Mutations: Temporary Buffs?

[Ralzar]

Q: (Insert question here about mutation.)

A: Our Steve Marvin, whose business card says “Lead Designer,” died a little inside when I hit him with this very popular category of questions. See, we’re still doing design work on the Chaos army. There’s a lot of row left to hoe before we know much for certain here. But I’ve seen a lot of wild speculation on the boards and in my email, and wanted to let you guys in our thought process. As Steve puts it:

“We are planning at present to have some mutations, but they will be specific to the careers that use them, and will likely be temporary, not permanent and encroaching.” And of course, even our plans at this stage can’t be set in stone, because they are entirely “still subject to art constraints and tech.”

Basically, I want you guys to rein in the expectations a little and wait and see what we actually do. We’ve got to try and design mutations/chaos that isn’t as… shall we say, “overwhelmingly devastating” as it is in that nifty game trailer. Because that’s fun to watch, and fun to play, but maybe not so fun to play *against* day in and day out. At the same time, we’re going to make it all cool and true to the Warhammer world.

Anyone else getting some iffy feelings about this? Are we just going to be standard marauders that sometimes mutate and then go back to being normal a little while later?
I'm mostly behind everything Mythic does, and understand that the lore has to be bent a bit for a different medium, but this just seems wrong.

[Lemures]

The temporary mutations comment does seem a bit, strange. I admit though I don't know enough about how Chaos really is to make much comment. Being that, temporary mutations sound kinda.... booty. I can understand what he's saying about the game trailer, that chaos warrior seeming like it would beat the ever loving... stuff, out of everything else showin in the trailer. But what does that have to do with making mutations temporary? Maybe someone else knows the answer to this.

I see mutations as having game effecting properties, but I thought it would mostly just be for looks. I'd hate to have all that just be temporary. Eh I dunno. We'll see what they come up with though being that Chaos is still so early in development.

[Drunkenmaster]

I really hope they add small mutations as a sign of tier progression :) Wouldn't be chaos otherwise

[Tae]

If anyone who was in IRC last night has the conversation logs, can you just post them here as I really don't want to type out the entire argument again :confused:

[Snoopy]

Umm the mutations could have combat bonuses like being able to spit stuff out of a second jaw inside your mouth or increase attack speed by growing an arm or a tenticle would be suitable (and bound to get unbalanced if they dont tread lightly)

The fact they are temporary does not make sense lore wise (i know a fair bit about lore in fantasy chaos and even more on 40k chaos which are similar), mutations tend to be permanent effects of the ruinous powers of chaos on your body. Perhaps chaos sorceres could have buffs or something or you spring mutations as certain classes develop (they could have the fantasy version of 40k possessed which are pretty much mutants.

Bit too early to speculate, im still waiting for the next newsletter :neutral:

[Elgareth]

Hehe, maybe each one mutation is temporary, but they always switch around ^_^

So, for an exaggerated example: You have a Tentacle as third arm and...a spiked tail for a while, then the tentacle slurps back into your body and you get a second head instead, then after some other while your tail falls off and one leg transforms into a hoof :D

That would be funky ^_^

[saltbush]

then again according to lore a lot of mutations are actually a bad thing for the reciever, i'm sure they won't put those in either :)

[Gahn]

To me it seems that naturally Chaos will have Mutations as an eye candy (Like Dwarfs got beards signs etc) BUT Chaos "Buffs" will be at tactics tier. I guess that's what he meant when he said no1 wanna play against a god mode character.

[Seldaren]

Yeah, Tzeentch without mutations would be... odd. Tzeentch's followers are more likely to have mutations than the other Gods (I believe).

But it is a bit of a challenge to the artists to have the mutations, I can understand that.
And it's a bit of a challenge for the gameplay too.

Mutations can quickly overpower a character, or they can quickly make a player useless (kinda hard to wield a sword with a tentacle, or wear normal armor when you've got three arms).

It's just not as simple as saying, "yes! let's include mutations!".

Seldaren

[Y'vess]

Temporary mutations I guess could work for Tzeentch because of the Lord of change aspect. Overall though I would prefer mutations that could be toggled on or off after recieving them based on career path options. The mutation effect would be as permanent as any other career choice unless you respec only the visual aspect would be optional.

For example say you chose a tough hide +1T +3W or something you could gain some scales on your skin however if you don't like the way they look you can toggle them off so they don't show much like you can toggle off a helmet or cloak but still count as wearing them.

The suggestion of temporary mutations sounds to me much like the way a lot of buffs work in game. Say for example you cast a buff that gives everyone +1 attack that could be translated into one or both of your hands turning into razor sharp claws. Say you want thorn skin, you would run around with spikey skin. When the buff wears off so does the visual effect.

[Lemures]

Two things to throw in here that might mean something to the topic.. from the newsletter.

"A Chaos god can often show his favor by way of "marking" an individual with his symbol. This symbol bestows powers commensurate with the sphere of influence that the god controls. Further gifts and mutations are often bestowed if the god continues to be pleased with the works of his subject."
That sounds like a possible growth trait doesn't it? And I can't see a growth look being temporary... So maybe a plus for that at the very least.

"The Age of Reckoning is ushered in as a Warhost of the god Tzeentch, the Changer of Ways, marches on the Empire."

This might have already been known, I didn't know though, but Tzeentch has been chosen as the one god Chaos will have. And as far as I know, he's big into mutations.

The guy in that quote up there deffinatly doesn't sound like temporary powers is a for sure thing.. more of a possiblity.

[Tae]

Overall I dislike the notion of 'temporary' mutations. Mutations aren't temporary, they're permanent.

However, for the sake of balancing I don't think the game would suffer too much if mutations were temporary, however they would have to be temporary via a means other than time.

