Sword master answers

[Miotoss]

First I would Like to thank my guildies at vendetta for helping me With getting everything prepared for you guys today.


It seems now would be a good time to start posting, then. :) I guess what I'd like to know is how the Swordmaster compares to the Ironbreaker; in particular, I'm wondering if being the supposed "anti-magic" tank means that the Swordmaster is noticeably worse than the Ironbreaker against non-magic enemies.

Also, from what I've seen of the abilities of Swordmasters, they seem to have pretty comprehensive defenses. If this is true, does it give the class any advantage in rvr relative to the other tanks? Thanks.

1. The swordmaster Has The ability to fight well against all enemy's. They have a spec line
called hoeth that is specifically made to fight magic users that is an aoe line with silence , and
dots. The swordmaster is different in regards to the IB because the IB can buff team mates
where as the swordmaster cant, but both are deadly in combat.
What makes the Swordmaster deadly is the fact the he does a lot of spirit damage instead of melee damage. So people have to get spirit resists to mitigate damage.
As for defensive abilities the SM get a few abilities that buff his armor, Guard a team mate, Damage ward, abilities that reduce damage to all allies behind him, Reduced damage from oil on keeps, repairing keep doors, and a slew of CC including snares, knock backs, silence, stuns, and knockdowns. As for advantage it really depends on how you play and the group you run with or against. Everyone has a counter balance in the game. It really depends on skill on what to do and when to do it.

Does STR or INT affect the general damage output of Hoeth / magical-based sword attacks?

What does the general stat playing field look like between classes at max level, with baseline gear -- something like RvR greens or blues, or whatever is relatively easily acquired. Like HPs / resist% / armor values (number + %), damage levels per Swordmaster attack, and damage levels from high DPS classes.

Do people ignore you in general in RvR? Do they just try to bypass you? Are you successful in stopping them from bypassing you in general? Or with specific abilities?

2. From the tests me and another guild mate have ran int does not increase damage on spirit attacks str does.
For the second part of this question ill use a breast plate as an example. At level 31 you might see a BP with 436 armor as a green, and add 40 pts for blue and another 30 for purple so a purple would have 70 more points of armor class then green.
For stats a green might have 47 str. A blue might have 2 stats at 35 str and 35 toughness. A purple would have 35 str, 30 toughness, and 33 wounds. The resists would scale on a lesser scale of probably 10 for each class of BP.
Baseline good stats for a sword master at level 40 would be about
7200 hp = 720 wounds
Strength - 300 to 400
Toughness - 500 to 690 - depends on gear and training
Weapon skill - 200 - 300
Armor class - 2500 - 3300 - gear dependant 3300 ac is about 83% mit
We do good dps but not as much as ranged or melee dps. I would say we do about 20% less but because of survivability we put up the good numbers in scenarios.

How viable is the path of Hoeth? Also, do you use a shield or greatsword with said path?

3.Hoeth Is a viable spec line as its an aoe line with dots that proc off of crits and procs of blade enchantments, not to mention the silence and the armor buff and damage ward are in the mastery line as well.
Now for the 2 hander vs. sword and board debate. Its what you really want to do. You do better burst with the two hander where as the shield gives you better survivability, both are viable.

Does the Balance system get old (with you using the same old combos over and over) or do the options offer great diversity for you to switch combos given the situation?

4. To put it simply no the chain attacks do not get old. It offers a great deal of diversity and there is always situations where you can switch things up depending upon how you play. For example if your going for burst dps and u need to knock someone down, the knock down is third in the tier so you would use that instead of a dps ability. It goes like that for several tiers.
As for the iron breaker over sword master really they work best in conjunction. The iron breaker has an ability called oath friend which depending upon what ability they use the buddy gets a buff. Also the iron breaker will gain grudge off of the SM taking damage. The swordmaster is a lot better at burst damage and killing casters as well as surviving better with a two hander. It all balances out neither is better overall.
SM= more offense and disruption with debuffs
IB= more defensive and utility

How does Swordmasters look at higher levels from a scale of 1 - 10? (Yes I am very vain;)) If higher levels are in beta that is.

How do they perform in RvR?
Can you name your sword?
How do the sword enchants work?
Can you give any details on "Wall of Darting Steel"? That skill makes me drool.
Is it just me or does time move more slowly now that NDA is on the horizon? :skull:

5. Personal preference on look I love the way they look I would give it a 9
6.Great if you know what your doing. (great frontline warriors).
7. You can not name your sword.
8. You have 3 They are a buff you put on your sword
Nature blade - Steals stats
Phantom blade - Decreases morale
Heaven blade - Damage proc
9. Wall of darting steel is getting reworked currently

[Miotoss]

How fun are they?

How needed and utilized in a group are they (PvE and RvR), and could you give a brief overview of their prime use, i.e. absorbing damage, reducing opponents damage output, buff/debuffs, magic defense, etc.

Does the 1-2-3 combo style mechanic get boring or overly simple?

What's their DPS like, could you compare it to a few other classes?

10. I love it man. I think mythic finally got tanks right. (10 on the fun scale!)
11. In PVE we are very much needed to tank.
In RVR we are the front line warriors who’s job is to disrupt dps and healing, we are just as capable to pull back and protect our own.
12.No because certain abilities need to be interchanged I have 3 different chains set up at all times.
13. We do a ton of dps if specced right. We can pull of numbers of melee dps because we survive much better, but we don’t have the burst damage they do which is needed when focus firing. We are still capable of tearing limbs and chopping off heads.

Is the 30% damage increase applied to taunt in RvR enough of an increase to make opponents take the time to focus on you (i.e. is the increase enough to do notable damage to the target)?

Also, like others have stated, I am very intrigued by the Path of Hoeth. Please delve into the specialties of this tree.

Thanks for doing this, by the way, I'm sure I will have plenty more questions after reading the glut of info released tomorrow.

15. The 30% damage increase you get from taunt is from what I have seen not a deciding factor in who attacks you. What it does do is help burn the target down faster for focus firing and disrupting healers and dps when combined with the sword masters burst dps it helps us kill people faster and will eventually make people choose between attacking you or taking a lot more dmg. it’s a learning process for people right now.
16. As for hoeth Its is an AOE mastery line that can be mixed with dots. You can pump out a lot of damage in the form of dots coming off your aoe’s but it isn’t burts damage. You get you armor buff, Damage ward, and silence out of this spec line as well as tactics that help improve your blade enchantments. It really is the anti caster line with the dots and aoe causing setbacks and such.

I'm playing one right now thanks to the CE beta, but it'd be nice to have this answered by someone who has played it at higher levels.

Is the Path of Vaul viable for endgame RvR?

14. Vaul spec gives you great defensive capabilities. You will be able to survive while taking a beating better then any other spec, but you will take a huge cut in dps and be required to use a shield. Personally its not the way I play, but it has its place in protection and survivability. Not to mention that vaul spec will be the raiding spec for this game for a main tank.

Going off this question, is damage output higher with Path of Hoeth attacks when using a two-hander vs a one-hander?

Demerit
17. The two handed weapon defiantly does more damage for the sword master although it really does not matter in hoeth as much as it does in khaine. You need to 2 hand in khaine where as hoeth you can go either way w/o a significant decrease.

Are they resilient enough to tank the hardest hitting mobs? Are Ironbreakers noticably more tankier and thus more desired for PQs etc?

18. Sword masters make great tanks. They are actually better then Iron breakers when oath friend is applied and the sword master gets the buffs from the iron breaker. I personally have tanked everything with my Sword master with few problems as long as you know what your doing. I usually go ( Taunt > hate generating attack > increase parry attack > 20% damage
de buff) wash and repeat and you can mix in knockdowns and other de buffs as needed.
We are very desired for RVR, PQ’s, and dungeons.

[Miotoss]

Will SM be a viable Main tank in any spec or will we be subjugated to off tanking based on spec? Also is there anything in place to allow us to name our sword?(for our RP SM's)

On a side for a general HE question. What are the hair colors we can choose from?

Thank you very much for this!

19. The sword master is a viable tank for 99% mobs in any spec. You will have to switch to a sword and board however for hero’s and lords. Now saying that raid bosses will require the defensive spec which you can respec to. The respec cost has not yet been set so I don’t know how much it will cost.
20. Hair colors are blonde, bleach blonde, dirty blonde, brown, light brown, dark brown, and white.
21. Currently I have not heard anything about us being able to name our swords, but I do call my sword sally when talking to guild mates j/k.

Lets see, what can i ask other then my normal OMG dragons?!?! comment....

whats the look of the makeup of the three skill trees? we know one is dps based, one tank based and another magic, but how much do those trees enfold? and in that reguard is it possible to keep your greatsword and spec down into defence and be effective? (as in 2hand tank without a shield)

Nataku
22.Hoeth - This mastery tree is very aoe based. It includes dots, enhancements to spirit attacks, Armor buff, damage ward, and a silence its made to be an annoyance to casters.
Vaul - Sword and board spec It includes a knock back , damage ward that procs, Block increases, and increased hate and stunning.
Khaine - 2 hander pure burst dps. Includes attacks that cant be defended, A attack that attacks 5 times in 3 secs, aoe knock back, and aoe hate gen attack
These are just some on the abilities you will see out of these trees. Really you can pick and choose certain abilities from other trees like Ill go khaine, but I make sure to get the armor buff out of hoeth. just be sure you spend your points wisely and get what you need to play how you want.
23. Vaul would be pointless without using a shield because most the abilities require a shield.

sweet

1) How quick can you perform a full 3 skill combo?

