Magus Spell List

[Ethandril]

Unoffical Magus Spell List
FLINGRAT FIRE
Deals moderate damage to your target


CLINGING CHAOS
Target becomes snared, reducing its runspeed by 20%


DISSOLVING BLAST
Damages your target over 10 seconds

[Ethandril]

Resource #1: Chaos@buffed.de (http://www.buffed.de/portal/features/mmog-specials/zu-besuch-bei-ea-mythic/die-buffed-redaktion-in-washington-teil-3/das-chaos-startgebiet.html)


If you find other information about the Spells of the Magus, please post it here, so I can
edit the first post to make an unoffical Magus Spell List.

[3eeve]

Ahh neat! Looking more and more warlock-like all the time. But hopefully they find something to differentiate the class and make it unique.

I really wonder how the disk is going to operate.

[Lord Semaj]

Ahh neat! Looking more and more warlock-like all the time. But hopefully they find something to differentiate the class and make it unique.

I really wonder how the disk is going to operate.
Well really, that's already different from the other classes, like the Bright Wizard may be much closer to a standard fire mage, and the squig herder is without a doubt some hunter hybrid. But really, even if the class turns out almost exactly like the warlock, WoW wasn't the first game to make a class like that and it's just one of several archetypes that do exist.

Really, though, I doubt they'll skimp on the nukes, so I'd expect this class to be more destructive, a necromancer of sorts (which WoW players will be unfamiliar with).

Incidentally, the warlock from Shadowbane could fly, mez, and nuke, and mages from the same game could do so if they were the right race. Vampire mage = Magus?

[Crusader]

I was picturing the Magnus as being Destruction's primary nuker. I thought if anything was going to be nercomancerish it was going to be DE Sorcerers. Of course it could easily be the other way around, or perhaps Order has heavier nukes and Destruction has moderate nukers with some DoTs thrown in.

[Lord Semaj]

^^^ It'd be just like City of Heroes vs City of Villains. The Heroes are the pure classes, the Villains are the freaks. In the end, though, Hybrids can be more powerful than staple flamethrowers.

[Ditto]

FLINGRAT FIRE
Deals moderate damage to your target


I wonder what can be considered moderate damage, will it be relative to some other spells you have and on which scale? Like on newbie scale it could be like 20-50 when 100 being the maximum damaging spell you have, and on T4 scale it could be 250-400. I think these are quite important questions when putting values up like that. And how great are the health pools are going to be.

[Node]

I wonder what can be considered moderate damage, will it be relative to some other spells you have and on which scale? Like on newbie scale it could be like 20-50 when 100 being the maximum damaging spell you have, and on T4 scale it could be 250-400. I think these are quite important questions when putting values up like that. And how great are the health pools are going to be.

The level 40s in the press event PvP videos had anywhere from 1100 to 1400HP. And, yeah, I do not like the "moderate", "light", etc. wording in place of explicit numbers (or number ranges). People will be able to work out the numbers anyhow -- being vague is only going to increase the disparity between players who've looked outside of the game for parsed combat data, and those who haven't.

[Lord Semaj]

Don't worry about the damage values. In many MMOs, casters have basic nukes that say moderate. You only have to worry when it says low. Moderate likely means it's the basic spam skill. Shadow Bolt (warlock) did moderate damage, and that was exceptional. As for being vague, part of the skill you develop playing the game is learning what moderate means or how it applies to each tier. Sure, they can flat out tell you. Or they can leave it open as another skill you pick up on, being able to determine that for yourself.

Apparently we'll "flinging" many "rat fires". Yay, flinging rat fire.

[Ditto]

Moderate likely means it's the basic spam skill. Shadow Bolt (warlock) did moderate damage, and that was exceptional.
The spell itself was not amazing at all, but all of the debuffs and buffs add up nicely, making it hit/crit for huge amounts, also being so slow to cast it benefitted a lot from +spelldamage. On a mage's scale moderate would again be higher than on warlock's, because not only did their spell make more damage on impact, they also left a minor DoT and ignite on crit.
We need exact values :p Putting things like that is not very fun when the game is not even in a proper beta yet :(

[Lord Semaj]

That's precisely why the descriptions are so vague. Vanguard did the same, putting vague descriptions until the end of beta. The damage values will change often in beta, so final descriptions are saved for the end.

[Janan Pacha]

Well really, that's already different from the other classes, like the Bright Wizard may be much closer to a standard fire mage, and the squig herder is without a doubt some hunter hybrid. But really, even if the class turns out almost exactly like the warlock, WoW wasn't the first game to make a class like that and it's just one of several archetypes that do exist.

Really, though, I doubt they'll skimp on the nukes, so I'd expect this class to be more destructive, a necromancer of sorts (which WoW players will be unfamiliar with).

Incidentally, the warlock from Shadowbane could fly, mez, and nuke, and mages from the same game could do so if they were the right race. Vampire mage = Magus?

In the videos and elsewhere I'll seen them talk a lot about lightning and chaos in reference to the Magus spells, and the discs themselves having attacks (there's mention here:

From Chaos TT army list:
"The Discs of Tzeentch themselves are not defenseless either, lashing out around themselves with bolts or magical lightning, or manifesting whirling tentacles or ripping claws to slash at enemies who approach too close."

of how the disc might act.

-

Minus the disc, the floating and lighting alone sort of sound like Shadowbane's Fury class (The Amazon Female only AoE nuker, in fact I believe for their best AoEs they had to be up in the air to use them).

Nothing solid . . . but it's interesting stuff to consider.

I was picturing the Magnus as being Destruction's primary nuker. I thought if anything was going to be nercomancerish it was going to be DE Sorcerers. Of course it could easily be the other way around, or perhaps Order has heavier nukes and Destruction has moderate nukers with some DoTs thrown in.

Their description really doesn't say that to me. Their defense against an attacker, and the description of how an attacker should go at a magus describes the magus as versatile:

This was the description for playing a Magus:

the primary tactical questions you must answer in battle are which of your abilities will be most effective, and where best to apply them. Your damage dealing power will be well applied in almost any situation, but an in depth understanding of the secondary effects of your spells is also pivotal to maximizing your effectiveness and potency. You are versatile, but you must select the best tools for each fight in order to succeed. Supplement this with good use of your Disc and its special abilities and you will have mastered the basics of playing the Magus.