Why ? Because I don't want this kind of situation occuring :

"Quick, run, my 3rd arm disappears in 12 seconds!"

"Ah ha, your weapon bounces of my scaley sk...er, oh crap it's run out"

But if, say (as Garth suggested on irc) they gave a small hp bonus and disappeared when said hp bonus had been removed (i.e. scaley skin gives you +20 hp, when you lose that 20hp, you lose the skin) this would not only work well balancing wise, but would actually fit the whole notion of Chaos much better than the "omg 3rd arm timer has run out" rubbish.

[Lemures]

Overall I dislike the notion of 'temporary' mutations. Mutations aren't temporary, they're permanent.

However, for the sake of balancing I don't think the game would suffer too much if mutations were temporary, however they would have to be temporary via a means other than time.

Why ? Because I don't want this kind of situation occuring :

"Quick, run, my 3rd arm disappears in 12 seconds!"

"Ah ha, your weapon bounces of my scaley sk...er, oh crap it's run out"

But if, say (as Garth suggested on irc) they gave a small hp bonus and disappeared when said hp bonus had been removed (i.e. scaley skin gives you +20 hp, when you lose that 20hp, you lose the skin) this would not only work well balancing wise, but would actually fit the whole notion of Chaos much better than the "omg 3rd arm timer has run out" rubbish.

Hmm... but wouldn't gaining and losing scaly skin be almost as bad as sprouting a 3rd arm every now and then? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean there quite well of the skin being more understandable then the 3rd arm.

[Plainweasel]

They may be doing temporary mutations for other issues. Granted perma mutations are cool, but they could run into problems in gameplay/look/feel . i mean if i got a speed mutation and was given chicken legs and was stuck with it for the rest of my toons career i would be mad

[Lemures]

I'd assume we'd be able to see a permanent change before we pick it. Because not being able to see a change that is permanent, would just be among the highest levels of stupidity for the devs to do to a player. Right Mythic? :rolleyes:

[Ralzar]

I think my biggest problem with it is that it implies that you revert back to "normal" after a while. I can't really remember a single example of somone recieving a mutatuion and then "getting well" after a while. If one mutation changed into another mutation and so on, it would be ok, since having your body corrupted by the forces of chaos (Tzeench in particular) could have that type of effect. Leaving you in a constantly evolving/devolving body. Your scaly arm, evolves into a spikey arm, which turns green and then splits into two tentacles which then grow eyeballs on the tips and so on.

Once you're so tainted by chaos that you start mutating, you don't revert to normal unless by some extreme chance your mody mutates back into it's original shape.


I obvisouly realise that there's technical difficulties with mutations, but I'd readily accept fewer armour appearance options, for example, in exchange for more mutation appearances options. I just hate the thought of having to re-apply mutations to keep myself from becoming normal again.
Once you're mutated, there's not supposed to be a way back. It's a sign that you're irreversably marked by chaos and headed towards either deamonhood or spawnhood or death and eternal torment in the chaos realms.

[Tae]

Hmm... but wouldn't gaining and losing scaly skin be almost as bad as sprouting a 3rd arm every now and then? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean there quite well of the skin being more understandable then the 3rd arm.

Well that was only an example. The '3rd arm' one could be used in a similar fashion (i.e. gives you +1S and +1A, +40 hp and when you lose 40hp the arm is 'chopped off' or what have you), but essentially yes they are still the same problem in that they're both only temporary.

This is as opposed to how I would personally have liked them, and that would be for mutations to be a separate 'career path'. i.e. you have a Chaos Warrior, you fight, you kill, blah blah, your god loves you and gives you a mutation. Now you can have mutation a (lets say an extra arm), this gives you a basic stat increase of +1 A, ontop of this is unlocks various skills that relate to said extra arm (like attacks, debuffs etc.). Or you can have mutation b (lets say thick skin) which gives you a basic stat increase of +1T, ontop of which again you can unlock various skills relating to said thick skin etc. etc.

But, if Mythic are going down the former route (i.e. that they're a kind of 'buff' as opposed to a hard-coded career choice) then having them reliant on a factor other than time is what would, in my opinion, at least partly make up for this.

Having someone 'lose' their 3rd arm because they've taken 40hp is bad.
Having someone 'lose' their 3rd arm because a 30 second timer ran out is even worse.

[Crysalis]

Mutation will probably be linked to the skills which players can buy when leveling up.

They may even just be visual changes which the player can choose from when they buy the +stat upgrade packages which we have seen available.

They will most like be things like scaly skin +armour and simple things like that, I wouldnt think they will give players extra arms, but maybe change the look of the arm or hand, like we have seen from the video with the chaos warrior with a claw for a hard.

[nurgleman]

Yeah I don't like the idea of having only temporary mutations. it just seems off. I think they should be part of player progression.

[Elgareth]

And being able to turn them off is a bad idea, remember the WYSIWYG-Rule? Meaning when you see a... Human even if he has Dark Armor, he won't be much of a threat, unless you look like some peasant too...but if you see a Big, Mutated, Slimy Tentacle Human in heavy Spiked Armor, you better run, unless you twisted your dwarven beard around your whole body so that it won't scratch on the ground ^_^

Being able to turn them off would make you look weaker, and that would be bad ^_^ Just as making your Ork smaller would be bad too ^_^

Mutations could be tactics though...so more or less permanent buffs, as long as you want them to be, but you can change them after/before battles. So maybe one "tactic" is "Tentacle" which gives you...dunno some more damage, another is the "scale skin" which gives you more defense and so on and on, and when you pick them, the chosen mutations become visible. Since you'll always want as many tactics as possible in use, and you get more slots as you lvl, this would be enough of an indication maybe. This would work quite different from the "permanent" Visual Effects of the Orcs, but why not? :)

[Makaisson]

I've always thought that Chaos mutations would be almost entirely for looks. Granting neither stat bonuses or penalties. I imagined tentacles replacing arms, faces turning into skulls, mouths growing rather impressive fangs, legs buckling and taking on the appearance of those of a beast, horns sprouting from heads, hands replaced by crab claw like apendages... that sort of thing. Leaving all the stat bonuses left to career path choices etc.

