View Full Version : The ironbreaker is defensive.
Kniffa
11-14-2006, 03:19 PM
From what i've read the ironbreaker is a defensive class. And from what ive also heard WAR is more PvP based then PvE. what is the ironbreaker good for as defensive in PvP? Maby its nice to defense ur base with some shield. But the enemy won't die by blocking their attacks.
Grrblt
11-14-2006, 03:48 PM
From what i've read the ironbreaker is a defensive class. And from what ive also heard WAR is more PvP based then PvE. what is the ironbreaker good for as defensive in PvP? Maby its nice to defense ur base with some shield. But the enemy won't die by blocking their attacks.
They won't die from blocked attacks, but they will die from the DPS classes that they couldn't attack because the Ironbreaker prevented them. Or, if they do kill the DPS classes instead of the Ironbreaker, they will die from the Ironbreaker who now has full Grudge.
Kraus
11-14-2006, 03:56 PM
As the Ironbreakers teammates are attacked he builds up grudge against the characters attacking them, this grudge appears to be a damage bonus that will in turn let him rip them to shreds if they ignore him long enough... and in addition to that, he's heavily armored.
Think of him more as a large slowly moving boulder then a defensive character, once he gets started, it gets vicious.
Smachaz
11-14-2006, 04:34 PM
As the Ironbreakers teammates are attacked he builds up grudge against the characters attacking them, this grudge appears to be a damage bonus that will in turn let him rip them to shreds if they ignore him long enough... and in addition to that, he's heavily armored.
Think of him more as a large slowly moving boulder then a defensive character, once he gets started, it gets vicious.
Man, better not fight an Ironbreaker on a hill then!:sad:
Belatucadros
11-15-2006, 01:04 PM
As the Ironbreakers teammates are attacked he builds up grudge against the characters attacking them, this grudge appears to be a damage bonus that will in turn let him rip them to shreds if they ignore him long enough... and in addition to that, he's heavily armored.
Think of him more as a large slowly moving boulder then a defensive character, once he gets started, it gets vicious.
^^ not only that, taunts in this game actually work in PVP, in that the target receives a debuff to damage if attacking ANY target but the taunter(in this case the ironbreaker)
Grimr
11-20-2006, 05:42 PM
^^ not only that, taunts in this game actually work in PVP, in that the target receives a debuff to damage if attacking ANY target but the taunter(in this case the ironbreaker)
That would be most handy, now if i uxnderstand it correctly the longer we are engaged in combat the better and harder hitting our attacks become? This would make us a powerfull group fighter, wouldn't it?
Kraus
11-20-2006, 06:46 PM
Thats more Hammerers in a way; what happens with Ironbreakers is when a target hits you or your friends (group members most likely, although radius AoE of your side would be prefered for me atleast) you build up a "Grudge" against that target, which translates into what appears to be a damage bonus.
The more they attack you and your buddies, the deadlier you become to them.
Grimr
11-21-2006, 04:49 AM
Thats more Hammerers in a way; what happens with Ironbreakers is when a target hits you or your friends (group members most likely, although radius AoE of your side would be prefered for me atleast) you build up a "Grudge" against that target, which translates into what appears to be a damage bonus.
The more they attack you and your buddies, the deadlier you become to them.
Grudge being something similair to for example rage in the warrior class in wow you mean? Hmm so the larger the battle to more powerfull one can become.. Intresting concept and worth a try, tho by the looks of the forum the Ironbreaker isn't getting much love :(
Belatucadros
11-21-2006, 07:16 AM
Grudge being something similair to for example rage in the warrior class in wow you mean? Hmm so the larger the battle to more powerfull one can become.. Intresting concept and worth a try, tho by the looks of the forum the Ironbreaker isn't getting much love :(
Most people are heavily jaded about defensive tanks, as seen by the original post here :P
Mythic, it looks, has gone a long way to fixing that.
Some of the leaked abilities show a really interesting direction for the ironbreaker. Admittedly alpha, but I think they would rather start working on a class than make up random abilities to trick us :P
Intercept - you take a percentage of the damage the person you are intercepting for would have.
He has a few others - if you block, there is a chance it debuffs enemy weaponskill/damage.
If you block, your chance to crit goes up. etc.
Grimr
11-21-2006, 07:34 AM
Most people are heavily jaded about defensive tanks, as seen by the original post here :P
Mythic, it looks, has gone a long way to fixing that.