On top of your damage, its secondary effects, the suggested utility and your versatility you also have the disc. It does things too somehow . . . though it doesn't quite describe how. I can't wait to see how it works.

This was the description of suggestions for assaulting a Magus:

The key special consideration springs from his versatility. If you assault a Magus with one particular approach, he may well have an offense to counter your own. Thus you must either employ a variety of attacks to circumvent this, or be ready to change tactics with extreme agility to react to whatever trick the Magus happens to pull out of his hat.

This tells me the magus doesn't jsut have utility but can switch tactics in a drastic enough manner that if you don't or can't switch up your own strategy on the fly . . . you'll find yourself overwhelmed. It has interesting implications.

What's more . . . we know that there are several ways to go with each class. How much of that versaility is reliant on how you built your character?

That's precisely why the descriptions are so vague. Vanguard did the same, putting vague descriptions until the end of beta. The damage values will change often in beta, so final descriptions are saved for the end.

And since it's an MMO we should all know that even something finala fter beta is still subject to change. Balancing an MMO never stops. Things change throughout their lifetime. There's never an exception.

[INDECLINE]

i play warhammer mark of chaos...do u think some of the skills from this game will also be in WAR online????? i really like alot of the skills in mark of chaos..for example there are Roars that decrease morale and there are buffs and there are like AOE staff attacks and shouts that do cool stuff...although i do wish skavens would be in WAR online...wonder why they got left out.

[Sneakyrick]

[quote=Lord Semaj;233821] Really, though, I doubt they'll skimp on the nukes, so I'd expect this class to be more destructive, a necromancer of sorts (which WoW players will be unfamiliar with).

I think the Magus is going to be the nuker and the Zealot will be more of a necromancer type character.

[Lord Semaj]

[quote=Sneakyrick;247080]

I think the Magus is going to be the nuker and the Zealot will be more of a necromancer type character.
The necromancer IS a nuker. The Zealot is a healer, making him a bloodmage if anything.

[Ditto]

To me zealot looks a lot more like a shaman. He can melee, debuff/DoT, heal, and he has some totems and buffs too.

[Cha(freakin)os]

I doubt this will be like the WoW 1 and 2 shoting PvP. I see it taking a bit longer to kill someone. This game shouldn't be gear based (which is where 1 and 2 shoting comes from) it should be skill based. So the Magus will be dealing the most damage... but still not be able to 1 shot anyone.

[Noli me Tangere]

I doubt this will be like the WoW 1 and 2 shoting PvP. I see it taking a bit longer to kill someone. This game shouldn't be gear based (which is where 1 and 2 shoting comes from) it should be skill based. So the Magus will be dealing the most damage... but still not be able to 1 shot anyone.

I see this thrown around a lot. It needs snipped in the butt. A Skill based game doesn't prevent domination on the level you're speaking of. Or rather the seeming existence thereof. Guild Wars is very skill and build based, items don't matter nearly as much as your team make up. A good team can destroy another team entirely in so little time it seems only one blow was ever struck, even though that's not the truth of it.

Skill based games truly allow those with significant skill to dominate those of lesser skill just as readily as out gearing someone can allow the easy destruction of lower geared players. Like Guild Wars or hate it, a good build and a team that worked together with skill was going to destroy the average team.

And a competition between two teams, both incredibly good at what they did, that could go on for hours.

[Dustandpolos]

He never said anything about good teams not being able to steamroller poor ones in PvP. What he said was he didn't think magi would be able to 1 shot people, as he doesn't envisage the game designers trying to make combat very short and with items being limited in power its much easier to prevent people abusing the system; the devs can keep a tighter reign on things.

I agree; even in guildwars you couldn't 1-shot people, and in guildwars you could expect a very short lifespan compared to other games. With frequent in-battle ressing by monks this made for a skilful, fast-paced game. But if mythic want any race to stand a chance 1-1 against any other they won't allow 1/2/3 shot kills as this would just make ranged classes unbeatable 1-1 by a melee. Plus with only hybrid healers, who have to build up some kind of resource from attacking to heal effectively instead of the incredible healing ability of the GW monk if left alone long enough, damage output may turn out to be lower to compensate (though this is only a guess; anyone care to comment who's seen both GW and early WAR PvP in action?)

[Feigro]

As far as I remember (and I don't believe it has changed), CoH went with the whole "does low/moderate/heavy/etc damage" with their tooltip descriptions. So it's possible that that form of description may hold for release as well, rather than just being placeholder.

[Accipiter]

I see this thrown around a lot. It needs snipped in the butt. A Skill based game doesn't prevent domination on the level you're speaking of. Or rather the seeming existence thereof. Guild Wars is very skill and build based, items don't matter nearly as much as your team make up. A good team can destroy another team entirely in so little time it seems only one blow was ever struck, even though that's not the truth of it.

Skill based games truly allow those with significant skill to dominate those of lesser skill just as readily as out gearing someone can allow the easy destruction of lower geared players. Like Guild Wars or hate it, a good build and a team that worked together with skill was going to destroy the average team.

And a competition between two teams, both incredibly good at what they did, that could go on for hours.


I think you mean "nipped in the bud". No butt snipping, please.

And I agree with the posters who say that there will be very little "one-shotting". If the ranged dps can one-shot (due to either gear or class abilities) the game will be unbalanced. You won't even be able to get close to them with stealth, as there is no stealth.

While battles will still often be quick due to superior numbers or superior tactics/teamwork, I do not believe people will have the ability to kill someone with one or two button mashes.

As someone planning on playing a ranged dps, I expect to have to use a variety of abilities and some kiting skills to put people down.

[Xerac Voor]

Looking at the book and from the lore of Tzeentch, I figured the Magus' spells would all relate to the various types of fire.

Red Fire:

Your basic magic missile / firebolt

Orange Fire:

The flames that spring up around the Sorcerer contain scenes from the future, warning him of what is to come.

This could grant a better chance to dodge or resist attacks (assuming there are mechanics such as these in WAR)

Yellow Fire:

The Sorcerer is surrounded by a shield of fire that blocks enemy attacks.

This could either be altered to reduce damage rather than completely negate it.