2) Do you feel it's possible to perform full combos in rvr or do you usually get interrupted?

3) You capable of tanking with the greatsword? PVE and RVR answer would be good.

4) What skills can you use without having to combo?

5) How many options do you get for a combo? is it like three variations or we looking at something closer to five variations or more?

6) What are the specific swordmaster morale abilities? as in morale skills that only swordmaster gets

7) What kind of tactics you get for only swordmasters?

8 )How different does your weapons look, are there many different looks, how about runes. Seen any greatswords/one handed with runic inscriptions?

9) What kinds of weapon styles can we use. AKA Two hand weapon, one hand and shield, dual wield?

10) What careers do you feel are the most difficult to fight, why? And also in reverse the easiest.

Thanks for offering answers ; D

1) How quick can you perform a full 3 skill combo? - 3 to 5 seconds
2) Do you feel it's possible to perform full combos in rvr - yes no interuptions
3) You capable of tanking with the greatsword?- Yes in pve and rvr
5) How many options do you get for a combo? is it like three variations or we looking at something closer to five variations or more? - IN short a lot
6) What are the specific swordmaster morale abilities and tactics - I will post that on the ability thread.
7. The sword master’s weapon is very different looking and comes in many forms and yes there are runic inscriptions.
8. One hand and two handed swords no duel weilding as of now for the sword master.
9. In my opinion Healers are some of the tougher classes for us to kill because how they heal and the ability’s they get.

Anyother questions you guys need answered im willing to answer :)

[Quixote]

Are tanks overplayed?

Does the efficacy of tanks make MDPS less desirable or effective?

What's the difference in mitigation between a defensively focused MDPS and an offensive Tank?

[Miotoss]

Are tanks overplayed?

Does the efficacy of tanks make MDPS less desirable or effective?

What's the difference in mitigation between a defensively focused MDPS and an offensive Tank?

In short no atleast on order. Tanks dps is not as good as mdps, but we have amuch better mitigation rate.

[Deshiva]

oh best day ever today :D

Thanks for the answers, would like Delolith's answers to the same questions just to get another opinion.

Also you where saying that you needed a shield for some of the harder pve encounters, is the difference for not being specced for it big or do you think/know you could manage if you just slap on a shield and one hander?

[Miotoss]

oh best day ever today :D

Thanks for the answers, would like Delolith's answers to the same questions just to get another opinion.

Also you where saying that you needed a shield for some of the harder pve encounters, is the difference for not being specced for it big or do you think/know you could manage if you just slap on a shield and one hander?

I have managed with just slapping on a sword and board, but I do know some encounters will need vaul spec.

[Deshiva]

ok good to know, I got plenty of ironbreakers in my guild so I'm not likely to do main tanking duties. But atleast I can pull it off if the time comes

[Nataku]

Good awnsers, got another question for ya though.... what mechanics do we need to break through for damage? block, parry, dodge, miss, and resists?

[lasmrah]

Good awnsers, got another question for ya though.... what mechanics do we need to break through for damage? block, parry, dodge, miss, and resists?

It depends on the attack. All of our attacks can be blocked and can miss. Physical attacks can be parried, spirit damage attacks can be disrupted (like dodging for spells). Physical attacks are reduced by armor, spirit attacks are reduced by spiritual resistance. All attacks are reduced by toughness.

We have a rank 1 morale that reduces armor and a standard perfect balance ability, Wrath of Hoeth, that reduces spirit resistance. Path of Khaine has a purchasable attack that cannot be blocked or parried.

[Arpeggi]

God this is so awesome for us nonbeta people.

What sort of dye restrictions are there on the SM? Like, are their colors you simply can't put on a SM?

[Miotoss]

Good awnsers, got another question for ya though.... what mechanics do we need to break through for damage? block, parry, dodge, miss, and resists?

Block and parry - tanks and melee dps
Dodge and resists - applies to all enemies
Disrupts - apply to spells casted on you that missed

[Miotoss]

God this is so awesome for us nonbeta people.

What sort of dye restrictions are there on the SM? Like, are their colors you simply can't put on a SM?

Currently all order classes have the same dye colors that include
Blues, purples, some reds not all, green, yellow, silver, gold, and browns.

Now black, blood red and other colors you earn through raiding and RR ranks.
I saw that in a podcast somewhere.

[Nataku]

more of a general gameplay question, but say im hanging back to guard a bridge and a marader comes up, am i able to knock him back OFF the bridge, or does collision keep my from that?

[Miotoss]

more of a general gameplay question, but say im hanging back to guard a bridge and a marader comes up, am i able to knock him back OFF the bridge, or does collision keep my from that?

If you use your knockback ability you can knock him back off the bridge or over the side. You would also be able to set up a barricade of tanks to prohibit anyone from getting through if set up correctly in a bottleneck.

[Nataku]

If you use your knockback ability you can knock him back off the bridge or over the side. You would also be able to set up a barricade of tanks to prohibit anyone from getting through if set up correctly in a bottleneck.

every time i hear that i think of sunken tower wars where, i envision a caster in teh middle and a labrynth of tanks and as a enemy walka to get the caster they are pelted from the wall of tanks ^.^

knocking people off of bridge sounds fun and fightening

[Miotoss]

Nothing more annoying then being knocked off a cliff or brigde and having a 10-20 min runback because you fell along ways down.

[Khal]

Thanks for all the info so far.

Could you briefly describe the difference in hitpoints classes have around 40? Swordmasters, Ironbreakers then the melee dps, ranged dps, healers. I don't need exact numbers but generalize, big difference as you leave the tank tier? Thanks.

[Miotoss]

Thanks for all the info so far.

Could you briefly describe the difference in hitpoints classes have around 40? Swordmasters, Ironbreakers then the melee dps, ranged dps, healers. I don't need exact numbers but generalize, big difference as you leave the tank tier? Thanks.

As a tank at 40 I had 6800 - 7800 hp as a swordmaster. A melee dps at Might have 5000 hp max.

[Khal]

Thanks for the answer.

[Khal]

Stupid question, but you can't die the robe can you?

[Doodardle]

Can you block with a sword or do you have to have a shield to use the bloack reactive?
Are there any parry reactives or any other reactives?

[Ranien]

Stupid question, but you can't die the robe can you?
You can. Body armor dye is either the breastplate (primary) or the robe (secondary).

At least of all the armor sets I've put on my swordmaster.

What peeves me off about the sword master is that we have to wait until level 35 and spend a tactic slot to get a knockback similar to the one the chosen gets at level 16 baseline.

Not to mention every other tank gets a knockdown 9 points into one of their masteries whereas we have to spend 13 points in vaul.

Can you block with a sword or do you have to have a shield to use the bloack reactive?
Are there any parry reactives or any other reactives?
Blocking requires a shield as shields are the only thing that gives block value. Otherwise your sword will use parry which you can enhance through weapon skill or by using Eagle's Flight or Wall of Darting Steel.

[lasmrah]

Khal - yes, you can dye your robe. Your robe is the secondary color of your chestpiece.

Doodardle - You have to have a shield to block, sorry. The swordmaster only has a block reactive, and that is in the Vaul mastery path. No other reactives. There are some tactics we have that act as passive reactives - increasing balance whenever we parry, for instance, but you don't active them, they just trigger.

[Miotoss]

Stupid question, but you can't die the robe can you?
You can dye the robe :)

[Miotoss]

Can you block with a sword or do you have to have a shield to use the bloack reactive?
Are there any parry reactives or any other reactives?

Parry and dodge with the sword. You need a sheild to block.

[Miotoss]

The reason for that is because we do so much more damage then other tanks after lvl16. Now to give us the damage we do and all the cc that other tanks get at earlier levels is op. Besides Our job is to be frontline warriors and to protect when we are needed.

[Ranien]

I personally haven't noticed much difference between a sword master and the other tanks in damage above 16, but then again none of the other tanks interested me enough to cause me to play them extensively. Though I tried a chosen for about 4 days straight once and thought it did similar damage with a sword and shield with the added defense..

I still find it a bad idea that we have to spend a tactic slot at about twice the level for the same effect that the chosen gets baseline. Not to mention the ability that gets the knockback is very lackluster in the first place. And the Ironbreaker has no AoE knockback that I am aware of.

Either way my personal opinion is that our crowd control options are very limited compared to the other tanks which I don't think is a good thing at all.

[Miotoss]

Me and my guildies have done extensive testing on tank damage. 1 on 1 the swordmaster beats out all desto tanks if played right as is right now. Now really mythics vision of the tank is that they want us on the front lines fighting and disrupting the enemy's dps and healing. We have enough CC to do that we just dont have what other tanks have because we are able to do burst damage and for the most part when me and my guild role the most important CC I have is the snare and taunt which you get really early.

