Talisman Making is Non-Viable

[blackweb]

I picked up Talisman Making at about level 5 in open beta. I should have picked up magic salvaging but I picked up scavenging. While I have made a lot of coin from Scavenging and found many items that would be useful in Talisman Making, I am unable to make talismans due to a lack of shards or fragments. I do not find enough items that can be salvaged to give to someone with magic salvaging. I gave several to a friend to salvage but did not get enough items back to make even one Talisman.

From what I can tell, Talisman making is a non-viable crafting profession. It is just too hard to get mats. Requiring two gathering professions makes it impossible to level Talisman making at low levels. What is worse, given the reported high failure rate of TM and the fact that the Talismans expire after a few hours, I see no point in pursuing the profession.

In order to make TM viable the following changes need to be made:

1. Imho, all crafting professions should be made self-sufficient, ie. a single player should able to get everything they need to level their finished goods profession with a single harvesting skill. Forcing artificial interdependence of crafting professions was tried in EQ2 and failed miserably.

2. Talismans should be permanent, not temporary item buffs. Making Talismans expire is just silly.

[Archiver]

I picked up Talisman Making at about level 5 in open beta. I should have picked up magic salvaging but I picked up scavenging. While I have made a lot of coin from Scavenging and found many items that would be useful in Talisman Making, I am unable to make talismans due to a lack of shards or fragments. I do not find enough items that can be salvaged to give to someone with magic salvaging. I gave several to a friend to salvage but did not get enough items back to make even one Talisman.

From what I can tell, Talisman making is a non-viable crafting profession. It is just too hard to get mats. Requiring two gathering professions makes it impossible to level Talisman making at low levels. What is worse, given the reported high failure rate of TM and the fact that the Talismans expire after a few hours, I see no point in pursuing the profession.

In order to make TM viable the following changes need to be made:

2. Imho, all crafting professions should be made self-sufficient, ie. a single player should able to get everything they need to level their finished goods profession with a single harvesting skill. Forcing artificial interdependence of crafting professions was tried in EQ2 and failed miserably.

2. Talismans should be permanent, not temporary item buffs. Making Talismans expire is just silly.

Yes and no.

Here is what I mean:

Talisman making is not overly viable I agree with you there. I have it coupled with magical item salvage and have a ton of essences, but have to buy the rest of the mats. Also, even with this combination of profs, talisman making is still hard to level.

I can see the need for multiple gathering professions at higher levels, that kinda makes sense for a bit of a learning curve, cool I get that, but at low levels, keep it simple.

As to your second point I only half agree with you. I see the duration as perhaps a bit strange, but when you look at it from the perspective of the developers wanting to keep the game dynamic it sorta makes sense I think. You should be switching your talismans anyway depending on the situation at hand right? No maybe we just see this two different ways, so be it, just my view and all that.

[GoodIdea]

I completely agree with the OP.

I've witnessed that people are at a complete loss on what to make of talisman making in OB. It's not intuitive and it's not explained in game very well.

The fact that you need 2 gathering professions makes it very painful when first levelling up. MOST people will not have access to an AH to either trade or find items they need for their crafting skills. Maybe the first few levels of talisman making should be simple so people know what to do, since an AH won't even be available.

Which reminds me, the filtering on the AH isn't working that well.

Edit: Some talismans are permanent.

Getting fragments or even curios are very rare considering that you need them to buff your gear every 2-8 hours.

I don't know, from my perspective, the crafting in WAR just isn't working for most people, it's kind of disappointing. It's not explained very well and it's confusing.

[blackweb]

Yes and no.

Here is what I mean:

Talisman making is not overly viable I agree with you there. I have it coupled with magical item salvage and have a ton of essences, but have to buy the rest of the mats. Also, even with this combination of profs, talisman making is still hard to level.

I can see the need for multiple gathering professions at higher levels, that kinda makes sense for a bit of a learning curve, cool I get that, but at low levels, keep it simple.

As to your second point I only half agree with you. I see the duration as perhaps a bit strange, but when you look at it from the perspective of the developers wanting to keep the game dynamic it sorta makes sense I think. You should be switching your talismans anyway depending on the situation at hand right? No maybe we just see this two different ways, so be it, just my view and all that.

If the Talismans did not expire, I could live with the difficulty of the TM profession. As it is, working so hard to make temporary items seems pointless.

[Varking]

The stronger talismans do not expire.

[blackweb]

The stronger talismans do not expire.

Please define "stronger".

[Varking]

Please define "stronger".
Higher level and make it to the top of the "strength" meter. If you notice, the first ones you can make are all stuck on the bottom of the meter. The top of the line ones will not expire and will be permanent.

[Tierce]

you have to use magical salvaging on green quality or better items to receive fragments. I picked up Talisman crafting and magical salvaging yesterday on the new character I created, looted 2 extra green items, salvaged them both, collected a strength fragment from one and a wounds fragment from the other, both of these were the stats I chose to extract from the item. I used each of these to create a Talisman (created 2 Talismans). You must not be trying to get fragments correctly. You do not get them from the ruined equipment type items, these items are salvaged for essences, echoing essence, whispering essence, and magical essence.

This skill is viable, you just aren't using is correctly.