Green Fire:

A subtle whisper in their minds suddenly persuades many warriors to change their allegiance and attack their comrades.

This could either be a mind control type spell or other form of crowd control for the Magus.

Indigo Fire:

Envolopes the enemy in mutating flames, turning them into a horror of Tzeentch.

This could either be used as a temporary control measure similar to the polymorph spell in WoW mages.

Violet Fire:

The enemy for all intents and purposes in banished to the realm of Chaos.

Could be made temporary or as a spell which becomes available when the enemy is nearly dead, almost like a finishing move for lack of a more appropriate term.

There is also Blue Fire however it is pretty much the same as Red Fire, a basic fireball attack. It depends how faithful Mythic are going to be in terms of sticking to the lore of Tzeentch, but thats pretty much the spells that are available to a Tzeentch mage/sorcerer.

[Arijharn]

I know this is bit of thread resurrection, but it would be such a pitty if Tzeentch magi didn't have Pink Fires of Tzeentch.

Of course, that spell is sorta balanced with army vs. army combat rather than player vs. player, but still... it just seems too iconic for them to ignore and/or dismiss.

[Malvos]

There is a "zap" basic spell.

[Oak]

Can't particularly powerful Sorcerers turn people into Chaos Spawn?

[Aes]

Two shotting is going to be in the game, because it's simply how certain classes perate. The Bright wizard is going to go down if you poke him, so you should expect him to two shot you in your heavy armour. Some classes win through burning out and others win through persisting. We already know that gear will not have as significant an impact as standard in an mmo so any two shotting that takes place will mostly likely be intentional. It may not always be fun when you get nuked in such a manner but the opposite results in you just standing around bashing away like a turn based final fantasy game, which will get boring really fast.

[TaurenMoo]

Two shotting is not going to be in the game, because it's simply because of a lack of inflation on gear and a theme of skill in play. The Bright wizard is not going to go down if you poke him, so you should not expect him to two shot you in your heavy armour. You should expect a certain level of strategy to the game, PVP tanks if you will, lines, support. We already know that gear will not have as significant an impact as standard in an mmo so you can expect two shooting to not occur and battles to take some time. At the same time if you as a pvp tank support a caster by standing in the way the caster will unload and so will you on single characters people will drop rather quickly, that is called teamwork... at the same time if you don't work as a team you will die rather quickly to people who play as a team and use strategy

Fixed..

This is not wow, do not expect quick 2 shot battles to occur, expect strategy to occur, WAR devs have already announced that during combat experienced pvpers will be switching out their Tactic system. Item inflation won't happen and expect caps and item degradation, at the same time expect skill and teamwork on the part of a team to be the cause of quick deaths, 2 shot classes will not be around.

[Aes]

TaurenMoo remove the knowledge filter from around your brain. At what point did any of what I say contradict any element of strategy that may be in the game? Did you read what you edited? That's a serious question, because I'm rather dumbfounded by what you said. I never said strategy wasn't going to occur, I just don't want the game to slow down to a pace where I can drink a beer in combat because I have to get 20 3 second casts off to kill someone.

You can't magically have tanks and melee dpser able to take out cloth classes and ranged dpsers and not let them have a similiar effect on the heavily armoured melee classes becuase if you don't then melee classes become superior until enough numbers join the fight that ranged and support specialization become efficient. Are you suggesting that Mythic adopt an approach such that ranged and support can't play until they have the tanks to protect them?

You may be expecting epic battles like some sort of scene out of Troy but you need to get real. If ranged and support classes don't get the appropriate kick then they just become accessories to the tanks. There is still strategy when players can do massive amounts of damage, it has to do with identifying threats and targeting the right person to attack, debuff or defend, don't expect any shield walls, and possibly be prepared for the fact that a tank might die occaisionally.

But under no circumstances is it going to take me 600 fireballs to kill you just because you'll cry if I can do it in 300, especially when you'll expect me to die when you sneeze. If you really take seriously the rewording of my post that you did then the game is going to end up such that tanks are the gods of the battlefield and everyone else is just an accessory, where all battles are won on the backs of tanks and possibly healers. Damage dealing is going to be significant and if yu play a tank you may have to come up against more than just a wet cardboard choppa.

[TaurenMoo]

TaurenMoo remove the knowledge filter from around your brain. At what point did any of what I say contradict any element of strategy that may be in the game? Did you read what you edited? That's a serious question, because I'm rather dumbfounded by what you said. I never said strategy wasn't going to occur, I just don't want the game to slow down to a pace where I can drink a beer in combat because I have to get 20 3 second casts off to kill someone.

You can't magically have tanks and melee dpser able to take out cloth classes and ranged dpsers and not let them have a similiar effect on the heavily armoured melee classes becuase if you don't then melee classes become superior until enough numbers join the fight that ranged and support specialization become efficient. Are you suggesting that Mythic adopt an approach such that ranged and support can't play until they have the tanks to protect them?

You may be expecting epic battles like some sort of scene out of Troy but you need to get real. If ranged and support classes don't get the appropriate kick then they just become accessories to the tanks. There is still strategy when players can do massive amounts of damage, it has to do with identifying threats and targeting the right person to attack, debuff or defend, don't expect any shield walls, and possibly be prepared for the fact that a tank might die occaisionally.

But under no circumstances is it going to take me 600 fireballs to kill you just because you'll cry if I can do it in 300, especially when you'll expect me to die when you sneeze. If you really take seriously the rewording of my post that you did then the game is going to end up such that tanks are the gods of the battlefield and everyone else is just an accessory, where all battles are won on the backs of tanks and possibly healers. Damage dealing is going to be significant and if yu play a tank you may have to come up against more than just a wet cardboard choppa.