[the44thnight]

Q: the ingame tooltip says block works on all attacks, by all attacks does it include magic spells or just range/melee attacks? In other words have you tested if block work against spells.

[Dastion]

Q: the ingame tooltip says block works on all attacks, by all attacks does it include magic spells or just range/melee attacks? In other words have you tested if block work against spells.

You can block any attack. Be it spell, arrow, or mutated claw.

[Miotoss]

Q: the ingame tooltip says block works on all attacks, by all attacks does it include magic spells or just range/melee attacks? In other words have you tested if block work against spells.

It does indeed work against magic spells and all attacks :)

[Ashuran]

On WARDB's career builder for Swordmaster, I see that it reads "These Core Abilities are part of this mastery. Each point spent increases their power." on each mastery tree. What does this mean technically? Does this mean, for example, that Blurring Shock will do 3 times more damage with 15 points put into Khaine? How does this mechanic work with abilities that do not do damage but debuffs instead, like Nature's Blade that steals stats for example?

Also, what is your current favorite RvR spec at rank 40? 15 Khain and 10 Hoeth? Or something else?

[the44thnight]

If thats the case, which brings up my next question. Isnt block overpowered as an all-in-one defense compares to 3 other defense (parry-melee/dodge-range/disrupt-spell)? Also, black orc has a core skill that raise their block rate by 50%, which mirrors swordmaster's wall of darting steel (50% parry/dodge/distrupt), however our version not only cost 30 AP per sec compares to their 15 AP per sec, but stacking on top of normal block rate, they can achieve as high as 75% block rate while we cant stack due to having to equip a greatsword.

[Ashuran]

One more question: Can you switch between great sword and sword/shield back and forth during combat?

[Miotoss]

On WARDB's career builder for Swordmaster, I see that it reads "These Core Abilities are part of this mastery. Each point spent increases their power." on each mastery tree. What does this mean technically? Does this mean, for example, that Blurring Shock will do 3 times more damage with 15 points put into Khaine? How does this mechanic work with abilities that do not do damage but debuffs instead, like Nature's Blade that steals stats for example?

Also, what is your current favorite RvR spec at rank 40? 15 Khain and 10 Hoeth? Or something else?

Out of khaine currently I take ether dance, grophons lash, and whirling gyser. I take athyric armor out of hoeth.

The scaling of abilities scales depending upon the ability.

[Miotoss]

If thats the case, which brings up my next question. Isnt block overpowered as an all-in-one defense compares to 3 other defense (parry-melee/dodge-range/disrupt-spell)? Also, black orc has a core skill that raise their block rate by 50%, which mirrors swordmaster's wall of darting steel (50% parry/dodge/distrupt), however our version not only cost 30 AP per sec compares to their 15 AP per sec, but stacking on top of normal block rate, they can achieve as high as 75% block rate while we cant stack due to having to equip a greatsword.

Wall of darting steel is gonna get retooled.
As for block being op no because you never block every attack and loose alot of damage for using the sheild. Currently I can take any tank class using my 2 hander no matter what they use.
We also get a core ability called hold the line check into it :)

[Miotoss]

One more question: Can you switch between great sword and sword/shield back and forth during combat?

Not right now I would really like to see it though.

[the44thnight]

Wall of darting steel is gonna get retooled.
As for block being op no because you never block every attack and loose alot of damage for using the sheild. Currently I can take any tank class using my 2 hander no matter what they use.
We also get a core ability called hold the line check into it :)

But in RvR as front line warrior, you will likely be targeted by many rangers/casters. Hold the line only last 7 sec and has 60 sec cooldown, dont you think being a black orc with 75% block on all attacks pretty much all the time have way more advantage as front liner than swordmaster using greatsword? at half the cost of AP per sec? (hopefully new darting steel is good).

IMO below average dps (1h+board) is better than no dps cause you are dead on the ground. We are not gonna have 3 healers on us all the time.

I dont know how lvl 40 RvR is like, but in lvl 20 senarios RvR, in terms of surviving, using hold the line which granted 50% block rate is night and day difference compares to 2h sword.

Whats your opinion and experience in RvR? :D how do you fare against zerg range classes as front line warrior?

[Arpeggi]

In your opinion, what is the best craft to go with as a Swordmaster?

[Miotoss]

I havent crafted yet, but scavengiing will help with money :)

[Miotoss]

But in RvR as front line warrior, you will likely be targeted by many rangers/casters. Hold the line only last 7 sec and has 60 sec cooldown, dont you think being a black orc with 75% block on all attacks pretty much all the time have way more advantage as front liner than swordmaster using greatsword? at half the cost of AP per sec? (hopefully new darting steel is good).

IMO below average dps (1h+board) is better than no dps cause you are dead on the ground. We are not gonna have 3 healers on us all the time.

I dont know how lvl 40 RvR is like, but in lvl 20 senarios RvR, in terms of surviving, using hold the line which granted 50% block rate is night and day difference compares to 2h sword.

Whats your opinion and experience in RvR? :D how do you fare against zerg range classes as front line warrior?

Any tank survives with 2 healers its not really a concern that I have seen. I have had up to 10 people beating on me and If I have 2-3 healers I will survive :)

[Delolith]

Any tank survives with 2 healers its not really a concern that I have seen. I have had up to 10 people beating on me and If I have 2-3 healers I will survive :)

Actually I had like 20+ people focus firing me at a keep door with 2 good healers (AM and WP) and with Wall of Darting Steel managed to make my way back to the door after beating the living hell out of a low health Sorceress (Wings of Heaven and the Ether Dance on her head ftw;)). I know this because I was the only person outside of the keep walls:)

Delolith

[Marlaander]

Is it a viable option to go with a Kaine/Hoeth combo or is it kind of a waste to approach it with an offense A/offense B approach and completely ignore defense?

I guess I'm asking if it's a better call even as a SM wanting to be pretty offensive to pick Kaine or Hoeth and then use Vaul as your secondary path?

[Delolith]

Is it a viable option to go with a Kaine/Hoeth combo or is it kind of a waste to approach it with an offense A/offense B approach and completely ignore defense?

I guess I'm asking if it's a better call even as a SM wanting to be pretty offensive to pick Kaine or Hoeth and then use Vaul as your secondary path?

Yes absolutely can. You are still a tank...no matter what you do you will be extremely resilient especially if you have a good chunk of Toughness and Aethyric armour. Also Vaul speced SMs can still dish out damage....like Khaine speced SMs can still tank anything. You cannot spec out of your archetype;)

Delolith

[Marlaander]

Ok, because I was thinking I would like to play the Kaine path with Hoeth as secondary but I was worried I would leave myself without the abilities needed to be an effective tank at high levels.

[lasmrah]

Ok, because I was thinking I would like to play the Kaine path with Hoeth as secondary but I was worried I would leave myself without the abilities needed to be an effective tank at high levels.

Not a problem. Eagle's Flight and Dragon's Talon are the most important, and are both core. You will just do less damage and not get *quite* as much threat as someone specced Vaul, you will still be able to take damage just as well. I am full Hoeth spec at level 35, no points in Vaul, and can tank PQ bosses just fine w/o losing aggro or dying. Would be easier if I was Vaul, but definitely doable.

Edit: as to your earlier question about going Khaine/Hoeth being wasteful as both are offensive, that works fine that way, as dipping into Hoeth for Athyric Armor is awesome. The other way around, however, going main Hoeth / secondary Khaine is fairly wasteful, as the Hoeth abilities will still do more damage and the Khaine ones have comparatively little utility.

[Marlaander]

"Eagle's Flight and Dragon's Talon are the most important, and are both core. You will just do less damage and not get *quite* as much threat as someone specced Vaul, you will still be able to take damage just as well. I am full Hoeth spec at level 35, no points in Vaul, and can tank PQ bosses just fine w/o losing aggro or dying. Would be easier if I was Vaul, but definitely doable."


This confuses me a little. Are you saying someone not specced Vaul will do less damage than someone that is? Because that doesn't make sense to me.

[Miotoss]

Khaine over all if specced does more burst damage then hoeth. Where as if you go hoeth and dont spec khaine all the way you cant get the abilities you need out of khaine to make it worth while.

[Xori Ruscuv]

Are tanks overplayed?

Does the efficacy of tanks make MDPS less desirable or effective?

What's the difference in mitigation between a defensively focused MDPS and an offensive Tank?
Tanks are incredibly overplayed, but more so on Destruction. This is likely to change a little bit when squishy mele and rdps classes are buffed a bit, but let's face it: tanks have easy-to-produce DPS, great survivability, and an easy to perform role (tanking is incredibly easy in this game). So it's intuitive that such a class would be overplayed.

It's also beta - people will try out tons of stuff, especially the stuff that just ran over and whupped their butt ;)

[Freddeh]

I actually was finding Rdps classes overplayed more-so than tanks...though tanks were definitely second (at least SMs from what i saw...though i had a couple PQ's where i was literally the only tank), Third would be healers and lastly mdps...hardly saw any of the HE pet class...

It depends on the race i think too...I typically saw more Swordmasters and Archmages than anything else on the HE line, wheres playing my engineer i saw a ton more engineers and runepriests than IBs.