[Wayside]

you have to use magical salvaging on green quality or better items to receive fragments. I picked up Talisman crafting and magical salvaging yesterday on the new character I created, looted 2 extra green items, salvaged them both, collected a strength fragment from one and a wounds fragment from the other, both of these were the stats I chose to extract from the item. I used each of these to create a Talisman (created 2 Talismans). You must not be trying to get fragments correctly. You do not get them from the ruined equipment type items, these items are salvaged for essences, echoing essence, whispering essence, and magical essence.

This skill is viable, you just aren't using is correctly.

He's talking about when it's not paired with salvaging, but with scavenging. Scavenging gives you some necessary components for talisman making (That are worlds better than the crap you can buy at the merchant affecting the overall power of the talisman) But can't get fragments. In order to get all the components necessary you have to do salvaging and have other people make the other components for you. You need cultivators to make you gold weed, scavengers to get you the good curio's, etc...

[Tierce]

He's talking about when it's not paired with salvaging, but with scavenging. Scavenging gives you some necessary components for talisman making (That are worlds better than the crap you can buy at the merchant affecting the overall power of the talisman) But can't get fragments. In order to get all the components necessary you have to do salvaging and have other people make the other components for you. You need cultivators to make you gold weed, scavengers to get you the good curio's, etc...

That still does not make it non-viable. Needing components from multiple other players is how you create a true player driven economy. This complex supply chain will cause a need for interaction between players to buy, sell, and trade. Systems where a player can 100% supply all the needed resources to his 1 crafting skill with 1 gathering skill are boring and leads to the economy being nothing more than people selling materials at auction so other players can make an end user item for themselves. This is not a real marketplace.

Mythic has created a system that is complex and challenging, sure they need a few tweaks, but the overall design is good.

[Anathemize]

I think the whole point of the crafting system is make it so you need someone else's gathering to level. If you could get everything yourself then the economy would suffer. Although this is not a perfect solution because people will jsut level an alt with the other gathering and send it between toons but at least WAR is trying to make the economy work correctly.

[LawLessOne]

I think the whole point of the crafting system is make it so you need someone else's gathering to level. If you could get everything yourself then the economy would suffer. Although this is not a perfect solution because people will jsut level an alt with the other gathering and send it between toons but at least WAR is trying to make the economy work correctly.

The problem is that it is too hard to get the basic components to level up your skill. No one is going to pay a lot for your level 1 component and therefore you are not going to see a lot on the market. Couple this with there are just too many components and not enough bag space to hold them all. No one is going to take all those level 1 components to the AH when they can just vendor them, clear their bag space, and continue to have fun.

[Wayside]

That still does not make it non-viable. Needing components from multiple other players is how you create a true player driven economy. This complex supply chain will cause a need for interaction between players to buy, sell, and trade. Systems where a player can 100% supply all the needed resources to his 1 crafting skill with 1 gathering skill are boring and leads to the economy being nothing more than people selling materials at auction so other players can make an end user item for themselves. This is not a real marketplace.

Mythic has created a system that is complex and challenging, sure they need a few tweaks, but the overall design is good.

Well, it depends on your idea of viable, mine and the OP's version of viable includes being able to be self-sufficient. For me at least to the extent of being able to level your skill. I would love to see dependancy on other players for particularly cool and powerful items, but the skill should be viably levelable with no outside help.

[Varking]

The problem is that it is too hard to get the basic components to level up your skill. No one is going to pay a lot for your level 1 component and therefore you are not going to see a lot on the market. Couple this with there are just too many components and not enough bag space to hold them all. No one is going to take all those level 1 components to the AH when they can just vendor them, clear their bag space, and continue to have fun.
Speak for yourself, I got talisman making to over 40 in one play session just from AoE farming the uncrowded tier 1 PQs when my character was 20.

[ZaiRoX]

I think alot could be fixed by simply adding a auctionhouse/NPC to the T1-T2 area. Maybe even a banker.

That said, I am abit worried that people will just level up another character with the missing gatherskill. I really think they should lock each account to 1gathering/1tradeskill for each server. So you can't simply supply yourself by using alts unless you buy another account.

But I know that this will never happen.

[Kurugi]

I didn't realize you could salvage green gear etc. I'm sitting at like lvl 2 salvaging because broken items don't seem to drop for me very often >.<. Can you salvage *any* green item? Like green seeds/roots etc. or just broken items/gear?

[Bohrdog]

I just think its to hard to level up when you are starting out. you should be able to get the most basic supplies from a vender to skill up with. I have been working on it for 2 days and only have my skill up to 4 because you dont get a fragment everytime you salvage an item.

[Xipetotec]

I didn't realize you could salvage green gear etc. I'm sitting at like lvl 2 salvaging because broken items don't seem to drop for me very often >.<. Can you salvage *any* green item? Like green seeds/roots etc. or just broken items/gear?


You can salvage any green or higher item. Blues etc. You can not salvage seeds or other tradeskill items. Old weapons armor etc. Hope that helps some

[Varking]

I didn't realize you could salvage green gear etc. I'm sitting at like lvl 2 salvaging because broken items don't seem to drop for me very often >.<. Can you salvage *any* green item? Like green seeds/roots etc. or just broken items/gear?
It has to be armor or weapons. Green seeds or other green crafting materials can not be salvaged.

