Empire careers: Knight of the Blazing Sun and Witch Hunter

[Gabriel]

Last 2 empire classes announced:

Knight of the blazing sun : Tank
Waitch Hunter: Ranged/Dps

Here's the link:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/warha...&click=topslot (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/warha...&click=topslot)

Edit:oops.Didn't see you already knew that.Sorry.:rolleyes:

[Flegler]

So... what does everybody think?

I put my opinion in another thread, but I'm annoyed enough to spam the forums.
We've now seen all the classes the Empire has to offer and every single one is a member of a rare and elite order that together amount to about 1% of the Empire's forces.

Bright Wizards are just one of eight colleges of magic, and those are just the licensed battle wizards. No Warlocks or Hedge Wizards in this game. Not even an Alchemist or Druid.

Warrior Priests represent a single branch of the Church of Sigmar, the Order of the Hammer. We'll have no chance to play any of the less official religious nutters, like a Friar or a Flagellant, much less a priest of Ulric, Taal or Mórr.

Witch Hunters could represent a number of organisations, like the Reiksguard's special branch or the Sigmarites' Order of the Cleansing Flame. Even so they;re a rare, secretive and specialised lot, and we'll not be able to play any of the more numerous and equally interesting characters that fit the light armour, swords and pistols mode. Duellists, Outriders, Pistolliers? Never. Engineers, Outlaws, Bounty Hunters, Thieves, Highwaymen, Assassins, Scouts, Hunters, Foresters? Not a chance.

And then we have the Knight of the Blazing Sun. Wouldn't just "Knight" have been restrictive enough? It seems that if I want to play a human warrior in heavy armour then Mythic have decreed that I must be a member of an elite and esoteric order of Knights chosen to fit the by-fire-be-purged art style that everyone in the Empire must have. Sure, I could roll a KotBS and call myself a Freelance or a Knight Panther, but I'll be roleplaying contrary to the game. I'll still be wearing gilded armour and carry a lance with a sunburst pennant. I'll still get my skills from NPCs with <Knight of the Blazing Sun> written on their heads. The only characters I could play with this skillset are either a Knight of the Blazing Sun or someone doing a damn good job of pretending to be one.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for as much Warhammer flavour as possible. I love the Knights of the Blazing Sun's style, I used to have a unit in my tabletop army. Bright Wizards too look damn fine. I'd love for my characters to have the chance to join these orders. But why the hell couldn't Mythic have gone with generic Warrior, Wizard, Priest, Scout classes and let us make our own characters?

The developers have said that character customisation is important to them. Apparently this means being able to choose what's written on the book that your priest has strapped to his chest, or whether you'll wear two or three plumes in your helmet. I was hoping for an online RPG set in the Warhammer world. This game looks like it'll be the same 24 characters endlessly respawning in instanced battlegrounds. I just wish Mythic had taken the chance to finish WHO, and put the graphics they're using for WAR in it. Now that would have been a good game.

[dutch_gamer]

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for as much Warhammer flavour as possible. I love the Knights of the Blazing Sun's style, I used to have a unit in my tabletop army. Bright Wizards too look damn fine. I'd love for my characters to have the chance to join these orders. But why the hell couldn't Mythic have gone with generic Warrior, Wizard, Priest, Scout classes and let us make our own characters?


You have already answered your own question in your own little rant. Mythic and GW want to go for iconic classes, not for generic ones.

I really don't see the problem with iconic classes. You also mention that there will be 24 different classes. You basically want 2 or more different classes within one class. You do understand that this will lead to even more than 24 classes, right? Those classes will then most likely have a lot of skills that are a direct copy of another class. This doesn't make for a less cookie-cutter gameplay but more. You only have so many different types of abilities before it all becomes a repeat of an ability of a similar class. Mythic is trying their best to give every class a distinctive playstyle. When you allow for generic archetypes this will not be the case.