Empire i didn't really see a whole lot of so I can't comment, but i know there were a lot of bright wizards.

[Deshiva]

Been playing around with the fine Career builder tool we gotten on the database, and I will be going with something like this

http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=17#13:8872:5:40:0:0

ignore the "left over points" if it says I got any left over points it's a bug. I figured a rank 4 morale is tempting but not likely to be used very often so I sacrificed it for some more tanky additions. Also I went for deep incision instead of gryphon's precision, what's your thoughts on the build? I am going for mainly offensive with protection when necessary, hoeth is very tempting though. Might mess around with that

[Marlaander]

I saw 13 in Khaine and 5 in Vaul.....where did you put your other 7?

[Deshiva]

I saw 13 in Khaine and 5 in Vaul.....where did you put your other 7?


eh each skill and tactic costs another point to purchase so you actually see like 18 on khaine and 7 on vaul

"Edit"

The boxes with lines on the sides are unpurchased skills

[lasmrah]

"Eagle's Flight and Dragon's Talon are the most important, and are both core. You will just do less damage and not get *quite* as much threat as someone specced Vaul, you will still be able to take damage just as well. I am full Hoeth spec at level 35, no points in Vaul, and can tank PQ bosses just fine w/o losing aggro or dying. Would be easier if I was Vaul, but definitely doable."


This confuses me a little. Are you saying someone not specced Vaul will do less damage than someone that is? Because that doesn't make sense to me.

Sorry, I meant that, while tanking, you are going to use Vaul abilities whether or not you are specced Vaul for their utility (25% parry chance increase, they do 20% less damage respectively). So, while tanking, someone specced Vaul will do more damage than someone not specced Vaul. If you were trying to maximize DPS that isn't true, just while tanking.

[Aeri]

Been playing around with the fine Career builder tool we gotten on the database, and I will be going with something like this

http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=17#13:8872:5:40:0:0


I see you have purchased 3 different tactics throughout the mastery lines. While this is fine, there are some pretty awesome tactics that are core abilities, so I would search through those before maybe spending points in a mastery tactic. A good example is Centuries of Training, which will probably net you more damage than Deep Incision.

Also, while spec'ing Vaul will help with tanking a bit, you'd probably be better off using Hoeth. Aethyric Armor will provide a fairly significant defense increase. The increased damage from the Hoeth AoE abilities would also probably better suit your build, and would still allow you to tank quite well.

The only time a tank really "needs" to use a sword/board is for Hero or Lord mobs, or if you're getting swarmed by multiple Champions at once. Otherwise, a great weapon will be sufficient, especially if you have more than 1 healer.

@Miotoss - I'd still like to duel you on Warpstone to test your comment about "SM beating out all destro tanks". From my own testing, the Black Orc, at least, can win a fight with a greatsword-wielding SM a majority of the time.

[lasmrah]

Been playing around with the fine Career builder tool we gotten on the database, and I will be going with something like this

http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=17#13:8872:5:40:0:0

ignore the "left over points" if it says I got any left over points it's a bug. I figured a rank 4 morale is tempting but not likely to be used very often so I sacrificed it for some more tanky additions. Also I went for deep incision instead of gryphon's precision, what's your thoughts on the build? I am going for mainly offensive with protection when necessary, hoeth is very tempting though. Might mess around with that

That looks pretty good. Now I'm not sure exactly, but you might want to reconsider taking deep incision. You can only have four career tactics slotted at once and I personally find there to be more than 4 tactics I'd prefer over it that you just get from leveling. The following I think I would prefer over it, not that they are for sure better:

Focused Offense: Khaine is all about burst damage, so an extra 25% is huge. I personally almost always have this on in RvR, unless tanking a keep lord, and I find the taking 20% more damage to be totally tolerable.

Potent Enchantments: This causes any of your blade enchantments to do a large amount of damage over 9 seconds every time they go off, more than the increase you get to Quick Incision, and can go off on all attacks. Doesn't stack, but neither does QI.

Balanced Accuracy: Very few things in this game increase crit chance, and you took it anyway, so this gets on here.

Forceful Shock: Makes Blurring Shock into a knockback that can be used every 3 attacks. Since Blurring Shock is Khaine and so already is improved for you, this is great!

Anyway, maybe you like the Deep Incision tactic better, but I wouldn't use it, though maybe Gryphon's Precision is worthwhile, I'm not sure.

I also agree with Aeri that I'd put secondary points into Aethyric Armor. Its tooltip is bugged, it increases your armor by a large amount (my mitigation went from 62% to 79%) and your disrupt chance by 5%, amazing help when tanking.

[Blood De]

Here's my question...

What approximately does 92 spirit damage come out to with strength bonuses and mastery figured in?

I realize it's resistance dependent but just usually whats it hit for.

[Aeri]

Here's my question...

What approximately does 92 spirit damage come out to with strength bonuses and mastery figured in?

I realize it's resistance dependent but just usually whats it hit for.


It really depends on a lot of factors. Weapon DPS affect ability damage, as do your strength and weapon skill. The opponents' toughness also reduces damage before it is reported in the combat log, so that could skew the damage between two different enemies greatly.

On average, a magical damage attack will deal less damage total, but have less damage mitigated than a physical attack.

The best choice is to just compare the damage listed on the tooltip, if you're trying to decide between two attacks.

Edit - Mistake on the weapon speed. Thought it was stated once upon a time it was supposed to affect ability damage, but it appears it doesn't.

[lasmrah]

Here's my question...

What approximately does 92 spirit damage come out to with strength bonuses and mastery figured in?

I realize it's resistance dependent but just usually whats it hit for.

I'm not at home so I cannot check, but I believe a full 15 points in the appropriate mastery will increase the base number of the abilities by about 50%. So if the tooltip says 'deals 92 spirit damage' with 0 mastery points, it'll read around 'deals 138 spirit damage' with 15 mastery points. Mastery only increases the base ability damage, all skills get equal benefit from strength and the equipped weapon. The number I see tossed around is after you factor in strength and the weapon dps, the mastery increases the overall damage by about 30%.

As far as how much damage it ends up doing overall, totally depends on your stats. For more detailed explanation see Disquette's excellent melee damage guide: http://disquette.wordpress.com/warhammer-online-melee-combat-mechanics/

Edit: I just wanted to mention that the poster above me is slightly incorrect, weapon speed has *no* role in ability damage, only weapon DPS affects it, as explained in the link above. Weapon speed does however change the damage dealt by individual auto-attacks.

[TheCave]

Here's something I haven't seen discussed yet:

Can your weapon enchants proc from abilties or just auto attack?

[Aeri]

I'm not at home so I cannot check, but I believe a full 15 points in the appropriate mastery will increase the base number of the abilities by about 50%. So if the tooltip says 'deals 92 spirit damage' with 0 mastery points, it'll read around 'deals 138 spirit damage' with 15 mastery points.

Each point in a mastery tree increases the damage by slightly over 4%. You *should* be able to get to a 100% increase from base damage, with the max effective mastery rank (acquired via equipment bonuses and such)


Here's something I haven't seen discussed yet:

Can your weapon enchants proc from abilties or just auto attack?

They can proc from both.

[lasmrah]

Here's something I haven't seen discussed yet:

Can your weapon enchants proc from abilties or just auto attack?

Both. Amusingly enough, it can also proc off of Throw, though that is a bug and is supposed to get fixed.

[TheCave]

Next, what are your typical tactics set up like for RvR? There seem to be more than 4 that look useful.

I'm (like most people it would seem) mostly interested in the Hoeth tree so I'd think Enscorcelled Agony and Wind's Force would be a must, beyond that though there's so many options. Volatile + Potent Enchantments? Discerning Offense? Poised Attacks? Centuries of Training? Tap the Khaine tree for Balanced Accuracy? Or would you be better off using some of the more tank-like tactics like Rugged or Bend the Winds?

I'm hoping that once the game goes live and I get to a point where I'll have to make a true decision it will be a somewhat easy one, but I'm trying to think about it now and don't really know what to think.

Thank you, by the way, for answering all of our questions so quickly and with such thoroughness.

[Aeri]

CoT is probably one of the best tactics to use for RvR, simply because it can stack up to 4 times, leading to some fairly massive damage. Other than that, a lot depends on what your build is like.

For Hoeth, Ensorcelled Agony + Ensorcelled Blow spam can kill almost anything 1v1, unless they know what they're doing. It's less useful against large groups, though, since it drains your AP so fast, and a single healer can basically nullify the damage.

CoT + Volatile Enchantments + Potent Enchantments + Heaven's Blade can dish out some big damage when using the AoE moves in Hoeth. Each attack will usually trigger at least a couple DoTs on people, and they can start adding up.

A lot has to deal with exactly whta you're facing, and if you have time to prepare. Using certain tactic sets can be good against a few careers, but horrible against others. That's why it's often a good idea to set up a few sets in the quick-select.

[Blood De]

I'm not at home so I cannot check, but I believe a full 15 points in the appropriate mastery will increase the base number of the abilities by about 50%. So if the tooltip says 'deals 92 spirit damage' with 0 mastery points, it'll read around 'deals 138 spirit damage' with 15 mastery points. Mastery only increases the base ability damage, all skills get equal benefit from strength and the equipped weapon. The number I see tossed around is after you factor in strength and the weapon dps, the mastery increases the overall damage by about 30%.