[LawLessOne]

I have had some green armor I could not salvage. No error or anything, it just wouldnt salvage. Other items, like unrepaired armor, it says 'you cannot salvage that'. I even held onto one such piece that it wouldnt work on just to be sure it wasnt a level or skill issue. I just couldnt salvage it at all.

Item may be bugged or something. As I remeber it was for an Orc Shamen and I wasnt one and it dropped in the chaos area.

[Tierce]

Well, it depends on your idea of viable, mine and the OP's version of viable includes being able to be self-sufficient. For me at least to the extent of being able to level your skill. I would love to see dependancy on other players for particularly cool and powerful items, but the skill should be viably levelable with no outside help.

Why should the leveling be any different than the end-game (max skill level)? Won't you be creating valuable Talismans all along the way? IMO, self-sufficient does not go along with the concept of MMORPGs. Why wouldn't we want to create the player driven economy from the start?

Something else to think about is that this game unlike many that have come before has tried to integrate the content you normally don't experience until the endgame into the experience from the very beginning. I see this as a trend with MMORPGs in general going forward. Based on that, I see no reason to have to wait to have a player driven economy with a complex supply chain when I can have it right away from the first day I start playing. I don't see it as boring mindnumbing leveling up to max level and then the fun. Why not let the fun start from the moment you first log in?

[Swanea]

I believe any RvR gear cannot be salvaged. And some PQ stuff too, I think.

[Tierce]

I have had some green armor I could not salvage. No error or anything, it just wouldnt salvage. Other items, like unrepaired armor, it says 'you cannot salvage that'. I even held onto one such piece that it wouldnt work on just to be sure it wasnt a level or skill issue. I just couldnt salvage it at all.

Item may be bugged or something. As I remeber it was for an Orc Shamen and I wasnt one and it dropped in the chaos area.

I believe this has been purposely implemented, it's only the lowest level items that appear to consistently not be able to be salvaged. This is just like the fact that NPCs at levels below Chapter 2 cannot be scavenged or butchered. I think that since the content for crafting and gathering starts at tier 2, all items and MOBs at level ranges below tier 2 do not have this functionality turned on.

[LawLessOne]

I believe this has been purposely implemented, it's only the lowest level items that appear to consistently not be able to be salvaged. This is just like the fact that NPCs at levels below Chapter 2 cannot be scavenged or butchered. I think that since the content for crafting and gathering starts at tier 2, all items and MOBs at level ranges below tier 2 do not have this functionality turned on.

I had not thought along those lines but it makes sense.

[Kurugi]

You can salvage any green or higher item. Blues etc. You can not salvage seeds or other tradeskill items. Old weapons armor etc. Hope that helps some

Yeah thanks. I just feel retarded cuz I'm sitting at rank 14 and have been selling all my old equipment and gear I get that I can't use when I could have been salvaging it >.<

Oh well, I'll get a fresh start during headstart :p

[vazzaroth]

I agree with the people saying that you should be self-sufficient to level it, but only while getting out of the super low levels. I don't think you should be totally self sufficient all the way to max, only needing help for hard things, then you have WoW's system. Decent basics, but the implementation was the problem, and WAR fixes alot of it.

See, when needing other resources is the rare exception, it messes up the economy, and willingness of players to sell their things. At least to other players.

[nennafir]

Non self-suffcient crafting just makes it so very few people do crafting. It will result in a failure for crafting, not a "player generated economy". As a previous poster said, just look at EQ2. It started out as this vaunted thing where you needed all sorts of people to make something and it took several steps, then got simplified to a system where you could make it yourself but it still took several steps, then got simiplified to a make it yourself in one step.

I am honestly disappointed with the whole crafting system.

They said they were going for "innovative" but it just doesn't seem at all innovative to me.

I think they should have gone for some actually fun mini-game, a la Vanguard's diplomacy system or something. You could quite easily take some puzzle game (Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo, Puyo Puyo, etc) and modify it to actually get a fun crafting system. It's too bad people aren't going that route.

[Varking]

The reason people typically do not go that route is because it doesn't reek of mass appeal. Not a ton of casual players look forward to taking 2 hours gathering materials and then spending 4 minutes to craft a single item. When Vanguard first launched I spent two hours gathering materials. After that I spent around 4-6 minutes per item trying to make them all grade A or higher. Casual players are the biggest source of income for an MMO since they are the masses. The people who can play for 4-8 hours a night are the minority ( I fit in the 6-8 hour minority group ). People like us typically do not care because we will get it done no matter what. People who can only play for an hour or two a night likely do not want to spend roughly 20% of their night in game watching the screen create items.

I loved the old EQ system, and I loved the Vanguard system but I do realize that this isn't a system that appealed to most players.

[PhotriusPyrelus]

Speak for yourself, I got talisman making to over 40 in one play session just from AoE farming the uncrowded tier 1 PQs when my character was 20.



Therein lies the problem; the design goal for the Crafting system has been specifically stated to be non-grindy, and presently Talisman-making, or more particularly, (Magical) Salvage, fails in that regard.