Some of the leaked abilities show a really interesting direction for the ironbreaker. Admittedly alpha, but I think they would rather start working on a class than make up random abilities to trick us :P
Intercept - you take a percentage of the damage the person you are intercepting for would have.
He has a few others - if you block, there is a chance it debuffs enemy weaponskill/damage.
If you block, your chance to crit goes up. etc.
Aye, I can't help myself but always go for the warrior type of character, not to mention i got a big block of Ironbreakers on the tabletop and I just love em... The way their armour looks, there tasks of chasing Skaven out of the deep mines..
I only have a problem with leaking barrels of ale, not information ;)
Edit: Found your topic with the info, cheers
Halfhand
11-21-2006, 09:26 AM
Grudge being something similair to for example rage in the warrior class in wow you mean? Hmm so the larger the battle to more powerfull one can become.. Intresting concept and worth a try, tho by the looks of the forum the Ironbreaker isn't getting much love :(
Actually, the Hammerer's momentum would be more like a WoW rage bar. If you need a WoW reference, grudge would be more like combo points. Except...different.
Kraus
11-21-2006, 02:14 PM
Grudge only works against specific targets as they do damage.
HennethPB
11-21-2006, 06:16 PM
I already decides to be an ironbreaker....i love playing dwarves. In every other RPG i always played a dwarf...(if there was one)..
the Devs of WAR also said that every class will be capable melee fighters too..so dont worry about the dps.
tho by the looks of the forum the Ironbreaker isn't getting much love :(
There used to be more topics in here but they all ended up about the SAME THING basically. So I think the mods "took out the trash". It's funny. You know what it was about?
Ironbreakers not being able to hold their own in PvP.
I'm glad they took it out, simply because it won't be true as far as abilities and roles are concerned. As it stands, no class is going to be underpowered or overpowered.
I'm just waiting for the numbers to start rolling in.
P.S. The threads could have just expired, I just remember they kept going and weren't really going anywhere.
the Devs of WAR also said that every class will be capable melee fighters too..so dont worry about the dps.
Yea man. I don't mind a pure caster, but they should logically be able to hold their own in melee, because there was a time they were little and probably didn't know magic, so they fiddled around with a sword.
That's what makes me love Warhammer more and more.
Belatucadros
11-24-2006, 06:52 AM
The ironbreaker is defensive.
Man, the title of this thread always cracks me up, because I am reminded of this pic:
http://www.knitemare.org/cats/270907174_8684c20b94.jpg
Kraus
11-24-2006, 01:33 PM
They wouldnt of been deleted Ken, try expanding how many threads you display through the options at the bottom. They will still be around, just havnt been posted in actively to display under normal viewing options, thankfully.
Well that sucks....that they're still there.
Awesome pic Bel.
I just like how everyone seems to have their own "zomg ur dead lol". Of course it comes in different variations according to the class and as I like Ironbreakers (because dwarfs are just awesome), they just seem to have the most boring variation of it. It just seems so slow and "auto-attack on".
BUT THEN AGAIN! Taunts are going to own. And they'll probably have some cool abilities (as well as the other "slow" classes) that pick up the pace of the class.
Not to say Ironbreakers ARE slow. That's just all I've seen so far. (Because they seem to be revolving around crits. WoW Paladinish, except better. I definitely don't see them being so uninvolved [and I'm speaking for the paladins that are mainly auto-attack. Because I know they have a little more to them.])
Sorry for WoW comparison. I know someone's gonna jump on my _____ for it.
Guivert
12-21-2006, 09:52 AM
Hmmm ...
If there's collision detection in RvR (and let's hope there is, since that would mean the best fantasy pvp ever), I can only imagine how good a double thick line of Ironbreakers could be.
In a seriously organized RvR situation, they could all be grouped together (in as many groups as that would take), form a front line, or defensive wall around a certain position, and absolutely wail on all the opposing melee that will be trying to break through. Think of all the Grudge that'd produce when the enemy's only option is to attack the Ironbreakers!
Throw some Engineers behind them chucking bombs, and you'd have quite the force.
Yea, it's going to make tanks some vicious stuff in PvP. The problem that arose a while ago was the thought of Dwarfs not getting as much collision detection range as, say, Black Orcs. It's kind of been assumed that everyone will have the same "collision block" floating around them. Same size for everyone. Which I'm sure will be the case, it just serves as a problem of balance if that wasn't the case.
