Run Squiggy!!

[Kaikai]

i wonder how much time the squig hearder will spend getting serious agro from other players in pvp.
much like the shaman nuker/healer role.
i see goblins as a whole spending all their waking hours running the hell away from melee charicters.

not so happy about this personal view.
i'm sure im not the only one.
how do you think Mythic will try to make it so it isnt simply a matter of rushing the 'hunter' like in WoW.

one step sofar is survival of squigs after the death of the hearder, which i think is fantastic, but not quite enougth that i forsee someone viewing the squig as more of a threat than the hearder.
any theories?

[notit]

You're forgetting about CD. In a proper group, the tanks and dps dudes should be in the way.

[saltbush]

You're forgetting about CD. In a proper group, the tanks and dps dudes should be in the way.

that or your heard of squigs, what kind of sane goblin fights in the front line :rolleyes:

[obsolete]

that or your heard of squigs, what kind of sane goblin fights in the front line :rolleyes:

One with a very short life span? ;)

[Kaikai]

so what does a goblin player do when the front line breaks? in a small group pvp fight, at most 6 players, simply going around the side of the 'tank' isnt hard.
infact allmost all pvp i see involves tanks avoiding eachother as they go for the 'squishies'

do you think a gobbo squig hearder can take a good few blows while he and his squigs tear into the enemy? or will you be forced to run away and hope that your squigs can attack and run at the same time?

[notit]

so what does a goblin player do when the front line breaks? in a small group pvp fight, at most 6 players, simply going around the side of the 'tank' isnt hard.
infact allmost all pvp i see involves tanks avoiding eachother as they go for the 'squishies'

do you think a gobbo squig hearder can take a good few blows while he and his squigs tear into the enemy? or will you be forced to run away and hope that your squigs can attack and run at the same time?

Dude, you're giving into a straw man argument.

If the front line falls - you loose. Congrats. You didn't win the battle. It happens.
If they go around your melee dps line - then you have a bad dps line. Sucks to be you.


Sorry, they aren't going to be tanks or one man armies.

[Ken]

how do you think Mythic will try to make it so it isnt simply a matter of rushing the 'hunter' like in WoW.

Well. Survival of squigs is...yea one thing like you said. It is fantastic. Kind of cool, too.

Think about how WoW has different pets with different abilities. Like not just "oh this one can learn claw but not dash! and this one can learn bite and claw!" Not like that...

The scorpions get poisons that stack. The gorillas get a "aggro thunderstomp". The cats get prowl.

All the classes in warhammer that I've seen have had some kind of intensity to them, except engineers. But you don't know what engineer bombs do exactly. Debuffs, heals, CC, who knows.

anyway back to the intensity. I think squigs will have certain abilities that make them very dangerous. The herder:squig ratio will probably be more balanced than the Hunter:]pet ratio in WoW. Like let's just say Hunter:]Pet is 75:25 (3:1 but using %). Herder:Squig MAY be 60:40. or 55:45. I don't know. But the way they make squigs sound, they have just as much to be worried about that the Herder does. Logically, though, the herder will be stronger than the squig. Because if the herder were as easy to kill as the squig, that'd SUCK. The herder would die all the time. That's a bit of a pain in the .

I guess hp-wise or not. The squig will have more to worry about than any hunter's pets in WoW.


But then again. We don't know the numbers involved in them, so we can't really say anything at all, can we? ;) All of these classes have equal chance to be really gimped as they do overpowered because we DON'T KNOW THE NUMBERS. hp numbers, endurance numbers, skill costs, normal melee and ranged damage, spell damage.

Speculating is fun, but let's save "what sucks and what doesn't" for when we all get into beta and start kickin' some . Or better, on release, since beta will be about fixing "the numbers" and glitches, etc, whatever.

[Kaikai]

Dude, you're giving into a straw man argument.

If the front line falls - you loose. Congrats. You didn't win the battle. It happens.
If they go around your melee dps line - then you have a bad dps line. Sucks to be you.


Sorry, they aren't going to be tanks or one man armies.

one man armies? when the heck did i say that? i don't think you should put words into my mouth.

the front line never succeads, ive played enougth range and healer classes in mmorpgs to tell you that, thus far, in MMORPGS, theres not really ever a 'frontline' its all skirmish skirmish skirmish.

with collision detection it might be differnt in this game, but how does one, 'hold the front line' ?
will you have to rely upon the tank 'hamstringing' the enemy? or can you or your squig do it?
one WoW hunter tactic was traps, it helped to stop people rushing.

with no 'rush prevention' a ranged class becomes utterly useless, they get rushed, they die, GG!
just incase you get the wrong idea from that, i dont expcet rush prevention tactics to be fool proof, they should help, not do the job for you.
all i was speculating was methods in which the squig hearder may be able to stop a tank rushing him and turning him into goblin frappe, or at least stop the initial rush.

for instance, one rather cool method in my opinion is a squig grapple.
one of your squigs bites onto the targets limb and slows him/her down.
your down one squig because its attached to the target (and dies when the duration of the debuff wears off, since the target probaly killed it getting it off) but you trade that loss of firepower or dps for a chance to prolong the conflict, escape or just get a few extra arrows into them.