Ummm I am going to go ahead and point at your previous comments about bright wizards 2 shooting melee classes... then I am going to point at the fact that if a bright wizard is 2 shooting melee classes at range that is called imbalance. Its a big part of what happens in WoW and will not make it here. Ontop of that welcome to the fact that you are playing in a Team based PVP game, this mythical area where a bright wizard will die from getting poked and a melee class will just magically appear infront of the bright wizard to poke him dead and thusly he should be able to one/two shoot anyone from range is so close to retarded I almost want to ask if you have had your frontal lobe removed.
(ultra quick kill like http://epicmagemanuever.ytmnd.com/ (http://epicmagemanuever.ytmnd.com/) < this will not happen)

Its players that play ranged classes that seem to think that it is alright to down play how amazingly powerful ranged combat is... You can do ranged combat from your max range to melee range, it doesn't stop you, but a warrior type class is doing it at 1 range, melee. Thats how it works. That being said I don't expect it to take 300 fireballs to kill someone, at the same time I expect a bright wizard to take a blow, same for a melee class, at the same time a melee class will take more blows by their nature. Fact of the matter is this is a game based on skill and teamwork, not the WoW pug where a mage can 2 shot targets l337 gear game you seem to be absolutely blinded by, that is not pvp, that is a game of people with rifles against guys with swords...

That being said at what point didn't you read the info or listen to the movies that are already out? Strategy will play a part in this game, ranged classes will be supported, and yes characters like the black orc will force characters to pay attention to them else open weakness. So if you are done being uninformed about how stuff will work please go watch some videos, go read some info and realize that while alot of it is guess work, alot of it is not.

I am more confused as to which side you are taking, because in one post that you think the bright wizard should 2 shot people at range, but its okay for a melee class to 1 shot a bright wizard... HELLO THERES A LITTLE FACTOR CALLED RANGE, you think a melee class is gonna somehow magically appear next to said bright wizard? 2 Shooting requires no skill, and will not be in this game. If a team kicks your its because the shaman, and the spuig hunter, and the black orc, and the choppa targeted you and beat your , not because you didn't stab him fast enough or his gear is better than yours...

And yes tanks are going to be a threat, if they are not a threat then you can just ignore them. That is blizzards failure with prot spec warriors, people laugh at them unless its in PVE. This game doesn't have PVE expect Sword and Board (well CHOPPA and board) Black Orcs to kick your , knock you flat and beat the crap out of you as well as stand between you and the person they are protecting and stop you from getting to them. An orc will protect his goblin buddy because his goblin buddy is healing the orc, thats how teamwork works... Don't like it? get a friend... and a clue...

Now please reread what you typed so you don't sound like a moron...

[Aes]

Maybe you should stop labeling me as a WoW addict and read the words I type. I haven't once mentioned gear or highlighted independent play yet that's exactly what you've called me twice now.

I'm not calling for ranged class superiority, I already told you I played a rogue in WoW so why you're pegging me as the hunter/mage type is beyond me, yes I'm ging to play a bright wizard but in case you hadn't noticed the game isn't out yet. I'm well aware of class balance, the problem is you don't see the impact of what you're suggesting.

Let's take any ranged class, yes he has the benefit of distance, the cost of it is that he's frail, if any catches up to him he's in trouble, I'll take this moment to remind you that we've already seen that every class will have a sprint ability in the game. If we remove the ideo of tanks from the game and just pit a ranged class against a melee class, nt being a tank won't have too much more armour than the ranged class, so he'll need to be able to do more damage than the ranged class because he gives up the safety of range. SO the amount of damage the ranged class can do will dependon how fast the melee class can reach him.

The problem is that when you add in tanks the balance shifts dramatically, it'll now take a lot longer for a melee class to reach the ranged class but everyone can reach the melee class, so now the ranged class has to do a lot less damage to balance it out. So the amount of time it takes to kill a tank is going to affect the amount of damage that a ranged class can do and if the amount of damage a ranged class can do is reduced based on the significant defence of a tank then the ranged class simply can't play without a tank hence they become an accessory and WAR's RvR gets turned into WoW's PvE.

Where do any of the videos released credit what you are saying or discredit what I am saying? Strategy last time I checked meant that you actually had to think on your feet and use your brain to gain an advantage. How would being forced to follow behind a tank the whole game or risk instant death equate to that? Infact what you're describing seems to be a very slow and systematic style of play where everyone is fixed solidly in their ability and role and merely sees the inevitability of what's going to happen while they pass out from boredom.

Why is it so difficult for the game to fast paced and strategic? Could you possibly imagine someone trying to two shot your tank, burn himself out, but because your healer was prepared he saved the tank, now the ranged class needs to recover before he can put up a decent attack again. Why do you get the idea that the game can't be balanced unless ranged classes use pea shooters?

[someguysteve]

I can't remember where exactly, but I'm pretty damn sure they've said there won't be any one and two shotting.

[TaurenMoo]

Maybe you should stop labeling me as a WoW addict and read the words I type. I haven't once mentioned gear or highlighted independent play yet that's exactly what you've called me twice now.

I'm not calling for ranged class superiority, I already told you I played a rogue in WoW so why you're pegging me as the hunter/mage type is beyond me, yes I'm ging to play a bright wizard but in case you hadn't noticed the game isn't out yet. I'm well aware of class balance, the problem is you don't see the impact of what you're suggesting.

Let's take any ranged class, yes he has the benefit of distance, the cost of it is that he's frail, if any catches up to him he's in trouble, I'll take this moment to remind you that we've already seen that every class will have a sprint ability in the game. If we remove the ideo of tanks from the game and just pit a ranged class against a melee class, nt being a tank won't have too much more armour than the ranged class, so he'll need to be able to do more damage than the ranged class because he gives up the safety of range. SO the amount of damage the ranged class can do will dependon how fast the melee class can reach him.

The problem is that when you add in tanks the balance shifts dramatically, it'll now take a lot longer for a melee class to reach the ranged class but everyone can reach the melee class, so now the ranged class has to do a lot less damage to balance it out. So the amount of time it takes to kill a tank is going to affect the amount of damage that a ranged class can do and if the amount of damage a ranged class can do is reduced based on the significant defence of a tank then the ranged class simply can't play without a tank hence they become an accessory and WAR's RvR gets turned into WoW's PvE.

Where do any of the videos released credit what you are saying or discredit what I am saying? Strategy last time I checked meant that you actually had to think on your feet and use your brain to gain an advantage. How would being forced to follow behind a tank the whole game or risk instant death equate to that? Infact what you're describing seems to be a very slow and systematic style of play where everyone is fixed solidly in their ability and role and merely sees the inevitability of what's going to happen while they pass out from boredom.