As far as how much damage it ends up doing overall, totally depends on your stats. For more detailed explanation see Disquette's excellent melee damage guide: http://disquette.wordpress.com/warhammer-online-melee-combat-mechanics/

Edit: I just wanted to mention that the poster above me is slightly incorrect, weapon speed has *no* role in ability damage, only weapon DPS affects it, as explained in the link above. Weapon speed does however change the damage dealt by individual auto-attacks.

Thanks. Ya I think what I was looking for most was the effect of Strength on damage.

Just didnt quite ask right. :D

[lasmrah]

Next, what are your typical tactics set up like for RvR? There seem to be more than 4 that look useful.

I'm (like most people it would seem) mostly interested in the Hoeth tree so I'd think Enscorcelled Agony and Wind's Force would be a must, beyond that though there's so many options. Volatile + Potent Enchantments? Discerning Offense? Poised Attacks? Centuries of Training? Tap the Khaine tree for Balanced Accuracy? Or would you be better off using some of the more tank-like tactics like Rugged or Bend the Winds?

I'm hoping that once the game goes live and I get to a point where I'll have to make a true decision it will be a somewhat easy one, but I'm trying to think about it now and don't really know what to think.

Thank you, by the way, for answering all of our questions so quickly and with such thoroughness.

One problem, there is currently a maybe-bug-maybe-side-effect that is problematic with combing Volatile and Potent Enchantments. Whenever the enchantment procs again, it resets the timer on Potent Enchantments...but the DoT doesn't deal initial damage, it deals its first damage 2 seconds in. So, with a GCD of 1.5 seconds, if you repeatedly proc your enchantment on the same enemy twice in a row (or with an autoattack) it'll keep resetting the duration and never deal damage. Combining the two isn't a great idea.

Centuries of Training is great because, as Aeri said, it can stack up to 4 times which is pretty cool. However, it can take a while to stack up that much so it's sorta a preference thing.

I always run with Focused Offense myself. the +25% damage I find crucial for getting enough burst damage to kill people, while my mitigation is high enough (and my health) that the +20% damage taken isn't too bad.

Forceful Shock is great as we get a knockback we can spam every 3rd move! Crazy cool!

Ensorcelled Agony is, also as Aeri said, crazy awesome. Its DoT stacks so you can spam it over and over until you run out of AP (which happens fast).

As you said you were thinking Hoeth, let me also say Bolstering Enchantments is really awesome (aside from a current bug where it causes massive lag, but that will get fixed in the next build) for a couple of reasons: It debuffs spiritual resists as much as Wrath of Hoeth, so after a few attacks your opponent will have 0 spiritual resist (instead of 20-40%) so ensorcelled agony will hit that much harder, and it also buffs both spiritual and corporeal resists for you AND your group! yay group utility! Note this means that it buffs the resists we need against 2 out of 3 destro RDPS, as well as plenty of other classes.

Umm, I personally don't get or use Wind's Force as I find that most of the time everyone I'm trying to AoE is within the 10m range. I don't find enough situations where the extra range will be meaningful enough to lose a career slot for it.

I usually run with one of 3 sets (at level 35):
Standard: Focused Offense, Ensorcelled Agony, Potent Enchantments
Tanking: Menace, Isha's Protection, Dampening Talon
RvR: Focused Offense, Ensorcelled Agony, Forceful Shock

At 40 I plan to use the following build: http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=17#0:0:5:40:15:8352 and the following tactic sets:
Standard: Focused Offense, Ensorcelled Agony, Potent Enchantments, Centuries of Training
Tanking: Menace, Isha's Protection, Dampening Talon, Perfect Defenses
RvR: Focused Offense, Ensorcelled Agony, Potent Enchantments, Forceful Shock

I use Heaven's Blade most of the time, but Nature's Blade when tanking.

Discerning Offense may be very good, I'm not sure; as it stands I'm not sure my attacks get avoided often enough to warrant it. I'll be keeping an eye out for someone to do some number crunching and find otu if it is better. Hope this helped!

[the44thnight]

As far as focused offense tactic, while you gain 25% attack on target(s), but because you are melee and front liner, everyone will deal 20% more damage to you, this can quickly stack up while you are trying to get from point A to point B, which will probably kill you before you break in enemy ranks.

[Blood De]

This may not matter but does the cripple stack with the snare?

What is a cripple anyways? hehe

[lasmrah]

As far as focused offense tactic, while you gain 25% attack on target(s), but because you are melee and front liner, everyone will deal 20% more damage to you, this can quickly stack up while you are trying to get from point A to point B, which will probably kill you before you break in enemy ranks.

I totally understand that idea in theory, but I find great success with the tactic; I heartily recommend you give it a whirl!

I don't find that to be a problem at all due to the way people choose their targets. If I'm with a group of people, they almost always go after the other squishier classes before they attempt to attack me. If I'm alone, one RDPS can't do enough damage before I get to them to win, and then once I'm in melee my hard hits make up for it. One healer also is generally in trouble, as my extra damage means I can actually outdamage their heals significantly. If I'm alone and encounter multiple enemies then, well, I was doomed anyway.

Well, that's my experience with the tactic, anyway. Certainly a bad idea if you are tanking a keep lord or the like, but otherwise I don't find myself focus fired enough for the drawback to stop me from using it. Especially when I'm on defense guarding the healers, the extra damage means even if a few destro at once go after a healer, I can drop them before they can finish him off (with the help of guard, of course).

The only time I find damage stacks up from ranged opponents as you were describing is if I charge headlong and alone at an enemy zerg...but I don't think anyone should survive that.

Anyway I find the extra 25% damage increases my burst enough to greatly improve my RvR effectiveness, while even with -20% mitigation I have enough health and armor to last long enough to get heals or kill my opponent unless I'm seriously outnumbered. Even with the tactic and using a greatsword instead of a shield, I have sustained the focus fire of 3 tanks with the help of just one healer (though it would have been bad if they went after the healer).

[therealdecoy]

This may not matter but does the cripple stack with the snare?

What is a cripple anyways? hehe Cripple effects and snare effects are different things. Snare effects are self-explanatory. Cripple effects are a category of debuffs (like hexes) that do other things. Examples can be seen with Graceful Strike (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9002) and Dragon's Talon (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9006).

[radionstorm]

Are the sword masters spiritual damaging abilities effected by their physical crit or spell crit?

[Marcolin]

Maybe I'm out of the loop, but aren't tactics restricted based on type, so you can only have 1 career, 1 renown, and 1 tome tactic out at a time? It was one of my biggest complaints before closed beta ended..

[Delolith]

Are the sword masters spiritual damaging abilities effected by their physical crit or spell crit?

Swordmaster spiritual damage are not spells. They are melee hits. Meaning they do not get disrupted...they get parried/blocked. They are increased by Strength and not intelligence because they are sword hits after all. They check against spiritual resistance for mitigation. The portion reduced does not work with weaponskill armour penetration. They are melee hits so they are increased with melee hits critical.

Delolith

[Nentisys]

Thanks everyone, this thread has been a fountain of information!
For a non-beta dude like me.

[cowpuncher]

Really good review on the Swordmaster I am now planning on rolling one as my main since I enjoy the tanks in Warhammer. Kudos to you and your guild.

On a side note was your Vendetta guild on the shadowblade pvp server of Age of Conan?

[Blood De]

Okay I saw that SM have about 7000ish HP at 40. How does that compare with the squishies?

[Deshiva]

Thanks a ton to both Aeri and Lasmrah, this helped me alot to fine tune the build. I forgot thoose tactics from simply leveling up, so yeh definetly gonna change it around now.
Found out the IB's in my guild are going pretty much all def so I'll prolly be more useful in offtank position anyway.

[Ashuran]

If Nature's Blade proc consecutively twice in a roll, does the 2nd proc's stolen stats stack with the previous proc stolen stats? Or does the 2nd proc overrides the 1st one?

[Delolith]

If Nature's Blade proc consecutively twice in a roll, does the 2nd proc's stolen stats stack with the previous proc stolen stats? Or does the 2nd proc overrides the 1st one?

If it is the same stat it does not stuck...but it refreshes. If it is different stat then they both stuck.

Okay I saw that SM have about 7000ish HP at 40. How does that compare with the squishies?

Around 5-5.5k with wounds gear. If your gear has no wounds then they are at about 4.5k health.

Delolith

[Blood De]

Around 5-5.5k with wounds gear. If your gear has no wounds then they are at about 4.5k health.

Delolith

Thats a little healthier than I expected. hehe Thanks

[Delolith]

Thats a little healthier than I expected. hehe Thanks

Yea but we can probably do more damage than you expect as well;)

Delolith

[lasmrah]

Maybe I'm out of the loop, but aren't tactics restricted based on type, so you can only have 1 career, 1 renown, and 1 tome tactic out at a time? It was one of my biggest complaints before closed beta ended..

That is only true below level 20. You get 3 more career tactic slots at levels 20, 30, and 40.

