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lasmrah
08-19-2008, 12:52 PM
Hey guys, I hope you're ready for info now that the NDA is down! First, I'm going to say a couple of really general things some of you are probably wondering.

All Swordmaster attacks (except maybe Throw) are improved only by Strength. Intelligence is entirely useless to us. Again, all abilities, including Hoeth, are improved by Strength. Yay, we don't have to spread our stats!

The difference between using a greatsword and a shield is smaller than you may expect. Abilities only do a small amount of additional damage with a greatsword compared to a shield. However, your white auto-attack damage is MUCH higher with a greatsword. Shields also do not generally have any armor on them, just stats and a block rating.

The balance mechanic is plenty of fun, though you cannot use improved balance abilities while in perfect balance. You can however always use normal balance moves. All perfect balance moves are FREE, as in NO COST, so there is plenty of reason to do full chains. Also, all perfect balance moves always have their effect, they got rid of the 50%/100% thing.

All three mastery paths are definitely viable in both PvE and RvR. No, really! For a quick summary, Path of Khaine has great single-target damage and decent AoE damage, Path of Hoeth has great AoE damage and decent single-target damage, and Path of Vaul has decent single-target damage and great defenses.

Okay, hope everyone enjoyed that! I'm not going to go into more detail about the three paths. Allow me to first say a disclaimer: I personally almost always use a greatsword, and prefer Path of Hoeth to the other two paths, so I will have more detail about that tree.

The Path of Khaine! This path really must be used with a greatsword, as two of its abilities require one. The three abilities you can purchase are all very useful and worth getting and form the main combo you will use. Gryphon's Lash deals a decent amount of damage and cannot be blocked or parried. Phoenix's Wing deals a large amount of damage in a frontal cone, and generates extra threat. Ether Dance is a 3 second channel that deals almost twice as much damage as the next best perfect balance move. I also believe Ether Dance is immune to setback, though I could be wrong.

The Path of Khaine is worthwhile as Ether Dance just deals such a ludicrously large amount of damage, and Phoenix's Wing is the highest damage AoE. This enables you to deal large amounts of single target damage, and also play as an offtank who can gather up large numbers of non-champion mobs and tank them at once with Phoenix's Wing, as it generates extra threat. I also should say that our 40% 10 second snare, Quick Incision, is in this tree so having more damage on that is always nice. The perfect balance move for Khaine that you get just by leveling is Blurring Shock, and it kindof sucks on its own; pure spirit damage, but least damage of any single target finisher. However there is a tactic that gives it a knockback effect, and it is spammable every third move! You can still use that tactic if you spec somewhere else, you just won't do as much damage.

The Path of Vaul! This path *should* be used with a shield, though it is not as vital as the greatsword is to the Path of Khaine. If you aren't using a shield you can skip 2 of the 3 abilities, as they require a shield. In the mastery you get Redirected Force: deals a large amount of damage and generates tons of threats, requires a block before you can use it. Crushing Advance: deal some damage, interrupt your target, and buffs your armor fairly significantly for I believe 5 seconds. Requires a shield. Crashing Wave: High damage finisher (distant second highest to Ether Dance, tied with Dragon's Talon) that knocks down the target.

In the standard abilities you get from leveling, the notables are Dragon's Talon which reduces your target's damage output by 20% for 5 seconds, Eagle's Flight, 25% parry increase for 5 seconds, and graceful strike, aggro generator and highest damaging normal balance ability (after counting the 5 second DoT). Due to graceful strike and dragon's talong being high damage moves, the path of vaul does decent single-target damage and if also using Eagle's Flight drastically increases your survivability; they do 20% less damage and you parry 25% more of the time. This path is of course perfect for tanking in PvE, and viable in RvR as you still output a decent amount of damage. This is still enough damage to, with a greatsword and taunt, solo-kill some healers. They can't heal through the damage alone, though maybe they could if you wear a shield, I'm not sure.