Belatucadros
12-27-2006, 06:20 AM
Depends how dwarfs are compensated ;)
Howver black orcs already having tons of snare/knockdown moves, you have to wonder ;\
Sadly this is the kind of stuff we need to wait for Beta to figure out, way too hard to speculate
Hehe yea. Actually you were the one who brought up the collision detection block if I remember correctly. At least, you were a part of that conversation.
Yea with all the snares and and dazes, I do wonder how Ironbreakers will be versus Black Orcs... it's obvious and safe to say Ironbreakers will get a lot more criticals than Black Orcs.
Between the two I suppose I would say Black Orcs are small damage (compared to Ironbreakers) with utility. And Ironbreakers are big damage, with better defense. That would put Black Orcs more in the aggressive role of tanking, and the Ironbreakers in more of the defensive (disregarding damage numbers, one is obviously more active than the other. Hence aggressive/defensive. I had to explain because there's always someone who misunderstands and jumps on it and is like "LOL SRY I KNO EVERYTHING KEN" and then someone else jumps in "LOL YA RLY HE DOES!")
Such is the way of forums. Sadly.
Belatucadros
12-28-2006, 08:16 AM
Lol Sry I Kno Everything Ken
Belatucadros
12-28-2006, 08:17 AM
Anyway - yeah I was forgetting grudge there, actually. Grudge and the early alpha abilities they were looking at point towards the ironbreaker being able to build up to some serious damage, whereas the black orc seems to be more about disabling/etc.
I think I remember a long long time ago reading something about an aura that increases defense or damage or something? They had a list of ideas to make good reasons to fight the tank in PvP.
I think with Black Orcs snaring everyone and making the fight difficult, it pretty much covers everyone fighting the Black Orc in that instance. But for Ironbreakers...yea they start doing more damage and stuff, but that'd only make the one guy he's fighting want to fight him.
Maybe two if he taunts a second person, then fights the first.
You think they might go with that aura thing? I'm thinking if it's not an aura that just decreases damage for party memebers, or increases damage whatever, it may just be some kind of morale aura. Since he's kind of the "guy in front". Has an aura of "LOL OUR LEADER IS STRONG" hence raising morale.
Anyone else remember them mentioning some kind of aura for the Ironbreaker? If so, what do you think they may do? Or if they won't do it.
Belatucadros
12-29-2006, 07:55 AM
Don't remember that at all actually.
However I know black orcs get a "dat wuz awesome" talent at current from those screenshots. Every time you block, it so impresses your groupmates that they gain some morale. I bet IB have something similar.
Grudge, depending on scaling, is a great incentive. That combined with the taunts may be enough.
My only concern re: grudge is it kind of forces your target as well. Then again all people are supposed to be doing DPS, so...
I mean, in DAOC - you want your tanks on the support/casters. But if the casters/tanks are the ones doing the damage, that means I have no grudge bonus against the support, so it makes more sense for the IB to ignore support ;\
wru beta so we can see how this plays out
"dat wuz awesome"
Haha that's the best thing I ever heard. I just imagine a bunch of orcs all big, mean and green. Fighting. "WAAAGGGHH!!". One of them blocks an attack. They all stop and look. Then say "huhuhuh! dat wuz awesome!"
Belatucadros
12-30-2006, 08:25 PM
"dat wuz awesome"
Haha that's the best thing I ever heard. I just imagine a bunch of orcs all big, mean and green. Fighting. "WAAAGGGHH!!". One of them blocks an attack. They all stop and look. Then say "huhuhuh! dat wuz awesome!"
hehe, yeah...that's part of what is going to make WAR great imo. I means it!
versuvius
01-05-2007, 05:46 AM
methinks orcs will have a poblem snaring tanks
As long as they can make the others hit them and keep them in range the fact they are defensive and don't deal damage is imo irrelevant.
versuvius
01-08-2007, 07:22 AM
tank flies at orc...orc tries to snare tank....orc is messy puddle
Black Razor
01-08-2007, 09:36 PM
From what I understand Ironbreakers will be a retaliation style tank ... take the hit and then deliver a powerful counter attack .. at least thats my interpritation. I would think on an RvR field of war it will be common place to see breakers guarding key positions and even artillery positions helping to hold the line.
versuvius
01-09-2007, 09:17 AM
a wall can be related to iron breakers....exept standard walls tend not to hit people with hammers
Good news for the defensive style of the Ironbreakers; players will be collision mapped. Meaning you can't just run through you opposition, which is why, and I quote from Gamespot: "... PVP battles seem to share something in common with tackle football (the American kind): In order to get at the vulnerable quarterback, you need to get past a couple of big, thick-necked linemen."