[Rowin]

-Could someone go into detail about the Swordmasters Stuns snares and knockbacks, What they get talented and untalented. Are they enough to keep healers locked up or just how they effect combat. Also detail about Juggernaut would be really helpful.



-Rowin

[lasmrah]

-Could someone go into detail about the Swordmasters Stuns snares and knockbacks, What they get talented and untalented. Are they enough to keep healers locked up or just how they effect combat. Also detail about Juggernaut would be really helpful.
-Rowin

Juggernaut, first of all, is on a 1 min cooldown and breaks all roots/snares/stuns/disarms currently on you. Unfortunately it confers no immunity so is only helpful when a small number of players are attacking you. If 3 or more players are attacking you, they can generally re-apply whatever affect fast enough that it isn't worth the GCD and AP to use it. There is a tactic to reduce its cooldown to 20 seconds, but I don't find it worthwhile personally, others might disagree.

We have no stuns, except a talent high in the Khaine tree that makes Gryphon's Lash have a 25% chance to stun for 1 second, and that doesn't cause immunity. I have no experience with that tactic.

Our snare is in improved balance and is 40% for 10 seconds, very very useful. I apply more or less constantly in RvR to keep them from running. You can keep it up permanently if you use it every combo. Does good damage, too.

We get one knockback untalented, but it requires a tactic. A shorter distance knockback than some others, but it has no cooldown so we can spam it every three moves (goes on a perfect balance move, Blurring Shock). Still a far enough knockback that it is useful for things like punting enemies into the middle of your zerg, knocking them off walls/cliffs, away from a healer, etc. I often use that tactic in RvR.

We also get a disorient untalented, increases cast times by 1 second for 5 seconds, 10 second cooldown. Useful, partially because it deals a lot of damage for an improved balance ability.

In our mastery paths, at the top of Hoeth and Vaul are two more CCs. Vaul gets a 3s knockdown that can be used every 20 seconds, fairly useful. Hoeth gets a 5 second silence also with a 20 second cooldown, which I find very useful as I often go after RDPS or healers. I'm not as fond of the knockdown as its duration is pretty short, but that's just personal preference, I think it can be very effective.

We also get a 30ft range AoE root that breaks on damage 50% of the time. Can affect up to 4 enemies for 5 seconds. 1 min cooldown. This is pretty useful.

This adds up to swordmasters having some CC, enough to inhibit but not lock up another player. This is balanced by us being able to deal more damage than other tanks, so a combination of damaging a healer and making it hard enough to heal himself that he has to focus entirely on survival WILL keep him out of the fight, or kill him. Our CC is also enough that with it and Guard, we can keep a healer alive against multiple players; my best is keeping an archmage alive against a chosen, a black orc, and a marauder who all were ignoring me and attacking him. Eventually the two of us won that fight, though I think we would have lost if they had played better and/or attacked me at least enough to get taunt off.

[Ashuran]

Can Ether Dance be interrupted with knock downs, knock backs, or disorient?

Can someone "evade" Ether Dance by moving out of the Swordmaster's range while the Swordmaster is channeling Ether Dance, so that the last few hits of Ether Dance can't hit him?

[Elwyndas Ellorian]

Can Ether Dance be interrupted with knock downs, knock backs, or disorient?

Can someone "evade" Ether Dance by moving out of the Swordmaster's range while the Swordmaster is channeling Ether Dance, so that the last few hits of Ether Dance can't hit him?

Yes, Ether Dance can be interupted.

And yes, it can also be evaded. Every tank class has a style of this nature. If you see a Tank spinning his weapon in circles it makes perfect sense to try to get out of range. Some only hit in a frontal cone, some are AoE. However, you can pursue your target while the style is firing without interupting it. I have done it before.

[Izule]

With Ether Dance does your sword enchantments proc?

[lasmrah]

With Ether Dance does your sword enchantments proc?

Yes, but I can't remember whether it has just one chance to proc or once per blow (eg, 5 total chances). I would guess it can only proc once, just for sanity reasons, but I'm not sure.

[Ashuran]

For renown advancement, if you spend renown points to get a stat boost, does the later levels of the stat boost stack with the previous levels? For example, if I spent 1 renown points to get 3 str boost at level 1, and then spend another 3 renown points to get a 9 str boost at level 2, do I get just 9 str boost or a total of 3+9=12 str boost?

Do renown tactics need to be equipped to be use and take up tactic slots?

[lasmrah]

For renown advancement, if you spend renown points to get a stat boost, does the later levels of the stat boost stack with the previous levels? For example, if I spent 1 renown points to get 3 str boost at level 1, and then spend another 3 renown points to get a 9 str boost at level 2, do I get just 9 str boost or a total of 3+9=12 str boost?

Do renown tactics need to be equipped to be use and take up tactic slots?

All the levels stack with each other (You get 3+9=12 from 2 levels), I have a more detailed post about that in a thread in Basic Questions forum if you want to go look for it.

They need to be equipped, but you have a renown tactic slot seperate from your career tactic slots.

Just to put the info here as there is much confusion, you start with 1 career, 1 renown, and 1 tome tactic slots. You gain 3 additional career tactic slots at levels 20, 30, and 40, and maybe a second renown tactic slot at a high renown rank, though that isn't confirmed. Tome tactics give small bonuses to damage/mitigation when fighting specific kinds of PvE mobs.

[Sickletooth]

I've posted a topic about this, but didn't get many answers.

Do you guys think whirling geyser is worth anything?

How big is the knockback compared to other classes?

How quickly does morale build and how often do you think whirling geyser would be available to the average player? Once per three minutes? Longer? Shorter?

[lasmrah]

I've posted a topic about this, but didn't get many answers.

Do you guys think whirling geyser is worth anything?

How big is the knockback compared to other classes?

How quickly does morale build and how often do you think whirling geyser would be available to the average player? Once per three minutes? Longer? Shorter?

I think whirling geyser is pretty decent. If I was going to go 15 points into Khaine, I'd pick it up, but I wouldn't go out of my way for it. I would be more excited except just from leveling we get a tactic Forceful Shock that makes Blurring Shock into a knockback with no cooldown (though due to our balance system, only every 3 moves). If I wanted to knockback people, I'd do that instead, for the reasons below about morale build time.

I'm not sure how large the knockback is, sorry.

Morale builds fairly slowly. 30 secs of combat to tier 1, 1 min to tier 2. Haven't timed the higher tiers, but getting to tier 4 takes a lot of time, maybe 4-5 minutes? I almost never use my tier 4 morale ability because I'd rather use my earlier ones more frequently. Each tier does take more time than the previous. Not that I never user tier 4, just rarely.

[Ashuran]

How does the "Protection of Hoeth" ability scale? What stat does it scale with? Is it worth getting?

[lasmrah]

How does the "Protection of Hoeth" ability scale? What stat does it scale with? Is it worth getting?

I don't actually know whether or not it scales with any stat, but I can say that the number is low enough that it's totally not worth getting at this point. I believe they have said they are going to improve it before release, though.

[TheCave]

A few more quick Qs:

Does Whispering Wind's silence affect casted "magic" abilities or any ability from any class?

I have heard that when you apply a DOT each individual tick has a chance to crit. Is this true? And if so, are all SM DOTs effected similarly?

The next 2 are somewhat related to SM but also somewhat general.
How much damage does a crit do? 125% 150% 200% 10000%?

What do you find tends to be the most effective way to level? Quest? Grind? Aoe Hoeth grind? Scenarios? What?


EDIT: Also, Aethyric Armor (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9033) says it increases armor by 5? What does that mean? The disrupt increase by 5 makes sense, but does it mean it increases your armor by the number 5? That doesn't seem to be all that great to me, to the point that they probably should've just left it out of the ability. I can't imagine 5 extra armor points is going to make a huge difference when your various pieces have hundreds each.

[Sickletooth]

EDIT: Also, Aethyric Armor (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9033) says it increases armor by 5? What does that mean? The disrupt increase by 5 makes sense, but does it mean it increases your armor by the number 5? That doesn't seem to be all that great to me, to the point that they probably should've just left it out of the ability. I can't imagine 5 extra armor points is going to make a huge difference when your various pieces have hundreds each.

I've wondered that myself, but it's probably just a typo or bug within WAR or WARDB. If you take a gander at some talents and abilities of other classes it says it'll increase the range by 0 feet or something, and then there's one marauder(I think) ability that lists its damage as 3.7K or something.

[Aeri]

A few more quick Qs:

Does Whispering Wind's silence affect casted "magic" abilities or any ability from any class?

I have heard that when you apply a DOT each individual tick has a chance to crit. Is this true? And if so, are all SM DOTs effected similarly?

The next 2 are somewhat related to SM but also somewhat general.
How much damage does a crit do? 125% 150% 200% 10000%?

What do you find tends to be the most effective way to level? Quest? Grind? Aoe Hoeth grind? Scenarios? What?


EDIT: Also, Aethyric Armor (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9033) says it increases armor by 5? What does that mean? The disrupt increase by 5 makes sense, but does it mean it increases your armor by the number 5? That doesn't seem to be all that great to me, to the point that they probably should've just left it out of the ability. I can't imagine 5 extra armor points is going to make a huge difference when your various pieces have hundreds each.