[Ratslaugh]

It would be interesting if they put in the following: if the herder dies - then the squigs go wild, becoming liable to attack anyone in aggro range if they're not engaged already.

[erloas]

If the squigs die easier but cause more damage then the herder does, and continue to fight after the herder dies then the obvious thing for an opponent to do is to take out the squigs first.
Its also not like the herder is not armored at all, they are just in light armor. Given in other games light armored characters could be killed in a matter of seconds, that is very likely not going to be the case in WAR.


As for the "front line" never succeding, well there has yet to be a game (that I've played at least) where the idea of a front-line was even considered/coded in PvP. So the fact that is has never worked so far is a pointless arguement since it has never actually been tried so far.

[Bloodstorm]

The answer is simple, Kaikai, make sure your frontline exceeds by getting your squig into backfield and killing the enemy ranged dps. Squigs can bypass collision detection with their enormous leaps, or so it says in the newsletter. And if your side is still losing, then you're obviously outnumbered, and you'd probably do something like get into that Squig battle Armor and og out in a blaze of glory!

Though, I'm not sure if Dwarf Engineers as ranged dps will be very vulnerable. . .

[notit]

Sorry for putting words in your mouth - but it feels as though you want them to be one man armies.

There are rush preventions. It's called your tanks and melee dps (squigs are included to that). Have a heard of squigs in front of your hearder - like the people above have mentioned.

[Kaikai]

It would be interesting if they put in the following: if the herder dies - then the squigs go wild, becoming liable to attack anyone in aggro range if they're not engaged already.

i think that would make the squig hearder an even bigger target :/
pet classes are notorious for being a 'high priority' target in most other mmos, being right after the healer usually.
if your provided the oppertunity to deal some extra damage to an enemy player, or the enemy group, most smart players will go for it.
after all they lose nothing if they kill a hearder, since they would be attacked by squigs anyway, but your allies would also get attacked.


If the squigs die easier but cause more damage then the herder does, and continue to fight after the herder dies then the obvious thing for an opponent to do is to take out the squigs first.
Its also not like the herder is not armored at all, they are just in light armor. Given in other games light armored characters could be killed in a matter of seconds, that is very likely not going to be the case in WAR.


As for the "front line" never succeding, well there has yet to be a game (that I've played at least) where the idea of a front-line was even considered/coded in PvP. So the fact that is has never worked so far is a pointless arguement since it has never actually been tried so far.

i'm not so sure on if the goblin or the squig would be the prime target out of the two.
it all depends on the life span and summon rate of squigs, if you can resummon your squigs multiple times in one battle, then the goblin is the big target.
if you have a long cooldown/recharge for the skill, or acutaly prevented from using it during combat situations, hopefully that will make more aware players focus upon your squigs first.
which will be a first in mmos ive seen.

of course there will allways be some players who go for the herder first, because in PvP, its the hearder who would yeild exp and loot, not the squigs.

kill the herder fast and run away after you've looted the body.

as for the front line comment, i have to agree, thats why i said allmost all of the fighting i have done in mmorpgs (or all of it), was skirmish based rather than linebased.

The answer is simple, Kaikai, make sure your frontline exceeds by getting your squig into backfield and killing the enemy ranged dps. Squigs can bypass collision detection with their enormous leaps, or so it says in the newsletter. And if your side is still losing, then you're obviously outnumbered, and you'd probably do something like get into that Squig battle Armor and og out in a blaze of glory!

so basicly kill them before they kill you?
easier said than done my friend, every class is going to need some precautions i think, especially if the hearders role is 'hopping' the lines and attacking the enemy 'squishies'
i would expect the squishes on both sides (the enemy and yourself) to have a couple of methods to at least slow down a rusher so their llies can rally and help out.
doesnt make sence that the herder would leave himself entirly defenceless in the event of (in the common case) an irate hammer/ironbreaker.

Sorry for putting words in your mouth - but it feels as though you want them to be one man armies.

There are rush preventions. It's called your tanks and melee dps (squigs are included to that). Have a heard of squigs in front of your hearder - like the people above have mentioned.
no prob mate :)
im not interested in an 'all powerfull' class, i am interested in a class that can win, depending upon how smart you play it.
with such an obvious attack as the tank going 'hey diddle diddle, lets go bash up the middle' and comes a rushing for you, i'm quite curious upon peoples speculations on what mythic plans to give the herder, or others, to prevent such tactics.

long live the squishies!

[Redgoth]

The Black Orc’s fighting style might best be described as brawling. He attacks with all the tools available – fists, feet, elbows, shoulders, and assorted other spiky bits, including weapons. His various attacks are designed to jar, disorient, or otherwise disable his enemy.

I don't think its a coincidence that the Greenskin tank specializes in letting his other horde members which are weak Gobos, manoeuver to do their intended job.
With a decent tank defending you, you won't have to run away ;)
And if you're that worried about the class, just don't play it. Going with lore, goblins don't want to be on the front line doin' melee.

