The Choppa

[Hyrus]

Well, i'm gonna just say it. I'm disappointed.

The Hammerer is discribed as a class that builds momentum. That, the more the hammerer fights, the more powerful he becomes. Copy and paste it over in greenskin tongue, and you get the Choppa. Not only does the "Choppa" sound as weapon restricting as the "Hammerer", but the only discriptive difference between the classes I found was that the Choppa's "momentum" is tied in with his morale, which initially strikes me as a detriment over a strength.

I was expecting something to differentiate the two. Sure, I knew they'd be similar roles no doubt, but I was waiting for something unique. My personal speculation was some ranged finesse. Maybe there was going to be some emphasis on "weakening" their targets or use of positionals to maximize their rage. All in all, i'm left with several simularities from the vagueness of the discription with a mere single difference that sounds rather constraining over liberating, imo.

Oh, and just because. "Go! Go! Get to da choppa!!"

[Y'vess]

I like the new name, much more orcy. As to if its just like a hammerer only its an orc well I dunno about that, at the end of the day they are both high dps melee classes effectively taking the place where rogues would be in other games at least for the two races we know about so far.

No matter what fancy wording you put on it both their jobs are to get up close and hack away at the enemy as fast and as hard as possible. They might play similar they might not its really too early to tell at this stage and I think more down to the readers imagination just how "good" or "unique" a class description really is.

At this stage in development I'd give Mythic a little more credit than to agree Hammerer=Choppa no doubt they will have similar roles and some abilities will have to be similar given those roles but its the details that make race classes unique not the whole package in my opinion. Just like a tank is a tank is a tank a melee dps will have to share some similarities with other melee dps or forever be the butt of "imba" complaints.

[Robjamysan]

I agree, they do seem very similar. However, as more information is released, I have no doubt that, in the final product, the classes will be very different from each other. Although, I predict that they will fulfill very similar roles; they'll just have different ways of doing it.

[Kaikai]

i woulda preferred it to be a class for goblins as well as orcs, but its not too bad.
a class that focuses on weilding two weapons, very cool.

[Klitch]

i know this is a horse beaten to a pulp, and pretty much every hates comparisons to WoW but it needs to be made.

I played a Warrior in WoW, i played him up to end-game hardcore raiding. I was sitting pretty in BWL when that came out. I had the gear for any spec i wanted. I loved to get in there and PvP.

The main lesson i learned in WoW from PvP was quite simply, burst damage, burst damage, burst damage. Dual weilding just wasn't as effective as the hulking two hander that could lay down some serious damage in a short time frame. Speed is EVERYTHING.

With the Choppa focused on DW i am seriously worried about just how effective he can be. This is not to say that DW can not be effective in PvP, but time is a factor. The Choppa is going to NEED skills to keep his prey nice and close, if he can't he will lose out on some serious damage potenial.

Suggestions? Have Rage give SLIGHT run speed buffs
Have inherent TINY slow debuff in every swing that hits
Give a seriously effective slow debuff skill


Taking a step back, i feel the need to also state that yelling and screaming "DOOOOM!!" at this point in the game is just silly. What we should all really do is just relax and see what Mythic does. They have a LOT of time to tweak stuff. Shelling out two new classes every month is TOUGH, i would be surprised if NOTHING changed to the classes. Just look at all the design and concept changes to the Choppa before his "offical" release.

[Kaikai]

Klitch, notice that the descriptions are still very vauge, so yeah they will be changing stuff alot i think heh

[Bhazrak]

No sense in getting worked up about it this early on. Tweaking will happen with all the classes, and things will change.

I still can see the Choppa being burst damage. Remember it said that you can either let your morale/rage/some-other-specific-thing rise, and get more berserk, OR, you can use that to deal special super attacks tha you couldn't normally do. If they don't have a form of slow/root/whatever, or atleast a wide variety, that may be where the Black orc comes in. He can lock down an opponent, you can waste him.

The way I see it, the Choppa in its current description will be able to build up morale at a much faster rate than others, gaining more damage/speed/etc as it builds up, thereby gaining even more morale, and you'll basically be balancing the fury you're building with the crazy attacks you can let loose once you reach certain points.

Oh, and it does sounds pretty akin to the Hammerer, just with two weapons. I'd say, right now, the only thing that really seperates them, would be the different moves/tactics they'd use while fighting. One might get more snares than the other, or such. Not really going to think much about it, that's their job. Don't need to strain on it a year+ from release. :P

Ahhh, regardles though, it's still all speculation. I'll just go back to sitting back and waiting.

[Hyrus]

Note the Black Orc and the Ironbreaker. They're essentially the same class, but they go in two different directions. The Black Orc is more offensive oriented with stuns and combo attacks. The Ironbreaker is more defensive, needing someone, himself or a friend, to take some damage before he goes nuts on someone. They're both tanks, but they are both unique in design.