Silence only affects casted abilities (even if they are instant-cast). There are other effects that deal with other abilities, such as Disarm.

Each tic on a DoT does have a separate chance to crit, and this applies to all DoTs throughout the game.

A crit normally does 150% damage. Some careers get abilities and/or tactics to increase crit damage, however.

Leveling is generally fastest by winning scenarios, along with quests that are of the RvR variety (i.e. kill 10 players). However, grinding through certain quests and PQs can yield better xp/time depending on how many people are in scenarios, and whether or not you're team is winning them - If you only get 2 scenarios an hour, and only win 50% of them, you probably won't get as much xp as you would grinding and doing some normal quests.

Aethyric Armor's tooltip currently has a typo. WARDB takes the ability text directly from the game, I believe, so any typos in game will be reflected there. The actual armor increase varies depending on the ability level, and scales at the normal ~+4% per mastery level. At ability rank 35, it gives an extra 577 armor. At ability rank 40, it should give about +700 armor.

[Gestalt]

A lot of great information, clearly explained. Thanks :)

I was wondering, while looking through the Swordmaster masteries, about the effectiveness of Core abilities that do not have a damage component.

Specifically, how would Phantom Blade's effectiveness be changed if I have no points into Vaul? Would Intimidating Blow take away the same morale, but do crap damage, if I don't go into Vaul?

[lasmrah]

A lot of great information, clearly explained. Thanks :)

I was wondering, while looking through the Swordmaster masteries, about the effectiveness of Core abilities that do not have a damage component.

Specifically, how would Phantom Blade's effectiveness be changed if I have no points into Vaul? Would Intimidating Blow take away the same morale, but do crap damage, if I don't go into Vaul?

Well, currently Phantom Blade doesn't improve with mastery points, though that might be a bug. And yes, Intimidating Blow would take away the same morale w/o any points. Generally if an ability does any damage, that is the only thing mastery points enhance about it.

IB wouldn't do crap damage if you don't go into Vaul, tough. A full 15 points only increases damage by about one third, after taking weapon and strength into account. So less damage, certainly, but I wouldn't call it crap.

[Blood De]

I notice that 2 tactics, Dampening Talon and Adept Movements, seem to already be active on the abilities they affect. Does Dampening Talon cause Dragon's Talon to reduce damage by another 20%? Does Adept Movements do anything? What's wrong with Wall of Darting Steel?

Thanks

[Delolith]

I notice that 2 tactics, Dampening Talon and Adept Movements, seem to already be active on the abilities they affect. Does Dampening Talon cause Dragon's Talon to reduce damage by another 20%? Does Adept Movements do anything? What's wrong with Wall of Darting Steel?

Thanks

Dampening Tallon increases the debuff of the Dragon's Tallon by 1 second more...which is not worth it imo. Adept Movements reduce to cost of WoDS from 40 APs per second to 30 APs per second.

Delolith

[faeral]

I notice that 2 tactics, Dampening Talon and Adept Movements, seem to already be active on the abilities they affect. Does Dampening Talon cause Dragon's Talon to reduce damage by another 20%? Does Adept Movements do anything? What's wrong with Wall of Darting Steel?

Thanks

Dampening Talon does increase Dragon's Talon to 40% Damage Reduction.

[Delolith]

Dampening Talon does increase Dragon's Talon to 40% Damage Reduction.

Have you tested this? If this is the case then it is interesting.

Delolith

[faeral]

Have you tested this? If this is the case then it is interesting.

Delolith

It has been tested through combat log parse, although the tooltip on the target's debuff is not reflecting the damage reduction.

[benrici]

So how are SM in regards to pvp, I played AOC was a guardian and it was terrible, i enjoy tanks but not doing dps was upsetting. Would you say that in pvp they are good damage dealers with the right spec? Could they beat out a Witch Hunter? Thanks!

[Aeri]

MDPS should, theoretically, always be able to outdamage a tank career. This is due to the way that MDPS are built, compared to tanks. As such, with two good players using the characters, a WH will out DPS a SM probably 90% of the time, depending on what they are fighting (for example, a SM might out DPS the WH fighting a tank, due to the SM using spiritual-based attacks, thus bypassing the effect of them wearing Heavy armor).

However, a Swordmaster can most definitely output some pretty significant damage, especially if they are spec'd well. Using a greatsword with the Path of Khaine, or utilizing things like Ensorcelled Blow + Ensorcelled Agony spam, you can do some decent damage in PvP.

If you build a SM as a pure tank, then your DPS might be lowered somewhat. In exchange, though, you'll be able to outlast most other careers on the field, and thus can output a lot of damage over a longer period of time.

[Ashuran]

How does morale scale with battles? Do you get morale faster by doing more damage? Or by hitting multiple targets?

[Aeri]

To my knowledge, the only ways to get morale faster are by using Guild standards and some renown tactics. Otherwise, it grows at a standard rate so long as you are in combat.

[Khal]

Aethyric Armor's tooltip currently has a typo. WARDB takes the ability text directly from the game, I believe, so any typos in game will be reflected there. The actual armor increase varies depending on the ability level, and scales at the normal ~+4% per mastery level. At ability rank 35, it gives an extra 577 armor. At ability rank 40, it should give about +700 armor.

Could someone elaborate on this skill a bit more? Does the buff have a timer or is it active as long as your blade enchant does(until you release it with wrath)? Great info so far, thanks to all who contributed.

[Aeri]

Could someone elaborate on this skill a bit more? Does the buff have a timer or is it active as long as your blade enchant does(until you release it with wrath)? Great info so far, thanks to all who contributed.


Aethyric Armor is a 30m buff. The blade enchantments are independent and stay on until you die, turn them off, or switch to a different one.

[Los]

This is quality information thanks to all those posting.

[Hado]

Base stats for a Swordmaster at Rank 40 are:

147 Str, 186 Tough, 606 Wounds, 167 Ini, 206 Weap. Skill, 89 Ballistic, 128 Int, and 108 Will.

Parry: 6.4% (Inherent value of 1.5%)
Dodge: 5.2%
Disrupt: 3.4%

Thought this might help with some of the raw statistical data questions.

[Khal]

Aethyric Armor is a 30m buff. The blade enchantments are independent and stay on until you die, turn them off, or switch to a different one.

Ya I have used the blade enchants but didn't get high enough to get the armor skill. Are you saying that when you use wrath of hoeth (tooltip says it takes your swords emchant and releases it in an ae) you don't have to re-enchant your blade after?Thanks for the info about the armor buff.

[faeral]

mythic does a good job of representing good atmosphere even through its tooltips, hence the reference to releasing the enchantment.

your actual weapon enchantments will never be removed by your own abilities. i am unsure as to whether they can be stripped. i'd think they can't be though, since they are not considered a blessing?

[Ashuran]

I read somewhere that Gust of Wind and Wrath of Hoeth actually do spirit damage instead of regular damage like the tooltip indicates. Is this true?

How do ability attacks scale with weapons? Do they scale with DPS or the damage of the weapons?

[Elwyndas Ellorian]

I read somewhere that Gust of Wind and Wrath of Hoeth actually do spirit damage instead of regular damage like the tooltip indicates. Is this true?

How do ability attacks scale with weapons? Do they scale with DPS or the damage of the weapons?

Yes, they are Spirit damage, and yes, they scale up.

Wrath of Hoeth actually has a rather nasty Spirit debuff, depending on how much you spec into Hoeth.

And the Tactic Dampening Talon no longer increases Dragon's Talon from a 20% damage debuff to a 40%, it is now a 10% add to the style, so it makes Dragon's Talon a 30% damage debuff to your opponent for four seconds.

[Dys]

Firstly I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to make these informative posts :)

Well, I participated in the Open Weekend recently and really enjoyed playing a SM. There are some questions I'd like to put to those who have been playing the career for a lot longer than I have:

1. I plan on going full Khaine and remainder Hoeth, focusing on an offensive SM, obviously most stats benefit a SM, but which would you consider the most important (from a renown training / gear stats point of view)? I'm guessing strength and weapon skill, please correct me if I'm wrong.

2. Is this Khaine / Hoeth mastery a viable choice for someone who plans to make an RvR focused offensive SM, or are there other options to consider?

3. I may consider becoming a dedicated tank in the future after I've had my fun at 40, and if so will go mainly Vaul with sword and board, so 2 questions:
a. Which mastery would most compliment Vaul for a sword and board dedicated tank? and
b. Similar to Q1, which stats would most benefit said Vaul tank (once again from a renown training / gear stat point of view)? I was guessing wounds and toughness, but once again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Dys

[Kreuk]

Stat allocations have been discussed thorougly here:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50524

[lasmrah]

1. I plan on going full Khaine and remainder Hoeth, focusing on an offensive SM, obviously most stats benefit a SM, but which would you consider the most important (from a renown training / gear stats point of view)? I'm guessing strength and weapon skill, please correct me if I'm wrong.

2. Is this Khaine / Hoeth mastery a viable choice for someone who plans to make an RvR focused offensive SM, or are there other options to consider?

