'm asking for after the NDA lift ;) I don't ask questions to which the answers are readily available :)

EDIT: Ah, I see why you thought I wanted answers to those questions right now. I corrected the text in my original post to not confuse any longer :)

More smilies! :)

Nordland Infantry

08-13-2008, 04:47 PM

What are the three ironbreaker mastries?

Siyx

08-14-2008, 12:04 AM

Still have room for a few more questions to put in last minute as we wait for the NDA lift, if anyone has anything else on their mind.

DammazKron

08-14-2008, 12:59 AM

I think most of the information I was looking for has been posted as a question already.
I was looking forward to someone posting this sort of thing on NDA drop..

Thanks in advance :)

Geekcheck

08-14-2008, 10:32 AM

Can't wait to put my 2 cents in. :D

Arcton

08-14-2008, 10:42 AM

How does a dps specced IB's damage match up to a full melee DPS class?

How effectively has Mythic implemented tanking viability into PvP?

What type of stuns/snares/effects does the IB have access to? Does speccing into more tanking-oriented mastery trees increase the effects of your CC's?

Siyx

08-14-2008, 03:14 PM

sai

08-14-2008, 05:10 PM

Apologies if you've answered these questions:

Have you done any solo RvR during your beta tests?

Is the class effective at soloing other classes?

I heard the class actually moves slower than the other classes, making them easily kite-able are there abilities available which narrow the distance between the Ironbreaker and his target?

If you have solo'd other classes during RvR sessions, which have you found to be the most troublesome? Most laughable?

Have your successful 1v1 skirmishes been decided in a matter of seconds or minutes, provided both you and your target started with full health?

Can you theoretically "dump" all of your, well, i'll call it "rage" in reference to WoW's Warrior class(sorry if you're not familiar with WoW), into a single player, thus blowing him up?

I've read you say that "at the end of the day an Ironbreaker is still a tank and not mdps." To me that says that the Ironbreaker will be babysitting healers and rdps in battle. So, I'm hoping I'm wrong and that the statement is just a little ambiguous. No offense intended, just I'm still a little peeved about my Hammerer, so I'm trying to get excited about the Ironbreaker. Thank you for taking the time to answer these and the other questions posted. :D

Siyx

08-14-2008, 06:17 PM

Darkseid

08-15-2008, 02:50 PM

Can you duel wield as a Ironbreaker?

Paragonn

08-16-2008, 02:08 AM

I have no idea what renown rank and such you guys were able to get to, but i would like to see a few armour sets of the ironbreaker (preferably high-level armour sets, the higher the level the better :p )

Thanks in advance for this overview guide thingy...gonna be an awesome thing to keep me busy till launch :D

Arcton

08-16-2008, 09:54 AM

Covered, covered and, covered! :p

Yay! When NDA drops this will be the first place I come look.

Gure

08-16-2008, 09:34 PM

damn why cant there be someone like siyx for ALL the classes?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! :( like my little shaman

KeK

08-17-2008, 03:24 AM

Arcton

08-17-2008, 09:37 AM

first of all thanks for the article

1- To be a tank in pvp i dont think we have to "absorb" damage. we can stun / snare / disarm enemies attacking our clothies. And guard / taunt are still usable while wielding a 2 handed weapon. So the question is how viable it is to tank with 2 handed weapon while protecting ur friends with the skills i mentioned and hammering some orc heads in the meanwhile.

2 - Do you think ironbreakers will make the best 2 handed wielding tanks. or do u suggest me another class. i think ironbreakers are great for this role because of the grudge mechanic.

3- You rock ;)

To be fair, Swordmasters are designed as a 2h'd tank, so they might be the best. Also, with all the control options tanks are going to have, I think what we might see come release is that offensively spec'd tanks are focus fired due to their control+damage and lower mitigation than defensively spec'd tanks.

Either way I'm excited about the prospect of PvP tanking.

Akle007

08-17-2008, 11:45 AM

Q: Are Ironbreakers flexible enough to spec into dps/support, and still be able to provide effective defense to the team?

Q: Lets say I was the only tank class in my RvR team and used the spec mentioned above. Will I be just as effective as using a defense/support spec?

This next question is related to the second question.
Q: If I was the only tank class in my RvR team and used the dps/support spec, will I dish out substantial damage, or will I be deadweight for my team?

KeK

08-17-2008, 02:13 PM

To be fair, Swordmasters are designed as a 2h'd tank

where that info comes from?

Kill one man, and you are a murderer.
Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror.
Kill them all, and you are a god.
- Jean Rostand

Thats a cool quote ;)

Jiub

08-17-2008, 09:48 PM

To be fair, Swordmasters are designed as a 2h'd tank, so they might be the best. Also, with all the control options tanks are going to have, I think what we might see come release is that offensively spec'd tanks are focus fired due to their control+damage and lower mitigation than defensively spec'd tanks.

Either way I'm excited about the prospect of PvP tanking.

This is why you have a macro that switches between 1 hander and shield and 2 hander, so you charge into battle with your tanking weapons and then when you get enough grudge you pull out your 2 hander. Hopefully if all works out, they wont know what hit them and wont have time to readjust and focus you down.

KeK

08-17-2008, 11:29 PM

This is why you have a macro that switches between 1 hander and shield and 2 hander, so you charge into battle with your tanking weapons and then when you get enough grudge you pull out your 2 hander. Hopefully if all works out, they wont know what hit them and wont have time to readjust and focus you down.

i dont think thats is gonna work. yes it seems good on paper but in reality while u have sword and board u will have tank tactics on, heavily tank speced, and more defensive gear equipped. i dont think switching to 2h will make noticable dps boost. i bet going with shield
will be better because i guess defensive speced tanks gonna have some good attacks using shield. while 2h wont bring u that much.

ofcourse these are only guesses. i hope its effective. but i think that would be dreadfully overpowered.

