Black Orcs mixed signals

[Daris]

now I don't know if anyoen else has noticed but in several videos Paul bernett has stated that Tanks will focus thier DPS on weakening opponents, while Mythic has also stated that the Blorc will be mostly DPS with tanking abilities....so anyone have any idea which to trust?

[Gorge]

Why can't they do both?

[Daris]

because you can't be mostly DPS then have your DPS centered around weakening opponent it doesnt make sense

[Gorge]

I guess I don't understand your question then. All I know is that the Black Orc can deal and take a good bit of damage. I don't think the specifics have been expounded on yet.

[Aquinas]

I guess I don't understand your question then. All I know is that the Black Orc can deal and take a good bit of damage. I don't think the specifics have been expounded on yet.

No, but we have seen some of the Black Orcs moves.

[Aramyn]

because you can't be mostly DPS then have your DPS centered around weakening opponent it doesnt make sense

Have you played the game yet? You can't just go around saying the can's and cannot's of a class if you havent played it yet, especially while in its in early beta.

Also, the two statements do not contradict each other. A Black Orc could be used to weaken the opponent, and that's where the majority of his DPS comes from.

[Daris]

meh maybe I just misinterpretted the sources as saying it has alot of static DPS

[Leary]

In most MMO's, you generally have one class that can debuff better than anyone else, and someone who can out DPS anyone else. Sometimes they can do a bit of both, but not better than the one that specializes in said skill. If that makes sense...

[Krulltak]

The Black Orc, from what we know so far is:

- Heavily armored, and not easy to kill

- Uses a series of comboes involving debuffs and stuns, and focuses on disabling one enemy at a time.

- After target is disabled, Black Orc may folllow up with a high damage attack, depending on what state the target is in.

Basically, the high DPS of the Black Orc comes from his special attacks he uses AFTER he's disabled the enemy first. But of course, because of balance, the Choppa, being the greenskin melee DPS class, will, on average, do more damge than a Black Orc.

[Garthilk]

now I don't know if anyone else has noticed but in several videos Paul bernett has stated that Tanks will focus thier DPS on weakening opponents, while Mythic has also stated that the Blorc will be mostly DPS with tanking abilities....so anyone have any idea which to trust?I think you are working with some preconceived notion about what DPS is, and what tanking is. Just because they said, a career has some tanking abilities and DPS, doesn't mean they are the best in either or both. So much is going to change in between now and release, getting hung up on some verbiage about DPS and tanking, is superfluous.

[Daris]

I think you are working with some preconceived notion about what DPS is, and what tanking is. Just because they said, a career has some tanking abilities and DPS, doesn't mean they are the best in either or both. So much is going to change in between now and release, getting hung up on some verbiage about DPS and tanking, is superfluous.


DPS is a static on hit thing thast can be raised or lowered through buffs and Debuffs, what I talk about is static DPS your ability to do massive damage in a single attack that doesnt have anything to do with debuffs or combo-ing, DPS classes are built to use static and controlled DPS

Tanking is ones ability to take damage for lengthy periods while throwing damage back at the opponent

[Kinthral]

The Black Orc's DPS won't be higher than a primary DPS'. We can tank well, but rely on attack chains and debuffs moreso than other classes to keep both our tanking and DPS effective.

Almost every class has a unique combat system. Compare the Greenskin Black Orc (attack chains and debuffs to hold aggro, possible DPS-oriented) to the Dwarf Ironbreaker ("rising" aggro as the fight goes on, possibly mitigation-oriented

From the careers section of WarhammerOnline.com (http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/armiesofWAR/):

The Black Orc Specialty
The Black Orc’s fighting style might best be described as brawling. He attacks with all the tools available – fists, feet, elbows, shoulders, and assorted other spiky bits, including weapons. His various attacks are designed to jar, disorient, or otherwise disable his enemy. Each of these conditions leaves the enemy vulnerable to yet more punishment. This comes in the form of other attacks which deliver additional effects based on the target’s condition. The Black Orc’s use of these tools revolves around the philosophy that the best defense is indeed a good offense.

