The Empire's look

[Dolash]

There's a lot of angles to the topic of the Empire's look and feel - we could discuss the Germanic and Gothic influences in architecture, dress, and appearance, or we could discuss where between the high medieval and early renaissence they exist, or we could question what social structure is in place and how that will impact what we see (female soldiers, different provinces having different troops, etc). However, there's one specific area I want to focus on and get some opinions.

What are the Imperials themselves going to look like?

Are they all going to be white guys? Sure, in the lore there does exist most broad racial categories in the real world scattered about, but they mostly don't get along, so will average gamers accept a game that totally disallows all other races in character creation? What presence will women have in the Empire - outside of PCs, will they be just peasants and merchants, or will we see total intergration as there is in World of Warcraft? What about body types? Around what age will most characters be, and will they age with levels (as the dwarves grow larger beards)? How muscular are these characters going to be? Wirey and gangly, or professional-body-builder huge?

There is an intersection of practices, traditions, audiences, and expectations with this game that will result in a lot of difficult decisions. Fantasy role playing games of the table-top and pen-and-paper variety tend to be more comfortable creating impossible female forms and squeezing them into chainmail bikinies, whilst fantasy MMORPGs are starting to drift towards utilitarianism, and frankly what looks cool carved in peweter or drawn in a rulebook can look silly in 3-D on your computer screen. The smaller Warhammer tabletop audience might be comfortable with no black people or women in the majority of their game, but what about the larger, more diverse, and more sensitive video game audience that's used to a more diverse cast?

Relic has a great deal of wiggle room. The game seems to be set in some sort of alternate timeline offshoot, meaning that they can make small changes like adding female Knights of the Blazing Sun without forcing GW to release a new 50/50 boxed set for them. The gamer audience is also larger and more likely to fill their coffers, meaning that in design the desire might be to please them. Then again, it'll be the Warhammer players and their zeal and interest in a video game of their hobby that'll drive and push interest and word of mouth that'll attract said video gamers, and if the look and feel diverges too much they could abandone the game, which would hurt its' chances of drawing a large audience.

Any thoughts?

[Mirander]

On the subject of race, I would imagine that Empire characters will be restricted to being white. It is possible that some people may be offended by this, but perhaps Mythic could include lore in the game regarding the non-white human nations so people unfamiliar with Warhammer will understand that there are background reasons for this decision.

Maybe in the future we'll see expansions making Araby or Cathay playable, thus increasing human diversity without breaking the lore behind the game.

[Vikingkingq]

There's a lot of angles to the topic of the Empire's look and feel - we could discuss the Germanic and Gothic influences in architecture, dress, and appearance, or we could discuss where between the high medieval and early renaissence they exist, or we could question what social structure is in place and how that will impact what we see (female soldiers, different provinces having different troops, etc). However, there's one specific area I want to focus on and get some opinions.

What are the Imperials themselves going to look like?

Are they all going to be white guys? Sure, in the lore there does exist most broad racial categories in the real world scattered about, but they mostly don't get along, so will average gamers accept a game that totally disallows all other races in character creation? What presence will women have in the Empire - outside of PCs, will they be just peasants and merchants, or will we see total intergration as there is in World of Warcraft? What about body types? Around what age will most characters be, and will they age with levels (as the dwarves grow larger beards)? How muscular are these characters going to be? Wirey and gangly, or professional-body-builder huge?

There is an intersection of practices, traditions, audiences, and expectations with this game that will result in a lot of difficult decisions. Fantasy role playing games of the table-top and pen-and-paper variety tend to be more comfortable creating impossible female forms and squeezing them into chainmail bikinies, whilst fantasy MMORPGs are starting to drift towards utilitarianism, and frankly what looks cool carved in peweter or drawn in a rulebook can look silly in 3-D on your computer screen. The smaller Warhammer tabletop audience might be comfortable with no black people or women in the majority of their game, but what about the larger, more diverse, and more sensitive video game audience that's used to a more diverse cast?