Why is it so difficult for the game to fast paced and strategic? Could you possibly imagine someone trying to two shot your tank, burn himself out, but because your healer was prepared he saved the tank, now the ranged class needs to recover before he can put up a decent attack again. Why do you get the idea that the game can't be balanced unless ranged classes use pea shooters?

Okay let me break this down for you...

First off:

"Two shotting is going to be in the game, because it's simply how certain classes perate. The Bright wizard is going to go down if you poke him, so you should expect him to two shot you in your heavy armour. Some classes win through burning out and others win through persisting. We already know that gear will not have as significant an impact as standard in an mmo so any two shotting that takes place will mostly likely be intentional. It may not always be fun when you get nuked in such a manner but the opposite results in you just standing around bashing away like a turn based final fantasy game, which will get boring really fast."

Read it... you say clearly that A the bright wizard is going down if you poke him and you should expect him to two shot you in your heavy armour (from a long ways away... is implied and also the situation is clearly solo...). Secondly, Its not fun, ITS NOT FUN AT ALL, whether it be a ranged class getting 2 shooted or a melee class... COMBAT THAT HAPPENS IN 2 BLOWS FAILS! ITS NOT FUN AND ITS NOT CHALLENGING...

Next:

"I'm not calling for ranged class superiority, I already told you I played a rogue in WoW so why you're pegging me as the hunter/mage type is beyond me, yes I'm ging to play a bright wizard but in case you hadn't noticed the game isn't out yet. I'm well aware of class balance, the problem is you don't see the impact of what you're suggesting."

You are a rogue, in WoW a rogue has something better than range... Stealth, stealth is the ultimate anti range, not only can you close the distance without trouble you can close it unseen, and even then if they do get out of range you have skills that throw you back into stealth instantly as well as sprint to get accross the range no matter the distance quickly and effectively... combine them and you are crossing the range invisible at high speed.

Thirdly:

"Let's take any ranged class, yes he has the benefit of distance, the cost of it is that he's frail, if any catches up to him he's in trouble, I'll take this moment to remind you that we've already seen that every class will have a sprint ability in the game. If we remove the idea of tanks from the game and just pit a ranged class against a melee class, nt being a tank won't have too much more armour than the ranged class, so he'll need to be able to do more damage than the ranged class because he gives up the safety of range. SO the amount of damage the ranged class can do will dependon how fast the melee class can reach him."

So let me get this straight... ever class will have a sprint ability in the game... someone sprints at you, you sprint away. Does that make sense? Just making sure you see yourself typing... just checking.

No we don't want to remove the idea of tanks from the game because fact of the matter is PVP tanks is a fantastic idea, the idea of a tank is not someone who does damage and holds agro. A tank is someone who takes blows and is not frail like a bright wizard. Thats why a big tanker class such as a Black Orc will have abilities to slow down and take advantage of people trying to pass him to get to his buddy the shaman... I am sure the other big melee classes whether they be the marauder using his claw mutation based attacks to slow down an attacker a dwarf knocking said attacker senseless with a giant hammer will also have similar abilities. You want tanker classes, you want them to take damage, because if you don't have abilities that force the damage then whats the damn point of having all that armor if you do no damage and are not a threat?

Ranged classes give up defense for range, not damage, they give it up for utility not damage. You seem to be of the impression that giving up armor equals damage as a rogue, you wear leather, completely ignore the fact that your greatest defense and offense is the fact that you can come out of stealth and one-two shot a cloth wearer or did you forget that aspect of your class in order to prove your arguement? There will be no stealth in WAR BTW...

#4:

"The problem is that when you add in tanks the balance shifts dramatically, it'll now take a lot longer for a melee class to reach the ranged class but everyone can reach the melee class, so now the ranged class has to do a lot less damage to balance it out. So the amount of time it takes to kill a tank is going to affect the amount of damage that a ranged class can do and if the amount of damage a ranged class can do is reduced based on the significant defence of a tank then the ranged class simply can't play without a tank hence they become an accessory and WAR's RvR gets turned into WoW's PvE.

Where do any of the videos released credit what you are saying or discredit what I am saying? Strategy last time I checked meant that you actually had to think on your feet and use your brain to gain an advantage. How would being forced to follow behind a tank the whole game or risk instant death equate to that? Infact what you're describing seems to be a very slow and systematic style of play where everyone is fixed solidly in their ability and role and merely sees the inevitability of what's going to happen while they pass out from boredom."

No the problem is up till now you as a rogue could completely ignore a warrior or just stealth by him and shred his buddies in cloth, not only could you do that but if you wanted to you could also stun or disengage from the warrior completely and move away unhindered. The balance does not shift dramatically if you get your head outside the WoW induced idea of what a tank is... Again a tank is a character that is not frail and absorbs blows better due to mitigation and constitution. Whether I am wielding a 2 handed face smasher or a sword and board a warrior will always accomplish both of the above, the difference is that in WoW damage has gotten to the point (Especially on the magical side of things) that the health of a warrior is only slightly better than a caster class, often times almost equal. Yet! the damage is nowhere even close in regards to when the damage can be caused, 5 yards versus 30+.

The ranged class takes advantage of the tank, and the tank takes advantage of the ranged classes abilities. By protecting a ranged class you are granting yourself extra morale through his damage and also protecting him, you protecting him grants him morale to do more damage, your enemies when linking your abilities die faster and thusly you take less damage. Everything is linked in this game, teamwork IS A MUST to take advantage of the system. The movies that discredit what you are saying are out there, go take a look... you might not look foolish here. No its not slow, infact its the definition of teamwork, having a tank infront of you is teamwork and not only will it speed up the combat it actually makes both players way more efficient, why do you think premades tool pug players? I know I tooled pug tier 2+ players wearing pvp blues because my team worked as a team, people got healed, debuffs were cleansed etc, it made us all more effective.

And to stick the marker in the grave:

"Why is it so difficult for the game to fast paced and strategic? Could you possibly imagine someone trying to two shot your tank, burn himself out, but because your healer was prepared he saved the tank, now the ranged class needs to recover before he can put up a decent attack again. Why do you get the idea that the game can't be balanced unless ranged classes use pea shooters?"