Playing as a Black Orc
Combat for a Black Orc revolves around engaging and defeating enemies one at a time, while weathering the fire of their allies. As a front line fighter, the Black Orc is well equipped to withstand the attacks of his enemies. Though protected by shield and armor, and possessing a hearty constitution, his greatest strength lies in his ability to disable his primary opponent. His use of jarring blows and unexpected attacks allow the Black Orc to exploit the openings they create to reduce the enemy’s ability to fight back.
The Ironbreaker Specialty
Nobody holds a grudge like a Dwarf, and no dwarf is dwarfier than the Ironbreaker. Every blow struck against him or his allies serves to fuel his ardor. This in turn influences his every action – the greater the grudge born against a particular foe, the greater the effect of the Ironbreaker’s attacks. The means by which the Ironbreaker exacts justice vary according to his choice of attacks, but one thing is constant: The only escape from his vengeance is death!

Playing as an Ironbreaker
As an Ironbreaker, your goal is to get between your friends and your foes and use your defensive abilities to absorb and deflect attacks. If you can’t immediately claim a foe’s attention, your grudge bonuses begin to make you a problem foes can’t ignore as you grow more and more potent in your defense of your allies. Obviously, Ironbreakers truly shine in groups but even solo they are quite capable as long as they can get close enough to wear down foes with their axe or hammer.
As you can see, both rely on focusing on a single target until that target is dead. From the abilities we've seen (mostly of the Black Orc - check out http://www.war-rvr.net/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=29&catid=17) the Black Orc will be the offensive/debuffer type hybrid, and the Ironbreaker will be the more MMO-standard hold aggro and not take a lot of damage tank, although we haven't seen too many of the Ironbreaker's skills yet.

[Ken]

To me the Black Orc seems pretty straight-forward and simple. I think the only thing that threw me off at first was that it came off as a rogue-tank. Rogue meaning lots of quick attacks, yet being able to take a huge amount of damage like a tank. And taunt and all the other tanking abilities...

But after I started to process putting those two almost-seemingly-different things together I think I have a good idea of how he's going to be.

I don't see him as a DPS class per-say, but more like... pretty much cut and paste from the career description. If you let him get all his combos off, he can be pretty deadly. Dazes and stuns, and taunting players. You do NOT want to take your eyes off this guy. He will bring down the heat no doubt. Like it won't be because his "headbutt" does 12874981273981723 damage. But it'll be because his "headbutt" is followed by an "elbow jab" followed by a "gut punch" followed by a pretty good punch to the face. Then a knee to the groin. Then choppa in your stomach.

I really can't wait to play a Black Orc in a group...I mean with taunt and all that. As of now, or recently they may have already changed it...who knows. There was this higher level morale ability that dazed enemies around you, making them move 50% slower. One of the higher up Career Advancements in the "defensive tree" was... Whenever you block it increases party members morale around you. Haha and the best part of that was the name of the "talent" was "Dat Wuz Awesome"

Granted all of this could have already been changed, or going to be tweaked. But that is definitely laying down some ideas of how the Black Orc will be...

[versuvius]

i like the way youv called it a blork

[Ken]

i like the way youv called it a blork

Hehe I'm confused on what you mean and who that's directed to...

[Dante]

From the pictures I've seens of the Black Orcs skills, most of them are builders which deal weak or moderate damage. By using builders, you'll opens the target up for a combo on which you can land a finishing move, which is a moderate or high damage skill with a little "sumthin' sumthin'" like a 25% armor decrease and such. I'm thinking thats were the DPS we're talking about comes from.

[Gemini]

I see the black orc as sort of similar to the guild wars assassin. They chain together attacks that both do damage and cause negitive effects to the opponent, which in turn allow for even more attack with even more negitive effects. Obviously the black orcs less agile, graceful and more, well... orcish. Strong, brutal, built like a steroid-pumped rhino with a choppa. But I expect the attack chains to be somewhat similar, but probably more indepth and, well... just downright cooler, in my eyes.

