Two things to fix TM

[cyfir]

TM, as is right now, is not an effective tradeskill. It is virtually impossible to keep it on par with your level without massive investment, and produces truly underwhelming results at lower levels. I think with two changes - one to Talisman Making, and one to Magical Salvaging, TM can be turned into a every bit as viable a tradeskill as Apothecary.

First - eliminate the duration on low-level talismans. At the rate you replace gear in this game, you'll naturally limit the effectiveness of a given talisman at lower ranks anyway. Besides which, a low-power talisman is hardly a "keeper"; you'd *want* to replace it as soon as something better comes around. All this does is punish casual players who don't race to level quickly, by making them feel guilty about running around IC and exploring, or talking to guildmates.

Second - increase the production rate of grey-quality fragments. In any other profession, one can get the first 50 points before level 6 or 7 with little to no effort. TM, however, requires the destruction of 50 green items just to get the *chance* to skill TM to 50. Given that TM components increase in minimum skill requirement as you level (for example - by the low teens virtually every curio you get from Scavenging will require a bare minimum of 50 TM to incorporate,) it's virtually impossible to level TM without either spending more money than you have buying green equipment to salvage (from AH or Renown vendors,) or keeping TM *far* below your level and grinding lowbie areas for gear - which will not even be an option for those of us on Open RvR servers. The easy solution to this is to generate multiple grey fragments *every* time you salvage a green item. Then give items a small chance to generate a fragment of the same quality as the item was, and a *very* small chance to generate a fragment of the next higher quality. A grey fragment is hardly going to be a much-sought-after item, and will allow TMs to create enough talismans to keep their skill on par with their level.

[Kyrt]

Completely agree. I enjoyed TM AFTER I struggled to get passed 50 trade skill. It is very very difficult to get the required fragments early on w/o sacrificing your entire bank roll and the quality of your gear. There needs to be an added fragment source of some kind in the early going.

[Sepherin]

I say if they want to keep time limits that is fine, but then when you produce talismans you need to be able to make more than 1 at a time. I made one that upped my toughness by 2 (my first one *tear*) but only for 7 hours, had that come in a stack of 5 or so...you can see where I am going with this.

I also think the most basic talismans should be able to be made pretty much standalone (with salvaging) and only the very high/good ones require you to trade with others.

[Thalyon]

TM, as is right now, is not an effective tradeskill. It is virtually impossible to keep it on par with your level without massive investment, and produces truly underwhelming results at lower levels. I think with two changes - one to Talisman Making, and one to Magical Salvaging, TM can be turned into a every bit as viable a tradeskill as Apothecary.

First - eliminate the duration on low-level talismans. At the rate you replace gear in this game, you'll naturally limit the effectiveness of a given talisman at lower ranks anyway. Besides which, a low-power talisman is hardly a "keeper"; you'd *want* to replace it as soon as something better comes around. All this does is punish casual players who don't race to level quickly, by making them feel guilty about running around IC and exploring, or talking to guildmates.

Second - increase the production rate of grey-quality fragments. In any other profession, one can get the first 50 points before level 6 or 7 with little to no effort. TM, however, requires the destruction of 50 green items just to get the *chance* to skill TM to 50. Given that TM components increase in minimum skill requirement as you level (for example - by the low teens virtually every curio you get from Scavenging will require a bare minimum of 50 TM to incorporate,) it's virtually impossible to level TM without either spending more money than you have buying green equipment to salvage (from AH or Renown vendors,) or keeping TM *far* below your level and grinding lowbie areas for gear - which will not even be an option for those of us on Open RvR servers. The easy solution to this is to generate multiple grey fragments *every* time you salvage a green item. Then give items a small chance to generate a fragment of the same quality as the item was, and a *very* small chance to generate a fragment of the next higher quality. A grey fragment is hardly going to be a much-sought-after item, and will allow TMs to create enough talismans to keep their skill on par with their level.

Your suggestions make sense. I especially agree with the change to Talisman making.
Thanks

[eekamouse]

I agree that TM needs some tweeking. However, the time limits should be left as-is I think. I mean 8 hours is quit a bit of time really.

It's gameplay, not real time.

[Danlo]

I agree something should be done, I've tried each proffesion so far and TM is by far the most agrivating.:twisted:

[Red Asphalt]

I'd be happy if vendors sold grey-quality (i.e. worse than the current worst) skill level 1 fragments in some stat everybody has some use for, like toughness or initiative. They wouldn't be overpowering at all, but would even things out some.

Currently talisman making is the only tradeskill where you can't make at least something right off the bat. You can buy basic apothecary components and seeds. You can scavenge or butcher the first level 1-5 monster you see. You can salvage the first salvageable item you get (although grey quality level 1 essence-salvage-only "practice salvage only" salavageables on the vendor would be nice).

To make your first talisman, at the very minimum you need a green or better non-belt non-accessory non-headgear with stats on it plus magic salvaging or a friend/alt with same.

I'm fine with interdependence to make the good stuff, but half the point of being able to skill to 25-35 solo with cheap vendor stuff is to be able to get the hang of a tradeskill and decide if you like it.