The only problem I see with the crafting right now is that (Magical) Salvage *needs* to supply one shard for *EVERY* (or damned near every) attempt, and none of this 'attempt failed' crap. *No* other gathering skill has a chance to fail, it was a silly idea. Yes, I realize 'failed' attempts still give you some goods, but it's usually a very small amount of the basic essence. Otherwise, I think the crafting is quite well done. Apothecary, Cultivation, Scavenging and Butchering (I assume, since I have not played with butchery) are all well done, and work well to create a crafting system of relative self-insufficiency (good for promoting social interaction to obtain the parts for your craft you cannot yourself harvest).

I probably enjoyed Cultivation/Apothecary most, but only because I didn't have to spend the extra time 're-looting' the monster after every kill. Of course, I did occasionally forget my growing plant, so I suppose I have a very minor gripe about needing a better "Alert! your plant is in the next phase!".



I think they should have gone for some actually fun mini-game, a la Vanguard's diplomacy system or something. You could quite easily take some puzzle game (Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo, Puyo Puyo, etc) and modify it to actually get a fun crafting system. It's too bad people aren't going that route.


Mmmm, mini-games. I don't really understand why most MMOs don't use mini games for things like crafting, or certain other things which I cannot recall (but I know I've thought "this would be much more interesting if it had an associated mini-game). Probably goes back to balancing and not wanting to hear people "Boohoo! My Sprocket-making craft skills mini games are SO MUCH HARDER than the Cogs-making craft skill! Nerf Cog-making!"

[Varking]

I suppose I have a very minor gripe about needing a better "Alert! your plant is in the next phase!
Have you seen this addon?

http://war.curse.com/downloads/details/13578/

FlowerPower helps to remind you to add water to, add nutrients to, and pick your plants when Cultivating.
REQUIRES LibSlash (http://war.curse.com/downloads/details/13510/) to use.


Not exactly sure what it really does since I didn't play with cultivation for more than an hour so I never felt the need to test it out even though I have tested just about every mod out there so far to give feedback to the person who made them, I imagine it enhances the text or makes a small sound when each phase is ready. Or it does what the killing blow mod does and it writes the text on your screen where you choose in big bold red letters to make it obvious for you, and it fades after 2 seconds.

[WhiteZombie]

add green curios and elements to PQ reward please :) theres bottles and watering cans and junk for other profs, but none for talisman making.

[lotharic]

I think some of the interdependency problems will be mitigated when the game goes live and more guilds are set up. Still, LOTRO had forced interdependency, so most of us created alts to handle the crafting rather than relying on friends to boil hides for us.

[Typoko]

Hi!

I see this skill quite profitable and needed. Not profit as in money but profit as in actually using the slots that your gear has from 1 to 40. I guess most of the players just ignore the slots atm, but they really pack some power in them. Hitting 4 talismans with +2 strength on them gives you 8 more strength at low levels and it's quite much. Also the timer is not an issue at tier 1 and i guess not eaven at tier 2. You will be getting better gear before the timer runs out. 8 hours of ingame time is a really long time.

As i see this profession it lets you stack up slotted items and have versaility. You can have different kind of gear by just changing some of the talismans. wounds for rvr and str for pve or something like that.

[Tierce]

The reason people typically do not go that route is because it doesn't reek of mass appeal. Not a ton of casual players look forward to taking 2 hours gathering materials and then spending 4 minutes to craft a single item. When Vanguard first launched I spent two hours gathering materials. After that I spent around 4-6 minutes per item trying to make them all grade A or higher. Casual players are the biggest source of income for an MMO since they are the masses. The people who can play for 4-8 hours a night are the minority ( I fit in the 6-8 hour minority group ). People like us typically do not care because we will get it done no matter what. People who can only play for an hour or two a night likely do not want to spend roughly 20% of their night in game watching the screen create items.

I loved the old EQ system, and I loved the Vanguard system but I do realize that this isn't a system that appealed to most players.

This is what happens when there is no player driven economy, you have to farm everything yourself because the market is inefficient or non-existent due to lack of participants. The design of this system of interdependency and limited number of skills able to be held by one character will lead to players actively buying and selling. You won't have to spend hours farming materials, you will spend a little time at the auction house buying what you need and listing up what you have to sell, maybe a little time advertising in chat. Find someone who can supply what you need and form a business relationship with them so that you can save time and just go straight to them for what you need.

I just can't stress enough how self-sufficient and MMORPGs do not go together. All the masses of casual players are not picking up an MMORRG so they can experience the same solo content that they can get in a single player RPG. If players are not required to interact with others in the economy, they won't do so, then it will quickly get boring, and then crafting will be some forgotten mechanic that nobody really cared about.

[Kyrt]

I believe any RvR gear cannot be salvaged. And some PQ stuff too, I think.

This is incorrect. I've leveled my Talisman Making into the 60's by purchasing different RR gear boots (lowest monetary cost) from the Renown Vendors and Salvaging them. I am 99% sure being able to do this is unintended, but I was able to get a great look at TM.

As for the interdependency debate....

Artificial interdependency will easily be circumvented by leveling alts to produce the materials you can't get on your own. If mailing/transfer between characters is restricted I assure you that second accounts will be opened in order to facilitate the same effect. Never underestimate the motivated crafter in his quest to lower overhead cost.