Rod1337

08-17-2008, 11:38 PM

i dont think thats is gonna work. yes it seems good on paper but in reality while u have sword and board u will have tank tactics on, heavily tank speced, and more defensive gear equipped. i dont think switching to 2h will make noticable dps boost. i bet going with shield
will be better because i guess defensive speced tanks gonna have some good attacks using shield. while 2h wont bring u that much.

ofcourse these are only guesses. i hope its effective. but i think that would be dreadfully overpowered.

Considering there are moves that can only be used with 2handers then yes.

Anyway i really hope there is no such thing in WAR like swapping weapons in combat, it felt terribly annoying to have that macro. sure it was a must if you wanted to offtank but meh.

Siyx

08-18-2008, 02:50 AM

where that info comes from?

Sword Masters are designed to be a more offensive (among other things) style tank than the Ironbreaker.

As for this 2H VS. Defensive Style debate, there really isn't a winner because no matter which spec you decide to play, you are going to be tanking. You can do it with an offensive angle, or a defensive one (both have their merits and downfalls), at the end of the day, your still tanking. Also to clarify, any comments I have made about people playing offensively being useless were exclusively aimed at the people who don't realize that even while playing the offensive angle out, there is much more to it than doing more damage.

If you are looking at this class because you want to go slam out some big numbers and nothing else, while you may be able to, you are ignoring 75% of the class and might want to consider a class designed and focused around the damage.

Now if you're wanting to see some numbers, and be up in the front lines with your shiny two-handed axe on, but also realize you have access to a wide array of control and defense abilities and a host of allies depending on you to keep them alive, then you're in the right place.

Sorry for my absence on the forums recently, was out of town for the weekend. Still waiting on that NDA lift. :cool:

KeK

08-18-2008, 04:35 AM

Sword Masters are designed to be a more offensive (among other things) style tank than the Ironbreaker.

As for this 2H VS. Defensive Style debate, there really isn't a winner because no matter which spec you decide to play, you are going to be tanking. You can do it with an offensive angle, or a defensive one (both have their merits and downfalls), at the end of the day, your still tanking. Also to clarify, any comments I have made about people playing offensively being useless were exclusively aimed at the people who don't realize that even while playing the offensive angle out, there is much more to it than doing more damage.

If you are looking at this class because you want to go slam out some big numbers and nothing else, while you may be able to, you are ignoring 75% of the class and might want to consider a class designed and focused around the damage.

Now if you're wanting to see some numbers, and be up in the front lines with your shiny two-handed axe on, but also realize you have access to a wide array of control and defense abilities and a host of allies depending on you to keep them alive, then you're in the right place.

Sorry for my absence on the forums recently, was out of town for the weekend. Still waiting on that NDA lift. :cool:

i dont want a pure melee dps class.
i want a DPS / Util class which is half tank half dps.
I want to guard / stun / snare / disarm with a 2h. And get most of the % 30 taunt dmg buff. These are only wishes thought. I havent played one yet so i dont know how powerful / gimped my playstyle will be so do u think that works.

I wont insist on playing in that role if it sucks compared to what a IB with sword n board can do. But i think it will be as good as a pure tank in RvR.

Jiub

08-18-2008, 04:46 AM

i dont think thats is gonna work. yes it seems good on paper but in reality while u have sword and board u will have tank tactics on, heavily tank speced, and more defensive gear equipped. i dont think switching to 2h will make noticable dps boost. i bet going with shield
will be better because i guess defensive speced tanks gonna have some good attacks using shield. while 2h wont bring u that much.

ofcourse these are only guesses. i hope its effective. but i think that would be dreadfully overpowered.

It's not about what your spec is or tactics actually are, it's about making the opponents believe you are defensive spec, so they won't focus fire you. Then once the battle is in full swing you can bring out your 2 hander to start doing more damage and hopefully by then they wont be able to coordinate an attack on you.

Siyx

08-18-2008, 04:55 AM

i dont want a pure melee dps class.
i want a DPS / Util class which is half tank half dps.
I want to guard / stun / snare / disarm with a 2h. And get most of the % 30 taunt dmg buff. These are only wishes thought. I havent played one yet so i dont know how powerful / gimped my playstyle will be so do u think that works.

I wont insist on playing in that role if it sucks compared to what a IB with sword n board can do. But i think it will be as good as a pure tank in RvR.

This is my point right here. You've described exactly what an offensively played Ironbreaker should be doing. Nothing about the play-style is "gimp" if you understand the mechanics of the class enough to play that angle correctly.

2H VS. Sword and Board? They both serve strong purposes, and they both have pros and cons, like anything else.

KeK

08-18-2008, 05:31 AM

2H VS. Sword and Board? They both serve strong purposes, and they both have pros and cons, like anything else.

Thats what i wanted to hear, thanks ;)

Arcton

08-18-2008, 11:19 AM

NDA lift tomorrow, this will be the first place I come. :D

Geekcheck

08-18-2008, 11:32 AM

As soon as the NDA is lifted, I'll be adding my 2 cents in. The IB is a very interesting class even as a tank in PvP, but does have it caveats. Hopefully once those of us in Beta have a chance to share our personal experiences alot of these misconceptions can finally be cleared up.

KeK

08-18-2008, 11:46 AM

devil : post it now! posting it few hours early wont harm anybody :)

angel : you should respect the NDA!

aaaaaaaaaaaargh!.. cant wait.

Mazari

08-18-2008, 02:45 PM

Sword Masters are designed to be a more offensive (among other things) style tank than the Ironbreaker.