[Nerfenlied]

I agree that TM needs some tweeking. However, the time limits should be left as-is I think. I mean 8 hours is quit a bit of time really.

It's gameplay, not real time.

It's less than one gaming day for a "hardcore" player. I'll surely be playing that much at first at least, I'm sure after experiencing beta. And I sure as hell won't be bothered with this pityful profession if I have to bother getting new talismans every day, it's a bad timesink and not worth the time.

[elmir]

Regarding the OP:

I'm not too sure about your suggestion to get mutliple fragments off a single item through salvaging... That wouldn't be a buff to TM, but a buff to salvaging.

I'd rather see the possibility through TM making to "split" magical fragments into smaller cores. That way, a single powerfull fragment would be obtained through salvaging, but you'd actually NEED the Talisman maker to convert it into lesser cores for the refinement of the fragments.

Better yet, why not include the option to make talismans for both full fragment AND those "split cores"? It could be a nice addition in terms of duration of the talisman... For example: if you use a full fragment, you can end up with a permanent talisman for sure, if it's split into lesser cores: you end with a lower grade talisman that has a limited duration (but also allowing you to craft more of them per fragment, so a better choice for leveling TMing).

I think that would also differentiate TMing a bit more from "a more expensive variation of apothecary" to an actual skill giving you some proper longer lasting power.

[Sammual]

Completely agree. I enjoyed TM AFTER I struggled to get passed 50 trade skill. It is very very difficult to get the required fragments early on w/o sacrificing your entire bank roll and the quality of your gear. There needs to be an added fragment source of some kind in the early going.

Bah, it only costs 18 gold to get your Talisman Making to 50.
And you can sell the 80 Talismans you created for 80 brass coins!

Sammual

[eekamouse]

It's less than one gaming day for a "hardcore" player. I'll surely be playing that much at first at least, I'm sure after experiencing beta. And I sure as hell won't be bothered with this pityful profession if I have to bother getting new talismans every day, it's a bad timesink and not worth the time.

Ya, but these are the "level one" talismans.

The higher level ones last for "days" of game time, if they aren't "weeks" or permanent.

[cyfir]

Regarding the OP:

I'm not too sure about your suggestion to get mutliple fragments off a single item through salvaging... That wouldn't be a buff to TM, but a buff to salvaging.

I'd rather see the possibility through TM making to "split" magical fragments into smaller cores. That way, a single powerfull fragment would be obtained through salvaging, but you'd actually NEED the Talisman maker to convert it into lesser cores for the refinement of the fragments.

Better yet, why not include the option to make talismans for both full fragment AND those "split cores"? It could be a nice addition in terms of duration of the talisman... For example: if you use a full fragment, you can end up with a permanent talisman for sure, if it's split into lesser cores: you end with a lower grade talisman that has a limited duration (but also allowing you to craft more of them per fragment, so a better choice for leveling TMing).

I think that would also differentiate TMing a bit more from "a more expensive variation of apothecary" to an actual skill giving you some proper longer lasting power.

I did specify that it would be a buff to salvaging, but one that would fix TM. The bottom line is you need a truly ridiculous amount of gear to destroy, just to get to 50.

The subject of crafting interdependency is one I'm still on the fence about - I think a good AH economy will make that less of an issue, *if* talismans and potions end up being worth buying. But to give you an idea how hard it is to make a Talisman, a flowchart to identify the requirements for one very rare (purple) talisman. You need:

- Fragment: ONLY acquired through Salvaging. Requires destruction of a one-quality-higher piece of gear with the stat you want in your talisman. So, to make powerful talismans, realistically we're killing a blue at the least.
- Curio: Except for greys, ONLY acquired the Scavenging. Nonstop humanoid pve-slayage (at or near your level,) expect a green curio every few minutes, a blue one every half hour or so, and a purple per play session.
-Magical Essence: Acquired through "scrap" drops from Salvaging. From my testing, you will need more scraps for the amount of fragments you get, however, scraps can be vendor-purchased.
-Gold Essence: This is the fun one. ONLY acquired through *Apothecary*. To make ONE essence, you need:
-Container & Quicksilver: Vendor purchased.
-Gold Dust: ONLY acquired through Scavenging.
-Goldweed: ONLY acquired through Cultivation. To get high quality goldweed (while not ruining your precious rare-quality goldweed seed, which you spent *hours* trying to get,)
-Soil and Water: for the quality necessary for good gold essence, ONLY acquired through Scavenging or as a PQ/Keep Reward.
-Nutrient: for the quality necessary for good gold essence, ONLY aquired through Butchering or as a PQ/Keep Reward.

For me, that's a fairly compelling argument against becoming a TM. That's a lot of hassle to make the only thing you'd realistically make money off of - and it's entirely possible (likely?) that TM will be WAR's Enchanting/Jewelcrafting - sink tons of money into it to max out, and people act like they're being magnanimous when they tip you 1g after creating 5 purple talismans for them.

[elmir]

Correct,

But at this point, that epic talisman would be the only thing craftable that would be permanent however, I guess that offsets the big pain to get it...