Path of Hoeth! My personal favorite! In the mastery you get 2 great abilities, 1 useless one. Whispering Wind is a 5 second silence finisher which does slightly less damage than dragon's talon, though still more than blurring shock. And aethyric armor is badass. A 30 minute self-buff (so always on) which increases your disrupt chance by 5% and drastically increases your armor, taking me from about 60% damage mitigation to about 80% damage mitigation (in RvR gear). Best single point spent ever. The path also gets just from leveling gusting wind, a full 360 degree PBAoE that does decent damage, and the finisher Wrath of Hoeth: 30 foot PBAoE that does good damage and reduces all opponent's spiritual resistance by a large amount. They also have the normal balance starter Ensorcelled Blow, which does pure spirit damage.

Path of Hoeth has amazing AoE, as 2 out of 3 moves in every chain can be an AoE. Their single target damage is also good almost entirely because of one tactic: Ensorcelled Agony. This tactic adds a 5 second DoT to Ensorcelled Blow that brings its damage up to total awesomeness. I unfortunately am forgetting right now, and I'm at work so I can't log on to check, but I'm pretty sure it causes Ensorcelled Blow to deal more damage than any other move, barring Ether Strike. As it deals entirely spirit damage, it is also enhanced by Wrath of Hoeth.

Okay, from now on this is going to be *very* much just my opinion. Firstly I have no idea how well you fare in RvR with a shield and defensively specced. But, offensively, a swordmaster can function as a heavy melee dps; less damage than mdps certainly, but enough to kill RDPS and healers if they aren't defended for sure. So as a swordmaster I can charge into battle and survive for a long, long time if I have healing and keep whoever is healing me from dying. Even alone I can survive a long time spamming Eagle's Flight and Dragon's Talon, long enough for reinforcements to arrive in scenarios. This is true from tier 1 to tier 4, in my experience. I love this class.

However, one thing is key to playing offensively as I just described: stacking strength. If you are Hoeth, you can ignore weapon skill as you deal spirit damage, otherwise get that too. I find just being a tank and just wearing str focused gear (though not to an extreme; 7 str 7 toughness is better than 8 str 3 toughness still) I get enough defensive stats to survive burst damage in RvR. Just to say it again because for an offensive tank it is key, STACK STRENGTH! If you do that, you will go far.

Okay, I'm going to lunch, but I'll be back later to answer any questions you have. Cheers!

Edit: I forgot a couple basic things to say. In PvE it takes about 4-5 moves to kill someone if str stacking and wearing a greatsword, so 1 combo and a bit. At level 35 I could take on 4 level 37 mobs at once Hoeth spec and win...barely.

Deshiva
08-19-2008, 01:04 PM
FLoating on cloud nine, good info mate good write up. Thanks a ton

scratchysealtttv
08-19-2008, 01:15 PM
Awesome work, I'm glad to see that you wrote this up before the NDA lifted and got such a great review it right as it was lifted.

It's interested to see that they get pbaoe and cone damage, and attacks that do full spirit damage. Does spirit damage ignore armor? That could make up for the fact that it does a little less than others. (debuff spirit, then slice em up)

GreyBones
08-19-2008, 01:22 PM
Great post, though damn you for making it even harder to chose what I want as a main. Path of Hoeth sounds great. I've always enjoyed being a magical swordsman but most games always focus on Holy and Unholy swordsmen.

Waffles
08-19-2008, 01:25 PM
How do high tier swordmasters look? Show us some screenshots. We demand it! :)

Odiamh
08-19-2008, 01:26 PM
Looks like I can rest easy that Hoeth is a good spec then thanks for the info!

Miotoss
08-19-2008, 01:31 PM
Here is a level 40 sm
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j74/Miotoss/MiotossM_025.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j74/Miotoss/MiotossM_022.jpg

lasmrah
08-19-2008, 01:38 PM
Awesome work, I'm glad to see that you wrote this up before the NDA lifted and got such a great review it right as it was lifted.

It's interested to see that they get pbaoe and cone damage, and attacks that do full spirit damage. Does spirit damage ignore armor? That could make up for the fact that it does a little less than others. (debuff spirit, then slice em up)

Yes. All the attacks that I said were spirit damage ignore armor. As it stands, armor applies to damage that is essentially untyped, and then you have resistances to spirit, corporeal, and elemental damage types. So the majority of Hoeth abilities ignore armor completely.