[Flegler]

Mythic is trying their best to give every class a distinctive playstyle. When you allow for generic archetypes this will not be the case.

The Ironbreaker, Black Orc and Chosen are all generic fighter/tank classes. This doesn't make them any less "iconic" of Dwarfs, Orcs or Chaos. I'm sure they all have many similar abilities too, as well as some abilities that are unique to each.

The Knight of the Blazing Sun is iconic only of a Knight of the Blazing Sun. There are many more ways to implement a fighter that says Empire - stick a human in heavy armour, don't give him any mutations, optionally let him learn to use a lance, pistol, halberd or hammer. Good and Imperial, doesn't force the player to be a Knight, much less join a particular order. Let him paint his armour black and gold though, and there you have a Knight of the Blazing Sun for those that want it.

[Heno]

I told a friend that we're going Destruction. He wanted to go Order, in the end he agreed that if Witchhunters were a playable class we'd go Alliance.

I agreed, because I thought it'd be unlikely, as that would just be too awesomely perfect.

Dammit!

[Seldaren]

But why the hell couldn't Mythic have gone with generic Warrior, Wizard, Priest, Scout classes and let us make our own characters?

Because WAR isn't that kind of game. This isn't an "RP sandbox" for folks to play in.

Going with generic classes would've been boring IMO. Putting in specific classes gives Mythic a focus for background material and quests and stuff.

Generic characters = generic game.

Also, if they put in generic classes, they would probably have had to allow for the joining of the various different orders. That would lead to there being far more than just four classes.

So we get four, very specific careers. I think it's better in the long run, to be honest.

Seldaren

[Vikingkingq]

The Ironbreaker, Black Orc and Chosen are all generic fighter/tank classes. This doesn't make them any less "iconic" of Dwarfs, Orcs or Chaos. I'm sure they all have many similar abilities too, as well as some abilities that are unique to each.

The Knight of the Blazing Sun is iconic only of a Knight of the Blazing Sun. There are many more ways to implement a fighter that says Empire - stick a human in heavy armour, don't give him any mutations, optionally let him learn to use a lance, pistol, halberd or hammer. Good and Imperial, doesn't force the player to be a Knight, much less join a particular order. Let him paint his armour black and gold though, and there you have a Knight of the Blazing Sun for those that want it.

Ummm....no.

Ironbreakers and Black Orcs are both Special Units, not Core Units.
Chosen don't fit exactly, but are closer to Champions of Chaos than Chaos Warriors.

[Pendrako]

I was thinking along the same lines as Flegler to start with, hoping that we'd be able to play characters that we could develop ourselves a lot more, but I can see now why they haven't gone down that route.

Generic characters = generic game.

This to me is the key point. Giving players generic characters and hoping that they develop them into iconic WH characters wouldn't work - just because we know the WH background and would take the time to develop characters which fit into it doesn't mean that the vast majority would. I'd expect to see people taking their generic warrior and turning him into a Boromir clone, or their generic elf would become Legolas clone #139221.

It's a shame to have to remove so many options and give players such strong direction about the path their characters have to go down, but it's the only way to bring Warhammer to the uninitiated. It means I won't be able to play my character from WHFB, but I'm getting over the disappointment pretty quickly - time for me to start planning my manic depressive Bright Wizard character 8)

Yes, there is much more to the Empire than those 4 classes, but we don't know what Mythic's plans for NPCs are... I'm sure we'll see plenty of other careers making an appearance in WAR.

[Flegler]

Ummm....no.
Ironbreakers and Black Orcs are both Special Units, not Core Units.
Chosen don't fit exactly, but are closer to Champions of Chaos than Chaos Warriors.
They're given the names of special units, but basically the classes are Dwarf fighter and Orc fighter, though I'm sure they have different abilities. A tier 1 Ironbreaker is basically a Warrior and a tier 4 Ironbreaker is much like a Thane or a Lord. He represents the legions of stalwart Dwarfen axemen, it's up to the player's skill to distinguish him as a hero.