As for this 2H VS. Defensive Style debate, there really isn't a winner because no matter which spec you decide to play, you are going to be tanking. You can do it with an offensive angle, or a defensive one (both have their merits and downfalls), at the end of the day, your still tanking. Also to clarify, any comments I have made about people playing offensively being useless were exclusively aimed at the people who don't realize that even while playing the offensive angle out, there is much more to it than doing more damage.

If you are looking at this class because you want to go slam out some big numbers and nothing else, while you may be able to, you are ignoring 75% of the class and might want to consider a class designed and focused around the damage.

Now if you're wanting to see some numbers, and be up in the front lines with your shiny two-handed axe on, but also realize you have access to a wide array of control and defense abilities and a host of allies depending on you to keep them alive, then you're in the right place.

Sorry for my absence on the forums recently, was out of town for the weekend. Still waiting on that NDA lift. :cool:

About Swordmasters being more offensive: well, for me both classes are pretty offensive when specced to do DMG and actually theres no gap between them.

Ill wait till NDA is lifted tomorrow so i can add to discussions as i have played plenty of IBs 1-32 ^^ along with few other classes.

My main will be IB you can figure the rest for now if hes any good *hint*

EDIT: i just want to tell everyone who reads this - Defensive tanks WILL be a viable option for PvP and will find many situations that they will be VERY useful in PvP. Those who like 1h/S will have fun and those who like 2h will do as well.

PS Ive been in beta for over a year and had here account on WA since 2006 but i have changed nickname and thus newly created account when the game is near release!

EDIT:

Tomorrow once NDA is lifted ill post my RvR PvP Video with Ironbreaker, roughly 100mb :> and around 5:20 long, get your hands ready :)

Kainen

08-18-2008, 06:46 PM

I think i'm going to be calling this thread home for a long time from tomorrow onwards!

Rod1337

08-18-2008, 09:24 PM

Mazari

08-18-2008, 11:57 PM

Question: Is weapon switching necessary in battle?

I know some moves are 2hand specific, does that means that as swordnboard i will have to constantly macro weapons to use them? or can i be effective enough with sword and board so that i dont have to switch in battle.

you can't switch weapons in combat ;) that's why you make decisions before

For vids ill be making new thread and ill be answering there questions if asked. One will be rvr vid and second will be showing how durable in pve IB can be when i was doing a test, one is 100mb other is 18mb, expect links to be posted as soon as i see nda lifted [name and log still are blacked out hehe]

Paragonn

08-19-2008, 12:15 AM

pls post high quality vids with a good compression rate..please :D

i would love to see the detail
:)

Siyx

08-19-2008, 12:22 AM

Thanks for the vids Maz, I also have a ton of footage of my own, and I will probably whip it into sort of a showcase.

The more videos going around the better.

Mazari

08-19-2008, 01:09 AM

Well they are half of 1920x1200 [res i play at with forced aax16 and afx16] so they are quite high resolution ^^. Im using Xvid Codec for compression and i also sped up movie approx 10-20% depending on the part of the movie so i could upload it on RS in 1 file not few. The RvR one isnt meant to show any skill or anything since i did this mostly for fun checking different things and well, no healer = GY runs ^^. I will make more vids once NDA is lifted. I also have Vid featuring Keeps [4 of them T3] no rvr, just the buildings.

I can just say that IB in pvp is very fun and enjoyable class with shield and with 2h. In vid however its 2h ;)

KeK

08-19-2008, 01:41 AM

I can just say that IB in pvp is very fun and enjoyable class with shield and with 2h. In vid however its 2h ;)

That is great...

Paragonn

08-19-2008, 03:30 AM

Thanks Maz and Siv.

that sounds AWESOME :D

im tired of youtube vids where you stuggle to see where the ironbreaker ends and the grounds around it begins ;)

Mazari

08-19-2008, 04:11 AM

after newly posted trailer for WAR we are just step away from NDA lift

Paragonn

08-19-2008, 04:17 AM

Whats lame though is it's like 13:30 here, and still nothing...stoopid time zones :p

Mazari

08-19-2008, 04:21 AM

aye 13:22 here

Kayless

08-19-2008, 04:29 AM

So where's all the new info then... come on it's been Tuesday for over 12 hours for me... keep up! ;)

Mazari

08-19-2008, 04:34 AM

dont worry :) links are long time ready just waiting to be posted [rapidshare], now only official word is needed

Siyx

08-19-2008, 04:36 AM

Eww, Rapidshare, I think I will at least make a WHMovies account. ;)

Mazari

08-19-2008, 04:50 AM

ye but im at work and i got SLOOOOW wifi here and am unable to upload to whmovies and thus RS to which i uploaded before

ill later do it on whmovies.com as i prefer this site rather than warhammermovies.com

Siyx

08-19-2008, 04:56 AM

S'all good, was just joking with you. I was really hoping they would drop the NDA early so I could post my writeup before I had to bail for work but no such luck.