3. I may consider becoming a dedicated tank in the future after I've had my fun at 40, and if so will go mainly Vaul with sword and board, so 2 questions:
a. Which mastery would most compliment Vaul for a sword and board dedicated tank? and
b. Similar to Q1, which stats would most benefit said Vaul tank (once again from a renown training / gear stat point of view)? I was guessing wounds and toughness, but once again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

1) The 2 big ones for sure are strength and toughness. Whether or not you want weapon skill depends on whether or not you end up using Ensorcelled Blow with Ensorcelled Agony, which can work even without that many points in Hoeth. If you do, 2 out of 3 attacks are spirit damage and ignore armor, so don't focus on weapon skill. If you are instead going to start with Gryphon's Lash, get weapon skill. Strength is definitely the biggest for an offensive tank though. I always wear whatever gear I can find that has the most strength on it, unless I'm losing more than 2 points of other stats for each point of strength.

2)Yes, that is viable. The other viable offensive spec would be full Hoeth, secondary wherever you want. The combo I mentioned earlier of EB with the EA tactic, along with Wrath of Hoeth and Bolstering Enchantments results in pretty sick damage as the dot from EA can stack. Hoeth will also do better AoE damage. The Khaine spec will have better burst damage from Ether Strike, though.

3)a)Probably Hoeth, so you can pick up Aethyric Armor. Its tooltip is bugged, it increases armor mitigation percentage by around 15%, not 5.
b)Yeah, wounds and toughness. Mostly toughness with a main tank, as you just want a HP pool big enough to absorb any burst, then toughness to take the strain off your healers.

[Wrongel]

Hi there.

I'm going to roll an SM, and plan on being a caster/healer-killer offensive tank/mdps hybrid.

Now I'm pretty much stuck on 1 point. I will spec Khaine/Hoeth, but don't know
which one should be the main spec. I'm not taking rank 4 morales, I'm more inclined to have reliable abilities, not ones I have to wait for to build up.

Now my question is: If i go 13 Khaine, I get the 3 sec 5x attack ability, which is just sweet burst dmg, deals spirit damage to boot, and really improves dps.

BUT! If I'm going to chase the "ones in the dress" (remember UBRS? "KIll the one in the dress!" :) ) I might need the 13 Hoeth skill, which is only 2 damaging strikes, much less burst damage, but also silences the target for 5 sec, in which time I can get to perfect balance again.

I browsed through the abilities, but didn't see any core/baseline "standalone" silence/interrupt effects against spellcasting. My question: do we even have one? Can we get one through tactics, without speccing 13 Hoeth?

Also, do I absolutely need silence against casters, or is there a way to hinder them effectively without silence? And if I spec 13 Hoeth 1x Khaine, wil I fare much worse against melee, or is it okay?

One last note: how much dps do I lose if I go 9 Vaul for spell interrupt with a shield bash? That way I would have 2 ways of interrupting casters, but I guess my burst goes down, as I use only a 1 h sword and shield doesn't help against casters.

Thx in advance!

edit: typos

[Aeri]

3)a)Probably Hoeth, so you can pick up Aethyric Armor (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9033). Its tooltip is bugged, it increases armor mitigation percentage by around 15%, not 5.
b)Yeah, wounds and toughness. Mostly toughness with a main tank, as you just want a HP pool big enough to absorb any burst, then toughness to take the strain off your healers.

While I agree Hoeth is definitely a better secondary line for Vaul, AA doesn't increase armor by a %, it's just a straight armor increase. You can unequip all your armor, and it will still give you some.

As an additive to part b from your reply, I'd say toughness > wounds for the renown training. The amount of wounds you get for your points is quite small, and doesn't really benefit you as much as toughness will in the long run. IMO, it's better to spend those points on +block training.

@Wrongel:

The only silence we get is Whispering Wind, the rank 13 Hoeth ability you mentioned. Depending on what abilities you choose throughout the trees, it is "possible" to get both WW and Ether Dance, when you have a very high renown rank. Overall, though, it'd be best to just find the one you like better out of the two, since you'll probably spend points on other abilities/tactics throughout the trees.

Generally, there are two ways to deal with casters: kill them, or silence them. If you can't silence them through lack of the ability, then it's best to focus on doing as much spike damage as you possibly can, so you can take them out of the fight. Taunt can interrupt an attack, but it has a fairly long timer, so you may only use it once or twice a fight on a caster.

IMO, Vaul and Khaine are, to an extent, mutually exclusive spec lines - if you go one, the other won't help nearly as much as using Hoeth for the secondary line. Going Hoeth/Vaul or Vaul/Hoeth will still allow you to have some pretty decent damage output, and you'll get a lot of utility for killing casters: WW, Crushing Advance, etc. You might not be able to take them down "as fast", but you will probably be able to kill healers faster since you can constantly interrupt them, denying them healing. Taunt, chain CA and WW, then just rotate between the first chain attack and CA till Taunt and WW are refreshed.

[lasmrah]

While I agree Hoeth is definitely a better secondary line for Vaul, AA doesn't increase armor by a %, it's just a straight armor increase. You can unequip all your armor, and it will still give you some.

Yeah, sorry, my post was a little unclear. I figured giving the actual number wouldn't mean much to people, since most people aren't really familiar with how many points of armor a swordmaster would have at any particular level. I meant that Aethyric Armor increases your armor by a flat value that ends up increasing your armor mitigation percentage by about 15%. Like, on my swordmaster, it takes him from 69% mitigation to 73% mitigation.

[Drem]

Are tanks overplayed?
Ahhh! No way, not on Order! We are so tank deficient IMO. Destruction has tanks galore because there are so many fans of Chosen and Black Orcs. Order is not so lucky. Many people (like me) don't want to play a Dwarf, ever, either because Dwarves have no appeal or they don't like playing short characters. Then the Swordmaster is less popular either because of his "dress," or just his largely unappealing not-so-deadly look compared to the Destruction tanks. We really need a Knight of the Burning Sun to encourage more Order tanks, IMO. I'm guessing Black Guard will come at the same time as Knight will, so the imbalance of Destruction tanks and Order tanks will always be present because Black Guard will have a large(r) following as well. :rolleyes:

If you are considering a Swordmaster, I'd like to ask that you please play one. We really need more tanks out there for Order.

[Aeri]

Yeah, sorry, my post was a little unclear. I figured giving the actual number wouldn't mean much to people, since most people aren't really familiar with how many points of armor a swordmaster would have at any particular level. I meant that Aethyric Armor increases your armor by a flat value that ends up increasing your armor mitigation percentage by about 15%. Like, on my swordmaster, it takes him from 69% mitigation to 73% mitigation.

True. I've tested it a couple times, and I can never remember the numbers it gives. I think it's like +675 or something, at rank 40 with the minimum number of points in Hoeth.

Was fun getting 100.3% damage reduction from armor using it, during some of the beta tests. XD

[Wrongel]

@Wrongel:
The only silence we get is Whispering Wind, the rank 13 Hoeth ability you mentioned. Depending on what abilities you choose throughout the trees, it is "possible" to get both WW and Ether Dance, when you have a very high renown rank.
(...)
Going Hoeth/Vaul or Vaul/Hoeth will still allow you to have some pretty decent damage output, and you'll get a lot of utility for killing casters: WW, Crushing Advance, etc. You might not be able to take them down "as fast", but you will probably be able to kill healers faster since you can constantly interrupt them, denying them healing. Taunt, chain CA and WW, then just rotate between the first chain attack and CA till Taunt and WW are refreshed.

Thanks for the answer! So it seems if I want to play 200% safe against healers, casters, then shield+1h is the way to go, 9 V/ 13 H +3 points anywhere. Too bad I like 2h more, but then again as I checked, you can block (disrupt?) spells (even debuffs?) with a shield, so it's actually a win-win decision against casters, _and_ greatly helps against melee.

[Aeri]

Thanks for the answer! So it seems if I want to play 200% safe against healers, casters, then shield+1h is the way to go, 9 V/ 13 H +3 points anywhere. Too bad I like 2h more, but then again as I checked, you can block (disrupt?) spells (even debuffs?) with a shield, so it's actually a win-win decision against casters, _and_ greatly helps against melee.

Yes, a shield can negate damage from any source - melee, ranged, or magic. Granted, you have to be facing the direction the damage is coming from, so if a caster is at your back then it's not much help.

However, Aethyric Armor provides a +5% disrupt bonus, along with the normal +armor bonus, which will help against casters as well.

Also, with making Hoeth your main spec line, you can set one of your tactic sets to a DoT spam build - Centuries of Training + Ensorcelled Agony, and spamming Ensorcelled Blow can really put out some nasty damage, until you run out of AP. For the short while that you can keep the spam up, it will probably out-DPS a greatsword SM using a full chain + Ether Dance.

[Ashuran]

In renown tactics, there are many tactics that invlove "killing" a greenskin, a chaos, or a dark elf for it to activate. What does this "killing" mean? How does it define in game mechanics? Does it mean the killing blow? Or is attacking the target and help killing it consider killing? Or is it simply by being near the enemy player who got killed by another friendly player in group be consider your kill also?