Also, if I wasn't entirely clear, the PBAoE attacks do less damage than the single target attacks, though not by much; even a full 15 points into Vaul and 0 in Hoeth you just need to hit 2 people for gusting wind to do more damage than Eagle's Flight, for example.

Edit: And yes, debuff spirit with Wrath of Hoeth then going to town on them with Ensorcelled Blow is brutally effective. Seeing as how tanks get 60-80% mitigation, and after one application of Wrath of Hoeth most people are at 0 spiritual resistance, it works quite well. However, few classes deal spiritual damage so you aren't helping out your groupmates much unless they are swordmasters, archmages, or I think warrior priests.

Waffles
08-19-2008, 01:41 PM
Here is a level 40 sm
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j74/Miotoss/MiotossM_025.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j74/Miotoss/MiotossM_022.jpg


Looking great!

Marlaander
08-19-2008, 02:27 PM
In training the paths, do you recommend the 100% into 1 and like 25% into another or more of a 75/75 split?

Personal opinion...I understand its more play style. Also, if you were going to 100/25 it, which spec do you think is most effective with only 25% completion?

Miotoss
08-19-2008, 02:33 PM
In training the paths, do you recommend the 100% into 1 and like 25% into another or more of a 75/75 split?

Personal opinion...I understand its more play style. Also, if you were going to 100/25 it, which spec do you think is most effective with only 25% completion?

In my opinion your rank 4 morale for khaine is irrepacable, that being said I would never get every ability and tactic out of khaine I like some hoeth too. :)

KeK
08-19-2008, 02:37 PM
are ironbreakers as good as Swordmasters as a 2h tank.

Miotoss
08-19-2008, 02:40 PM
In my opinion Swordmaster do better overall damage as where an Ironbreaker makes up for that with some group utility. In short the 2 handers enhance damage for both, but SM's do more.

lasmrah
08-19-2008, 03:03 PM
In training the paths, do you recommend the 100% into 1 and like 25% into another or more of a 75/75 split?

Personal opinion...I understand its more play style. Also, if you were going to 100/25 it, which spec do you think is most effective with only 25% completion?

Actually, based on what you purchase, you can get almost 100%/50% in two paths. You have 25 points by rank 40, and each tree is only 15 points deep. Personally I'm going 15 into Path of Hoeth, picking up Whispering Wind and Aethyric Armor, and then going 8 into Path of Vaul.

I would recommend only doing 2 trees though, or else you lose too much effectiveness. As I'm an offensive player, I'd recommend filling out Khaine or Hoeth however much you want then dumping remaining points into Path of Vaul.

I say Path of Vaul makes a great secondary tree because the Hoeth and Khaine abilities are largely for doing damage, and so aren't as much worth it unless being maxed. Vaul abilities, on the other hand, are about their secondary effects (extra aggro, 25% more parry, 20% less incoming damage, etc) and so getting a little extra damage whenever you want their effects is great. Not that maxing Vaul is a bad idea, just not how I play :)

Woren
08-19-2008, 05:05 PM
Thanks to this class's community and Guides, its official my alt will be a swordmaster. I have to play runepriest first howevever.(Hey someone has to do the dirty work and keep you pale skined goody too shoes elves up heh.)

Izule
08-19-2008, 05:57 PM
Is the barrier under the Hoeth path any good that absorbs damage? Im not sure wether to get it or go with Ether Dance.

Miotoss
08-19-2008, 06:13 PM
Is the barrier under the Hoeth path any good that absorbs damage? Im not sure wether to get it or go with Ether Dance.

currently my opinion is no , but will get fixed.

Tenryuu
08-20-2008, 09:13 AM
Thanks for the information. I have a habit of picking classes and choosing the gimped path and being too stuborn to change. When I heard the names of the paths, I immediately latched on to Hoeth and hope to the gods that my luck didn't continue.