Check back here at about 3 eastern this afternoon, the NDA should be down, I'll be home and promptly post for you guys that have been waiting so patiently! :-P

Mazari

08-19-2008, 05:00 AM

EDIT: i got WHM to work :) so once nda goes poof ill upload, maybe even today they will approve vid

Arcton

08-19-2008, 08:06 AM

Rawr, wtb NDA drop and all your good infos. :(

Jiub

08-19-2008, 08:57 AM

Mazari

08-19-2008, 09:44 AM

I have read that Ironbreakers are very Overpowered in the current beta. Is this true in any way? To be honest, this would be a deal breaker for me. I don't like being overpowered plus I dont want my main class to be one of those "flavor of the month" classes.

its not true, you know how it is

warrior: mages are overpowered
mages: warlocks are overpowered
warlocks: rogues are overpowered
rogues: warriors are overpowered

Theres no OP classes, just a different perceptions when plauying some classes. It has been said tanks are meant to have an adventage over Melee DPS classes, ranged vs tanks MDPS vs ranged etc

Rod1337

08-19-2008, 12:10 PM

I can understand why they are calling the Ironbreaker OP, currently it is the ONLY tank career forced to tank by its mechanic.......................................... .................................................. ....................................To my understanding tanking is a very powerful tool, just like healing is, but only in the IB you are actually forced to do so despite your intentions........................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ......See A Chosen, Borc or SM arent restricted by anything tom DPS, if they want to DPS they can without tanking, the only tanking they will be doing maybe is taunt............................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............But a DPS ironbreaker cant DPS if he or his oathfriend aint taking damage, because he wont be able to build the grudge he needs, that forces the IB to actually use challenge, guard and oathfriend tag to focus attacks on him in order to start the juggernaut going, also since it takes a while to build up,............................................... .................................................. .................................................. ......... its logical for an IB to look for a friendly healer and slap OF on him and protect him.Considering that a tank pretty much negates ganking, i can see a lot of MDPS crying over the fact that they cant simply jump on a squishy and get a kill, or because they get frustrated by trying to go thnrough a squishy when a tank is on his back, or guard is on.Another thing is that most likely a fully grudged up IB is in fact "overpowered" and will beat all other tanks, but they fail to realize that to get to that point you had to play your cards right............................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............So im guessing this is the people crying for IB.. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. 1.- MDPS that cant gank.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........................2.- People facing a fully grudged up IB but are too shortsighted, and didnt saw the IB slowly growing into grudgemachine.

Rod1337

08-19-2008, 12:12 PM

Sorry for Wall of Text but my browser keeps eating the space.

Ariah

08-19-2008, 12:47 PM

"Folks,

As of now, the Non Disclosure portions of our Beta Testing Agreement is now officially lifted. From this point on players may now freely talk about their experiences in the game as well as post screenshots, videos, etc. We will be sending an email out to all our current players with full details about the lift over the next 24 hours. Players with access to our forums can also see the letter there. Players may not talk about nor reprint posts from our forums and our Test Servers (currently Deathsword) are still fully covered by the confidentiality portions of our Beta Testing Agreement. So, other than that, free feel to talk about and share your experiences in WAR.

My thanks go out to everyone who has beta tested and continues to beta test WAR. It has been with your help and feedback that WAR is where it is today. We really appreciate your effort.

WAR is almost upon us!

Mark Jacobs
VP, GM Mythic Entertainment"

finally!:D

KeK

08-19-2008, 12:57 PM

i mailed Siyx to let him know NDA is lifted lol.

i just cant wait...

Siyx

08-19-2008, 01:15 PM

Sorry I was 30 minutes late, was talking a nap:cool:

Writeup is posted.

Gorthor

08-19-2008, 01:32 PM

its not true, you know how it is

warrior: mages are overpowered
mages: warlocks are overpowered
warlocks: rogues are overpowered
rogues: warriors are overpowered

Theres no OP classes, just a different perceptions when plauying some classes. It has been said tanks are meant to have an adventage over Melee DPS classes, ranged vs tanks MDPS vs ranged etc
:rolleyes: Yes, every class is balanced.

IBs are arguably the best class in the game, mainly because it's too easy to build grudge and keep it high, and also because they have slightly too much CC and armour. Only BWs, Sorcs and a very well-played Chosen can compete with IB.

It's a fun class anyway, good range of abilities and decent dps even without max grudge.

Gendry

08-19-2008, 01:33 PM

Siyx, your write-up pretty much made my decision for me. I love the ironbreaker even more now, and I am fairly certain I'll be rolling a Vengeance Ironbreaker

Siyx

08-19-2008, 01:42 PM

Siyx, your write-up pretty much made my decision for me. I love the ironbreaker even more now, and I am fairly certain I'll be rolling a Vengeance Ironbreaker

Glad to hear I helped you make up your mind! :cool:

Arcton

08-19-2008, 01:50 PM

Thanks so much for the write up, really appreciate it. :D

ToledoOhio

08-19-2008, 01:56 PM

Thanks for your write-up, and for answering my questions. I am so stoked to play this class now.

Mazari

08-19-2008, 02:01 PM

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1142078#post1142078

Enjoy

Mazari

08-19-2008, 02:07 PM

Great write-up Siyx, you saved me a lot of time XD

Siyx

08-19-2008, 02:14 PM

Thanks buddy, it was a long haul, I and re-wrote most of it multiple times to get it sounding the way I wanted but it was all worth it if it helped some new (and old alike) IB's along their way.

BTW Nice videos, I'm going to have to step it up with mine.

Jinoda

08-19-2008, 02:29 PM

Thanks for the great write-up Siyx!

I apologize if I just missed the answer to this, but I have just one question that I can think of: How obvious is it to both opposing players and my target when I change my Oath Friend?

You said "good players who are absolutely intent on denying you from gaining any Grudge by ignoring you all together, and target switching off of your Oath Friend faster than you can re-cast it.", so I assume it must be obvious enough to them, but I've not seen any videos or screens on it.

I've been looking forward to playing an IB for months now, and your guide really helped cement that idea in my head, thanks again!

Mazari

08-19-2008, 02:31 PM

yay, i just hit 128.5% block chance on my Black Orc hehe few tactics + da best plan + cant hit me = impenetrable wall,

I still wonder why Blorcs Cant hit me is so strong compared to IBs equivalent [which sucks ;p]

Siyx

08-19-2008, 02:31 PM

There is a small animation that can be easily overlooked but if you make it a point to be watching for the switches you can tell.