Right lets go back to your roots and look, fast paced and strategic...
http://epicmagemanuever.ytmnd.com/
So at what point was that strategic? the point where the guy hit a single button and suddenly grew in power 3 times? or the part where he hit another button and blew away another character in a second... and even if he didn't blow him away... The next button he would have hit woulda been fireblast in all probability, making it a two shot. I played a rogue, I killed clothies in 2-3 blows... I had complete control, it was quick and not fun for them.

The point is, if you are two shooting someone, no healer in a game where healing is already non intensive, will save said tank. Because blizzard chooses to be uninnovative with PVE aswell as PVP, their system of pvp is fast and quick and generally a game of who has better gear, not skill, match that with a game that already requires specs to accomplish roles and they have failed, they have 2 different games, pve and pvp and are not letting players have fun in both. This game is the essense of PVP its built completely into PVP, it does not require thousands upon thousands of damage to down some huge boss or twice that in healing, it doesn't require a melee class to gimp themselves so impossibly much in pve to tank an encounter yet in pvp other classes laugh at or ignore them completely, to even be a remote threat they need to pay 100g a week to enjoy both sides of the game... THATS .

And no I never said ranged classes need pea shooters, but then again you seem to think that all melee classes should one shot ranged classes... thus its okay for you to blow them away in 2 hits at ranged before they even get there. Learn what balance is and what does and does not work. Ranged is understated as an advantage in WoW, Armor means jack with classes that can reach warrior mitigation (Warlock) or escape said damage through abilities (Mage). Ontop of that Fat lot of good health does when the class you are trying to kill can drop you just as fast as you can drop them but they do it at range... and have ways to keep out of yours.

With all that being said, please go play another game, 2 shots will NEVER HAPPEN here and ontop of that strategic fighting will probably take several minutes with skilled groups, not seconds to accomplish, there is nothing "Skilled" or "Strategic" about a ranged class being able to blow away anyone and everyone in their large attack radius in 2 button pushes... Thats not how balance works and Mythic will never let that happen.

[Aes]

I don't think this can go on at this rate without getting locked so I'm gonna tone this down.


Read it... you say clearly that A the bright wizard is going down if you poke him and you should expect him to two shot you in your heavy armour (from a long ways away... is implied and also the situation is clearly solo...). Secondly, Its not fun, ITS NOT FUN AT ALL, whether it be a ranged class getting 2 shooted or a melee class... COMBAT THAT HAPPENS IN 2 BLOWS FAILS! ITS NOT FUN AND ITS NOT CHALLENGING...

Wrong. You make the assumption that there will always be a tank present and that every single occurence of RvR will have a tank present, and that is complete garbage, it's very possible that a tank won't be present in a 6v6 scenario a skirmish or a battlefield, it doesn't have to be a one on one scenario. In any case where there isn't a tank to taunt or physically block someone from going after the ranged damage dealer he's going to be in trouble. If you balance ranged classes with the mindset that they are going to be protected by tanks then in every situation where there is no tank the ranged class is screwed. If you balance the classes in one on one scenarios you can still play each class in a group and you get the same results, because a tank wil always be able to play a tanking role best and the damage dealers will always fill out a damage dealing role best. You seem to be of the opinion that I should have to follow a plate wearer the whole time which is garbage.

You are a rogue, in WoW a rogue has something better than range... Stealth, stealth is the ultimate anti range, not only can you close the distance without trouble you can close it unseen, and even then if they do get out of range you have skills that throw you back into stealth instantly as well as sprint to get accross the range no matter the distance quickly and effectively... combine them and you are crossing the range invisible at high speed.

Absolutely nothing I have stated has been in the context of a rogue, or with stealth in mind, this is all completely irrelevant. It's really starting to get to me that you are accusing me of relating everything exactly to the WoW model when all of your complaints are pertaining exactly to the WoW model. We are talking as to the relative speed and basic model of combat that we currently know WAR will have, stick to it.

So let me get this straight... ever class will have a sprint ability in the game... someone sprints at you, you sprint away. Does that make sense? Just making sure you see yourself typing... just checking.

First of all the model I was describing was the situation that would occur when a tank wasn't present. The sprint ability we have been shown drains action points, abilities cost action points so in the end I've already spent action points attacking, so when we both run out of action pints he'll have closed the gap because he couldn't spend any until he closed the gap, meanwhile any attack I do has to be done standing still while aslong as he stays at stick range, he can hurt me. Because I've sacrificed defense for range supposedly he's going to win still.

No we don't want to remove the idea of tanks from the game because fact of the matter is PVP tanks is a fantastic idea, the idea of a tank is not someone who does damage and holds agro. A tank is someone who takes blows and is not frail like a bright wizard. Thats why a big tanker class such as a Black Orc will have abilities to slow down and take advantage of people trying to pass him to get to his buddy the shaman... I am sure the other big melee classes whether they be the marauder using his claw mutation based attacks to slow down an attacker a dwarf knocking said attacker senseless with a giant hammer will also have similar abilities. You want tanker classes, you want them to take damage, because if you don't have abilities that force the damage then whats the damn point of having all that armor if you do no damage and are not a threat?

I don't want to remove tanks either. But if you read what I said in context you'd realize that I also don't want to be in a situation where I can't play without a tank. If I have to have a class balanced in the context of having a tank to defend me then I will be disabled as a competent independent fighter, which is silly. a Ranged class shouldn't have to have a tank anymore than a tank should have to have a dedicated healer.

Ranged classes give up defense for range, not damage, they give it up for utility not damage. You seem to be of the impression that giving up armor equals damage as a rogue, you wear leather, completely ignore the fact that your greatest defense and offense is the fact that you can come out of stealth and one-two shot a cloth wearer or did you forget that aspect of your class in order to prove your arguement? There will be no stealth in WAR BTW..

That's not been the model you've been describing so far. You've been stating that ranged classes should give up damage and defense for range. Range is a huge advantage, except when you factor in that any ranged class without a tank and reduced damage to compensate for range draws a lot of attention especially when they're frail. And again you relate back to WoW and patronize me again. You've done nothing in WoW that I haven't and you know nothing about WAR that I don't.

I'm going to ignore the next paragraph because again you've taken everything in the context of WoW rogues which was completely out of context to what I was saying, notedly in the manner of a very bitter and disgruntled WoW player.