===

The main lesson i learned in WoW from PvP was quite simply, burst damage, burst damage, burst damage. Dual weilding just wasn't as effective as the hulking two hander that could lay down some serious damage in a short time frame. Speed is EVERYTHING.

The dynamics of WoW combat is the issue, ultimately. Instant strike attacks and abilities that often did full or even more damage than normal attacks made heavy, slow weapons preferable. It isn't a universal staple in the gaming world, it was just how WoW was designed. Imagine if Mortal Strike did half the damage of your melee weapon, plus (what was it) 135. Suddenly, faster weapons, with the increase to rage generation, could spam off heroic strikes and mortal strikes with blazing efficiency... even though Arms isn't a great DW tree. But again, right there, is just more reason as to why WoW was designed that way.

Back when there were no instant strikes, and even fewer melee combat abilities in MMO's, dual wield was the way to go because you'd critical far more often.

Another thing to consider is WoW has a very strange design in terms of classes and abilities. Rogues can sprint (doesn't even cost energy), but no one else can. Warriors can charge, but no one else can. In DAOC, everyone could sprint no matter their class, which made a great heaping sense compared to WoW. A lot of warrior abilities weren't designed for pvp, including sunder armor, revenge, demoralizing blow, challenging shout, etc. Charge, Mortal Strike, Hamstring, repeat. It wasn't very dynamic, which sucked the big one imo.

But i'm getting way off track. My point is, Warhammer might feel more like Daoc in terms of shared class dynamics (sprinting, etc). So don't use WoW as a point of comparison when they did things as strangely as they did without the thought of PvP in mind. Which is why, your suggestions are ill-founded on the basis that Warhammer is and will be a functional copy of WoW with black orcs charging and choppas cheap shotting. Hopefully, we'll see neither and the restraints of movement and ability to sprint will balance out most effects, making the need for a hamstring equivalent attack all the less nessisary in pvp.

I still can see the Choppa being burst damage. Remember it said that you can either let your morale/rage/some-other-specific-thing rise, and get more berserk, OR, you can use that to deal special super attacks tha you couldn't normally do. If they don't have a form of slow/root/whatever, or atleast a wide variety, that may be where the Black orc comes in. He can lock down an opponent, you can waste him.

Again, you're assuming the movement/combat dynamics of WoW.

Burst damage? He sounds exactly like the hammerer except with different words. The hammerer gets stronger the longer he fights. The choppa gets stronger the longer he fights. Both of them lose their strength if they waste it on a powerful move. The only difference is that it sounds like the choppa is more constrained because he can't use both morale abilities and his class abilities at the same time.

Oh, and it does sounds pretty akin to the Hammerer, just with two weapons. I'd say, right now, the only thing that really seperates them, would be the different moves/tactics they'd use while fighting. One might get more snares than the other, or such. Not really going to think much about it, that's their job. Don't need to strain on it a year+ from release. :P

That's another thing. I would absolutely abhor an MMO where characters are constrained so certain weapons or weapon setups. People prefer certain weapons, which really shouldn't be a difference for the class. Maybe I like frost spells over fire, or maybe I like axes over swords. If I have to dual wield, I could understand, but if I have to dual wield and only use swords while doing it (no hand-to-hand weapons, or axes, or hammers, etc) it feels like that's just less customization on the part of the player for nothing more then establishing a certain feel for the class, which should be already done through class abilities and armors. And that, sucks.

===

I'm sure the reason they're as vague as they are so they have more flexibility as they tweak and change the class. But it would really require minimal effort on their part to establish a few unique traits to ofset the Choppa and Hammerer between eachother, as they've done with the Black Orc and Ironbreaker. I'm not going on a frenzied rampage here over vague information, but I was expecting simular differences between comparable classes, as they've done before.

[Ajax]

i know its not going to happen at release but maybe in an expantion we could see this class in goblin form (Goblin Fanatic)

granted they might have to take damage in order to do their major attacks. I think i would be cool.

[Vidrak]

I played Orcs and Goblins in the table top game. So I plan on playing an Orc class most likely, deciding between the Squig Herder and Choppa right now. I really like the melee focus of this new class, but I have to agree with a lot of others on one of the key dynamics to this class.

Morale = damage. All classes in WAR get morale, all classes get uber abilities to use with their morale. Why does the Choppa have to store this morale up and basically not use it? It just doesn't make sense to me. The Choppa's damage is going to be very dependent on his morale pool. I thought morale was supposed to be something EVERYONE used, not a class definining ability that relates to your effectiveness.