Suddenly, playing a tank in PvP makes much more sense.
Rhordar Ironbreaker
02-02-2007, 02:08 AM
Good news for the defensive style of the Ironbreakers; players will be collision mapped. Meaning you can't just run through you opposition, which is why, and I quote from Gamespot: "... PVP battles seem to share something in common with tackle football (the American kind): In order to get at the vulnerable quarterback, you need to get past a couple of big, thick-necked linemen."
Suddenly, playing a tank in PvP makes much more sense.
Damn, I really like the sound of that. I can't wait to tackle some Greenskin scum, or Chaos, or dark elfs for that matter! Just give me the game allready!! :twisted:
Rhordar
Also, I've read somewhere, that while the Ironbreaker is ideally a tank, he will be able to use great weapons, such as two-handed axes and hammers. He won't work wonders with doing damage, but he can use them. It should probably be applicable to the other tank-classes as well.
Grimr
02-05-2007, 11:25 AM
Good news for the defensive style of the Ironbreakers; players will be collision mapped. Meaning you can't just run through you opposition, which is why, and I quote from Gamespot: "... PVP battles seem to share something in common with tackle football (the American kind): In order to get at the vulnerable quarterback, you need to get past a couple of big, thick-necked linemen."
Suddenly, playing a tank in PvP makes much more sense.
It does, will this be the first game where a shieldwall will matter, imagine...
versuvius
02-06-2007, 11:43 AM
rofl....i bet ironbreakers build walls just to have summat to defend in a battle
Ruriktheoneeye
02-08-2007, 09:09 AM
Collision mapping is what will bring me to this game ill love nothing more then to sit there in the middle of a wall of my kin and hammer the orcs trying to get by and hurt our bomb throwers and rune crafters.
Collision mapping is what will bring me to this game ill love nothing more then to sit there in the middle of a wall of my kin and hammer the orcs trying to get by and hurt our bomb throwers and rune crafters.
Yea I'm pretty psyched. Just remember there will be times where you'll be surrounded by 2-3 orcs and you can't move. (I say orcs, but I meant that for everyone)
I noticed there's a bit of "knockbacking" in the videos, and maybe that could serve as an escape if you ever WERE to get "boxed in".
Only time will tell.
Belatucadros
02-09-2007, 06:45 AM
At current you can slowly push through, I imagine a similar mechanic will be in place
although watching those gamespot HD videos it seems the IB is more than offensive enough as well
Haha yea when me and my little bro were watching that last RvR video, and you see that Ironbreaker smashing the orc's face. A huge crashing sound. Orc went down like that.
We just laughed at how awesome that was.
But yea...that old early alpha talent calc someone threw together looked like it had a lot of +Crit in it. And a few -Crit against, too. I wouldn't imagine their whole thing is having really high armor and hard hits. Hits hard. Hard to hit (through the armor). That's my impression anyway.
Belatucadros
02-10-2007, 10:02 PM
Yeah...I am sure if you move slowly though that video there you can see a few of their melee styles etc.
Dante
02-12-2007, 03:53 PM
The Ironbreaker is a defensive character which not can only soak up damage buts also dish out some of his own through his melee abilities and such, whilst the Black Orc is a defensive character with a disabling edge.
versuvius
02-12-2007, 03:56 PM
lol...ok lads into a defensive huddle, oi gurni go make a wall for us to defend!
I was just reading gamespot's article on the Press Event in January.
"In our first match, we played as a dwarf ironbreaker--the faction's heavy-duty melee fighter who uses "grudges" born against specific enemies to deal extra damage to them in battle, and uses shields to not only defend themselves, but also to charge forward at enemies, knocking them flat and immobilizing them. Though you might expect the ironbreaker to mainly serve a defensive role in battle, the character seems to serve two purposes: one, to defend your faction's fragile runepriests, and two, to aggressively use its various abilities to slow or temporarily stun fleeing enemies."