Relic has a great deal of wiggle room. The game seems to be set in some sort of alternate timeline offshoot, meaning that they can make small changes like adding female Knights of the Blazing Sun without forcing GW to release a new 50/50 boxed set for them. The gamer audience is also larger and more likely to fill their coffers, meaning that in design the desire might be to please them. Then again, it'll be the Warhammer players and their zeal and interest in a video game of their hobby that'll drive and push interest and word of mouth that'll attract said video gamers, and if the look and feel diverges too much they could abandone the game, which would hurt its' chances of drawing a large audience.

Any thoughts?

I'm going to guess Empire = European, but all careers will have male and female. Personally, I think Mythic and Gamesworkshop have a very good bead on how to integrate female characters - very little in the way of the Battle Bikini (TM), save for the Slaneeshi and the Witch Elves, but mostly very bad- looking women in full armor bashing things for the glory of Sigmar.

As far as build goes, I'm hopeful that we'll get something much better than WoW's roid-rager-fits all. The Bright Wizard and Witch Hunter seem to be on the skinny side, with Warrior Priests and Knights of the Blazing Sun being more substantial. I'm particularly hopeful that there is better/more variable facial customization than WoW's hideous harelip o' doom.

Probably most Imperials will start out in their late teens - early twenties and end up in their early 40's. As for how to portray that, I'm not sure - size doesn't fit, beards are taken , etc.

[War Weasel]

Maybe depending on your class, you'll have a certain body type that you can adjust to make it more personal with sliders. Not that extreme, though, don't want a Schwartzenager Bright Wizard. Even though that'd make for pretty awesome one-liners. "You're fired."

As far as the races go? I have no idea. I'm not really that up on Empire lore, maybe there'll be some intermingling with skin tones in the character creation department, but I have no idea.

What I can say for sure I know about the Empire is, there'll be a lot of puffy pants.

[Amelung]

Gouvernator Schwarzenegger was the best choice for Conan, but thats the point why such an appearance should not a discussion for warhammer empire.
For Chaos humen a-natural pumped mutated muscles are very ok, for presenting the difference to uncorrupted humen; but also a point why only 'trained' humen like imperial knights should look more like light athletics '40-50' years ago.
So the 'magic' doping for chaos should be visible but please then showing also a good difference... unmutated humen more in a natural for 'swordfighting' trained way. We are all knowing warhammerstyle is a bit 'comic' thats warhammerish, sure. But a warhammerknight is not superman, not conan, and really not gouvernator.

[VictoryOverWar]

this is actually a huge issue to why i dont think ill be playing empire.....i wanted to roleplay a person from Araby. Now i could work around the complete pigeon holed class system but having to create a whit empire character completely limits my options......i have since turned to the High Elves in hopes of seeing something that strikes an intrest in me

[Axxar]

I think there will be options for darker skin color for Empire characters. While I can see the point that the vast majority of Empire citizens will be caucasian, it's also very likely that darker skinned people do exist, and since it might turn off some people from playing the Empire if these options don't exist, I say go for it.

[Cranmer]

We had similar thread (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=173827) a while ago. Closed as you can see, so better mind what you're saying cause ppl are quite over-sensitive about those kind of things...:roll:

[Grandmaster]

The Old World is 'based' on our europe from the 12th-17th century. OK ... let`s say it`s altered abit ... anyway:
The Empire ~ Germany, Austria
Bretonnia ~ France
Estalia ~ Spain (Espania)
Tilea ~ Italy
Kislev ~ Poland, Tzech Republic, Russia ..

You can probably guess, what I want to say with that ...

[Dolash]

Then where oh where is England?

...Oh right, Ulthuan. :D 750-year lifespan FTW!

[Flegler]

Geographically, Albion is the Warhammer analog of Britain and Ireland - some godforsaken islands west of the Empire inhabited by a few tribes of foul-mouthed barbarians that equate to Celts or Saxons or Picts or some foolery like that. Nobody from the civilised parts of the Old World ever goes there, because of the giants.

Thematically however there's a lot of mediaeval England in Bretonnia, specifically the Arthurian myth cycle. They worship the Lady of the bloody Lake, for crying out loud.

[Vikingkingq]

Then where oh where is England?