Clangeddin

08-19-2008, 02:35 PM

Is it me or Earthen Renewal is very underpowered as a rank 4 morale ability? I believe runepriest get an identhical rank 4 morale (Shield of Valaya) that heals and gives AP for triple or four times the amount...

Now, I'm not saying that it should heal as much as the Rune Priest, cause we are a tanking class and the fact that we already have some heals if specced is good news, but maybe they could add a third effect to it? Something like increasing your grudge while active over time?

...

omg the game is not even out yet, I haven't played beta and I'm already whining about my class, jeez. sorry. :oops:

However, it's a serious question, doesn't Earthen Renewal feel lacklustre as it stands?

P.S. Thanks for the great write-up ^^

Siyx

08-19-2008, 02:39 PM

I didn't do extensive testing with Earthen Renewal but for the time I spent with it, it did feel kind of weak. Mind you, the more people you are able to affect with the healing increases the effective so if you're using it to heal maybe two others, then it will feel almost completely useless.

Mazari

08-19-2008, 02:40 PM

So you know guys, some classes including Magus, Engineer, Squig Herder, Swordmaster, Ironbreaker Marauder Which Elf and Which Hunter will be changed in next major patch!

All for the good!

Siyx

08-19-2008, 03:02 PM

Yup yup. Feel free to keep asking questions, I know some things got left out of the guide, also feel free to AIM me if you want a discussion on something. People seem to be finding it, so apparently its around here somewhere.

Kimmurial

08-19-2008, 03:05 PM

Siyx

08-19-2008, 03:07 PM

I played an Ironbreaker a little in closed beta and noticed that i get less ''participation'' points in PQ's when im tryin to tank then when i did with my Runepriest and healed/ did damage

Am i wrong ?

-Kim

I didn't notice that at all, as long as you play hard throughout the entire quest you should have no problems, tanks get a very fair amount of contribution points.

Spamismeat

08-19-2008, 03:07 PM

Nice, thanks for the info man. My only question (Is the oath Friend switch noticeable) was answered so thanks again!

Mazari

08-19-2008, 03:16 PM

Our path stuff needs an improvement definitely, like avenging the debt which is very weak, oathstone which is nowhere enar good and not even bit close to cant hit me of a black orc, grumble and mutter etc.

Siyx

08-19-2008, 03:30 PM

Agreed, especially on the Oathstone point, needs basically a major overhaul before I would even think of taking it.

Paragonn

08-19-2008, 03:33 PM

sephentos

08-19-2008, 03:39 PM

Hello im not making an ironbreaker as a main but i have read your review and thoroughly enjoyed it so i would like to thank you for spending so much time writing up all your expirence in the beta :)

Clangeddin

08-19-2008, 03:41 PM

The only problem I see with Grumble and Mutter is the excessive Grudge Cost. 20 Grudge every 3 seconds seems an overkill, considering that you can't even stack more than 100 Grudge, the only way for this skill to last the full duration is to be in the thick of the battle where you or you are oathfriend are being beaten upon constantly. Maybe a 10 Grudge every 3 seconds would be more reasonable?
Other than that, the skill seems fine. (Again remember that we are a tanking class, making self heals too poweful could lead us to being overpowered)

It's Earthen Renewal that totally baffles me. I've seen on profiles of war database a rank 31 Ironbreaker with 5970 hp. A runepriest of the same rank had 4920 hp. 600 hp and 80 ap over 9 seconds for a character of this rank from a RANK 4 MORALE ability really seems a waste of the morale bar. It would be lacklustre if it was an instant heal, but *whew* it's even a heal over time >_>
I'd rather use a RANK 2 Iron Skin than this. (Divine Shield FTW! ^^)

Siyx

08-19-2008, 03:41 PM

yea, i was looking at the mastery stuff, and most of them seem very under-whelming.

Please can you correct me if i'm wrong but looking at the top ability and moral ability:

stone: "strenght in numbers" seem quite powerful, especially in tight situations where the opposition is about to push you back.

oathstone seems to be purely for pve tanking (?)

brotherhood: earthen renewal was mentioned above. Is it worth it? (even in a ful group of six?)

grumble and mutter seems completely worthless (?)

also, how significant a boost is it to those core abilities in the mastery ladders? The skills that are improves by placing points in the tree. Is it a significant boost to place 15 points in there even if you don't purchase the 15 point moral ability?

Your assessment of Strength in Numbers is basically what my impression of the ability was, and when testing found it very, very powerful in specific situations.

I don't even think I would take the current Oathstone, even for sole PvE tanking.

If you are going to be running with a lot of Ironbreakers, I could see having one ER Ironbreaker being an asset to the group, but nothing gamebreaking.

Agreed on Grumble and Mutter, the cost is far to high for the yield.

The core ability boost is fairly significant to the point where you can certainly notice a difference if you say go 15 deep in Vengeance, hit things, then respec out, you will notice.

Amar

08-19-2008, 03:46 PM

I never really take the 15th level Rank 4 Mastery Morales either way, although they are nice I have always found a better spot for that mastery point.

Arrain

08-19-2008, 03:49 PM

Paragonn

08-19-2008, 03:56 PM

Thanks for the response Sivx :) guess we'll have to wait 'n' see if they alter them slightly before launch. I think i'm trying to stave off boredom by trying to figure out how im going to spend my points :p

Something i also noticed from Mazari's video:

do you gain grudge if you block/parry. If you don't, do you specifically need to avoid parry/block stats or doesnt the gear really contain those?