That's what I imagined.

[V'raneth]

“We are planning at present to have some mutations, but they will be specific to the careers that use them, and will likely be temporary, not permanent and encroaching.” And of course, even our plans at this stage can’t be set in stone, because they are entirely “still subject to art constraints and tech.”

I sure hope this isn't set in stone. About the art constraints and tech, permanent mutation is not one of those things that strikes me as a technological challenge. If you can do it temporarily why couldn't you just leave it so? Surely the character growth dynamic isn't limited to scaling up parts of the character, ie. beards and orcs. I think having the mutations be career specific is perfectly reasonable, though.

"We’ve got to try and design mutations/chaos that isn’t as… shall we say, “overwhelmingly devastating” as it is in that nifty game trailer."

I really can not understand how that concern leads to the solution that mutations must be temporary. In many other games, stat bonuses gained from character development choices are quite permanent and I've never heard the argument that such bonuses are inherently "overwhelmingly devastating" because of their permanent nature. The only reason a problem would occur is if the mutations are both extremely powerful AND permanent. So, it's one or the other, and I believe a majority of chaos players were looking forward to uniquely mutating their characters as part of their visual strength/ability representation. I think you would find far fewer complaints if the decision was made that "Chaos players can not permanently kickass with their mutations," as opposed to "Chaos players can not make mutations part of their permanent appearance."

You could even have mutations that do kickass and still have the mutation's appearance permanent. For example, Daemonic wings. Your character could have a pair of black leathery wings folded onto his back. The fact that he has wings wouldn't mean that he constantly flew about the battlefield at high speeds at untouchable heights, it would simply grant him the ability (much like any other ability is granted in an MMO) to spread his pinions and glide to another location, at the expense of mana or energy or what have you (also just like any other skill).

This just seems to me to fit too perfectly into WAR, what with it's claim of being able to visually identify the strength and nature of your opponent, and the options it gives the person playing Chaos to distinguish themselves in a very Chaos way. I hope they reconsider this.

[Gorgeras]

I have an idea but as I'm not truly familiar with the Warhammer universe I could be making a bit of a lore-boob here:

Timers for buffs suck in every game. They suck. They don't suck like that trick you do with a bottle where you put a lit match in and watch an egg get magically sucked inside; that's quite cool. I mean they suck like leeches or people so greedy for their milkshake that they SUCK hard on the molecules of it left in the bottom of the cup through the damn straw. The sucking noise they inflict on others sucks.

I have always prefered games when they do buffs but they are semi-passive and fail under certain conditions like taking too much damage or a certain kind of damage.

So if you choose to grow(or the mechanics could make it semi-random depending on how you actively play) another tentacle for an additional auto-attack or some such, it could stay until it gets hacked off in some way. If your arm turns into a giant crocodile jaw and gets taken off in a fight, it could grow back your normal one. You can even opt to have a friend deliberately slice something off if you decide you don't like it.

Can anyone savvy on Warhammer lore tell me if this would be stretching it too far?

[Y'vess]

And being able to turn them off is a bad idea, remember the WYSIWYG-Rule?

Sorry not sure where you've heard this but I've never seen a developer comment on a WYSIWYG concept. They have said your appearence will reflect how powerfull you become at a glance they havn't said you will be able to tell exactly what those powers are.

Since there's a good chance you won't be seeing rings or pendants drawn on models such an idea is already flawed.

[havedeath]

You should be able to choose mutations in the skill packages..

Example: "Eye in the back of your head" +XX chance to dodge.

Not a temporary buff but small permanent mutations that you can gain one by one by choice in the skill packages.

[Ralzar]

I've always thought that Chaos mutations would be almost entirely for looks. Granting neither stat bonuses or penalties. I imagined tentacles replacing arms, faces turning into skulls, mouths growing rather impressive fangs, legs buckling and taking on the appearance of those of a beast, horns sprouting from heads, hands replaced by crab claw like apendages... that sort of thing. Leaving all the stat bonuses left to career path choices etc.

That's what I imagined.


Yeah, that's what I was expecting too. Because if you give mutations buffs, some mutations will automatically become preferable compared to others. So we end up with cookie-cutter mutants. "What? You don't have a third nipple?! We're not teaming with you!" ;)

I was expecting mutations to just be the chaos version of clothing basically. Not there to represent any abilities, but just to make oyur character look frikking cool.

And as V'raneth said, that quote about mutations beign overwhelmingly devestating just doesn't make any sense.
There's no hard rule that says that mutations have to be overpowered. What, they think GW is going to deny any chaos mutation that aren't overwhelmingly powerfull?
And what's the trailer got to do with mutations? All we see of that guy is that his arm is green. He didn't win by having the better skin complexion, he won by being totally badass at fighting. But he was still looking pretty much human doing it. If he'd had four arms with gigantic claws that ripped the priest apart within seconds, I could understand the argument. Did they consider "melee kickassery" a mutation or what?

[Wulfhelm der Rote]

And as V'raneth said, that quote about mutations beign overwhelmingly devestating just doesn't make any sense.
There's no hard rule that says that mutations have to be overpowered. What, they think GW is going to deny any chaos mutation that aren't overwhelmingly powerfull?