A Knight of the Blazing Sun is a member specific order of a certain specialised unit in the Empire's forces. He's not emblematic of the rank-and-file or the elite veterans or their commanders. Empire players are forced to choose from one of four obscure orders for their character. Why, when no other race has to do this?

It's a shame to have to remove so many options and give players such strong direction about the path their characters have to go down, but it's the only way to bring Warhammer to the uninitiated.
Pendrako, there are many ways to bring Warhammer to the uninitiated and I think Mythic is doing a good job of it. As long as magic is dangerous, lances are used alongside firearms, there are beastmen in the woods and Sigmar protects his people, then the Empire is being accurately represented. Making every soldier and hero into a Knight (of the Blazing Sun, no less!) is not true to the spirit of Warhammer or the Empire.


Incidentally, does anybody really like the KotBS and intend to play one? Would any of those people be less happy with a generic Freelance, Captain or Greatsword?

[Grendal]

They're given the names of special units, but basically the classes are Dwarf fighter and Orc fighter, though I'm sure they have different abilities. A tier 1 Ironbreaker is basically a Warrior and a tier 4 Ironbreaker is much like a Thane or a Lord. He represents the legions of stalwart Dwarfen axemen, it's up to the player's skill to distinguish him as a hero.

But how then is that different then the empire? Find a helm that doesn't have as many plumes, or just go helmetless if it's that big a deal. Your essentially argueing that even though the dwarves have characters that are elites in there society. I mean you can say at Tier 1 there jsut a warror and at Tier 4 your a thane but no mattet what it's still going to say Ironbreaker above your head. Also you're assuming that none of the elf characters will be any type of special unit. I think you're limiting the empire far more than any of the other characters and I simply don't agree with that.

[spirit]

They're given the names of special units, but basically the classes are Dwarf fighter and Orc fighter, though I'm sure they have different abilities. A tier 1 Ironbreaker is basically a Warrior and a tier 4 Ironbreaker is much like a Thane or a Lord. He represents the legions of stalwart Dwarfen axemen, it's up to the player's skill to distinguish him as a hero.

A Knight of the Blazing Sun is a member specific order of a certain specialised unit in the Empire's forces. He's not emblematic of the rank-and-file or the elite veterans or their commanders. Empire players are forced to choose from one of four obscure orders for their character. Why, when no other race has to do this?

The Knights of the blazing sun are emblamtic of all the knights templar orders. So a tier 1 will be a squire, while a tier 4 will be a mounted captain. Its exactly the same as the other races, it's just you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about it.

In fact, if I recall from my Warhammer days correctly, aren't knights templar core troops? If so, that makes them more core than any other races tank.

[Amelung]

Because WAR isn't that kind of game. This isn't an "RP sandbox" for folks to play in.

Going with generic classes would've been boring IMO. Putting in specific classes gives Mythic a focus for background material and quests and stuff.

Generic characters = generic game.

Also, if they put in generic classes, they would probably have had to allow for the joining of the various different orders. That would lead to there being far more than just four classes.

So we get four, very specific careers. I think it's better in the long run, to be honest.

Seldaren

But its a difference between 'one' possible choice, totally own choices and perhaps two, three choices of known warhammer.
I like really the presented 'Sun'knight, but all knights really absolutely similar? And all Knights of the Blazing Sun?
Iconic must not mean i-clonic. And warhammer is 'full' of differencies. Sure not the choice i will make a halfknight with some magic. Or a knight of my own.
And specific class must also not mean one very special here 'order'. The class could be knight of an order, some orders.
A knight is a knight but that dont mean a knight is only a knight of only one possible order in the Empire. To much unindividuality is also not well-thought.
So 'three' (imaginary number :D) important knights orders to follow with typical warhammer style but a bit individual, why not? I would like it more. And i see no single reason for implementing only one possibilty, only there is no time for doing the work for, but thats also for me only more a poor sight.