The ranged class takes advantage of the tank, and the tank takes advantage of the ranged classes abilities. By protecting a ranged class you are granting yourself extra morale through his damage and also protecting him, you protecting him grants him morale to do more damage, your enemies when linking your abilities die faster and thusly you take less damage. Everything is linked in this game, teamwork IS A MUST to take advantage of the system. The movies that discredit what you are saying are out there, go take a look... you might not look foolish here. No its not slow, infact its the definition of teamwork, having a tank infront of you is teamwork and not only will it speed up the combat it actually makes both players way more efficient, why do you think premades tool pug players? I know I tooled pug tier 2+ players wearing pvp blues because my team worked as a team, people got healed, debuffs were cleansed etc, it made us all more effective.
That's all fine and dandy but I'd like to be a competant solo fighter like the tank will be. If you want class balance then for me to have to rely on a tank the whole time to stay alive the tank has to be in a position where he needs to have a healer to survive my blows, otherwise it's one sided. Keep in mind the tank can't sheid me from other ranged classes, meaning that if I do a lot of damage then I can potentially get served my own damage back, think how that's going to work out if a tank struggles under such blows.

And everything else you said is entirely in the context of WoW which you ironically keep reminding me, isn't this game, so I'm not going to respond to it, as it has no bearing on WAR.

[TaurenMoo]

You don't get it, you think on mins and maxes, you claim that I have said that ranged classes should be wielding pea shooters when I said that simply range is understated as an advantage, and in no way should a range class do much more than their melee counterparts, especially if their damage is capable of ignoring armor. Sorry but don't expect two shooting to happen and don't expect ranged classes to die with a poke...

That being said I have decided to try a different approach. So to start let me go ahead and try to clarify what you think. Please correct me and I can start from there.

1: 2 shooting will happen in order to prevent frail ranged classes from dieing to melee
2: Melee classes should rip frail ranged classes to shreds but at close range only
3: This is all balanced
4: Quick fights keep interest and battles can be fast paced and still strategic, to check does this comment refer to quick 2 shoot style combat you were refering to?

Please correct the statements with exactly what you mean...

My thoughts:

1: Ranged classes while frail will be able to take several a blow, through use of their abilities and the simple fact that having someone die in 2 blows not only takes the fun out of the game but also allows for no chance to counter or display skill.
2: Melee classes while not as frail have to deal with the fact that they are indeed what they are, melee classes. I want to further note that range is often understated in combat. And while I want to see melee classes playing a tank role by standing in the way of someone getting to a more frail support/ranged class, they should not be completely useless damage wise because they can take a hit, a combination of status effects, such as stuns snares and damage and innovative abilities should come into play.
3: I understand the need for ranged classes to cause damage but its a matter of finding balance and if a ranged class is capable of dealing enough damage to completely negate a melee class before they get to them, that is not balanced. At the same time I also want to say that the idea that a ranged class should not be completely spent from just using core abilities, again one of those wait and see what comes deals, but even the current movies of a goblin shaman shows a combination of damage spells and morale abilities.

And sorry if I sounded rude, sometimes I don't realize it.

[Aes]

1: 2 shooting will happen in order to prevent frail ranged classes from dieing to melee
2: Melee classes should rip frail ranged classes to shreds but at close range only
3: This is all balanced
4: Quick fights keep interest and battles can be fast paced and still strategic, to check does this comment refer to quick 2 shoot style combat you were refering to?


I don't expect ranged classes to constantly two shot all melee classes, they should certainly have the power to two shot each other before resistances, that's the sort of damage to survivability ratio the bright wizard and the magus should have. I think that two shotting will be possible because of a difference in skill or a bad judgment call.

For instance, a tank's selection of tactics may offer him to increase his armour rating at the cost of his magic resistance. If a tank slips up and after fighting a couple melee classes with class on taunts a bright wizard, the bright wizard then finds himself out of anyone's range including other ranged classes and he already has his tactic activated which increases his damage but increases all damage done to him, and he aso has a temporary damage buff from the warriorpreist nearby and full morale. In such a situation he could then launch a devastating attack on the tank and potentially wipe him out in a matter of seconds.

Likewise a tank might have a tactic activated to do the opposite and forgets to change it when a melee damage dealer approaches. The melee'er knows the tank is going to taunt him, so before he enters combat he activates his tactics which are best for killing tanks, because the tank has the wrong tactics activated it is possible for the melee'er to steam roll through him.

However when the tank has the appropriate weapons out and the right tactics activated, he may do a decent job of defending his allies and the fighting is even. And when the tank does everything right, but the damage dealers, expecting to take out the softer ranged and support classes have the wrong weapons equipped and the wrong tactics selected are poorly prepared to fight a tank and the tank is almost completely untouched.

Those are pretty extreme examples but that's the kind of variation I would expect in a player characters status. These are all non gear related properties that require planning skill and forethought to give you an advantage and it should allow you, if you are good, and your enemy slips up, to nuke him off the face of the earth in seconds.

As this pertains to range damage dealers, given that ranged damage dealers have to stand still to do their damage and the fact that another player being shot at could merely move out of range to where the caster would have to approach melee classes, the majority of the ranged damage dealers kills will be finding people who have left themselves open to a devestating attack, this should of course require the caster to leave himself vulnerable and use up a lot of a particular resource like morale and action points or any perhaps their third resource depending on what it is.

So to sum up I don't think two shotting should simply be average combat. But it should be possible, it should be situational and it should require planning and skill to pull off as described above, and given the nature of ranged classes, it'll more their style to pull off.

Where I think we differ is that I think that a ranged class should die in a couple of hard hits, and any more survivability they gain should be through consuming action points in evasive abilities and snares and possibly limited shields, that way they lose their damage dealing capability and it balances them out for one on one.

[Tauren]

I don't expect ranged classes to constantly two shot all melee classes, they should certainly have the power to two shot each other before resistances, that's the sort of damage to survivability ratio the bright wizard and the magus should have. I think that two shotting will be possible because of a difference in skill or a bad judgment call.