Enix
08-20-2008, 10:39 AM
Well That settles it for me, im going full Khaine and with renown bought points going full Hoeth, Vaul can jump in a swamp give me ETHER DANCE!

Trynthlas
08-20-2008, 10:45 AM
FLoating on cloud nine, good info mate good write up. Thanks a ton

ha. made you happy didnt it Deshiva!

Great write up, thanks for it OP.

lasmrah
08-20-2008, 12:25 PM
Is the barrier under the Hoeth path any good that absorbs damage? Im not sure wether to get it or go with Ether Dance.

Right now it is really sucky. Example, full 15 points in Hoeth at level 35, I had 6600 health or so, and it absorbed 300 damage. That's why I didn't really mention it in my guide. You go Hoeth more for Aethyric Armor, which is I think the single best mastery point spent, Whispering Wind, and getting great damage with Wrath of Hoeth debuff / Ensorcelled Agony enhanced Blow combo.

Just some additional comparisons, at level 35 trying out full 15 points into each path and using a greatsword, and against a level 37 shield-wearing mob. These are rough estimates based off of repeatedly fighting the same type mob, for PvE only.

3-4 moves with Path of Khaine to kill. Gryphon's Lash, Phoenix's Wing, Ether Dance, and usually dead, if I was lucky with crits/procs. Otherwise another GL. I'd say about 2 in 5 took 3 hits, rest took 4.

3-5 moves with Path of Hoeth to kill. Usually Ensorcelled Blow, Dazzling Strike, Whispering Wind, Ensorcelled Blow and dead. If multiple crits, they'd die on WW. If 2 moves were parried, took another EB. I'd say 1 in 5 took 3 hits, 1 in 5 took 5, 3 in 5 took 4.

4-5 moves with Path of Vaul to kill. Graceful Strike, Eagle's Flight, Dragon's Talon, Graceful Strike, Eagle's Talon. If lucky with crits or procs, dead on the second GS. I'd say 1 in 3 were 4, rest were 5.

As for AoEing, both Vaul and Hoeth could take on 4 mobs at once, just Vaul would take longer to kill them (maybe about as long as killing 3 guys 1 by 1), whereas Hoeth could kill all 4 in the time it would normally take to kill 2. Khaine could only take on 3 mobs at once and would kill them around the same time Hoeth would kill all 4 of his. This is primarily because Hoeth has Aethyric Armor, allowing him to survive long enough to finish them all off.

Khaine does still have an AoE role, however, as Phoenix's Wing is the only AoE that generate extra aggro, so he makes a great offtank to gather up large spawns.

Izule
08-20-2008, 03:39 PM
Well That settles it for me, im going full Khaine and with renown bought points going full Hoeth, Vaul can jump in a swamp give me ETHER DANCE!

You can buy mastery points with Renown Points?

lasmrah
08-20-2008, 03:41 PM
You can buy mastery points with Renown Points?

no, but you get 4 additional mastery points at really high renown levels - either 60, 65, 70, 75 or 40, 50, 60, 70 or something like that - and then at renown rank 80 all three trees get a bonus point. This doesn't cost any renown points, you just get it when you hit those ranks.

RailinTemper
08-20-2008, 03:55 PM
This is something about the masteries that bugged me, with the extra reknown mastery points you end up with something like 32 points total making it possible to max out two trees. Also, if you already have a maxed out tree and you hit RR 80 does that bump it up to 16? Can you really even go that high?

lasmrah
08-20-2008, 04:06 PM
This is something about the masteries that bugged me, with the extra reknown mastery points you end up with something like 32 points total making it possible to max out two trees. Also, if you already have a maxed out tree and you hit RR 80 does that bump it up to 16? Can you really even go that high?

Sorry, I don't know anyone who has gotten to RR 80 so I can't talk about what happens then. But yes, you can max out 2 trees - if you pick up 0 of the abilities in both, which is a fairly poor choice as there are some amazing abilities. I believe you can indeed get higher than 15 mastery points in a tree - there's some talk of endgame gear having +mastery points as a stat. I forget what, but they said that the limit with gear is having your mastery trees at I believe 25 or 30 points, I don't remember. Can someone confirm I'm remembering this right?