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/warhammeronline/news.html?sid=6164998&om_act=convert&om_clk=newlyadded&page=2
They also said positioning is a big key in PvP as a tank. Finding "buffer points" to stop someone from passing you.
Naturally, I'm not going to like the extra work when I play my Black Orc...but I'll get over it.
Duerghaul
02-19-2007, 04:42 PM
from previous vids and screenshots ive seen, the Hammerer has consistently done twice as much damage as the Ironbreaker, including critical hits. and it makes sense the engineer might do also more dps. the grudges and using a 2hd weapon might narrow the gap, of course. but it seems the Ironbreaker excels at defense in a party/group role.
Oh yea no doubt. My post was actually directed towards the original post.
The shield-charge thing really ups the "engaging" part of this defensive career. Not to mention any possible shield bashes we haven't heard of...
Getting hit in the face with a shield would definitely do some kind of daze. Assuming the Ironbreaker has it.
Belatucadros
02-20-2007, 06:49 AM
I'm not sure how you can say consistently....just how many videos of actual damage have we seen? Not to mention it's hard to see what the hell is going on half the time heh.
I think the IB will do very fine offensively, but I'm picturing it as more of a sword/shield armsman in DAOC - group defense/utility
Duerghaul
02-20-2007, 02:03 PM
I'm not sure how you can say consistently....just how many videos of actual damage have we seen? Not to mention it's hard to see what the hell is going on half the time heh.
Im positive that theres 3 videos that both have hammerers and ironbreakers engaged in combat (i believe there are more, though). If you slow the videos down and pause them, you can keep track of the damage, as well as special class attacks, being performed. I also had a guildmate who played both classes at a convention who had attested to this.
You can't really blame us...considering games are a LOT different when you're actually behind the wheel, or have actually seen it for yourself and have a pretty general knowledge of all the abilities.
Videos may be able to give you numbers flying up, but what abilities were being used and what do they do?... How much HP did the target have? It's unarguable that the Hammerer does a lot of damage compared to the Ironbreaker... I think what Bel was saying is that the Ironbreaker will do fine offensively. The word I used that would parallel this is "engaging".
The problem I have with a lot of those RvR videos is that either this game is a lot harder to play than it seems, or those press people just aren't that good at it...
But then again. There should be some sort of learning curve, even though it will have similar qualities to other MMO's just because it's an MMO...and of the same genre.
Evil weasel
02-22-2007, 04:38 PM
triple post my bad
Evil weasel
02-22-2007, 04:40 PM
ugh 3x the post... whats up with me today >.<
Evil weasel
02-22-2007, 04:41 PM
har har di'd ya know our squigiez can jump ovea people har har reed da't diskriptien if yar' dunt beleeve meh, dem herdie types willz be da deff to yar solirid wal idearziez:mrgreen:
anyhow ya the discription says that squigs can jump over you to bite at your back
You must also be alert however, as Squigs can bypass your own line with their fast leaping movements and strike at your back field.
fun fun for the herders if they have some tankers to back them up eh? well anyhow i think it will be cool to see how well it works vs the wall of iron
Duerghaul
02-22-2007, 04:49 PM
fun fun for the herders if they have some tankers to back them up eh? well anyhow i think it will be cool to see how well it works vs the wall of iron
Number of Dwarf classes with medium or better armor: 3
Ironbreaker
Hammerer
Runepriest
Number of Greenskins with medium or better armor: 1
Black Orc
Choppas have "Light to moderate armor allowing flexibility and mobility". Don't worry. When you die, it will be quick and painless.
Evil weasel
02-22-2007, 06:20 PM
i think its pretty equal.. seeing as they might balance more dmg/less armor or
less armor/more hp but i dont think they would implement it if they didnt think it would even out aka(balanced rvr) other wize who would play orcs?... besides us orcs of coarse
Wodrik
02-24-2007, 09:04 PM
I like the take the pain, hold the line role. I always enjoyed PVPing in wow with a shield . This should be much more rewarding ...and effective.
versuvius
02-25-2007, 12:12 PM
what sort of shield? the small round ones or kite shields?
what sort of shield? the small round ones or kite shields?