In my opinion mutations can be everything..well, everything but temporary. I hope they are not going to do this, and if they decide to I hope GW wont approve. I mean..
Just like so many people mentioned it may be ok ,it won't break the game. But mix in some other slight modification and this game simply might not be what some expected...:?

[sirfrancisdrake]

i can understand their concerns about art and tech problems. In order to provide lots of neat little mutations, theyd have to make a TON of different models, which i think is the way they should do it, but might be an entirely too expensive task.

[Snoopy]

Mutations should not be temporary unless maybe they are a sorcerer's magic offensive spell on oponents or something.

IMHO mutations should be options you can choose (which grant permanent bonuses and appear graphically on your character) when you level up, with perhaps a mutant class getting more options to have mutations as skills whereas the other clases can only choose a mutation every 5 levels or have less mutation options/gain less bonuses.

[Laser]

A mixture of permanent and temporary muatations should work but you choose which you can use E.g:

Chaos Mutant: That Slayer looks mighty tough! I know i'll use my left Tenticale which gives me +10 attack instead of my new eye wich gives my the abilitie to see in the dark

Slayer: O crap he's got a tenticale RUN!

Chaos mutant:He's running! I know i'll use my extra legs that give me increased speed to chase him

Slayer:Jesus hes catching up Help!

(3 engineers appear)

Engineer 1,2,3:HA HA DIE!!

(get there guns out)

Chaos mutant: O crap they have guns i know i'll stop useing my 3 legs and i'll use my Corrosive Flame breath on them

(Sounds of screaming and melting are heard)

[AlienOverlord]

Temporary combat-bonus mutations would be fine with me, but it would be nice if there were non-combat, visual mutations as well to indicate level like Orc-size and dwarf-beards. That seems so obvious that Mythic must be planning it, wouldn't they?

/worry

[Chilltouch]

A mixture of permanent and temporary muatations should work but you choose which you can use E.g:

Chaos Mutant: That Slayer looks mighty tough! I know i'll use my left Tenticale which gives me +10 attack instead of my new eye wich gives my the abilitie to see in the dark

Slayer: O crap he's got a tenticale RUN!

Chaos mutant:He's running! I know i'll use my extra legs that give me increased speed to chase him

Slayer:Jesus hes catching up Help!

(3 engineers appear)

Engineer 1,2,3:HA HA DIE!!

(get there guns out)

Chaos mutant: O crap they have guns i know i'll stop useing my 3 legs and i'll use my Corrosive Flame breath on them

(Sounds of screaming and melting are heard)

The hell? Are you sure you're talking about a mutant there and not a Chaos Spawn? If you've mutated enough to have all of that, you've almost definately mutated out of control and you are a mindless, gibbering mass of flesh.

Not fun to play.

[Titanium]

possibly these mutations will be similar as the racial skills on wow, like will of the forsaken.
good idea but i would like to see soem permanate things.
say if he is to grow a tenatacle(for arugments sake) then the arm which is to turn into it will look all bloody etc... getting my drift?

[spirit]

Ewww to temporary mutations. Sure, some mutations could be temporary, maybe in some kind of "unstable mutator" class, but I think permanant mutations need to be in the game. I know people dont want to be mutated without their consent, but most chaos players do WANT to be mutated.

[Ironhide]

Some mutations may be desirable as permanent, but far from all. But they may have to be considered as permanent "buffs", otherwise it would look quite bad.

(Just as bad as Laser's slayer running for his life ;) )

I have a hard time imagine mutations that disappear after a while.

[MachiavelliDisciple]

Aye, temporary mutations are a bad idea. Personally I cannot see why permenant mutations make someone over-powered, they could just not be as high-calibre. A permenant +damage bonus due to growing an extra arm wouldn't be too terrible would it? The only problem I can see is in having to create a pantheon of new models of their own armor graphics and animation for each and every new mutation would put a strain on the developers. But ho hum, things are hardly finalised at the moment so let us wait and see precisely what they intend to do before complaining.

[Vail]

Umm the mutations could have combat bonuses like being able to spit stuff out of a second jaw inside your mouth or increase attack speed by growing an arm or a tenticle would be suitable (and bound to get unbalanced if they dont tread lightly)

The fact they are temporary does not make sense lore wise (i know a fair bit about lore in fantasy chaos and even more on 40k chaos which are similar), mutations tend to be permanent effects of the ruinous powers of chaos on your body. Perhaps chaos sorceres could have buffs or something or you spring mutations as certain classes develop (they could have the fantasy version of 40k possessed which are pretty much mutants.

Bit too early to speculate, im still waiting for the next newsletter :neutral:

ummm not "totally" true. In 40k there is a Major Psychic Power that grants random deamon gifts called Mass Mutation. The gift lasts until the players next psychic phase. There are temp mutations.

Now, I personally am in favor of permanent player chosen mutations....PURPLE TENTICLE FOR THE WIN!

[Titanium]

i personaly want to look like the chaos knight in the movie, i dont want any tentacles or so.
as long as i get the buff and can cover it up i`m happy, however there might be a few mutation i like

with regards to the movie. note how the chaos knight has his left arm armour free, possibly showing that he mutates his arm there and then, ie further enforcing the idea of mythic wanting temporary buffs,
or it could just be a coincidence.

anyways i think we should have both permanate and temporary(to suit all the players)

[ConverseSC]

Why can't we have both?

Minor mutations with stat bonuses, toggable permanent mutations for "aesthetics".

[Ralzar]

The only problem I can see is in having to create a pantheon of new models of their own armor graphics and animation for each and every new mutation would put a strain on the developers.

This is why I've not been expecting any "major" mutations that change the body-shap of the character. Too much work implementing.