Datura
08-20-2008, 04:44 PM
Thanks for your summation. I think you just helped me decide on a main.

Venomghost
08-20-2008, 04:55 PM
Great info man...i will be speccing hoeth/vaul...hopefully i dnt get ate by chosen have u fought one of those and can give some feed back on how well SMs stand against a tank?

lasmrah
08-20-2008, 05:14 PM
Great info man...i will be speccing hoeth/vaul...hopefully i dnt get ate by chosen have u fought one of those and can give some feed back on how well SMs stand against a tank?

1 on 1, I usually win against a tank unless they have serious (4+) levels on me or much better gear (eg, I'm in tier 2 and they have the rank 20 rr 11 from tier 3 and I don't).

I find at least the Hoeth spec is spectacular against tanks for a couple reasons. First, it deals mainly spirit damage, and so totally ignores tank's main advantage: serious armor. As in, around 66% damage mitigation in good gear. Even if the tank has spiritual resistance, Hoeth comes with Wrath of Hoeth which will drop that resist, too.

Second, Swordmasters have Eagle's Flight, which increases our parry chance by 25% for 5 seconds (long enough to keep it up permantently if you have less than 1/6 second of lag between attacks). While many destro tanks have serious armor penetration, so they get through our armor almost as well as we get through theirs, there is no real way they can counter our parry buff.

So with a chain of Ensorcelled Blow + Agony, Eagle's Flight, Wrath of Hoeth, I keep my parry rate at around 35% and beat on them really hard. This is primarily how I deal with them, though I alternate WoH with Whispering Wind as WW does more damage. And taunt whenever you can; with such a high parry rate they generally have to launch 4 attacks to get rid of it.

Approx. even level tanks I find I kill with around 20% health left, usually, though I have not done any serious testing with someone whose gear and skill I know.

This is partially due to the way tanks are balanced. According to someone's testing in beta (I don't know if its true or not, if anyone has done testing *please* respond) Swordmasters do more damage than any other thank, due to a lot of our abilities and tactics giving us powerful DoTs. So, against a tank, and using Eagle's Flight, I can drag out the fight long enough for my DoTs to seriously add up.

I use a greatsword and the following spec/tactics in RvR (level 35):
http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=17#0:0:3:0:15:8224
Focused Offense, Ensorcelled Agony, Potent Enchantments / Forceful Shock

therealdecoy
08-20-2008, 11:42 PM
Dragon's Talon (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9006), at the moment, only has a four second cripple effect. It's five with Dampening Talon (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9044). Crushing Advance (http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=9027) also increases Block Rating by for 10 seconds, not Armor for five.

Can a PoV Swordmaster kill things? Sure! Is it the most effective use of the spec? Absolutely not. If you want to use a 2h weapon the most effectively then PoV is not for you. If you want to play a support melee DPS class that deals damage while also reducing the damage you and your team take then PoV is the best choice for you.

samatarian
08-21-2008, 02:41 AM
I use a greatsword and the following spec/tactics in RvR (level 35):
http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=17#0:0:3:0:15:8224
Focused Offense, Ensorcelled Agony, Potent Enchantments / Forceful Shock[/quote]

Thanks for your information, but I still have a couple of questions and I hope you dont mind answering for me.......

It seems that some people, including you, skip the final skill in each tree, at least both spec of Khaine and Hoeth. Could you tell me the answer?

Second, do you suggest that we ignore passive skills in each spec? It seems you are doing so now....... are those passive skills useless?

Third, Could you give me an advice focusing on path of Khaine as the the first choice and that of Hoeth as the second?

I hope you can bear my poor english, because I am an asian, and this game will also be released in my country next year.....

Deshiva
08-21-2008, 02:58 AM
ok wierd, Double posted and messed up my quote. Please delete this one. Thanks

Deshiva
08-21-2008, 02:59 AM
Thanks for your information, but I still have a couple of questions and I hope you dont mind answering for me.......