[Henryboy]

again anything is speculation, but I imagine there will be a paper rock scissors element to this game on some level. I don't think the heavy melee classes (black orc, ironbreaker etc) will be mage/priest killers. Instead I think they will be light melee killers. In other words, I can totally see black orcs wtfpwning some witchhunters and hammerers. I picture a battle going like this.

Witchhunter charges goblin shaman
Black orc comes to shaman's rescsue, snares/stuns witchhunter
shaman runs away, then both black orc and shaman obliterate the witchhunter.

So black orcs will be shamans survival line. That's a fun role to play too IMO!

[Vrugar]

So jus' remember den'. If ya let da big ladz 'it ya too much 'dere likey to hit yer one Right in the Jibbles. (http://www.war-rvr.net/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=99999999&page=inline&id=826&catid=17&limitstart=30)

[Odan]

Here's a link from the Choppa boards to a posting from someone who played at the NYC Comic Con: http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=520538&topic=33840820

It gives some interesting insight into the current, early beta, mechanics of how tanks and melee dps function. To sum it up, in overly broad and sweeping speculation:

- Tanks are real tanks. Melee DPS can't break through your tank if they are alone.
- This tanking ability comes with a cost in DPS. If alone, you can't drop the melee DPS either.

[Black Hammer]

That's really great to read. Ironbreaker vs. Choppa becomes a huge war of attrition until Engineers/Runepriests or Shamans/Squig Herders come into the mix. That sounds like good team-based PvP, not just a one on one free for all. There does seem to be confusion as to what abilities belong to a Black Orc and what abilities belong to a Choppa. I thought that Black Orc's had taunts and combo chains and that Choppa's had berserker-style abilities. Maybe they both have taunts? Time will tell.

[Hyrus]

Typo, no doubt.

[Black Hammer]

He did say his character was wearing relatively light armor and dual wielding... it's hard to tell but I imagine he could have been confused. It just doesn't sound anything like the description:

Playing as a Choppa
Playing a Choppa is straight forward. Get in the fight, and stay there as long as you can without getting yourself killed. The longer you’re in a fight, the more your morale builds and the more berserk you become. This makes your attacks more powerful and unlocks new devastating abilities. However, the use of these abilities depletes your morale and thus reduces your combat strength. You must decide whether it’s more important to maintain your berserker frenzy or unleash a powerful attack upon your foe. You must also remember that you are less well armored than your Black Orc cousins, and generally less durable. The fighting itself may be simple, but strategy is required to reach and maintain your peak effectiveness.That sounds like the rage mechanic in WoW, except that the higher your "rage bar" gets the more damage you do regularly. This is in contrast to the Black Orcs dependence on a combat chain to do decent damage and debuff. Something doesn't smell right, and I'm not sure who's wrong. Maybe it's Mythic, maybe they used the wrong skin. :p

[Gemini]

While I find it more than likely the guy just messed up his class names for the greenskins, I also don't see why choppas cant have taunts/attack chains and a rage bar? Just less dependence on chains, less powerful taunts, ect ect, so its not just a more offensive black orc. Also, according to HammerWiki, we already know of at least one choppa taunt. http://war.gamewikis.org/wiki/Choppa scroll down and look for the skill labled "Taunting Strike"

[Smashin]

Right,well i have now searched both Youtube and Google video for videos of any greenskin class footage and have found nothing! :( anyone got some links of Black Orc footage or Choppa?

- Smashin

[Cats]

He was just confused, definately playing a Black Orc

http://war.gamewikis.org/wiki/Black_Orc

Black Orc Abilities right there

Compared to http://war.gamewikis.org/wiki/Choppa

so, as you can see, in the way he described the abilities, it was a Black Orc

i'm pumped...