[Tierce]

Artificial interdependency will easily be circumvented by leveling alts to produce the materials you can't get on your own. If mailing/transfer between characters is restricted I assure you that second accounts will be opened in order to facilitate the same effect. Never underestimate the motivated crafter in his quest to lower overhead cost.

This will always be true in any game, the hardcore players will spend the time and/or money to have multiple characters/accounts and circumvent player interdependency in every scenario. However, as has already been pointed out, most players have limited amounts of time and will not do this. The only scenario that leads these kinds of players to feel they have to also do what the hardcore have done is when interdependency is minimal or completely absent from the equation, and thus the market is absent of participants and each player has to individually gather everything because no one is there to sell it to them for a competitive price.

I have played games with all different kinds of economies, and the ones that had the highest level of interdependency and variety had the most active player driven economies and the most specialization by players into each skill. Did those games still have those hardcore people with 8 accounts running an army of crafters to cover every niche of the market? Yes, but the average player used the market to get the supplies they needed and prices were very competitive.

[Kyrt]

I agree, definitely. There will people hardcores that do what they do. Those people aside, I am referring to even the middle of the road players. Games I've played in the past with great interdependency were games where leveling an alt was very time consuming (EQ) or it was impossible to have an alt (SWG 1 character per server w/o Jedi unlock). Especially in early SWG, crafters were forced to protect their reputations and make contracts with resource gatherers. In games like Warhammer and Warcraft where max level is 1-2 months away even mediorcre players can have 3-4 max level crafters on their account inside of a year.

On the point that interdependency is a good thing...

Abso-freakin'-lutely. I am certainly not debating that point. I personally want the social interaction. What am I saying is that the majority of people in MMO's today do NOT like interdependency. They would rather just do things themselves. When it's within reason to be self-sufficient, they will.

[Helias]

The problem, as I see it, isnt interdependance. I think that is good. The problem is that only one gathering skill works with talisman making.

It is my experience that items that can be salvaged are a lot more rare then the curios that can be found from scavenging. As a result there will be a large imbalance between the two on the AH and so everyone who salvages fragments will be using them to level up their talisman making skill.


In other words, if you want to make talismans you must be a salvager, scavengers just wont be viable because the supply of fragments will be low/extremely expensive.

[Burney]

I completely agree with the OP.

I've witnessed that people are at a complete loss on what to make of talisman making in OB. It's not intuitive and it's not explained in game very well.

The fact that you need 2 gathering professions makes it very painful when first levelling up. MOST people will not have access to an AH to either trade or find items they need for their crafting skills. Maybe the first few levels of talisman making should be simple so people know what to do, since an AH won't even be available.

Which reminds me, the filtering on the AH isn't working that well.

Edit: Some talismans are permanent.

Getting fragments or even curios are very rare considering that you need them to buff your gear every 2-8 hours.

I don't know, from my perspective, the crafting in WAR just isn't working for most people, it's kind of disappointing. It's not explained very well and it's confusing.

Its working fine people just cant figure it out. Its more than just have said items and click. You have to put the Round Peg in the Round hole! ITS HARD!

Talismans expiring. This tells me that end game Talismans might be very powerful. Thus creating Some balance by making them expire. BUT making you Very powerful for those 2 weeks or w/e. If entry level Talismans can last up to 2 days I expect end game to last weeks or so. At least. I like it. If you think about it it helps the TM market. You dont just "finish" your set then sit on it. It creates an ongoing need for Talisman Makers. I like it!

[Zyxtl]

The reason people typically do not go that route is because it doesn't reek of mass appeal. Not a ton of casual players look forward to taking 2 hours gathering materials and then spending 4 minutes to craft a single item. When Vanguard first launched I spent two hours gathering materials. After that I spent around 4-6 minutes per item trying to make them all grade A or higher. Casual players are the biggest source of income for an MMO since they are the masses. The people who can play for 4-8 hours a night are the minority ( I fit in the 6-8 hour minority group ). People like us typically do not care because we will get it done no matter what. People who can only play for an hour or two a night likely do not want to spend roughly 20% of their night in game watching the screen create items.

I loved the old EQ system, and I loved the Vanguard system but I do realize that this isn't a system that appealed to most players.

Absolutely spot on and might i add that the casual players are the ones directly responsible for the dumbing down of the crafting systems in MMO's. I really think a complicated system is the way to go and the casuals be damned. If you want instant gratification go pickup one of the numerous MMO's out there today that hand you everything with little effort. The onyl thing we as players are entitled to is equal access to the servers toplay on. After that it's up to you to make what you can and want of your character.

We all know that knocking off WoW is never going to happen unless blizzard totally drops the ball. So why not return to the old school ways of leveling and crafting systems that we remember back in the old days? I myself don't have a huge amount of time to play but even i can respect a system that requires you to take time and feel some accomplishment in advancing a Tradskill. Where is the joy and pride in maxing out a tradeskill in a few hours or even days? Making it more difficult actually PROMOTES an economy. Imagine the world toady if we were all doctors and lawyers ans architects or whatever. Diversity and need to seek out professionals drives an economy.