I was expecting to see a lot of minor mutations, like skin complexion and textures, chaotic marks, demonic facial features and so on.
I don't mind the concept of temporary mutations through spells and such, but the bit I quoted seemed to imply that this was how most, if not all, mutations would be implemented.

[Brother Olius]

i personaly want to look like the chaos knight in the movie, i dont want any tentacles or so.
as long as i get the buff and can cover it up i`m happy, however there might be a few mutation i like

with regards to the movie. note how the chaos knight has his left arm armour free, possibly showing that he mutates his arm there and then, ie further enforcing the idea of mythic wanting temporary buffs,
or it could just be a coincidence.

anyways i think we should have both permanate and temporary(to suit all the players)
Wait err did you just say left arm armor was free? so far as I could see there wasnt any gap there, do you mean how his arm is covered in some sort of bandage like material?

[Frein]

I demand permanent tentacles for groping purposes.

Seriously, though, I would like to see minor mutations such as tails, horns, etc, etc be permanent but in addition to those there could be massive mutations that turn you into huge freaks of nat...chaos that let you go on short rampages before you mutate back to your normal self.

[Ralzar]

Wait err did you just say left arm armor was free? so far as I could see there wasnt any gap there, do you mean how his arm is covered in some sort of bandage like material?

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=272&c=2

His arm has green leathery skin and black claws.

[Brother Olius]

Oh ok now i see, when i was look in the video i didnt realise his massive GREEN SCALY ARM! :oops:

[Titanium]

Oh ok now i see, when i was look in the video i didnt realise his massive GREEN SCALY ARM! :oops:

ye, its free of amour, unlike his right hand. mybe he was just feelin hot, mybe its not stylish back in chaosville mybe mybe mybe

for all we know, mythic might not even make models for the mutations, we would, say just activiate "demonic strength" and gain extra strength, nothing more :(
or they could just make eyes glow(glow even more) to get off easy.

i dont want to see any increases in size, that sucks and belongs to wow tooo much

[Cremok the feared]

There needs to be permenant mutations for everyones ones sake not just chaos.
Imagine if you where empire and see a load of chaos knights with no features to tell there level. You could end up fighting with a level one noob or a level 1 gazillion (yes i know there's no such number) Archaon clone. It's russian roulette

[Varangarian]

Mutations should be for looks, like orc size or dwarf beards.
Granting extra limbs and special mutation powers should come solely from career paths and be well thought of and conceived. I'd imagine only a few of these or none at all at release.
But definatly mutations and increase size for Chaos to deem their level.
But then I also think everyone should get a bit bigger as they level up, just orcs get bigger, Bigger.

Anyways, all the mutations in the world won't save the rot of Chaos from the Empire's wraith, because we have many leather bound books.

[Lemures]

Anyways, all the mutations in the world won't save the rot of Chaos from the Empire's wraith, because we have many leather bound books.

I didn't know the Empire dabbled in Necromancy. And... Who exactly from the Empire? or is this like... Every person in the Empire who has ever died formed into one single Wraith?

[Chilltouch]

I'm hoping these temporary mutations are sutff like:


Spitting out blue flames once in a while.
Using your third eye once in a while, to locate every enemy in the immediate area.
Ripping off faces with secondary jaws.
You can let out a terrible warp scream, defeaning all those in the immediate area and possibly stunning them momentarily.
Skin slowly takes on a treackle-like aspect, yet stick keeps its shape, reducing most damage taken by the user.

[Archon]

I dont like a lot of mutations, even though it is iconic. But what your getting at here might be a sign, looks like since they said temporary they might add some sort of buff on you or have you excel in some way or another.

[Chilltouch]

By temporary, I hope it isn't something pathetic like "DAEMONIC STRENGTH RAWR" but rather a permanant mutation that does absolutely nothing until it's activate. For example, having secondary jaws means nothing. Until you use these secondary jaws then your mouth bursts open, these jaws rush out, and bite your opponent's face off, which you proceed to consume with relish.

Wait? This game's a Teen?

Aw man.

[Timanous]

Maybe mutations could be like a weapon chaos could have like a tentacle or something.

[Warhost]

Wont the mutations be more like you start spewing plague or a bird head because most of the minatures just have god specific mutations like nurgles guys are decayed and nasty not covered in arms and tails

[ZealotMoo]

Seeing that mutations are temporary they could implement a gamble-chance sort of system.

Perhaps on one occasion you gain an additional arm, rendering a bonus.
But then there could also be a negative effect, such as your arm shriveling up, putting you at a disadvantage.

[Mortej]

What if when you get to a certain level say 10 then 20 then 30 etc etc when you get to upgrade stats you get to pick mutations they could be purely cosmetic, or they could work into the game (but i think mutations could be a very hard balancing problem to overcome). Even though in the Warhammer universe a full grown chaos warrior could kick the out of most empire soldiers 1 on 1 (watch the trailer to Mark of chaos where the empire soldiers get slaughtered...) if that happened in game I don't think too many ppl would be goin empire.

[Bicknell780]

Just think DAOC Mid Beserker on a larger scale maybe. Thats what I think when I hear about possible mutations.

[Mortej]

Anybody heard if there will be chaos spawns? I know in the warhammer world almost all chaos warriors become chaos spawns if they don't become daemon princes etc.

[spirit]

Anybody heard if there will be chaos spawns? I know in the warhammer world almost all chaos warriors become chaos spawns if they don't become daemon princes etc.

I very much doubt that PC's will be able to turn into spawn, because spawn are generally completely mindless beasts, torn apart by mass mutation. Maybe as NPC characters or mobs to kill though...could be very cool.