...Oh right, Ulthuan. :D 750-year lifespan FTW!

As Flegler said, Albion = Britain.

Ulthluan is closer to Atlantis than anything else, in that it's far-off, highly-advanced, and is a ring-shaped island.

[Willstar]

Lustria would then be something like, Brazil?

Naggaroth would be, the lower slums of america? :roll:

[Illya]

Naggaroth would be Canada, actually. Bwahahaha.

..

Sorry 'bout that.

[Grandmaster]

Thematically however there's a lot of mediaeval England in Bretonnia, specifically the Arthurian myth cycle. They worship the Lady of the bloody Lake, for crying out loud.

True ... let`s change that to french people pretending to be britains ... ;)

[Vikingkingq]

True ... let`s change that to french people pretending to be britains ... ;)

...or the fact that the people of Brittany were a Romanized Celtic people like the Britons, who had intermarried and traded with the Britons for hundreds of years, and that both the Britons and the Bretons developed the same Arthurian myth cycle.

[Smachaz]

Or the fact that like 1/4-1/2 of the Arthurian tales were written in France, but the Bretonnians are mostly are probably based on the 100 year war and the Arthurian Legends. but Illiya, your right, Naggaroth is said to be directly linked to North America, not South, so Canada-USA.

haha, North America are the baddies. :(

Canada gets the Chaos Wastes, i mean c'mon where suppose to have the biggest forests in the world...then again there ain't much trees in the northern half.

[firemarX]

Having the Empire's restricted to white skin ..wouldn't feel right. I'm sure there will be options to apply darker skin color.

[Cranmer]

It would feel right actually...:rolleyes:

[Krulltak]

Tileans (Warhammer Italians) are suppose to have a very reddish tanned skin, but they are problably the darkest your gonna get... the Empire is based on The Holy Roman Empire after all :rolleyes:

[Montbrun]

The Old World is 'based' on our europe from the 12th-17th century. OK ... let`s say it`s altered abit ... anyway:
The Empire ~ Germany, Austria
Bretonnia ~ France
Estalia ~ Spain (Espania)
Tilea ~ Italy
Kislev ~ Poland, Tzech Republic, Russia

Actually, about 15th-17th century Europe, with the advent of the widespread use of gunpowder:

Albion - British Isles
Araby - North Africa/Middle East (Umayyads, Mamelukes, etc. - Tomb Kings lie East of Araby)
Border Kingdoms - These lie between Bretonnia to the North and Araby to the South (Strong connections to Bretonnia)
Bretonnia - France (with its confederation of Dukedoms, Baronies, Principalities, etc.)
Cathay - Far Eastern cultures (China, Ming, etc.)
Dark Lands - No real parallel (geographically southeastern Europe)
Eastern Steppes - Mongol Hordes...
Estalia - Iberian Penninsula (Castille, Aragon, Navarre, Portugal)
Ind - Indian Principalities
Kislev - Eastern Europe (Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, Moldavia, Moscovites, etc.)
Lustria - the New World
Nothern Wastes - Norse/Viking Culture (and, of course, Chaos)
Southlands - Central/Southern Africa
The Empire - The Holy Roman Empire
Tilea - Italian Pennisula (Milan, Naples, Sicily, Venice, Papal States, etc.)
Ulthuan - Atlantis

This is my take on the geographic parallels...

Montbrun

[Instant_Karma]

Although one could argue that the Empire (and even their more knightly counterparts the Bretonians) are meant to be manefestations of European society in the Warhammer Fantasy World, if my memory serves, the Emprie does stretch south close to the realms of the Border Princes, Araby etc. I also think that due to trade, political arrangements and other circumstances such as mirgration, that you would end up with humans from around the world having at some point visited and perhaps settling in the Empire. While this is a very realistic and logical way of sneaking in different skin tones into the Empire, it is a bit of a comp out so far as the lore goes (though I think the scenario I just laid out is not unbelievable in and of itself.) There is very little talk of such things in Warhammer, and simply with the way the army is portrayed both in artwork and on the TT, it could be a bit of a shock to some Warhammer players to find a Warrior Priest with black skin, though I'm pretty sure most of them won't blink an eye or care enough to fuss about it. I think if there does end up being a more diverse arrangement in regards to skin color for the Empire, then thats fine. I've been around Warhammer for 8-9 years now, and I think the game itself (particulary the TT) could use some more diversity. If the Empire ends up being varrying shades of caucasian, then I hope in later expansions we can at least Araby or Cathay later to help broaden the human color scheme.