WoW doesn't really work like that. It's more like...the epic shield that everyone else has.
versuvius
02-26-2007, 10:57 AM
thats terrible....i played WoW for a bit an i prefered the bigger ones...looked bi enough neway
Black Hammer
03-06-2007, 07:08 PM
I'm interested to know how effective collision really is. I feel like in the RvR demo videos, players were scattered and playing as if they were in WoW. No one was creating lines or pushing characters. I think that's where the fun of playing an Ironbreaker will lie, really getting organized and herding enemies. You know, standing strong like an anvil so the Hammerers can bring down their hammers.
Draugh
03-10-2007, 07:25 PM
It's an alpha client as it is. Don't expect to see tactics, since the devs are most likely just messing around with stuff, testing abilities and checking and rechecking systems.
Collision adds a lot to games, mainly by making it strategic. It gives meaning to tanks and support classes by allowing them to do their jobs.
The main difference I see with Ironbreakers and Black Orcs is that IB's prefer to actually deal the damage themselves, since there aren't as many people left standing when they get their maximum "Grudge" levels. The Black Orc instead will probably be a "catalyst" for dealing the damage, keeping the target weakened or in a state where they can't launch effective counter attacks or defend themselves.
Typical IB with Hammerer strategy would probably be to hold the enemies attention and let the Hammerer's build up some Momentum.
Typical BO with Choppa strategy would probably be to incapacitate the enemy, allowing the Choppa to get some extra hits in and become Berserk.
Duerghaul
03-14-2007, 12:38 PM
Has there been any word on how Grudge will develop? We all know that it occurs when you and your party members take damage, but is it just Dwarf party members? I can't see how, lore wise, an Ironbreaker could legitimately build grudge when a Dark Elf attacks a High Elf just because they happen to be grouped together.
-Game wise, it would be better for the IB to build up grudges when any kind of party member gets attacked, making the IB more useful and relevant to the entire alliance.
-Lore and roleplay wise, the IB should only build up grudges when another Dwarf is attacked. This will foster single race groups and guilds.
Im not sure which aspect i believe in, since id like to see the IB as effective as possible, while simultaneously wanting to see players sticking to the lore of mono-race armies. I guess the Greenskins are going to have to ask a similar questions as to whether their Waaagh magic will work when everyone in their party deals damage, or just when the Greenskins within their party deal damage.
Black Hammer
03-14-2007, 01:46 PM
I think the way the world is set up encourages single race armies as it is. Each zone seems fairly autonomous and there is an endgame in each of them. Switching zones will be possible I'm sure, but if you don't want to do that you can just stay in your own zone the whole way through. I expect to see a few members of the other races in each zone, but not nearly as diverse as, say, the WoW is after level 15 or so.
Aron_DeTomado
03-14-2007, 02:30 PM
The informal title of "Dwarf Friend", though a very rare and prestigious honor, is sometimes awarded to non-dwarfs if they've proven themselves trustworthy to the dwarven race as a whole (Felix from the G&F series would be an example). When such is the case dwarfs are just as likely to harbor a grudge wrought against them as any other dwarf.
Feigro
03-15-2007, 12:37 PM
I think the way the world is set up encourages single race armies as it is. Each zone seems fairly autonomous and there is an endgame in each of them. Switching zones will be possible I'm sure, but if you don't want to do that you can just stay in your own zone the whole way through. I expect to see a few members of the other races in each zone, but not nearly as diverse as, say, the WoW is after level 15 or so.
I think switching fronts is going to end up the more ideal and infact common playstyle. People will flock to the action wherever it is strongest, regardless of the confines of lore. The bulk of the population will run to any Capitol that happens to be in conflict, even if their character is a Dwarf, but said capital is Elven.
All players? no. But I'm sure it's going to become pretty common.
Oggzy
03-16-2007, 11:51 PM
As far as people trying to distinguish between the defensive fighting styles of an Ironbreaker and a Black Orc, the way I see it, it can be best defined through analogy.
Think of trying to fight a Black Orc as trying to move though thick mud. You can make slow progress, but as you do it becomes harder and harder to move forward as the mud sucks you in (the mud being the Blorc's debuffs and stuns and combos).
Fighting an Ironbreaker on the other hand, is like working a punching bag. Now, hold on, that may seem negative, but it's not, as punching bags can be tricky if you don't pay attention. You hit a punching bag, and it swings away, then swings back and hits you unless you punch it away again. So, you keep hitting it over and over, but you can't keep it up forever, eventually you've gotta stop. And when you do, it's gonna come back and smack you with all the force you've been hitting it with and more.
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