[BaronVonTito]

I think it would be cool if rather that getting some temporary mutations (buffs) you can make a permanent way of upping your dexterity, you have to sacrifice your strength or your constitution. You can pick what mutations you get I think that it would be cool to do domething similar, make a quest for an extra arm, spit fire ability, etc. but it would lower you Pdef or make you slower but you still inflict a lot of damage. So there would be an Upside and a downside. Also be able to remove your "mutation" by going out and talking to A NPC or a NPC gives you a quest that would allow you to remove a mutation if you decide you would rather want a different mutation. Also level your mutation like you might be able to level a skill so your extra arm hits harder, or scaly skin makes you take less damage and that takes skill points too. a lot of ideas there.

[zenarion]

I havent read ALL the thread, but I tried.
Mutations are not temporary in TT Warhammer, or even in the lore. When your patron god feels like, you grow tentacoos. When your god turns his back on you, you stop growing. Mutations don't just disappear!

I see them mostly as semi-WYSIWYG addons for your character. More strenght? You get those demon arms like the Chaos Warrior in the trailer. Or you become taller, wider, change in skin color. Mythic can do pretty much what they want here. Remember, the game allows you to look unique, depending on the level, gear, and career choice. Adding a moving tentacle that grows on your neck cannot be THAT hard! Mutations maybe are selected after selecting some talent (WoW reference) or completing a quest that rewards you with a soulbound (is there a special MMO-slang word for this?) item. Use the item -> you become a freak. Imagine killing some large beast, and finding an ancient parchment with some magical spells on it. Read it, and horns grow on your forehead.

[Y'vess]

I havent read ALL the thread, but I tried.
Mutations are not temporary in TT Warhammer, or even in the lore. When your patron god feels like, you grow tentacoos. When your god turns his back on you, you stop growing. Mutations don't just disappear!

No actually there is prescedence for mutations being hidden in the lore. You can't exactly be a chaos agent wandering about the empire sowing the seed of corruption with a bunch of eyes, mouths and tentacles flapping about, you'd be witchunted and burned in a matter of weeks. The chaos gods give their agents the ability to hide their taint using magical disguises that allow them to appear normal to all that look upon them but the most powerfull of enemies such as inquisitors, priests and mages. When it no longer suits their purpose they reveal their true nature kind of like having a cloaking ability I guess.

[zenarion]

What if you are some kind of favoured warrior from the northern wastes? No need to hide there!

[Y'vess]

Then don't hide it :) All I'm saying is the suggestion that you can toggle the visual aspect of mutations on or off at will is not as completely unrealistic as it might first appear.

For me personaly the fear I would have is that I might pick a mutation that looks really bad on my character and ruins their appearence in such a circumstance I would appreciate the option not to display it.

Much like some people chose not to display cloaks and helmets in other games. A helmet might give the player +12 stamina now if they dont display it nobody complains its not WYSIWYG so I don't really accept that argument if a tentacle gives +12 stamina instead and I don't like the way it looks on my character. In all my life pvping in games I've never avoided a fight because the other player seems to be better equipped then me, if they seem vastly greater level sure I have but I would like to think even the best gear won't unbalance the fight if I was in average gear too much.

If mutations only appeared during casting animations either for buffs or nukes or melee attacks etc then thats cool but changing the appearence of a character you have possibly played with many months already isn't cool if its permanent.

[Sluf]

I would like the mutations to be permanent, as I will be playing a Chaos character myself, and I do like the whole mutation idea.

I see the problem with it though, as argued by many posters in this thread, but perhaps there could be a solution between permanent and tempoary?

A system of variables, where you archieve something and is rewarded with mutations. Perhaps killstreak, recognition towards your faction, or something third.

And whenever you did something negatively towards this variable, your mutations was removed again. Dieing (incase of killstreak), decay (incase of recognition, etc.), and so on.

[Vash108]

If you play chaos you should know what its about. Chaos is ugly, chaos is mutations and chaos is deformities. If your not into that kind of stuff you probably should not play chaos. Thats what chaos is!

Mutations should be permanent and they should bless you with a otherworldy strength. If you are worried a mutation might make you ugly you prolly should try an elf. Plus If you are a Chaos player with no mutations then that goes to show how much the god Does not favor you and you should be not but a weak pawn or fodder for the hell cannons.

[V'raneth]

A couple of things that might address some of the concerns around here. I believe most of us expect that there will be options to respec your character, so it's not quite like you're deformed for life, just until you decide to change your character's build. And secondly, it's practically required that the player be given the option to see what the mutation choices he can make will cause him to look like. It would be truly silly without that ability.

And here's an idea Y'vess, how about you can cloak your character's deformities in towns where you just want to shop and chat, but the gloves come off, so to speak, on the battlefield. I think that might be a reasonable compromise.

[.Stalker.]

If the Mutation are like the equivalent to growing beards or growth it would be quite unfair to have an abilty to hide them, don't you think? Imagine someone without any mutations just takes sum low lvl armor and walks to the lvl 1 or sth like that PvP areas.
It would be quite cool if the mutations would ... like represent you way of skilling, for example you choose a bunch of skills in your tree, you have a choise of mutations that represent that way of skilling. All give the same benefits, but just look different for individualisation causes. Know what I mean

[Vash108]

I just don't see why you would want to hide them or even be temporary for that matter, they are badges of honor and glory. It makes you stand out and show just how powerful you are. Plus then only reason that they were hidden in the lore is so that those Chaos hiding amongst the humans could still do their masters work with out being persecuted. That will not happen in this game. This is war, on the battlefield, blood gore and guts and Death to all weaker. You are not going to be some diplomatic prissy chaos, that loves to chat in bar rooms and cyb0rz with the local empire players.