[Trennet]

I have a Rank 21. His Talisman Making is up to 33 and has cost me 15g to get there from buying renown gear to Salvage; this is alongside Salvaging every possible item I get or grow out of PLUS having multiple friends send me any greens/blues they find. In addition, at Rank 21, Talisman making takes 13-35 bag/bank slots (depending on the variety of components) -- and that's excluding how each Talisman takes up another slot (why don't they stack?); it's insane how much space it requires -- you certainly can't easily carry and craft on the go, you have to sit at your bank.

It's not viable to level Talisman Making alongside your character: it costs way to much. I guess it's designed to be picked up when rich at 40?



On another note: I, personally, hate how interdependent the crafting professions are. Crafting becomes a painful timesink when have the bulk of your crafting time is spent traveling to the AH and/or searching for other crafters to make components your craft requires.

[Dacian Falx]

Just a quick comment and agreement with the other posters saying how nonviable the TM system is.

It's the only professions that I know of that requires 4 dependence professions if you want to excel at it.

Salvaging for Fragments and Essences
Scavenging for Curios and Gold Dust
Cultivating for Goldweed
Apothecary for Gold Essence (Goldweed + Gold Dust)

[leinad]

In order to make TM viable the following changes need to be made:

2. Imho, all crafting professions should be made self-sufficient, ie. a single player should able to get everything they need to level their finished goods profession with a single harvesting skill. Forcing artificial interdependence of crafting professions was tried in EQ2 and failed miserably.

2. Talismans should be permanent, not temporary item buffs. Making Talismans expire is just silly.

Omg... wow has done too munch damage to the mmo comunity.

So why u dont ask to GMs to get the better talismans directly? that will be more fun isnt?

Economy in war is crap because u dont loose any item and u even dont need to repair, so this economy dont have a cycle, so is not a economy, call it as u want.

So they make some stuff in low levels not permanet to move a little bit the economy and dont have a ton of useless stuff almost free into the AH because noone need it and ppl come here to whine about it, its sad.

And u are claiming for self suficient crafting for interact even less with other ppl and make AH just useless like in most of the mmo kiddie games lol... so why we dont put a 3 lives count and a "game over" when u loose them and "insert coin" for play again? one joystick and 3 buttons must be enought to play mmos dont think so?

[Fringe]

Player interdependency in crafting is a must. If there were none, and crafting were made too simple, the crafted items quickly become commonplace and worthless. It also keeps all the professions important in the overall scheme, giving each crafting profession a way to earn coin along the way.

I've seen it done both ways, and interdependence is necessary or crafting quickly becomes ruled by craftBots.

This yearning for a simplistic crafting system is nothing more than impatience and short-sightedness I think.

[TheAsmo]

I just made a bunch of alts, ran them out to Chapter 2 area and got them all trained differently, which ever one I'm playing, I just mail the appropriate loot to the respective toon. I mean your going to do this eventually anyways right? well I have and many others I know have, only this will be the 1st time I'm doing it from the start instead of after the endgame. This will let me make use of everything instead of just vendoring it all while leveling, not to mention a chance to try out all the aspects of crafting/gathering to see which ones I actually wanna stick with.

I was a little upset cause I didn't have time during OB to really test anything other than making pots to about skill 100ish, but it was more about learning what to expect and exploring different classes.

[Volumax]

TheAsmo is on to a good idea. Roll a toon with 2 gatherer (salvaging/ scavaging) & a 2nd toon with Talisman making/ Alchemy. That should cover all the mats needed for talismans. You're going to roll more than one toon anyway.

[Durkka]

TheAsmo is on to a good idea. Roll a toon with 2 gatherer (salvaging/ scavaging) & a 2nd toon with Talisman making/ Alchemy. That should cover all the mats needed for talismans. You're going to roll more than one toon anyway.

You can't. 1 Gathering prof and 1 Crafting prof only.

[Nerissa]

Mythic has created a system that is complex and challenging, sure they need a few tweaks, but the overall design is good.


It's also an absolute pain in the rear for anyone not having their guild power them up. TM is much worse than Apoth in this respect since Apoth draws from cult/butcher, and doesn't really require an intermediary. TM requires an Apoth, a Scavenger, and a Salvager at the very least. If you want to make anything permanent you'll probably need a Cultivator to grow the good kind of goldweed.


One profession pulls from 4. The other crafting prof pulls from 2. This other crafting prof is also many orders of magnitude easier to level.


Talisman Making needs to either give out more skill per craft or materials need to be made more widely available because right now I outright pity anyone not in a guild trying to level TM. It's going to cost them a lot of money or time to do it.

[SagaSainto]

i have this weird feeling that tells me TM will grant the best items out of crafting. guess that at the amazingly high levels a TM can produce permanent talismans with uberleet bonus

that alone is enough reason to make TM the most challenging prof.

Since Apoths are more common than salt water and the skill is fairly easy to level,sooner than later even the best potions will become a rather easy to get item for everybody,while the best talismans will separate good gear from godly gear,and make some hardworking players rise above the crowd.

and any guild helping a TM going thru this horrendous process will guarantee all its members a constant supply of excellent talismans,and will represent a gold mine selling the "not-so-amazing-but-great-nonetheless" ones they have spare in a market starving for good talismans.

and what guild doesnt want exactly that? :rolleyes:

[Lantash]

Salvaging ive found is more annoying to level up than Talisman making. Crunching up that item that wouldve sold for a decent amount only to not even get a gain or fragment frustrates the bejezus out of me. Also you cant Salvage belts or cloaks, or other accesories, which is ugh.