For instance, a tank's selection of tactics may offer him to increase his armour rating at the cost of his magic resistance. If a tank slips up and after fighting a couple melee classes with class on taunts a bright wizard, the bright wizard then finds himself out of anyone's range including other ranged classes and he already has his tactic activated which increases his damage but increases all damage done to him, and he aso has a temporary damage buff from the warriorpreist nearby and full morale. In such a situation he could then launch a devastating attack on the tank and potentially wipe him out in a matter of seconds.

Likewise a tank might have a tactic activated to do the opposite and forgets to change it when a melee damage dealer approaches. The melee'er knows the tank is going to taunt him, so before he enters combat he activates his tactics which are best for killing tanks, because the tank has the wrong tactics activated it is possible for the melee'er to steam roll through him.

However when the tank has the appropriate weapons out and the right tactics activated, he may do a decent job of defending his allies and the fighting is even. And when the tank does everything right, but the damage dealers, expecting to take out the softer ranged and support classes have the wrong weapons equipped and the wrong tactics selected are poorly prepared to fight a tank and the tank is almost completely untouched.

Those are pretty extreme examples but that's the kind of variation I would expect in a player characters status. These are all non gear related properties that require planning skill and forethought to give you an advantage and it should allow you, if you are good, and your enemy slips up, to nuke him off the face of the earth in seconds.

As this pertains to range damage dealers, given that ranged damage dealers have to stand still to do their damage and the fact that another player being shot at could merely move out of range to where the caster would have to approach melee classes, the majority of the ranged damage dealers kills will be finding people who have left themselves open to a devestating attack, this should of course require the caster to leave himself vulnerable and use up a lot of a particular resource like morale and action points or any perhaps their third resource depending on what it is.

So to sum up I don't think two shotting should simply be average combat. But it should be possible, it should be situational and it should require planning and skill to pull off as described above, and given the nature of ranged classes, it'll more their style to pull off.

Where I think we differ is that I think that a ranged class should die in a couple of hard hits, and any more survivability they gain should be through consuming action points in evasive abilities and snares and possibly limited shields, that way they lose their damage dealing capability and it balances them out for one on one.

Okay I see where you are going, question though is the character getting blown away because A: he did everything to make himself vulnerable, and B: because the bright wizard had enough moral to use an ultra powerful morale move? Because if so then okay I sorta see where you are going. But at the same time how often will a bright wizards morale be that high? From what I have seen morale seems to require constant fighting and the choice to use a several lower tier morale abilities or saving for a big one.

Additionally I also agree on how a wizard or other ranged class chooses to spend himself but at the same time I want to hope that melee classes have ways to close the distance, and not get there at the point where the wizard has ways to defend himself or escape... What is the time it takes to go from spent to capable again? and will the free shoots unhindered that a range class will get on a melee balance damage wise with HP and the fact that a melee class is going to have to close that range.

Lastly I have read/heard mention of object collision, thusly a character could literally block the way, and abilities will probably also play a part in it. I am more wondering about how a bright wizard will operate as far as spells? will his choice also damage his comrades? what about aoe spells? But other than that, clears up alot of things...

[Aggressor]

Well, I'd really like to see green fire implemented as more than a simple mind control. Such as a quickcast spell that changes allegiance of the target enemy. Imagine enemy caster indiscriminately AoEing the group of melee combatants ... boom green fire and instead of hurting your men he's dpsing his own. :D Or using warrior priest's auras to benefit your men.

[Oasis]

they give people cupcakes..mutated cupcakes...and pie..yum:p

[NotoriousMatt]

found this in the warrior priest forums, http://www.war-rvr.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=53&topic=1785.0
it has the list of abilities for magus among other classes.

[Ukirii]

i think you guys are right on a few things and wrong on some others. 2 shotting will happin. but not all the friggin time like in WoW. take a wicked geared BW and a poorly geared squig herder...2shot. i dont see a BW 2shoting a black orc anytime though. you guys forget this is war. wars arnt fought alone.everyone contributes to the effort. 1 BW isnt going to be able to waltz out there and kill 5 greenskins in 10 seconds. it just wont happin.

one other thing i found funny....your complaining and you played a rogue in wow....anyone else surprised???? not i. in this game....this god of games you wont have your stealth to hide behind now. yeh yeh yeh i know your rolling BW...blah blah..

point is this:
the game isnt out. there is no possible way to judge balance untill we get ALOT more info. but im just going off past games and what the devs are saying. this is war....think about it.
WoW sux everyone knows that. but WoW was once a rockin game. Mythic plans to do good where blizzard blew. nough said. and so far they are doing very well. so stop complaining, get some more chips and a mr pibb and let all that rage build up untill 2008 so you have a slight chance of beating me in combat....you wont, but you will be so jacked up on mr pibb you will keep coming back to die. :P

[Malvos]

All my experience with the current game says no class with 2 shot another class. Sorry. Fights are much longer then your used to. If you have to compare it to wow think of high end gladiator fights.

This doesn't mean people don't killed killed in under 5 seconds but thats due to a dog pile.

[Gemini]

point is this:
the game isnt out. there is no possible way to judge balance untill we get ALOT more info. but im just going off past games and what the devs are saying. this is war....think about it.
WoW sux everyone knows that. but WoW was once a rockin game. Mythic plans to do good where blizzard blew. nough said. and so far they are doing very well. so stop complaining, get some more chips and a mr pibb and let all that rage build up untill 2008 so you have a slight chance of beating me in combat....you wont, but you will be so jacked up on mr pibb you will keep coming back to die. :P


The devs said a standard 1v1 should take a good 30 seconds, I dunno what dev quote you are refering to. And no, Mythic is not trying to do correctly what Blizzard did wrong, they are making their own game, completely seperate from WoW. I refer you to the famous Beatles/Led Zepplin quote from Paul.

[Fluks]

The devs said a standard 1v1 should take a good 30 seconds, I dunno what dev quote you are refering to. And no, Mythic is not trying to do correctly what Blizzard did wrong, they are making their own game, completely seperate from WoW. I refer you to the famous Beatles/Led Zepplin quote from Paul.30s sounds just about right to me. :) They said that in a podcast didnt they? You dont happen to know which number it was?

[Wyrmtongue]

FLINGRAT FIRE
Deals moderate damage to your target



Although the idea of throwing a flaming rodent at your target is somewhat appealing, it's actually called "Fling Red Fire"

:)