This is chaos after all Rivers full of custard and maggots raining from the sky. They come from a harsh realm and survive in an environment that would kill anyone else. It will be reflected in your appearance.

Especially if your appearance will be based on your lvl as well how Orcs get bigger and Beards get longer for Dwarves. That kind of stuff shouldn't be hidden anyways. I have said it before on many other forums but there are other races you can play that wont have mutations or the ugliness of Chaos and even other games where you can Barbie up your toon all you want. Not to sound like this is a female thing, but there are males who worry about it just as much and I happen to know a few.

[Y'vess]

...there are other races you can play that wont have mutations or the ugliness of Chaos and even other games where you can Barbie up your toon all you want.


Ok I'm seeing this from several people so I'll make this clear, there are other games for you too!

Not all mutations are scarring or permanently visible chaos has no rules thats why its called chaos. If chaos mutations can be hidden I'm happy if I want to hide them, if you want to show them regardless then you have that option without dictating to me how my character should look. It's a win win situation and nobody should be trying to enforce their way as the only one, this is a discussion not a decision.

Something else to consider is Mythic, if they do include figure altering mutations are not going to devote a whole library of them to launch so actually allowing people to chose which mutations they display also allows players to have a little variety instead of seeing 300 level 40 chaos warriors with spikey skin, a third arm comming out of their head and claws for hands.

[V'raneth]

Not all mutations are scarring or permanently visible chaos has no rules thats why its called chaos. If chaos mutations can be hidden I'm happy if I want to hide them, if you want to show them regardless then you have that option without dictating to me how my character should look. It's a win win situation and nobody should be trying to enforce their way as the only one, this is a discussion not a decision. Chaos does have rules unfortunately, because, though they are thematically chaotic, they are not pure Chaos. That's simply because pure Chaos is entirely unfathomable and wouldn't appeal to anyone. Really, Chaos is about the different flavors of ruin that can befall civilization. Irrationality being one of the uniting strands amongst all the Chaos Gods. But that's a little academic.

You do need to understand though, that choosing one way to do a game and sticking with it is important. The devs "enforce their way as the only one" the same way Games Workshop does with Warhammer. It simply can't be everything for everyone and decisions need to be made. Clearly we're not the ones making the decisions but what we can do is express our opinions in the hope that one of the people who do make the decisions might be swayed. There's also the simple pleasure of nerdly debate. ;)

I believe that Chaos, as it's described by Games Workshop, should have permanent mutations reflecting the powers that the individual has been granted by their patron gods, and since none of our characters will be performing any kind of espionage or subterfuge type activities, a concealment of our corruption isn't needed. As others have stated, these mutations are badges of honor and are worn proudly by the people of Chaos. You see, the people of Chaos exist separate from what the gamer playing them may want, and so your desire to be relatively unscathed really doesn't have any bearing on what the people of Chaos should (in this imaginary world) be allowed to do.

That having been said, compromises befitting the medium are necessary. I understand how visually overpowering some mutations can be, and I know that in some situations, like strolling around town doing your shopping in a nimbus of crackling energy with four purple arms, might just be a little too strange. Which is why I proposed being able to mask your mutations while in a town setting but nowhere else. Is that not enough?

Something else to consider is Mythic, if they do include figure altering mutations are not going to devote a whole library of them to launch so actually allowing people to chose which mutations they display also allows players to have a little variety instead of seeing 300 level 40 chaos warriors with spikey skin, a third arm comming out of their head and claws for hands. That's only a problem if there's only one good way to spec yourself and if they only include one visual option for each skill. They have to make thousands of items already, what's it matter if they have to make 15 or 20 mutations in order to make Chaos look good? Also, I was only expecting a Chaos character to have one or two mutations, not three or four. These are champions, not borderline spawn.

[DeathsHorizon]

Im not sure I like the idea of permanant mutations. I seriously do not want a giant birdhead. No point in creating a character face if its repalaced with a birds head. Its kinda why I play nurgle on TT, nurgle tends to mutate them less then the other gods... besides rotting and stuff.

Plus not all mutations are that obvious, I mean just in general most warriors grow in size over time.

Also if you want mutations permanant, then they must have weaknessess. You got a tentacle arm your strength increases, but you can no longer hold weapons with that hand.

Cant have you cake and slaughter everyone at the party too.

Chaos Reigns :chaos:

[Vash108]

But what’s the point of being Chaos with out showing off your power and the gifts given to you? Chaos takes pride in how they look; it shows their god actively "blesses" them. I don’t want to be bogged down and borderline spawn, but Mutations are a LARGE part of being chaos, besides the whole worshiping the gods and all.

I just hate it when people come into a game and try to change the way things are around. "I want to be chaos but chaos isn't pretty, so I want to change it." Ex: you wind up with Blood Elves.

What is wrong with permanent Mutations? Isn’t that the goal to gain as much power as your mortal body can contain before it snaps, or you are granted Daemon-hood. Take a look of how sexy you will look with all those mutations:
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/hordesofchaos/extras/generator/images/demonettes.jpg
http://jp.games-workshop.com/Warhammer/armies/hordesofchaos/who-are/images/art-daemonettes.jpg
(I know they are daemons but its close).

Granted you should have a say in what form your mutations take but just don’t expect fluffy and cute. I just don’t want to see Chaos made into something they are not and we won’t really find out what it will be until release.

[.Stalker.]

I don't think that you will grow a tentacle out of you arm or change it into one... defniitly not, but there will be propably mutations like spikes on your armor and horns or stuff like that.
I don't want my head turned into a bird, neither, that would be too .... blatant. Yeah, ok it's chaos, but wheres the point in looking like some stuff of turkey? THats not cool!
Ok, Tzeench likes birds, but my head should stay my head, maybe some feathers on my back, but my head...