[Smashin]

It seems from a WoW players point of view that Choppas are like mail wearing rogues minus the stealth and Black orcs are unstoppable killing machines!! muhahha xD

Smashin killz da choppas easyz! *Grunts*

- Smashin

[Krulltak]

It seems from a WoW players point of view that Choppas are like mail wearing rogues minus the stealth and Black orcs are unstoppable killing machines!! muhahha xD

Smashin killz da choppas easyz! *Grunts*

- Smashin


Which is not how it will be.

A Choppa is a light tank with versatility in armor from light to moderate, and starts out with moderate damage, but builds up to extreme damage.

A Black Orc is heavily armored, and focusses on a single target, weakening him and wearing him out with, supposedly, stuns and snares and other forms of debuffing. When the target is weakened, he is easy pickings for allies like a Choppa, or the Black Orc can chooose to finish the target off with heafty damage attacks if the conditions of favorable.

There is a balance to be achieved.

[Cats]

most likely in pvp though, a black orc's abilities will be mostly debuffing, as the damage relative to the cost of the ability will most likely do less damage than a choppa during normal fighting conditions. that isn't a bad thing though, as black orcs will basically be pvp tanks used for utility rather than racking up kills.

i'm sure there are different specialization you can go toward, but to be truly effective, you must play as a team, it seems, in this game.

though, none of us have actually played it, and everything i've mentioned it purely speculation

[versuvius]

mehehhe quit yer in and i hate stunties...them designers really have a sense of humour

[Steel*Faith]

Daris called the Balck Orc a Blorc lol.

[ExplativeDeleted]

I don't think we can really be too sure about this until some beta people say something we're all shooting in the dark

[versuvius]

and a dwarf orc...a dorc! and a dwarf elf a dwelf and an orc elf a a a err...erc!

[Krulltak]

and a dwarf orc...a dorc! and a dwarf elf a dwelf and an orc elf a a a err...erc!


There was an orc warboss by the name of Dork once..........I think he briefly controlled a dwarf hold.

[versuvius]

really? wow...thats nice to know

[Gollo]

Easiest way to elaborate for me, is by comparing to CoH... Think of Black Orc as tanker. DPS=Medium Defence=High... Think of Choppa as Scrapper. DPS=High Defence=Medium

Make sense to you?

[Krulltak]

Easiest way to elaborate for me, is by comparing to CoH... Think of Black Orc as tanker. DPS=Medium Defence=High... Think of Choppa as Scrapper. DPS=High Defence=Medium

Make sense to you?


It is not that simple. If you MUST reference other games, a Choppa is more like a Brute with less armor. He starts out with moderate damage and works his way up to uber damage.

The Black Orc is a tank, of course, but that is the only relationship to the Tanker of CoH. His damage won't be as high as a Choppa, but he...........gahhhh you know what I'm tired of repeating the same thing over fifty times.

[versuvius]

the black orc is the meat shield that that has an axe on a spring loaded death arm

[Trog]

Well, maybe their DPS starts low with maneuvers that hinder an opponent and lowers their opponents defences and over time they build momentum, having a kind of snowball effect as their DPS grows.

That encompasses both, but again, like lots of people have said... who knows... it's so early.

But I can see a Black Orc charging someone and bashing them to the ground hindering their ability to fight, breaking a shield, disarming them so they can't parry, dazing them with a slam from their shield, hitting them with the pommel of their sword, maybe a knee, a couple cuts, etc.

Just ... almost like they'd have debuffs they'd be throwing down at the start so their damage (and the damage of their friends) starts to rise.

But ya... who knows. :)

[Nerve_V_]

Before you read this post and don't understand, Sunder is an ability in WoW that lowers the targets armor.




IN MY OPINION AND FROM FOOTAGE

I believe that the Black Orc "Tank" is the "Tank" that goes, "Oh, the boss is under 20%? Cool! I can decrease his armor by 50% from having a full morale bar."

He can soak some damage, maybe an offtank kind of deal, but also allows a TON of more Dps, maybe for just him or maybe for everybody, to open up kill said target.

Just my interpretation