I don't really like this idea, and I would hope for a "momentum" take to things like the hammerer, like a rage bar or something. And with all the talk of Wow warriors and DW, yea, that sucked. I played a DW warrior and it was all about spike damage, I was basically useless in PVP. I think all melee classes need to have a VERY good way to keep people near them and not running through them, backing up and moving forward with weapons swings, etc. This is a fight, not a freaking square dance (and dancing is already out ;) ). Anyways, I hope the Choppa class comes together well and can't wait to see it in action.

And a Night Goblin Fanatic class I thought would be totally cool. But taking damage to deal more? Goblins can't take any punishment, let a lone a goblin wiggin' out on shrooms bouncing around the battlefield in a drunken whirlwind. A fanatic might be a cool "siege" weapon that you could be in scenarios, but I think having it as a class would be kind of odd.

[Balthemor]

To be totally honest with you all dwarf or no dwarf the hammerer looks like he could beat the choppa easily in a fight. I prefer beserker as a name it's alot less restricting because alot of you crude orcs use cruder axes!

[Klitch]

Edited

sorry i was being mean....

[Hyrus]

Even the smallest Orc packs a great deal of bone, muscle, and bloody-mindedness into a body as tall as a man and substantially broader.

When a Choppa reaches the level cap, you're going to be looking "up" at him. While I don't know if player Orcs would be as massive as human characters, i'd expect them to surpase dwarfs in size, definately.

[Smachaz]

I dont know about them being the same, Hammerers only seem to have a 2h hammer while Choppas vary from 2 one-handers to a 1 2-hander and such.

[Y'vess]

Hammerers have already been confirmed as being able to wield more then just hammers I would expect Choppas can also wield some other weapons but I have to say Orcs like choppas a lot, if you don't like choppas youre just not orcy enough! ;)

[Hyrus]

Would the correct terminalogy be Choppa, Hacka and Basha? I'm a Hacka, if they do the animation/axe right.

Bah, what am I thinking... derailing my own rant :mrgreen:

[ConverseSC]

Hammerers have already been confirmed as being able to wield more then just hammers I would expect Choppas can also wield some other weapons but I have to say Orcs like choppas a lot, if you don't like choppas youre just not orcy enough! ;)

My God, is this true?!?

I need reaffirmation! Someone, get me links! Links damnit!

[Trolls]

I can't see that being true.. Hammerers use hammers, the clue is in the name. :D

[Hyrus]

I can certainly hammer somebody with a barrage of bullets, can't I?

I loathe weapon restrictions. Sometimes it is nessisary with classes, but overall if I want to use an axe over a sword, I don't see why the heck not. If there's an empire class called "Sworder" and a dark elf class called "elf stabber" it's going to become a negative trend, me thinks.

[3eeve]

Well, every army's got their theme weapons. Most orcs wield choppas. Most dwarves, axes and hammers. Bretonnians, swords and lances. Etc. It lends some nice unity to the look and feel of an army, but that's not going to work for me in an MMO.

WoW was restricting enough in terms of character customization. I'm expecting WAR to have a little more aesthetics in terms of armor dyes, guild cloaks, etc. But if every max-level Choppa is running around with the same pair of choppas, and every max level Hammerer is running around with the same 2h hammer, I'll be disappointed. Unless I'm really impressed by character growth, armor customization, etc. Which I definitely could be.

Call me stupid, but I'd be perfectly happy if Hammerers could weild Axes, even if it totally ruins the naming convention. I'm happy to compromise a little logic if it gets me the character I want. :D

[ScroatzZ]

Alright, i understand that it kindda messes up the name thing, but just a little bit. They're called Hammerers not, " that only knows how to hold a hammer" I mean looking at simi-realisticly, if your job in the military is to shoot the M-16, but your shooting and happen to look down and see a really nice M-240, are you going to say, "no i cant pick that up, im an M-16'er not a M-240'er." No your not going to do that......because it would be stupid, so its WAR, your main thing may be to swing a hammer/choppa, doesnt mean if you find something better you cant figure out how to reach down and grab it! ScroatzZ out.

[Salka Valka]

*EDITED for content*

[Vidrak]

*snip*
Wow, where did you get all this information?

[Gemini]

Alright, i understand that it kindda messes up the name thing, but just a little bit. They're called Hammerers not, " that only knows how to hold a hammer" I mean looking at simi-realisticly, if your job in the military is to shoot the M-16, but your shooting and happen to look down and see a really nice M-240, are you going to say, "no i cant pick that up, im an M-16'er not a M-240'er." No your not going to do that......because it would be stupid, so its WAR, your main thing may be to swing a hammer/choppa, doesnt mean if you find something better you cant figure out how to reach down and grab it! ScroatzZ out.

Problem is, your comparing gun to gun, not gun to RPG launcher. If you don't know how to fire the RPG, your probably not gonna just randomly grab and think "Huh, wonder if this is what I do."