<3 the guide btw ;)

Siyx

08-19-2008, 04:03 PM

Noticed a question from one of the first pages that's also been on my mind for a while, regarding how the Ironbreaker fares in PvE with regards to their grudge-mechanic. I'm somewhat clueless about how the finer details for the different tank class skills work, so I could be horribly wrong in my assumptions. But doesn't f.ex the Swordmaster have a combo-based system, while the Ironbreaker 'relies' on the oath-brother? Does this mean an IB in PvE that's trying to soak up all the damage will eventually run into problems due to it, or does it work in a 'person X did too much damage and is now being beaten by *insert monster* -> the damage X takes gives our IB a nice boost to let him more easily deal with the situation'?

Apologies if this has already been answered and I managed to avoid noticing.

I've never been a giant PvE nut but I'll do my best to answer this for you. The Grudge mechanic is fairly simple in regards to how you build up your Grudges, you simply get hit, I find this to be absolutely ideal for tanking a monster as the more you get hit, the more you will be able to do. The Oath Friend mechanics help in situations where you are Grudge starved (you gain 10 Grudge every time your Oath Friend takes a hit) and when the person you have Oath Friended needs the benefits using certain abilities provide.

Oath Friend in PvE to me seems somewhat trivial as if you are main-tanking an encounter, other people should not be taking (significant) damage, you could I guess apply Oath Friend to your off-tank for additional Grudge gain.

If thats not what you were looking for, reply again to clarify.

do you gain grudge if you block/parry. If you don't, do you specifically need to avoid parry/block stats or doesnt the gear really contain those?

You gain Block and Parry through core stats, to the best of my knowledge you will not find an item with "Increases Parry / Block by X%". I also believe there is a Tactic that builds Grudge whenever you parry an incoming attack.

Clangeddin

08-19-2008, 04:06 PM

Oath Friend in PvE to me seems somewhat trivial as if you are main-tanking an encounter, other people should not be taking (significant) damage, you could I guess apply Oath Friend to your off-tank for additional Grudge gain.

If thats not what you were looking for, reply again to clarify.

I believe that Oath Friend is designed in PvE for those boss encounters where tank-switching is needed.
I might be wrong, but I after seeing abilities like Oathbound I have the feeling that it's one of the design reasons of Oathfriend for PvE.

Arrain

08-19-2008, 04:07 PM

Thanks for the answer, gave me a clearer picture of how grudge works and put my worries to rest :)

Siyx

08-19-2008, 04:10 PM

I believe that Oath Friend is designed in PvE for those boss encounters where tank-switching is needed.
I might be wrong, but I after seeing abilities like Oathbound I have the feeling that it's one of the design reasons of Oathfriend for PvE.

This makes sense, I sort of eluded to this conclusion with my off-tank comment,

DuckyPond

08-19-2008, 04:32 PM

Don't know if this has been answered, but how do the defensive capabilities of the Ironbreaker stack up against the Black Orc? Do you notice that either one goes down much quicker than the other?

Magdain

08-19-2008, 04:45 PM

Siyx

08-19-2008, 04:56 PM

How tied to different roles are you based on spec? For example, if I spec Vengeance/Brotherhood do I lose enough effectiveness with a shield to make it not worth using in rvr or pve content?

On a related note how versatile does the class play out in rvr? Can I switch freely to a shield and play a peel role when my healers & casters are in danger then put on a great axe and push forward offensively when they're safe? Obviously I wouldn't expect to be a MDPS powerhouse playing like this but effective enough to not be laughed at.

I ask because after looking at the talents, Stone looks quite unappealing for RvR. A lot of the points are spent towards increasing your defensive stats with little or no effect for your group, which is very PvE centric.

Cheers on everything so far, well written and it has been a great help.

With the lack of weapon switching in combat, you're pretty tied to your roll with your Mastery choices (at least between Vengeance and Stone). A handful of the later Vengeance abilities requires the use of a Great Weapon to execute, so using a shield isn't really worth it.

As far as PvE goes, I could still see you being an effective off-tank as Vengeance with a shield, if you need to switch between DPSing and assist tanking on occasion.

I've tried both Vengeance and Stone for RvR, and Stone isn't as bad as it looks, in terms of PvP. Obviously it is the choice Mastery for those PvE tanks too. :cool:

Gendry

08-19-2008, 05:57 PM

Quick question for ya siyx;

How well does mixing the career masteries go? If I want to go mainly vengeance, but to not lose a ton of defense, also side spec in Stone. How well would that work out? Or is it even advisable?

Or even, how do tri specs work? If I were to want to go 10 v-10 s-5 b? Or any other mix for that matter?

Siyx

08-19-2008, 06:11 PM

Vengeance / Stone could be an option but I wouldn't advise it, you would be trying to split yourself into filling two completely different roles, and pretty much failing at both. Same goes for tri-specs.

The way I see it is Vengeance / Stone are our "primary" Masteries, with Brotherhood having strong abilities to compliment both.

Vengeance / Brotherhood or Stone / Brotherhood mixtures are fine and work pretty well. For the most part I neglected to take the 15th rank Morales (with the exception of Vengeance) as most of them are underwhelming. When I played Vengeance it was a V/BH hybrid for sure.

Hope that helps.

Ard Righ

08-19-2008, 06:56 PM

:rolleyes: Yes, every class is balanced.

IBs are arguably the best class in the game, mainly because it's too easy to build grudge and keep it high, and also because they have slightly too much CC and armour. Only BWs, Sorcs and a very well-played Chosen can compete with IB.

It's a fun class anyway, good range of abilities and decent dps even without max grudge.

Let me break this fallacy right now. Ironbreakers are not the best class in the game, they are not invincible, they are not OP, they are not going to need a nerfbat, and they are not the class that everyone rolls because they want "3Zm0d3".