[Kaikai]

I don't think its a coincidence that the Greenskin tank specializes in letting his other horde members which are weak Gobos, manoeuver to do their intended job.
With a decent tank defending you, you won't have to run away ;)
And if you're that worried about the class, just don't play it. Going with lore, goblins don't want to be on the front line doin' melee.

very true! god, i forgot that the blackorc will be good for disabling other charicters.

that does make me wonder if the black orc will become a class that every party must have however..

[Bragga]

I think you will see plenty of black orcs around, so having one or two in a group shouldn't be a problem. I would think that of the four classes, squig herder would be the least favorite class to play, though that is just internalized conjecture. I intend to play all 4, but once I heard that they were going to have a squig herder, well it was too much to resist thinking it would be my main.

If indeed you can move and shoot, then having people chase you is not too big a deal as long as your squigs are chewing on their ankles. Here is where a bow makes a lot more sense than a spear. If they stop to whack the squigs, you pepper them with arrows. If they chase, keep your distance and pepper them with arrows. To a goblin that is just plain cunnin' an uzzin' yer noggin'. Just make sure you have plenty of arrerz.

[Redgoth]

that does make me wonder if the black orc will become a class that every party must have however..

That could be a potential issue, but as mentioned above, I am also confident there will be plenty of Black Orcs around. If anything, players with Gobos with most likely act like "real" Gobos and find a big bad mean Orc to cova' der butts...That's what I'd do :p Combine that with mastering the art of kiting, and Herders have an enormous potentiel for destruction.

We'll have to see what the 4th career is for greenskins, but I suspect they will also be about keeping your opponent close to you, through stuns and disorients and sheer brutality. After all, Orcs fight dirty :D

[Bloodstorm]

so basicly kill them before they kill you?
easier said than done my friend, every class is going to need some precautions i think, especially if the hearders role is 'hopping' the lines and attacking the enemy 'squishies'
i would expect the squishes on both sides (the enemy and yourself) to have a couple of methods to at least slow down a rusher so their llies can rally and help out.
doesnt make sence that the herder would leave himself entirly defenceless in the event of (in the common case) an irate hammer/ironbreaker.


Well. . . aye, kill them before they kill you. Only with a pet. That's what Squig Herders will probably be doing.

And of course they'll have some methods to slow down rushers, otherwise Squig Herders would be invincible in formations and such. I doubt their allies would benefit much from 'rallying and helping out,', because surrounding the Squig would mean breaking the line and letting [i]everyone else[i] reach backfield. And besides, the Squig Herder is a ranged class, remember? Anyone who attacks his squig will not only get bitten in the face, but pelted with arrows.
But then again, you have proven this point: If everyone gangs on the Squig Herder, he'll likely die or have to run. If a Squig gets into backfield, they'll attack the Squig, not you, and once that Squig is dead, you can either summon another one, or, as you said, be completely defenseless. I don't see how that's a problem, because you don't have to send your squig into backfield if you aren't ready to summon another one, you could simply pang arrows at the enemy frontlines with your squig in the rear. It doesn't matter, because either way, the Squig Herder is safely protected by the frontline, and if that frontline were to falter, then it's just a matter of group pvp, not a bad squig herder. :mad:

[Julius]

If squigs don't disappear when the herder dies, I would think that the herder is much less of a target. Well... not more than any other ranged class. And you'll always get that with ranged classes.

[Kaikai]

i hope we get exp for kills if our squigs kill a target after they have killed us.

[Squibbo]

Being a major DPS class, I'm sure they'll be getting their fair share of hate from other players in the PvP environment. :) However, it's far too early to really say how the class will work, as the description is still too vague, imo. But yeah, hopefully they won't be too fragile, and if they are super fragile, hopefully they will have handy tools to help keep them out of harm's way.

[Aern]

In WoW, in group pvp as well as solo pvp its actually rarely a "charge the hunter" situation. Hunters have more than enough durability at close range and a decent amount of melee dmg to deal with warriors and rogues. Slowing, rooting, and disorienting abilities that can all be used at close range all give a hunter quite a bit of survivability.

I have a feeling you won't see that same type of durability HP wise as a hunter, but some tricks for staying alive and out of immediate danger seem to be right up a gobbo's alley. Don't be surprised if either the herder's melee attacks are aimed at getting out of melee range or their pets have abilities that can help keep enemies off the herder.

[Squibbo]

I have a feeling you won't see that same type of durability HP wise as a hunter, but some tricks for staying alive and out of immediate danger seem to be right up a gobbo's alley. Don't be surprised if either the herder's melee attacks are aimed at getting out of melee range or their pets have abilities that can help keep enemies off the herder.

Yeah, along the lines of the squigs keeping enemies off the herder, I liked someone else's idea of having a squig latch onto your enemy's leg, or whatever, slowing their movement down, but effectively taking that squig out of combat for a time. You would have to weigh the benefits of slowing your opponent vs. removing one of your squigs from combat. Would be really nice to see :p

[Fingoniel]

and don't forget - there's always squig power armour :D