It seems that some people, including you, skip the final skill in each tree, at least both spec of Khaine and Hoeth. Could you tell me the answer?

Second, do you suggest that we ignore passive skills in each spec? It seems you are doing so now....... are those passive skills useless?

Third, Could you give me an advice focusing on path of Khaine as the the first choice and that of Hoeth as the second?

I hope you can bear my poor english, because I am an asian, and this game will also be released in my country next year.....

I'm going to take a wild guess and say it is because it's a rank 4 morale ability, morale abilities take time to get access to. And a rank 4 is the highest and slowest to access. So you might not get use out of it very often.

Aeri
08-21-2008, 03:17 AM
I'm going to take a wild guess and say it is because it's a rank 4 morale ability, morale abilities take time to get access to. And a rank 4 is the highest and slowest to access. So you might not get use out of it very often.

That's pretty much correct. In normal play, I've found that taking the time to actually save up for a rank 4 morale ability is far outweighed by its usefulness. Unless you have a guild standard out with +morale generation, or items with +morale on them, it usually takes a couple minutes of straight fighting to save up to rank 4. Using a rank 1, 2, or even 3 morale ability will usually be more worthwhile.

Also, with the exception of maybe healers and caster RDPS careers, I highly doubt that most people will be able to stay alive, in battle, long enough during RvR to use a rank 4 morale.

As such, spending the point on another ability or another tree would be more beneficial. There is still a rank 4 morale core ability for each career, so by the time you get to that level, you will have something to put in that slot.


Second, do you suggest that we ignore passive skills in each spec? It seems you are doing so now....... are those passive skills useless?

Third, Could you give me an advice focusing on path of Khaine as the the first choice and that of Hoeth as the second?

I'm not sure exactly what you're meaning by passive skills. If you're talking about the tactics, many people skip various ones through the mastery trees because you have a limited number of tactic slots.

You get a fair number of tactics through the core skills, quite a few of which are pretty decent. A lot of times, spending a point elsewhere in a mastery line will be more beneficial than a small damage increase via a mastery tactic. For example, Deep Incision doesn't increase damage an exceptional amount, and could be replaced with something like Centuries of Training or Potent Enchantments, especially if Quick Incision isn't one of your main rotation skills.

Passive skills like Aethyric Armor (from the Hoeth tree) are quite beneficial for any build, but you may choose to spend that mastery point on something else. An example would be an even split between Khaine and Hoeth, where you need multiple tactics/abilities in both, and would rather have extra damage than the extra armor.

For your third question, you've pretty much answered yourself: focus on the Path of Khaine, get the skills/tactics you want from that, then start building the Hoeth tree. By the time you hit rank 40, you have quite a few different choices, and you can always respec if you want. Try different things out, and find what works best for you.

lasmrah
08-21-2008, 09:02 AM
I use a greatsword and the following spec/tactics in RvR (level 35):
http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=17#0:0:3:0:15:8224
Focused Offense, Ensorcelled Agony, Potent Enchantments / Forceful Shock

Thanks for your information, but I still have a couple of questions and I hope you dont mind answering for me.......

It seems that some people, including you, skip the final skill in each tree, at least both spec of Khaine and Hoeth. Could you tell me the answer?

Second, do you suggest that we ignore passive skills in each spec? It seems you are doing so now....... are those passive skills useless?

Third, Could you give me an advice focusing on path of Khaine as the the first choice and that of Hoeth as the second?

I hope you can bear my poor english, because I am an asian, and this game will also be released in my country next year.....[/quote]

Aeri got it right, I didn't get the final skill because I wouldn't really use it, I always use one of the earlier ranked moral abilities. I also am skipping the tactics because there are more than enough good tactics in the default build for most purposes. I am going to pick up Bolstering Enchantments eventually though, but right now it's bugged in beta and lags you out whenever you use it, so I don't have it currently selected.

As for going Khaine/Hoeth, I would make sure to get enough points into Hoeth to pick up Aethyric Armor, and then mostly focus on Khaine. Something like this: http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=17#15:8864:0:0:5:32