Women is a harder issue. The ideal utilitarian view that MMO's such as WoW portray are nice, but I don'ty think it would work well for WAR (outside of the Witch Elves and any Slaaneshi Daemonettes). The mentions of women who are human and in positions of power are few and far between in the Warhammer world and I think the idea of having a 50/50 split is a bit unrealistic. This might seem like a contradiction postion I am taking after my rant about skin color, but I'm thinking from a historical perspective (as best I can at least) and from this view, it seems much easier to integrate different skin colors vs. gender in the Empire. I know there will most likely be an even 50/50 split, and in the end, I won't have any issue with it. I just think it'll be a bit harder to convince some people that women have achieved some sort of equal footing with men in a land that it the equivalent of High Medieval/Early Reniassance Northern Europe.

Overall, I think that most hardcore Warhammer Players/Fans won't reject the game because it has a more idel/utilitarian look to it as from my own experience many of them already play some MMORPG of some kind and I think it would be accepted as just something that is normal for these types of games.

BTW, I like the list of Warhammer vs. Real World Equivalent Countries that were listed (I didn't even think of Atlantis for the High Elves).

[quacktar]

A couple of points...

First, Female KOBS are totally allowed by the lore. Everyone keeps bringing it up like some kind of point of contention, but they are absolutely allowed by the lore. For some reason though, it doesn't seem like you guys want her to be allowed. KOBS not= real world knights. You see, they are actually a fantasy organization, from a game. Not real. Plus, their rules and regulations and traditions allow for females to join. And there are females in positions of power in the empire. There are female electors, at least two, if my memory serves.

Second, your arguments that "The empire is based on germany... so lets be bigots," are ridiculous. The empire seems to be based on germany, sure. Names and all that. But they are also based on, I don't know, oh right! FANTASY. There are no rules saying that they have to stick to the country's past of bigotry when they base a fantasy kingdom off of it (I don't mean Germany. Every country ever has a past of bigotry). And also, you can't say that there aren't women just because games-workshop doesn't produce female models. Games workshop doesn't produce female models because a large portion of their base are children who want their knights to be manly and their women subservient, like in ye goode olde days. I'm looking at you, old man in parents basement with action figures.

Orcs and goblins are based on Scottish clans. But wait! There were women in ancient scotland. And hey! The scottish clansmen weren't giant and green. Heresy!

I know you guys think you are enforcing the lore when you say, "Empire=europe, so no coloreds and womenfolk allowed," and maybe you are. But there is an effect of the things you say that I don't know if you understand. There is a generation of young men and women who will be playing this game. Imagine them- At the moment, they are about twelve. These young people have been bombarded their whole lives through with damaging advertising, teaching the young men not to respect women and the young women not to respect themselves. They will play this game sixty hours a week, and they will see that the women work in taverns and fields while the men go fight, and it will effect them adversely.

If this game was a historical simulation, based off of ancient france, then my argument would have no legs. But it is a fantasy setting, and fantasy settings are especially potent to the young mind.

I want to put serious time into this game, because I love warhammer, but I don't want it to be part of the g-d d-mned machine that turns young boys into date rapists and young women into porn stars. If that happens, the terrorists have won. For serious.

Hopefully that wasn't too long or offensive. You guys are stand up folks.

[Krulltak]

Even though they usually get burned at the stake, I'm ok with letting female warrior preists playable. What I'm not ok with is making them have hair, when all warrior preists are suppose to shave their heads to hear Sigmar speaking. How come the female zealot is bald and not the Sigmarite preistess? I demand baldness!

[quacktar]

You know Krulltak, I demand baldness too.

I DEMAND IT!

Sometimes its ok for a woman to be bald, Mythic. Every once in a while.