[Vash108]

Just think with a bird head you will get a special "Peck" ability where you can peck at yoru oppenents eyes and blind them while you fight!:-P

[.Stalker.]

Don't you think it's an advantage for them then, not to see your ugliness? ^^

Yeah, ok, but I prefere sth like lizards or skorpions. I don't think your head is gonna change remarkable, exept for maybe horns or - i can't understand, but if you like - even beaks ^^
No big change....

But I'm looking forward to new cognitions ;)

[Aerion]

Chaos Chosen 1: "She turned me into a newt!!"

Chaos Chosen 2: "A NEWT?"

Chaos Chosen 1: "..."

Chaos Chosen 2: "?"

Chaos Chosen 1: "I got better..."

[Ethandril]

Making Mutations as a temporary buff would work fine for me, but if they are permanent
on my char, I want to choose which I use!

I think Paul said it about orcs: 10 Black Orcs --> All look different

And with Chaos and the Mutations should it be the same, someone likes a 3rd eye,
anotherone wants birdlike claws, at the end, we (the chaos players) shouldn't look
like out of a clone-factory.

[DEVLiN]

I've only skimmed through the thread - but wouldn't "Tactics" be the more or less obvious place to put them?

[V'raneth]

I've only skimmed through the thread - but wouldn't "Tactics" be the more or less obvious place to put them? That's an interesting suggestion because it brings up an issue I had sort of touched on without really noticing - degrees of permanence. I mentioned respeccing as a way to alleviate full permanence but I hadn't thought about Tactics. I guess I can't say whether I'd like it or not since I don't know how frequently Tactics can be swapped. If all you have to do is leave combat I'd say no, but if you had to, say, leave the battlefield, maybe. One thing which I'd really rather not see, which could result from having mutations be Tactic based, is where you kill some chaos guy, he respawns, and comes back in two minutes to take another whack at you with a diferent set of mutations. I just feel like something is lost in Chaos when mutations cease to be a part of the character's identity.

Of course, there's always the option of creating a mixture of the different systems suggested. Having the strongest, or end of a specialization line mutations be big and permanent. Then having medium power mutations like an increase in size (str, toughness, etc.) or big freaky bird eyes (reflex increase, etc.) be Tactic based and so semi permanent. And in the bottom tier there would be the small short term mutations which would be cast and expire just like a buff. These could include a thrashing tentacle that eventually rots and falls off or an eruption of protective spikes that eventually drop away. I think this mixed approach might be the most practical.

[.Stalker.]

Of course, there's always the option of creating a mixture of the different systems suggested. Having the strongest, or end of a specialization line mutations be big and permanent.

But if respeccing your char includes resetting all your skills, and mutations are skill-bound, you can't avoid choosing another "end-of-the-line-mutation" when you try out other tactics...

So it's the same problem that you mentioned before...

...where you kill some chaos guy, he respawns, and comes back in two minutes to take another whack at you with a diferent set of mutations.

You just choose other some other skills and your mutations disappear to allow you the new selection of skills and mutations.

I think the best thing is not to make the mutations skillbound but maybe lvl bound, e.g. each 5 lvl you get another mutation or stuff like that and they don't change in your respeccing progress.
Otherwise you had no real character customisation but sth like "which dress am i gonna wear today". You have to choose mutations you like that fit to your character you created and you kinda identify with. With that lvl system you will have an individual char with some recognizable features that your enemies will learn to fear and not some "oh, another xxx-skilled warrior, let's see how I can kill'em" but ", that guy again"



Sry 4 my spelling, I'm from Germany ;)

[V'raneth]

Usually respeccing involves traveling somewhere, spending some money or completing some task, and then coming up with a whole new way to play your character. It's not something most people would be willing to do after every fight and you certainly wouldn't be able to do it every two mins. They might even have timers on how often you can respec. Weekly perhaps.

[.Stalker.]

But what I really mean is this:


I think the best thing is not to make the mutations skillbound but maybe lvl bound, e.g. each 5 lvl you get another mutation or stuff like that and they don't change in your respeccing progress.
Otherwise you had no real character customisation but sth like "which dress am i gonna wear today". You have to choose mutations you like that fit to your character you created and you kinda identify with. With that lvl system you will have an individual char with some recognizable features that your enemies will learn to fear and not some "oh, another xxx-skilled warrior, let's see how I can kill'em" but ", that guy again"

[DEVLiN]

That's an interesting suggestion because it brings up an issue I had sort of touched on without really noticing - degrees of permanence.
That was exactly what I was pondering when suggesting tactics.

Obviously, some tactics will be rather useful most of the time (say, +10% crit chance for melee - resulting in an extra arm or whatnot) and would thus be visible most of the time. Tzeentch is the changer of ways after all, and tactics was the only semi-permanent (as in, permanent if you want it, but still changable) place I could think of.

If all you have to do is leave combat I'd say no, but if you had to, say, leave the battlefield, maybe.
I'd be fine if it was "X minutes out of combat", but would prefer if it also was coupled with a visual morph. :twisted: (not really plausible in an RvR-mmo, but still! A visual effect wouldn't be amiss)

[Y'vess]

I seem to recall a comment made somewhere by a mythic person they where planning to allow you to change tactics every 30minutes no mention of if you have to remain out of combat during that period though.

[Sluf]

Chaos Chosen 1: "She turned me into a newt!!"

Chaos Chosen 2: "A NEWT?"

Chaos Chosen 1: "..."

Chaos Chosen 2: "?"

Chaos Chosen 1: "I got better..."

Hehe, couldn't agree more.