[Volumax]

You can't. 1 Gathering prof and 1 Crafting prof only.
DOH! I stand corrected.

In WoW, enchanting came with the skill needed to make it's basic mats (disenchant). TM should be the same. i.e., make magical salvaging a part of Talisman making. Much more reasonble than making it dependent on all gathering skills for every component. And magic salvage is of no use to apothecary. I'd really appreciate any feedback on this idea. :)

[Ymir]

Artificial interdependency will easily be circumvented by leveling alts to produce the materials you can't get on your own. If mailing/transfer between characters is restricted I assure you that second accounts will be opened in order to facilitate the same effect. Never underestimate the motivated crafter in his quest to lower overhead cost.

I'm not certain what you mean by the word artificial in that sentence, but I do know one thing.

You must wait 20 seconds between sending mails. Unless the cost of materials is way out of proportion, I'd be better off using that 20 seconds to kill mobs for cash to buy them.

[Valks]

To be honest - having wheezed my way around all creation finding the hedge wizard (hiding under a tree behind a building...lovely..no wonder I missed the the first time through. Hate having to resort to things like WARDB)

Finally got the mats together and managed to squeeze out my first talisman...looked at it...looked at the stats...looked at the talismans I have found as loot that are waiting for slots...and binned the bloody profession.

Waste of time unless you have a large guild of people willing to give you a constant influx of items. Otherwise, forget about it. All you will get is poor and pissed off.

[sevensided]

I'm not certain what you mean by the word artificial in that sentence, but I do know one thing.

You must wait 20 seconds between sending mails. Unless the cost of materials is way out of proportion, I'd be better off using that 20 seconds to kill mobs for cash to buy them.


two words:

Guild Vault.

I have a Shaman with Salvaging and TM, and a Chosen with Scavaging and Apothecary. Both in the same guild. When I need to transfer mats to make talismans, I use the guild vault.

[BigBadB]

One profession pulls from 4. The other crafting prof pulls from 2. This other crafting prof is also many orders of magnitude easier to level.
One profession creates one-shot, short-term effects that have cooldowns. The other creates long-term modifiers that stack.

I'm not saying that TM couldn't use some work, just that there's nothing inherently broken about one profession being slower, harder and more expensive than the other, as they produce different things.

[Rizem]

exactly, as proved by this forum, some people like a challenge and some clearly don't

[Caldenfor]

I am a talisman making magus.

Caldenfor

[AngelofWar87]

I enjoy the challenge. MS is at 75, TM at 50, only spent about 8 gold which I got back after I sold some of the blues I found wandering around the world. I think the system is fine as is; just like the beta, early speculation before we have enough of the user base maxed out isn't a determination for a broken profession.

[Bait]

To be honest - having wheezed my way around all creation finding the hedge wizard (hiding under a tree behind a building...lovely..no wonder I missed the the first time through. Hate having to resort to things like WARDB)

Finally got the mats together and managed to squeeze out my first talisman...looked at it...looked at the stats...looked at the talismans I have found as loot that are waiting for slots...and binned the bloody profession.

Waste of time unless you have a large guild of people willing to give you a constant influx of items. Otherwise, forget about it. All you will get is poor and pissed off.

Because Rank 2 is the pinnacle of talisman making and clearly a good basis of judgment of the whole TM profession.

I'm glad people are too lazy to level it up. I've probably spent more time working on TM than I have questing... and I can see it paying off with all these people saying they've given it up.

[chivo]

That still does not make it non-viable. Needing components from multiple other players is how you create a true player driven economy. This complex supply chain will cause a need for interaction between players to buy, sell, and trade. Systems where a player can 100% supply all the needed resources to his 1 crafting skill with 1 gathering skill are boring and leads to the economy being nothing more than people selling materials at auction so other players can make an end user item for themselves. This is not a real marketplace.

Mythic has created a system that is complex and challenging, sure they need a few tweaks, but the overall design is good.


True.
However, this system can introduce failure at the profession level through the fact that one profession, or many professions, require items from several other gathering skills.
The potential for failure is when there are not enough players using the other tradeskills to help support the other professions that rely on those trade skills.

This is a potentially crippling possibility.

[chivo]

Speak for yourself, I got talisman making to over 40 in one play session just from AoE farming the uncrowded tier 1 PQs when my character was 20.


emphasis mine.

but look at what you just wrote.
So TM is "viable" at lvl 20 after a serious farming sessions??

[Mephane]

As to your second point I only half agree with you. I see the duration as perhaps a bit strange, but when you look at it from the perspective of the developers wanting to keep the game dynamic it sorta makes sense I think. You should be switching your talismans anyway depending on the situation at hand right? No maybe we just see this two different ways, so be it, just my view and all that.