[Montbrun]

A couple of points...

First, Female KOBS are totally allowed by the lore. Everyone keeps bringing it up like some kind of point of contention, but they are absolutely allowed by the lore. For some reason though, it doesn't seem like you guys want her to be allowed. KOBS not= real world knights. You see, they are actually a fantasy organization, from a game. Not real. Plus, their rules and regulations and traditions allow for females to join. And there are females in positions of power in the empire. There are female electors, at least two, if my memory serves.

Second, your arguments that "The empire is based on germany... so lets be bigots," are ridiculous. The empire seems to be based on germany, sure. Names and all that. But they are also based on, I don't know, oh right! FANTASY. There are no rules saying that they have to stick to the country's past of bigotry when they base a fantasy kingdom off of it (I don't mean Germany. Every country ever has a past of bigotry). And also, you can't say that there aren't women just because games-workshop doesn't produce female models. Games workshop doesn't produce female models because a large portion of their base are children who want their knights to be manly and their women subservient, like in ye goode olde days. I'm looking at you, old man in parents basement with action figures.

Orcs and goblins are based on Scottish clans. But wait! There were women in ancient scotland. And hey! The scottish clansmen weren't giant and green. Heresy!

I know you guys think you are enforcing the lore when you say, "Empire=europe, so no coloreds and womenfolk allowed," and maybe you are. But there is an effect of the things you say that I don't know if you understand. There is a generation of young men and women who will be playing this game. Imagine them- At the moment, they are about twelve. These young people have been bombarded their whole lives through with damaging advertising, teaching the young men not to respect women and the young women not to respect themselves. They will play this game sixty hours a week, and they will see that the women work in taverns and fields while the men go fight, and it will effect them adversely.

If this game was a historical simulation, based off of ancient france, then my argument would have no legs. But it is a fantasy setting, and fantasy settings are especially potent to the young mind.

I want to put serious time into this game, because I love warhammer, but I don't want it to be part of the g-d d-mned machine that turns young boys into date rapists and young women into porn stars. If that happens, the terrorists have won. For serious.

Hopefully that wasn't too long or offensive. You guys are stand up folks.

1) Female KotBS would fall into a gray area, but I don't think there would be too much "Lore Heartburn" on this. Now, if they were Bretonnian Knights - no females..

2) Orc clans are not based on Scottish clans. They are based on the British working class "Soccer Hooligans." Dwarfs are based on Scottish Clans.

[Mirander]

2) Orc clans are not based on Scottish clans. They are based on the British working class "Soccer Hooligans." Dwarfs are based on Scottish Clans.

Actually, according to GW, they are based to some degree on the Scots, raiding out of the highlands, and all that. Soccer Hooligans are also probably a source of inspiration, but not the only one.

[quacktar]

Look at squig herder models from warhammer:



They are wearing kilts. (Can't find the screenshot, but its in the army books)

They are using bagpipes.

That is all.

[Krulltak]

Squigpipes actually.There's a Squig for pretty much anything, even a squig corvett.

[quacktar]

Psh. Squigs count as bags.

[Instant_Karma]

You know Krulltak, I demand baldness too.

I DEMAND IT!

Sometimes its ok for a woman to be bald, Mythic. Every once in a while.

Indeed, woman or not; if you're a priest, you're bald.

As for Quacktar being the forum prophet, I's say he's getting his signals from Sigmar confused, but I'm a Witch Hunter, so who knows.:p

[quacktar]

I'm riding on a lucky guess and a label, so it'd be nice if you'd kindly stop questioning my clairvoyance.


:D

[Instant_Karma]

As long as you can predict when the next group of Chaos Spikey Boys are comming to attack, I'll trust your forsight.:p

[quacktar]

My instincts are telling me it'll be the third quarter of 2007...

[Smachaz]

My instincts are telling me it'll be the third quarter of 2007...

So, this summer then? cool. While your at it, could you predict when the Bretonnians are gonna be in? (if you get one wrong, you'll be burned as a false prophet):evil:

[quacktar]

*Shake*
*Shake*
*Shake*

Outlook not good.