Ironbreakers have had a lot of work done to get them where they are. There is feedback which cannot be posted, but let me assure you that until recently, Ironbreakers were a fairly weak class, that used a lot of Grudge points to do not a lot.

The overall balance of the game is shaping up very nicely. There is no 1v1 balance in this game, it's group-balanced for RvR. Every class has a nemesis, and until everything is final, there is still a lot that can be changed.

From everything that I have seen so far, the Destruction classes have higher overall damage than all of the Order classes, with the exception perhaps of BW and AM.
The Order classes tend to balance the lower damage output by having some better mitigation through armour and the like.

The SM and IB do a good job for what abilities they have been given, but when you consider that Destruction classes have a number of group-wide auras that can stack, and IB has 2 abilities that are single-target and don't stack, you see where I am heading.

There is no way in the world that IB is the class that is the best in the game, at the current time.

Siyx

08-19-2008, 07:40 PM

Well said Ard, well said.

Gendry

08-19-2008, 07:53 PM

Until I manage to guild up(or manage to convince my RL friends that are still in WoW to make the switch like I am to set one up) I'll be traveling with a small group, probably only 2-3 other people.

From the looks of it my group is

Me-Iron breaker, an engineer, and an iron breaker.

And I'm wondering how exactly do IBs, and hell, ANYONE, fair as a relatively small group in open RvR? I fully expect to be rolled by large groups, but are there a fair number of smaller groups running around? Can we expect our fights to be joined by our other dwarf brethren?

And as a mechanic question, how viable is to make another IB my Oathfriend and vis versa? Does the extra mitigation/defense make duo IBs that powerful? And do oathfriend benefits stack?(Say two IBs make the same healer their oathfriend, does that healer get double the benefits?)

Siyx

08-19-2008, 08:16 PM

As far as the small group PvP goes, when its just me and a couple friends on and we want some action (smallest I've played is about 5 people) we just roll with what a few of my friends have dubbed our "gank squad" and fortunately it seems others have had a similar idea. Usually we find another smaller-ish group and it usually evolves into a much larger battle than it started as, since more people are drawn to the conflict.

Short answer, you shouldn't have a problem finding other small groups looking for the same type of PvP as you to skirmish with, you are also bound to come across larger battles being fought also.

I have never really found a use for making another Ironbreaker my Oath Friend (playing both offensively and defensively) unless thats the person that happens to be taking a focus fire at some point. Alternatively if you are playing out the offensive angle I've been talking about all day, if you don't have any other melee two Vengeance Ironbreakers could Oath Friend each other, that has some potential.

As far as I know, and I could be wrong here, you can stack Oath Friends on one target, but you cannot stack Guard.

Siyx

08-20-2008, 01:16 AM

Just as a side note to all this, my new blog is up at Game Riot and I will frequently be writing articles revolving around WAR and more specifically the Ironbreaker career. It can be found here:

Super6 - Everything Warhammer: An Ironbreaker's Perspective! (http://wowriot.gameriot.com/blogs/Super-6/)

sephentos

08-20-2008, 06:56 AM

Siyx

08-20-2008, 01:33 PM

Well as odd as this sounds i am now thinking that the most dps orintated class for the dwarf (my favourite race) is a vengeance specced iron breaker.He even has abilities to tank which i enjoy doing so im seriously considering making a swap from a runepriet which i originally thought could do dps and healing about 50/50 to the iron breaker and tank with the dps spec Is this viable and do you think my opinion on the matter of the ironbreaker doing the most dps is true? thanks for the reply in advance :)

Well talking specifically about the Dwarf careers, you could probably give an Engineer a good run for their money later on assuming gear / player ability is on the same plane. You have to keep in mind that the Ironbreaker is a tanking career when trying to compare DPS as well.

Copmuter

08-20-2008, 01:39 PM

Thanx for a great and informative guide Siyx, the jury is still out on what Im gona play, but after reading this the IB moved to top position.

Keep up the good work

Regards
/Cop

Siyx

08-20-2008, 01:57 PM

You're very welcome. I'm glad I was able to help so many people out with all of this.

Cheers.

fiddyep

08-20-2008, 06:46 PM

Is it possible to switch to from a greatweapon to a shield in combat to use your shield-only abilities, like in WoW?

Siyx

08-20-2008, 07:55 PM

Is it possible to switch to from a greatweapon to a shield in combat to use your shield-only abilities, like in WoW?

You can't weapon swap in combat, so nope. :cool:

dcor44

08-20-2008, 08:30 PM

He said the "wow" word! Lol :D

Siyx

08-20-2008, 09:36 PM

He said the "wow" word! Lol :D

Heh yeah, but in some ways we have to thank World of Warcraft for WAR. WoW is a very successful game, one which I enjoyed playing for a great length of time, it redefined and brought the MMO genre into the mainstream and introduced a lot of people to the experience.

I don't think WAR would be the same game if WoW had never been, as I guarantee you the folks over at Mythic learned from WoWs successes and most importantly its failures.

Either way I need to stop derailing my own thread, keep the IB discussions going guys!

VOGEL

08-20-2008, 10:14 PM

Damn nice work. Thanx alot, I have been waiting eagerly to read your post and the wait was well worth it.

I am thinking something along the lines of going high in Brotherhood and a ways up in vengeance. I will have to see how things play out once I start playing. I have never played a class anything like the IB so it will be a fun challenge, I am sure.

Thanx again for all your work it was helpful....

Elvisjr lvl 50 Fire Wizzy (DAOC)

Siyx

08-20-2008, 10:23 PM

I've found that Brotherhood is a superior "defensive" tree to Stone at the moment for the purposes of PvP and allows you to support your team a great deal more.