The problem is here, unlike Apothecary and potions, the talisman slots on your equipment deduct from their overall stat bonuses. So if you get that nice 'blue' hat with 2 talisman slots, if you are not so eager to re-buy/-craft/-farm talismans, that hat will be worse than your previous 'green' one because instead of a potentially +20 stats in temporary talismans, it gives you like 10 right away, ready to go, no farming required.

Temporary talismans would be fine if they would work like WoW's enchantments, i.e. add on top of the already maxed out stat bonuses for that item level and quality, instead of deducting from it!

[blackweb]

I took up TM with Salvaging on live. I was unable to get past TM 25 until into my late teens. I got to TM 60 and the skill-ups have stopped. I am stuck at 64, my character level is 23.

[Infares]

Speak for yourself, I got talisman making to over 40 in one play session just from AoE farming the uncrowded tier 1 PQs when my character was 20.
Getting it over 25 isn't the problem. Without a Scavenger you're not going much higher than that without buying from auction. You need the higher level Curios and Gold Essences as much as you need the higher level Fragments and Essences.

[Waterostrich]

@ OP

Part of what makes this game so unique is the crafting. Every profession is reliant on every other profession. It gives value to all crafting choices. If every profession were self-sufficient you'd see a significantly weaker economy (when everyone can make money off of everyone then everyone has more money, or at least that potential exists.)

As for the duration, I love it. It keeps our profession in demand, always. The timers are /played and you begin to create 2d and 5d around skill level 25-50. At that low level you'll replace your armor soon anyways. Even at level 40 so what? You need to re-talisman your gear once every 5 days (assuming you play 8 hours a day with a 5 day talisman.) The demand will remain high creating an inelastic product, keeping our prices high, and our profits keeping us happy.

I see this as the most profitable profession, and assuming that people more or less steer clear of it bc of its apparent complexity and expense, then those of us who continue with it will find ourselves with the title "Made."

(as a note, I sold a +14 wounds permanent talisman for 25g within 4 hours of posting on the AH, leaving me to believe that as our permanent talismans become better and better we will be able to sell for 50-100+ gold per.)

[Rizem]

I still don't get the link between viability, profitability and the ability to level a skill without needing to buy anything/put any effort in.

In my mind leveling a craft skill would usualy be non profitable, take a lot of time and effort and you would need to buy/source items from other players.

[PImpslapper]

I still don't get the link between viability, profitability and the ability to level a skill without needing to buy anything/put any effort in.

In my mind leveling a craft skill would usualy be non profitable, take a lot of time and effort and you would need to buy/source items from other players.

That is all fine and dandy in WoW, but the devs from Mythic have emphasized over and over that crafting in this game should not feel grindy, be a time-sink or be boring or not fun. At the moment TM is all of the above. I am at level 63 and to get there has cost me a pretty penny, a lot of farming time and has not been fun.

[Armgnawer]

I don't mind so much being interdependent, it's figuring it all out to begin with that annoys me. XD

I find it odd, though, that I seem to have the opposite problem that I keep hearing from slavager/TM's. I'm SWIMMING in fragments. It's the essences that I can't seem to get enough of.

[Sabbatai]

I have one character. It is a Rank 18 Shadow Warrior. I have TM at 39 right now and Magic Salvaging is ..well high enough to break down level 19 gear.

I have an excess of 90g, not including what I have set aside for my mount.

Talismans sell well on the Auction Market (not house!). Fragments sell even better. Essences? Yep they sell too.

How is this "not viable?"

Something tells me you folks are going about the leveling process in a costly and inefficient manner. I have 1 friend who consistently sends me items to "disenchant" as he calls it (ugh, this isn't WoW but w/e gets my name ringing out).. the rest come from Renown Gear merchants.

I can buy an item for 13 silver. Let's say I buy a stack of 10 for 1g 30s.

I get 10 level 25 essences, and maybe 4-5 fragments of the same level.

I go to the Auctioneer and see people selling fragments for 3 gold! Ridiculous. I sell mine for what I believe is a fair 25-50s.

I see essences 3 for 3 gold. Again, terrible. I sell mine for about 50-75s each depending on the market. Hey I don't want to rip people off, but if people are selling for a gold each, I think 75s is a fair price. I often go as low as 30s just to get them sold.

Assuming worst case:

4 level 25 fragments @ 25s = 1g
10 level 25 essences @ 30s = 3g
Initial Investment = 1g 30s

4g
- 1g 30s
_______
2g 70s

All day long.

That isn't even considering the talismans I sell for 1-4g each. Granted I spent some time educating people about the benefits of +6 wounds, and +3 toughness etc... but they sell. Obviously some more than others. Resist talismans don't sell at all.

In order of popularity:
Wounds
Toughness
Ballistic
Weapon Skill
Willpower
Intelligence
Initiative
The rest.

I don't want to sound preachy, I am really just trying to help. I also realize that once everyone notices that TM isn't as difficult as people think that my profits will plunge... that's ok. I made my money early on and have nothing to spend it on anyway.

Getting curios and the other mats needed from scav and apoth players is a bit difficult as is the fact that I've yet to find a level 25 container from any merchant, which I understand won't be a problem when my guild reaches rank 7 (currently 6).

All of the above statements were true even before I began using player made curios and gold essences. This was all done with renown gear mats and talismans made with level 1 and sometimes some level 25 mats.