'One' possibility and one choice means exactly no choice if you want to play. Only the choice, playing or not playing. Ok thats very clear, everyone understand.
but noone is able to tell me its something really fine. Also looking very splendid and fully warhammerish our Knight of the Blazing Sun has a bit bitter taste for me.

[Guilliam]

Broken link gents

[quacktar]

Generic characters = generic game is true, for sure. It's hard to see, except from the outside of most mmos.

I started playing WoW again yesterday, and I can't pick a class. All of them are boring, tasteless, and bland. I didn't used to think so, but doing so much reading about and studying of this game makes it hard to even think about getting into Wow.

Other notes: We had to be the elites of the empire, because no one else has the autonomy to pick their battles. State troops get orders. Can you imagine playing the game as an imperial halabadier?

Sargeant: Stand shoulder to shoulder with these four guys here, in the third row of the unit, and take a charge from that bloodthirster.

you: Cancel quest.

Sargeant: Cancel what? You do what I say, noob. Take a charge from the bloodthirster.

you: kill 10 starving boars?

Bloodthirster: BLOODTHIRSTER, LOL.

You: My blood hurts!

No fun to be had. In the empire, no one gets to do what they want to do, except:

1. Witch hunters
2. Wizards
3. Priests
4. Independant knights (Blazing sun is pretty alone here. All other knights follow orders from their orders.)
5. Outlaws
6. Insane religious fanatics

Outlaws have no reason to fight the empires wars, so that leaves five here. Fanatics are insane and suicidal, so they are out (Insanity takes away your autonomy. Follow the voices) Mythic had literally NO choice in the classes. Everyone else in the empire is too poor and too under the thumb of others to make their own choices.

------
"Heed my warning, for it was I that predicted Knights of the Blazing Sun, the day before they were announced. Bow to my providence." ~ Quacktar the Forum Prophet.
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6063&page=14

[Flegler]

Iconic must not mean i-clonic.

Exactly! Mythic, listen to this man!

I'm all ranted out. Happy holidays all. Except for WAR's graphic artists, no holidays for you. I except detailed models of at least 3 Knightly Orders in the new year.

Or Freelances... twice as independent minded as the Blazing Suns and they get to have their own heraldry to boot. Just a thought...

[vehemoth]

The 4 careers of the empire cover its many aspects perfectly. They chose great career outlets for the remaining two.

Let's compare this raelm to the Dwarfs. Plz note that when I say supporter I do not mean healer+ buff bot ;)

Dwarfs:
- Ironbreaker: Melee and Protector
- Hammerer: Melee and DPS
- Runepriest: Caster and Supporter
- Engineer: Ranged and DPS (some would argue utility, but all careers have utility moves)

note: The greenskin careers are parallel in roles to the dwarves.

Empire:
- Warrior Priest: Melee and Supporter
- Bright Wizard: Caster and DPS
- Knight of the Blazing Sun: Melee and protector
- Witch Hunter: Ranged and DPS

note: It's safe to assume that the Chaos careers will be parallel in role

[Spleen]

1. Witch hunters
2. Wizards
3. Priests
4. Independant knights (Blazing sun is pretty alone here. All other knights follow orders from their orders.)
5. Outlaws
6. Insane religious fanatics

Outlaws have no reason to fight the empires wars, so that leaves five here. Fanatics are insane and suicidal, so they are out (Insanity takes away your autonomy. Follow the voices) Mythic had literally NO choice in the classes. Everyone else in the empire is too poor and too under the thumb of others to make their own choices.

QFT. This isn't the happy-go-lucky semi-peacetime WoW world, here. In Warhammer, if you are a soldier you will have no choices, no chances, and no fun. Unless you're special.

Mythic *could* conceivably have all the imperial halberdiers and bowmen suddenly given indefinate dismissal from active duty, but people have pissed and moaned about far smaller breaches of IP.