Glad you liked the report, and you're right, the Ironbreaker is a pretty original and unique experience. :cool:

VOGEL

08-20-2008, 11:12 PM

I am reading the game riot posts you put up. You should start a games manual company. I started DAOC long ago my brother initially started the account in Feb. of 2002 and I started playing soon after taking over his account.

DAOC was the first MMO I ever played and thus biased me. I attempted to play Wow and just couldn't get the feel of the game. I ran into lots of negativity when I asked people how to do stuff. I was like "well I'm not paying 15 dollars a month to be talked down to by a bunch of a**holes." So my Wow experience was more than negative to say the least.

I played Camelot until they kept nerphing all that I did. I made my plats in TOA, farming scrolls. I made and lvled a sight necro just for that, and was earning plats for my mains templete when they changed all the drop rates. That change messed my in-game finances up. So I made a matter cabby and got a bot account, lvled those both to 50 and started farming certain arti mobbs, then they got nerphed. (maybe I have the orders of the nerphs reversed) It got like every time I figured out how to do something it was changed so I couldn't do it anymore, or that it was a waste of effort.

Not trying to knock mythic, just said that to say this. I watched the pod cast where Mark Jacobs said that they made mistakes listening to the vocal minority and making changes where they should not have. Hearing him say that made me breathe a great sigh of relief. With my brief stint with Wow, a year and a half with Eve online, and a brief time on City Of Heroes, I have seen nothing that compares to Mythics originality.
I am waiting impatiently to play.

I will be in the preview this weekend. I am dying to play, so keep posting and I will keep reading.

Elvisjr lvl 50 Fire Wizzy

Siyx

08-21-2008, 04:41 AM

Good to hear you're enjoying it.

Siyx

08-21-2008, 02:40 PM

EDIT: Double post..

Siyx

08-22-2008, 05:05 AM

Update: For convenience I added my writeup on Mastery choices to my original report and rolled it into one super guide and submitted it to the archives and can be found in one massive article at:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/articles/showentry.php?e=82&catid=5

For future reference, both posts are staying on these forums as well so feel free to keep discussions going. I'll keep answering questions asked of me.'

Cheers.

Bhanqwa

08-26-2008, 07:02 PM

I have two questions about the "Punishing Blow" ability.

1: How long does the debuff stay on the target if he/she keeps moving?
2: How long does the debuff stay on the target if he/she doesn't move?

Siyx

08-28-2008, 01:32 AM

Shamless bump, I'm back from my trip! 8)

Siyx

08-30-2008, 06:53 PM

Apparently I needed to write 10 characters to bump my post!

novafluxx

08-31-2008, 06:21 PM

Very nice guide - Thank you!

Akah

08-31-2008, 07:45 PM

I needed to pick a new character after I discovered my little brother was going to start playing, and unfortunatly he was going to be a pointy eared-goody-two-shoes. There goes my hopes of being a squig hunter who's sole ambition in life was to butcher as many high elves as possible.:rolleyes: Was having serious trouble as I didn't want to play an Elf, didn't want to play healing or simple high DPS.

You Sir have just made me decide to play an Iron Breaker - (deep breath) thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouth ankyouthankyou:D

Guess I'll have to be a Dwarf whose sole ambition in life is to kill dark elves. What does it matter? Good or bad, they're all pointy eared pansies. (Need a dwarf name now ... bugger, it never gets easier)

Paragonn

09-01-2008, 12:37 AM

Guess I'll have to be a Dwarf whose sole ambition in life is to kill dark elves.

No offence, but if your sole ambition is to kill hight elves, then role a dps class.

If your sole ambition is to kill dark elves while buffing the melee dps and protecting them and your squishies, then sure, roll an Ironbreaker :D

what im trying to say is even though ironbreakers have good dps as vengeance spec, as an ironbreaker, you are still a protector, so you can't just forget about that and go hit stuff, you have to hit stuff AND protect.

Akah

09-01-2008, 04:48 AM

Yeah, I understand there's more to it than just hitting stuff - that's actualy why I didn't want to play MDPS, I wanted something more to do. I'm still gonna get a guilty pleausre every time I squit an elf though.

Paragonn

09-01-2008, 04:54 AM

I'm still gonna get a guilty pleausre every time I squit an elf though.

true dat ;)

Logic Crash

09-01-2008, 07:01 AM

Awesome guide. Very helpful and in-depth. Thank you for taking the time and posting this for all to see.

Hellbound

09-02-2008, 06:31 AM

Thanks so much for this! This post really helped me out A LOT! :D

Siyx

09-13-2008, 11:48 AM

Ouch page 5!

Mosho

09-13-2008, 03:31 PM

What would be the best renown build for survivability?

doskearn

09-13-2008, 04:28 PM

STLMikey

09-13-2008, 07:45 PM

You are awesome.

Siyx

09-14-2008, 01:29 PM

doskearn

09-14-2008, 04:16 PM

I read it in a different post in this forum

Apologies

pyyrhus2021

09-15-2008, 01:45 PM

Pretty basic question:
I've heard if a character is knocked down, he'll gain immunity for 20 seconds. Does this immunity apply to just the knock down mechanic or the knock down AND back mechanic?

Can i knock back an opponent immediately after he gets up from being knocked down?

As far as I've read the Immunity is something like 3X the abilities initial KD time. So for a 3 second knockdown the order would be something like:

KD for 3 seconds. 3(KD time) X 3(multiplier)= 9 seconds before the same KD will work on the same target again.

Keep in mind that this is 9 second AFTER THE KNOCK DOWN ENDS. Meaning that from the time you use the ability once till you can use it again is actually 12 seconds.

Again, this is as I understand how the KD Diminishing return works in RVR. If anyone has evidence otherwise please let me know ;)