A hammerer will use hammers, because thats all they are trained to use. They hammer things, it's what they do. Choppas could care less about other less orcy weapons, they want to chop things. Swordmasters look down on inferior weapons to the Elven swords, they won't even use an Empire sword. Mythic has said time and time again that hammerers will only use hammers, Choppas will only use choppas, and Swordmasters will only use swords. If they find a better hammer/choppa/sword, of course they'll grab it, just as a soldier would grab a better gun if they found one.

Wow, where did you get all this information?

Yeah, I would love to see a link to that source. However, I fear this is a giant beta leak.

[Auku]

Wow, where did you get all this information?

http://www.war-resource.com/careers/choppa.php#abilities

[Foofmonger]

http://www.war-resource.com/careers/choppa.php#abilities

He has waaay more info posted then that page has.

[Gemini]

http://www.war-resource.com/careers/choppa.php#abilities

That list is much shorter and has many diffrences from the one Salka posted.

[Baradun]

Hammerers have already been confirmed as being able to wield more then just hammers I would expect Choppas can also wield some other weapons but I have to say Orcs like choppas a lot, if you don't like choppas youre just not orcy enough! ;)

When did this happen? lol


"there hammerers, they hammer things, their not bowers, swordes or sword-bowers, they use hammers, so hammers is what it is and hammers is what it was" -Roughly quoted: Paul Barnette

[Gemini]

When did this happen? lol

It didn't. Mythic, not even just Paul, has been very clear and adement on their stance of Hammerers using other wepaons.

[Browncoat-WHA]

Folks, cite your source when posting information like that - and of course, if it's supposedly "leaked" info (which I'm not saying the list posted was), that's obviously a no-no. But don't try to pass off the stuff as fact.

[Boulvae]

From what I gathered in the past, I believed that rage increased his attack power while the other's momentum increased his attack SPEED.

But after rereading these tidbits:

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Dwarfs/Careers/Hammerer.php

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Greenskins/Careers/OrcChoppa.php

Actually, I reread them again and I was right, the Choppa's attack power increases, but the hammerer's speed increasing with str aswell or that could just be to spice it up a little.

That said, I belive that both of their mechanics is more geared towards a slightly different playstyles. Hammerer's mechanic for 2-handers and the Choppa boy's machanic for duel weilded.

[Gemini]

From what I gathered in the past, I believed that rage increased his attack power while the other's momentum increased his attack SPEED.

But after rereading these tidbits:

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Dwarfs/Careers/Hammerer.php

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/Greenskins/Careers/OrcChoppa.php

Actually, I reread them again and I was right, the Choppa's attack power increases, but the hammerer's speed increasing with str aswell or that could just be to spice it up a little.

That said, I belive that both of their mechanics is more geared towards a slightly different playstyles. Hammerer's mechanic for 2-handers and the Choppa boy's machanic for duel weilded.

Actually, it dosn't work like that, at least for the Choppa. Choppa's get an ability that causes them to go Beserk, and while Beserk they do more damage, take more damage, and unlock all sorts of cool new abilities. The cooldown is longer than the duration, so you can only be beserk part of the time.

[Salka Valka]

Folks, cite your source when posting information like that - and of course, if it's supposedly "leaked" info (which I'm not saying the list posted was), that's obviously a no-no. But don't try to pass off the stuff as fact.

I never pretended this was a fact. I actually said that i didnt know if this was new, old, untrue or outdated or something to that extend. I posted a similar post in the dwarf forums too at 10-15-2007, maybe you moderators should read dwarf stuff more than once in a blue moon.

[Vidrak]

I never pretended this was a fact. I actually said that i didnt know if this was new, old, untrue or outdated or something to that extend. I posted a similar post in the dwarf forums too at 10-15-2007, maybe you moderators should read dwarf stuff more than once in a blue moon.
I am sure they just removed it without reading it (after people reported the post). Much like developers do, listen to the whiners and then remove/change it without even thinking through it themselves, haha.

Or apparently, everyone just missed the disclaimer at the top. But I can see how it could be a "leak". While a lot of it is out-dated. If you think about it, it would be really easy leak information on the game by just saying "I don't know if this is right or not, but here you go".

That is why they asked for a source ... is my guess. But you also never stated it was fact, which leads me to believe it was more a knee-jerk reaction to remove it than anything else.

[Foofmonger]

I never pretended this was a fact. I actually said that i didnt know if this was new, old, untrue or outdated or something to that extend. I posted a similar post in the dwarf forums too at 10-15-2007, maybe you moderators should read dwarf stuff more than once in a blue moon.

There are only two options.

A, It was fake. You posted a bunch of abilities that are not real.

B, It was a leak. You posted a bunch of abilities that Mythic has not released.

Either way, the mods are gonna remove it.