EDIT: I do have to agree, however, that the Blazing Sun restriction seems a bit much.

[Brother Volker]

Because WAR isn't that kind of game. This isn't an "RP sandbox" for folks to play in.

Going with generic classes would've been boring IMO. Putting in specific classes gives Mythic a focus for background material and quests and stuff.

Generic characters = generic game.

Also, if they put in generic classes, they would probably have had to allow for the joining of the various different orders. That would lead to there being far more than just four classes.

So we get four, very specific careers. I think it's better in the long run, to be honest.

Seldaren

I agree. More specific character classes means more specific, involving quests and story lines with even more detail and fluff.

Go Mythic!

[Commentaris]

Generic characters = generic game.


it's worse than that.

generic character = coocky cutter spec

take DAoC for example. every class had 3 to 6 different spec lines. we were free to spend 1500 (or whatever) points in those trees, making for virtually unlimited costumesation. and we all know what happened right? each class basically had 2 or 3 viable specs....out of unlimited options.

[Brother Volker]

it's worse than that.

generic character = coocky cutter spec

take DAoC for example. every class had 3 to 6 different spec lines. we were free to spend 1500 (or whatever) points in those trees, making for virtually unlimited costumesation. and we all know what happened right? each class basically had 2 or 3 viable specs....out of unlimited options.

It's the same for most mmo's... give people skill choices and they all most always chose the 2 or 3 most 'powerful' builds. I don't blame the gamers for this, it is flawed game design. Once again, more specific=better.

[ScarletBlade]

I can understand having to cut down on the number of character options to make sure the ones that are implemented are as good as they can be. I do wish that we would at least have some cosmetic options that would make all the diffrence for some players RP. For example dressing like Reiksguard instead of Blazing Sun or dressing like a night goblin instead of a common goblin. Also does it seem to anyone else that WAR is turning out to be more of a battle game with levels then a RPG? I'm not say thats entierly a bad thing but not what I expected.

[Shaggy]

Now, what I just found funny. EAlot of people seem to be complaining about the KoBS but want a each Chaos god to repserent one class.

If you don't like the KoBS being in you can either get use to it, pick another class or race, or don't get WAR either way.

I for one, am looking forward to fighting with the KoBS as my Warrior Priest.

[ScarletBlade]

Understand Shaggy that many people wanted to play as their favorite character from the table top game. It is understandable that there would be some people who were disapointed when they find out they won't beable to. So they do the only thing they can do whine and moan on these boards hoping beyond hope that a dev reads one of their posts and has the will and ablity to act on it. Also I don't see the conection between the Chaos argument and this one.

I am all for whiney ranty posts as long as they try to stay constructive. How else will the devs know what people like or don't like?

[Baron Khaine]

Flelger you stated that Mythic had just given the Orc and Dwarf Fighter class the names Ironbreaker and Black Orc even though they are special units TT, so whats the problem with Mythic giving the Human fighting class the name Knights of the Blazing Sun?

The Blazing Sun Order was the only Order Mythic could have gone for IMO, all the other major orders have quests and there Knights all go to the same place or near enough, they all follow the commands of there Order Leader. Blazing Sun Knights are solo Knights, sure they organise into Crusade groups sometimes, but there mainly off on there own quests. As for the "Generic" Knight comment, sure we'll make generic Knights as soon as Black Orcs are just called Orcs. Given the current names of classes, what did you expect?

[Amelung]

For me its clear, if there will be a 'unique' order, then the KoftBS are a good choice.
Also i read here really serious thoughts about the game, because most folks 'want' to play WAR, but not for all costs ;)

White wolves are not typical also in appearance for most empire they are the most special looking i will say most untypical. So they would be in outfit a really bad choice because they are not 'standing' for known empire, only for a one smallest part, unique in themselves but not for something representative.
If you see also in old armybooks different orders, our Sunknights are perhaps the most 'insane splendid' but so perhaps the most typical order for the bright empire against the dark Chaos.
White Wolves would look like a mercenary troop for perhaps empire or chaos, who knows? :).
I ever liked to play White Wolves in tabletop but not here, if i want to see something everyone is able to recognize...as warhammer empire. WIth long huge beards, pelts, White Wolves looking very unknightly if you compare with all other known empire knights.