I was just trying to say that fixing a crafting skill by beefing up the gathering skill "associated mostly" with it, sound kinda wrong to me. All it does is inflate the prices for those fragments and make salvagers use more bagspace ;-p

I'd just rather see them fixing the rarity of the mats through the actuall tradeskill itself I suppose.

[Spiffytastic]

We can get the green (maybe higher) stuff which doesn't repair into anything but can be salvaged. I'd like to see that have a chance to return a fragment and the drop rate of those items increased. Similar to seeds/spores for Cultivation.

[Zyxtl]

God forbid there be something difficult to do in MMo's these days. It just amazes me how many people in society are part of this Instan Gratification group. Don't you people want to have any pride in accomplishing something that took some effort?

[Spiffytastic]

It doesn't have much to do with "Instant Gratification"

It has to do with realizing that all the other collection and crafting tradeskill works differently for what reason?

Magical Salvaging requires you to destroy items that many other people would want to use. So in a group situation you're exected to defer your advancement for someone else's advancement. (Or it requires you to spend your money on renoun gear to trash.)

If making the system harder for you to skill up gives you a sence of pride and accomplishment... I suggest you only loot every 5th mob for items. You should feel 5x more proud and accomplished then right?

[Feixeno]

God forbid there be something difficult to do in MMo's these days. It just amazes me how many people in society are part of this Instan Gratification group. Don't you people want to have any pride in accomplishing something that took some effort?

How exactly would mastering Talisman Making be something of an accomplishment? If its bad at level 1 and bad at level 200, even if you did something nobody else did you're still the dumb one for wasting your time.

The fact is right now apothecary is so much better than talisman making. Talisman making is extremely unimpressive and unintuitive and they need to fix this in the coming weeks.

[Anguloke]

Second - increase the production rate of grey-quality fragments. In any other profession, one can get the first 50 points before level 6 or 7 with little to no effort. TM, however, requires the destruction of 50 green items just to get the *chance* to skill TM to 50.

I don't mind the Durations, but this I agree needs some work with number of successes, or they need to increase the drop rate of:

Tier 1 and 2 monsters can now also drop very-badly damaged equipment (Shattered, Ruined, and Sundered Equipment). These uncommon items can't be repaired, but can be salvaged. Players will be able to skill-up Salvaging using these items.

[Toadwart]

Until all gear slots get at least 1 slot to even equip a talisman, I believe any other improvement suggestions are moot.

I don't have a single piece of gear equipped atm that I can even add a talisman to.

[Eikinskialdi]

Personally i think they could increase the frequency of TM drops, atm i haven't had anything above a level 1 container. Other than that, i can't say i've seen a particular issue with talisman making. My skill will be valuable to the guild at high levels and as such they support me. Some people would be frustrated by the skill, thats good as it means not everyone levels the skill. Such a thing devalues the skill, theres a lot of apocs, so the skill isn't as valuable. The skill itself seems just fine to me, and other than containers and essences, i can get fragments and magic essences just fine.

I don't see it as dumb that i'm levelling this skill, i'm already starting to see the beneifts of it. I'm actually more worried it'll become as common as apoc is, because of all the 'its too hard' cries. Then i'll think i've wasted my time, because my skill is no longer as useful.

[programjunkie]

God forbid there be something difficult to do in MMo's these days. It just amazes me how many people in society are part of this Instan Gratification group. Don't you people want to have any pride in accomplishing something that took some effort?

I can understand this argument, but for high level crafting. Crafting the Talisman of Sigmar, +10 to all stats and permanent, should be a crowning moment on months of work. But crafting some piece of crap +1 to Intelligence, 7 hours only talisman should be easy and cheap.

You can level to 40ish Alchemy without taking any gathering profession or interacting with any player at all. You can't do the same for Talisman Making at all.

[Bait]

It doesn't have much to do with "Instant Gratification"

It has to do with realizing that all the other collection and crafting tradeskill works differently for what reason?

Magical Salvaging requires you to destroy items that many other people would want to use. So in a group situation you're exected to defer your advancement for someone else's advancement. (Or it requires you to spend your money on renoun gear to trash.)

If making the system harder for you to skill up gives you a sence of pride and accomplishment... I suggest you only loot every 5th mob for items. You should feel 5x more proud and accomplished then right?

I would much prefer TM to be difficult and complex to level up. Because it will be a required purchase for everoyone (RR gear has Talisman slots. Everyone will want to fill them). Since people will pretty much HAVE to purchase them, the less people producing talismans... the more profit I can make.

Right now TM is hard, I have to work (or pay) for every skill up since level 1. But this means there will be far less people competeing with me in the endgame market. I don't have a problem with this.

[Rizem]

I think it's good, i'm with the "god forbid something is a bit tough and takes some work..." crowd.

Sub 50 needs fixing to be sure, you have to artificialy do it due to some bad balancing. That needs tweaking. After that i'm happy, only other suggestion would be blue talismans to 10 days, that's mostly coming from a fragment made from desrtoying a purple, it should be a good cheap alternative to a permanent one, not a cheap throw away.