But i still not understand why the empire will not send some Reiksguardknights to our battlefields??? Is he angry about our 'frontline' ? ;)

really i see a small danger for some individual (warhammer) choices surely 90% of all interested folks have, not only for the empire.
Why not classes playable, only absolute unique possibilities normally one possible content in classes?
So a class should and would be.. to be a knight in an order, perhaps one-three choices possible. At least a minimum (really only a minimum) of own players choice.
To say i want more the 'common' Reiksguard knight, or the really splendid Sunknight.

Ok, if this order will be the only playable then i hope there will be some different looking equipment for same level knights. Not generally different style, but some different possibilities for individual also for warhammer normal choice. A sallet, armet, visor helmet is for any order in absolutely same quality a choice for differnt helmets. Not only one possible helmet.
There would be some choices, not only live or die. A choice is everytime an alternative and not the choice reduced to one factly realistic possibility. Ok best would be give the players some alternatives. For me not an absolute must.... different orders, but to have possibilities for alternatives not only during different levels and stages of chardevelopment, also for same levels. Such 'wishes' are surely not impossible demands!
So please, pimp my ride (oh the wrong show, hm, and our Knight looks pimped :D, some ingame self-pimping would be good)

[ScarletBlade]

were is the fluff that says Blazing Suns are solo questing knights?

[Jhayden]

I wish the link was working. :( I really wanna see this stuff.

Anyway, great choice for a class. I love specific classes in MMOs, I think it really makes balancing PvP just THAT much A) Easier, and B) Intense. There are no special builds you can take which just out right dominate in PvP, someone I had nothing but contempt for.

Take Lineage 2 for example, another game with very specific character classes but you had to eventually become them. Unfortunetly because most people would much rather minmax their characters instead of playing something with flaws, so everyone chose the same class for every race. For High Elves it was Spellsingers, for Humans it was Dark Avengers, etc.

[quacktar]

The fluff can be found in, among other places, the Warhammer Fantasy Role Play book Sigmar's Heirs. Also, it can be found in the post in my sig. They are well known for wandering, questing, and lending their valuable experience to commanders in the field.

The reason they are able to do this is because they are followers of Myrmidia, goddess of strategy and the science of war. Therefore, they spend much of their time in training to be a knight learning tactical and strategic warfare theory. This makes them very valuable to everyone from battlefield commanders to Innkeepers organizing their defenses against a beastman raid.

Once trained, KoBS are sent out into the world to gain independant experience for a period of at least two years before coming back to join whatever crusade the KoBS are working on. Also, KoBS are the only knightly order you can join as a non-noble, allowing you to not have to roleplay a rich .

[Baron Khaine]

What the prophet said

[Guivert]

The KoBS are sounding like a really good choice for Mythic given their fluff. I'm not really 'into' the Empire at this point, but it looks like I might end up playing one of these.

And hey, a black and gold color scheme is going to look way cooler in-game than the bright reds or blues found on almost all of the other knightly orders.

[ScarletBlade]

I suppose I'll warm up to the Blazing Suns. I will miss yelling FOR SIGMAR AND KARL FRANZ!.

[Amelung]

I suppose I'll warm up to the Blazing Suns. I will miss yelling FOR SIGMAR AND KARL FRANZ!.
Be a perfidious KotBS and pray for Sigmar, and cheer for Karl Franz, i will forgive you, if you will be a knight and a good comerade :)

But now i need to make PR for the KotBS because i really not want White Wolves ;)
Its absolutely the very only order i want not see ingame. Ask not for my taste, i like also chocolate :D